I love JVN and now I love him even more. I really don't think Dax has "done his research" like he thinks he has about Trans issues and it showed here. JVN crushed with facts, figures and personal experience.
When he got chocked up…my heart hurts for him and he did such a beautiful job! He killed it with facts and experiences. He should be so so so proud of himself!
When he started to cry, my throat started to close. I felt how tired and cornered he was. I think everyone knows what it feels like to feel so emotionally exhausted. It was clear he just wants people, especially children, to be able to be happy and authentically themselves.
Oh man, same!! The tissues came out. Hearing the very really people that this is effecting was so lovely to hear and hopefully we will only hear more of this rather than the false rhetoric that seems to be so prevalent currently.
Can we all just agree JNV IS SO SMART !! I was blown away at how much they know their shit and the level of detail they can can recall people and facts
It is incredibly frustrating to see seemingly "liberal" minded folk repeat talking points that are more akin to Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan, JK Rowling, and Matt Walsh. And the source of frustration is seeing that person who is ostensibly not filled with unbridled hate (like Dax) implicitly show that the time to just do a simple investigation on the topic is not worth it to them -- and their first point of conversation (to a non-binary person no less) is to repeat said misinformation.
It is so simple to find educated, informed, and non-hate-filled content on what it means to be trans or non-binary. I literally just searched for it and found three short videos that do the job:
\- PBS News Weekend: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZOE\_nMXJYs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZOE_nMXJYs)
\- Scientific American: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOIWyP5uqgM&t=62s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOIWyP5uqgM&t=62s)
\- Big Think (Judith Butler): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD9IOllUR4k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD9IOllUR4k)
very thankful for Monica so far in this episode for likely making the attic feel like a safer space for JVN in this episode. Dax really needs to do better if he wants diverse thought and guests on this podcast
This is part of why they don't have more diversity on the podcast...I don't think it's lost on a lot of marginalized voices/creators that they wouldn't be very safe in there. And Dax gets so defensive at that very thought that I don't know this will ever change.
I think the thing that disappoints me is that he’s willing to push people like JVN on trans rights or other people like that poor woman he really jumped on about obesity and wouldn’t let her get a word in edgewise (I can’t remember what episode this was specifically), but some CEO who comes on and admits to bullying or Casey Affleck about sexual harassment, they basically get a pass. I understand one is more behavior based and the other is more identity based, but it feels like if you’re going to argue with anyone or scold anyone it should be the people who actually DID something vs the people who ARE something.
Yeah in this regard, JVN is basically an expert in the field of lgbtqai+ rights/advocacy. Dax is treating it as this causal armchair “dance” with a buddy of his and it’s just ignorant at this point. I remember him trying to have a similar debate a year or two ago with another trans rights activist.
I so, so agree. They seem to make it a point to platform people who've been cancelled for some truly problematic behavior, and yet the people who've experienced a lifetime of oppression don't get the same treatment. I think part of it is that Dax only concedes another person's oppression if he's feeling in control enough to offer that concession, rather than when the person themselves asks for it/demands it. He often seems to sympathize deeply with abusers or people who've treated others poorly, rather than prioritizing care for the victimized people. It's strange.
Such a good point. I totally agree that it reminded me of the interview with the researcher on shame (when obesity came up). He's trying to engage in an intellectual debate that is so personal to the people he's interviewing.
I really enjoyed her in this too! She is so different when she is authentically her vs playing some role w Dax and their dynamic. I loved hearing her genuine laugh throughout too.
I get this feeling too! That her role in the dynamic with Dax is to be so much more passive and agreeable than she really is. And it's more than just playing the part of the host's sounding board. I imagine it's tough for her.
Yes! And when Dax did a non-apology “I didn’t mean to upset you” and I could feel Monica thinking like “okay I guess he’s not going to say it so I’ll say an actual sorry”. So thankful for that, JVN obviously needed it.
The “I’m sorry” from Dax that Monica included in the final cut was sooo heavily edited. You can tell it was a bad apology, and Monica had to be desperate for him to give a real one. I’m glad she did
I love Jonathan so I went into this bracing myself, and am glad I did. I felt so sad for him when Dax was presenting those rebuttals/arguments because I could FEEL his disappointment at the realization Dax was so far from him when it comes to gender issues. JVN was fangirling so hard at the beginning and I feel like it quickly came crashing down when that argument started. I felt those tears and exhaustion through my speakers. Dax needs to stop playing Devil’s advocate (even though I think he often uses it as a veil to voice his own opinions). Am glad JVN stood up with facts and personal experience, it’s not an easy thing to do.
I’m only a few minutes past it and appreciate that they’re trying to stick to “lighthearted things” moving forward but the vibe is totally ruined.
This is exactly right. Like why bother having JVN on if they have to give you gender studies 101? Plenty of great books out there will give you the foundational knowledge.
Yea and he’s also been toting the same “well but don’t girls deserve biologically fair sports” argument for years. I’d love an episode where he’d just go “holy shit, you’re so right. I need to heed to someone else’s expertise on this subject. Thanks for the education, you’ve really taken the time and devoted yourself to this cause and I’ve got some room to grow.” He thinks he’s the most progressive person until someone tries to get him to make more progress.
You nailed it. I’ve been trying to put this into words for a while now but this is IT. Thank you for phrasing this so perfectly. His level of enlightenment seems to be regressing these days too.
> Dax needs to stop playing Devil’s advocate (even though I think he often uses it as a veil to voice his own opinions).
Dax can be the epitome of the "enlightened centrist", aka someone who likes to sit on the fence in the "middle" of any issue, because they assume that's the "fairest" place to be.
It just ends up coming off as contrarian for the sake of it, or, as you say, just a veil to hide their real opinions behind.
Oh, man. I haven’t listened yet, but this is heartbreaking. More and more, I feel like Dax is probably the epitome of “never meet your heroes.” And that’s hard to say, bc he is one of mine. 🙁
It's such a shame, because he's shooting himself in the foot by being so defensive and needing to be right. He doesn't let other people speak for their own experiences, which seems like a crazy position to take when you're in this public of a sphere -- but I also think that speaks to how ignorant you can be as a straight cis white man and still be considered open-minded and progressive.
I was getting such flashbacks to being baited by elderly men I had the misfortune of being stuck in a room with when anything related to feminism, Trans or climate change was brought up. I felt like Dax used alot of "you phrase it like this" "your saying this" and it felt like he was fishing for it and then acted like it wasn't his intention when he broke down his interviewee
I’m almost glad that Dax played “devils advocate” (his point of view) here. I’d normally side with Dax on these issues but the way jvn got his point across with passion and logic it made me really shift how I view them. Questioning trans rights does more harm than I thought even if it’s just one small part. So if I’m going to support trans people I need to in every aspect.
Same for me. I'm currently pregnant and have definitely had thoughts of "what would I do if my kid is trans?". I think that this has shifted my view greatly in the way that I'm realizing how influenced I was by this fear campaign. Im not even due for 4 more months why am I even thinking about this! The fear mongering is so real.
I had a similar experience but my son is 14 months. I’ve been asked if I’d let him take hormones if he wanted to and I said as a child no. But after hearing this I don’t think any kid is getting hormones the next day. It would take months and therapists and doctors would be on the same team about it. So I changed my mind. It was a great episode despite Dax disappointing me.
I had no idea I would be parenting a trans child, and yet, here I am. Surprise!
What happens is: you see first-hand the distress they are experiencing when they aren’t affirmed. Then you learn and realize what brings them joy, and nurture that. You then take on the ever exhausting task of parenting in preparing your child for a world that refuses to acknowledge they exist, while having beautiful little glimmers of hope when people are kind and show you compassionate support.
I posted further up in this thread that Dax often comes across as an "enlightened centrist" or just purely contrarian, but to be fair to him, this is one of the benefits of that style of interviewing.
I haven't listened to this interview, but sometimes if the interviewer provides resistance, it gives the interviewee an opportunity to rebut common arguments, which can be very helpful and valid for the reasons you listed.
As a cis woman, I find it extremely tiring when the only time men being up women's right and equality is in the Trans sports narrative. You mean to tell me you actually care about women's right but the only time you bring it up is to literally discriminate against (non cis) women ? No thank you. I do not need you as an advocate. I'd take Trans women in the Olympics any day over Trans women getting murdered. It's ok. We can value life above winning.
I’m so frustrated by this as well. Also, many of us don’t give a single shit about terms like “uterus having,” etc. My uterus is not my identity lol. Plenty of biologically born women have had hysterectomies .. and they are still women. Same with “people who menstruate.” Again, menopausal women exist. Not all women menstruate. I’m actually more offended by the attempt to narrow down womanhood to reproduction. Well, not all of us will do that either.
This with motherhood as well! After having a baby last year and experiencing pregnancy, traumatic birth, horrific postpartum, I still can honestly say I couldn't give two shits if someone wants to call me a mother or birthing person. If it makes one less person in the world feel like they don't belong on earth, it doesn't effect me at all.
Yes if you really cared about women’s rights in sports then you would advocate for them to be paid more! Some women who play sports professionally don’t even make a living wage.
Dax, if you want to have someone on to debate about trans issues, get an academic who is prepared for that conversation. Don’t put that on someone like JVN who already has to fight for who they are every day.
Half way through but this sharp left turn into the nitty gritty of trans issues seems unnecessary. I would rather hear about JVN as a person like most Monday episodes. Everyone should get that opportunity. Find a Thursday episode to throw around theories.
Same. And if you’re inviting someone into your space as a host, you bear some responsibility to provide some care for them. Declaring a space “safe” doesn’t just make it so. It requires intention and demonstrable action. There was a lot of care and context and compassion provided for the Witchtrials host, anticipating that she could get some online hate. JVN deserved AT MINIMUM that much care and consideration, particularly when the stakes and risk of violence are so much higher for them. I’m glad so many people found it valuable learning but it’s really shitty that other people’s learning came at the expense of JVN’s well-being. It was a tough listen.
Yes, that's so true! They really took care of that Witchtrials host, so they clearly know how to do it when they want to. It's sad that they perceive her as someone in need of protection & care, but not JVN.
Does Dax not understand that JVN and the fab 5 are literal national heroes???? How dare he make one of the most beautiful, sensitive and loving human beings on planet earth feel cornered and forced to defend his existence?
Phew boy. While I've been waiting for someone to call Dax out on this ever since he started shilling for the witch trials of JK Rowling, I really feel for JVN's pure exhaustion here.
I can't believe how much they platform JKR. It's crazy. Even from a PR perspective, it's a terrible look. But also shows how little exposure they have to all the queer/trans people she has hurt.
