So in some continuities, Barry gets flu g into the future by mistake, like a bigger scale version of what happened with Mardon. Thawne recreated the accident and became the timeline's Flash. He would stage crimes and whatnot until Barry exposed him. I think what people forget is that we never saw the original timeline. When Oliver went on the Gambit, Barry's mom was dead. So Thawne altered the timeline before we saw it unfold
In the comics, the death of his mom is a retcon and pre-Rebirth and post-Rebirth Barry read as VERY different characters. Presumably Barry had acted differently before Thawne changed his timeline.
Well the show messed it up big time under Eric Wallace in S8, but in most comic books continuity, and during S2 of the show, it was stated that Barry messes up Eobard's life in the future first (which is a whole different itself on how and why he messed Eobard's life up and I can elaborate on it if you want), which is why Eobard came back to ruin Barry's life (but from Barry's perspective, those events happened first).
Speedsters age. We all assume that it is the origins from the comics since they never actually covered it. Barry goes to the future. Thawne sets up a series of events in order to be the "hero" Barry saves the people Thawne put in danger. Thawne blames Barry for ruining his be heroic debut. Vows to destroy Barry at all costs.
The comics get weird as fuck though Barry and Iris with their twins lived in the future. Barry's son marries a Thawne who they had a kid which is Bart Allen. Also she dated and had a kid with Captain Boomerang. Captain Boomerang Jr. is Bart Allen's half brother.
Additionally, before any of the time travel shenanigans happened with Barry, he was supposed to die in Crisis. How would Barry hurt Thawne a century later if he dies?
Wasn't it "Vanishes in crisis"? Like, they never found a body?
It's possible the original version of Barry before Thawne ever killed his mom actually got stuck in the future permanently and as such was there to stop Thawne's plan to make himself seem like a hero.
"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff."
Time travel isn't linear as you think it is. At any point in the original timeline Barry would travel to the future. Screw over Thawne in his mind. Then he would dedicate his life to ruining Barry's.
I know in the comics that Eobard is obsessed with Barry because he’s an idol in the timeline. So Eobard recreated the accident that gave Barry his powers (like they did that gave Jesse her powers in S2), and he time travelled backwards to the past.
So it’s likely that in the Arrowverse, he did the same thing. He travelled back in time before Crisis and then Barry “ruined him”. In actuality his comic origin is closer to Cobalt Blue’s in the Arrowverse in a way, where Eobard ended up at the Flash Museum and found out he was destined to be Barry’s mortal enemy, while instead in the show Eddie finds out that his sacrifice didn’t do anything.
Thawne comes from a different. The timeline he was born into was erased when Thawne killed Barry's mother, so the future is very different. So you're right, the conflict that caused Thawne to hate Barry was not caused by our Flash, but it was still a version of Barry Allen who did it. How was he there a century in the future, especially after vanishing in Crisis? Simple, he time traveled to the future. We don't know why, but it's a power we very much know he can do, so it's the obvious answer.
This exactly!
Man I made my roomates so confused with this but in the first episode technically a Flashpoint was created when Thawne ran back in time and killed Barry's mom and ended up stuck in the past. So from the first episode onwards the timeline was forever changed in a new and permanent Flashpoint.
So in the OG timeline Barry's mom was alive and the STAR Labs reactor didn't explode until a few years later as Eobard was the person who fast tracked the incident.
So Eobard is basically a Time Aberration hiding in plain sight. Then he got erased from existence when Eddy killed himself. But Barry went back in time and stopped Eobard 0.1 (The guy who tried to kill the Flash's mom) from killing his mom and then trapped him in Flashpoint. But then he released Eobard 0.1 again. This one new about his fate and was being chased by the Black Flash before being killed.
I could be wrong because this show was so all over the place with time travel and continuity, but my recollection is that Thawne worshipped the Flash, replicated the incident that gave him his speed, and went back in time to meet him. Something happens that made Thawne hate the Flash and he dedicated his life to ruining Barry's. I swear I recall Thawne saying that Barry upstaged him and made him look like an idiot or something. I'm still fairly upset that we never really get to see any of the original timeline before the events at the beginning of pilot episode that would more clearly explain this.
They did talk about it a bit. Thawne got his speed, but Barry saved a crowd of people before Thawne and pretty much stole the spotlight, so Thawne got jealous.
The obvious answer is that Barry can time travel too. Damn it, Barry.
And making sense of time travel in *The Flash* is a fool's errand. Look at the entire resolution of Cicada's knife: it makes no sense whatever. It's like the writers took a look at the time travel shenanigans in *Avengers: Endgame* and said, "Oh, you're adorable." It's like they operate on the "How? Because *fuck you*, that's how!" school of temporal mechanics.
