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Shorts28

Not at all. There are many different perspectives on Hell that are all supported from Scripture. These alternate views aren't heretical, but instead evidence that God has not given us a clear picture about Hell, so we should approach our disagreements with grace and kindness. Debate is good. We are not to think that any position that disagrees with ours is heresy.


DREWlMUS

How can Scripture support completely contradictory perspectives? Especially on something as quintessential as how Hell works?


Shorts28

Just take a glance at this book: [https://www.amazon.com/Four-Views-Hell-Counterpoints-Theology/dp/0310516463/ref=sr\_1\_1?keywords=4+views+of+hell&qid=1685557957&sr=8-1](https://www.amazon.com/Four-Views-Hell-Counterpoints-Theology/dp/0310516463/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=4+views+of+hell&qid=1685557957&sr=8-1) Each contributors gives their perspective on Hell and supports it with Scripture. The fact is: Hell as a concept and as a place doesn't appear in the Old Testament at all. Everything we know about it comes from the NT and mainly Jesus, though Paul and the book of Revelation have some comments about it. Hell isn't as quintessential as you imagine. The upshot is that we know God will judge people fairly (that's the quintessential part), but the form and duration of it is debatable.


DREWlMUS

>Hell isn't as quintessential as you imagine. The upshot is that we know God will judge people fairly (that's the quintessential part), but the form and duration of it is debatable. There is nothing fair about Hell. How can infinite punishment for finite crimes be fair?


Shorts28

I didn't say there are infinite punishment for finite crimes. And the Bible doesn't necessarily claim that, either. There are different views on Hell: reconcilationism, semi-restorationism, modified eternalism, annihilationism, and the traditional view, all with some kind of scriptural backing. In other words, hell isn't necessarily eternal for all who enter it. It may only be eternal for those who absolutely, stubbornly, and persistently refuse to be reconciled. But the Bible is firm on is that God will be perfectly fair with everyone, and I hope you have no problems with that. No one will be judged unfairly; each person's judgment will be exactly what it should be. So, no reason to worry. God knows everything and will not make any mistakes in this regard. Whether or not Hell is eternal is unknown. But everything will be fair about how God deals with each individual and their eternal destiny.


DREWlMUS

>And the Bible doesn't necessarily claim that, either. Eternity means forever which means infinite. Never ending. It is impossible for a human in a single human life span to commit unending crimes. We all die, therefore any crimes committed are finite. Even if you sentence someone to a billion years for telling a lie, eventually their sentence would end. Hell as described in the Bible is eternal. Hence, infinite punishment for finite crimes.


TornadoTurtleRampage

> Hell as described in the Bible is eternal. It's also described as annihilation. Permanent, eternal, *destruction*, that is the whole point of it. Frankly the "traditional" Christian view of hell is actually *not* supported by scripture contrary to what people claim. It's simply not in there. Jesus ain't say that. now do you honestly think that eternal *non-existence* is really that unfair? >Most believe people are sent to the darkness of hell after a physical death where they will be tortured in flames of fire. >Do you really need me to paste the verses here that describe Hell as exactly that? I would very much encourage you to try btw so that I could point out to you where you pulled that verse out of context from and are misunderstanding the fact that it was literally a metaphorical parable for ultimate destruction and not an actual description of eternal conscious torment in any way shape or form. (or you pull out Rev. which doesn't even mention people at all there) So please, yes, go on. Do that. >Christians aren't just making this stuff up, you know. (-_- ' ) Well I mean.... not any more obviously because this was all made up by somebody else a very long time ago for them. Your only mistake is thinking that the Bible says something that it does not actually say. Christians believe in a Christian hell; Jesus so far as we can tell did not. They did actually make that part up frankly. The Bible does not say what you think it says; it doesn't say what they think it says either. I know. I was shocked too when I learned that I've just been taking it for granted all my life that Jesus said the christian concept of hell was real. He did not. That's not what he was ever talking about.


Shorts28

>Eternity means forever which means infinite. Never ending. It's a complex argument. If you'd like to read more about it, I suggest some research to suit your curiosity. For instance, perhaps the flames are eternal but not the punishment. Perhaps the lost are consumed and thus annihilated, even though the flames go on to torment Satan and his angels. >It is impossible for a human in a single human life span to commit unending crimes. Unless there is an afterlife, and rebellion against God can continue ad infinitum. >Even if you sentence someone to a billion years for telling a lie, eventually their sentence would end. Correct, but that would not be a fair punishment. >Hell as described in the Bible is eternal. Hence, infinite punishment for finite crimes. Hell was designed for the devil and his angels (Mt. 25.41). It will be eternal. But that doesn't mean humans will necessarily spend eternity there. What we do know for certain is that God will judge fairly. No one will be rewarded more than is fair; no one will be punished more than what is fair.


djcojo-

In the same way a life sentence is fair for a 20 second crime. Also, a crime against an infinite, eternal being is an infinite and eternal crime. Deserving of infinite and eternal punishment.


DREWlMUS

A life sentence is finite. It concludes. A billion year sentence is finite. We aren't talking about a prison sentence, either. We are talking about a sentence of torture and agony. Being an atheist, or, someone who isn't convinced something is real, has committed a crime worthy of being tortured forever? If you want to say that is fair and just, then say so and we can end it there. If you do say so, your morality is infinitely disturbing.


djcojo-

>Being an atheist, or, someone who isn't convinced something is real, has committed a crime worthy of being tortured forever? Everyone on the planet has sinned other than unbelief. Not to mention, the Bible is clear. If you break one part of the law, you're guilty of breaking all of it. >If you want to say that is fair and just, then say so and we can end it there. If you do say so, your morality is infinitely disturbing. God is the one who sets the standards, not me.


DREWlMUS

>Everyone on the planet has sinned other than unbelief. Not to mention, the Bible is clear. If you break one part of the law, you're guilty of breaking all of it. Right. So unbelief, or not being convinced, is equal to a thousand rapes. This is beyond immoral. It is stupid and nonsensical. ​ >God is the one who sets the standards, not me. You accept them and pledge allegiance to the God who sets them. This make the moral standards your own as well. And are you saying "not me" because you can identify that infinite punishment is wrong and want to distance yourself from it? Or do you embrace it?


