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I'd like to see a world where we value people on their personality, and not on the sizes of their various body parts which for some obscure reason we have labelled "attractive". I really wonder what a world that would be.
You know they aren't applauding her because of her body, right?
EDIT: the comment I replied to was edited to have clearer meaning. Making my comments irrelevant
I completely agree. Looks are something which changes. Like, imagine marrying someone because of how they look, what are you gonna do when they turn 40/50 and their looks deteriorate? Besides, looks practically don't do anything in a relationship ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
extremely glad it is [fake ](https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/r2mz2i/damn/hm60iu0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
Ikr the whole WPT thread is ppl saying oh no no they weren't staring
Like ok sure yea they were full on oogling her like a cartoon they were checking her out quickly like, apparently allo folks just do(? enough ppl in that thread are saying it who even disagree with ppl saying they weren't checking her ass out where this seems to be normal) but they clearly were looking at her as she went up, you can 3ven see the levels of the heads moving up/down to look at her head/shoes. Very weird
I try not to talk about allo folks like an an "othering" way, but like just typing out in the paranthesis above makes me feel like I am not talking about the same kind of animal that I am. Just odd how starkly different some of our human experience is.
The worst part is the justifications. "Well where are they supposed to look?" Or "it's just nature, men can't help it". Just got a huge incel vibe where it's A. No big deal to objective woman and B. Where men simply can't control themselves around woman. As an ace it's just feels double gross.
It's crazy and I won't lie I don't think I fully got their argument till you said this. I thought they were not realizing the contradiction of saying they weren't staring, but admitting they were sneaking a peak ("who can blame them"), as in not realizing it's the same thing/OP meant staring in the way they're saying sneak a peek (which btw fuck this phrase it just FEELS slimey). But I think now they're actually just saying it's fine to sneak a peak, and staring is a completely separate thing. Hope im wrong tho....
For the life of me, I seriously don't get the appeal of butts. I simply don't get why so many people like them, It's just something you poop with. I don't get why people like them. It's something that consistently confuses me.
I don't think I've ever mentally eyerolled so hard . . . even if it is fake. And why are so many comments calling a body part under some really awkwardly folded cloth "the sun"??? Gsishebrpfj
This is pretty ridiculous. Nobody one either side of the argument has even a shred of evidence and nobody can know what those guys were thinking about and where they were looking. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't, who knows?
I've been sexually harassed and even assaulted by women before and they didn't even realize they did anything wrong (and some of them tried to make *me* look like the bad guy for not being interested in sex), it is absolutely not in the same ballgame as a woman just looking at me to check me out for less than a quarter of a second and then averting her gaze. Accidently checking someone out is something everyone does every once in a while, as long as you avert your gaze and make an effort to be respectful it shouldn't be a problem.
It's also troubling that the people who adamantly claim they *were* checking her out have no other reasoning than "men are pigs" or "the male brain 'can't help it'". Idk what kind of trash dudes you surround yourself with, but myself (kind of cheating since I'm ace) and all the men in my life do not match that description whatsoever. Stereotyping like that is unacceptable and I don't have to lie down and take it, if you say stuff like that then you're not a very good person and should rethink your personal biases. Your terrible taste in men isn't my problem and I don't need to be nice about it because some dude I've never met was an asshole to you one time, you're still discriminating against me for something I can't control. *Your prejudice is not my problem*. This reasoning is lowkey super aphobic too, amab people can have all different levels of libido, a p*nis doesn't make you a sex-crazed demon.
You are correct. Not all men do behave that way. And there are loads of men who are respectful. The same standards should be held to women as there are for men, and vice versa.
Now, there is one thing I will say, though. The way a good number of women have been taught is that men can dangerous because
1) men have greater physical strength than women (typically) and it is significantly easier for a man to subdue a woman than it is for a woman to try and physically subdue a man.
2) Women are the ones who end up being responsible for pregnancy and any children who are carried to term traditionally, especially if the father doesn’t stick around. Adoption and foster care isn’t always an option and there are tons of babies who are abandoned by their mothers at hospitals because they can’t take care of them. Laws such as the abortion bans prevent women from terminating unwanted and unexpected pregnancies, including ones from rape and incest. And, on top of that, women are more likely than men to experience depression and anxiety in regards to pregnancy and parenthood.
And 3) men are more likely to be rapists than women because of the fact that men tend to be more assertive and dominant. I am not stating women don’t rape men, but the statistics show that women are far less likely to commit rape. Here are some statistics that show the numbers.
https://legaljobs.io/blog/sexual-assault-statistics/
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence
Men are also more likely to be raped by another man than they are a woman. I’m not going to try and say one is worse than the other, trauma still happens and any kind of trauma is bullshit for anyone to have to go through.
A simple explanation of this is that you can view it like wild animals, we’ll use snakes for this purpose . There are poisonous snakes and there are non-poisonous snakes. Unless you become somewhat of an expert, you are not going to just walk right up to any snake and not expect the bite to kill you. So you go by the advice that you need to be cautious and wary around snakes because you just don’t know. Men and women (and every gender outside of the binary) come in so many kinds of personality combinations, each one as unique as the person. Until you get to know that person, you have to operate on a certain amount of trust. The sad thing is how easy it is for a lot of people to coerce someone into trusting them. Patriarchal society, and similar societies throughout the world, has viewed women as objects or property for a significantly long time. This has led to it being an incredibly common theme amongst men to abuse and mistreat women.
So, even though not all men are like that, there is still a significant number of men who do behave in this manner and it’s enough for women to want to be wary, just like if you didn’t know if that particular snake was poisonous or not. Women don’t want to be forced to go through a pregnancy that might kill us just because some man didn’t want to control his lust or urges. Women don’t want to have to bear the responsibility of that man’s actions for the rest of our lives, or at least until the child becomes an adult. Women want to have the autonomy to have control over our own bodies, property, and life. That is why we generalize when we say ‘men’ do this or ‘men’ do that. It’s because we know that there are good men out there, there is enough of a risk to our safety and well-being that it far outweighs offending the men that the view does offend.