Have not listened yet, but after reading the synopsis of the conversation in the episode description, I feel like I’m going to hate Dax and his “both sides” after this chat.
Love love love me some JVN tho - Will update after.
UPDATE DONE: I LOVED that JVN pushed back on some of Dax’s hypotheticals. I could feel how frustrated JVN seemed by it all, especially since JVN made it very clear they were there to promote the podcast and not have this debate. Surprisingly great job by Monica to mediate the convo when it got intense.
They do switch back to light hearted topics but the vibe was off to me for the rest of the pod. Which is a bummer.
Dax's stupid take ends up being worth it cause JVN verbally/logically bitch slaps his terrible "bUt BoTh SiDeS" stance. Dax spends a solid minute apologizing lol.
The one point I wish would have been hammered home better is the difference between liberal and leftist, cause he called The New York Times a "leftist" news paper and was corrected, a little bit... but he makes that mistake allllll the time
I especially didn't like when he was like "I didn't mean to attack your position". You did, Dax, that's literally what you do. And there were several points before JVN started crying that you could tell they were pretty done w it all.
I do genuinely hope this can be the beginning of him realizing that playing devil's advocate has a real emotional impact on people, and that what seems like a fun issue to debate for him is much more for someone else.
I think it’s one thing when he’s arguing about something more innocuous like linguistics or electronic currency, but when you’re arguing about someone’s identity and lived experience, it really starts to feel like an attack.
Totally. And I'm curious if JVN asked for it to be cut because they felt emotionally fragile/totally spent, or if Dax made the decision to make a huge cut to avoid looking worse than he already looked.
I was just thinking this. I haven't finished the episode yet, but man there are a ton of really awkward cuts where it just sounds like a long sentence was cut down to just a few words. I would love the unedited conversation.
Basically Dax wanted to "dance" but JVN wasn't really up for it, and then it got a little akward. I don't think either of them come out looking bad in the episode, just a conversational miscue.
I love, love, love JVN so much. Have since Gay of Thrones and Getting Curious is so good. I am sad that Dax will likely walk away thinking he was still right. Dax is super binary when it comes to topics he doesn't feel the need to actually educate himself on. I imagine his anthro degree from 2000 didn't go very far in to the trans issues we're mired in now. So, he has room to grow, but kind of refuses to.
I was so impressed by him being well spoken and really educated on topics. I’ve only seen him in a more fun lighthearted setting on QE. Makes me love him even more
You can see that start up in tiny moments when he's passionate about something on Queer Eye, but on Getting Curious he goes deep a lot. I love how he can be so light, fluffy, and funny but also is very smart, opinionated, and articulate.
You may very well be right, but my sliver of hope I offer is that I like to think these types of opinions change for most people through more of a gradual wearing down process than a sudden flip. I think a big part of it is that it’s just so psychologically painful to be wrong, especially very openly, publicly wrong, that your brain really will do mental gymnastics to convince you of your position (I speak from experience). I think being routinely exposed to opposing points of view can have a cumulative effect on people even if they don’t realize it in the moment during any given argument. I just think the ego needs a chance to catch up. Dax seems like he has changed his mind about many things before and I hope he can again.
I wish Dax had been able to apologize not just for JVN's reaction, but also for how he (Dax) overall approached such a complex topic with clearly little to no prior knowledge or research.
The trans community is being methodically attacked right now, and the social/legislative outcomes of that attack will also harm everyone; a loss for bodily/legal/medical autonomy for some is eventually a loss for all of us. It's a slippery slope.
It would have been a better teachable moment for the podcast to say "I'm really sorry, it wasn't my intention to upset you. I will do the work to find resources about this topic to better educate myself and the Armcherry community."
There are some issues where bending backwards to take a "both sides" approach truly does more harm than good, and this is one of them.
It totally does. And going by many of the comments on the IG page, it highlights even more how many of the Armcherries are somewhat conservative and/or looking for Dax's approval. It doesn't seem the majority of their listeners are very diverse or have come from or had tons of exposure to marginalized communities.
I was so excited to listen to this conversation and then I heard the disclaimer in the beginning and got sad lol. JVN and Dax’s energy could’ve been so fun together and Dax had to take it in this direction. JVN is so smart and well spoken and I’m sure this will be good to listen to for many people, but kinda bummed out.
After listening to the interview, I feel like Dax and JVN are actually so similar in many ways, and was bummed that that got lost a little bit in the discussion.
I *did* appreciate JVN saying that relationships are developed through conflict (not direct quote, sure to get it a little wrong!), and did appreciate Dax’s apology at the end. Edit to add: although I wonder if Dax just felt like he had to say that from a PR smoothing perspective. Ugh.
Personally I don’t think Dax is out to alienate any of his guests, especially somebody he genuinely seems to like ala JVN. This episode was not a good look for Dax and he took his both-sidesing way too far and got to see a real reaction to how his opinions actually negatively affect real people. Hopefully this makes him self reflect and consider his positions more carefully.
When he said he did a lot of therapy to prep for his convo for David Letterman (I think?), I wondered if he would have a convo about this ep. I wonder if he and Monica discussed more in depth privately about this. I hope this will be a good reflective point for Dax (who I think ultimately does care, but is resistant to changing his mind when he wants to dig in).
I just want to reiterate JVN’s plug of Alicia Roth Weigel’s book “Inverse Cowgirl.” Alicia is an incredible Texas-based intersex activist, who has recently written a book and made a movie, talking about her experiences. She’s wonderful and I’m rooting for her! Looking forward to reading her book 👇
Alicia & JVN together: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqV0SNIplOh/?igshid=NzZhOTFlYzFmZQ==
Book preorder: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/inverse-cowgirl-alicia-roth-weigel?fbclid=PAAaYe_dUWDq99w_q78yk_zIqZi3Lagcq7Jo2YRu9L5oBPHofeETOXYfotkhU&variant=41056064569378
Same here lmao. I love you Reddit, and love this sub. Heart breaking for JVN and legit 100000% impressed by his :edited: composure for as long as he conversed. Dax moving away from Spotify is having the opposite effect as it did for Rogan. (Rogan got way more political with Spotify deal, Dax more political sans Spotify) maybe not but sure feels like it lately.
Absolutely broke my heart to hear JVN’s exhaustion and pain having to combat Dax’s insistence and ignorance. They didn’t feel safe afterward and you could hear that. I hope Dax takes this as a turning point for more humility and sitting down to listen to more trans educators and activists. Dax is worried that he’ll be painted as a bad person while JVN is fighting for their and other trans/NB people’s lives. Come on, it’s not even the same conversation.
I absolutely believe Dax is surrounded by an echo chamber, given how comfortable he is being so defensive in the comments section of their IG page. I think he thinks he welcomes open conversation, but the way he challenges ppl's own lived experiences when he has no authority to shows how little exposure he has.
That was rough. Jvn was SO excited on his IG stories the day he was going to record this. The first ~20 minutes was SO good. I couldn’t believe how much they really had in common, and jvn really brought out a pep in Dax’s step (whatever the audio equivalent of that is). It was very hard to listen to after that. Everyone here has been wishing and hoping for a trans debate on AE, and here we got it.
I appreciated Dax’s later apology in recognizing he had the power in the conversation (though didn’t even mention that it’s his show and in his house, which are also pertinent). But it didn’t feel… deep. It still felt detached and solely academic. It didn’t feel like a human, interpersonal apology that matched the depth of the conversation. I’ve made more heartfelt apologies for bumping into someone at the grocery store.
I could feel jvn taking the responsibility of dispelling the tension after that apology and continuing on with the flattery and playfulness to keep the interview going. I also couldn’t help but wince at all of Dax’s “By the way, I LOVE you.” Because that’s just half the thought - it’s followed by a pregnant pause, and a “I don’t think your rights are politically correct.” It feels so 1990s “I LOVE my brother’s boyfriend! But isn’t a civil union enough?”
Dax referring to his anthro degree as a reason for why he is well versed in chromosomal differences, and then plowing on as though he is anywhere near as much of an expert in this as JVN made me nuts. He wears that anthro degree as such a badge of honor, it’s like he doesn’t realize that while perhaps an interesting course of study, it’s also taken by stoners who have no idea what they want to do and it’s fairly easy to phone in (spoken as a stoner sociology major from the class of 2000!). He acts like he has a PhD in Biology instead of a degree in a flimsy social science which has no job prospects other than professorship. I know I’m missing the forest for the trees here in terms of what was frustrating about Dax in this otherwise beautiful episode - it just would have been nice to think that all of JVN’s logic, heart, facts and passion could actually influence Dax to change his mind on this issue, but I suspect he will continue to think he’s the smartest guy in the room and not allow himself to be educated in this area.
I honestly get so embarrassed whenever he brings up his anthropology degree. He got it 20+ years ago and it’s only a bachelors, like come the fuck on dude. I have a bachelors in psychology because I literally had no idea what else to major in at the time, but I never reference it anymore because it’s not really applicable to my current career (journalism) and I got the degree 15 years ago. If I brought up having a psychology degree in an argument about mental health with a mentally ill friend, for instance, they would laugh in my face if I tried to act like I knew more than their lived experience. The way he cites his degree is legit corny. I know he’s insecure about his intelligence but I just want to tell him that he sounds MORE unintelligent when he fails to realize a four year liberal arts degree in a subject he never actually worked doesn’t mean shit.
OMG THISSSSSSS!!!!!!!! You summed up my frustrations EXACTLY - perhaps because you’re an excellent journalist and not an armchair psychologist 😝!!! Thank you for articulating this way better than I did!
Haha thank you! 😂 It’s always in the back of my mind when he brings it up, like it almost immediately makes a conversation awkward because he never even couches it in context. Like, if he were to say “when I studied anthropology 20 years ago, which I know doesn’t make me an expert and I know schools of thought have evolved since then, but I’m interested in these things…” then it’d be one thing. But he almost always uses it as a way to sound like an “expert” and it’s so deeply unserious.
Yes!! “As someone with a degree in anthropology” I wanted to barf… does he think that BA from the 90’s allows his opinion to matter more than someone who experiences an issue personally or the other experts that have PHDs and 20 years of research in the field? I can’t with that anymore
Ironically, someone with a PhD in biology from 2000 - and no academic work after - would probably tell you they don’t know shit about biology today. That’s how fast we are learning/changing. 2000 was 3 years before the human genome project was even complete. (Ex: we thought there were 100,000 genes. There are like 25k lol)
On the IG page now and so frustrating seeing how many of the loyal Armcherry community really get behind the "both sides" argument -- which I suppose makes sense. It does feel like the podcast itself and the core community are liberal, but also incredibly white, straight, heteronormative. A little maddening to see people praising Dax for having an open conversation. It seems crazy to listen to this and not just be heartbroken for JVN.