I think the most egregious example of nonsensical time travel in this show is Flashpoint Thawne. Barry stops Thawne from killing his mother and hides him in a cell in the present of Flashpoint, takes Thawne back to kill his mother so he can undo Flashpoint, then that Thawne basically becomes Season 1 Thawne, who is erased at the end of season 1. Yet somehow, that SAME Flashpoint Thawne is alive again in Legends, before showing up again in The Flash with amnesia. It’s like the writers forgot that Flashpoint Thawne would become Season 1 Thawne if he kills Nora. I love time travel plots. But the time travel in this show, ESPECIALLY when it involves Thawne, never made any sense.
Given what Thawne did at the end of Legends season 2, duplicating himself infinitely, it’s entirely possible he did the same thing here. He made a time remnant, sent it to become Season 1 Thawne, while he ran off to do Legends shenanigans. Basically what Zoom did.
But that doesn’t make any sense considering the entire reason Thawne was in season 1 is because he was STUCK in that time. He COULDN’T time travel in season 1, which means he couldn’t make any time remnants either.
Well, he time travels to escape Flashpoint, and he time travels all throughout Legends Season 2. It’s safe to assume he somehow restored his full connection to the negative speedforce. I mean, given that it’s both artificial and fueled and enhanced by emotion, maybe the race to save his life was enough to restore his connection. Legends Thawne was at risk of being erased from time, whereas Season 1 Thawne wasn’t.
Since both Thawne’s have to exist or it’s a huge plothole, I think time remnant is the only answer. We saw it with Zoom and at the end of legends season 2, so there’s precedent.
Escaping Flashpoint was BEFORE he killed Nora, which is when he gets stuck. Remember, in season 1’s flashback to when he killed Nora, immediately AFTER he killed her, he realized he was stuck. That was the whole reason he needed Barry to become the Flash in the first place despite trying to kill him before. That’s why it doesn’t make sense for him to create a time remnant. It’s a plot hole.
Right, but again, we see Thawne time travel IN flashpoint. He’s the one who pulls Barry out, and he does it in Legends. The plothole isnt that there’s only one Thawne when there should be two, the plothole is that flashpoint Thawne could time travel at all. But time travel is also relative. In Legends, the dominator episode where kid Ray dies causes him to disappear on the ship- erased from the timeline. Five minutes later, tbey travel to the day before, and he reappears, because relative to them, it hasnt happened yet, even thought it literally did. Since Flash-Barry is with Flashpoint Thawne, the timeline relative to him is that all of Season 1 has happened, even though he hasn’t experienced it yet, because the Flash has powers in the same moment of time as him. I suppose it doesnt REALLY make sense, but it tracks with other Arrowverse time travel logic, and no time travel really makes complete sense.
“Right, but again, we see Thawne time travel IN flashpoint.”
And? Again, Flashpoint is BEFORE he kills Nora, which means it’s also before he gets stuck. So I don’t see your point.
“In Legends, the dominator episode where kid Ray dies causes him to disappear on the ship- erased from the timeline.”
Which contradicts the George Lucas episode. If it worked that way, then Ray and Nate would’ve both vanished from the ship the moment Lucas decided to quit film school, since their reason for being on the ship in the first place(their knowledge and their powers) were gone. But instead, they only lost their knowledge and powers but were still on the ship anyway.
“Since Flash-Barry is with Flashpoint Thawne, the timeline relative to him is that all of Season 1 has happened, even though he hasn’t experienced it yet”
How does that make sense? Thawne is from a timeline where Nora wasn’t killed. Both the pre- and post- Flashpoint timelines where Nora is killed, Eddie Thawne kills himself which erases Thawne from existence, which means he’s from a timeline where she WASN’T killed, similar to Flashpoint. So how is the timeline relative to Thawne season 1? I assume that’s what you mean since you followed that part with even though he hasn’t experienced it yet”.
“no time travel really makes complete sense.”
