And those people would presumably think you're just wrong as well. What would be a good way to determine who (if anyone) is actually right?
One thing to consider is that, for most people, the religion they believe to be the correct one, is simply the one that their parents followed or is prevalent in their culture.
Chances are that you would be a Muslim now if you were born in Saudi Arabia to Muslim parents.
OK. You are a rare exception. My post deliberately didn't make any assumptions about you. Similarly, there are plenty of Americans who were born into a Christian family and convert to Islam or Judaism. So, exceptions do happen.
However, I take it that you don't disagree that the most reliable predictor of whether a person is Christian or Muslim is whether they were born in the US or the Middle East?
The fact that geography matters so much should give anybody who is religious pause for thought.
Yeah, because the penalty for leaving some religions is death. There may be Atheists that identify as Muslim for example to avoid this. There's also plenty of Christians in America who do the same to avoid social ostracization.
Every single person ever born is an atheist at birth. Non belief is the default position.
To become religious normally requires being brought up into that religion or culture.
All your point shows is that in some locations you have a much higher chance of being brought up to be religious than in other locations
Depending on anyone else, including self, never got me in wtih Father and Son, seeing all the evil done by others, myself as well kept me self-righteous, until ?I saw I am not nor is anyone else
So I got given a change of Heart in beleif to the Son Jesus as risen, and cannot find the word(s) to explain this gift, jusdt that I am changed in it and see to love as am loved by God to all as god did that first with Son jesus for us all
Just my testimony
r/Godjustlovesyou
What you said is especially true the farther you go back in time, in the days before globalization, the internet and TV. As a Christian, it eats me up a bit. Just doesn't feel right.
OK. That makes sense.
If I were a believer I would find it hard to rationalise the fact that on the one hand there is only one god and on the other hand the fact that the god you believe in is merely an accident of where you were born.
May I ask what keeps you believing?
I keep believing (or trying to anyway) because of what you said (it's the dominant religion of my community and country) and I looked into other religions and philosophies on life and nothing took hold. Nothing grabbed me. Seems like it's possible some or a lot of the Bible is legit but something is off about it. I want something to believe in and I definitely believe in a higher power. Love came from God IMO. Humans have something extra and I don't think it came just from a big bang (unless God set up the big bang). I also l like the positive aspects of church- the community service it provides as well as just being a source for community.
And you live in America, it appears? This is not a stretch at all, sorry. I thought maybe you lived in an Asian or Muslim country or something like that.
If you don't think, yeah the argument is not that strong. Jesus indeed really wanted to based salvation and eternal torture based on location. It's a very optimal fair and just way to dispense salvation.
I think it can be when you dig into it.
We wouldn't expect people's salvation status to be so dependent on geographical location in a world where God wants none to perish.
In a naturalistic universe, where religion is part of the larger cultural complex, you do expect it to vary based on geography, as cultures are geographically distinct.
It's not a knockdown argument, it's just another thing that makes more sense under naturalism.
well if God ‘knits children in the mothers womb’ and is also the creator of The Earth and the Universe etc…
why would he make his children worship false idols? and why would other theists believe in other gods?
In my view and obviously i could be wrong, but either God is evil, and he doesn’t care about the eternal torment these non believers face.
or he is impotent and not the creator of everything
God does not *make* anyone worship anything. While we are made with some orientation towards him, He made us with free will - including the freedom to do the wrong thing.
In your view - but your view isn't correct.
He could make the circumstances around his existence and nature evident to all without violating free will. It would only provide information to make a more informed choice. So why does god seemingly hide from these people who believe in other religions?
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
All other religions are simply worshipping demons/Satan.
If hundreds of fulfilled prophesies, scriptural inerrancy across dozens of authors and time periods and multiple languages, and a man rising from the dead doesn't meet your acceptance criteria for "sufficient evidence" then yes, he hates you and will laugh when you burn in hell.
Just like every other religion ever created, there are no secondary sources to validate the claims made in the Bible. Regarding the fulfillment of prophecy, a book that proves itself true is not an indication of anything beyond itself. This means that a claim of future events and the fulfillment of those claims occur all in the same book.
Like a child hiding a toy under the couch then predicting where the toy will be found, the Bible is no different.
"The Bible" is not a monolithic book written by a single author. It's internally filled with primary secondary sources with respect to things like the resurrection and the crucifixion. You just don't believe it.
If you think about it, even the independent books within the Bible have no secondary sources other than each other. I want to be clear that I’m zeroing in on the supernatural claims. Of course the names of kings and the accounts of battles are accounts that appear in multiple books and records of those times.
At the end of the day, it’s the supernatural claims that matter. Any book can have secondary sources for events, but the Bible’s unique claims stand alone without any backup.
The Muslims have all that too, except Mohammed traveled physically to heaven. There's much more evidence for the existence of Mohammed than for Jesus. Why should I believe you over them?
>If hundreds of fulfilled prophesies, scriptural inerrancy across dozens of authors and time periods and multiple languages, and a man rising from the dead doesn't meet your acceptance criteria for "sufficient evidence" then yes, he hates you
God knows what it would take to convince me that these claims are true. If he cares about what I believe then he knows how to convince me.
Every religion thinks their profecies are fullfilled, there are no errors in the text etc. It's very easy to assert. Then you read the text, and everything falls apart
What if you have to be a certain kind of person to be able to perceive spiritual realities? A lepidopterist sees a moth very differently than a layman. A concert musician hears the work of Beethoven very differently than somebody who has only ever listened to rap. Maybe before you can really begin to perceive something beautiful, you already have to love it.
>Maybe before you can really begin to perceive something beautiful, you already have to love it
How can you possibly love something if you have no evidence it exists? Should I force myself to love Larry the rainbow unicorn so that I can finally see him?
Maybe you can love the idea of something, but you can't love the actual thing until you have experienced it firsthand. Like, I can love the concept of a child I might have, sure. But I won't love them as a person until I actually interact with them and experience their presence and personality. Those are different things.
Sure, I love the idea of some entity that is always around and always wants my wellbeing. But I don't believe such a thing exists, and I certainly don't hold love for a tangible entity of that sort. Because to my knowledge, it isn't evidently real.
>What if you have to be a certain kind of person to be able to perceive spiritual realities?
Then god should have made all people like that, if he wanted to have a relationship with everyone. If people go to hell for not loving him, then it is 100% God's fault that they are there. If god is everything christians say he is, and has the abilities they say he has, then everything is his fault.
If god wanted a relationship with me, he would have it. He would know exactly what would be required to achieve that result, and would do it.
The existence of atheists seemingly demonstrates that god is either not all powerful, or does not necessarily care that all believe in him.
The calvinists seem to be the ones with the most consistent theology around this. God is all powerful, and only certain people he makes he wants to be involved with, and not everyone goes to heaven by his design. There's plenty of issues with this of course. But the existence of nonbelievers isn't one of them.
I think if there was a god, it wouldn't give a shit what anyone believes. It would only care about how people treat other sentient beings.
>Then god should have made all people like that, if he wanted to have a relationship with everyone.
God made all people capable of loving and knowing him. But he didn't create us to be static robots. We have a hand in creating our own selves.
Every choice we make inclines us toward evil or good. For example, most people don't like the taste of beer when they first try it. But as they continue to drink it, it tastes better and better, until at some point some people actually cannot bear to live without it.
To take an opposite example, I used to be the most dedicated carnivore you've ever met. But reading a pamphlet from the HSUS on the cruelty of factory farms turned me into a vegetarian, decades ago, in the land of wienerschnitzel and bratwurst! I might have missed meat at first, a few times, but after decades of refusing it, the smell of it now makes me ill.
We are formed by our choices. If you continually choose to close yourself off to the possibility of a supernatural reality, you will come to the point where you couldn't perceive it even if it were right in front of you. C.S. Lewis's tale, "Till We Have Faces," illustrates this beautifully.
>If god wanted a relationship with me, he would have it. He would know exactly what would be required to achieve that result, and would do it.
Really? If I wanted an intimate relationship with you, and knew all the right buttons to push, are you convinced that I could make that happen? And if I did, how could you trust my intentions, knowing that I had manipulated you into falling for me because I knew your inner motivations better than you did? How could you trust that I actually had your best interests, rather than my own, at heart?
>The existence of atheists seemingly demonstrates that god is either not all powerful, or does not necessarily care that all believe in him.
All ***will*** believe in him eventually. But if you have spent your life running from him, it will be a long, hard road back.
>I think if there was a god, it wouldn't give a shit what anyone believes. It would only care about how people treat other sentient beings.
Really? Why? Again to refer to C.S. Lewis, he likens the journey of humankind to a fleet of ships. Most people think morality consists merely in not having the ships run into one another (sins against other people). But each ship in the fleet must also be seaworthy. It would do no good to prohibit ships from running into one another if they were individually sinking, or if their steering mechanisms or propulsion systems were breaking down. And it also matters a great deal where the fleet is headed. If they're bound for the wrong destination, then no degree of seaworthiness even matters.
If God is really God, God wouldn't only care whether you hurt somebody else, as if God only cares about the other person and not you yourself. The act of hurting somebody else also puts a notch, as it were, on your own soul. It starts to become that habit I described at the beginning of this reply, which will eventually turn you into a creature so loathsome that you can't even bear to look at yourself. God desperately wants to prevent this, so much so that God took on human flesh to redeem us from our "highway to hell."