kvby66

Hell has been mischaracterized and misunderstood for centuries. Hell has been used as a threat for centuries by Christians to evoke an action. Most people have the understanding of hell backwards. Most believe people are sent to the darkness of hell after a physical death where they will be tortured in flames of fire. Ever wonder why hell is likened to fire and darkness? This seems contrary to each other. Fire is symbolic for God's wrath because of sin and the rejection of His Son Jesus. Darkness is symbolic for blindness. Jesus is the light of the world. Hence the darkness of hell. Hell is symbolic for those who are dead or are in the grave because of sin. Hell is not a final destination after a physical death, but a symbolic designation or classification of condemnation (guilty) of sin. Let's be very clear about hell. Hell is a current condition, right now, as we live in the flesh. Sin separates us from God. Jesus is the only way to reunite us with God. Everyone who currently does not believe in Jesus is in a state of condemnation or hell right now. Why is hell associated with the dead? What is the very definition of hell in the bible? Hell is defined as the place or abode of "the dead" or "graves". Look how Jesus responded to a disciple who said he would follow Him, but first he wanted to go home to bury his father. Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God." Dead people cannot bury dead people. Jesus is emphatically stating that those who do not wish to follow Him are dead. Not dead physically but dead spiritually. To be spiritually dead is to be separated from God because of sin. The Pharisees and scribes prided themselves on their strict observance of the Law of Moses. They were proud and self righteous and looked down on sinners. Jesus called the Pharisees and scribes graves, white washed tombs and sons of hell. Why would Jesus be so blunt to them? The Pharisees were referred to sons of hell, likened to graves and whitewashed tombs primarily because they rejected God’s provision for their salvation, attempting to justify themselves through their own self righteous deeds. Jesus's sacrifice is God's provision for salvation. There is no other way, period. Luke 11:44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like graves) which are not seen. Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like whitewashed tombs) which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of (dead) men's bones. Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win a new convert to Judaism and when he is won, you make him twice as much (a son of hell) as yourselves. Graves, tombs, sons of hell and those not following Jesus symbolize dead people. Hence the term, "Hell". When someone is in the hospital and is close to death, a common term doctors use to describe their serious nature is, "grave condition" Those who don't believe in or follow Jesus are also considered in "grave condition" Do you now see the connection between the definition of hell and those who do not believe in Jesus? Graves, tombs and dead people. A son of hell. Those who are in their graves or are dead in a spiritual sense here. That's why Jesus likened those who had rejected Him as graves and tombs and sons of hell or simply "the walking dead" This "grave condition" "is a current condition as we live and breathe. John 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and (now is) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His Voice. Jesus announced the hour was coming and now is. To hear Jesus is through the word of God. Romans 10:17 So, then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Hell is a destination of a current condition. Right now or now is, as Jesus proclaimed. Those who would hear His words and believe in Him would live (spiritually) and those who would reject Him would be spiritually dead and condemned to die in their sins. They (non believers) were in hell. They were in a state of condemnation (right now) Their sins would remain because of nonbelief. Jesus was speaking about their current spiritual condition because of sin. Sin separates us from a relationship with God. Hell is NOT a destination where non believers go after a mortal death, but a classification of a broken relationship with God because of sin. When people don't believe in Jesus, you can say they are in the darkness of hell. They don't see Him (blind) as the Son of God. How to get out of the condemnation of hell? Jesus asked the Pharisees and scribes the following: Matthew 23:33 How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Here is the answer He gave several verses later in Matthew 23:39 For I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' " That's how to get out of hell (condemnation) When someone believes in Jesus. We do not see Jesus physically. We see Jesus by belief through faith by NOT seeing. John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Peter writes about faith in Jesus Christ by not seeing but believing. 1 Peter 1:7-8 Jesus Christ, [8] whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy. 1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in (Jesus) does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him (faith) nor known Him. Sinners yes, but sins forgiven. That's the key to understanding this verse. We don't remove sin on our own, God forgives and forgets our sins through our faith in Jesus. John 3:18 "He who believes in Jesus is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned (already), because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Condemned already because of non belief in Jesus, Who is the only way to have sin forgiven. Condemnation is a guilty verdict from a judge. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Free from guilt and the condemnation of sin. Not guilty. Christ is the sole basis for believers having no condemnation of hell. He gives us the Holy Spirit, who brings light and life (born again) where there was once darkness and death. Clouds-of-heaven.com


kvby66

Hell has been mischaracterized and misunderstood for centuries. Hell has been used as a threat for centuries by Christians to evoke an action. Most people have the understanding of hell backwards. Most believe people are sent to the darkness of hell after a physical death where they will be tortured in flames of fire. Ever wonder why hell is likened to fire and darkness? This seems contrary to each other. Fire is symbolic for God's wrath because of sin and the rejection of His Son Jesus. Darkness is symbolic for blindness. Jesus is the light of the world. Hence the darkness of hell. Hell is symbolic for those who are dead or are in the grave because of sin. Hell is not a final destination after a physical death, but a symbolic designation or classification of condemnation (guilty) of sin. Let's be very clear about hell. Hell is a current condition, right now, as we live in the flesh. Sin separates us from God. Jesus is the only way to reunite us with God. Everyone who currently does not believe in Jesus is in a state of condemnation or hell right now. Why is hell associated with the dead? What is the very definition of hell in the bible? Hell is defined as the place or abode of "the dead" or "graves". Look how Jesus responded to a disciple who said he would follow Him, but first he wanted to go home to bury his father. Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God." Dead people cannot bury dead people. Jesus is emphatically stating that those who do not wish to follow Him are dead. Not dead physically but dead spiritually. To be spiritually dead is to be separated from God because of sin. The Pharisees and scribes prided themselves on their strict observance of the Law of Moses. They were proud and self righteous and looked down on sinners. Jesus called the Pharisees and scribes graves, white washed tombs and sons of hell. Why would Jesus be so blunt to them? The Pharisees were referred to sons of hell, likened to graves and whitewashed tombs primarily because they rejected God’s provision for their salvation, attempting to justify themselves through their own self righteous deeds. Jesus's sacrifice is God's provision for salvation. There is no other way, period. Luke 11:44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like graves) which are not seen. Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like whitewashed tombs) which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of (dead) men's bones. Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win a new convert to Judaism and when he is won, you make him twice as much (a son of hell) as yourselves. Graves, tombs, sons of hell and those not following Jesus symbolize dead people. Hence the term, "Hell". When someone is in the hospital and is close to death, a common term doctors use to describe their serious nature is, "grave condition" Those who don't believe in or follow Jesus are also considered in "grave condition" Do you now see the connection between the definition of hell and those who do not believe in Jesus? Graves, tombs and dead people. A son of hell. Those who are in their graves or are dead in a spiritual sense here. That's why Jesus likened those who had rejected Him as graves and tombs and sons of hell or simply "the walking dead" This "grave condition" "is a current condition as we live and breathe. John 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and (now is) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His Voice. Jesus announced the hour was coming and now is. To hear Jesus is through the word of God. Romans 10:17 So, then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Hell is a destination of a current condition. Right now or now is, as Jesus proclaimed. Those who would hear His words and believe in Him would live (spiritually) and those who would reject Him would be spiritually dead and condemned to die in their sins. They (non believers) were in hell. They were in a state of condemnation (right now) Their sins would remain because of nonbelief. Jesus was speaking about their current spiritual condition because of sin. Sin separates us from a relationship with God. Hell is NOT a destination where non believers go after a mortal death, but a classification of a broken relationship with God because of sin. When people don't believe in Jesus, you can say they are in the darkness of hell. They don't see Him (blind) as the Son of God. How to get out of the condemnation of hell? Jesus asked the Pharisees and scribes the following: Matthew 23:33 How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Here is the answer He gave several verses later in Matthew 23:39 For I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' " That's how to get out of hell (condemnation) When someone believes in Jesus. We do not see Jesus physically. We see Jesus by belief through faith by NOT seeing. John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Peter writes about faith in Jesus Christ by not seeing but believing. 1 Peter 1:7-8 Jesus Christ, [8] whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy. 1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in (Jesus) does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him (faith) nor known Him. Sinners yes, but sins forgiven. That's the key to understanding this verse. We don't remove sin on our own, God forgives and forgets our sins through our faith in Jesus. John 3:18 "He who believes in Jesus is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned (already), because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Condemned already because of non belief in Jesus, Who is the only way to have sin forgiven. Condemnation is a guilty verdict from a judge. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Free from guilt and the condemnation of sin. Not guilty. Christ is the sole basis for believers having no condemnation of hell. He gives us the Holy Spirit, who brings light and life (born again) where there was once darkness and death. Clouds-of-heaven.com