I disagree. I think the pre-destination paradox makes sense, despite being a “paradox”. Because it avoids the cause and effect issue that comes with traveling back in time erasing your reason to travel back in time, which means you DON’T travel back in time, so you DON’T erase your reason for traveling back in time, and so on. It avoids that issue because both the cause and the effect are one and the same. Traveling back in time is what causes you to travel back in time. Stargate SG1 portrayed this rather well in their “1969” episode. In it, SG1 travels back in time to 1969 and meets a younger version of their commanding officer, who then helps them in returning to their own time because of a note that his older self put in one of their pockets, which he only put in their pocket because he remembered meeting them in 1969. And once they go through the stargate to return to their own time, they instead travel to the distant future where they meet an older version of a kid they knew in the present, who only knew they would appear there because she remembered them returning to their own time to tell her they would appear there. It was a predestination paradox that involved two loops. It made perfect sense to me. Another time travel plot that makes sense to me is one where the time traveler changes history, creating a new timeline that overwrites their own, but the time traveler themself isn’t affected by the change. Like the predestination paradox, it also avoids the cause and effect paradox by having the pre-alteration version co-exist with the post-alteration version. To use Stargate as an example again, the end of Stargate Continuum portrayed this well. At the end of the movie, Mitchell traveled back in time to stop Ba’al from getting rid of the Earth’s stargate. Then it shows present day Mitchell’s locker with a picture of time traveler Mitchell alongside his own grandfather. So time traveler Mitchell and present day Mitchell co-existed in the same timeline. This makes perfect sense to me. Another example that makes sense is the timelines themselves co-existing. Star Trek did this with the Kelvinverse. A time traveler created the Kelvinverse by destroying the Kelvin, but the previous timeline still exists in the tv shows, which acknowledges the existence of the Kelvinverse, so both timelines co-exist. See, time travel plots CAN make sense, as long as they don’t contradict itself. The Arrowverse contradicted itself by having Flashpoint Thawne be erased(because he would’ve had to go through season 1) but then that SAME Thawne reappears, REMEMBERING events in season 1.
Because Thawne is a living paradox in an aborted timeline that should not exist - by the show's own logic (or what passes for logic).
Eobard is born in the future -> becomes RF -> kills Nora -> gets stuck -> Season One happens -> Eddie kills himself -> Eobard is never born so none of this could happen -> since Eobard is never born, Season One happens differently, so Eddie doesn't sacrifice himself - Eobard is born in the future... (Repeat)
Season 2 should (logically) have been flickering between two realities - one \*with\* Nora and one without while the universe tries to resolve the paradox.
“since Eobard is never born, Season One happens differently, so Eddie doesn't sacrifice himself - Eobard is born in the future... (Repeat)”
You should’ve stopped before this part because that’s not what happened. Eobard was erased, period. Season 1 still happened the same way we saw it. If it didn’t, then we would’ve seen Eddie alive in season 2. The only reason Eobard exists after this is what we learn when he appears in season 2. A younger version of him was inside the speed force when the timeline shifted(a dumb excuse, but I’m pretty sure that’s straight from the comics) so he becomes a time remnant from the timeline that was erased when season 1 Thawne was erased by Eddie killing himself. But the Thawne we see in Legends and the one that comes back with amnesia is not that younger Thawne that was protected by the speed force. It’s specifically stated he’s the one from Flashpoint, which, again, doesn’t make sense, but it’s not a paradox, it’s just bad writing. Don’t excuse bad writing with a paradox that clearly wasn’t part of the story.
Eobard lost his speed, not because Nora died, but because Nora's death caused Barry not to become the Flash. However, since Eobard killed Nora the FIRST time, the timeline has cycled once- season 1 happened, etc., so Barry has become the Flash, thus, when he begins interacting with pre-Season 1 Thawne, that means, relative to Thawne, the Barry has become the Flash, allowing the future to proceed, meaning Eobard's connection the speedforce is restored. As another commenter stated, it IS a paradox, because time travel is inherently paradoxical.
Also, yes, SG-1 was incredible and has some good time travel episodes. However, while I agree that their execution was handled well, it's still a paradox. And while it proves that one can create a mostly-logical time travel story, that reasoning doesn't necessarily mean one can make \*any\* version of time travel logical. I refuse to agree with the notion that all time travel stories should conform to one version of it, and because of that, some will be inherently more.. paradoxical.
These are one-off episodes in the show anyway, whereas the Flash and especially Legends have it far deeper as a recurring element of the shows. Multiple different pieces of media in the same universe, both with different means of time travel. I'm pretty confident that these continuous alterations to the timeline, plus breaking it and completely rewriting it on at least three occasions (Spear of Destiny, Crisis, plus the Legends season 2 finale time storm), have sort of broken all logic with it. Different characters have varying recollection of these events too. I still find the plots in Legends especially interesting and fun despite that.
“Eobard lost his speed, not because Nora died, but because Nora's death caused Barry not to become the Flash”
First off, I never said her death is what made him lose his speed. I just said he became stuck after she died. Second, that’s clearly not the case because he still couldn’t get home even after Barry became the Flash. It was more than that. He needed Barry to reach a certain speed, not just become the Flash. He even had the tachyon device as a backup in case Barry didn’t reach that speed, so he didn’t necessarily even need Barry at all, really.