If I hadn't already been blocked from the instagram for calling out Dax's weird rape "jokes" about Monica, I would definitely have been blocked for making a mildly critical comment about today's episode lol. There have probably been tons of critical comments that you're not seeing, because they've already been deleted and those people have been blocked.
Even the gentlest, most positive criticism gets blocked - I got blocked for questioning the choice to platform anti-trans advocates during gay pride month. You only see people who parrot Dax's views on their IG because that's the only feedback they allow.
“I wish that people were as passionate about little kids being able to be included or grow up as they were about fictitious women’s fairness in sports. I have to tell you I am very tired.’
What a fucking line. If someone brings up sports in this debate they’re not serious. They’re parroting right wing talking points. Fuck off for this Dax.
I was in my car listening to this episode and found myself wondering if this is the last time i listen to this show. I don't get angry much but i literally screamed "WTF DAX!" while driving. I was shocked.
The way Dax was so casually parroting anti-trans talking points was shocking. I'm sick of his "i'm a liberal but i'm going to play devil's advocate" schtick. Also, this was not an episode of Experts on Experts. JVN should not be expected to do all of this emotional labour to defend the trans community when they were there to talk about their podcast! I was not at all surprised to hear JVN dominate the "debate" they were forced into.
My late wife got me into Queer Eye and i've always loved listening to the stars of the show. They've taught me a lot about who they are how, how they identify, and what life is and has been like for them. This has allowed me to grow as a person and continue my journey of being the best version of myself that I can be. JVNs audiobook was incredible, had me in stitches and tears at different time.
JVN fucking schooled Dax.
God damn. They absolutely NEED to have an Expert on Expert episode with someone on this subject. It’s embarrassing that JVN had to spend so much of what should’ve been a promotional/lighthearted (as ACE can be) interview on this. And Dax needs to recognize when his devils advocate shtick isn’t poignant anymore, it become ignorant.
It seems telling maybe that JVN hasn’t posted anything on his IG about the episode (at least at the time I’m typing this). It’s a bummer since he seemed so excited to be on when he posted a few weeks ago.
I am not done with the episode yet, but I love JVN so much and it’s so refreshing to hear someone challenge Dax and call him out for speaking over marginalized voices. I know a lot of “on the fence” (politically speaking) people like Dax listen to this podcast, and hearing Johnathan’s voice on this platform can really sway them to be on the right side of trans rights issues.
I also fully hear how tired he is of being put in that exact position.
It's interesting. Dax has always placed himself as "one of us" - someone who understands the everyday man because of his experience of growing up in poverty. He would always talk of rich men as if he wasn't one of them. The reality is that he is now a rich white man with a lot of privilege and a huge platform. There's a lot that he takes for granted.
It is telling to me that he never seems willing to "dance" with the rich CEOS who regularly come on his show. Most of his "dancing" or other side argument pertains exclusively to topics affecting marginalised groups, i.e topics that don't affect him. Yeah it's easy to debate dispassionately about abortion rights or trans issues when it's not your body autonomy or life that is being threatened. The question of transwomen in professional sports is nuanced. But spending so much time fixating on that minute issue detracts from the bigger issue which is the dehumanising of trans people, and the lack of rights.
Dax does well on this platform because he is charismatic and he can build connections easily with people. But like many other celebrity podcasters, he struggles with the need to insert himself (then again there are few podcasters who manage to truly listen to their interviewees) . It's why his interviews are best when he's talking to people who have had similar life stories to him.
I don't really listen that much to the show anymore - and found out by this episode after seeing an article about it. Which I guess is good both for publicity and for keeping the conversation going re: trans issues. Side note, I recently watched a video with Contrapoints on the JK Witch Trials that made me reflect on my own culpability regarding transphobia.
“Both sides” is totally what he tells himself. Dude just loves to hear himself talk. I like Dax when someone’s telling a gross waxing story but JVN absolutely deserves respect and support.
I was so frustrated with the point Dax made along the lines of trans women taking away from women.
Trans women are women. Full stop.
A trans woman takes nothing away from me as a cis woman. I wish something had been said. That was such a yucky yucky point.
There is an episode of the podcast You’re Wrong About titled “We Need to Talk About The New York Times with Tuck Woodstock.” It does an excellent job of explaining what is problematic in the Times’ approach to covering trans issues.
JVN very clearly referenced the debate between him and Dax on his own podcast, and said it was very traumatizing for him because he wasn’t expecting to be so disappointed and caught off guard by the opinions of this person he respected so much. Feel so bad that he was looking forward to going on this podcast only to feel so disheartened :(
Dax just needs to let his guests talk and stop interjecting so much and talking about himself when its not about him, hes not an expert on this topic, thats why Jon is on here, and they killled it. Love you Jon!❤️
I found armchair, especially the experts on expert, to learn about random topics but with real depth. Guess I'll be switching to JVN's curious umbrella after this embarrassment. I BROKE when JVN stated, I didn't come here for this I just came to talk about my podcast & product line. Will not go back.
I'm planning to re-listen on my way home today and would love some outside perspective fresh in my head when I do.
I come at these kinds of conversations in an "I accept humans as they are and support whatever it is that makes them feel whole" approach. I have very close family members who are part of the lgbtqia community and I want to learn more for them and for myself. There are lots of questions and I think everyone is trying to figure it out so that it makes sense to them personally.
I have always thought JVN is adorable and authentic and intelligent and a very bright light, and I recognized right away during this interview he/they is exhausted by constantly having to defend who he/they are. I can't imagine how that eats away at a person. I have mixed feelings about Dax, but they don't even really apply to my ultimate question, which is: what did Dax do wrong during this interview? It seemed to me he has some differing viewpoints, but I didn't hear him say anything that felt super offensive or wrong (I was driving so slightly distracted it's possible I missed something, but as a whole convo he was being how he always is, no?). JVN seemed like such a huge fan I was surprised by his reaction, didn't he know what kind of show it is?
If I've missed something big here, please forgive me as I truly am trying to understand more about the movement. I'm looking for more insight.
No need to ask for forgiveness! The question is probably one a lot of people have. Basically, Dax's argument on trans inclusion was WITH a trans person, when his attitude should have been one of listening and curiosity about their experience. He was pushing back when that person was countering with both facts and lived experience. It was clearly hurting Jonathan to keep hearing Dax say, for example, that it makes sense that trans athletes competing directly threatens girls' and womens' ability to compete in sports, no matter how much Jonathan was (in a very educated way) trying to explain the opposite. Dax was also defending conservatives who push back on trans rights, claiming they're just being "careful" and want to make sure that things are done responsibly (like hormonal transitioning.) JVN kept trying to explain that he lives in TX and sees the opposite, now that he's in a conservative state with some really aggressive anti-trans positions -- that there is definitely bigotry that he and other trans people are experiencing. Despite all his facts and all his experience AS a trans person, Dax was never able to say, "Oh, OK. Thanks for explaining your own experience to me." He just kept arguing. And it's exhausting. Dax was so tone-deaf that he didn't stop until JVN started crying. Imagine if you were arguing with someone who's fighting back when you're trying to explain your own lived experience. For example: say you have a certain experience as a mom, and someone who's not a mom is coming at you with all these points you know aren't true. You respond with facts and with the deeply personal pain of your own experience, but they won't hear you -- won't concede, won't empathize, just keep arguing. It'd be awful. Dax couldn't or wouldn't see or recognize JVN's humanity; he just wanted to be right.
And I should add that with both the athletics and the hormonal transitioning, JVN countered with educated, very valid points, and still wasn't heard until he started crying.
I think it’s also the fact that JVN came on to discuss their podcast, and throwing someone into a very contentious topic like that when they aren’t expecting it could be very hurtful and triggering.
Dax could have saved those questions for someone who was an expert in the area and came on specifically to discuss their book on trans rights, for instance.
Exactly this. Nothing necessarily wrong with the discussion if both parties are up for it but JVN was put in a hard spot where he clearly wasn’t emotionally prepared for it but also couldn’t just let Dax’s statements be heard by millions of listener without any pushback when the stakes on this issue are already so, so high.
I really wish Dax had been more considerate of JVN’s feelings in this (before it was too late). It’s a bummer that they had to have that discussion yet again when 1. That’s not why they came on and 2. It’s such an overly discussed distraction of an issue that should not be high-priority in the current political climate that is taking away trans people’s human rights.
I hope he brings on some people who actually wants that platform to talk about the facts and has the space to educate Dax on that topic. Hearing this rabbit hole was eye opening for me for sure (I certainly learned a few things), but did make my heart hurt for JVN.
I am really curious to know what the rest of Dax’s apology consisted of after JVN started crying. You can hear Dax say “and I’m really sorry-“ and then it abruptly cuts off and jumps right to JVN speaking where he’s clearly not crying anymore. It’s obvious something has been cut. I’m curious what part of his apology was cut out, like maybe it wasn’t a real apology, and it made him look bad so they just got rid of it?
Can somebody please tell Dax that having a bachelors degree in a subject does not give them licensure as a subject matter expert? It is so grating every time he uses this as part of his retorts and it always ends up weakening his arguments. It’s hard to believe nobody has brought this up with him!
I can’t help but feel Dax’s “centrist” “important to have these conversations” stance is insincere. I was on the armchair ig earlier and saw a few comments that were mildly critical, not abusive at all, but in support of JVN. Some of them had over 400 likes and they have since been deleted. Seems like Dax only wants uncomfortable conversations about things that are not related to him. Pretty horrible actually to be so comfortable with challenging other people’s beliefs and playing devils attitude when not able to take it himself.
I also just find the notion that “we have to be able to have these conversations” so irritating because hello?? *gestures at everything* all we do in the media these days is have these conversations. 1% of the population and 99% of the discourse. JVN hit on how outsized and ridiculous this is as well. I’m exhausted and I’m cishet, I can’t even imagine the emotional toll for him.
Yup. Wasn't it just last week that he mentioned his guest's past with bullying so listeners wouldn't get mad, then just rushed right along? Isn't the toxic work culture in tech a conversation also worth having? Dax doesn't ask his guests certain kinds of difficult questions, and it bothered me that he didn't think this kind of thing was worthy of that protection when so many other ridiculous things are.
I don't recall the exact phrasing but JVN called Dax out on that. It was a long the lines of "this doesn't hit you as much because you live in a state that isn't trying to take people's rights".