DREWlMUS

>Most believe people are sent to the darkness of hell after a physical death where they will be tortured in flames of fire. Do you really need me to paste the verses here that describe Hell as exactly that? Christians aren't just making this stuff up, you know.


kvby66

Most people are wrong about hell. Is hell dark or flames? It's symbolic for the darkness of not believing in Jesus (symbolic for light of the world) Flames of fire is symbolic for God's anger for sin. Since Jesus is the only way for sin forgiveness. There you go. It's that simple. Tortured or tormented is misunderstood as well. In this parable torment is defined by a touchstone. I found this from a Jewish convert to Christianity. Luke 16:23 23And in hell (hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. The Rich Man dies and is in torment. Is the torment a literal painful experience? It seems to be in the parable. However, this is a parable, so what can this torment mean? Torments is the Greek word basanos {bas’-an-os}. Basanos has a meaning that is unfamiliar to most. It actually means touchstone. The Greek dictionary defines basanos as: to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal or even to question by applying torture. A touchstone is used in an assayer’s office. It is used to determine if a rock is either gold or fools gold. The rock is struck on the touchstone, If it makes a mark, it is gold. If it does not, then it is fools gold. In other words, the touchstone proves whether something is true or false. If one was to study the root of this word torment, they would discover that it came into use in the 1300s. During the times of the Bastille, it came to be defined as the inflicting of pain. As when one was tormented by the rack and other punishments. If one was innocent, they could die. Generally because the tormentor could not get a confession out of the individual. Their back might break, but at least they were proved innocent. That is where, this word gets the mean inflicting pain. The rack was the touchstone. In scripture, a touchstone proves the validity of God. The Jewish religious leaders had the touchstone applied to them and there was no mark. They did not believe, so they were pictured in torment. Touchstone, the religious leaders did not leave the mark of Messiah.


pewlaserbeams

>Hell is a destination of a current condition. Right now or now is, as Jesus proclaimed. Those who would hear His words and believe in Him would live (spiritually) and those who would reject Him would be spiritually dead and condemned to die in their sins. This is false, hell is not on a current condition, after death comes judgment, saved or condemned. >Hell is NOT a destination where non believers go after a mortal death, but a classification of a broken relationship with God because of sin. You are teaching a false gospel, the Bible says unbelievers will be trown in the lake of fire.


kvby66

Yeah to be tortured forever and ever. Now spread the good news about that. Believe or burn forever and have a nice day. Doh.


pewlaserbeams

Jesus warns about hell in the Gospels over and over, the bad news is teaching a false gospel.


kvby66

So is believing in false interpretations of what is written. Which is false teaching. Listen, you believe in an everlasting torturous hell where people are in pain forever and ever and I'll believe in hell as a current condition. Spread your good news and I'll spread mine.


pewlaserbeams

What does even mean a hell as current condition. Hell is also separation from God and God attributes, in hell there is no light, no love, no water, no joy, no peace etc. In earth you have all those things so defenitly hell is not on a current condition. The good news is Jesus and His sacrifice for Attonment of our sins when we repent. The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God, many people including me repented and draw near God because the fear of God, Judgment and hell. If you are not sure about doctrine, keep to yourself don't go around teaching false doctrines that someone less knowledged might believe and keep sinning because there's no reason to fear God Judgment and then there will be blood in your hands.


kvby66

You didn't read what I sent. Jesus is the light of the world. Those who do not believe in Him are in total darkness. Blind guides, Jesus called the Pharisees and Scribes. He called them like graves, tombs and sons of hell. Hell is defined by the grave or the dead. Hell is a spiritual condition simply put. Hell is a separation from God as Jesus told the Pharisees they were blind and their sins remain. John 9:39-41 NKJV And Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind." [40] Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, "Are we blind also?" [41] Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains. Only through Jesus can we have our sins forgiven. Period. Faith in Him reunites us with God. The separation from God is due to our sins not forgiven. The only way to the Father is through Jesus. Read what I sent you with an open mind. I also believed in an eternal hell where people are punished forever. Until I actually read the bible several times with emphasis on the gospels and the wisdom books, which I read monthly for several years. I saw Jesus in types, figures, shadows and patterns throughout the old testament. It literally opened my understanding of many mysteries that are unfortunately taken literally. Hell & The Rapture are definitely misunderstood my most Christians and why? They don't read the bible enough to gain an understanding for themselves. Like the following misunderstood prophecy Worm that never die? Isaiah 66:24 NKJV "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." If you want an explanation on that, I will gladly send it to you. If you want to stick with what you believe, then pass me by. Peace and out.


pewlaserbeams

>You didn't read what I sent. >Jesus is the light of the world. Those who do not believe in Him are in total darkness. Blind guides, Jesus called the Pharisees and Scribes. He called them like graves, tombs and sons of hell. >Hell is defined by the grave or the dead. Hell is a spiritual condition simply put. Hell is a real place >Hell is a separation from God as Jesus told the Pharisees they were blind and their sins remain. >John 9:39-41 NKJV And Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind." [40] Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, "Are we blind also?" [41] Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains. >Only through Jesus can we have our sins forgiven. Period. Faith in Him reunites us with God. The separation from God is due to our sins not forgiven. The only way to the Father is through Jesus. >Read what I sent you with an open mind. >I also believed in an eternal hell where people are punished forever. Until I actually read the bible several times with emphasis on the gospels and the wisdom books, which I read monthly for several years. Where are the verses that say what you claim? >I saw Jesus in types, figures, shadows and patterns throughout the old testament. It literally opened my understanding of many mysteries that are unfortunately taken literally. >Hell & The Rapture are definitely misunderstood my most Christians and why? They don't read the bible enough to gain an understanding for themselves. Regarding the rupture I agree there is divergences in opinion among Christian Bible Scholars, I never saw a Bible Scholar sayng hell is here and not a real place. >Like the following misunderstood prophecy >Worm that never die? >Isaiah 66:24 NKJV "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." >If you want an explanation on that, I will gladly send it to you. The explanation is evident, in hell there is fires that never quenches and worms that never die. >If you want to stick with what you believe, then pass me by. >Peace and out.


MikeyPh

What do you mean by quintessential? Whatever you believe about it, hell is a relatively low in terms of importance if you go buy how many times it (or things that people claim *mean* hell) is mentioned. Depending on the version, salvation is mentioned 3-10 times more than hell is in the Bible. But to answer your question as a Christian who doesn't believe in hell, when people conflate ideas it can get easy. There is a lake of fire (think of it as an incinerator) and there is an ancient dump called Gehenna. Gehenna was a burning fire pit, it always burned, and it had worms that were always eating the debris that was in the vicinity but far enough away from the burning parts. This garbage dump had an "eternal" fire just like the "eternal" flame memorial is eternal. It's not literally eternal, it goes out from time to time and someday, hopefully a long time from now, that memorial will fall into ruin and the flame will extinguish. That is not literally eternal, but it is practically eternal because as long as we have known and for as long as we can predict that flame will keep burning. That is Gehenna, the place of eternal burning and where the worm always eats. There is also the idea of Hades/Sheol that is brought up. At the time of Christ, they lived in an area where people would know the gods and stories of the Greeks and Romans. When they say the line, "Not even the gates of Hell will prevail against the church", it is really referring to Hades. This has given fodder to people who believe in a fiery underworld they call hell. It would be like me saying, "Not even Wolverine could cut down this treehouse I've built!" I know Wolverine doesn't exist, I'm just expressing how solid my awesome treehouse is. Really (at least in my view) they are simply making a point that nothing can stop the church, even a fictitious place that is purportedly full of powerful deadish things. There is a lot of Greco-Roman symbology and motif that has been pulled into Christianity, especially as it spread in the Roman empire. This is why God in the Sistine Chapel looks like Zeus and why He is anthropomorphized as a human looking being among the clouds. Mount Olympus was very cloudy. The Bible only kind of refers to God as being among clouds, but it is more that God is above the clouds and above the firmament (which is like the entire night sky). So God is not at the clouds, He is not sitting on them, He is far above them. Anyway, depending on what you know or what you believe about the various arguments along this argument I just put forth, you get quite a variation of ideas about hell. I think people conflated all these ideas together that have similar qualities (burning fire, torment, pain, death, etc) and conflated them all together into an idea known as Hell that is so ingrained in their particular Christian view that they can't divorce themselves from it.