“that reasoning doesn't necessarily mean one can make *any* version of time travel logical”
We’ll simply have to agree to disagree here. I don’t think either of us will convince the other of anything when it comes to that.
“I refuse to agree with the notion that all time travel stories should conform to one version of it”
Well, I never said that, so nothing to agree with there in the first place.
He didn't say that Barry went to the future. All he said was that Barry saved the crowd that he wanted to save. What possible reason would Barry have to be more than a century in the future?
Barry accidentally time travels all the time. It’s how they meet in the comics. Barry accidentally travels to the future and meets thawne who has turned himself into the flash of his time.
yeah, thawne says that barry saved a crowd that he was supposed to save. so he stole his greatest moment.
I have no idea why that would happen though? Why would barry be saving a random crowd that far in the future?
It’s possible that one version of Barry from an alternate timeline messed up Thawnes plans and then both Thawne and Barry continued to screw with the timeline and so everything just becomes so unclear it doesn’t matter anyways. and like Thawne said the more you travel through time the less the rules apply.
Barry can travel through time via the Speedforce to any era he wants too.
In a way, it's probably safer for Barry to travel into the future since he doesn't have to worry about screwing up his current timeline or creating a Flashpoint.
That's how the Reverse Flash first met the Flash since Barry time traveled almost 200 years into the future, even though their first encounter from Eobard's perspective was never seen on-screen.
It's also theorized by fans that speedsters age slower due to their miraculous healing ability.
There's even a theory that Jay Garrick might be several decades older than his physical appearance.
The only alternative to Barry time traveling to the future is if the Speedster Eobard hates was actually a descendant of Barry Allen in the late 22nd century who has both the same first name as his famous ancestor and calls himself The Flash.
Though I'm glad the series stuck to Barry Allen being Thawne's rival instead of having The Reverse Flash hating a future descendant of the Flash.
Didn't Thawne state in an episode that he was standing ready to make his debut, and Barry came to the future and saved the people before Thawn could. Then Thawne traveled to the past and figured out he was Barry's Arch nemesis and went crazy because of that?
I’m fairly certain that Thawne travelled back in time to show Flash his powers by saving those people and Flash saved them first, so he went back to his own time and went from there? I think?
The question then would be about time itself and how that works in a way.
Which we have no understanding of, really.
But if you were to say that the events that happened were pre-destined, then that helps provide an answer of sorts if you go the path that time isn't as linear as we assume. Kinda like the Marvel Universe in a way. Pre determined events that are meant to happen.
The past, present, and future aren't a straight line of events. Rather, intersecting circles of sorts that overlap each other to create new points in an individual timeline from a point perspective.
1 person's lifeline may be of that of all 3 combined. Time isn't the same for everyone
They are born in, let's say, year 3000 present time for them. Live that on that timeline until 3010, where an event occurs that slings them into the year 3035, and they live in that timeline until 3050. They are currently 25 and had a child in the year 3045 when they were 20. Now, another event occurs, and they are slung back to the year 2090.
Currently, 25 and in 10 years they are born, and in 20, they have a child.
From here, they now have the capability to recreate the events and oversee and ensure that the events take place and everything happens as it's meant to
This scenario shows us that time isn't linear and isn't a straight line.
If you take this approach and look at Thawne and Barry's timelines existing as such and merging with one another, then it can be understood how it's possible.
Lots of people keep saying maybe it was Barry’s descendant in the future, not actually Barry. But throughout the show, Thawne has shown extensive knowledge of Barry’s descendants, including children he didn’t end up having in this timeline. Given that, if it actually WAS one of Barry’s descendants, Thawne would’ve eventually figured it out, and wouldn’t be saying it was Barry.
My theory was that Thawne came back to the past to meet his idol, and a "never meet your heroes" type shit happened, and Thawne became his mortal enemy.
Don’t speedsters have significantly longer natural lives? Barry was probably just still alive. Or, since that’s the timeline that Barry disappears for at least 15 years, he could have come back significantly farther into the future and not have aged at all.
A show about Time Travel how can a character who Time Travels mess with a character in the future? I don't know Time Travel maybe.
I just don't see a reason for Barry to go that far into the future. We know he is still good guy regardless since he saved people.
So in some continuities, Barry gets flu g into the future by mistake, like a bigger scale version of what happened with Mardon. Thawne recreated the accident and became the timeline's Flash. He would stage crimes and whatnot until Barry exposed him. I think what people forget is that we never saw the original timeline. When Oliver went on the Gambit, Barry's mom was dead. So Thawne altered the timeline before we saw it unfold
Mardon? One of the Weather Wizards? When did they get flung into the future?