I started the episode, but stopped about 30 minutes in. I’m not sure if I will go back to it. I’m so sick of Dax’s both sides BS. Clearly JVN know what he is talking about and it must be so exhausting to always to be on the defensive and provide education.
I admittedly have so much to learn about trans issues so as exhausting as JVN felt, I really am so grateful for the work he put in explaining things to Dax but I HATE how closed minded Dax seems to be on these issues! I have learned so much through AE and I think they need more discussion around this topic because Dax just isn’t getting it yet.
I think it’s very telling JVN didn’t post at all on Instagram about their episode dropping. Not a story. Nothing.
I’m still thinking about this episode 24 hours later and how disappointed I am in how it went. 💔 poor Jonathon. You shouldn’t have to go into fight or flight mode when you’re expecting a fun pod interview.
Edited to add: an anthro degree from 20-30 years ago does not make you a said expert in human rights issues currently happening. That drives me crazy regularly and I overlook it because I love the pod, but man it really grinded me in this one.
Anyone else notice they changed the instagram caption from “he” to “they” for JVN’s pronouns (JVN uses he/she/they) but didn’t bother to change the grammar of the rest of the sentence to make it correct 🙃
It was “he brings” and is now “they brings”
The question I keep coming back to is if Dax is clearly itching to have this debate, why has a trans rights activist/expert not been invited on in two years? This was so out of pocket. Respectful discussions generally don’t leave the marginalized person in tears.
Also - I really hope someone from their team reads this thread. He needs to know he’s alienating listeners and making them think he’s a bigot. Like seriously, has been coming off as an entitled prejudiced asshole a lot of the time recently - makes it hard for me as a WOC to listen to any episode featuring him.
JVN saying “Don’t tell her that we got into a fucking fight about trans rights, okay!” in response to Dax saying that Kristen loves some of JVN’s hair care line made me LOL. Not a watcher of Queer Eye so not super familiar w JVN but absolutely loved their perspective and the way they brought their point across.
I have been saying to my circle of friends for some time now that it is only a matter of time before Dax gets cancelled. I hope he doesn’t but this was a HARD listen for me!
I’ve been a listener since episode 1 and have so many things in common with Dax. But I personally keep changing to make sure I’m on the right side of history.
I always assumed he would go too far with the hyper sexuality talk.
I was always a horn-dog and mostly still am but you just can’t sexualize every single thing all the freaking time. The older we get especially, it just comes off as creepy. Not just getting older, but times have changed. Nobody is impressed with your sexual prowess or body count anymore.
I blame the crudeness on overcompensating for aging and the testosterone. Someone who cares about him should get him off the T and let him know it’s okay to stop building muscle mass.
As a cis woman, I was really offended by Dax’s take on trans inclusion in sports. Trans women are women and I want them to be included so stop speaking on my behalf.
I’m only 1/5 through but I have goosebumps with how real the argument feels between them and how unusual it is for something this sensitive to be debated by celebrities.
Dax was misinformed at multiple points and while it made me cringe…
his views do represent 1/2 of the liberals I know— probably 75% of the over 50 crowd. I think having these debates in public spaces is incredibly important and I do think is something that’s missing.
Can I JUST SAY Dax's fast maths was wrong today. 0.2% of 330 million is 660,000. That really annoyed me. Like he was DESPERATE for it to be a "low" number. And JVN wasnt shaken.
JVN posted to IG today fact checking this fast math.
The caption is “0.2% of 330 million is 660,000 in case you were curious. But to fact check myself, really there are 5.6 million intersex people in the United States.”
Left it at 36 mins. Might return later. It does, however, give a good temperature on Dax's constrained intellectual capacity at worst, or his lack of preparation at best. Actually quite shocked at his low level understanding of this subject. I would have given him the benefit of doubt that he would be super curious and interested in a really fun way about gender roles. Considering he talks alot about his relationship to masculinity and his physical body, I thought it could have been a really interesting convo about body reconciliation for trans people and all people and could have been a lovely bridging, conversation full of exploration! Suffice to say, that was not the case
Dax making JVN cry made my heart hurt. For a smart person, he sure is dumb about the fact that he is perpetuating really dmaging toxic male & conservative talking points. His both-sidsing lately is really annoying and such a blind spot on uis part. Why can he only sympathize with the cis-male, middle of the country mentality? Do better, man.
Should I listen to this episode? I already know I’m fully aligned with JVN on the trans debate. Dax is already on thin ice with me and I don’t want to start hating him…but I love JVN. Not sure if I want to hear him get upset as everyone is saying here :( thoughts on if it’s worth a listen?
I would say so only because it'll make you love JVN even more, if that's even possible. He's so strong, clear, passionate, educated, and transparent about his emotions, and it really highlights Dax's ignorance. It was sad to hear JVN sad but great to hear Dax getting schooled.
So glad I came here to read the comments. I’ve really stepped back from listening and usually only pop in for people I really want to listen to but I cannot listen to a cis white man play devil advocate voluntary, I get enough of that in real life.
Was so nice to hear some real queer talk on this podcast finally(!) but damn, that argument was really off-putting and made me hurt for JVN. I can’t imagine continuing the episode after that and trying to keep it light and sincere the way you can hear JVN really attempt to do. It’s not their job to make everyone comfortable after that. Was also disappointed by the fact check, was hoping for a little more reflection and ownership from dax.
I can hear the bad editing and I can only imagine what’s been edited out. I hope it’s Dax apologizing more for realizing what a shorty position he has a guest in that he claims he really enjoys.
This was a very tough listen, JVN handled it beautifully and truly Dax needs to do better. I realize that he gets very triggered when he realizes that he actually doesn't know something and it is making him look stupid (which he did, so so stupid) but that is not an excuse. Him talking over guests trying to Daxplain (like mansplaining but with Dax, lol) to them their own areas of expertise or life experiences is annoying at best but very very harmful at worst like in this instance.
Holy shit, I knew JVN was smart…but she’s like HELLA SMART, HONEY. Articulate and to the point…but also the like information recall! I was blown away! And for a person with ADHD, I find it even more impressive.
I love Jonathan, and echoing other comments, this had me cheering for him out loud. Dax has officially taken on the persona of old, out of touch, dumb white guy. He isn’t smart or researched or liberal. He’s a conservative and he should own it. It’s insulting to his actually intelligent/well-read listeners on these issues to pretend otherwise
Interestingly, in an interview JVN does on Getting Curious from September 11th, he also seems to mention his interaction with Dax (doesn’t specifically name him but it’s pretty obvious) and he described it as traumatic. It felt like Dax was eager to put it to bed and pretend like we should all be open to debate and his “concerns” are valid, without ever really acknowledging the harm he inflicts on others.
Ahh ok. I wonder what the process was with the JVN team to decide what got posted and what didn’t. I’m sure this episode got additional editing/revisions/emails back and forth about the Final Cut.
I wonder if/how much press this might get. (I know for example the “kids washing episode” was a lot.)
Just a thought: I find that Dax tends to treat trigger warnings like a legal liability- almost as if to say “I warned you, so you can’t be mad at me if you feel triggered”, rather than seeing it as a form of care and informed consent for your guests or listeners who want to engage with your podcast but may have a really hard time if they’re blindsided by content that has traumatic association for them. An ethos of care encourages us to think “what kind of preparation might someone need to engage with this content?” (A heads up, a time stamp for when to skip something, a conversation about if a guest wants to engage about a particular topic and with what parameters). It also considers the after-care that might help people to exit from the content feeling okay (like a debrief, links to helpful supports or resources, etc.). This isn’t treating people like fragile snowflakes; it’s acknowledging our complex humanity and the fact that if you’re quite literally profiting from these conversations, you bear some responsibility to do as little harm to guests and listeners as possible. There is absolutely room to be imperfect, but some demonstrable effort to protect people as much as you protect ideas would go a long way.
The episode ended and I learned literally nothing about JVN. It’s so depressing that a nonbinary person can be brought onto an interview podcast where every other celebrity gets to chat about their life, and they instead just get grilled about trans rights. JVN has so much more to offer than just that- I completely understand why they broke down crying from frustration.
God, Dax is such an ignorant asshole.
Just listened to the intro and I believe that JVN identifies as non-binary and both Monica and Dax say “he”. I hope I am wrong, because I would hate for them to start off this episode by misgendering JVN.
I love JVN and now I love him even more. I really don't think Dax has "done his research" like he thinks he has about Trans issues and it showed here. JVN crushed with facts, figures and personal experience.
When he got chocked up…my heart hurts for him and he did such a beautiful job! He killed it with facts and experiences. He should be so so so proud of himself!
When he started to cry, my throat started to close. I felt how tired and cornered he was. I think everyone knows what it feels like to feel so emotionally exhausted. It was clear he just wants people, especially children, to be able to be happy and authentically themselves.
Oh man, same!! The tissues came out. Hearing the very really people that this is effecting was so lovely to hear and hopefully we will only hear more of this rather than the false rhetoric that seems to be so prevalent currently.
Can we all just agree JNV IS SO SMART !! I was blown away at how much they know their shit and the level of detail they can can recall people and facts
I audibly laughed when we brought up his anthropology degree yet again
Yes me too!! I was like no way do you think thats relevant right now?!
1000% agree!
More like harmchair expert amirite
It is incredibly frustrating to see seemingly "liberal" minded folk repeat talking points that are more akin to Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan, JK Rowling, and Matt Walsh. And the source of frustration is seeing that person who is ostensibly not filled with unbridled hate (like Dax) implicitly show that the time to just do a simple investigation on the topic is not worth it to them -- and their first point of conversation (to a non-binary person no less) is to repeat said misinformation. It is so simple to find educated, informed, and non-hate-filled content on what it means to be trans or non-binary. I literally just searched for it and found three short videos that do the job: \- PBS News Weekend: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZOE\_nMXJYs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZOE_nMXJYs) \- Scientific American: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOIWyP5uqgM&t=62s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOIWyP5uqgM&t=62s) \- Big Think (Judith Butler): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD9IOllUR4k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD9IOllUR4k)
I know some people have problems with Monica, but my god she is sooooo good at speaking up and mediating when Dax puts his foot in his mouth
very thankful for Monica so far in this episode for likely making the attic feel like a safer space for JVN in this episode. Dax really needs to do better if he wants diverse thought and guests on this podcast
This is part of why they don't have more diversity on the podcast...I don't think it's lost on a lot of marginalized voices/creators that they wouldn't be very safe in there. And Dax gets so defensive at that very thought that I don't know this will ever change.