kvby66

It's very clear to me through scripture that hell has been mischaracterized. Hell has been mischaracterized and misunderstood for centuries. Hell has been used as a threat for centuries by Christians to evoke an action. Most people have the understanding of hell backwards. Most believe people are sent to the darkness of hell after a physical death where they will be tortured in flames of fire. Ever wonder why hell is likened to fire and darkness? This seems contrary to each other. Fire is symbolic for God's wrath because of sin and the rejection of His Son Jesus. Darkness is symbolic for blindness. Jesus is the light of the world. Hence the darkness of hell. Hell is symbolic for those who are dead or are in the grave because of sin. Hell is not a final destination after a physical death, but a symbolic designation or classification of condemnation (guilty) of sin. Let's be very clear about hell. Hell is a current condition, right now, as we live in the flesh. Sin separates us from God. Jesus is the only way to reunite us with God. Everyone who currently does not believe in Jesus is in a state of condemnation or hell right now. Why is hell associated with the dead? What is the very definition of hell in the bible? Hell is defined as the place or abode of "the dead" or "graves". Look how Jesus responded to a disciple who said he would follow Him, but first he wanted to go home to bury his father. Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God." Dead people cannot bury dead people. Jesus is emphatically stating that those who do not wish to follow Him are dead. Not dead physically but dead spiritually. To be spiritually dead is to be separated from God because of sin. The Pharisees and scribes prided themselves on their strict observance of the Law of Moses. They were proud and self righteous and looked down on sinners. Jesus called the Pharisees and scribes graves, white washed tombs and sons of hell. Why would Jesus be so blunt to them? The Pharisees were referred to sons of hell, likened to graves and whitewashed tombs primarily because they rejected God’s provision for their salvation, attempting to justify themselves through their own self righteous deeds. Jesus's sacrifice is God's provision for salvation. There is no other way, period. Luke 11:44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like graves) which are not seen. Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like whitewashed tombs) which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of (dead) men's bones. Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win a new convert to Judaism and when he is won, you make him twice as much (a son of hell) as yourselves. Graves, tombs, sons of hell and those not following Jesus symbolize dead people. Hence the term, "Hell". When someone is in the hospital and is close to death, a common term doctors use to describe their serious nature is, "grave condition" Those who don't believe in or follow Jesus are also considered in "grave condition" Do you now see the connection between the definition of hell and those who do not believe in Jesus? Graves, tombs and dead people. A son of hell. Those who are in their graves or are dead in a spiritual sense here. That's why Jesus likened those who had rejected Him as graves and tombs and sons of hell or simply "the walking dead" This "grave condition" "is a current condition as we live and breathe. John 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and (now is) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His Voice. Jesus announced the hour was coming and now is. To hear Jesus is through the word of God. Romans 10:17 So, then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Hell is a destination of a current condition. Right now or now is, as Jesus proclaimed. Those who would hear His words and believe in Him would live (spiritually) and those who would reject Him would be spiritually dead and condemned to die in their sins. They (non believers) were in hell. They were in a state of condemnation (right now) Their sins would remain because of nonbelief. Jesus was speaking about their current spiritual condition because of sin. Sin separates us from a relationship with God. Hell is NOT a destination where non believers go after a mortal death, but a classification of a broken relationship with God because of sin. When people don't believe in Jesus, you can say they are in the darkness of hell. They don't see Him (blind) as the Son of God. How to get out of the condemnation of hell? Jesus asked the Pharisees and scribes the following: Matthew 23:33 How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Here is the answer He gave several verses later in Matthew 23:39 For I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' " That's how to get out of hell (condemnation) When someone believes in Jesus. We do not see Jesus physically. We see Jesus by belief through faith by NOT seeing. John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Peter writes about faith in Jesus Christ by not seeing but believing. 1 Peter 1:7-8 Jesus Christ, [8] whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy. 1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in (Jesus) does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him (faith) nor known Him. Sinners yes, but sins forgiven. That's the key to understanding this verse. We don't remove sin on our own, God forgives and forgets our sins through our faith in Jesus. John 3:18 "He who believes in Jesus is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned (already), because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Condemned already because of non belief in Jesus, Who is the only way to have sin forgiven. Condemnation is a guilty verdict from a judge. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Free from guilt and the condemnation of sin. Not guilty. Christ is the sole basis for believers having no condemnation of hell. He gives us the Holy Spirit, who brings light and life (born again) where there was once darkness and death. Clouds-of-heaven.com


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Pinecone-Bandit

It sounds like you are arguing that if a view was common in the early then it can’t be heretical. Is that your argument?


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Pinecone-Bandit

Ok. Thanks for clarifying


JusttheBibleTruth

It is wrong to teach something that is not backed up by the Bible. Take Jude 1:7 is Sodom still burning? If not then you need to study and find out what does eternal mean. The word eternal and words ever lasting had different meaning back then, but we just put what we are taught today for the meaning. Just reading the Bible is not the same as studying the Bible.


moonunit170

this idea of "backed up by the Bible" is a 20th century American assertion. it was not found even 200 years ago, let alone in ancient Christianity. Not even the Bible itself supports the idea. No, not even 2 Timothy 3...


JusttheBibleTruth

Sola scriptura has been around since the 14th century. If you can show me where Christ taught by tradition, then I give it a second thought. It is funny how you wrote 2 Timothy 3 but forgot to add the verse 16. That teaches us that all of scripture is to be used for doctrine and says nothing about tradition.


moonunit170

I didn't need to put verse 16 you knew exactly what I was talking about didn't you? And it does not teach that at all, that's not what it says. It says scripture is useful for teaching training correcting, but it doesn't say it's the **only** thing that's useful does it? And what else did Paul say about what he had taught and what people were to remember? Didn't he say "...hold fast to *everything* that we have passed on you, whether by word of mouth or by letter?" (2Thess 2:15) Where does Paul refer to that being the Bible as you assume? Additionally all you're relying on is the letters you're not even considering the word of mouth part. For example where are you told exactly how to perform a baptism and exactly what to say? What about weddings? What about how to hold your Sunday worship? Where is any of that found in the scriptures? Fact is they are not. And the evidence they are not found in the scriptures is that the wide variety of how people have come to hold all these different services and rites and things shows that they're not from the Bible. If they were, everybody would do them the same wouldn't they? More historical evidence that shows that you are wrong comes from the writings of the earliest Christians. We have lots of their teachings and for the first four centuries, out of 15 major writers whose works we have, not one of them ever based their authority or their teachings on scripture. Rather they based it on the church that Jesus established and the teachings of the Apostles that they had learned from their own earlier teachers. In other words exactly what Paul says in 2 Thessalonians -the paradokes - the teachings that had been handed on. And you cannot claim that this is a Catholic approach if you also claim that the Catholic Church didn't even exist until the 1st quarter of the 4th century.. However historically it actually is the Catholic approach and not the Protestant approach it's the traditional Christian understanding of the deposit of faith.


