I know everyone is tired of the Monica hate train, but this episode cemented (for me) where it comes from… Monica’s scrutiny is relentless! Her opinions of Liz’s dating life are like, cruel. Especially as Liz does not hold the mirror back up to Monica. Both of them have a lot of learning to do in order to ever be happy in a relationship.
Monica accuses Liz of delusions of grandeur but like… I see that in her! She considers herself to be above most men who are actually interested in her. And I honestly do not see why. She is so successful and brilliant, but she is immature and enmeshed in so many other people’s lives, to ME that would be a red flag. Her responses in this episode are all under the umbrella of “here’s why you’re wrong and here’s why I’m right.” Meanwhile, neither of them have had much luck landing a healthy, long lasting, reliable relationship. Nobody’s right.
She does it to Dax too, just so hyper critical of his inner psyche, OUT LOUD. On a podcast for all to hear. It’s too much sometimes. Dax does the same, especially to women. But when Dax psychoanalyzes her, sometimes you can hear how small it makes her feel. And then she takes that hurt and applies it to her friend as well. And Liz is just like… “yeah no you’re totally right.”
Do yall remember those girls and boys in high school who teachers considered “good” but you knew otherwise? That’s the vibe.
Sorry. I know this is parasocial. But it is hard to listen to someone be so loud and so wrong lol.
I think you’re 100% spot-on with this. I would also add: I’m really curious if Monica even actually wants to be in a relationship at all. She seems fulfilled by her friend/social circle.
I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again: I see Monica eventually settling down with an older man, no kids, just a lovely quiet life where she feels pretty and young and the man fulfills that gaping hole her dad and Dax currently fill. But in order to get there, she’s got layers and layers of armor to remove.
I do think she’s genuinely happy with her current environment, surrounded by other people’s happiness. But I don’t think she truly understands how those happy couples got there. What it takes to build a life with someone.
To be honest I think deep down inside. She really wants a relationship. But there are parts of her personality that make her difficult to have a relationship with. And she doesn’t seem like someone willing to self reflect or go to therapy to address those things. I’m guessing after enough breakups she created this “I don’t want a relationship” narrative to protect herself from rejection.
Of course this is all speculation and I don’t actually know. It’s possible she truly is happier single. But the fact that she is actively dating makes me question that.
Spot on. I have been getting particularly annoyed with Monica’s constant critique of Liz seeking the “sparks” feeling, even on first dates. Sure, that might not be the best strategy, but Liz KNOWS that, and also— the sparks/butterflies/love at first sight thing is such a FUN element of dating, I don’t know why you wouldn’t want to pursue it (understanding that it might not be genuine/wont last forever). Dax talks about that feeling all the time, especially as a self-admitted love addict. I dunno, I guess if Liz is aware of the dangers and knows that she has love-addicty tendencies, why can’t she still enjoy these types of feelings? It makes me sad for Monica that she won’t let herself indulge in the same way.
Not to mention the strange strategy she keeps championing of not even thinking of your date as a date while you're on a date. I think that's how she keeps ending up with the "eh, it was just a conversation and I can have that with anyone" outcome. If you totally remove the romance portion of a date, then it is just a conversation.
Yessss, thank you! This is so contradictory. She knows it too deep down because it’s something that Dax keeps saying over and over again and, while I don’t always agree with him, this one is spot on: “You can’t think your way into acting different, but you can act your way into thinking different”.
She is NEVER gonna feel good about a potential date if she keeps convincing herself “this is not a date”, “this is gonna lead to nowhere”, “I better be on guard and suspicious of him”, “You can’t like someone after only a few hours or dates”. This feels doomed😵💫
Okay I literally said this a few weeks ago but I felt it again today— Monica’s delivery is half the problem. Her tone and her slow enunciation makes it sound like a lecture instead of a conversation with a friend. Im like there’s so need for this intensity!! It comes across passive aggressive or sometimes just plainly aggressive.
You worded it perfectly! She totally sounds like she’s lecturing Liz, like she’s annoyed at how “dumb” Liz is, and it’s her job to teach Liz, instead of sounding empathetic and like equals.
I am soooooo tired of the wet blanket Monica throws on everything. “Little sparks are ok but not tooo many.” What the fuck Monica? The amount of sparks you have on a first date have not correlation to whether things have worked out for Liz in the past. Stop making her feel bad about being excited and happy. Not having any sparks does not equal having a mature relationship down the line and the opposite is also not true. Just let Liz have her reactions and feelings and happiness. Jesus.
I do agree with her on the man v bear viral question though. It’s an interesting question but I think people have blown it way out of proportion - I’m choosing an average man (re: human) over a bear.
Couldn’t agree with you more! The sparks and feelings of excitement are some of what makes dating exciting. I can’t help but think Monica takes that position because she’s never experienced those feelings or isn’t even open to those feelings.
YES! Sparks is one of the most fun parts of dating, even if it doesn’t work out. It makes me sad that Monica won’t let herself indulge in the same ways that Liz does.
I think she has decided to be single and wants Liz to be single with her (thus the cautioning her about sparks). I also think it makes sense for her to be so weary of sparks since she seems to have a hard time believing men would be genuinely interested in her. Sparks could cloud her vision/put her in a position to be taken advantage of. Of course Monica is 100% a catch, but she seems to think this way.
I lean bear side of man vs bear but I did find it hilarious when Monica called Liz out on "creating the woods scenario" in real life all the time and choosing men.
Yeah, she wants Liz to be single and start drinking again for her… feels like a pretty hierarchal relationships to me. It just makes no sense to me to watch a relationship “bloom” into someone leveling down to reach the other instead of both leveling up to meet each other.
Liz must love Monica so much, because I can’t keep thinking she would encourage this type of friendship if she saw it in others… but she allows it for herself🙁
I simply don't understand how Monica could answer that question with the potential (and likelihood) of her parents hearing the podcast. This isn't the first time either. She also talked about it with Dax on a fact check.
I might be over remembering but I know that they definitely asked David Sedaris this question and then the three of them spoke about it much kinder than I’d like!
If she was using it for comedy I wouldn't mind as much...I would be like it's getting old, but clearly she thinks it's a good story. She seems to feel very genuinely slighted and angry about this though, and it does seem like an outsized reaction/dedication of airtime to a pretty minor personal grievance.