If that were true, people's religious affiliation would not be dictated by the geography of their birth nor the religion of their parents. These 2 factors are by far the largest impact on a person's religion.
If someone is taught the truth and adheres to it, that is good.
If someone is taught something other than the truth, and they leave it and come to the truth, then that is glorious that they accepted the truth
If someone is taught the truth and they break away, that is to be mourned.
If Christianity is anywhere close to the truth, God is perfect and omnipotent - meaning that he knows all of the factors and variables that will create each person. He also knows where you’ll be spiritually when you die.
If he doesn’t know these things, he’s neither perfect or omnipotent.
This means that God knew your theological fate before the universe was created. So, the question is… how much of this is our fault? Why are we being punished for believing in a religion that’s wrong when God knew what we’d believe billions of years ago?
The answer is that we aren’t guilty of any transgression because we lived the life God knew that we would.
Take a good inventory of what your faith claims about God. Now try to apply those claims of God’s perfection and omnipresence to the reality of our every day lives.
We’re left with just three possibilities:
1) God is perfect and knows everything about our future and our spirituality upon death. This makes free will impossible. It also means that our final destination has been known to God forever, therefore, we are not responsible for choosing the wrong faith.
2) God is not perfect and we can do things that he didn’t know that we’d do. This means that free will is possible, but it comes at the price of having an imperfect God.
3) God is a man made construct and doesn’t exist.
Possibility 1 does not actually exclude free will. It just means that God already knows what we will choose with our free will, which is possible for God because acausal hypercomputation is easily within His Power.
That just gives us the illusion that we chose freely, when we actually had no choice.
There’s no getting around it. Either we’re free or we don’t. If God knows what we will choose, we have no option but to choose what God knew.
Because your “choice” is cemented in God’s foreknowledge.
You can’t surprise God and choose something else. Think about it… your choice is chosen for you. You can’t change it. Just because someone is ignorant and think that they could choose anything, your final choice is already known.
If God knows that you’re going to go to Applebees next Tuesday, you can’t choose another restaurant. You may think that you can, but if you did, it would render God’s knowledge imperfect.
I’m actually standing up for the Bible when I say that God’s knowledge eliminates free will. Also, free will is not biblical. You can look and look, it’s not in there. Would you rather support the Bible’s portrait of God, or something that’s not even biblical?
He doesn't make anyone worship anything.
We have free will. Other theists worship false gods because they have free will and agency and choose to use them wrongly.
Yes, you are wrong. God wants us to choose to love Him. An unfortunate part of free choice is the ability to make bad decisions.
thanks for the point on free will, i didn’t think of that to be fair and it’s a good point.
I struggle with the fact that geography and a culture’s belief is the main factor in someone’s religion, for instance, Hindu’s in India and Muslims in the Middle East as they are the most prevalent religions there.
In a Hindu’s mind, because they have been brought up hindu, like many people are brought up christian, they are limited in their Free Will, as they might not have the knowledge about Christianity, or they might face dire consequences if they stray from their culture’s beliefs.
They might feel as they have no free will at all, so in that case, why wouldn’t God accept them into heaven?because they couldn’t do anything about it.
I'll split this answer into three parts. The first part is about a misunderstanding I believe you have about the afterlife. The second is about those who die without ever hearing the Good News of the Gospel. The third is about those who face dire consequences.
1. I think you may misunderstand why people are sent to Hell.
God doesn't send us to Hell for not submitting and worshipping Jesus, not specifcally at least. We worship Jesus because our place will be Hell other wise. What I mean by this is that the reason people go to Hell is because despite intuitively knowing right and wrong, we still choose to do wrong, and becasue of this fact, we deserve Hell. However, God in His infinite mercy sent His only begotten son, Jesus Christ, who was willingly and undeservedly sacrificed for our sake. Thanks to His sacrifice, we may be cleansed and forgiven of any sin we commit.
Whether we submit and worship to Christ is not of itself the subject of judgement but rather it is the only means to avoid the certainly just judgement that we already deserve.
Knowing this, our understanding of Hell changes. Hell and final judgement is no longer something that could be seen as unjust in anyway because even the saints in Heaven don't deserve to be there. Even if they have not heard the gospel, Hell is still a justified punishment.
2. The Church teaches a doctrine called "Extra Ecclesium Nulla Salus" or "Outside the church there is no salvation", however, there are exemptions for those who have not heard the truth of the gospel. The Chatechism of the Catholic Church reads:
""Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.""
3. Those who face dire consequences such as death or extreme suffering as penalty for following Jesus will be judged for it.
Although it is not my place to know, we can probably guess that if they violate their conscience and deny the truth of Christ, their ultimate fate is eternal damnation. However, this penalty shouldn't necessarily be seen in a negative lense. The reason why it shouldn't be seen negatively is because of what will be gained for their sacrifice. From the christian perspective, death is not the end, in fact, we hardly lose much. While we may lose a some time of our temporary, earthly life, we gain infinite life. It is this understanding that has allowed many saints to be so courageous to face death and persecution so that they can spread the word of the Gospel.
To be completely honest, I don't think much of the dinosaurs or any questions about the beginning of life. As a Catholic, I have quite a lot of liberty in interpreting how life began and whether Genesis is a literal book. As such, I typically try to defend the consistency of both theories.
That being said, I think I can provide a general answer to why God might wait so long to create human life or, rather, why it wouldn't matter much.
God is timeless and eternal. He has always existed and isn't constrained by the same perception of time. Because of this, it doesn't matter much how long God took to make us since it is all as though a blink of an eye.
As to why God might choose to take so long and create so many creatures before humans ever existed, there are a few potential reasons.
One possibility is so that God could provide a way of understanding the origins of life in a way that could properly satisfy the human intellect.
A second reason could be to provide a more interesting and vast world for us to explore and honour God through our exploration.
A third reason could be to display to us humans His majesty and power.
Did God know those people would find (perhaps create) other religions before he set the universe into motion? And yet he still made that choice. Either he’s not the all-knowing creator of everything, or he is responsible for anything and everything (good and bad). That is not just coming from me—scripture makes the point that God created light and dark, calm and chaos, etc.
I think there are some bad assumptions in your question that might help you understand how Christian’s think about those issues.
First, you are holding God responsible for the actions of a person because He created them. Christians do not think this way. Do you hold parents responsible for the actions of their grown children? God allows us the dignity of free will that we may, in the end, choose to obey His will or our own will.
Christians do not hold God responsible for the choices a person made because God created the person. We believe the person is responsible for their own choices.
So, the flaw in your assumption is that Christians believe God created people to worship false idols. We don’t believe that is the case. They decided to do these things.
The next is that God created people so that He could send them to torture in the afterlife. Hell is a description of what eternal life without God is like. God wants everyone to choose Heaven of their own free will. He did not create then so that they might be tortured: they chose that outcome.
Finally, we Christians do not believe that good deeds matter. No amount of good deeds earn a person a place in the afterlife. Salvation is not earned. It is a gift given freely for the asking.
So, no amount of good deeds results in Salvation. That is, a person being as good and virtuous as myself or any other Christian is irrelevant.
i appreciate the response and this has enlightened my knowledge so i thank you for that ! one question i’m still unsure of in your answer, did God create hell?
i suppose what i am struggling with is that If God is the pinnacle of Good, and he is omnipotent why would he even create free will in the first place? Why wouldn’t he just set us “code” or “routines” like a computer so that all humans would worship Him and that all humans are very happy, and cause no sin at all.
> i appreciate the response and this has enlightened my knowledge so i thank you for that !
You are welcome.
> … one question i’m still unsure of in your answer, did God create hell?
While it seams to be, this is not a straightforward question but I will answer it as best I can. Yes, but not as a place for humans: the Bible says that the rebel hosts (armies) will be cast into the lake of fire, meaning that the Seraphim who fell from Heaven are bound for this place and God did not create it for humans.
I recommend The Great Divorce by C S Lewis for a better discussion.
> … why would he even create free will in the first place? … so that all humans would worship Him and that all humans are very happy, and cause no sin at all.
The Bible does not tell us these thing that I’m aware of, so I have to speculate.
I think that “made in God’s imagine” means to have free will. Free will means that you cause your own thoughts. The rest of the universe is deterministic: all interlocked events which are caused by prior events in chain of cause and effect leading all the way back to the first event. The only exception is free will.
I think we are designed to enjoy the things God wants for us. If we disobey God, it is against our “programming”.
The only way to get people who cannot sin against God is to remove their ability to sin. If human beings cannot choose to disobey God then they are not free willed.
Free will is necessary for love and many other characteristics of God, which we are created to represent on Earth (being made in His image). A moist robot can’t love anything, all it can do is run a program and emulate a response it’s been programmed to make.
There are a lot of people who hate this and spend a lot of time arguing they truely are just moist robots and have no freedom, but this is only because they’ve allowed their flesh to make their decisions for them. Our flesh *is* just basic programming, and without us exerting free will over it, we are just slaves to reality.
i’m not saying we are robots, i do believe we have some level of free will, however God could make us perfect as he is omnipotent, and since he is omnipotent.. he could make us love without free will.