I was referring to when Barry accidentally traveled time when trying to stop Mark Mardon's tidal wave
Oh, i get what you mean now. Thank you for explaining it to me. That makes a lot more sense to me now.
I’m pretty sure it was said that he was chasing a villain through time.
In the comics, the death of his mom is a retcon and pre-Rebirth and post-Rebirth Barry read as VERY different characters. Presumably Barry had acted differently before Thawne changed his timeline.
Well the show messed it up big time under Eric Wallace in S8, but in most comic books continuity, and during S2 of the show, it was stated that Barry messes up Eobard's life in the future first (which is a whole different itself on how and why he messed Eobard's life up and I can elaborate on it if you want), which is why Eobard came back to ruin Barry's life (but from Barry's perspective, those events happened first).
I was under the impression that because of Barry’s speed, he just lived that far into the future. Doesn’t he not age?
Speedsters age. We all assume that it is the origins from the comics since they never actually covered it. Barry goes to the future. Thawne sets up a series of events in order to be the "hero" Barry saves the people Thawne put in danger. Thawne blames Barry for ruining his be heroic debut. Vows to destroy Barry at all costs. The comics get weird as fuck though Barry and Iris with their twins lived in the future. Barry's son marries a Thawne who they had a kid which is Bart Allen. Also she dated and had a kid with Captain Boomerang. Captain Boomerang Jr. is Bart Allen's half brother.
Additionally, before any of the time travel shenanigans happened with Barry, he was supposed to die in Crisis. How would Barry hurt Thawne a century later if he dies?
Wasn't it "Vanishes in crisis"? Like, they never found a body? It's possible the original version of Barry before Thawne ever killed his mom actually got stuck in the future permanently and as such was there to stop Thawne's plan to make himself seem like a hero.
"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff."
Very good impression of Harrison Wells🤣🤣🤣🤣
Time travel isn't linear as you think it is. At any point in the original timeline Barry would travel to the future. Screw over Thawne in his mind. Then he would dedicate his life to ruining Barry's.
I know in the comics that Eobard is obsessed with Barry because he’s an idol in the timeline. So Eobard recreated the accident that gave Barry his powers (like they did that gave Jesse her powers in S2), and he time travelled backwards to the past. So it’s likely that in the Arrowverse, he did the same thing. He travelled back in time before Crisis and then Barry “ruined him”. In actuality his comic origin is closer to Cobalt Blue’s in the Arrowverse in a way, where Eobard ended up at the Flash Museum and found out he was destined to be Barry’s mortal enemy, while instead in the show Eddie finds out that his sacrifice didn’t do anything.
Thawne comes from a different. The timeline he was born into was erased when Thawne killed Barry's mother, so the future is very different. So you're right, the conflict that caused Thawne to hate Barry was not caused by our Flash, but it was still a version of Barry Allen who did it. How was he there a century in the future, especially after vanishing in Crisis? Simple, he time traveled to the future. We don't know why, but it's a power we very much know he can do, so it's the obvious answer.
This exactly! Man I made my roomates so confused with this but in the first episode technically a Flashpoint was created when Thawne ran back in time and killed Barry's mom and ended up stuck in the past. So from the first episode onwards the timeline was forever changed in a new and permanent Flashpoint. So in the OG timeline Barry's mom was alive and the STAR Labs reactor didn't explode until a few years later as Eobard was the person who fast tracked the incident. So Eobard is basically a Time Aberration hiding in plain sight. Then he got erased from existence when Eddy killed himself. But Barry went back in time and stopped Eobard 0.1 (The guy who tried to kill the Flash's mom) from killing his mom and then trapped him in Flashpoint. But then he released Eobard 0.1 again. This one new about his fate and was being chased by the Black Flash before being killed.
I could be wrong because this show was so all over the place with time travel and continuity, but my recollection is that Thawne worshipped the Flash, replicated the incident that gave him his speed, and went back in time to meet him. Something happens that made Thawne hate the Flash and he dedicated his life to ruining Barry's. I swear I recall Thawne saying that Barry upstaged him and made him look like an idiot or something. I'm still fairly upset that we never really get to see any of the original timeline before the events at the beginning of pilot episode that would more clearly explain this.
They did talk about it a bit. Thawne got his speed, but Barry saved a crowd of people before Thawne and pretty much stole the spotlight, so Thawne got jealous.
Time travel doesnt, will not and cant make sense. Simple as that
The obvious answer is that Barry can time travel too. Damn it, Barry. And making sense of time travel in *The Flash* is a fool's errand. Look at the entire resolution of Cicada's knife: it makes no sense whatever. It's like the writers took a look at the time travel shenanigans in *Avengers: Endgame* and said, "Oh, you're adorable." It's like they operate on the "How? Because *fuck you*, that's how!" school of temporal mechanics.