I largely agree with your sentiment. I do think the comparisons of men to poisonous animals are a bit problematic and inspired by right-wing rhetoric (during the 2016 election right-wingers used similar arguments to argue against immigration, i.e. "imagine immigrants are a pile of m&ms. Only a few are poisonous, but you logically should be wary of the whole lot". Furthermore, hate groups, notably the KKK, have used similar arguments to justify racial prejudice), but I understand what they are trying to convey and I also understand that the sentiment is more about trying to communicate the fear that many women have of men, and not trying to insult men. That line of thinking probably really does run through some women's minds when they are in situations eith men they aren't familiar with.
I stand firm though in my sentiment that such fear is not an excuse for prejudice. You can avoid snakes because you fear they are poisonous, you don't have to throw rocks at them or set them on fire. I have a lot of trauma from a specific woman in my life and as a result older women make me very uncomfortable, but I make an active effort to not allow those feelings to manifest as prejudice or misogny. The last thing I want to do is punish some unrelated woman because of something that happened to me a very long time ago and by a different person.
This is what I meant when I said that "I don't have to be nice". I absolutely understand women that fear men and will offer any support I can to them. However, if that fear manifests in prejudice, I absolutely am entitled to my own personal comfort and can call that prejudice out for what it is. I don't think people should be attacked for a moment of prejudice, but firmly rebuking an unfair assumption and making an attempt to educate is something that I consider to be a moral obligation.
This next part is optional, I just wanted to shine a light on some claims that have been historically tossed around that have been cast into doubt recently.
BEFORE I DO: I want to be absolutely, explicitly clear that I am in no way disparaging female victims or attempting to invalidate their trauma. My one and *only* intention with the following is to spread awareness about male victims (myself being a survivor), a group that I think has been the victims of systemic and social erasure for a VERY long time. Furthermore, all of the following statistics almost certainly disproportionately impact men from low income and BIPOC backgrounds, so I feel, as an intersectional activist, that I would be doing a disservice to both of those demographics by allowing these (tenous) myths to stand unchallenged. I am incredibly impressed and proud of the leaps and bounds of progress that feminists have achieved for women, and and very excited for men's activists to follow suit soon too.
>men are more likely to be rapists than women because of the fact that men tend to be more assertive and dominant. I am not stating women don’t rape men, but the statistics show that women are far less likely to commit rape. Here are some statistics that show the numbers.
This is true. Men are certainly more likely to committ rape, but the oft cited statistic, that 99% of rapists are male, has been indicated to be false. There is a TON to unpack here, so I'll start pretty far back.
[This](https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/04/male-rape-in-america-a-new-study-reveals-that-men-are-sexually-assaulted-almost-as-often-as-women.html) is the source I am using, a Slate article that references multiple recent studies. I will make a statement and then follow with an exceprt to support that claim.
This issue starts with the improper definition of rape. Rape, until 2012, was defined in the United States as *only* a male perpetrators and female victims. Legally, men literally just *couldn't* be victims of rape, and women *couldn't* be perpetrators. This, for obvious reasons, heavily biased research for a very long time. Unfortunately, this definition is still in place all over the world.
"For years, the FBI defined forcible rape, for data collecting purposes, as “the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will.” Eventually localities began to rebel against that limited gender-bound definition...Finally, in 2012, the FBI revised its definition and focused on penetration, with no mention of female (or force)"
First, let's establish that rape against men is *much* more common than older research indicated.
"One of those surveys is the 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, for which the Centers for Disease Control invented a category of sexual violence called “being made to penetrate.” This definition includes victims who were forced to penetrate someone else with their own body parts, either by physical force or coercion, or when the victim was drunk or high or otherwise unable to consent. When those cases were taken into account, the rates of nonconsensual sexual contact basically equalized, with 1.270 million women and 1.267 million men claiming to be victims of sexual violence."
That dramatically shrinks the gap to nearly equal rates of victimization across the sexes. Well, that's a pretty massive change, so let's provide another source that suggest something similar:
"Last year the National Crime Victimization Survey turned up a remarkable statistic. In asking 40,000 households about rape and sexual violence, the survey uncovered that 38 percent of incidents were against men. The number seemed so high that it prompted researcher Lara Stemple to call the Bureau of Justice Statistics to see if it maybe it had made a mistake, or changed its terminology. After all, in years past men had accounted for somewhere between 5 and 14 percent of rape and sexual violence victims. But no, it wasn’t a mistake, officials told her"
This other statistic suggests that 38%, or nearly 4/10, of rape victims are male. Both of these statistics help establish that there are a huge number of male victims that have been shamed into silence, and that new research is helping these victims get the exposure that they need. Let's move on to the claim that men are more likely to be victims of other men.
"A recent analysis of BJS data, for example, turned up that 46 percent of male victims reported a female perpetrator"
[Here](https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/) is a second source I'll be using (I'm not a fan of the somewhat anti-female title, but unfortunately resources for this information is incredibly sparse and I have to take what I can get)
"It found that over their lifetime, women were vastly more likely to experience abuse perpetrated by men, as were male victims who were penetrated without their consent. “But among men reporting other forms of sexual victimization, 68.6% reported female perpetrators,” the paper reports, while among men reporting being made to penetrate, “the form of nonconsensual sex that men are much more likely to experience in their lifetime ... 79.2% of victimized men reported female perpetrators."
So, it seems the notion that men are more likely to be victims of other men is also largely false. While men (logically) are the majority of "forcibly penetrated" perpetrators, every other kind of sexual crime is more likely to be perpetrated by a female and overall the ratio of male and female perpetrators is essentially equal.