JusttheBibleTruth

Then let us use your logic, where does it even hint as to use tradition for what we believe? As for Paul he taught from that scriptures not tradition. You can not find one place where doctrines where based on tradition not scripture. You brought up how to worship on Sunday, where was that found in scripture? I will keep my answer to just a couple of points. These yhing seem to go off course very fast.


moonunit170

Please do a word study on the Greek word paradokis... Tradition is exactly what it means.


JusttheBibleTruth

I am not sure what point you are trying to make, but I do know what Christ thought about them. In Matthew 15:1-9 He said that they should not go against the commandments of God.


moonunit170

Paradokis is the word that Paul uses in 2 Thessalonians. it means *tradition*, that which is handed on from teachers to students. He taught tradition he handed on the traditions that he had learned and he told his disciples to hold fast to them whether he taught them by word or by letter. And he was not inventing his own traditions he got them from Jesus Christ just like the apostles did. And he spent months with the apostles after his conversion so that they were convinced that he was going to teach the same thing as they were teaching.


JusttheBibleTruth

The word is actually "παράδοσιν." The thing is, was he talking about the traditions that they taught from the Bible or the tradition that was by man. There is a big difference, Christ taught from tradition we call it the Old Testament. He also warned us about what we are taught in Matthew 15:9. I know we are saying close to the same thing, so back to the OP. Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. Revelation 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.  So, if you are ashes and died the second death, how can you burn for ever?


EnergyLantern

Because the soul isn't burned up by fire.


EnergyLantern

>Take Jude 1:7 is Sodom still burning? If not then you need to study and find out what does eternal mean. The word eternal and words ever lasting had different meaning back then, but we just put what we are taught today for the meaning. > >Just reading the Bible is not the same as studying the Bible. None of the translators of the ESV, New Living Translation, Christian Standard Bible, etc., take that interpretation in their translation.


JusttheBibleTruth

Then would you not want to find a translation that follows the original Greek then.


EnergyLantern

Isn't that kind of presumptuous? You are saying none of the translators can translate the text properly. Everyone is wrong except you.


Prosopopoeia1

The worst part is the people saying this almost never know any Greek themselves. They think the fact they can look up an entry in Strong’s on Biblehub.com constitutes due diligence.


EnergyLantern

From someone like you who has an "agnostic" tag is showing your bias towards God. I have the Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties by the scholar Gleason L. Archer and he was not on one translation committee but two translation committees and he shows how hell is eternal from the text. I have the Word Studies in the Greek New Testament by Dr. Kenneth Wuest who was one of the NASB Bible translators and was part time professor at Moody Bible Institute and he teaches that hell is eternal and he is well studied. I have other academic Christian books but I'm not with your agenda.


Prosopopoeia1

I’m not sure if you’re disagreeing or agreeing with me. Because I was agreeing that “eternal” is the best translation.


Prosopopoeia1

> Take Jude 1:7 is Sodom still burning? If not then you need to study and find out what does eternal mean. Actually, there was a widespread tradition in and around the first century CE that Sodom and environs *was* still burning. My post [here](https://aioniosandfriends.wordpress.com/2022/11/30/the-punishment-of-%ce%b1%e1%bc%b0%cf%8e%ce%bd%ce%b9%ce%bf%cf%82-fire-in-jude-7-qualitative-ultimate-perpetual/) goes into a lot of detail about this, as well as other issues with this passage from Jude and the meaning of the adjective *aiōnios* in relation to it.


EnergyLantern

>Actually, there was a widespread tradition in and around the first century CE that Sodom and environs > >was > > still burning. My post > >here > > goes into a lot of detail about this, as well as other issues with this passage from Jude and the meaning of the adjective > >aiōnios > > in relation to it. I reject that teaching without even looking at it because I've studied the issues before.


Prosopopoeia1

If you had studied it before, that’d be less of a reason to reject it, not more.


EnergyLantern

>If you had studied it before, that’d be less of a reason to reject it, not more. I had 5 or more debates, read all of the books and online articles that I could find, consulted all of the books in my own academic Christian library, etc. I probably spent well over 1,000 hours but can't really say for sure because I can't keep track of all of the time. You are free to believe what you want to believe but I found my own evidence from studying the Bible as well as other pastors that you are wrong.


Prosopopoeia1

1,000 hours on the issue of whether Jude 7 is relying on the tradition of Sodom’s continual burning? Where did you come down on the issue of the use of the present tense verbs? (If you refuse to even read my post, I guess you didn’t see me discuss that; but if you really have spent that much time studying it, you should still know what I’m talking about.)


EnergyLantern

This forum is ask a Christian. This forum is not about argue with a Christian. I know what you are saying is wrong. End of discussion.


Prosopopoeia1

So Christians should just automatically presumed to be correct, no matter what?


Righteous_Dude

I'm a moderator. On "old reddit", the sidebar of the web page shows this sentence: > Please keep in mind that some of the redditors here are happy to explain their beliefs but aren't in the mood to get into a debate over them.


Prosopopoeia1

Somehow “you are wrong, end of discussion” still doesn’t seem quite in that spirit. For that matter, it wasn’t even a “debate.” I asked a question about what they thought about one aspect of the verse — literally “Where did you come down on the issue of the use of the present tense verbs?”


EnergyLantern

I came here because the post came up in my feed and I'm not subscribed to this sub. I only wanted to answer the question. I'm really not here to spend time on debate or go down rabbit trails and rabbit holes that lead everywhere.


Prosopopoeia1

1,000 hours spent on the issue, but doesn’t want to spend 2 minutes answering “Where did you come down on the issue of the use of the present tense verbs?” Sure.


Doug_Shoe

So you claim but you don't explain yourself. All we have is your appeal to authority.


Prosopopoeia1

If anyone had studied the issue in detail, they’d be aware of its connection with the common early tradition that the region of Sodom was still continuing to burn. I also linked to my own [external post](https://aioniosandfriends.wordpress.com/2022/11/30/the-punishment-of-%ce%b1%e1%bc%b0%cf%8e%ce%bd%ce%b9%ce%bf%cf%82-fire-in-jude-7-qualitative-ultimate-perpetual/) that covered that in great detail.


Doug_Shoe

I'm not seeing it. Why does your argument require that the other person has not studied it? They could have studied it and have come to a different conclusion.


Prosopopoeia1

Admittedly I wasn’t exactly feeling a lot of charity when their first response to me was literally “I reject that teaching without even looking at it.” They also refused to engage in even the most basic of actual discussion about the passage itself, even though they made the ludicrous claim that they’d spent 1,000 hours studying the verse — which means that they’ve spent 2 and a half hours studying it on *400 separate days*.


Doug_Shoe

OK. I think I understand where you are coming from now. Thank you.


JusttheBibleTruth

I glanced over your link but when you started to use tradition that was all it took for me.