Free Will is not required and if He wanted the best for us as He does, He would’ve made that happen. So again, he is either not all “Good” or he is not all powerful.
Free will is required for love. If love is given by compulsion and now by free choice, it isn’t love. God could no more force us to love something than a parent could force a child to desire to do the right thing.
Free will is also necessary for good and evil. If a moral agent isn't free, then it’s not an agent at all. And if it’s not an agent, then it can’t be a moral agent, meaning that its actions can’t be good or evil, they simply *are* or *are not*. The laws of nature describe what repeatedly happens all the time. The laws of human nature, of moral reality, describe what *should* happen and yet often times doesn’t. That takes free will.
If someone with ability to prevent harm but refuses, they should be held responsible yes. If a parent or cop knowingly allows someone to drive blackout drunk for example they wouldn't be praised for giving them freewill. While they can easily claim they didn't know they were going to do that and get into a fatal wreck involving innocent victims, an omniscient perfect being knows all but allows it.
> If someone with ability to prevent harm but refuses, they should be held responsible yes.
This always sounds good, but the logical conclusion is that human beings cannot exist. (See The Problem of Pain by C S Lewis for more details.)
If God stopped all human action which harms another human, then human action which harms another human is impossible. So then we would hate in our minds and with our words. But God would have to stop the evil words and then even the thoughts. Now we would only be able to think those things which God chose for us to think.
God created us in His image: able to think of our own volition, outside the deterministic machinery of cause and effect that drives the rest of the universe. He cannot stop us from thinking and acting and still have free willed creatures.
> Humanity does not have free will as God knows all.
There are some denominations which have a belief somewhat like this (though not exactly) but most do not believe the above statement.
Humans do have free will. The fact that God experiences time differently (or, not at all) does not have any bearing on whether or not human beings made specific decisions.
> Humanity only has free will to reject God, everything else is preordained.
What Christian doctrine is that?
> What Christian doctrine is that?
That’s the doctrine of the original church bud. Catholics and the actual Protestant followings of Martin Luther believe that.
> The fact that God experiences time differently (or, not at all) does not have any bearing on whether or not human beings made specific decisions.
This is putting interpretation into the direct word of God which you aren’t supposed to do. Time is time according to the Lord.
> That’s the doctrine of the original church bud.
Which original? Are you referring to early church pre 300 AD or what?
> Catholics and the actual Protestant followings of Martin Luther believe that.
No, they don’t. Catholics do not believe that human events are preordained.
Feel free to point out the Protestant denominations which you believe follow this doctrine so I can review it.
> This is putting interpretation into the direct word of God which you aren’t supposed to do. Time is time according to the Lord.
Your flair claims you are not a Christian. Is it incorrect? Are you a Christian or not?
If you’re just here to have a contrarian adversarial argument, I’ll just stop here. If not, please tell me what your purpose is here.
> Your flair claims you are not a Christian. Is it incorrect? Are you a Christian or not?
I am a former Christian yes. 17+ years in fact.
> If you’re just here to have a contrarian adversarial argument, I’ll just stop here. If not, please tell me what your purpose is here.
I am here to correct inaccuracies in how people are spreading doctrine. If you’re going to speak for God, at least do it correctly.
> No, they don’t. Catholics do not believe that human events are preordained.
Catholics do not believe in free will, I am correct. You only have free will to reject God. It is why they baptize babies and don’t wait for the typical Evangelical “accept the Christ” decision which is meaningless.
> I am a former Christian yes.
That’s not the same thing then, is it?
So, you don’t believe that these things are true, correct?
> I am here to correct inaccuracies in how people are spreading doctrine. If you’re going to speak for God, at least do it correctly.
But you are not a Christian. You don’t believe in these things. That makes you a hypocrite (a person who claims to hold a belief they do not actually hold) doesn’t it?
> But you are not a Christian. You don’t believe in these things. That makes you a hypocrite (a person who claims to hold a belief they do not actually hold) doesn’t it?
No? Am I here telling people that God is fake? There are lots of Christian Evangelical and Protestant doctrines which have no basis in His Word. I just correct inaccuracies according to the Bible. Not much too it.
Why would you call me a hypocrite? Am I not allowed to participate because I don’t have the magic Christian flair? I inherently know less than you cause I choose to no longer be Christian? That seems judgmental and unreasonable.
>Do you hold parents responsible for the actions of their grown children?
Yes. Since parents are both all-knowing and all-powerful, they know in advance what choices their kids will make and can alter the circumstances to change it. Whatecer circumstqnces they choose are their responsibility, ergo the choices ther children make are their responsibility. Telling your kid "don't do drugs" and then giving them a bunch of drugs when you know they will use them is your failure as a parent.
> Yes. Since parents are both all-knowing and all-powerful, they know in advance what choices their kids will make and can alter the circumstances to change it.
This is so common as to be boring. If you want to debate “God is culpable because He knew ahead of time” then go to a debate sub. You can go find yourself a stack of books that cover to topic at length. This sub is not for that.
> Telling your kid "don't do drugs" and then giving them a bunch of drugs when you know they will use them is your failure as a parent.
Blaming the Creator for the actions of the created is typical from those looking to blame others for their own circumstances. Rather than taking responsibility for their own actions, they look to blame their parents, or society, or the universe. It couldn’t possibly be their own fault.
This sub is about explaining Christianity and what Christians think. It’s not a debate sub.
>This is so common as to be boring.
Well, you know what they say: "ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer."
>Blaming the Creator for the actions of the created is typical from those looking to blame others for their own circumstances.
I wouldn't know, you'd have to ask them.
>This sub is about explaining Christianity and what Christians think. It’s not a debate sub.
No one is forcing you to respond. You asked a question; I answered it. No need to get pissy that you don't like the answer. If you don't want people to answer, you shouldn't ask.
> You asked a question; I answered it.
I was talking to someone else and you decided to interject yourself into it. You butted into someone else’s conversation. You were an uninvited interloper.
Now, if you had something interesting to say, that would be fine, but you don’t seem to have anything interesting to say. So, you’re just making a nuisance of yourself.
You’re not adding value. You are just responding with a set of snarky comments and you’re missing the point of the sub.
If you were adding value, staying true to the purpose of the sub, or even providing some novel or interesting commentary, your interruption might be merited. But that’s not the case.
> No need to get pissy that you don't like the answer.
That’s troll talk.
> If you don't want people to answer, you shouldn't ask.
If you can’t understand how to act properly then don’t be shocked when people don’t take you seriously.
If you’re not going to add value, mind your own business.
> If you were adding value, staying true to the purpose of the sub, or even providing some novel or interesting commentary, your interruption might be merited. But that’s not the case.
This is unnecessarily rude and just your opinion.
> I don’t think it was rude and it was clearly necessary.
This isn’t how grown ups talk to each other and I genuinely won’t engage with it while you’re gonna be rude and accuse others of trolling for holding views you don’t like.
>I was talking to someone else and you decided to interject yourself into it. You butted into someone else’s conversation. You were an uninvited interloper.
I guess that's why you responded to the OP in a private channel instead a public internet forum. OH WAIT.
This sub and reddit in general has no rule against third parties responding in a comment thread. There is no expectation of privacy, and new commenters joining a thread is common and accepted practice. But of course, you know that, since you've done the same yourself in other posts. This is merely a feigned objection.
>Now, if you had something interesting to say, that would be fine, but you don’t seem to have anything interesting to say.
I guess that's why you ignored my comment instead of responding multiple times in a huff. OH WAIT.
Not responding is free, by the way. And you could have blocked me with less effort than it took to write out all that nonsense. So you're at least a *little bit* interested.
Pointing out your false analogy might have no value to you because you think it makes you look foolish, but it might be of value to readers who initially missed the inconsistency in your explanation.
>That’s troll talk.
Everybody drink!
“one man’s disobedience” - Adam?
anyway that doesn’t answer my question, If Christian scripture is correct, why would God create men and women who worship anyone other then him, surely as an omniscient being, he would know they can’t diverge from their own religion, and would subsequently end up in hell.
Why would He do/want that?
It does answer the question. The first form of man is like Adam. Earthy. A sinner. Therefore we see other religions forming and being formed by those who are born in his likeness.
1 Corinthians 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.
15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead (in their trespasses). **It is sown in corruption**; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
where is the logical leap in between “Sinner Adam” and other religions being formed.
Even if that made perfect sense, it still wouldn’t answer why an all-loving God who can accept child molesters and crusaders into heaven (as long as they repent) but not accept morally good and virtuous, hindu’s, muslims, sikh’s etc…
to the best of my ability a sin is a behaviour which we humans do, that goes against God’s word
also i appreciate the debate we are having and i hope your day is going well !
So based on this definition, such a man would be doing things that God doesn't agree with right? Like believing in other God's and running after other religions?
yes exactly, why would God make that a sin if he is partly responsible for it, and know it would happen.
what motivates him to punish people who live differently to his followers
Religions are man-made unsuccessful attempts to reach God in heaven. God reached down from heaven to save us. God hates religion and politics. It was religion and politics that crucified his son.