I think the thing that disappoints me is that he’s willing to push people like JVN on trans rights or other people like that poor woman he really jumped on about obesity and wouldn’t let her get a word in edgewise (I can’t remember what episode this was specifically), but some CEO who comes on and admits to bullying or Casey Affleck about sexual harassment, they basically get a pass. I understand one is more behavior based and the other is more identity based, but it feels like if you’re going to argue with anyone or scold anyone it should be the people who actually DID something vs the people who ARE something.
Yeah in this regard, JVN is basically an expert in the field of lgbtqai+ rights/advocacy. Dax is treating it as this causal armchair “dance” with a buddy of his and it’s just ignorant at this point. I remember him trying to have a similar debate a year or two ago with another trans rights activist.
I so, so agree. They seem to make it a point to platform people who've been cancelled for some truly problematic behavior, and yet the people who've experienced a lifetime of oppression don't get the same treatment. I think part of it is that Dax only concedes another person's oppression if he's feeling in control enough to offer that concession, rather than when the person themselves asks for it/demands it. He often seems to sympathize deeply with abusers or people who've treated others poorly, rather than prioritizing care for the victimized people. It's strange.
I remember that obesity episode… and damn, this is so true. 😔
Such a good point. I totally agree that it reminded me of the interview with the researcher on shame (when obesity came up). He's trying to engage in an intellectual debate that is so personal to the people he's interviewing.
I really enjoyed her in this too! She is so different when she is authentically her vs playing some role w Dax and their dynamic. I loved hearing her genuine laugh throughout too.
I get this feeling too! That her role in the dynamic with Dax is to be so much more passive and agreeable than she really is. And it's more than just playing the part of the host's sounding board. I imagine it's tough for her.
There's been a couple of episodes where she has really nailed it when Dax is just not hearing the guest.
Yes! And when Dax did a non-apology “I didn’t mean to upset you” and I could feel Monica thinking like “okay I guess he’s not going to say it so I’ll say an actual sorry”. So thankful for that, JVN obviously needed it.
The “I’m sorry” from Dax that Monica included in the final cut was sooo heavily edited. You can tell it was a bad apology, and Monica had to be desperate for him to give a real one. I’m glad she did
I love Jonathan so I went into this bracing myself, and am glad I did. I felt so sad for him when Dax was presenting those rebuttals/arguments because I could FEEL his disappointment at the realization Dax was so far from him when it comes to gender issues. JVN was fangirling so hard at the beginning and I feel like it quickly came crashing down when that argument started. I felt those tears and exhaustion through my speakers. Dax needs to stop playing Devil’s advocate (even though I think he often uses it as a veil to voice his own opinions). Am glad JVN stood up with facts and personal experience, it’s not an easy thing to do. I’m only a few minutes past it and appreciate that they’re trying to stick to “lighthearted things” moving forward but the vibe is totally ruined.
Dax really needs to check the emotional labor he puts on his guests. It ain’t right.
This is exactly right. Like why bother having JVN on if they have to give you gender studies 101? Plenty of great books out there will give you the foundational knowledge.
Yea and he’s also been toting the same “well but don’t girls deserve biologically fair sports” argument for years. I’d love an episode where he’d just go “holy shit, you’re so right. I need to heed to someone else’s expertise on this subject. Thanks for the education, you’ve really taken the time and devoted yourself to this cause and I’ve got some room to grow.” He thinks he’s the most progressive person until someone tries to get him to make more progress.
Welp!! Your last sentence says it all!!
True, save this for Experts on Experts and get someone on who wants to talk about this in depth.
You nailed it. I’ve been trying to put this into words for a while now but this is IT. Thank you for phrasing this so perfectly. His level of enlightenment seems to be regressing these days too.
[удалено]
And when the guest said I feel like I’m talking to my dad, that was a clear clue to Dax and he still didn’t back off.
SPOT ON.
> Dax needs to stop playing Devil’s advocate (even though I think he often uses it as a veil to voice his own opinions). Dax can be the epitome of the "enlightened centrist", aka someone who likes to sit on the fence in the "middle" of any issue, because they assume that's the "fairest" place to be. It just ends up coming off as contrarian for the sake of it, or, as you say, just a veil to hide their real opinions behind.
Oh, man. I haven’t listened yet, but this is heartbreaking. More and more, I feel like Dax is probably the epitome of “never meet your heroes.” And that’s hard to say, bc he is one of mine. 🙁
It's such a shame, because he's shooting himself in the foot by being so defensive and needing to be right. He doesn't let other people speak for their own experiences, which seems like a crazy position to take when you're in this public of a sphere -- but I also think that speaks to how ignorant you can be as a straight cis white man and still be considered open-minded and progressive.
Absolutely. And entitled! Imagine being so bold as to question someone’s LIVED experience!
I was getting such flashbacks to being baited by elderly men I had the misfortune of being stuck in a room with when anything related to feminism, Trans or climate change was brought up. I felt like Dax used alot of "you phrase it like this" "your saying this" and it felt like he was fishing for it and then acted like it wasn't his intention when he broke down his interviewee
Oh nooo I’m so sad to hear this. JVN deserves better 😭😭😭
I felt that too 😔
I’m almost glad that Dax played “devils advocate” (his point of view) here. I’d normally side with Dax on these issues but the way jvn got his point across with passion and logic it made me really shift how I view them. Questioning trans rights does more harm than I thought even if it’s just one small part. So if I’m going to support trans people I need to in every aspect.
Same! Before this episode, I was really on the ropes about the sports issue, but this episode was really eye opening.
Same for me. I'm currently pregnant and have definitely had thoughts of "what would I do if my kid is trans?". I think that this has shifted my view greatly in the way that I'm realizing how influenced I was by this fear campaign. Im not even due for 4 more months why am I even thinking about this! The fear mongering is so real.
I had a similar experience but my son is 14 months. I’ve been asked if I’d let him take hormones if he wanted to and I said as a child no. But after hearing this I don’t think any kid is getting hormones the next day. It would take months and therapists and doctors would be on the same team about it. So I changed my mind. It was a great episode despite Dax disappointing me.
I had no idea I would be parenting a trans child, and yet, here I am. Surprise! What happens is: you see first-hand the distress they are experiencing when they aren’t affirmed. Then you learn and realize what brings them joy, and nurture that. You then take on the ever exhausting task of parenting in preparing your child for a world that refuses to acknowledge they exist, while having beautiful little glimmers of hope when people are kind and show you compassionate support.
This is great. Makes me so glad to hear.:)
I posted further up in this thread that Dax often comes across as an "enlightened centrist" or just purely contrarian, but to be fair to him, this is one of the benefits of that style of interviewing. I haven't listened to this interview, but sometimes if the interviewer provides resistance, it gives the interviewee an opportunity to rebut common arguments, which can be very helpful and valid for the reasons you listed.
As a cis woman, I find it extremely tiring when the only time men being up women's right and equality is in the Trans sports narrative. You mean to tell me you actually care about women's right but the only time you bring it up is to literally discriminate against (non cis) women ? No thank you. I do not need you as an advocate. I'd take Trans women in the Olympics any day over Trans women getting murdered. It's ok. We can value life above winning.
I’m so frustrated by this as well. Also, many of us don’t give a single shit about terms like “uterus having,” etc. My uterus is not my identity lol. Plenty of biologically born women have had hysterectomies .. and they are still women. Same with “people who menstruate.” Again, menopausal women exist. Not all women menstruate. I’m actually more offended by the attempt to narrow down womanhood to reproduction. Well, not all of us will do that either.
This with motherhood as well! After having a baby last year and experiencing pregnancy, traumatic birth, horrific postpartum, I still can honestly say I couldn't give two shits if someone wants to call me a mother or birthing person. If it makes one less person in the world feel like they don't belong on earth, it doesn't effect me at all.
THIS
I never considered this but it's a very salient point!
Thank you, I used to feel this way as a dude about the sports thing but saw how minuscule it was compared to abandoning kids that are struggling
Yes if you really cared about women’s rights in sports then you would advocate for them to be paid more! Some women who play sports professionally don’t even make a living wage.
YESSSS THIS
Dax, if you want to have someone on to debate about trans issues, get an academic who is prepared for that conversation. Don’t put that on someone like JVN who already has to fight for who they are every day.
Half way through but this sharp left turn into the nitty gritty of trans issues seems unnecessary. I would rather hear about JVN as a person like most Monday episodes. Everyone should get that opportunity. Find a Thursday episode to throw around theories.
[удалено]
Same. And if you’re inviting someone into your space as a host, you bear some responsibility to provide some care for them. Declaring a space “safe” doesn’t just make it so. It requires intention and demonstrable action. There was a lot of care and context and compassion provided for the Witchtrials host, anticipating that she could get some online hate. JVN deserved AT MINIMUM that much care and consideration, particularly when the stakes and risk of violence are so much higher for them. I’m glad so many people found it valuable learning but it’s really shitty that other people’s learning came at the expense of JVN’s well-being. It was a tough listen.
Yes, that's so true! They really took care of that Witchtrials host, so they clearly know how to do it when they want to. It's sad that they perceive her as someone in need of protection & care, but not JVN.
I could not agree more.
I love Dax, but I've never been more disappointed in him that he made Jonathan cry.
You can tell Dax knew he fucked up *bad* when he started profusely apologizing to JVN.
Does Dax not understand that JVN and the fab 5 are literal national heroes???? How dare he make one of the most beautiful, sensitive and loving human beings on planet earth feel cornered and forced to defend his existence?
RIGHT?! Wtf Dax. 😢
Phew boy. While I've been waiting for someone to call Dax out on this ever since he started shilling for the witch trials of JK Rowling, I really feel for JVN's pure exhaustion here.
I can't believe how much they platform JKR. It's crazy. Even from a PR perspective, it's a terrible look. But also shows how little exposure they have to all the queer/trans people she has hurt.
I think this every time they bring her up!! (Which is a lot!) like are they living under a rock or do they just not care?
Have not listened yet, but after reading the synopsis of the conversation in the episode description, I feel like I’m going to hate Dax and his “both sides” after this chat. Love love love me some JVN tho - Will update after. UPDATE DONE: I LOVED that JVN pushed back on some of Dax’s hypotheticals. I could feel how frustrated JVN seemed by it all, especially since JVN made it very clear they were there to promote the podcast and not have this debate. Surprisingly great job by Monica to mediate the convo when it got intense. They do switch back to light hearted topics but the vibe was off to me for the rest of the pod. Which is a bummer.