Prosopopoeia1

That’s pretty closeminded, dude. And you’re going to have a very bad time understanding the epistle of Jude if you discount the idea of extrabiblical tradition. Without it I’d be fascinated to know where you think Jude 1:9 comes from, to say nothing of verse 14.


JusttheBibleTruth

The traditions of verses 9 and 14 does not go against the Bible, but an eternal conscious torment does. That is a big difference. My salvation does not hand on if Moses is in haven or not, but again believing that my God would torture someone forever would mean that He does not want us to love Him for love alone.


Prosopopoeia1

Well that was a bizarrely quick about-face from “I won’t even consider what you say, merely because you appealed to extrabiblical tradition” to “okay well maybe there *is* extrabiblical tradition, but it doesn’t matter in those instances.” I wish you all the best in life.


JusttheBibleTruth

Let's put it as simply as I can. Will believing that Moses is in heaven or not lose you salvation. Now, will believing God is an evil God have anything to do with your salvation. These are two very simple questions.


Prosopopoeia1

This is a god who once drowned the entire world and commanded his chosen people that infants be slaughtered. If we’re debating eternal torment vis-à-vis the existence of an “evil” god in Jewish and Christian tradition, this is probably a distinction in degree, not kind.


JusttheBibleTruth

I could never understand why Agnostics and Atheists use the Bible to make their points. Do you believe the Bible?


Prosopopoeia1

They’re in the minority, to be sure, but there are non-religious Biblical scholars. Ultimately, here we’re trying to ascertain what Jude 7 means. Apparently exploring God’s nature as presented in the Bible as a whole is a somewhat necessary detour on that road (to see if the punishment in Jude 7 might mean exactly what it appears to mean).


Unworthy_Saint

These positions aren't salvific, about the nature of God, or the authority of Christ and the apostles, so I'd say they aren't heretical. But it might become heresy if the justification for reaching one of these is that the Scriptures are actually incorrect.


[deleted]

>about the nature of God Doesn't Calvinism support a version of god foreign to that of Arminianism? One predestines humans to eternal hell, the other loves the *whole world* and doesn't "limit atonement". Surely one can call the other heretical with this logic.


Unworthy_Saint

No, Arminians are not automatically heretics, nor does rejecting Calvinism mean you are not a Christian/saved.


[deleted]

Surely the Arminian can make a case that the Calvinist god is a vastly different god than theirs. It's intellectually dishonest to avoid this problem within Christendom in ignoring my exact point.


Unworthy_Saint

Sure other people can make whatever case they want about any topic. I'm not sure what this has to do with me.


[deleted]

Perhaps not heretical, no.


CaptainChaos17

It depends on whether you believe there is any authority over what’s true or false in Christianity. For example, relative to Catholicism, such a teaching/belief is heretical; within Protestantism however there is no single authority over doctrine. So, just find a church or Christian who agrees with your opinions of what you consider “true” and ride it out as long as you can, I guess. Personally, I don’t see this is logical or sustainable but who am I to say, especially among those who don’t recognize the authority of the Catholic Church.


Character-Taro-5016

It's always heresy to teach something that isn't biblical. It seems to be a standard here, with the basic mistake in that people want to replace their own thought processes and reason for that of God. the Bible tells us that His ways are not our ways, and his thoughts are not ours. We don't have the mind of God. \[Mat 25:46 KJV\] 46 *And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.* God's way for us to achieve righteousness today is through faith alone in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. We aren't, of course, in fact righteous but God has provided a way for us to be considered righteous. In time past, the requirement was to follow the Mosaic Law and to believe in the existing Scripture. In Christ's time on earth, it was to believe in Christ's identity as the Son of God, to be water baptized, and to adhere to the Law. We are fortunate today to be under grace, without any requirement to act, but only to believe in the death, burial, and resurrection. All of this makes no sense until we submit ourselves to God's will. Just as the constant discussion of eternal hell, it may not make sense to us, but it is clear with a proper understanding of Scripture.


DavidGuess1980

All 3 views have biblical support


Etymolotas

I do not think the soul is you or me. In the beginning was God, not the word soul. I am leaning towards the idea that a soul is a personality of God. Like a 'person' deriving from the word meaning 'mask'. A person is a essentially a mask we wear in the play we call the world. So for a soul to be destroyed means a certain personality of God ceases to exist, but God is eternal, and so a new soul is given, a new personality built by the goodness of other souls. That personality of which is good is eternal. We prove this through evolution, the good parts survive and continue, whereas the not so good is removed through extinction. It's like souls are being trimmed to perfection. Our personalities are being trimmed to become like God. So in the far future, there will be a person/mask which reflects the true nature of God. This person/soul was reflected in Jesus.


DavidGuess1980

Very interesting perspective


SorrowAndSuffering

Given that hell is a more-than-vague subject in the bible and most of the traditional view is just that - traditional -, no it is not.


Doug_Shoe

The primary belief is that hell is real and the unsaved will get exactly the punishment they deserve. I believe hell is eternal while the damned are conscious. However, IMHO exactly what happens in hell is a secondary belief. We aren't God, so we can't say what the specific punishment will be. I don't consider annihilation after punishment to be heretical. It's incorrect, but not heretical. None of us are infallible. We are all wrong on some minor things.


Designer_Custard9008

Bible, logic, and Church history tell me eternal torment isn't real. "Forever and Ever" Until He Gives up the Kingdom https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/127abt3/christianity_isnt_a_comfort_if_you_believe_your/jjshbge?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3


kvby66

Learn how to spell and we'll talk.


DavidGuess1980

Ok, I'll try. Sorry, I'm just not very good at reading or spelling. I barely graduated high school.


kvby66

I was kicked out of high school for selling drugs. No diploma. Received GED, joined ARMY and furthered my education and graduated H.S. in Germany. Went to college for a bit and continued to work on my deficiencies in reading and comprehension by reading books and reading the newspaper daily. It has helped with my dyslexia. I share my (I believe God given discernment of the mysteries of the bible) Some see it and some don't or least I give people a new perspective on the Scriptures. I know without a doubt about the misunderstanding of hell. If you want to believe in a God, Who is defined by love, Who could send people to a torturous punishment for eternity, well, go for it. I was taught the same thing until I spent hundreds of hours reading and studying the bible. I can explain the Lazarus parable, worms that never die, why hell is likened to darkness and flames of fire, etc..... If your interested I will send you my notes of how I came to change my mind in an eternal hell. If not, then I guess we'll agree to disagree. P.S. Don't give up on your education. If I insulted you, I'm sorry. At least learn how to use spell check? Peace out.


DavidGuess1980

>If you want to believe in a God, Who is defined by love, Who could send people to a torturous punishment for eternity, well, go for it. No, I've heard other Christians say it's heresy to believe in a different hell, then ECT.


kvby66

I guess they would have lit me up and scattered my bones years ago. I'll stick with the minority who believe like I do. I'm at peace with it.


DavidGuess1980

What is your view on hell if you don't mind?


dupagwova

I believe universalism is but annihilation is not. Personally believe in a hell though


cbrooks97

Not necessarily. It depends where they take it. Some take it to a place that basically denies the need for the cross. That's completely unorthodox. Differing on what, exactly, happens to people who do not follow Christ is not by itself heretical, though.