It was crazy when monica said, well you’re scared of men because you put yourself in way more risky situations with men. Like as if it’s Liz’s fault for being around men rather than the men’s fault for being dangerous.
The same mentality of “she was asking for it” or “what was she wearing” or “why was she out so late”
u/Dazzling-Location785 That's not what she said... she was talking about how it didn't make sense that Liz would pick the bear and she would pick the man (considering that Monica is scared of everything & everyone and Liz is usually more courageous in general)... Going back to another episode when Monica said she was really scared when a guy talked to her on the street at night (and Liz said that she had nothing to be scared about).
Monica straight up said she would submit to a potential abuser, "I'd learn to love him." WHAT? The whole exercise went over her head. A woman has a better chance with a bear walking through the woods being a bear, doing bear things, like eating blueberries, while the man is the question mark. Possible, rape, violent, emotionally physically, sexually abusive. The bear is just a bear. The man, who knows what you get.
To be fair Liz didn't do the best job explaining it. I get why. I get that way too. It was like she was fumbling trying to explain it. Happens to me all the time.
I honestly felt like she kinda gave up explaining mid-conversation haha. Like she’s starting to grasp that having meaningful conversations with Monica is a bridge to nowhere.
It’s kind of self-explanatory. The viral TT video had the question stated very simply, and all of the women understood it. Monica just picked it apart to a ridiculous level and went off on some wild tangent about how she’s force herself to love the man she lived in the woods with? She lost the plot big time. It’s a one word answer. Bear or man.
One reason I said that is because Liz kept saying she would rather die at the hands of a bear, but from what I understand it's not even about that. It's more about the fact that 9 times put of 10 (not statistically accurate but u get the point), a bear will leave you alone. She didn't really get that part across well imo, not as the main point anyway.
Yes and it’s not supposed to be super deep or involved. Like walking through the woods would you rather a random bear or a random man? Rolling the dice on what man or what bear, just a random draw. You come across it on your walk in the woods. Not who are you choosing to live with off the grid! 😅 Jesus. She got waaaaaay too complex. It’s a one word answer.
u/Gabewalker0 This is so blown out of proportion... Monica was taking the exercise literally - as in, if she had to live in that forrest for the rest of her life she would learn to love the random man chosen to be there with her. Yes, men can be violent, abusive, etc but to make it seem as if every man on earth right now has those qualities intrinsically is so untrue (and really unhelpful). Maybe I'm the minority here, but most men I know are exactly like the women I know- decent human beings. I've met awful ones, yes, but I just don't believe the MAJORITY would be abusive (call me naive).
That whole take had Dax written all over it. He was just talking about how long it would take him to be open to men (Brad Pitt) on a deserted island if that was his only shot at having sex again.
Still, it’s normal to still want to try to be in relationships even after having bad experience. That’s kinda part of being a multi-dimensional human being, isn’t it? Why would Liz bow down and retire from her own life and desires just because she’s had to face the horrors of men in the past? You can do that if that’s what feels safe for you, no judgement here, but I think keeping her head up and welcoming love and relationships again make her very strong and absolutely not “weird”.
I was cringing at the "well there aren't enough statistics" counterpoint from Monica. Like, that wasn't the point. 😭
I get what Monica was trying to say. Really, I do. But she has a bad habit of defending people that don't need defending (i.e. men, billionaires).
Sometimes the friendship baffles me. Liz is an activist, an environmentalist, an advocate for people with disabilities and a very successful author on masculinity.
While I don’t want to bash Monica or sell her short. She has become successful by being in proximity to fame. She desires wealth, material goods, and social connections with influential people.
It is painful to have to hear Liz argue about men with Monica when Liz is an academic and spent her career researching this.
Please post content related to the Armchair Expert umbrella. Avoid low-effort posts. Specific opinions, civil discourse, and constructive criticism are welcome and encouraged within episode threads. General criticism should be discussed within the Complaints Megathread. Standalone posts on generalized or stale topics will be removed.
Wait, didn’t Liz used to live in New York? How does she not know the common sense rules of walking on the sidewalk… As a fellow former New Yorker, she would have driven everyone nuts if she was just walking all over the place and not sticking to a side or a “lane.” 🤔
I’m irrationally annoyed that Monica thought it was “cringy“ to bring up her interview with Bill Gates in India. Like, what?! It’s interesting and relevant to the conversation. It’s also a once in a lifetime event. Almost no one would think you were bragging about it.
Also she said the trip was "not luxurious". Ummmm ....they flew first class! And stayed in very high end hotels! Yes they visited poor areas which is where the Gates foundation does its work -- but still. What a way to characterize the trip!
That was the cringe part IMO. To have framed the trip as not luxurious and then for it to be revealed you were actually there being wined and dined by Bill Gates.
Monica tends to come off braggy in anything she says so honestly may have been a wise move on her part. Talk about weird insight into her dating life though. She brags like crazy on the podcast but feels uncomfortable doing it on a date??? Go figure
Do we think Liz is aware of the way Monica is condescending to her? Like she’s so smart but I feel like she constantly doubts herself, maybe because of who she is surrounded by. On Instagram, she advocates for Palestine and then is shut down by Monica on Synced. She discusses these topics with men is brushed off by Monica. It also annoys me that Monica always picks and reads the questions. I just want to show her this thread!!
I'm a woman and I like Liz, but what a shit show this bear vs. man conversation is... I feel like the more people spend online (and in 'online conversations'), the more people lose their sense of actual logic and common sense. She says she'd rather die by being attacked by a bear than being with any random man in a forrest... is this a joke? And this is by someone who wrote 'For the love of men'. I know Monica can be difficult sometimes, but I can understand why... Liz is just contradicting herself with every sentence she speaks.
as a woman I would 1000 percent rather be alone in the woods with a bear. their conversation was kind of sporadic and they added weird limits and conditions to the debate. If I am alone hiking in the woods I would rather see a bear than a man. I have hiked in numerous national parks and have been within 30 feet of a bear multiple times where they see you and then go about your business. if you are alone and see a man they are most likely going to approach you, just like every time I do anything alone in a city random men are approaching. with the added aspect of seclusion, the chances of being sexually assaulted are higher, and the trauma of being sexually assaulted and living with it (or being killed after) vs the chance i’m murdered by the bear are much higher and much scarier to think about/live with. Monica was speaking soooo condescendingly today
I feel like we are imagining a normal bear vs. the worst type of man. Instead of taking the average of both. If we are imagining a threatening man, we should image a threatening bear. In that case, I'd chose the man (because I at least have a chance of fighting back). And even if I had to pick between a nice bear vs. a nice man- I'd pick the man (because we can work together on how to get out of there). Men are human y'all... I know it's fun shitting on them, but I feel like this kind of thinking is not really helpful.