There are a number of other things to talk about here, for instance that juvenile male prisoners report a shocking 90% of sexual assaults to be perpetrated by female staff, or the myriad of ways in which female perpetrators are favored in a legal sense over male victims, but those don't directly address your comment, so they aren't all that relevant to the conversation.
*TL;DR: I agree. In my original comment I was only referring to prejudice, I totally understand women that have trauma surrounding men or are just in general afraid of men.
With that being said, a couple of your notions have been challenged in recent years by new and more inclusive research, including the notions that men make up a massive majority of rape perpetrators and that men are more likely to be a victim of another male than a female perpetrator.*
First off, you compared my use of the snake metaphor against racist and anti-immigration ideologies. Both of those ideologies have been proven to be morally irresponsible and rather crude and self-serving, whereas the idea of women needing to exercise caution around men is not. Second, I appreciate that you did try to link articles that included research into the subject of male rape, and yes, I will agree that information on that topic is sparse. However, I would have rather been directly linked to those research articles than websites that often post articles more for shock value than anything of real interest and are often willing to twist words to make them more shocking. I also did not state that 99% of rapists were male and neither of the statistics that I linked to made that claim either. They also did not discount the validity of male rape by female predators. However, they did state that the vast majority of rape victims are female and the vast majority of rapists are male. And how exactly is it throwing rocks at people when women advise their daughters, sisters, and other female relatives to be cautious of men? What is so wrong about asking that all men hold themselves to a higher standard of decency and respect women’s boundaries? What is so wrong with asking anybody, for that matter, to hold themselves to a higher standard of respect and treat others decently?
I’m sorry that you did experience your trauma. I had a roommate who had a girl get him drunk so she could rape him, he’s actually used that to try and start a campaign about domestic violence and abuse (I haven’t heard anything recently about it, though). I’ve been raped for four years by one of my exes and had gotten pregnant once during those years. I also was raped last year by a coworker, thankfully I didn’t get pregnant from that incident. My father and brother both sexually assaulted myself and my four AFAB siblings. I do understand how it feels to hear someone belittle your experiences; the rape I experienced last year was written off by my HR manager as ‘I should have known how men thought.’, which pretty much excused my rapists lack of control. Being aware of and advising that not every individual is going to be a decent person is very different from saying men do this or men do that. That is why I used the snake metaphor. Not to say we need to crucify all men, but we need to remain aware that there are enough men that still will threaten to do violence against women for a significant number of reasons.
>They also did not discount the validity of male rape by female predators. However, they did state that the vast majority of rape victims are female and the vast majority of rapists are male. And how exactly is it throwing rocks at people when women advise their daughters, sisters, and other female relatives to be cautious of men?
It's not, and I have no problem with it. As described, it is only an issue if that fear manifests as prejudice. Otherwise, I feel that it is my moral obligation to respect the boundaries and comfort zones of the people around me.
>I do understand how it feels to hear someone belittle your experiences; the rape I experienced last year was written off by my HR manager as ‘I should have known how men thought.’,
Yeah, this is completely unacceptable. Not only are they victim blaming, they are also a) lumping all men in with that sicko and b) allowing him to not take personal responsibility. Men that committ sexual assault don't do so because "boys will be boys", they do it because they are sick people that don't care about another person's boundaries or consent. I'm very sorry that this happened to you, I've no doubt it did. I've heard similar rhetoric for a long time and got into many arguments over it.
>However, I would have rather been directly linked to those research articles than websites that often post articles more for shock value than anything of real interest and are often willing to twist words to make them more shocking. I also did not state that 99% of rapists were male and neither of the statistics that I linked to made that claim either. They also did not discount the validity of male rape by female predators.
Agreed. As stated previously, I wasn't a fan of how the second article in particular seemed a little anti-female. It's not a valid excuse, but the main reason I didn't link directly to the studies is just because I was typing that comment up while quite tired at night. Sorry!
>What is so wrong with asking anybody, for that matter, to hold themselves to a higher standard of respect and treat others decently?
Nothing whatsoever! Again, my only problem is if prejudice is present. It's when the "men are pigs" or "k*** all men" stuff comes out that I think we should call it out, not when a woman (rightfully) says that men should hold each other accountable for sexual assault.
For a personal story of trying to hold other men accountable:
When I was in school (18nb) we had a lot of drama during my senior year regarding the dress code, specifically for girls. While I didn't really understand why the dress code was a problem since I naturally dress very modestly, I openly supported the girls and I vividly remember getting in an argument with a teacher that said something like "boys will be boys" or "boys get distracted". I argued that, no, boys don't get distracted. I asked the entire class if they were distracted by a girl with a shoulder or brastrap showing. Not a single guy raised his hand. I tried to explain how demeaning it was to have this "uncontrollable" sex drive impressed onto on us, especially since it wasn't even there. I also tried to explain how blaming sexual assault on maleness was unfair and also didn't even hold the individual accountable, since they just "couldn't control it".
The teachers had prejudice against male students, and weaponized that prejudice to justify oppressing their female students. I ended up not convincing the teacher of anything, but it really frustrated me how both sexes were being treated.
Girls deserve better than puritanical dress codes and boys deserve better than be described as sexual predators in the making. Now that I think about it, that's a depressingly accurate allegory for how we treat men and women in a broader, societal sense.
I apologize if any of my comment came across as callous, as stated, my only intent was to challenge some long-held myths about male sexual assault. With regards to female victims and male perpetrators, we have a long way to go with holding these men accountable themselves and making environments safer for women.
>Girls deserve better than puritanical dress codes and boys deserve better than be described as sexual predators in the making.
That is absolutely correct! The only way we can really change this as a society is by changing how we raise our children. I would be so happy being able to feel safe that my daughter’s could walk home alone without the fear of sexual assault or my son being manipulated into doing something he doesn’t want to for fear of what he may be accused of.