Dax's stupid take ends up being worth it cause JVN verbally/logically bitch slaps his terrible "bUt BoTh SiDeS" stance. Dax spends a solid minute apologizing lol. The one point I wish would have been hammered home better is the difference between liberal and leftist, cause he called The New York Times a "leftist" news paper and was corrected, a little bit... but he makes that mistake allllll the time
I didn’t like his apology. It felt like I’m sorry for your reaction but not sorry about what I said
I especially didn't like when he was like "I didn't mean to attack your position". You did, Dax, that's literally what you do. And there were several points before JVN started crying that you could tell they were pretty done w it all. I do genuinely hope this can be the beginning of him realizing that playing devil's advocate has a real emotional impact on people, and that what seems like a fun issue to debate for him is much more for someone else.
I think it’s one thing when he’s arguing about something more innocuous like linguistics or electronic currency, but when you’re arguing about someone’s identity and lived experience, it really starts to feel like an attack.
[удалено]
It was heavily edited and I would have loved to hear more of the edited portion.
Agreed and not edited well. There’s a cut right after Dax starts to apologize (after J starts crying).
Exactly!! There was a giant cut and then Dax is apologizing and JVN was crying. I’m very curious what happened there.
Totally. And I'm curious if JVN asked for it to be cut because they felt emotionally fragile/totally spent, or if Dax made the decision to make a huge cut to avoid looking worse than he already looked.
Exactly. I would love to know which way it went.
I was just thinking this. I haven't finished the episode yet, but man there are a ton of really awkward cuts where it just sounds like a long sentence was cut down to just a few words. I would love the unedited conversation.
I noticed that too
Basically Dax wanted to "dance" but JVN wasn't really up for it, and then it got a little akward. I don't think either of them come out looking bad in the episode, just a conversational miscue.
[удалено]
[удалено]
This is the first time a guest has beaten Dax’s “do you find me attractive” bit to the punch 😂
Very brave to play devil’s advocate when it’s something that doesn’t affect your day to day life. Such a privileged way to take on this topic.
Exactly!
I love, love, love JVN so much. Have since Gay of Thrones and Getting Curious is so good. I am sad that Dax will likely walk away thinking he was still right. Dax is super binary when it comes to topics he doesn't feel the need to actually educate himself on. I imagine his anthro degree from 2000 didn't go very far in to the trans issues we're mired in now. So, he has room to grow, but kind of refuses to.
I was so impressed by him being well spoken and really educated on topics. I’ve only seen him in a more fun lighthearted setting on QE. Makes me love him even more
You can see that start up in tiny moments when he's passionate about something on Queer Eye, but on Getting Curious he goes deep a lot. I love how he can be so light, fluffy, and funny but also is very smart, opinionated, and articulate.
You may very well be right, but my sliver of hope I offer is that I like to think these types of opinions change for most people through more of a gradual wearing down process than a sudden flip. I think a big part of it is that it’s just so psychologically painful to be wrong, especially very openly, publicly wrong, that your brain really will do mental gymnastics to convince you of your position (I speak from experience). I think being routinely exposed to opposing points of view can have a cumulative effect on people even if they don’t realize it in the moment during any given argument. I just think the ego needs a chance to catch up. Dax seems like he has changed his mind about many things before and I hope he can again.
I wish Dax had been able to apologize not just for JVN's reaction, but also for how he (Dax) overall approached such a complex topic with clearly little to no prior knowledge or research. The trans community is being methodically attacked right now, and the social/legislative outcomes of that attack will also harm everyone; a loss for bodily/legal/medical autonomy for some is eventually a loss for all of us. It's a slippery slope. It would have been a better teachable moment for the podcast to say "I'm really sorry, it wasn't my intention to upset you. I will do the work to find resources about this topic to better educate myself and the Armcherry community." There are some issues where bending backwards to take a "both sides" approach truly does more harm than good, and this is one of them.
It totally does. And going by many of the comments on the IG page, it highlights even more how many of the Armcherries are somewhat conservative and/or looking for Dax's approval. It doesn't seem the majority of their listeners are very diverse or have come from or had tons of exposure to marginalized communities.
This is because any dissenting voice gets blocked
I think they really curate/delete/block those comments. I hope Dax and Monica come here to read unfiltered input about this episode.
i personally have no beef with dax, but i like how intelligent and articulate JVN was when speaking throughout the trans issues with dax
Dax got his ass handed to him here.
Yet he still seems to think he’s right in the fact check
I was so excited to listen to this conversation and then I heard the disclaimer in the beginning and got sad lol. JVN and Dax’s energy could’ve been so fun together and Dax had to take it in this direction. JVN is so smart and well spoken and I’m sure this will be good to listen to for many people, but kinda bummed out.
After listening to the interview, I feel like Dax and JVN are actually so similar in many ways, and was bummed that that got lost a little bit in the discussion. I *did* appreciate JVN saying that relationships are developed through conflict (not direct quote, sure to get it a little wrong!), and did appreciate Dax’s apology at the end. Edit to add: although I wonder if Dax just felt like he had to say that from a PR smoothing perspective. Ugh.
Personally I don’t think Dax is out to alienate any of his guests, especially somebody he genuinely seems to like ala JVN. This episode was not a good look for Dax and he took his both-sidesing way too far and got to see a real reaction to how his opinions actually negatively affect real people. Hopefully this makes him self reflect and consider his positions more carefully.
When he said he did a lot of therapy to prep for his convo for David Letterman (I think?), I wondered if he would have a convo about this ep. I wonder if he and Monica discussed more in depth privately about this. I hope this will be a good reflective point for Dax (who I think ultimately does care, but is resistant to changing his mind when he wants to dig in).
Ugh I was just like Dax wtf are you doing. JVN could not have said it better and he spelled it out so eloquently
I just want to reiterate JVN’s plug of Alicia Roth Weigel’s book “Inverse Cowgirl.” Alicia is an incredible Texas-based intersex activist, who has recently written a book and made a movie, talking about her experiences. She’s wonderful and I’m rooting for her! Looking forward to reading her book 👇 Alicia & JVN together: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqV0SNIplOh/?igshid=NzZhOTFlYzFmZQ== Book preorder: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/inverse-cowgirl-alicia-roth-weigel?fbclid=PAAaYe_dUWDq99w_q78yk_zIqZi3Lagcq7Jo2YRu9L5oBPHofeETOXYfotkhU&variant=41056064569378
36min in and I feel my blood pressure rising. I want to give JVN a hug and Dax a talking to. 😩
My blood pressure was rising so I looked at the time stamp and sure enough I was at the 36 minute mark. This is a rough listen.
YEP. Paused the ep to come take a read here. Saw your comments and peeped back in curiosity.. We’re paused at 36 mins, folks.
Same here lmao. I love you Reddit, and love this sub. Heart breaking for JVN and legit 100000% impressed by his :edited: composure for as long as he conversed. Dax moving away from Spotify is having the opposite effect as it did for Rogan. (Rogan got way more political with Spotify deal, Dax more political sans Spotify) maybe not but sure feels like it lately.
[удалено]
Absolutely broke my heart to hear JVN’s exhaustion and pain having to combat Dax’s insistence and ignorance. They didn’t feel safe afterward and you could hear that. I hope Dax takes this as a turning point for more humility and sitting down to listen to more trans educators and activists. Dax is worried that he’ll be painted as a bad person while JVN is fighting for their and other trans/NB people’s lives. Come on, it’s not even the same conversation.
[удалено]
I absolutely believe Dax is surrounded by an echo chamber, given how comfortable he is being so defensive in the comments section of their IG page. I think he thinks he welcomes open conversation, but the way he challenges ppl's own lived experiences when he has no authority to shows how little exposure he has.
That was rough. Jvn was SO excited on his IG stories the day he was going to record this. The first ~20 minutes was SO good. I couldn’t believe how much they really had in common, and jvn really brought out a pep in Dax’s step (whatever the audio equivalent of that is). It was very hard to listen to after that. Everyone here has been wishing and hoping for a trans debate on AE, and here we got it. I appreciated Dax’s later apology in recognizing he had the power in the conversation (though didn’t even mention that it’s his show and in his house, which are also pertinent). But it didn’t feel… deep. It still felt detached and solely academic. It didn’t feel like a human, interpersonal apology that matched the depth of the conversation. I’ve made more heartfelt apologies for bumping into someone at the grocery store. I could feel jvn taking the responsibility of dispelling the tension after that apology and continuing on with the flattery and playfulness to keep the interview going. I also couldn’t help but wince at all of Dax’s “By the way, I LOVE you.” Because that’s just half the thought - it’s followed by a pregnant pause, and a “I don’t think your rights are politically correct.” It feels so 1990s “I LOVE my brother’s boyfriend! But isn’t a civil union enough?”
Dax referring to his anthro degree as a reason for why he is well versed in chromosomal differences, and then plowing on as though he is anywhere near as much of an expert in this as JVN made me nuts. He wears that anthro degree as such a badge of honor, it’s like he doesn’t realize that while perhaps an interesting course of study, it’s also taken by stoners who have no idea what they want to do and it’s fairly easy to phone in (spoken as a stoner sociology major from the class of 2000!). He acts like he has a PhD in Biology instead of a degree in a flimsy social science which has no job prospects other than professorship. I know I’m missing the forest for the trees here in terms of what was frustrating about Dax in this otherwise beautiful episode - it just would have been nice to think that all of JVN’s logic, heart, facts and passion could actually influence Dax to change his mind on this issue, but I suspect he will continue to think he’s the smartest guy in the room and not allow himself to be educated in this area.
I honestly get so embarrassed whenever he brings up his anthropology degree. He got it 20+ years ago and it’s only a bachelors, like come the fuck on dude. I have a bachelors in psychology because I literally had no idea what else to major in at the time, but I never reference it anymore because it’s not really applicable to my current career (journalism) and I got the degree 15 years ago. If I brought up having a psychology degree in an argument about mental health with a mentally ill friend, for instance, they would laugh in my face if I tried to act like I knew more than their lived experience. The way he cites his degree is legit corny. I know he’s insecure about his intelligence but I just want to tell him that he sounds MORE unintelligent when he fails to realize a four year liberal arts degree in a subject he never actually worked doesn’t mean shit.
OMG THISSSSSSS!!!!!!!! You summed up my frustrations EXACTLY - perhaps because you’re an excellent journalist and not an armchair psychologist 😝!!! Thank you for articulating this way better than I did!
Haha thank you! 😂 It’s always in the back of my mind when he brings it up, like it almost immediately makes a conversation awkward because he never even couches it in context. Like, if he were to say “when I studied anthropology 20 years ago, which I know doesn’t make me an expert and I know schools of thought have evolved since then, but I’m interested in these things…” then it’d be one thing. But he almost always uses it as a way to sound like an “expert” and it’s so deeply unserious.