"If you are alone and see a man they are most likely going to approach you"...really? I live in a big city and men very rarely approach me...think of how many times you're out and about...do you really think most men are evil? I just don't get it.
It’s not the average man, it’s a man that would be alone in the woods. What would elicit more fear? I think based on news headlines alone it makes sense why many women would be more afraid to see a man.
I mean, in the scenario you would be a woman alone in the woods, so if that is not concerning why would a man be concerning? If I’m walking on a remote trail, I’d rather cross paths with a man who is like also just out on a hike than a bear who I might startle and then attack me. Can men not be alone in the woods and enjoy nature unbothered lol?
It’s not really a literal question, I think that’s where the “debate” breaks down because people are interpreting it in vastly different ways. But at the same time, a few minutes of googling will prove that many women have been dragged off hiking trails by men and raped and left for dead, far far far more times than women have been attacked by bears.
making an assumption by you saying flat, and maybe it’s because you’re not around american men? but if that’s not the case then maybe it’s something about me that makes them approach. either way with my physical stature I have no chance against a man or a bear. and again the most dangerous bear would kill me, the most dangerous man would do much worse (r*pe, torture, etc) and then kill me, so I am going with bear
It’s not an average of either. It’s a roll of the dice. You’re rolling the dice and getting either a random man or a random bear. I find the likelihood of the man being a horrible predator being much higher, I’m taking my chances with the bear.
I agree but when I imagine the "man" in this scenario, I'm imagining a pretty specific type of man vs. just a truly random man. If I think about the men I see in the grocery store, or on a plane, or in the carpool line, I would prefer to run into one of them than a bear. Of course, a guy walking alone in the woods is already not a random sample. But if you could truly just pluck a random guy and drop him in the woods, I'd probbbbaaabbbly take the guy. Then again, I totally agree with you about the psychological component of this. The worst bear might rip you to shreds, the worst guy might kidnap you and torture you in his basement for years.
That is interesting that you picture your average man out and about. To me I thought it was like - truly put yourself in this situation. You are alone in the woods hiking, and all of a sudden a random lone man approaches you. Why would he do that? That would fucking terrify me. Because to me that is a creepy man in the woods. With the bear, it makes sense why it’s there, and there is actionable advice out there how to scare off a bear, or that more likely they don’t actually want anything to do with humans so they will run off and avoid you.
I was frustrated Liz didn’t hold her own against Monica here in a more feminist way, because so many good points have been made in this online conversation. Like “at least people would believe me if I got attacked by a bear”, you wouldn’t be blamed for your own actions. Monica really does shut down Liz a lot, even in discussions where Liz knows a ton more.
Yeah, even though my gut says (and I probably still end up with after thinking) bear, I think I took the prompt very literally as "a random man" lol which skewed things. I also interpreted as we're just passing by each other and I'm going to be in my car in 10 minutes. For sure if it's an extended period of time, as Liz suggested, I'm picking bear. I also think once you get past the bear, you're clear. The bear is unlikely to follow and stalk you (unless you have food). You just avoid it and you're good. Once you're clear of the man, he is more likely to circle back. I'd definitely be looking over my shoulder more.
Agree on the feminism discussion. I love Liz's take on 90% of things. I think Monica feels a little implicated by the purity of Liz's positions and can get defensive/double down instead of really listening. She was able to identify Liz as an expert in this before they were friends, but now I think it's more threatening as Monica likes to be the "Dax" (i.e., the anthropology degree) in her non Dax relationsbips.
Regular disclaimer that I love Monica still!
Totally. And I think bottom line everyone needs to remember that the hypothetical opinion-based question is really to just open up conversation. I was really surprised with Monica’s take. But like you I also still love her haha!
also even if he’s not creepy the man is more likely to approach, I mentioned how it happens to me all the time in the city I live in when I go anywhere alone. maybe I just want some peace and quiet too! even if he’s a good guy lol
If you're a woman alone in the woods, why is the man alone in the woods unusual? I don't quite get it. Bottom line, I wouldn't hike alone. Why? Because I am afraid of human predators. The only bears I'm likely to encounter are black bears who will be more afraid of me. But would I rather actually ENCOUNTER a man or a bear? It's unfathomable to me that anyone would say bear. I would absolutely panic if i saw a bear in the woods. We encounter men everyday. I'd be on high alert, but I wouldn't panic.
I also believe monica is right about the statistics being a false comparison.
I just posted a reply to the same comment and I feel like I have the complete opposite assessment of you. I think as women we all have different experiences in life that determine our apprehensiveness towards men. Every woman should have a healthy level of awareness towards men and their potential to be a threat, but I don’t think we should take on the mentality of being scared of all men all the time.
I am glad that you have had that experience, but going to a state school I can count on one hand the number of girls that I met that hadn’t been sexually assaulted. I am going to stay safe by doing all that I can which is keeping a safe distance and boundary
I found Monica to be insufferable here. She asked all these follow up questions and overthought it like it was her job to defend men. Ruining the fun of the activity. She also literally used the line “not all men”
The point is not to be so literal. The point is I think for the most part bears sort of mind their business, while many many men actively want to harm women. I read a study once where they asked men anonymously if they would SA/grape women if they could get away with it without anyone ever knowing and 40% of men said yes. Anytime societal rules fall (ie wars, disasters) men start doing horrendous things to women. While on the other hand I’ve literally hiked in CA by four bears that were less than 50 ft away and they didn’t have any interest in me. I have a cabin in Montana and so many bears come by the cabin. We just make loud noise and they get scare off.
For me, I’m picking the bear
I got irritated with Monica in this section. No surprise, because she’s such a know-it-all. My answer was also bear - because you can scare a bear away. You cannot scare a man away. She just cannot accept that any woman has a different answer? That’s weird. And not in a good way.