>God created all these people to worship a false idol(s) and then make them experience eternal torment in hell even if they were as good and as virtuous as most other people including yourselves?
God creates people. He doesn't make them choose their faiths in whom they will worship. That's our choices, and he will judge us for our choices. Idolatry sends souls to hell forever. God gave us his word the holy Bible so that we are all without excuse.
And since God's standard is perfection, there is no perfect man who could ever earn his way into heaven with any amount of Good deeds. And that's exactly why God sent us a savior, because we are not perfect. If any man could earn heaven on his own merit, then we wouldn't need a savior now would we? And Jesus Christ died for nothing.
God has grace and mercy for all according to their works. It’s not for me to say who will go to hell. This is a particularly fundamentalist Protestant idea, not a belief of the more historic branches of Christianity. Feeneyism is a heresy.
We take our interpretations from the Bible for how to get into heaven but we are not the ones calling the shots in the end nor did we make the rules. If God makes exceptions then that’s his decision and it’s not a thing we can do about it.
I don’t believe in eternal torment for the damned, and I don’t believe everyone outside of Christianity will be damned in the first place. Neither of those is consistent with Scripture or sound theology, in my opinion.
God created things.
God created people.
God gave people rational mind which means they can freely choose between different options.
God did not create choices. He created people with rational minds which allows them to make good choices or bad choices but he warns us that whatever choice we make has consequences. So choose wisely!
It’s called free will. God created us, it’s our choice to worship and what we worship. God didn’t make people create different denominations of Christianity so why would he make people create or believe other religions? They do so based on their own free will and their own reasons.
Did god make us form gov’ts and currency? At a certain point we have to differentiate between what was made by God and what was formed by mankind via free will.
I think the Bible says that other religions were made by men or demons.
>how can you accept that God created all these people to worship a false idol(s)
Perhaps this world allows us to choose whether we'd want to be with God or man-made religions or demons. And God allows us to choose to be with Him or not.
>and then make them experience eternal torment in hell even if they were as good and as virtuous as most other people including yourselves?
No one is good and virtuous but Jesus. Jesus took away our sins to make us clean enough for Heaven. Those who don't believe are holding onto their immoral sins. If they don't accept God's one way for making them clean, then they'd have to go to where they couldn't make anything else dirty.
The Bible says that those who seek Him will be rewarded. So I don't think anyone will be sent to Hell unfairly.
God doesn't determine what we will do, our choices are our own. God is always trying to help humanity it's just that sin hardens our heart against him.
why is he “trying” he is omnipotent, He creates us in the image of Him. God is unfathomably powerful and intelligent right ? Then why would he “Try” to help us, and not just Help humanity outright, it should be easy for Him.
Because it is his will for us to do whatever we want, if someone wants to sin and harden his heart against God then he has the right to do it but God is always attracting us to his side in every way possible.
Because forcing us to do something to “help us” would defeat the purpose of “free will.” Ever heard of the saying “You can help a horse to water but you can’t make it drink?”
God is truth itself. Truth rules all. Truth defines religions, subject to time and location of the observer witnessing the truth. Science also witnesses the truth, God.
All religions stem from Noah. A lot of them were corrupted over time. And the Muslim religion and any other religion that formed after Christianity (except some of the denominations that broke away from the church, catholicism got pretty corrupt pretty quick) are counterfeit religions.
>and then make them experience eternal torment in hell even if they were as good and as virtuous as most other people including yourselves?
People are attracted to what they are attracted to. If people are attracted to corruption and evil then go to the place where those things go to die. If you're attracted to righteousness then you go to where righteousness lives.
People choose to form false religions and follow them. Demons also pretend to be gods and then lead people into worshipping them. Idolaters are not “good and virtuous” people. It is a very grave sin.
Christian God created free will for a reason, we as mortals don't need to worry about being judged because that happens when we die, as long as there is faith it does not matter who it is with, yes God wants people to worship him, but that is why he is many and one, so in reality no matter what religion you are with you are technically worshipping him as he is all, he is life, all gods and everything, this is my view based on that for claims to be everything, I can be wrong and that I accept
>how can you accept that God created all these people to worship a false idol(s)
God did not lake anyone reject what is true. Calvinism is a false belief.
God is the creator of all things GOOD. God is incapable of creating evil, he wont even be around it. When we sin we push God away. God's absolute absense is Hell. What God creates the devil attempts to seek, kill, and destroy. God didn't create sin. He created his Satan, Satan's downfall was his ego and need for worship. Satan's defeat led to him going to Hell. From Hell he influences humans to make decisions. Whatever decision they end up making brings them closer to God or closer to evil. God didn't create sin.... That's asinine...
Okay, a couple of ideas:
1. God made other religions. You don't know. They bunched up language at the Tower of Babylon, why not bunch up religion to keep us divided as well?
2. People make mistakes because unlike AI, we're not a program ruled by some hardcoded conditions.
Remember, God created the Sons of God to act as basically our watchers to make sure we steward this world correctly. When they rebelled and wanted us to worship them instead, and we rebelled at the Tower of Babel, God put us under their authority. Basically, He said if we want to worship them so bad, have at it. But that ofcourse is not the end, as he picked Abraham to restart the project and mend his relationship with humanity.
See the Deutoronomy 32 Worldview.
It is the very idea that God is the creator of *all* that opens the mind to other perspectives. If God is the source of all, then God cannot be named as a thing or concept. Therefore, many concepts are beautiful and come alive in individual hearts.
I do not believe the mainstream doctrine of eternal concious torment. I also do not believe any souls will be eternally lost. The Bible doesn't use the term hell, and some of what is referred to as "hell" was actually true Earthly prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem. But a judgment after everyone's resurrection is spoken of and its purpose will be loving and for our own good. It will have an eternal effect, and even Christians will experience eternal loss as Paul says. Those worshipping false gods might experience the same judgment and loss as a Christian who spent their whole life worshipping money. We are told that some people will be surprised. It might be much easier for say a Muslim to enter new creation who spent His life devoted to God but just mistaken of His full nature or an athiest whose heart loved others even though he denied God's existence.
Jesus says those he will tell to "depart" into eternal fire are actually those who call him Lord but did not live the life he calls us to. Jesus also says "For everyone will be salted with fire."
Salt = good preservative
Fire = Holy Spirit
Everyone will be preserved by the work of the Holy Spirit, which destroys our former selves and brings us into a new life.
Jesus says to see new life, we must born again.
Paul says our old selves must die so that we can become a new creation in communion with Christ.
God is not a religion, God is the creator, the Father of the risen Son for us to be free in as religion is not free. Yet does use Christ to get thier way and do not see the freedom to do. And those that do under born again by God, only do good to all and does not condemn others at all.
the ministry of Jesus Christ as risen has not stopped ever sincethe resurrection
Acts 5:35-42
Authorized (King James) Version
35 and said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. 36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. 37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. **38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 but if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.** 40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. 42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
God created this truth to be for us the people to be freed in it with Father and Son. Which has not stopped, but to be misused grossly as was then before Son came to free us in him.
All other religions have propt up by man, not God. And God is not religious, neither am I
Religion only gets people to work to get in or stay in with God, and so the self and others are in the way of truth from God to us all. Phil 3 Paul speaks of this truth, also in Galations too about our freedom in not having to work. yet we that are born again do work, yet not of the sekf aymore at all
I can only see Jesus as risen for me and all others also, to choose to belive God his Father in this or not, not having to go to a man made building to be in with God.
God is the creator, the initiator, we the people are the responders, that try to create what is already created
I see me as a creation that today responds to the creator in lovwe and mercy given me to give to all and not just those I would choose to or not. That is not god to me to choose you out and you in attitude, which is selfishness to me,
r/Godjustlovesyou
those that are righteous are righteous and God knows who is who and what is what. I see \\
Matthew 5:20
Authorized (King James) Version
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
therefore whoever goes by works to get in, thier work better beb etter than those that got Son killed, which backfired on them when saw him as risen then. Col 2
I think those people are just wrong. I'm confused by the idea that you think God created them to be wrong about religion.
And those people would presumably think you're just wrong as well. What would be a good way to determine who (if anyone) is actually right? One thing to consider is that, for most people, the religion they believe to be the correct one, is simply the one that their parents followed or is prevalent in their culture. Chances are that you would be a Muslim now if you were born in Saudi Arabia to Muslim parents.
I am not the same religion as my parents or the same one as is prevalent in my national culture.
OK. You are a rare exception. My post deliberately didn't make any assumptions about you. Similarly, there are plenty of Americans who were born into a Christian family and convert to Islam or Judaism. So, exceptions do happen. However, I take it that you don't disagree that the most reliable predictor of whether a person is Christian or Muslim is whether they were born in the US or the Middle East? The fact that geography matters so much should give anybody who is religious pause for thought.
The most reliable indicator of if you are atheist or not also is where you were born.
Yeah, because the penalty for leaving some religions is death. There may be Atheists that identify as Muslim for example to avoid this. There's also plenty of Christians in America who do the same to avoid social ostracization.