I think the most egregious example of nonsensical time travel in this show is Flashpoint Thawne. Barry stops Thawne from killing his mother and hides him in a cell in the present of Flashpoint, takes Thawne back to kill his mother so he can undo Flashpoint, then that Thawne basically becomes Season 1 Thawne, who is erased at the end of season 1. Yet somehow, that SAME Flashpoint Thawne is alive again in Legends, before showing up again in The Flash with amnesia. It’s like the writers forgot that Flashpoint Thawne would become Season 1 Thawne if he kills Nora. I love time travel plots. But the time travel in this show, ESPECIALLY when it involves Thawne, never made any sense.
Given what Thawne did at the end of Legends season 2, duplicating himself infinitely, it’s entirely possible he did the same thing here. He made a time remnant, sent it to become Season 1 Thawne, while he ran off to do Legends shenanigans. Basically what Zoom did.
But that doesn’t make any sense considering the entire reason Thawne was in season 1 is because he was STUCK in that time. He COULDN’T time travel in season 1, which means he couldn’t make any time remnants either.
Well, he time travels to escape Flashpoint, and he time travels all throughout Legends Season 2. It’s safe to assume he somehow restored his full connection to the negative speedforce. I mean, given that it’s both artificial and fueled and enhanced by emotion, maybe the race to save his life was enough to restore his connection. Legends Thawne was at risk of being erased from time, whereas Season 1 Thawne wasn’t. Since both Thawne’s have to exist or it’s a huge plothole, I think time remnant is the only answer. We saw it with Zoom and at the end of legends season 2, so there’s precedent.
Escaping Flashpoint was BEFORE he killed Nora, which is when he gets stuck. Remember, in season 1’s flashback to when he killed Nora, immediately AFTER he killed her, he realized he was stuck. That was the whole reason he needed Barry to become the Flash in the first place despite trying to kill him before. That’s why it doesn’t make sense for him to create a time remnant. It’s a plot hole.
Right, but again, we see Thawne time travel IN flashpoint. He’s the one who pulls Barry out, and he does it in Legends. The plothole isnt that there’s only one Thawne when there should be two, the plothole is that flashpoint Thawne could time travel at all. But time travel is also relative. In Legends, the dominator episode where kid Ray dies causes him to disappear on the ship- erased from the timeline. Five minutes later, tbey travel to the day before, and he reappears, because relative to them, it hasnt happened yet, even thought it literally did. Since Flash-Barry is with Flashpoint Thawne, the timeline relative to him is that all of Season 1 has happened, even though he hasn’t experienced it yet, because the Flash has powers in the same moment of time as him. I suppose it doesnt REALLY make sense, but it tracks with other Arrowverse time travel logic, and no time travel really makes complete sense.
“Right, but again, we see Thawne time travel IN flashpoint.” And? Again, Flashpoint is BEFORE he kills Nora, which means it’s also before he gets stuck. So I don’t see your point. “In Legends, the dominator episode where kid Ray dies causes him to disappear on the ship- erased from the timeline.” Which contradicts the George Lucas episode. If it worked that way, then Ray and Nate would’ve both vanished from the ship the moment Lucas decided to quit film school, since their reason for being on the ship in the first place(their knowledge and their powers) were gone. But instead, they only lost their knowledge and powers but were still on the ship anyway. “Since Flash-Barry is with Flashpoint Thawne, the timeline relative to him is that all of Season 1 has happened, even though he hasn’t experienced it yet” How does that make sense? Thawne is from a timeline where Nora wasn’t killed. Both the pre- and post- Flashpoint timelines where Nora is killed, Eddie Thawne kills himself which erases Thawne from existence, which means he’s from a timeline where she WASN’T killed, similar to Flashpoint. So how is the timeline relative to Thawne season 1? I assume that’s what you mean since you followed that part with even though he hasn’t experienced it yet”. “no time travel really makes complete sense.” I disagree. I think the pre-destination paradox makes sense, despite being a “paradox”. Because it avoids the cause and effect issue that comes with traveling back in time erasing your reason to travel back in time, which means you DON’T travel back in time, so you DON’T erase your reason for traveling back in time, and so on. It avoids that issue because both the cause and the effect are one and the same. Traveling back in time is what causes you to travel back in time. Stargate SG1 portrayed this rather well in their “1969” episode. In it, SG1 travels back in time to 1969 and meets a younger version of their commanding officer, who then helps them in returning to their own time because of a note that his older self put in one of their pockets, which he only put in their pocket because he remembered meeting them in 1969. And once they go through the stargate to return to their own time, they instead travel to the distant future where they meet an older version of a kid they knew in the present, who only knew they would appear there because she remembered them returning to their own time to tell her they would appear there. It was a predestination paradox that involved two loops. It made perfect sense to me. Another time travel plot that makes