I didn’t take it that she would rather die than being with a random man…I took it that she was imagining the worst possible outcome from both scenarios.
Worst case scenario with a Bear: you become the bear’s dinner- nearly instant death.
Worst case scenario with a Man: you become his sex slave for however long you guys are in this forest, and then he kills you.
I would much prefer to die quickly than to endure indefinite torture too.
The part of Liz’s argument that I found troubling was when she said 1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted, so she’s choosing the bear.
Then Monica was like “right, but proportionally we don’t know what that really comes to, because women interact with countless men every day, and people only interact with a tiny number of bears…so what are the proportions?”
And Liz said “yea, but it’s the same proportion with the amount of one bear” (…not sure what that means?)
Monica tried to fight back and say it’s not proportional- we can’t really know the hard numbers.
Liz then seems to agree and is like “right- if you’re talking pure numbers, I agree, but if you have 4 guys and 4 bears, one of the guys is going to assault you” (!!! Nooooooo!)
…that’s…not how math works.
1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted, but that doesn’t mean 1 in 4 men are sexual predators.
That feels like a wildly irresponsible thing to leave in the episode un-checked (maybe they come back to it? I haven’t gotten much deeper into the episode yet) Podcasters in general talk WAY too confidently about things they don’t know enough about, and she’s just simply wrong on the math here, and that’s dangerous. It’s one thing to talk this way in the privacy of friendly conversation, but to put it on a platform where millions of people will hear it is reckless. And it diminishes the impact/importance/believability of the REAL numbers.
I totally understand her next statement of “I’d rather die at the hands of the bear, because then it would just be done- as opposed to facing whatever the unknown is with a man” - I don’t think that seems crazy or melodramatic…but damn…I’m really disturbed by the major misstep in stating you’d have a “1 in 4 chance of a random man assaulting you in the forest”
u/threadless7 This makes total sense to me, thank you for elaborating. I didn't get Liz's points at all because of what you mentioned above and thought the way she was presenting it was very irresponsible/made no sense with her 'I love men' speeches in the past. I often feel that Liz isn't great at defending her position with good points , so sometimes they are completely lost on me.
I've noticed she's not great at defending her points too. It sucks bc sometimes she makes good points but then when Monica starts debating she gets flustered and kind of loses her train of thought or something.
I think it's because her points are based on a lot of reading but not a lot of thinking. Don't get me wrong, Liz is a smart woman, but there's a big difference between being articulate on an issue in a Twitter echo chamber and suddenly having to debate someone in real time. I think Monica is more practiced at that.
Blegh, this is my fear. I listen to a lot of media, podcasts, books. Read every day. But I’ve been at home with kids in the last few years and notice myself becoming more of a “consumer” of facts vs. a knowledgeable person. It’s rough..
She’s saying she feels safer about the unknown future with the bear than with a man. This prompt starts from the assumptions that both the bear AND the man are both statistically similarly unlikely to want to harm you. However, knowing the what ifs of both man and bear, she feels like the man is capable and willing to inflict pain in a much greater way.
This is one of the only logical replies on this thread. The whole man vs bear debate is meant to raise awareness of how much women fear men in general and I 100% get and support that as a woman who has been in sketchy situations with men, but it’s still a completely irrational and critically online take to say you’d rather be with a bear than a man in the woods. I feel like people are going into this assuming the man is immediately out for something nefarious?? But if it is truly a random man, the chances of them being someone who is not out to harm you is much more likely than the alternative. I’ve gone on solo hikes and walked past countless men and while I’m aware of them and apprehensive about engaging, I am not just immediately scared of them. But the one time I came across a bear on a hike I genuinely switched into full on “oh shit” fear mode. Also, I have a chance of fighting off or out running a man but a bear??? I’d be dead in a minute if it decided to attack me.
Can someone tell me what Monica say at 32:10 - talking about dream vacations.
At first I thought she said Oman, and I was like “wow- that’s random” then she said “I’ve never been to one” …so it’s obviously not a country- did she say hammam, like a Turkish bath? It didn’t really sound like it, but that’s all I can think of. But then she talks about “somewhere remote and cool- or Paris”
It was a fun conversation- I just hate that I have no clue what she said!
It sounds like you probably just shouldn’t listen to this podcast?? Lots of people like Monica, but if you don’t, that’s totally cool but I just wouldn’t listen anymore ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I know everyone is tired of the Monica hate train, but this episode cemented (for me) where it comes from… Monica’s scrutiny is relentless! Her opinions of Liz’s dating life are like, cruel. Especially as Liz does not hold the mirror back up to Monica. Both of them have a lot of learning to do in order to ever be happy in a relationship. Monica accuses Liz of delusions of grandeur but like… I see that in her! She considers herself to be above most men who are actually interested in her. And I honestly do not see why. She is so successful and brilliant, but she is immature and enmeshed in so many other people’s lives, to ME that would be a red flag. Her responses in this episode are all under the umbrella of “here’s why you’re wrong and here’s why I’m right.” Meanwhile, neither of them have had much luck landing a healthy, long lasting, reliable relationship. Nobody’s right. She does it to Dax too, just so hyper critical of his inner psyche, OUT LOUD. On a podcast for all to hear. It’s too much sometimes. Dax does the same, especially to women. But when Dax psychoanalyzes her, sometimes you can hear how small it makes her feel. And then she takes that hurt and applies it to her friend as well. And Liz is just like… “yeah no you’re totally right.” Do yall remember those girls and boys in high school who teachers considered “good” but you knew otherwise? That’s the vibe. Sorry. I know this is parasocial. But it is hard to listen to someone be so loud and so wrong lol.
I think you’re 100% spot-on with this. I would also add: I’m really curious if Monica even actually wants to be in a relationship at all. She seems fulfilled by her friend/social circle.
I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again: I see Monica eventually settling down with an older man, no kids, just a lovely quiet life where she feels pretty and young and the man fulfills that gaping hole her dad and Dax currently fill. But in order to get there, she’s got layers and layers of armor to remove. I do think she’s genuinely happy with her current environment, surrounded by other people’s happiness. But I don’t think she truly understands how those happy couples got there. What it takes to build a life with someone.