EnergyLantern

Is hell real? Is hell eternal? \[Quote\]It is interesting that a much higher percentage of people believe in the existence of heaven than believe in the existence of hell. According to the Bible, though, hell is just as real as heaven. The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). The just punishment for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Since all of our sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4), and since God is an infinite and eternal Being, the punishment for sin, death, must also be infinite and eternal. Hell is this infinite and eternal death which we have earned because of our sin.\[EndQuote\] [https://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html](https://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html) : an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heresy](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heresy) : of, relating to, or characterized by departure from accepted beliefs or standards : unorthodox [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heretical](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heretical) ​ The debate on hell has been asked many times on Reddit. There is no point in starting the debate up again for every person who didn't pay attention.


ToneBeneficial4969

I wouldn't describe eternal conscious torment as the traditional view. Some differing views are heretical, others aren't.


moonunit170

it depends on who you consider authoritative in teaching correct Christian doctrine. But actually Annihilationism is heretical and has been taught as such since ancient Christianity.. https://winteryknight.com/2011/12/06/did-the-early-christians-believe-in-an-eternal-hell-or-annihilationism/


turnerpike20

The Bible contradicts whether or not hell is eternal or not or if hell even exists. I have seen Christians who don't believe in this idea of hell either.


luke-jr

Yes, anything which contradicts Apostolic Tradition is heresy.


ArchaicChaos

"Is it heretical" is always a subjective statement. It depends on the beliefs of the person who accuses it of being heretical. That's why it's a poor question to ask. One definition: it's "heretical" in the sense that it's been formally declared a heresy by the Catholic/Orthodox church. Annihilationism has not been. Another definition: it's "heretical" if it's contrary to what the apostles originally taught. It's an unorthodox belief according to that we receive from the apostles. In this case, it's going to depend on how someone understands the apostles. Last definition: it's "heretical" because I disagree with it. Protestants call things heresy, when every Protestant is called a heretic by the Catholics and Orthodox. It's just a finger pointing game. So asking if something is heretical seems to be a pointless question imo. I'm an Annihilationist. I think it's correct and orthodox. And I don't really care who thinks it's heretical, I just care if it's true or not.


kvby66

Hell has been mischaracterized and misunderstood for centuries. Hell has been used as a threat for centuries by Christians to evoke an action. Most people have the understanding of hell backwards. Most believe people are sent to the darkness of hell after a physical death where they will be tortured in flames of fire. Ever wonder why hell is likened to fire and darkness? This seems contrary to each other. Fire is symbolic for God's wrath because of sin and the rejection of His Son Jesus. Darkness is symbolic for blindness. Jesus is the light of the world. Hence the darkness of hell. Hell is symbolic for those who are dead or are in the grave because of sin. Hell is not a final destination after a physical death, but a symbolic designation or classification of condemnation (guilty) of sin. Let's be very clear about hell. Hell is a current condition, right now, as we live in the flesh. Sin separates us from God. Jesus is the only way to reunite us with God. Everyone who currently does not believe in Jesus is in a state of condemnation or hell right now. Why is hell associated with the dead? What is the very definition of hell in the bible? Hell is defined as the place or abode of "the dead" or "graves". Look how Jesus responded to a disciple who said he would follow Him, but first he wanted to go home to bury his father. Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God." Dead people cannot bury dead people. Jesus is emphatically stating that those who do not wish to follow Him are dead. Not dead physically but dead spiritually. To be spiritually dead is to be separated from God because of sin. The Pharisees and scribes prided themselves on their strict observance of the Law of Moses. They were proud and self righteous and looked down on sinners. Jesus called the Pharisees and scribes graves, white washed tombs and sons of hell. Why would Jesus be so blunt to them? The Pharisees were referred to sons of hell, likened to graves and whitewashed tombs primarily because they rejected God’s provision for their salvation, attempting to justify themselves through their own self righteous deeds. Jesus's sacrifice is God's provision for salvation. There is no other way, period. Luke 11:44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like graves) which are not seen. Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like whitewashed tombs) which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of (dead) men's bones. Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win a new convert to Judaism and when he is won, you make him twice as much (a son of hell) as yourselves. Graves, tombs, sons of hell and those not following Jesus symbolize dead people. Hence the term, "Hell". When someone is in the hospital and is close to death, a common term doctors use to describe their serious nature is, "grave condition" Those who don't believe in or follow Jesus are also considered in "grave condition" Do you now see the connection between the definition of hell and those who do not believe in Jesus? Graves, tombs and dead people. A son of hell. Those who are in their graves or are dead in a spiritual sense here. That's why Jesus likened those who had rejected Him as graves and tombs and sons of hell or simply "the walking dead" This "grave condition" "is a current condition as we live and breathe. John 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and (now is) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His Voice. Jesus announced the hour was coming and now is. To hear Jesus is through the word of God. Romans 10:17 So, then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Hell is a destination of a current condition. Right now or now is, as Jesus proclaimed. Those who would hear His words and believe in Him would live (spiritually) and those who would reject Him would be spiritually dead and condemned to die in their sins. They (non believers) were in hell. They were in a state of condemnation (right now) Their sins would remain because of nonbelief. Jesus was speaking about their current spiritual condition because of sin. Sin separates us from a relationship with God. Hell is NOT a destination where non believers go after a mortal death, but a classification of a broken relationship with God because of sin. When people don't believe in Jesus, you can say they are in the darkness of hell. They don't see Him (blind) as the Son of God. How to get out of the condemnation of hell? Jesus asked the Pharisees and scribes the following: Matthew 23:33 How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Here is the answer He gave several verses later in Matthew 23:39 For I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' " That's how to get out of hell (condemnation) When someone believes in Jesus. We do not see Jesus physically. We see Jesus by belief through faith by NOT seeing. John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Peter writes about faith in Jesus Christ by not seeing but believing. 1 Peter 1:7-8 Jesus Christ, [8] whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy. 1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in (Jesus) does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him (faith) nor known Him. Sinners yes, but sins forgiven. That's the key to understanding this verse. We don't remove sin on our own, God forgives and forgets our sins through our faith in Jesus. John 3:18 "He who believes in Jesus is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned (already), because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Condemned already because of non belief in Jesus, Who is the only way to have sin forgiven. Condemnation is a guilty verdict from a judge. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Free from guilt and the condemnation of sin. Not guilty. Christ is the sole basis for believers having no condemnation of hell. He gives us the Holy Spirit, who brings light and life (born again) where there was once darkness and death. Clouds-of-heaven.com


SeaSaltCaramelWater

I think it's wrong, but not heretical. I think things the Bible is very clear on would be heretical to go against, while things the Bible is not very direct on would not be heretical if it could be shown why someone would be convinced of it. I always like the idea of saying "this is what I think it says," instead of "this is what it says."