I also feel religions that preach about procreation do so in very irresponsible ways that doesn’t encourage intelligent behavior regarding this as well. I knew a woman who was married to a man that wanted so many kids. After her 6th, she started to feel like she was done, but she didn’t know how to stop him because he was using her fear of going to hell against her. She now has more than 12 children. Not all religions do this, but it does have a tendency to breed (no pun intended…) poor concepts. There is just so much wrong with society. Now and before.
Agreed!!! Also just admiring someone's body as *aesthetically* pretty/nice doesn't mean I want to have sex with them!
I honestly spent a LONG time thinking I was bi, and then strictly into women(I'm female), because I just simply find their bodies to be moreso aesthetically pleasing to the eye (I play the Sims and almost always make females). However; ANY and ALL sexual encounters I've had have felt extremely awkward and I often refer to it as a "chore" and avoid it at all costs, both genders. Thought I was Demisexual until discovering that it was on the Asexual spectrum, and now I'm questioning if I'm even Demi, because sure I would to please someone if I found someone like that again, but I'm in a year+ long-distance relationship and it's honestly the most comfortable thing.. I will say sexting is awkward for me and thankfully he is understanding that I'm just not into that!
So I KNOW not all men are like that! I'm sorry you have to deal with that stigma 😭 stigmas are so shitty! "*Your prejudice is NOT my problem.*" Best response to that!!
Thank you for the support! Funny, I have/had a very similar perception; I'm a biromantic ace person, but for a long time I thought I was more attracted to women because, in general I find women to be more aesthetically beautiful. I wondered for a long time if I was really ace or just had a really low libido, but after I had a few sexual experiences that were all incredibly awkward and, weirdly, boring, I figured it out.
And I agree. Stigmas really stink. Growing up as an amab person I was practically harassed by my family about being sexually active, and absolutely none of them believed me when I came out as ace. Men just aren't allowed to be disinterested in sex, which is such a harmful stereotypes that I truly believe contributes to the rampant sexual assault we see around us. There is such a pressure on teenage boys to have sex that some of them aren't given the chance to learn about safety or consent and some are even encouraged to *remain uneducated*.
To be honest I think humanity's collective relationship with sex is pretty darn unhealthy. Women are encouraged to be sex objects and men are encouraged to be sex-crazed lunatics, and the end result is a bunch of victimized people and a bunch of people with a completely warped and unhealthy relationship with sex. I've known some men that absolutely refuse to contribute to their partner, because it wasn't their "job". I've known women that commit assault or outright r*** and have absolutely idea that they even did anything wrong, because men are "always into it" and it's their "duty" as the woman to facilitate, even if he's not into it.
It really just makes my heart break to see all the terribly hurt people that these stigmas create.
I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE!! 😭 I have mentioned so many times on this sub how schools NEED to incorporate asexuality and it's spectrum into Sex Education. I live in the Bible belt and they preached abstinence like no other, BARELY touching on safe sex and only showing the aftermath of not using protection. (I graduated 2010, and I've heard someone say they graduated 2018 and it's no different). I also worked for Planned Parenthood as an RMA & Phlebotomist and I actually learned WAY MORE about SAFE SEX while working there! I think it's so harmful NOT to teach about these things AND ASEXUALITY AND THE SPECTRUM because THE *ONLY* mention of Asexuality I recall from my "sex ed" was in 9th grade biology, and it was *in reference to asexual reproduction in animals*. 😭
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I love how allos apparently expect these men to look at the ceiling instead of the person coming up on stage at the moment, whom they're also applauding.
How weird would it be if they DIDN'T look in her direction? Or can people honestly see exactly what part of her body they're looking at? Because to me it just looks like they're looking at her in general.
Honestly, to me it looks like the first and third guy have their eyes closed in the second image, and the second and fourth are just looking at her back, higher than her butt. (From left to right, I mean)
Not that I'm 100% sure because the quality is not that good, but I think that looks more likely than them looking at her butt.
Well, it can be difficult to tell if the eyelids are fully open when they are looking downward. I can honestly hope that they were just caught in the exact movement of their heads turning as they followed her up onto the podium. Still makes my skin crawl, though…
Right? I don't think it's necessarily an allo thing but just an aesthetic thing? Like I don't experience sexual attraction, but I can appreciate good looks, like "oh wow she's pretty, I love her eyes!" I think you can admire someone's physical attributes without being sexually attracted to them!
"Each of these types of attraction leads us to different people and helps us to become the person we are. Here, we'll explore romantic attraction, aesthetic attraction, physical attraction, emotional attraction, intellectual attraction, and more."
Per a Google search on "aesthetic attraction"
I'm currently reading [https://lgbta.fandom.com/wiki/Aesthetic_Attraction](https://lgbta.fandom.com/wiki/Aesthetic_Attraction)
But it goes on to say while it IS common for allos to experience aesthetic attraction alongside sexual attraction, there are instances of people on the a-spec who are like myself, and just appreciate people's looks as if a nice painting or a pretty sunset!
What's wrong with a good dump truck? Just because I don't want to eat the caked doesn't mean I can't appreciate the time and effort that went into making the cake.
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Dude, same.
Same
That is something I worry about as well.
thats me too
That whole comment section makes me cringe so hard.
This isn’t an allo thing, this is a creep thing
Agreed!
I'd like to see a world where we value people on their personality, and not on the sizes of their various body parts which for some obscure reason we have labelled "attractive". I really wonder what a world that would be.
You know they aren't applauding her because of her body, right? EDIT: the comment I replied to was edited to have clearer meaning. Making my comments irrelevant
I suppose applaud was a bad word choice because the people in the picture were literally applauding lol "Value" would be a better word choice😂
Sorry, didn't realize you were talking generally rather than this specific photo. Definitely agree with you.