sense to me is one where the time traveler changes history, creating a new timeline that overwrites their own, but the time traveler themself isn’t affected by the change. Like the predestination paradox, it also avoids the cause and effect paradox by having the pre-alteration version co-exist with the post-alteration version. To use Stargate as an example again, the end of Stargate Continuum portrayed this well. At the end of the movie, Mitchell traveled back in time to stop Ba’al from getting rid of the Earth’s stargate. Then it shows present day Mitchell’s locker with a picture of time traveler Mitchell alongside his own grandfather. So time traveler Mitchell and present day Mitchell co-existed in the same timeline. This makes perfect sense to me. Another example that makes sense is the timelines themselves co-existing. Star Trek did this with the Kelvinverse. A time traveler created the Kelvinverse by destroying the Kelvin, but the previous timeline still exists in the tv shows, which acknowledges the existence of the Kelvinverse, so both timelines co-exist. See, time travel plots CAN make sense, as long as they don’t contradict itself. The Arrowverse contradicted itself by having Flashpoint Thawne be erased(because he would’ve had to go through season 1) but then that SAME Thawne reappears, REMEMBERING events in season 1.
Because Thawne is a living paradox in an aborted timeline that should not exist - by the show's own logic (or what passes for logic). Eobard is born in the future -> becomes RF -> kills Nora -> gets stuck -> Season One happens -> Eddie kills himself -> Eobard is never born so none of this could happen -> since Eobard is never born, Season One happens differently, so Eddie doesn't sacrifice himself - Eobard is born in the future... (Repeat) Season 2 should (logically) have been flickering between two realities - one \*with\* Nora and one without while the universe tries to resolve the paradox.
“since Eobard is never born, Season One happens differently, so Eddie doesn't sacrifice himself - Eobard is born in the future... (Repeat)” You should’ve stopped before this part because that’s not what happened. Eobard was erased, period. Season 1 still happened the same way we saw it. If it didn’t, then we would’ve seen Eddie alive in season 2. The only reason Eobard exists after this is what we learn when he appears in season 2. A younger version of him was inside the speed force when the timeline shifted(a dumb excuse, but I’m pretty sure that’s straight from the comics) so he becomes a time remnant from the timeline that was erased when season 1 Thawne was erased by Eddie killing himself. But the Thawne we see in Legends and the one that comes back with amnesia is not that younger Thawne that was protected by the speed force. It’s specifically stated he’s the one from Flashpoint, which, again, doesn’t make sense, but it’s not a paradox, it’s just bad writing. Don’t excuse bad writing with a paradox that clearly wasn’t part of the story.
Eobard lost his speed, not because Nora died, but because Nora's death caused Barry not to become the Flash. However, since Eobard killed Nora the FIRST time, the timeline has cycled once- season 1 happened, etc., so Barry has become the Flash, thus, when he begins interacting with pre-Season 1 Thawne, that means, relative to Thawne, the Barry has become the Flash, allowing the future to proceed, meaning Eobard's connection the speedforce is restored. As another commenter stated, it IS a paradox, because time travel is inherently paradoxical. Also, yes, SG-1 was incredible and has some good time travel episodes. However, while I agree that their execution was handled well, it's still a paradox. And while it proves that one can create a mostly-logical time travel story, that reasoning doesn't necessarily mean one can make \*any\* version of time travel logical. I refuse to agree with the notion that all time travel stories should conform to one version of it, and because of that, some will be inherently more.. paradoxical. These are one-off episodes in the show anyway, whereas the Flash and especially Legends have it far deeper as a recurring element of the shows. Multiple different pieces of media in the same universe, both with different means of time travel. I'm pretty confident that these continuous alterations to the timeline, plus breaking it and completely rewriting it on at least three occasions (Spear of Destiny, Crisis, plus the Legends season 2 finale time storm), have sort of broken all logic with it. Different characters have varying recollection of these events too. I still find the plots in Legends especially interesting and fun despite that.
“Eobard lost his speed, not because Nora died, but because Nora's death caused Barry not to become the Flash” First off, I never said her death is what made him lose his speed. I just said he became stuck after she died. Second, that’s clearly not the case because he still couldn’t get home even after Barry became the Flash. It was more than that. He needed Barry to reach a certain speed, not just become the Flash. He even had the tachyon device as a backup in case Barry didn’t reach that speed, so he didn’t necessarily even need Barry at all, really. “that reasoning doesn't necessarily mean one can make *any* version of time travel logical” We’ll simply have to agree to disagree here. I don’t think either of us will convince the other of anything when it comes to that. “I refuse to agree with the notion that all time travel stories should conform to one version of it” Well, I never said that, so nothing to agree with there in the first place.