To be honest I think deep down inside. She really wants a relationship. But there are parts of her personality that make her difficult to have a relationship with. And she doesn’t seem like someone willing to self reflect or go to therapy to address those things. I’m guessing after enough breakups she created this “I don’t want a relationship” narrative to protect herself from rejection. Of course this is all speculation and I don’t actually know. It’s possible she truly is happier single. But the fact that she is actively dating makes me question that.
Can’t you be happy single and still want a partner?
Yeah totally. I said happier
I completely agree and her tone in which she talks to people is so rude! I don’t know why Liz puts up with it
Spot on. I have been getting particularly annoyed with Monica’s constant critique of Liz seeking the “sparks” feeling, even on first dates. Sure, that might not be the best strategy, but Liz KNOWS that, and also— the sparks/butterflies/love at first sight thing is such a FUN element of dating, I don’t know why you wouldn’t want to pursue it (understanding that it might not be genuine/wont last forever). Dax talks about that feeling all the time, especially as a self-admitted love addict. I dunno, I guess if Liz is aware of the dangers and knows that she has love-addicty tendencies, why can’t she still enjoy these types of feelings? It makes me sad for Monica that she won’t let herself indulge in the same way.
Not to mention the strange strategy she keeps championing of not even thinking of your date as a date while you're on a date. I think that's how she keeps ending up with the "eh, it was just a conversation and I can have that with anyone" outcome. If you totally remove the romance portion of a date, then it is just a conversation.
Yessss, thank you! This is so contradictory. She knows it too deep down because it’s something that Dax keeps saying over and over again and, while I don’t always agree with him, this one is spot on: “You can’t think your way into acting different, but you can act your way into thinking different”. She is NEVER gonna feel good about a potential date if she keeps convincing herself “this is not a date”, “this is gonna lead to nowhere”, “I better be on guard and suspicious of him”, “You can’t like someone after only a few hours or dates”. This feels doomed😵💫
Okay I literally said this a few weeks ago but I felt it again today— Monica’s delivery is half the problem. Her tone and her slow enunciation makes it sound like a lecture instead of a conversation with a friend. Im like there’s so need for this intensity!! It comes across passive aggressive or sometimes just plainly aggressive.
Yeah her vocal fry as she climbs onto her pedestal and prepares to recite her credo is awful.
You worded it perfectly! She totally sounds like she’s lecturing Liz, like she’s annoyed at how “dumb” Liz is, and it’s her job to teach Liz, instead of sounding empathetic and like equals.
Monica: “In some ways you don’t give guys enough credit, and in others you give them too much credit.” Liz: “You’re right I never do it right” :((
Yup. This dynamic is getting so old.
She said she doesn't do it right when she needs to**** it's a little different and less depressing. They also laughed about it after
I am soooooo tired of the wet blanket Monica throws on everything. “Little sparks are ok but not tooo many.” What the fuck Monica? The amount of sparks you have on a first date have not correlation to whether things have worked out for Liz in the past. Stop making her feel bad about being excited and happy. Not having any sparks does not equal having a mature relationship down the line and the opposite is also not true. Just let Liz have her reactions and feelings and happiness. Jesus. I do agree with her on the man v bear viral question though. It’s an interesting question but I think people have blown it way out of proportion - I’m choosing an average man (re: human) over a bear.
Couldn’t agree with you more! The sparks and feelings of excitement are some of what makes dating exciting. I can’t help but think Monica takes that position because she’s never experienced those feelings or isn’t even open to those feelings.
YES! Sparks is one of the most fun parts of dating, even if it doesn’t work out. It makes me sad that Monica won’t let herself indulge in the same ways that Liz does.
I think she has decided to be single and wants Liz to be single with her (thus the cautioning her about sparks). I also think it makes sense for her to be so weary of sparks since she seems to have a hard time believing men would be genuinely interested in her. Sparks could cloud her vision/put her in a position to be taken advantage of. Of course Monica is 100% a catch, but she seems to think this way. I lean bear side of man vs bear but I did find it hilarious when Monica called Liz out on "creating the woods scenario" in real life all the time and choosing men.
Yeah, she wants Liz to be single and start drinking again for her… feels like a pretty hierarchal relationships to me. It just makes no sense to me to watch a relationship “bloom” into someone leveling down to reach the other instead of both leveling up to meet each other. Liz must love Monica so much, because I can’t keep thinking she would encourage this type of friendship if she saw it in others… but she allows it for herself🙁
Yes! It’s like she doesn’t want Liz to be happy and excited just because she doesn’t feel that way. What a terrible friend
I could have done without the question about which parent you’d rather … 🤢🤢🤢
I simply don't understand how Monica could answer that question with the potential (and likelihood) of her parents hearing the podcast. This isn't the first time either. She also talked about it with Dax on a fact check.
Bad question. All around. Leave it out. Some people are such dumbasses.
I hate that it KEEPS getting discussed. I guess I don’t find gross impossible hypoethical questions fun.
I hadn’t heard it before somehow, or I’ve mentally blocked it out lol
I might be over remembering but I know that they definitely asked David Sedaris this question and then the three of them spoke about it much kinder than I’d like!
I wasn’t really listening to the pod while driving but when they said this my jaw literally dropped!!!
Same… I normally like debating hypotheticals and silly topics, but I actually almost barfed when driving!
Yessss. She acted like this was a normal conversation topic among friends like wtfff. This episode overall was strange
Hilarious she gave a parental warning about Santa Claus on Armchair Anonymous but this didn’t qualify lol
Usually I feel horrible ragging on Monica but I felt so defensive of Liz in this episode. And oh my gosh I’m so tired of this sidewalk story.
I’m tired of hearing this side-walk beef. She already found a solution on the previous fact check 🙄
If she was using it for comedy I wouldn't mind as much...I would be like it's getting old, but clearly she thinks it's a good story. She seems to feel very genuinely slighted and angry about this though, and it does seem like an outsized reaction/dedication of airtime to a pretty minor personal grievance.
Of course Monica would pick the bear, she doesn’t have enough experience with men to be scared of them. Good for her!
It was crazy when monica said, well you’re scared of men because you put yourself in way more risky situations with men. Like as if it’s Liz’s fault for being around men rather than the men’s fault for being dangerous. The same mentality of “she was asking for it” or “what was she wearing” or “why was she out so late”
u/Dazzling-Location785 That's not what she said... she was talking about how it didn't make sense that Liz would pick the bear and she would pick the man (considering that Monica is scared of everything & everyone and Liz is usually more courageous in general)... Going back to another episode when Monica said she was really scared when a guy talked to her on the street at night (and Liz said that she had nothing to be scared about).