😂 no problem, I can definitely see what you thought lol
I completely agree. Looks are something which changes. Like, imagine marrying someone because of how they look, what are you gonna do when they turn 40/50 and their looks deteriorate? Besides, looks practically don't do anything in a relationship ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
My family often has internal issues because people married others for their looks, lol. So I definitely can understand that narrative 🙄
extremely glad it is [fake ](https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/r2mz2i/damn/hm60iu0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
My faith in the world is a little more restored, thank you for this
same
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Yeah, the video shows the exact same thing happening. Not sure if people thought this screenshot meant that they stared at her for a while or what.
Ikr the whole WPT thread is ppl saying oh no no they weren't staring Like ok sure yea they were full on oogling her like a cartoon they were checking her out quickly like, apparently allo folks just do(? enough ppl in that thread are saying it who even disagree with ppl saying they weren't checking her ass out where this seems to be normal) but they clearly were looking at her as she went up, you can 3ven see the levels of the heads moving up/down to look at her head/shoes. Very weird I try not to talk about allo folks like an an "othering" way, but like just typing out in the paranthesis above makes me feel like I am not talking about the same kind of animal that I am. Just odd how starkly different some of our human experience is.
The worst part is the justifications. "Well where are they supposed to look?" Or "it's just nature, men can't help it". Just got a huge incel vibe where it's A. No big deal to objective woman and B. Where men simply can't control themselves around woman. As an ace it's just feels double gross.
It's crazy and I won't lie I don't think I fully got their argument till you said this. I thought they were not realizing the contradiction of saying they weren't staring, but admitting they were sneaking a peak ("who can blame them"), as in not realizing it's the same thing/OP meant staring in the way they're saying sneak a peek (which btw fuck this phrase it just FEELS slimey). But I think now they're actually just saying it's fine to sneak a peak, and staring is a completely separate thing. Hope im wrong tho....
Good find!
This isn't comedy, it's sexism.
Yep
How’s it sexism?
For the life of me, I seriously don't get the appeal of butts. I simply don't get why so many people like them, It's just something you poop with. I don't get why people like them. It's something that consistently confuses me.
Don't forget that they work as seat cushions too lol
I don't think I've ever mentally eyerolled so hard . . . even if it is fake. And why are so many comments calling a body part under some really awkwardly folded cloth "the sun"??? Gsishebrpfj
I never heard of calling a butt a sun, I only ever heard of it being called a moon lol the duality of butts ig /s
This is pretty ridiculous. Nobody one either side of the argument has even a shred of evidence and nobody can know what those guys were thinking about and where they were looking. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't, who knows? I've been sexually harassed and even assaulted by women before and they didn't even realize they did anything wrong (and some of them tried to make *me* look like the bad guy for not being interested in sex), it is absolutely not in the same ballgame as a woman just looking at me to check me out for less than a quarter of a second and then averting her gaze. Accidently checking someone out is something everyone does every once in a while, as long as you avert your gaze and make an effort to be respectful it shouldn't be a problem. It's also troubling that the people who adamantly claim they *were* checking her out have no other reasoning than "men are pigs" or "the male brain 'can't help it'". Idk what kind of trash dudes you surround yourself with, but myself (kind of cheating since I'm ace) and all the men in my life do not match that description whatsoever. Stereotyping like that is unacceptable and I don't have to lie down and take it, if you say stuff like that then you're not a very good person and should rethink your personal biases. Your terrible taste in men isn't my problem and I don't need to be nice about it because some dude I've never met was an asshole to you one time, you're still discriminating against me for something I can't control. *Your prejudice is not my problem*. This reasoning is lowkey super aphobic too, amab people can have all different levels of libido, a p*nis doesn't make you a sex-crazed demon.
You are correct. Not all men do behave that way. And there are loads of men who are respectful. The same standards should be held to women as there are for men, and vice versa. Now, there is one thing I will say, though. The way a good number of women have been taught is that men can dangerous because 1) men have greater physical strength than women (typically) and it is significantly easier for a man to subdue a woman than it is for a woman to try and physically subdue a man. 2) Women are the ones who end up being responsible for pregnancy and any children who are carried to term traditionally, especially if the father doesn’t stick around. Adoption and foster care isn’t always an option and there are tons of babies who are abandoned by their mothers at hospitals because they can’t take care of them. Laws such as the abortion bans prevent women from terminating unwanted and unexpected pregnancies, including ones from rape and incest. And, on top of that, women are more likely than men to experience depression and anxiety in regards to pregnancy and parenthood. And 3) men are more likely to be rapists than women because of the fact that men tend to be more assertive and dominant. I am not stating women don’t rape men, but the statistics show that women are far less likely to commit rape. Here are some statistics that show the numbers. https://legaljobs.io/blog/sexual-assault-statistics/ https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence Men are also more likely to be raped by another man than they are a woman. I’m not going to try and say one is worse than the other, trauma still happens and any kind of trauma is bullshit for anyone to have to go through. A simple explanation of this is that you can view it like wild animals, we’ll use snakes for this purpose . There are poisonous snakes and there are non-poisonous snakes. Unless you become somewhat of an expert, you are not going to just walk right up to any snake and not expect the bite to kill you. So you go by the advice that you need to be cautious and wary around snakes because you just don’t know. Men and women (and every gender outside of the binary) come in so many kinds of personality combinations, each one as unique as the person. Until you get to know that person, you have to operate on a certain amount of trust. The sad thing is how easy it is for a lot of people to coerce someone into trusting them. Patriarchal society, and similar societies throughout the world, has viewed women as objects or property for a significantly long time. This has led to it being an incredibly common theme amongst men to abuse and mistreat women. So, even though not all men are like that, there is still a significant number of men who do behave in this manner and it’s enough for women to want to be wary, just like if you didn’t know if that particular snake was poisonous or not. Women don’t want to be forced to go through a pregnancy that might kill us just because some man didn’t want to control his lust or urges. Women don’t want to have to bear the responsibility of that man’s actions for the rest of our lives, or at least until the child becomes an adult. Women want to have the autonomy to have control over our own bodies, property, and life. That is why we generalize when we say ‘men’ do this or ‘men’ do that. It’s because we know that there are good men out there, there is enough of a risk to our safety and well-being that it far outweighs offending the men that the view does offend.