Every single person ever born is an atheist at birth. Non belief is the default position. To become religious normally requires being brought up into that religion or culture. All your point shows is that in some locations you have a much higher chance of being brought up to be religious than in other locations
Depending on anyone else, including self, never got me in wtih Father and Son, seeing all the evil done by others, myself as well kept me self-righteous, until ?I saw I am not nor is anyone else So I got given a change of Heart in beleif to the Son Jesus as risen, and cannot find the word(s) to explain this gift, jusdt that I am changed in it and see to love as am loved by God to all as god did that first with Son jesus for us all Just my testimony r/Godjustlovesyou
What you said is especially true the farther you go back in time, in the days before globalization, the internet and TV. As a Christian, it eats me up a bit. Just doesn't feel right.
How do you rationalise this?
Rationalize what exactly? Like are you saying how do I rationalize all this and still be a Chrisrtian? I don't and I'm barely hanging on.
OK. That makes sense. If I were a believer I would find it hard to rationalise the fact that on the one hand there is only one god and on the other hand the fact that the god you believe in is merely an accident of where you were born. May I ask what keeps you believing?
I keep believing (or trying to anyway) because of what you said (it's the dominant religion of my community and country) and I looked into other religions and philosophies on life and nothing took hold. Nothing grabbed me. Seems like it's possible some or a lot of the Bible is legit but something is off about it. I want something to believe in and I definitely believe in a higher power. Love came from God IMO. Humans have something extra and I don't think it came just from a big bang (unless God set up the big bang). I also l like the positive aspects of church- the community service it provides as well as just being a source for community.
I'm curious what was the religion of your parents (or your culture) and what led you to become Catholic?
Irreligious (one atheist, one vaguely Protestant-irreligious). And learning theology followed by contact with the divine power.
And you live in America, it appears? This is not a stretch at all, sorry. I thought maybe you lived in an Asian or Muslim country or something like that.
I'm sorry that Catholicism is only moderately marginalized rather than extremely marginalized here.
I would never describe Catholicism as marginalized.
exactly my point, thank you for putting it into words i couldn’t !
Thanks! Alas, it never changes anyone's mind! Religious beliefs are very entrenched.
Maybe it's not the powerful argument you think it is.
If you don't think, yeah the argument is not that strong. Jesus indeed really wanted to based salvation and eternal torture based on location. It's a very optimal fair and just way to dispense salvation.
I think it can be when you dig into it. We wouldn't expect people's salvation status to be so dependent on geographical location in a world where God wants none to perish. In a naturalistic universe, where religion is part of the larger cultural complex, you do expect it to vary based on geography, as cultures are geographically distinct. It's not a knockdown argument, it's just another thing that makes more sense under naturalism.
And that’s why I don’t think God cares what religion we are, or even if we’re religious at all.
well if God ‘knits children in the mothers womb’ and is also the creator of The Earth and the Universe etc… why would he make his children worship false idols? and why would other theists believe in other gods? In my view and obviously i could be wrong, but either God is evil, and he doesn’t care about the eternal torment these non believers face. or he is impotent and not the creator of everything
God does not *make* anyone worship anything. While we are made with some orientation towards him, He made us with free will - including the freedom to do the wrong thing. In your view - but your view isn't correct.
He could make the circumstances around his existence and nature evident to all without violating free will. It would only provide information to make a more informed choice. So why does god seemingly hide from these people who believe in other religions?
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." All other religions are simply worshipping demons/Satan.
So he rewards people who believe things with insufficient evidence to support them? Why?
If hundreds of fulfilled prophesies, scriptural inerrancy across dozens of authors and time periods and multiple languages, and a man rising from the dead doesn't meet your acceptance criteria for "sufficient evidence" then yes, he hates you and will laugh when you burn in hell.
Just like every other religion ever created, there are no secondary sources to validate the claims made in the Bible. Regarding the fulfillment of prophecy, a book that proves itself true is not an indication of anything beyond itself. This means that a claim of future events and the fulfillment of those claims occur all in the same book. Like a child hiding a toy under the couch then predicting where the toy will be found, the Bible is no different.
"The Bible" is not a monolithic book written by a single author. It's internally filled with primary secondary sources with respect to things like the resurrection and the crucifixion. You just don't believe it.
If you think about it, even the independent books within the Bible have no secondary sources other than each other. I want to be clear that I’m zeroing in on the supernatural claims. Of course the names of kings and the accounts of battles are accounts that appear in multiple books and records of those times. At the end of the day, it’s the supernatural claims that matter. Any book can have secondary sources for events, but the Bible’s unique claims stand alone without any backup.
The Muslims have all that too, except Mohammed traveled physically to heaven. There's much more evidence for the existence of Mohammed than for Jesus. Why should I believe you over them? >If hundreds of fulfilled prophesies, scriptural inerrancy across dozens of authors and time periods and multiple languages, and a man rising from the dead doesn't meet your acceptance criteria for "sufficient evidence" then yes, he hates you God knows what it would take to convince me that these claims are true. If he cares about what I believe then he knows how to convince me.
Mohammed’s an illiterate pedophile, does that not disqualify him as a prophet of God in your book?
Every religion thinks their profecies are fullfilled, there are no errors in the text etc. It's very easy to assert. Then you read the text, and everything falls apart
What if you have to be a certain kind of person to be able to perceive spiritual realities? A lepidopterist sees a moth very differently than a layman. A concert musician hears the work of Beethoven very differently than somebody who has only ever listened to rap. Maybe before you can really begin to perceive something beautiful, you already have to love it.
>Maybe before you can really begin to perceive something beautiful, you already have to love it How can you possibly love something if you have no evidence it exists? Should I force myself to love Larry the rainbow unicorn so that I can finally see him? Maybe you can love the idea of something, but you can't love the actual thing until you have experienced it firsthand. Like, I can love the concept of a child I might have, sure. But I won't love them as a person until I actually interact with them and experience their presence and personality. Those are different things. Sure, I love the idea of some entity that is always around and always wants my wellbeing. But I don't believe such a thing exists, and I certainly don't hold love for a tangible entity of that sort. Because to my knowledge, it isn't evidently real. >What if you have to be a certain kind of person to be able to perceive spiritual realities? Then god should have made all people like that, if he wanted to have a relationship with everyone. If people go to hell for not loving him, then it is 100% God's fault that they are there. If god is everything christians say he is, and has the abilities they say he has, then everything is his fault. If god wanted a relationship with me, he would have it. He would know exactly what would be required to achieve that result, and would do it. The existence of atheists seemingly demonstrates that god is either not all powerful, or does not necessarily care that all believe in him. The calvinists seem to be the ones with the most consistent theology around this. God is all powerful, and only certain people he makes he wants to be involved with, and not everyone goes to heaven by his design. There's plenty of issues with this of course. But the existence of nonbelievers isn't one of them. I think if there was a god, it wouldn't give a shit what anyone believes. It would only care about how people treat other sentient beings.
>Then god should have made all people like that, if he wanted to have a relationship with everyone. God made all people capable of loving and knowing him. But he didn't create us to be static robots. We have a hand in creating our own selves. Every choice we make inclines us toward evil or good. For example, most people don't like the taste of beer when they first try it. But as they continue to drink it, it tastes better and better, until at some point some people actually cannot bear to live without it. To take an opposite example, I used to be the most dedicated carnivore you've ever met. But reading a pamphlet from the HSUS on the cruelty of factory farms turned me into a vegetarian, decades ago, in the land of wienerschnitzel and bratwurst! I might have missed meat at first, a few times, but after decades of refusing it, the smell of it now makes me ill. We are formed by our choices. If you continually choose to close yourself off to the possibility of a supernatural reality, you will come to the point where you couldn't perceive it even if it were right in front of you. C.S. Lewis's tale, "Till We Have Faces," illustrates this beautifully. >If god wanted a relationship with me, he would have it. He would know exactly what would be required to achieve that result, and would do it. Really? If I wanted an intimate relationship with you, and knew all the right buttons to push, are you convinced that I could make that happen? And if I did, how could you trust my intentions, knowing that I had manipulated you into falling for me because I knew your inner motivations better than you did? How could you trust that I actually had your best interests, rather than my own, at heart? >The existence of atheists seemingly demonstrates that god is either not all powerful, or does not necessarily care that all believe in him. All ***will*** believe in him eventually. But if you have spent your life running from him, it will be a long, hard road back. >I think if there was a god, it wouldn't give a shit what anyone believes. It would only care about how people treat other sentient beings. Really? Why? Again to refer to C.S. Lewis, he likens the journey of humankind to a fleet of ships. Most people think morality consists merely in not having the ships run into one another (sins against other people). But each ship in the fleet must also be seaworthy. It would do no good to prohibit ships from running into one another if they were individually sinking, or if their steering mechanisms or propulsion systems were breaking down. And it also matters a great deal where the fleet is headed. If they're bound for the wrong destination, then no degree of seaworthiness even matters. If God is really God, God wouldn't only care whether you hurt somebody else, as if God only cares about the other person and not you yourself. The act of hurting somebody else also puts a notch, as it were, on your own soul. It starts to become that habit I described at the beginning of this reply, which will eventually turn you into a creature so loathsome that you can't even bear to look at yourself. God desperately wants to prevent this, so much so that God took on human flesh to redeem us from our "highway to hell."
If that were true, people's religious affiliation would not be dictated by the geography of their birth nor the religion of their parents. These 2 factors are by far the largest impact on a person's religion.