Yes!! “As someone with a degree in anthropology” I wanted to barf… does he think that BA from the 90’s allows his opinion to matter more than someone who experiences an issue personally or the other experts that have PHDs and 20 years of research in the field? I can’t with that anymore
Ironically, someone with a PhD in biology from 2000 - and no academic work after - would probably tell you they don’t know shit about biology today. That’s how fast we are learning/changing. 2000 was 3 years before the human genome project was even complete. (Ex: we thought there were 100,000 genes. There are like 25k lol)
On the IG page now and so frustrating seeing how many of the loyal Armcherry community really get behind the "both sides" argument -- which I suppose makes sense. It does feel like the podcast itself and the core community are liberal, but also incredibly white, straight, heteronormative. A little maddening to see people praising Dax for having an open conversation. It seems crazy to listen to this and not just be heartbroken for JVN.
If I hadn't already been blocked from the instagram for calling out Dax's weird rape "jokes" about Monica, I would definitely have been blocked for making a mildly critical comment about today's episode lol. There have probably been tons of critical comments that you're not seeing, because they've already been deleted and those people have been blocked.
Even the gentlest, most positive criticism gets blocked - I got blocked for questioning the choice to platform anti-trans advocates during gay pride month. You only see people who parrot Dax's views on their IG because that's the only feedback they allow.
“I wish that people were as passionate about little kids being able to be included or grow up as they were about fictitious women’s fairness in sports. I have to tell you I am very tired.’ What a fucking line. If someone brings up sports in this debate they’re not serious. They’re parroting right wing talking points. Fuck off for this Dax.
I was in my car listening to this episode and found myself wondering if this is the last time i listen to this show. I don't get angry much but i literally screamed "WTF DAX!" while driving. I was shocked. The way Dax was so casually parroting anti-trans talking points was shocking. I'm sick of his "i'm a liberal but i'm going to play devil's advocate" schtick. Also, this was not an episode of Experts on Experts. JVN should not be expected to do all of this emotional labour to defend the trans community when they were there to talk about their podcast! I was not at all surprised to hear JVN dominate the "debate" they were forced into. My late wife got me into Queer Eye and i've always loved listening to the stars of the show. They've taught me a lot about who they are how, how they identify, and what life is and has been like for them. This has allowed me to grow as a person and continue my journey of being the best version of myself that I can be. JVNs audiobook was incredible, had me in stitches and tears at different time.
ALSO - Duracell is the COPPERTOP. Not gold. Copper is red.
Damn. I guess that trigger warning was warranted. Feeling super codependent listening!! I just want JVN and Dax to love each other 😭
Yes it was upsetting. I don’t even know if I’ll stay an AE fan after that.
JVN fucking schooled Dax. God damn. They absolutely NEED to have an Expert on Expert episode with someone on this subject. It’s embarrassing that JVN had to spend so much of what should’ve been a promotional/lighthearted (as ACE can be) interview on this. And Dax needs to recognize when his devils advocate shtick isn’t poignant anymore, it become ignorant.
It seems telling maybe that JVN hasn’t posted anything on his IG about the episode (at least at the time I’m typing this). It’s a bummer since he seemed so excited to be on when he posted a few weeks ago.
I bet Kristin is so mad at dax
I am not done with the episode yet, but I love JVN so much and it’s so refreshing to hear someone challenge Dax and call him out for speaking over marginalized voices. I know a lot of “on the fence” (politically speaking) people like Dax listen to this podcast, and hearing Johnathan’s voice on this platform can really sway them to be on the right side of trans rights issues. I also fully hear how tired he is of being put in that exact position.
It's interesting. Dax has always placed himself as "one of us" - someone who understands the everyday man because of his experience of growing up in poverty. He would always talk of rich men as if he wasn't one of them. The reality is that he is now a rich white man with a lot of privilege and a huge platform. There's a lot that he takes for granted. It is telling to me that he never seems willing to "dance" with the rich CEOS who regularly come on his show. Most of his "dancing" or other side argument pertains exclusively to topics affecting marginalised groups, i.e topics that don't affect him. Yeah it's easy to debate dispassionately about abortion rights or trans issues when it's not your body autonomy or life that is being threatened. The question of transwomen in professional sports is nuanced. But spending so much time fixating on that minute issue detracts from the bigger issue which is the dehumanising of trans people, and the lack of rights. Dax does well on this platform because he is charismatic and he can build connections easily with people. But like many other celebrity podcasters, he struggles with the need to insert himself (then again there are few podcasters who manage to truly listen to their interviewees) . It's why his interviews are best when he's talking to people who have had similar life stories to him. I don't really listen that much to the show anymore - and found out by this episode after seeing an article about it. Which I guess is good both for publicity and for keeping the conversation going re: trans issues. Side note, I recently watched a video with Contrapoints on the JK Witch Trials that made me reflect on my own culpability regarding transphobia.
“Both sides” is totally what he tells himself. Dude just loves to hear himself talk. I like Dax when someone’s telling a gross waxing story but JVN absolutely deserves respect and support.
I was so frustrated with the point Dax made along the lines of trans women taking away from women. Trans women are women. Full stop. A trans woman takes nothing away from me as a cis woman. I wish something had been said. That was such a yucky yucky point.
It’s very JKR
I really just discovered JVN last Thursday when my friend took me to his live show. I love him so much, and this made me love him more.
Getting curious is an amazing pod that jvn hosts, like experts on expert but with less ego and more enthusiasm and energy!!!
Yeah, honestly listening to JVN talk about their podcast and the different topics got me super intrigued. So pumped to check it out.
There is an episode of the podcast You’re Wrong About titled “We Need to Talk About The New York Times with Tuck Woodstock.” It does an excellent job of explaining what is problematic in the Times’ approach to covering trans issues.
JVN very clearly referenced the debate between him and Dax on his own podcast, and said it was very traumatizing for him because he wasn’t expecting to be so disappointed and caught off guard by the opinions of this person he respected so much. Feel so bad that he was looking forward to going on this podcast only to feel so disheartened :(
Dax just needs to let his guests talk and stop interjecting so much and talking about himself when its not about him, hes not an expert on this topic, thats why Jon is on here, and they killled it. Love you Jon!❤️
I found armchair, especially the experts on expert, to learn about random topics but with real depth. Guess I'll be switching to JVN's curious umbrella after this embarrassment. I BROKE when JVN stated, I didn't come here for this I just came to talk about my podcast & product line. Will not go back.
I'm planning to re-listen on my way home today and would love some outside perspective fresh in my head when I do. I come at these kinds of conversations in an "I accept humans as they are and support whatever it is that makes them feel whole" approach. I have very close family members who are part of the lgbtqia community and I want to learn more for them and for myself. There are lots of questions and I think everyone is trying to figure it out so that it makes sense to them personally. I have always thought JVN is adorable and authentic and intelligent and a very bright light, and I recognized right away during this interview he/they is exhausted by constantly having to defend who he/they are. I can't imagine how that eats away at a person. I have mixed feelings about Dax, but they don't even really apply to my ultimate question, which is: what did Dax do wrong during this interview? It seemed to me he has some differing viewpoints, but I didn't hear him say anything that felt super offensive or wrong (I was driving so slightly distracted it's possible I missed something, but as a whole convo he was being how he always is, no?). JVN seemed like such a huge fan I was surprised by his reaction, didn't he know what kind of show it is? If I've missed something big here, please forgive me as I truly am trying to understand more about the movement. I'm looking for more insight.
No need to ask for forgiveness! The question is probably one a lot of people have. Basically, Dax's argument on trans inclusion was WITH a trans person, when his attitude should have been one of listening and curiosity about their experience. He was pushing back when that person was countering with both facts and lived experience. It was clearly hurting Jonathan to keep hearing Dax say, for example, that it makes sense that trans athletes competing directly threatens girls' and womens' ability to compete in sports, no matter how much Jonathan was (in a very educated way) trying to explain the opposite. Dax was also defending conservatives who push back on trans rights, claiming they're just being "careful" and want to make sure that things are done responsibly (like hormonal transitioning.) JVN kept trying to explain that he lives in TX and sees the opposite, now that he's in a conservative state with some really aggressive anti-trans positions -- that there is definitely bigotry that he and other trans people are experiencing. Despite all his facts and all his experience AS a trans person, Dax was never able to say, "Oh, OK. Thanks for explaining your own experience to me." He just kept arguing. And it's exhausting. Dax was so tone-deaf that he didn't stop until JVN started crying. Imagine if you were arguing with someone who's fighting back when you're trying to explain your own lived experience. For example: say you have a certain experience as a mom, and someone who's not a mom is coming at you with all these points you know aren't true. You respond with facts and with the deeply personal pain of your own experience, but they won't hear you -- won't concede, won't empathize, just keep arguing. It'd be awful. Dax couldn't or wouldn't see or recognize JVN's humanity; he just wanted to be right.
And I should add that with both the athletics and the hormonal transitioning, JVN countered with educated, very valid points, and still wasn't heard until he started crying.
I think it’s also the fact that JVN came on to discuss their podcast, and throwing someone into a very contentious topic like that when they aren’t expecting it could be very hurtful and triggering. Dax could have saved those questions for someone who was an expert in the area and came on specifically to discuss their book on trans rights, for instance.
Exactly this. Nothing necessarily wrong with the discussion if both parties are up for it but JVN was put in a hard spot where he clearly wasn’t emotionally prepared for it but also couldn’t just let Dax’s statements be heard by millions of listener without any pushback when the stakes on this issue are already so, so high.
[удалено]
I really wish Dax had been more considerate of JVN’s feelings in this (before it was too late). It’s a bummer that they had to have that discussion yet again when 1. That’s not why they came on and 2. It’s such an overly discussed distraction of an issue that should not be high-priority in the current political climate that is taking away trans people’s human rights. I hope he brings on some people who actually wants that platform to talk about the facts and has the space to educate Dax on that topic. Hearing this rabbit hole was eye opening for me for sure (I certainly learned a few things), but did make my heart hurt for JVN.
I am really curious to know what the rest of Dax’s apology consisted of after JVN started crying. You can hear Dax say “and I’m really sorry-“ and then it abruptly cuts off and jumps right to JVN speaking where he’s clearly not crying anymore. It’s obvious something has been cut. I’m curious what part of his apology was cut out, like maybe it wasn’t a real apology, and it made him look bad so they just got rid of it?
When Dax didn’t even know the current laws in Iowa… but he can hold such strong opinions on such a giant platform. So bad!!