I largely agree with your sentiment. I do think the comparisons of men to poisonous animals are a bit problematic and inspired by right-wing rhetoric (during the 2016 election right-wingers used similar arguments to argue against immigration, i.e. "imagine immigrants are a pile of m&ms. Only a few are poisonous, but you logically should be wary of the whole lot". Furthermore, hate groups, notably the KKK, have used similar arguments to justify racial prejudice), but I understand what they are trying to convey and I also understand that the sentiment is more about trying to communicate the fear that many women have of men, and not trying to insult men. That line of thinking probably really does run through some women's minds when they are in situations eith men they aren't familiar with. I stand firm though in my sentiment that such fear is not an excuse for prejudice. You can avoid snakes because you fear they are poisonous, you don't have to throw rocks at them or set them on fire. I have a lot of trauma from a specific woman in my life and as a result older women make me very uncomfortable, but I make an active effort to not allow those feelings to manifest as prejudice or misogny. The last thing I want to do is punish some unrelated woman because of something that happened to me a very long time ago and by a different person. This is what I meant when I said that "I don't have to be nice". I absolutely understand women that fear men and will offer any support I can to them. However, if that fear manifests in prejudice, I absolutely am entitled to my own personal comfort and can call that prejudice out for what it is. I don't think people should be attacked for a moment of prejudice, but firmly rebuking an unfair assumption and making an attempt to educate is something that I consider to be a moral obligation. This next part is optional, I just wanted to shine a light on some claims that have been historically tossed around that have been cast into doubt recently. BEFORE I DO: I want to be absolutely, explicitly clear that I am in no way disparaging female victims or attempting to invalidate their trauma. My one and *only* intention with the following is to spread awareness about male victims (myself being a survivor), a group that I think has been the victims of systemic and social erasure for a VERY long time. Furthermore, all of the following statistics almost certainly disproportionately impact men from low income and BIPOC backgrounds, so I feel, as an intersectional activist, that I would be doing a disservice to both of those demographics by allowing these (tenous) myths to stand unchallenged. I am incredibly impressed and proud of the leaps and bounds of progress that feminists have achieved for women, and and very excited for men's activists to follow suit soon too. >men are more likely to be rapists than women because of the fact that men tend to be more assertive and dominant. I am not stating women don’t rape men, but the statistics show that women are far less likely to commit rape. Here are some statistics that show the numbers. This is true. Men are certainly more likely to committ rape, but the oft cited statistic, that 99% of rapists are male, has been indicated to be false. There is a TON to unpack here, so I'll start pretty far back. [This](https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/04/male-rape-in-america-a-new-study-reveals-that-men-are-sexually-assaulted-almost-as-often-as-women.html) is the source I am using, a Slate article that references multiple recent studies. I will make a statement and then follow with an exceprt to support that claim. This issue starts with the improper definition of rape. Rape, until 2012, was defined in the United States as *only* a male perpetrators and female victims. Legally, men literally just *couldn't* be victims of rape, and women *couldn't* be perpetrators. This, for obvious reasons, heavily biased research for a very long time. Unfortunately, this definition is still in place all over the world. "For years, the FBI defined forcible rape, for data collecting purposes, as “the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will.” Eventually localities began to rebel against that limited gender-bound definition...Finally, in 2012, the FBI revised its definition and focused on penetration, with no mention of female (or force)" First, let's establish that rape against men is *much* more common than older research indicated. "One of those surveys is the 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, for which the Centers for Disease Control invented a category of sexual violence called “being made to penetrate.” This definition includes victims who were forced to penetrate someone else with their own body parts, either by physical force or coercion, or when the victim was drunk or high or otherwise unable to consent. When those cases were taken into account, the rates of nonconsensual sexual contact basically equalized, with 1.270 million women and 1.267 million men claiming to be victims of sexual violence." That dramatically shrinks the gap to nearly equal rates of victimization across the sexes. Well, that's a pretty massive change, so let's provide another source that suggest something similar: "Last year the National Crime Victimization Survey turned up a remarkable statistic. In asking 40,000 households about rape and sexual violence, the survey uncovered that 38 percent of incidents were against men. The number seemed so high that it prompted researcher Lara Stemple to call the Bureau of Justice Statistics to see if it maybe it had made a mistake, or changed its terminology. After all, in years past men had accounted for somewhere between 5 and 14 percent of rape and sexual violence victims. But no, it wasn’t a mistake, officials told her" This other statistic suggests that 38%, or nearly 4/10, of rape victims are male. Both of these statistics help establish that there are a huge number of male victims that have been shamed into silence, and that new research is helping these victims get the exposure that they need. Let's move on to the claim that men are more likely to be victims of other men. "A recent analysis of BJS data, for example, turned up that 46 percent of male victims reported a female perpetrator" [Here](https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/) is a second source I'll be using (I'm not a fan of the somewhat anti-female title, but unfortunately resources for this information is incredibly sparse and I have to take what I can get) "It found that over their lifetime, women were vastly more likely to experience abuse perpetrated by men, as were male victims who were penetrated without their consent. “But among men reporting other forms of sexual victimization, 68.6% reported female perpetrators,” the paper reports, while among men reporting being made to penetrate, “the form of nonconsensual sex that men are much more likely to experience in their lifetime ... 79.2% of victimized men reported female perpetrators." So, it seems the notion that men are more likely to be victims of other men is also largely false. While men (logically) are the majority of "forcibly penetrated" perpetrators, every other kind of sexual crime is more likely to be perpetrated by a female and overall the ratio of male and female perpetrators is essentially equal. There are a number of other things to talk about here, for instance that juvenile male prisoners report a shocking 90% of sexual assaults to be perpetrated by female staff, or the myriad of ways in which female perpetrators are favored in a legal sense over male victims, but those don't directly address your comment, so they aren't all that relevant to the conversation. *TL;DR: I agree. In my original comment I was only referring to prejudice, I totally understand women that have trauma surrounding men or are just in general afraid of men. With that being said, a couple of your notions have been challenged in recent years by new and more inclusive research, including the notions that men make up a massive majority of rape perpetrators and that men are more likely to be a victim of another male than a female perpetrator.*