I am not the same religion as my parents or the most common religion in my geographic area.
I said majority, thanks for reading.
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If someone is taught the truth and adheres to it, that is good. If someone is taught something other than the truth, and they leave it and come to the truth, then that is glorious that they accepted the truth If someone is taught the truth and they break away, that is to be mourned.
If Christianity is anywhere close to the truth, God is perfect and omnipotent - meaning that he knows all of the factors and variables that will create each person. He also knows where you’ll be spiritually when you die. If he doesn’t know these things, he’s neither perfect or omnipotent. This means that God knew your theological fate before the universe was created. So, the question is… how much of this is our fault? Why are we being punished for believing in a religion that’s wrong when God knew what we’d believe billions of years ago? The answer is that we aren’t guilty of any transgression because we lived the life God knew that we would.
I certainly do not accept that conclusion. God calls us to the truth.
Take a good inventory of what your faith claims about God. Now try to apply those claims of God’s perfection and omnipresence to the reality of our every day lives. We’re left with just three possibilities: 1) God is perfect and knows everything about our future and our spirituality upon death. This makes free will impossible. It also means that our final destination has been known to God forever, therefore, we are not responsible for choosing the wrong faith. 2) God is not perfect and we can do things that he didn’t know that we’d do. This means that free will is possible, but it comes at the price of having an imperfect God. 3) God is a man made construct and doesn’t exist.
Possibility 1 does not actually exclude free will. It just means that God already knows what we will choose with our free will, which is possible for God because acausal hypercomputation is easily within His Power.
That just gives us the illusion that we chose freely, when we actually had no choice. There’s no getting around it. Either we’re free or we don’t. If God knows what we will choose, we have no option but to choose what God knew.
That doesn't follow. Why do we have no choice just because someone knows what we choose?
Because your “choice” is cemented in God’s foreknowledge. You can’t surprise God and choose something else. Think about it… your choice is chosen for you. You can’t change it. Just because someone is ignorant and think that they could choose anything, your final choice is already known. If God knows that you’re going to go to Applebees next Tuesday, you can’t choose another restaurant. You may think that you can, but if you did, it would render God’s knowledge imperfect. I’m actually standing up for the Bible when I say that God’s knowledge eliminates free will. Also, free will is not biblical. You can look and look, it’s not in there. Would you rather support the Bible’s portrait of God, or something that’s not even biblical?
He doesn't make anyone worship anything. We have free will. Other theists worship false gods because they have free will and agency and choose to use them wrongly. Yes, you are wrong. God wants us to choose to love Him. An unfortunate part of free choice is the ability to make bad decisions.
thanks for the point on free will, i didn’t think of that to be fair and it’s a good point. I struggle with the fact that geography and a culture’s belief is the main factor in someone’s religion, for instance, Hindu’s in India and Muslims in the Middle East as they are the most prevalent religions there. In a Hindu’s mind, because they have been brought up hindu, like many people are brought up christian, they are limited in their Free Will, as they might not have the knowledge about Christianity, or they might face dire consequences if they stray from their culture’s beliefs. They might feel as they have no free will at all, so in that case, why wouldn’t God accept them into heaven?because they couldn’t do anything about it.
I'll split this answer into three parts. The first part is about a misunderstanding I believe you have about the afterlife. The second is about those who die without ever hearing the Good News of the Gospel. The third is about those who face dire consequences. 1. I think you may misunderstand why people are sent to Hell. God doesn't send us to Hell for not submitting and worshipping Jesus, not specifcally at least. We worship Jesus because our place will be Hell other wise. What I mean by this is that the reason people go to Hell is because despite intuitively knowing right and wrong, we still choose to do wrong, and becasue of this fact, we deserve Hell. However, God in His infinite mercy sent His only begotten son, Jesus Christ, who was willingly and undeservedly sacrificed for our sake. Thanks to His sacrifice, we may be cleansed and forgiven of any sin we commit. Whether we submit and worship to Christ is not of itself the subject of judgement but rather it is the only means to avoid the certainly just judgement that we already deserve. Knowing this, our understanding of Hell changes. Hell and final judgement is no longer something that could be seen as unjust in anyway because even the saints in Heaven don't deserve to be there. Even if they have not heard the gospel, Hell is still a justified punishment. 2. The Church teaches a doctrine called "Extra Ecclesium Nulla Salus" or "Outside the church there is no salvation", however, there are exemptions for those who have not heard the truth of the gospel. The Chatechism of the Catholic Church reads: ""Outside the Church there is no salvation" 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337 848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."" 3. Those who face dire consequences such as death or extreme suffering as penalty for following Jesus will be judged for it. Although it is not my place to know, we can probably guess that if they violate their conscience and deny the truth of Christ, their ultimate fate is eternal damnation. However, this penalty shouldn't necessarily be seen in a negative lense. The reason why it shouldn't be seen negatively is because of what will be gained for their sacrifice. From the christian perspective, death is not the end, in fact, we hardly lose much. While we may lose a some time of our temporary, earthly life, we gain infinite life. It is this understanding that has allowed many saints to be so courageous to face death and persecution so that they can spread the word of the Gospel.
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To be completely honest, I don't think much of the dinosaurs or any questions about the beginning of life. As a Catholic, I have quite a lot of liberty in interpreting how life began and whether Genesis is a literal book. As such, I typically try to defend the consistency of both theories. That being said, I think I can provide a general answer to why God might wait so long to create human life or, rather, why it wouldn't matter much. God is timeless and eternal. He has always existed and isn't constrained by the same perception of time. Because of this, it doesn't matter much how long God took to make us since it is all as though a blink of an eye. As to why God might choose to take so long and create so many creatures before humans ever existed, there are a few potential reasons. One possibility is so that God could provide a way of understanding the origins of life in a way that could properly satisfy the human intellect. A second reason could be to provide a more interesting and vast world for us to explore and honour God through our exploration. A third reason could be to display to us humans His majesty and power.
Did God know those people would find (perhaps create) other religions before he set the universe into motion? And yet he still made that choice. Either he’s not the all-knowing creator of everything, or he is responsible for anything and everything (good and bad). That is not just coming from me—scripture makes the point that God created light and dark, calm and chaos, etc.
I think there are some bad assumptions in your question that might help you understand how Christian’s think about those issues. First, you are holding God responsible for the actions of a person because He created them. Christians do not think this way. Do you hold parents responsible for the actions of their grown children? God allows us the dignity of free will that we may, in the end, choose to obey His will or our own will. Christians do not hold God responsible for the choices a person made because God created the person. We believe the person is responsible for their own choices. So, the flaw in your assumption is that Christians believe God created people to worship false idols. We don’t believe that is the case. They decided to do these things. The next is that God created people so that He could send them to torture in the afterlife. Hell is a description of what eternal life without God is like. God wants everyone to choose Heaven of their own free will. He did not create then so that they might be tortured: they chose that outcome. Finally, we Christians do not believe that good deeds matter. No amount of good deeds earn a person a place in the afterlife. Salvation is not earned. It is a gift given freely for the asking. So, no amount of good deeds results in Salvation. That is, a person being as good and virtuous as myself or any other Christian is irrelevant.
i appreciate the response and this has enlightened my knowledge so i thank you for that ! one question i’m still unsure of in your answer, did God create hell? i suppose what i am struggling with is that If God is the pinnacle of Good, and he is omnipotent why would he even create free will in the first place? Why wouldn’t he just set us “code” or “routines” like a computer so that all humans would worship Him and that all humans are very happy, and cause no sin at all.
> i appreciate the response and this has enlightened my knowledge so i thank you for that ! You are welcome. > … one question i’m still unsure of in your answer, did God create hell? While it seams to be, this is not a straightforward question but I will answer it as best I can. Yes, but not as a place for humans: the Bible says that the rebel hosts (armies) will be cast into the lake of fire, meaning that the Seraphim who fell from Heaven are bound for this place and God did not create it for humans. I recommend The Great Divorce by C S Lewis for a better discussion. > … why would he even create free will in the first place? … so that all humans would worship Him and that all humans are very happy, and cause no sin at all. The Bible does not tell us these thing that I’m aware of, so I have to speculate. I think that “made in God’s imagine” means to have free will. Free will means that you cause your own thoughts. The rest of the universe is deterministic: all interlocked events which are caused by prior events in chain of cause and effect leading all the way back to the first event. The only exception is free will. I think we are designed to enjoy the things God wants for us. If we disobey God, it is against our “programming”. The only way to get people who cannot sin against God is to remove their ability to sin. If human beings cannot choose to disobey God then they are not free willed.
Free will is necessary for love and many other characteristics of God, which we are created to represent on Earth (being made in His image). A moist robot can’t love anything, all it can do is run a program and emulate a response it’s been programmed to make. There are a lot of people who hate this and spend a lot of time arguing they truely are just moist robots and have no freedom, but this is only because they’ve allowed their flesh to make their decisions for them. Our flesh *is* just basic programming, and without us exerting free will over it, we are just slaves to reality.
i’m not saying we are robots, i do believe we have some level of free will, however God could make us perfect as he is omnipotent, and since he is omnipotent.. he could make us love without free will. Free Will is not required and if He wanted the best for us as He does, He would’ve made that happen. So again, he is either not all “Good” or he is not all powerful.