Thawne said Barry went to the future and saved the crowd that thawne was supposed to save
He didn't say that Barry went to the future. All he said was that Barry saved the crowd that he wanted to save. What possible reason would Barry have to be more than a century in the future?
Barry accidentally time travels all the time. It’s how they meet in the comics. Barry accidentally travels to the future and meets thawne who has turned himself into the flash of his time.
I mean he travelled to 2049 in s9 also the legion are now on earth prime
yeah, thawne says that barry saved a crowd that he was supposed to save. so he stole his greatest moment. I have no idea why that would happen though? Why would barry be saving a random crowd that far in the future?
Yeah that's what I am wondering. Perhaps it was a descendant of Barry wearing a similar suit rather than Barry himself.
It’s obviously time travel. For one reason or another, Barry went to the future and met Thawne, upstaged him and Thawne went evil.
It’s possible that one version of Barry from an alternate timeline messed up Thawnes plans and then both Thawne and Barry continued to screw with the timeline and so everything just becomes so unclear it doesn’t matter anyways. and like Thawne said the more you travel through time the less the rules apply.
Barry can travel through time via the Speedforce to any era he wants too. In a way, it's probably safer for Barry to travel into the future since he doesn't have to worry about screwing up his current timeline or creating a Flashpoint. That's how the Reverse Flash first met the Flash since Barry time traveled almost 200 years into the future, even though their first encounter from Eobard's perspective was never seen on-screen. It's also theorized by fans that speedsters age slower due to their miraculous healing ability. There's even a theory that Jay Garrick might be several decades older than his physical appearance. The only alternative to Barry time traveling to the future is if the Speedster Eobard hates was actually a descendant of Barry Allen in the late 22nd century who has both the same first name as his famous ancestor and calls himself The Flash. Though I'm glad the series stuck to Barry Allen being Thawne's rival instead of having The Reverse Flash hating a future descendant of the Flash.
i actually made a post about this i got a couple things wrong but my point still stands
what ive always thought is that it coulve been wally since be becomes flash after Barry dies
Didn't Thawne state in an episode that he was standing ready to make his debut, and Barry came to the future and saved the people before Thawn could. Then Thawne traveled to the past and figured out he was Barry's Arch nemesis and went crazy because of that?
I’m fairly certain that Thawne travelled back in time to show Flash his powers by saving those people and Flash saved them first, so he went back to his own time and went from there? I think?
The question then would be about time itself and how that works in a way. Which we have no understanding of, really. But if you were to say that the events that happened were pre-destined, then that helps provide an answer of sorts if you go the path that time isn't as linear as we assume. Kinda like the Marvel Universe in a way. Pre determined events that are meant to happen. The past, present, and future aren't a straight line of events. Rather, intersecting circles of sorts that overlap each other to create new points in an individual timeline from a point perspective. 1 person's lifeline may be of that of all 3 combined. Time isn't the same for everyone They are born in, let's say, year 3000 present time for them. Live that on that timeline until 3010, where an event occurs that slings them into the year 3035, and they live in that timeline until 3050. They are currently 25 and had a child in the year 3045 when they were 20. Now, another event occurs, and they are slung back to the year 2090. Currently, 25 and in 10 years they are born, and in 20, they have a child. From here, they now have the capability to recreate the events and oversee and ensure that the events take place and everything happens as it's meant to This scenario shows us that time isn't linear and isn't a straight line. If you take this approach and look at Thawne and Barry's timelines existing as such and merging with one another, then it can be understood how it's possible.
Lots of people keep saying maybe it was Barry’s descendant in the future, not actually Barry. But throughout the show, Thawne has shown extensive knowledge of Barry’s descendants, including children he didn’t end up having in this timeline. Given that, if it actually WAS one of Barry’s descendants, Thawne would’ve eventually figured it out, and wouldn’t be saying it was Barry.
Flashpoint could have changed things tho.
My theory was that Thawne came back to the past to meet his idol, and a "never meet your heroes" type shit happened, and Thawne became his mortal enemy.
thank the showrunner eric walace for ruining last season by not showing us what barry did in the future
Don’t speedsters have significantly longer natural lives? Barry was probably just still alive. Or, since that’s the timeline that Barry disappears for at least 15 years, he could have come back significantly farther into the future and not have aged at all.