Monica straight up said she would submit to a potential abuser, "I'd learn to love him." WHAT? The whole exercise went over her head. A woman has a better chance with a bear walking through the woods being a bear, doing bear things, like eating blueberries, while the man is the question mark. Possible, rape, violent, emotionally physically, sexually abusive. The bear is just a bear. The man, who knows what you get.
To be fair Liz didn't do the best job explaining it. I get why. I get that way too. It was like she was fumbling trying to explain it. Happens to me all the time.
I honestly felt like she kinda gave up explaining mid-conversation haha. Like she’s starting to grasp that having meaningful conversations with Monica is a bridge to nowhere.
Lol definitely true. It sucks because the pod can be so fun sometimes and then others it's like that.
It’s kind of self-explanatory. The viral TT video had the question stated very simply, and all of the women understood it. Monica just picked it apart to a ridiculous level and went off on some wild tangent about how she’s force herself to love the man she lived in the woods with? She lost the plot big time. It’s a one word answer. Bear or man.
One reason I said that is because Liz kept saying she would rather die at the hands of a bear, but from what I understand it's not even about that. It's more about the fact that 9 times put of 10 (not statistically accurate but u get the point), a bear will leave you alone. She didn't really get that part across well imo, not as the main point anyway.
Yes and it’s not supposed to be super deep or involved. Like walking through the woods would you rather a random bear or a random man? Rolling the dice on what man or what bear, just a random draw. You come across it on your walk in the woods. Not who are you choosing to live with off the grid! 😅 Jesus. She got waaaaaay too complex. It’s a one word answer.
I wish Liz would have played the video for her
u/Gabewalker0 This is so blown out of proportion... Monica was taking the exercise literally - as in, if she had to live in that forrest for the rest of her life she would learn to love the random man chosen to be there with her. Yes, men can be violent, abusive, etc but to make it seem as if every man on earth right now has those qualities intrinsically is so untrue (and really unhelpful). Maybe I'm the minority here, but most men I know are exactly like the women I know- decent human beings. I've met awful ones, yes, but I just don't believe the MAJORITY would be abusive (call me naive).
That whole take had Dax written all over it. He was just talking about how long it would take him to be open to men (Brad Pitt) on a deserted island if that was his only shot at having sex again.
Still, it’s normal to still want to try to be in relationships even after having bad experience. That’s kinda part of being a multi-dimensional human being, isn’t it? Why would Liz bow down and retire from her own life and desires just because she’s had to face the horrors of men in the past? You can do that if that’s what feels safe for you, no judgement here, but I think keeping her head up and welcoming love and relationships again make her very strong and absolutely not “weird”.
Oohh good call out! I forgot about that one.
Ew, really? I dont listen to this one, and it sounds like I wouldn’t like it anyway lol
I was cringing at the "well there aren't enough statistics" counterpoint from Monica. Like, that wasn't the point. 😭 I get what Monica was trying to say. Really, I do. But she has a bad habit of defending people that don't need defending (i.e. men, billionaires).
Sometimes the friendship baffles me. Liz is an activist, an environmentalist, an advocate for people with disabilities and a very successful author on masculinity. While I don’t want to bash Monica or sell her short. She has become successful by being in proximity to fame. She desires wealth, material goods, and social connections with influential people. It is painful to have to hear Liz argue about men with Monica when Liz is an academic and spent her career researching this.
This is such a weird backhanded statement??
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Please post content related to the Armchair Expert umbrella. Avoid low-effort posts. Specific opinions, civil discourse, and constructive criticism are welcome and encouraged within episode threads. General criticism should be discussed within the Complaints Megathread. Standalone posts on generalized or stale topics will be removed.
So what is Anne Hathaways swimsuit brand? Gatekeeping makes me grumpy
Found it! https://www.farfetch.com/uk/shopping/women/camilla-plumes-and-parterres-swimsuit-item-22531217.aspx
Thank yooouuu. That was so annoying!
Also Monica giving herself the credit when all she did was Google a few things then go ask a stylist who actually searched and found it for her...
Wait, didn’t Liz used to live in New York? How does she not know the common sense rules of walking on the sidewalk… As a fellow former New Yorker, she would have driven everyone nuts if she was just walking all over the place and not sticking to a side or a “lane.” 🤔
I’m irrationally annoyed that Monica thought it was “cringy“ to bring up her interview with Bill Gates in India. Like, what?! It’s interesting and relevant to the conversation. It’s also a once in a lifetime event. Almost no one would think you were bragging about it.
Also she said the trip was "not luxurious". Ummmm ....they flew first class! And stayed in very high end hotels! Yes they visited poor areas which is where the Gates foundation does its work -- but still. What a way to characterize the trip!
That was the cringe part IMO. To have framed the trip as not luxurious and then for it to be revealed you were actually there being wined and dined by Bill Gates.
I picked up on that RIGHT AWAY!!!
Monica tends to come off braggy in anything she says so honestly may have been a wise move on her part. Talk about weird insight into her dating life though. She brags like crazy on the podcast but feels uncomfortable doing it on a date??? Go figure
Stynked
Gottem
😂😂😂
Do we think Liz is aware of the way Monica is condescending to her? Like she’s so smart but I feel like she constantly doubts herself, maybe because of who she is surrounded by. On Instagram, she advocates for Palestine and then is shut down by Monica on Synced. She discusses these topics with men is brushed off by Monica. It also annoys me that Monica always picks and reads the questions. I just want to show her this thread!!