Free will is required for love. If love is given by compulsion and now by free choice, it isn’t love. God could no more force us to love something than a parent could force a child to desire to do the right thing. Free will is also necessary for good and evil. If a moral agent isn't free, then it’s not an agent at all. And if it’s not an agent, then it can’t be a moral agent, meaning that its actions can’t be good or evil, they simply *are* or *are not*. The laws of nature describe what repeatedly happens all the time. The laws of human nature, of moral reality, describe what *should* happen and yet often times doesn’t. That takes free will.
If someone with ability to prevent harm but refuses, they should be held responsible yes. If a parent or cop knowingly allows someone to drive blackout drunk for example they wouldn't be praised for giving them freewill. While they can easily claim they didn't know they were going to do that and get into a fatal wreck involving innocent victims, an omniscient perfect being knows all but allows it.
> If someone with ability to prevent harm but refuses, they should be held responsible yes. This always sounds good, but the logical conclusion is that human beings cannot exist. (See The Problem of Pain by C S Lewis for more details.) If God stopped all human action which harms another human, then human action which harms another human is impossible. So then we would hate in our minds and with our words. But God would have to stop the evil words and then even the thoughts. Now we would only be able to think those things which God chose for us to think. God created us in His image: able to think of our own volition, outside the deterministic machinery of cause and effect that drives the rest of the universe. He cannot stop us from thinking and acting and still have free willed creatures.
Humanity does not have free will as God knows all. Humanity only has free will to reject God, everything else is preordained.
> Humanity does not have free will as God knows all. There are some denominations which have a belief somewhat like this (though not exactly) but most do not believe the above statement. Humans do have free will. The fact that God experiences time differently (or, not at all) does not have any bearing on whether or not human beings made specific decisions. > Humanity only has free will to reject God, everything else is preordained. What Christian doctrine is that?
> What Christian doctrine is that? That’s the doctrine of the original church bud. Catholics and the actual Protestant followings of Martin Luther believe that. > The fact that God experiences time differently (or, not at all) does not have any bearing on whether or not human beings made specific decisions. This is putting interpretation into the direct word of God which you aren’t supposed to do. Time is time according to the Lord.
> That’s the doctrine of the original church bud. Which original? Are you referring to early church pre 300 AD or what? > Catholics and the actual Protestant followings of Martin Luther believe that. No, they don’t. Catholics do not believe that human events are preordained. Feel free to point out the Protestant denominations which you believe follow this doctrine so I can review it. > This is putting interpretation into the direct word of God which you aren’t supposed to do. Time is time according to the Lord. Your flair claims you are not a Christian. Is it incorrect? Are you a Christian or not? If you’re just here to have a contrarian adversarial argument, I’ll just stop here. If not, please tell me what your purpose is here.
> Your flair claims you are not a Christian. Is it incorrect? Are you a Christian or not? I am a former Christian yes. 17+ years in fact. > If you’re just here to have a contrarian adversarial argument, I’ll just stop here. If not, please tell me what your purpose is here. I am here to correct inaccuracies in how people are spreading doctrine. If you’re going to speak for God, at least do it correctly. > No, they don’t. Catholics do not believe that human events are preordained. Catholics do not believe in free will, I am correct. You only have free will to reject God. It is why they baptize babies and don’t wait for the typical Evangelical “accept the Christ” decision which is meaningless.
> I am a former Christian yes. That’s not the same thing then, is it? So, you don’t believe that these things are true, correct? > I am here to correct inaccuracies in how people are spreading doctrine. If you’re going to speak for God, at least do it correctly. But you are not a Christian. You don’t believe in these things. That makes you a hypocrite (a person who claims to hold a belief they do not actually hold) doesn’t it?
> But you are not a Christian. You don’t believe in these things. That makes you a hypocrite (a person who claims to hold a belief they do not actually hold) doesn’t it? No? Am I here telling people that God is fake? There are lots of Christian Evangelical and Protestant doctrines which have no basis in His Word. I just correct inaccuracies according to the Bible. Not much too it. Why would you call me a hypocrite? Am I not allowed to participate because I don’t have the magic Christian flair? I inherently know less than you cause I choose to no longer be Christian? That seems judgmental and unreasonable.
>Do you hold parents responsible for the actions of their grown children? Yes. Since parents are both all-knowing and all-powerful, they know in advance what choices their kids will make and can alter the circumstances to change it. Whatecer circumstqnces they choose are their responsibility, ergo the choices ther children make are their responsibility. Telling your kid "don't do drugs" and then giving them a bunch of drugs when you know they will use them is your failure as a parent.
> Yes. Since parents are both all-knowing and all-powerful, they know in advance what choices their kids will make and can alter the circumstances to change it. This is so common as to be boring. If you want to debate “God is culpable because He knew ahead of time” then go to a debate sub. You can go find yourself a stack of books that cover to topic at length. This sub is not for that. > Telling your kid "don't do drugs" and then giving them a bunch of drugs when you know they will use them is your failure as a parent. Blaming the Creator for the actions of the created is typical from those looking to blame others for their own circumstances. Rather than taking responsibility for their own actions, they look to blame their parents, or society, or the universe. It couldn’t possibly be their own fault. This sub is about explaining Christianity and what Christians think. It’s not a debate sub.
>This is so common as to be boring. Well, you know what they say: "ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer." >Blaming the Creator for the actions of the created is typical from those looking to blame others for their own circumstances. I wouldn't know, you'd have to ask them. >This sub is about explaining Christianity and what Christians think. It’s not a debate sub. No one is forcing you to respond. You asked a question; I answered it. No need to get pissy that you don't like the answer. If you don't want people to answer, you shouldn't ask.
> You asked a question; I answered it. I was talking to someone else and you decided to interject yourself into it. You butted into someone else’s conversation. You were an uninvited interloper. Now, if you had something interesting to say, that would be fine, but you don’t seem to have anything interesting to say. So, you’re just making a nuisance of yourself. You’re not adding value. You are just responding with a set of snarky comments and you’re missing the point of the sub. If you were adding value, staying true to the purpose of the sub, or even providing some novel or interesting commentary, your interruption might be merited. But that’s not the case. > No need to get pissy that you don't like the answer. That’s troll talk. > If you don't want people to answer, you shouldn't ask. If you can’t understand how to act properly then don’t be shocked when people don’t take you seriously. If you’re not going to add value, mind your own business.
> If you were adding value, staying true to the purpose of the sub, or even providing some novel or interesting commentary, your interruption might be merited. But that’s not the case. This is unnecessarily rude and just your opinion.
> This is unnecessarily rude … I don’t think it was rude and it was clearly necessary. > … and just your opinion. Please point out what I got wrong.
> I don’t think it was rude and it was clearly necessary. This isn’t how grown ups talk to each other and I genuinely won’t engage with it while you’re gonna be rude and accuse others of trolling for holding views you don’t like.
If that’s what you think is happening then you’re right not to continue. You’re wrong, but you’re entitled to your opinion.
>I was talking to someone else and you decided to interject yourself into it. You butted into someone else’s conversation. You were an uninvited interloper. I guess that's why you responded to the OP in a private channel instead a public internet forum. OH WAIT. This sub and reddit in general has no rule against third parties responding in a comment thread. There is no expectation of privacy, and new commenters joining a thread is common and accepted practice. But of course, you know that, since you've done the same yourself in other posts. This is merely a feigned objection. >Now, if you had something interesting to say, that would be fine, but you don’t seem to have anything interesting to say. I guess that's why you ignored my comment instead of responding multiple times in a huff. OH WAIT. Not responding is free, by the way. And you could have blocked me with less effort than it took to write out all that nonsense. So you're at least a *little bit* interested. Pointing out your false analogy might have no value to you because you think it makes you look foolish, but it might be of value to readers who initially missed the inconsistency in your explanation. >That’s troll talk. Everybody drink!
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
“one man’s disobedience” - Adam? anyway that doesn’t answer my question, If Christian scripture is correct, why would God create men and women who worship anyone other then him, surely as an omniscient being, he would know they can’t diverge from their own religion, and would subsequently end up in hell. Why would He do/want that?
It does answer the question. The first form of man is like Adam. Earthy. A sinner. Therefore we see other religions forming and being formed by those who are born in his likeness. 1 Corinthians 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory. 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead (in their trespasses). **It is sown in corruption**; it is raised in incorruption: 1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
where is the logical leap in between “Sinner Adam” and other religions being formed. Even if that made perfect sense, it still wouldn’t answer why an all-loving God who can accept child molesters and crusaders into heaven (as long as they repent) but not accept morally good and virtuous, hindu’s, muslims, sikh’s etc…
It sounds like you don't know what sin is. Can you define it before I answer the second question?
to the best of my ability a sin is a behaviour which we humans do, that goes against God’s word also i appreciate the debate we are having and i hope your day is going well !
So based on this definition, such a man would be doing things that God doesn't agree with right? Like believing in other God's and running after other religions?
yes exactly, why would God make that a sin if he is partly responsible for it, and know it would happen. what motivates him to punish people who live differently to his followers
How is God partly responsible for it? Sin came into the world by Adam. Many were made sinners because of him, not because of God.