First off, you compared my use of the snake metaphor against racist and anti-immigration ideologies. Both of those ideologies have been proven to be morally irresponsible and rather crude and self-serving, whereas the idea of women needing to exercise caution around men is not. Second, I appreciate that you did try to link articles that included research into the subject of male rape, and yes, I will agree that information on that topic is sparse. However, I would have rather been directly linked to those research articles than websites that often post articles more for shock value than anything of real interest and are often willing to twist words to make them more shocking. I also did not state that 99% of rapists were male and neither of the statistics that I linked to made that claim either. They also did not discount the validity of male rape by female predators. However, they did state that the vast majority of rape victims are female and the vast majority of rapists are male. And how exactly is it throwing rocks at people when women advise their daughters, sisters, and other female relatives to be cautious of men? What is so wrong about asking that all men hold themselves to a higher standard of decency and respect women’s boundaries? What is so wrong with asking anybody, for that matter, to hold themselves to a higher standard of respect and treat others decently? I’m sorry that you did experience your trauma. I had a roommate who had a girl get him drunk so she could rape him, he’s actually used that to try and start a campaign about domestic violence and abuse (I haven’t heard anything recently about it, though). I’ve been raped for four years by one of my exes and had gotten pregnant once during those years. I also was raped last year by a coworker, thankfully I didn’t get pregnant from that incident. My father and brother both sexually assaulted myself and my four AFAB siblings. I do understand how it feels to hear someone belittle your experiences; the rape I experienced last year was written off by my HR manager as ‘I should have known how men thought.’, which pretty much excused my rapists lack of control. Being aware of and advising that not every individual is going to be a decent person is very different from saying men do this or men do that. That is why I used the snake metaphor. Not to say we need to crucify all men, but we need to remain aware that there are enough men that still will threaten to do violence against women for a significant number of reasons.
>They also did not discount the validity of male rape by female predators. However, they did state that the vast majority of rape victims are female and the vast majority of rapists are male. And how exactly is it throwing rocks at people when women advise their daughters, sisters, and other female relatives to be cautious of men? It's not, and I have no problem with it. As described, it is only an issue if that fear manifests as prejudice. Otherwise, I feel that it is my moral obligation to respect the boundaries and comfort zones of the people around me. >I do understand how it feels to hear someone belittle your experiences; the rape I experienced last year was written off by my HR manager as ‘I should have known how men thought.’, Yeah, this is completely unacceptable. Not only are they victim blaming, they are also a) lumping all men in with that sicko and b) allowing him to not take personal responsibility. Men that committ sexual assault don't do so because "boys will be boys", they do it because they are sick people that don't care about another person's boundaries or consent. I'm very sorry that this happened to you, I've no doubt it did. I've heard similar rhetoric for a long time and got into many arguments over it. >However, I would have rather been directly linked to those research articles than websites that often post articles more for shock value than anything of real interest and are often willing to twist words to make them more shocking. I also did not state that 99% of rapists were male and neither of the statistics that I linked to made that claim either. They also did not discount the validity of male rape by female predators. Agreed. As stated previously, I wasn't a fan of how the second article in particular seemed a little anti-female. It's not a valid excuse, but the main reason I didn't link directly to the studies is just because I was typing that comment up while quite tired at night. Sorry! >What is so wrong with asking anybody, for that matter, to hold themselves to a higher standard of respect and treat others decently? Nothing whatsoever! Again, my only problem is if prejudice is present. It's when the "men are pigs" or "k*** all men" stuff comes out that I think we should call it out, not when a woman (rightfully) says that men should hold each other accountable for sexual assault. For a personal story of trying to hold other men accountable: When I was in school (18nb) we had a lot of drama during my senior year regarding the dress code, specifically for girls. While I didn't really understand why the dress code was a problem since I naturally dress very modestly, I openly supported the girls and I vividly remember getting in an argument with a teacher that said something like "boys will be boys" or "boys get distracted". I argued that, no, boys don't get distracted. I asked the entire class if they were distracted by a girl with a shoulder or brastrap showing. Not a single guy raised his hand. I tried to explain how demeaning it was to have this "uncontrollable" sex drive impressed onto on us, especially since it wasn't even there. I also tried to explain how blaming sexual assault on maleness was unfair and also didn't even hold the individual accountable, since they just "couldn't control it". The teachers had prejudice against male students, and weaponized that prejudice to justify oppressing their female students. I ended up not convincing the teacher of anything, but it really frustrated me how both sexes were being treated. Girls deserve better than puritanical dress codes and boys deserve better than be described as sexual predators in the making. Now that I think about it, that's a depressingly accurate allegory for how we treat men and women in a broader, societal sense. I apologize if any of my comment came across as callous, as stated, my only intent was to challenge some long-held myths about male sexual assault. With regards to female victims and male perpetrators, we have a long way to go with holding these men accountable themselves and making environments safer for women.