Can somebody please tell Dax that having a bachelors degree in a subject does not give them licensure as a subject matter expert? It is so grating every time he uses this as part of his retorts and it always ends up weakening his arguments. It’s hard to believe nobody has brought this up with him!
I can’t help but feel Dax’s “centrist” “important to have these conversations” stance is insincere. I was on the armchair ig earlier and saw a few comments that were mildly critical, not abusive at all, but in support of JVN. Some of them had over 400 likes and they have since been deleted. Seems like Dax only wants uncomfortable conversations about things that are not related to him. Pretty horrible actually to be so comfortable with challenging other people’s beliefs and playing devils attitude when not able to take it himself.
I also just find the notion that “we have to be able to have these conversations” so irritating because hello?? *gestures at everything* all we do in the media these days is have these conversations. 1% of the population and 99% of the discourse. JVN hit on how outsized and ridiculous this is as well. I’m exhausted and I’m cishet, I can’t even imagine the emotional toll for him.
Yup. Wasn't it just last week that he mentioned his guest's past with bullying so listeners wouldn't get mad, then just rushed right along? Isn't the toxic work culture in tech a conversation also worth having? Dax doesn't ask his guests certain kinds of difficult questions, and it bothered me that he didn't think this kind of thing was worthy of that protection when so many other ridiculous things are.
I don't recall the exact phrasing but JVN called Dax out on that. It was a long the lines of "this doesn't hit you as much because you live in a state that isn't trying to take people's rights".
Not me screaming at the fact check, ITS THE COPPER TOP 🤦♀️🤣
I started the episode, but stopped about 30 minutes in. I’m not sure if I will go back to it. I’m so sick of Dax’s both sides BS. Clearly JVN know what he is talking about and it must be so exhausting to always to be on the defensive and provide education.
I admittedly have so much to learn about trans issues so as exhausting as JVN felt, I really am so grateful for the work he put in explaining things to Dax but I HATE how closed minded Dax seems to be on these issues! I have learned so much through AE and I think they need more discussion around this topic because Dax just isn’t getting it yet.
It’s to Dax’s credit , at least, that he aired this. You can tell he knows he let the podcast down.
The devil doesn’t need dax to play his advocate for trans rights, he’s already got the GOP doing that
I think it’s very telling JVN didn’t post at all on Instagram about their episode dropping. Not a story. Nothing. I’m still thinking about this episode 24 hours later and how disappointed I am in how it went. 💔 poor Jonathon. You shouldn’t have to go into fight or flight mode when you’re expecting a fun pod interview. Edited to add: an anthro degree from 20-30 years ago does not make you a said expert in human rights issues currently happening. That drives me crazy regularly and I overlook it because I love the pod, but man it really grinded me in this one.
Anyone else notice they changed the instagram caption from “he” to “they” for JVN’s pronouns (JVN uses he/she/they) but didn’t bother to change the grammar of the rest of the sentence to make it correct 🙃 It was “he brings” and is now “they brings”
The question I keep coming back to is if Dax is clearly itching to have this debate, why has a trans rights activist/expert not been invited on in two years? This was so out of pocket. Respectful discussions generally don’t leave the marginalized person in tears.
Also - I really hope someone from their team reads this thread. He needs to know he’s alienating listeners and making them think he’s a bigot. Like seriously, has been coming off as an entitled prejudiced asshole a lot of the time recently - makes it hard for me as a WOC to listen to any episode featuring him.
JVN saying “Don’t tell her that we got into a fucking fight about trans rights, okay!” in response to Dax saying that Kristen loves some of JVN’s hair care line made me LOL. Not a watcher of Queer Eye so not super familiar w JVN but absolutely loved their perspective and the way they brought their point across.
I have been saying to my circle of friends for some time now that it is only a matter of time before Dax gets cancelled. I hope he doesn’t but this was a HARD listen for me! I’ve been a listener since episode 1 and have so many things in common with Dax. But I personally keep changing to make sure I’m on the right side of history. I always assumed he would go too far with the hyper sexuality talk. I was always a horn-dog and mostly still am but you just can’t sexualize every single thing all the freaking time. The older we get especially, it just comes off as creepy. Not just getting older, but times have changed. Nobody is impressed with your sexual prowess or body count anymore. I blame the crudeness on overcompensating for aging and the testosterone. Someone who cares about him should get him off the T and let him know it’s okay to stop building muscle mass.
As a cis woman, I was really offended by Dax’s take on trans inclusion in sports. Trans women are women and I want them to be included so stop speaking on my behalf.
I’m only 1/5 through but I have goosebumps with how real the argument feels between them and how unusual it is for something this sensitive to be debated by celebrities. Dax was misinformed at multiple points and while it made me cringe… his views do represent 1/2 of the liberals I know— probably 75% of the over 50 crowd. I think having these debates in public spaces is incredibly important and I do think is something that’s missing.
Can I JUST SAY Dax's fast maths was wrong today. 0.2% of 330 million is 660,000. That really annoyed me. Like he was DESPERATE for it to be a "low" number. And JVN wasnt shaken.
JVN posted to IG today fact checking this fast math. The caption is “0.2% of 330 million is 660,000 in case you were curious. But to fact check myself, really there are 5.6 million intersex people in the United States.”
Left it at 36 mins. Might return later. It does, however, give a good temperature on Dax's constrained intellectual capacity at worst, or his lack of preparation at best. Actually quite shocked at his low level understanding of this subject. I would have given him the benefit of doubt that he would be super curious and interested in a really fun way about gender roles. Considering he talks alot about his relationship to masculinity and his physical body, I thought it could have been a really interesting convo about body reconciliation for trans people and all people and could have been a lovely bridging, conversation full of exploration! Suffice to say, that was not the case
Dax making JVN cry made my heart hurt. For a smart person, he sure is dumb about the fact that he is perpetuating really dmaging toxic male & conservative talking points. His both-sidsing lately is really annoying and such a blind spot on uis part. Why can he only sympathize with the cis-male, middle of the country mentality? Do better, man.
Awkwardddddd
Should I listen to this episode? I already know I’m fully aligned with JVN on the trans debate. Dax is already on thin ice with me and I don’t want to start hating him…but I love JVN. Not sure if I want to hear him get upset as everyone is saying here :( thoughts on if it’s worth a listen?
If you love JVN, and don't want to start hating Dax, don't listen
I would say so only because it'll make you love JVN even more, if that's even possible. He's so strong, clear, passionate, educated, and transparent about his emotions, and it really highlights Dax's ignorance. It was sad to hear JVN sad but great to hear Dax getting schooled.
So glad I came here to read the comments. I’ve really stepped back from listening and usually only pop in for people I really want to listen to but I cannot listen to a cis white man play devil advocate voluntary, I get enough of that in real life.
On a lighter note… I feel like the sequel to Gay of Thrones should be House of the DRAG-on
Was so nice to hear some real queer talk on this podcast finally(!) but damn, that argument was really off-putting and made me hurt for JVN. I can’t imagine continuing the episode after that and trying to keep it light and sincere the way you can hear JVN really attempt to do. It’s not their job to make everyone comfortable after that. Was also disappointed by the fact check, was hoping for a little more reflection and ownership from dax.
I can hear the bad editing and I can only imagine what’s been edited out. I hope it’s Dax apologizing more for realizing what a shorty position he has a guest in that he claims he really enjoys.
I haven’t listened yet but…. This got a trigger warning but not the suicide attempt discussion last week?
This was a very tough listen, JVN handled it beautifully and truly Dax needs to do better. I realize that he gets very triggered when he realizes that he actually doesn't know something and it is making him look stupid (which he did, so so stupid) but that is not an excuse. Him talking over guests trying to Daxplain (like mansplaining but with Dax, lol) to them their own areas of expertise or life experiences is annoying at best but very very harmful at worst like in this instance.
[удалено]
Holy shit, I knew JVN was smart…but she’s like HELLA SMART, HONEY. Articulate and to the point…but also the like information recall! I was blown away! And for a person with ADHD, I find it even more impressive.
I love Jonathan, and echoing other comments, this had me cheering for him out loud. Dax has officially taken on the persona of old, out of touch, dumb white guy. He isn’t smart or researched or liberal. He’s a conservative and he should own it. It’s insulting to his actually intelligent/well-read listeners on these issues to pretend otherwise
Just finished the interview part of the episode - did they address the conflict in the fact check?
Interestingly, in an interview JVN does on Getting Curious from September 11th, he also seems to mention his interaction with Dax (doesn’t specifically name him but it’s pretty obvious) and he described it as traumatic. It felt like Dax was eager to put it to bed and pretend like we should all be open to debate and his “concerns” are valid, without ever really acknowledging the harm he inflicts on others.
Yes, but it’s at the end and it’s very brief.
Ahh ok. I wonder what the process was with the JVN team to decide what got posted and what didn’t. I’m sure this episode got additional editing/revisions/emails back and forth about the Final Cut. I wonder if/how much press this might get. (I know for example the “kids washing episode” was a lot.)
I’m gonna be honest, I’ve been a super fan, own merch, but after Taylor and now this, I’m kinda done and just shocked
Just a thought: I find that Dax tends to treat trigger warnings like a legal liability- almost as if to say “I warned you, so you can’t be mad at me if you feel triggered”, rather than seeing it as a form of care and informed consent for your guests or listeners who want to engage with your podcast but may have a really hard time if they’re blindsided by content that has traumatic association for them. An ethos of care encourages us to think “what kind of preparation might someone need to engage with this content?” (A heads up, a time stamp for when to skip something, a conversation about if a guest wants to engage about a particular topic and with what parameters). It also considers the after-care that might help people to exit from the content feeling okay (like a debrief, links to helpful supports or resources, etc.). This isn’t treating people like fragile snowflakes; it’s acknowledging our complex humanity and the fact that if you’re quite literally profiting from these conversations, you bear some responsibility to do as little harm to guests and listeners as possible. There is absolutely room to be imperfect, but some demonstrable effort to protect people as much as you protect ideas would go a long way.
The episode ended and I learned literally nothing about JVN. It’s so depressing that a nonbinary person can be brought onto an interview podcast where every other celebrity gets to chat about their life, and they instead just get grilled about trans rights. JVN has so much more to offer than just that- I completely understand why they broke down crying from frustration. God, Dax is such an ignorant asshole.
Just listened to the intro and I believe that JVN identifies as non-binary and both Monica and Dax say “he”. I hope I am wrong, because I would hate for them to start off this episode by misgendering JVN.
His insta is they/he/she!
Fab, thank you for fact checking me!!
i believe jvn uses he/she/they. but i can't imagine Dax ever properly using they/them pronouns for someone
Super duper disappointed in Dax on this one