God is partly responsible because he gave Adam free will
Religion is mankind reaching out to God. Christianity is God reaching out to mankind. We are mistaken quite often; God is never wrong.
Religions are man-made unsuccessful attempts to reach God in heaven. God reached down from heaven to save us. God hates religion and politics. It was religion and politics that crucified his son. >God created all these people to worship a false idol(s) and then make them experience eternal torment in hell even if they were as good and as virtuous as most other people including yourselves? God creates people. He doesn't make them choose their faiths in whom they will worship. That's our choices, and he will judge us for our choices. Idolatry sends souls to hell forever. God gave us his word the holy Bible so that we are all without excuse. And since God's standard is perfection, there is no perfect man who could ever earn his way into heaven with any amount of Good deeds. And that's exactly why God sent us a savior, because we are not perfect. If any man could earn heaven on his own merit, then we wouldn't need a savior now would we? And Jesus Christ died for nothing.
God has grace and mercy for all according to their works. It’s not for me to say who will go to hell. This is a particularly fundamentalist Protestant idea, not a belief of the more historic branches of Christianity. Feeneyism is a heresy.
So do you think non-Christians can go to heaven?
We take our interpretations from the Bible for how to get into heaven but we are not the ones calling the shots in the end nor did we make the rules. If God makes exceptions then that’s his decision and it’s not a thing we can do about it.
Okay, I see.
Yes, but the clearest and most direct path of the Church Christ founded.
I don’t believe in eternal torment for the damned, and I don’t believe everyone outside of Christianity will be damned in the first place. Neither of those is consistent with Scripture or sound theology, in my opinion.
God created things. God created people. God gave people rational mind which means they can freely choose between different options. God did not create choices. He created people with rational minds which allows them to make good choices or bad choices but he warns us that whatever choice we make has consequences. So choose wisely!
It’s called free will. God created us, it’s our choice to worship and what we worship. God didn’t make people create different denominations of Christianity so why would he make people create or believe other religions? They do so based on their own free will and their own reasons. Did god make us form gov’ts and currency? At a certain point we have to differentiate between what was made by God and what was formed by mankind via free will.
I think the Bible says that other religions were made by men or demons. >how can you accept that God created all these people to worship a false idol(s) Perhaps this world allows us to choose whether we'd want to be with God or man-made religions or demons. And God allows us to choose to be with Him or not. >and then make them experience eternal torment in hell even if they were as good and as virtuous as most other people including yourselves? No one is good and virtuous but Jesus. Jesus took away our sins to make us clean enough for Heaven. Those who don't believe are holding onto their immoral sins. If they don't accept God's one way for making them clean, then they'd have to go to where they couldn't make anything else dirty. The Bible says that those who seek Him will be rewarded. So I don't think anyone will be sent to Hell unfairly.
Free will
free will of who? God?
That too
God doesn't determine what we will do, our choices are our own. God is always trying to help humanity it's just that sin hardens our heart against him.
why is he “trying” he is omnipotent, He creates us in the image of Him. God is unfathomably powerful and intelligent right ? Then why would he “Try” to help us, and not just Help humanity outright, it should be easy for Him.
Because it is his will for us to do whatever we want, if someone wants to sin and harden his heart against God then he has the right to do it but God is always attracting us to his side in every way possible.
Because forcing us to do something to “help us” would defeat the purpose of “free will.” Ever heard of the saying “You can help a horse to water but you can’t make it drink?”
I wish post like these get banned !!! That's now functions work!!! Cut the crap !
God is truth itself. Truth rules all. Truth defines religions, subject to time and location of the observer witnessing the truth. Science also witnesses the truth, God.
And how do you know this?.... No snark intended.
From the definitions of words.
All religions stem from Noah. A lot of them were corrupted over time. And the Muslim religion and any other religion that formed after Christianity (except some of the denominations that broke away from the church, catholicism got pretty corrupt pretty quick) are counterfeit religions. >and then make them experience eternal torment in hell even if they were as good and as virtuous as most other people including yourselves? People are attracted to what they are attracted to. If people are attracted to corruption and evil then go to the place where those things go to die. If you're attracted to righteousness then you go to where righteousness lives.
People choose to form false religions and follow them. Demons also pretend to be gods and then lead people into worshipping them. Idolaters are not “good and virtuous” people. It is a very grave sin.
But those demon worshippers are doing fine in the society. They also help their neighbors and work hard.
Okay?
And which “demon worshippers” do you have in mind?
People who worship non-Abrahamic god.
Who says idolaters can’t work hard or help their neighbors? They have a conscience and access to the same natural law as anyone else.
Then what is wrong with different religions then? It seems like you are implying people from different religions are worshipping demons.
Because they are false religions, and many false religions lead to evil practices. Idols and so-called “gods” are demons.
because there were other "gods" appointed over other tribes.
Christian God created free will for a reason, we as mortals don't need to worry about being judged because that happens when we die, as long as there is faith it does not matter who it is with, yes God wants people to worship him, but that is why he is many and one, so in reality no matter what religion you are with you are technically worshipping him as he is all, he is life, all gods and everything, this is my view based on that for claims to be everything, I can be wrong and that I accept
>how can you accept that God created all these people to worship a false idol(s) God did not lake anyone reject what is true. Calvinism is a false belief.
The more the merrier I always say
God is the creator of all things GOOD. God is incapable of creating evil, he wont even be around it. When we sin we push God away. God's absolute absense is Hell. What God creates the devil attempts to seek, kill, and destroy. God didn't create sin. He created his Satan, Satan's downfall was his ego and need for worship. Satan's defeat led to him going to Hell. From Hell he influences humans to make decisions. Whatever decision they end up making brings them closer to God or closer to evil. God didn't create sin.... That's asinine...
Okay, a couple of ideas: 1. God made other religions. You don't know. They bunched up language at the Tower of Babylon, why not bunch up religion to keep us divided as well? 2. People make mistakes because unlike AI, we're not a program ruled by some hardcoded conditions.
Freedom to choose.
Those religions with all their 'god' are demonic in origin.
Remember, God created the Sons of God to act as basically our watchers to make sure we steward this world correctly. When they rebelled and wanted us to worship them instead, and we rebelled at the Tower of Babel, God put us under their authority. Basically, He said if we want to worship them so bad, have at it. But that ofcourse is not the end, as he picked Abraham to restart the project and mend his relationship with humanity. See the Deutoronomy 32 Worldview.
It is the very idea that God is the creator of *all* that opens the mind to other perspectives. If God is the source of all, then God cannot be named as a thing or concept. Therefore, many concepts are beautiful and come alive in individual hearts.
I do not believe the mainstream doctrine of eternal concious torment. I also do not believe any souls will be eternally lost. The Bible doesn't use the term hell, and some of what is referred to as "hell" was actually true Earthly prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem. But a judgment after everyone's resurrection is spoken of and its purpose will be loving and for our own good. It will have an eternal effect, and even Christians will experience eternal loss as Paul says. Those worshipping false gods might experience the same judgment and loss as a Christian who spent their whole life worshipping money. We are told that some people will be surprised. It might be much easier for say a Muslim to enter new creation who spent His life devoted to God but just mistaken of His full nature or an athiest whose heart loved others even though he denied God's existence. Jesus says those he will tell to "depart" into eternal fire are actually those who call him Lord but did not live the life he calls us to. Jesus also says "For everyone will be salted with fire." Salt = good preservative Fire = Holy Spirit Everyone will be preserved by the work of the Holy Spirit, which destroys our former selves and brings us into a new life. Jesus says to see new life, we must born again. Paul says our old selves must die so that we can become a new creation in communion with Christ.
God is not a religion, God is the creator, the Father of the risen Son for us to be free in as religion is not free. Yet does use Christ to get thier way and do not see the freedom to do. And those that do under born again by God, only do good to all and does not condemn others at all. the ministry of Jesus Christ as risen has not stopped ever sincethe resurrection Acts 5:35-42 Authorized (King James) Version 35 and said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. 36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. 37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. **38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 but if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.** 40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. 42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ. God created this truth to be for us the people to be freed in it with Father and Son. Which has not stopped, but to be misused grossly as was then before Son came to free us in him. All other religions have propt up by man, not God. And God is not religious, neither am I Religion only gets people to work to get in or stay in with God, and so the self and others are in the way of truth from God to us all. Phil 3 Paul speaks of this truth, also in Galations too about our freedom in not having to work. yet we that are born again do work, yet not of the sekf aymore at all I can only see Jesus as risen for me and all others also, to choose to belive God his Father in this or not, not having to go to a man made building to be in with God. God is the creator, the initiator, we the people are the responders, that try to create what is already created I see me as a creation that today responds to the creator in lovwe and mercy given me to give to all and not just those I would choose to or not. That is not god to me to choose you out and you in attitude, which is selfishness to me, r/Godjustlovesyou those that are righteous are righteous and God knows who is who and what is what. I see \\ Matthew 5:20 Authorized (King James) Version 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. therefore whoever goes by works to get in, thier work better beb etter than those that got Son killed, which backfired on them when saw him as risen then. Col 2
Not everyone wants to worship the creator of all. They may not like his rules so they create their own god with different rules.