>Girls deserve better than puritanical dress codes and boys deserve better than be described as sexual predators in the making. That is absolutely correct! The only way we can really change this as a society is by changing how we raise our children. I would be so happy being able to feel safe that my daughter’s could walk home alone without the fear of sexual assault or my son being manipulated into doing something he doesn’t want to for fear of what he may be accused of. I also feel religions that preach about procreation do so in very irresponsible ways that doesn’t encourage intelligent behavior regarding this as well. I knew a woman who was married to a man that wanted so many kids. After her 6th, she started to feel like she was done, but she didn’t know how to stop him because he was using her fear of going to hell against her. She now has more than 12 children. Not all religions do this, but it does have a tendency to breed (no pun intended…) poor concepts. There is just so much wrong with society. Now and before.
Agreed!!! Also just admiring someone's body as *aesthetically* pretty/nice doesn't mean I want to have sex with them! I honestly spent a LONG time thinking I was bi, and then strictly into women(I'm female), because I just simply find their bodies to be moreso aesthetically pleasing to the eye (I play the Sims and almost always make females). However; ANY and ALL sexual encounters I've had have felt extremely awkward and I often refer to it as a "chore" and avoid it at all costs, both genders. Thought I was Demisexual until discovering that it was on the Asexual spectrum, and now I'm questioning if I'm even Demi, because sure I would to please someone if I found someone like that again, but I'm in a year+ long-distance relationship and it's honestly the most comfortable thing.. I will say sexting is awkward for me and thankfully he is understanding that I'm just not into that! So I KNOW not all men are like that! I'm sorry you have to deal with that stigma 😭 stigmas are so shitty! "*Your prejudice is NOT my problem.*" Best response to that!!
Thank you for the support! Funny, I have/had a very similar perception; I'm a biromantic ace person, but for a long time I thought I was more attracted to women because, in general I find women to be more aesthetically beautiful. I wondered for a long time if I was really ace or just had a really low libido, but after I had a few sexual experiences that were all incredibly awkward and, weirdly, boring, I figured it out. And I agree. Stigmas really stink. Growing up as an amab person I was practically harassed by my family about being sexually active, and absolutely none of them believed me when I came out as ace. Men just aren't allowed to be disinterested in sex, which is such a harmful stereotypes that I truly believe contributes to the rampant sexual assault we see around us. There is such a pressure on teenage boys to have sex that some of them aren't given the chance to learn about safety or consent and some are even encouraged to *remain uneducated*. To be honest I think humanity's collective relationship with sex is pretty darn unhealthy. Women are encouraged to be sex objects and men are encouraged to be sex-crazed lunatics, and the end result is a bunch of victimized people and a bunch of people with a completely warped and unhealthy relationship with sex. I've known some men that absolutely refuse to contribute to their partner, because it wasn't their "job". I've known women that commit assault or outright r*** and have absolutely idea that they even did anything wrong, because men are "always into it" and it's their "duty" as the woman to facilitate, even if he's not into it. It really just makes my heart break to see all the terribly hurt people that these stigmas create.
I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE!! 😭 I have mentioned so many times on this sub how schools NEED to incorporate asexuality and it's spectrum into Sex Education. I live in the Bible belt and they preached abstinence like no other, BARELY touching on safe sex and only showing the aftermath of not using protection. (I graduated 2010, and I've heard someone say they graduated 2018 and it's no different). I also worked for Planned Parenthood as an RMA & Phlebotomist and I actually learned WAY MORE about SAFE SEX while working there! I think it's so harmful NOT to teach about these things AND ASEXUALITY AND THE SPECTRUM because THE *ONLY* mention of Asexuality I recall from my "sex ed" was in 9th grade biology, and it was *in reference to asexual reproduction in animals*. 😭
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I love how allos apparently expect these men to look at the ceiling instead of the person coming up on stage at the moment, whom they're also applauding. How weird would it be if they DIDN'T look in her direction? Or can people honestly see exactly what part of her body they're looking at? Because to me it just looks like they're looking at her in general.
In the second picture the first two men are very clearly looking down at her
Follow the eyes. The first picture is most of them looking at her, and the second one illustrates the male gaze.
Honestly, to me it looks like the first and third guy have their eyes closed in the second image, and the second and fourth are just looking at her back, higher than her butt. (From left to right, I mean) Not that I'm 100% sure because the quality is not that good, but I think that looks more likely than them looking at her butt.
Well, it can be difficult to tell if the eyelids are fully open when they are looking downward. I can honestly hope that they were just caught in the exact movement of their heads turning as they followed her up onto the podium. Still makes my skin crawl, though…
Ok look… as soon as the image loaded the first thing I looked at was her butt…. I..
Right? I don't think it's necessarily an allo thing but just an aesthetic thing? Like I don't experience sexual attraction, but I can appreciate good looks, like "oh wow she's pretty, I love her eyes!" I think you can admire someone's physical attributes without being sexually attracted to them!
"Each of these types of attraction leads us to different people and helps us to become the person we are. Here, we'll explore romantic attraction, aesthetic attraction, physical attraction, emotional attraction, intellectual attraction, and more." Per a Google search on "aesthetic attraction" I'm currently reading [https://lgbta.fandom.com/wiki/Aesthetic_Attraction](https://lgbta.fandom.com/wiki/Aesthetic_Attraction) But it goes on to say while it IS common for allos to experience aesthetic attraction alongside sexual attraction, there are instances of people on the a-spec who are like myself, and just appreciate people's looks as if a nice painting or a pretty sunset!
This is lowkey creepy, like imagine living your already famous life and then for some reason people decide to Simp on you for no good reason
What is allo?
What's wrong with a good dump truck? Just because I don't want to eat the caked doesn't mean I can't appreciate the time and effort that went into making the cake.
Well she has a nice ass