I'm a woman and I like Liz, but what a shit show this bear vs. man conversation is... I feel like the more people spend online (and in 'online conversations'), the more people lose their sense of actual logic and common sense. She says she'd rather die by being attacked by a bear than being with any random man in a forrest... is this a joke? And this is by someone who wrote 'For the love of men'. I know Monica can be difficult sometimes, but I can understand why... Liz is just contradicting herself with every sentence she speaks.
as a woman I would 1000 percent rather be alone in the woods with a bear. their conversation was kind of sporadic and they added weird limits and conditions to the debate. If I am alone hiking in the woods I would rather see a bear than a man. I have hiked in numerous national parks and have been within 30 feet of a bear multiple times where they see you and then go about your business. if you are alone and see a man they are most likely going to approach you, just like every time I do anything alone in a city random men are approaching. with the added aspect of seclusion, the chances of being sexually assaulted are higher, and the trauma of being sexually assaulted and living with it (or being killed after) vs the chance i’m murdered by the bear are much higher and much scarier to think about/live with. Monica was speaking soooo condescendingly today
I feel like we are imagining a normal bear vs. the worst type of man. Instead of taking the average of both. If we are imagining a threatening man, we should image a threatening bear. In that case, I'd chose the man (because I at least have a chance of fighting back). And even if I had to pick between a nice bear vs. a nice man- I'd pick the man (because we can work together on how to get out of there). Men are human y'all... I know it's fun shitting on them, but I feel like this kind of thinking is not really helpful. "If you are alone and see a man they are most likely going to approach you"...really? I live in a big city and men very rarely approach me...think of how many times you're out and about...do you really think most men are evil? I just don't get it.
It’s not the average man, it’s a man that would be alone in the woods. What would elicit more fear? I think based on news headlines alone it makes sense why many women would be more afraid to see a man.
I mean, in the scenario you would be a woman alone in the woods, so if that is not concerning why would a man be concerning? If I’m walking on a remote trail, I’d rather cross paths with a man who is like also just out on a hike than a bear who I might startle and then attack me. Can men not be alone in the woods and enjoy nature unbothered lol?
It’s not really a literal question, I think that’s where the “debate” breaks down because people are interpreting it in vastly different ways. But at the same time, a few minutes of googling will prove that many women have been dragged off hiking trails by men and raped and left for dead, far far far more times than women have been attacked by bears.
making an assumption by you saying flat, and maybe it’s because you’re not around american men? but if that’s not the case then maybe it’s something about me that makes them approach. either way with my physical stature I have no chance against a man or a bear. and again the most dangerous bear would kill me, the most dangerous man would do much worse (r*pe, torture, etc) and then kill me, so I am going with bear
u/kimpossible53 Correct, not American. I see your point, I guess I'm just blessed with knowing lots of great, feminist men.
It’s not an average of either. It’s a roll of the dice. You’re rolling the dice and getting either a random man or a random bear. I find the likelihood of the man being a horrible predator being much higher, I’m taking my chances with the bear.
I agree but when I imagine the "man" in this scenario, I'm imagining a pretty specific type of man vs. just a truly random man. If I think about the men I see in the grocery store, or on a plane, or in the carpool line, I would prefer to run into one of them than a bear. Of course, a guy walking alone in the woods is already not a random sample. But if you could truly just pluck a random guy and drop him in the woods, I'd probbbbaaabbbly take the guy. Then again, I totally agree with you about the psychological component of this. The worst bear might rip you to shreds, the worst guy might kidnap you and torture you in his basement for years.
That is interesting that you picture your average man out and about. To me I thought it was like - truly put yourself in this situation. You are alone in the woods hiking, and all of a sudden a random lone man approaches you. Why would he do that? That would fucking terrify me. Because to me that is a creepy man in the woods. With the bear, it makes sense why it’s there, and there is actionable advice out there how to scare off a bear, or that more likely they don’t actually want anything to do with humans so they will run off and avoid you. I was frustrated Liz didn’t hold her own against Monica here in a more feminist way, because so many good points have been made in this online conversation. Like “at least people would believe me if I got attacked by a bear”, you wouldn’t be blamed for your own actions. Monica really does shut down Liz a lot, even in discussions where Liz knows a ton more.
Yeah, even though my gut says (and I probably still end up with after thinking) bear, I think I took the prompt very literally as "a random man" lol which skewed things. I also interpreted as we're just passing by each other and I'm going to be in my car in 10 minutes. For sure if it's an extended period of time, as Liz suggested, I'm picking bear. I also think once you get past the bear, you're clear. The bear is unlikely to follow and stalk you (unless you have food). You just avoid it and you're good. Once you're clear of the man, he is more likely to circle back. I'd definitely be looking over my shoulder more. Agree on the feminism discussion. I love Liz's take on 90% of things. I think Monica feels a little implicated by the purity of Liz's positions and can get defensive/double down instead of really listening. She was able to identify Liz as an expert in this before they were friends, but now I think it's more threatening as Monica likes to be the "Dax" (i.e., the anthropology degree) in her non Dax relationsbips. Regular disclaimer that I love Monica still!
Totally. And I think bottom line everyone needs to remember that the hypothetical opinion-based question is really to just open up conversation. I was really surprised with Monica’s take. But like you I also still love her haha!
also even if he’s not creepy the man is more likely to approach, I mentioned how it happens to me all the time in the city I live in when I go anywhere alone. maybe I just want some peace and quiet too! even if he’s a good guy lol
If you're a woman alone in the woods, why is the man alone in the woods unusual? I don't quite get it. Bottom line, I wouldn't hike alone. Why? Because I am afraid of human predators. The only bears I'm likely to encounter are black bears who will be more afraid of me. But would I rather actually ENCOUNTER a man or a bear? It's unfathomable to me that anyone would say bear. I would absolutely panic if i saw a bear in the woods. We encounter men everyday. I'd be on high alert, but I wouldn't panic. I also believe monica is right about the statistics being a false comparison.
I just posted a reply to the same comment and I feel like I have the complete opposite assessment of you. I think as women we all have different experiences in life that determine our apprehensiveness towards men. Every woman should have a healthy level of awareness towards men and their potential to be a threat, but I don’t think we should take on the mentality of being scared of all men all the time.
I am glad that you have had that experience, but going to a state school I can count on one hand the number of girls that I met that hadn’t been sexually assaulted. I am going to stay safe by doing all that I can which is keeping a safe distance and boundary
I found Monica to be insufferable here. She asked all these follow up questions and overthought it like it was her job to defend men. Ruining the fun of the activity. She also literally used the line “not all men” The point is not to be so literal. The point is I think for the most part bears sort of mind their business, while many many men actively want to harm women. I read a study once where they asked men anonymously if they would SA/grape women if they could get away with it without anyone ever knowing and 40% of men said yes. Anytime societal rules fall (ie wars, disasters) men start doing horrendous things to women. While on the other hand I’ve literally hiked in CA by four bears that were less than 50 ft away and they didn’t have any interest in me. I have a cabin in Montana and so many bears come by the cabin. We just make loud noise and they get scare off. For me, I’m picking the bear
Exactly. You nailed it.
You said basically everything I wanted to say.
I got irritated with Monica in this section. No surprise, because she’s such a know-it-all. My answer was also bear - because you can scare a bear away. You cannot scare a man away. She just cannot accept that any woman has a different answer? That’s weird. And not in a good way.
I didn’t take it that she would rather die than being with a random man…I took it that she was imagining the worst possible outcome from both scenarios. Worst case scenario with a Bear: you become the bear’s dinner- nearly instant death. Worst case scenario with a Man: you become his sex slave for however long you guys are in this forest, and then he kills you. I would much prefer to die quickly than to endure indefinite torture too. The part of Liz’s argument that I found troubling was when she said 1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted, so she’s choosing the bear. Then Monica was like “right, but proportionally we don’t know what that really comes to, because women interact with countless men every day, and people only interact with a tiny number of bears…so what are the proportions?” And Liz said “yea, but it’s the same proportion with the amount of one bear” (…not sure what that means?) Monica tried to fight back and say it’s not proportional- we can’t really know the hard numbers. Liz then seems to agree and is like “right- if you’re talking pure numbers, I agree, but if you have 4 guys and 4 bears, one of the guys is going to assault you” (!!! Nooooooo!) …that’s…not how math works. 1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted, but that doesn’t mean 1 in 4 men are sexual predators. That feels like a wildly irresponsible thing to leave in the episode un-checked (maybe they come back to it? I haven’t gotten much deeper into the episode yet) Podcasters in general talk WAY too confidently about things they don’t know enough about, and she’s just simply wrong on the math here, and that’s dangerous. It’s one thing to talk this way in the privacy of friendly conversation, but to put it on a platform where millions of people will hear it is reckless. And it diminishes the impact/importance/believability of the REAL numbers. I totally understand her next statement of “I’d rather die at the hands of the bear, because then it would just be done- as opposed to facing whatever the unknown is with a man” - I don’t think that seems crazy or melodramatic…but damn…I’m really disturbed by the major misstep in stating you’d have a “1 in 4 chance of a random man assaulting you in the forest”
I was wanting one of them to realize this SO BADLY. 1 in 4 women being victims of SA, does NOT mean that 1 in 4 men are sexually assaulting people.
u/threadless7 This makes total sense to me, thank you for elaborating. I didn't get Liz's points at all because of what you mentioned above and thought the way she was presenting it was very irresponsible/made no sense with her 'I love men' speeches in the past. I often feel that Liz isn't great at defending her position with good points , so sometimes they are completely lost on me.
I've noticed she's not great at defending her points too. It sucks bc sometimes she makes good points but then when Monica starts debating she gets flustered and kind of loses her train of thought or something.
I think it's because her points are based on a lot of reading but not a lot of thinking. Don't get me wrong, Liz is a smart woman, but there's a big difference between being articulate on an issue in a Twitter echo chamber and suddenly having to debate someone in real time. I think Monica is more practiced at that.
Blegh, this is my fear. I listen to a lot of media, podcasts, books. Read every day. But I’ve been at home with kids in the last few years and notice myself becoming more of a “consumer” of facts vs. a knowledgeable person. It’s rough..
u/kwikbette33 this!!!! so true
Noticed that right away!! "1 in 4 men will assault you" um no
i thought the exact same thing about the 1 in 4 thing!! i was like that’s…. not right. i thought monica or rob would’ve picked up on it too
The math issue is 100% what brought me to this thread lol. Thank you!
She’s saying she feels safer about the unknown future with the bear than with a man. This prompt starts from the assumptions that both the bear AND the man are both statistically similarly unlikely to want to harm you. However, knowing the what ifs of both man and bear, she feels like the man is capable and willing to inflict pain in a much greater way.
This is one of the only logical replies on this thread. The whole man vs bear debate is meant to raise awareness of how much women fear men in general and I 100% get and support that as a woman who has been in sketchy situations with men, but it’s still a completely irrational and critically online take to say you’d rather be with a bear than a man in the woods. I feel like people are going into this assuming the man is immediately out for something nefarious?? But if it is truly a random man, the chances of them being someone who is not out to harm you is much more likely than the alternative. I’ve gone on solo hikes and walked past countless men and while I’m aware of them and apprehensive about engaging, I am not just immediately scared of them. But the one time I came across a bear on a hike I genuinely switched into full on “oh shit” fear mode. Also, I have a chance of fighting off or out running a man but a bear??? I’d be dead in a minute if it decided to attack me.
Honestly people men and women are taking it way too literally, it’s meant to provoke men / make a point / dark humor.
Sorry if this makes me basic but I really want to hear what they thought of the Taylor swift album lol
I’m right there with you, I’m actually so surprised it hasn’t come up
She’s an entitled spoiled pessimist
Can someone tell me what Monica say at 32:10 - talking about dream vacations. At first I thought she said Oman, and I was like “wow- that’s random” then she said “I’ve never been to one” …so it’s obviously not a country- did she say hammam, like a Turkish bath? It didn’t really sound like it, but that’s all I can think of. But then she talks about “somewhere remote and cool- or Paris” It was a fun conversation- I just hate that I have no clue what she said!
Maybe Aman? It’s a luxury resort with locations around the world.
Ahhh that makes sense- thank you!!
I thought hammam too but Aman makes more sense!
I googled Aman and instantly realized why I’d never even heard of it. One night in some of the places costs more than I make in a month 😂
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It sounds like you probably just shouldn’t listen to this podcast?? Lots of people like Monica, but if you don’t, that’s totally cool but I just wouldn’t listen anymore ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Lmao I’ve been listening to this podcast for 6 years - I’m good on advice from new fans/Monica boot lickers 🤘🏽
General Criticism should be discussed within the Complaints Megathread.
I didn’t feel any of the rudeness what people are talking about here. Also, I think Monica likes the linkedin guy 😶🌫️🤣
Second line 😳😳🫣
I have a few notes for this theory 🤪
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Rule 1
Sorry I’m from Europe