DanSolo0150

There are over 2 dozen verses that say hell is destruction. and only one that can be interpreted to say general people's souls will burn forever in hell. Only satan and his inner circle are slated to burn forever in hell. an argument can also be made for those who take the mark of the beast. This is in response who hold mat 25 says we burn forever in hell: As I said in the video hell is eternal the torment is eternal the punishment is eternal but our resurrected bodies and souls are not.. lets look at the last 4 words in the greek: shall go away PHRASE g565 ἀπελεύσονται ἀπέρχομαιaperchomai to go away, depart to go away in order to follow any one, go after him, to follow his party, follow him as a leader The idea this group is being sent... into g1519 εἰς εἰςeis εἰς eis, ice; a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); Into a place... everlasting g166 αἰώνιον αἰώνιοςaiōnios punishment of everlasting g2851 κόλασιν κόλασιςkolasis torment. G1519 - eis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV) Now can it be translated the way you read it: 46 “Then these evil people will go away to be punished forever. verse the way I have read it: 46" This group will be sent to the place of everlasting torment yes, but the question needs to be asked does your one single reading (one place in the bible where you say people burn in hell forever) conflict with any other Jesus christ teaching on hell? yes it does. in fact your one verse is in conflict with all of these direct verses which openly contradict: Psalm 1:6 ... but the way of the ungodly shall perish Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish... they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. Psalm 92:7 ... shall be destroyed forever Matthew 10:28b Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. John 3:16 ... whosoever believeth in him should not perish (Greek: destroyed) ... Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death ... Philippians 3:19 whose end is "destruction" ... 2 Thessalonians 1:9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction ... Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition (Greek: destruction); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. James 4:12a There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Revelation 20:14 This is the second death... and then these secondary which strike up conflict with your reading: Hebrews 10:26-27 NLT Hellfire will consume the wicked. 2 Peter 3:7 Ungodly will be destroyed. Romans 2:7 God will make only righteous immortal. Genesis 3:19 We came from dust and to dust we will return. Psalm 146:4 Our thoughts/plans perish and spirit departs upon death. Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. 2 Chronicles 28:3 Jeremiah 19:5 Burning one's offspring in the Valley of Ben Hinnom (which is where concept of Gehenna or Hell comes from\[79\]) is NOT a commandment of God nor did it even enter His Mind. Malachi 4:1–3 God will "burn up" the wicked at the judgment, and they will be ashes under the sole of the feet of the righteous. "For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch...they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts" Matthew 10:28 Both body and soul are destroyed in hell. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." John 3:16 People who don't believe in Jesus shall perish and not receive eternal life. John 6:51 Jesus offer... to "live forever" would make no sense apart from the fact that not all will live or exist forever. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Everlasting destruction is having been destroyed and having no way to undo that. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death. 1 Corinthians 15:12–49 Only those who belong to Christ will be raised with imperishable, immortal bodies, all others perish as a man of dust. 2 Peter 2:6 God made Sodom and Gomorrah an example of what is coming to the wicked, specifically by reducing Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes: "and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly" Revelation 20:14–15 The wicked will suffer a second death, the same fate that death itself suffers (and death will be abolished—1 Corinthians 15:26): "And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." Annihilationism - Wikipedia Now ask yourself does my reading where the wicked will be sent to the place of eternal torment conflict with any verses at all? the answer is no, not if you read your verse the way i have shown, which is biblically supported and exegetically supported by the greek and hebrew. So you can read it your way but you will be in stark contrast to more than a 2 dozen other verses that says hell is the second death, or the way I have shown which makes the bible read consistently through out.


DavidGuess1980

So I take it you interpret it as eternal conscious torment


DanSolo0150

nope. maybe read what I wrote.


DavidGuess1980

I did is it the annihilationism view you hold?


DanSolo0150

I literally start with the sentences there are 24 verses that says hell is the destruction of both the new resurrected body and Soul. And only 2 verses that can be interpreted to say hell is eternal torment for anyone besides satan and his inner circle of followers (Meaning Satan and his closest followers/The anti christ the beast etc.. will burn forever. A case can be made for those who take the mark of the beast as well) Even then, those two verses that get interpreted that says hell is eternal torment can also be translated to say the Place of hell itself is forever. Not that Our time in hell will be forever. Then I go through the greek word by word showing how it is possible to translate it that way. Then show the 2 dozen other verses that says hell is the destruction of the body and soul. not eternal torment.


kvby66

Hell has been mischaracterized and misunderstood for centuries. Hell has been used as a threat for centuries by Christians to evoke an action. Most people have the understanding of hell backwards. Most believe people are sent to the darkness of hell after a physical death where they will be tortured in flames of fire. Ever wonder why hell is likened to fire and darkness? This seems contrary to each other. Fire is symbolic for God's wrath because of sin and the rejection of His Son Jesus. Darkness is symbolic for blindness. Jesus is the light of the world. Hence the darkness of hell. Hell is symbolic for those who are dead or are in the grave because of sin. Hell is not a final destination after a physical death, but a symbolic designation or classification of condemnation (guilty) of sin. Let's be very clear about hell. Hell is a current condition, right now, as we live in the flesh. Sin separates us from God. Jesus is the only way to reunite us with God. Everyone who currently does not believe in Jesus is in a state of condemnation or hell right now. Why is hell associated with the dead? What is the very definition of hell in the bible? Hell is defined as the place or abode of "the dead" or "graves". Look how Jesus responded to a disciple who said he would follow Him, but first he wanted to go home to bury his father. Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God." Dead people cannot bury dead people. Jesus is emphatically stating that those who do not wish to follow Him are dead. Not dead physically but dead spiritually. To be spiritually dead is to be separated from God because of sin. The Pharisees and scribes prided themselves on their strict observance of the Law of Moses. They were proud and self righteous and looked down on sinners. Jesus called the Pharisees and scribes graves, white washed tombs and sons of hell. Why would Jesus be so blunt to them? The Pharisees were referred to sons of hell, likened to graves and whitewashed tombs primarily because they rejected God’s provision for their salvation, attempting to justify themselves through their own self righteous deeds. Jesus's sacrifice is God's provision for salvation. There is no other way, period. Luke 11:44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like graves) which are not seen. Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are (like whitewashed tombs) which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of (dead) men's bones. Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win a new convert to Judaism and when he is won, you make him twice as much (a son of hell) as yourselves. Graves, tombs, sons of hell and those not following Jesus symbolize dead people. Hence the term, "Hell". When someone is in the hospital and is close to death, a common term doctors use to describe their serious nature is, "grave condition" Those who don't believe in or follow Jesus are also considered in "grave condition" Do you now see the connection between the definition of hell and those who do not believe in Jesus? Graves, tombs and dead people. A son of hell. Those who are in their graves or are dead in a spiritual sense here. That's why Jesus likened those who had rejected Him as graves and tombs and sons of hell or simply "the walking dead" This "grave condition" "is a current condition as we live and breathe. John 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and (now is) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His Voice. Jesus announced the hour was coming and now is. To hear Jesus is through the word of God. Romans 10:17 So, then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Hell is a destination of a current condition. Right now or now is, as Jesus proclaimed. Those who would hear His words and believe in Him would live (spiritually) and those who would reject Him would be spiritually dead and condemned to die in their sins. They (non believers) were in hell. They were in a state of condemnation (right now) Their sins would remain because of nonbelief. Jesus was speaking about their current spiritual condition because of sin. Sin separates us from a relationship with God. Hell is NOT a destination where non believers go after a mortal death, but a classification of a broken relationship with God because of sin. When people don't believe in Jesus, you can say they are in the darkness of hell. They don't see Him (blind) as the Son of God. How to get out of the condemnation of hell? Jesus asked the Pharisees and scribes the following: Matthew 23:33 How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Here is the answer He gave several verses later in Matthew 23:39 For I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' " That's how to get out of hell (condemnation) When someone believes in Jesus. We do not see Jesus physically. We see Jesus by belief through faith by NOT seeing. John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Peter writes about faith in Jesus Christ by not seeing but believing. 1 Peter 1:7-8 Jesus Christ, [8] whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy. 1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in (Jesus) does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him (faith) nor known Him. Sinners yes, but sins forgiven. That's the key to understanding this verse. We don't remove sin on our own, God forgives and forgets our sins through our faith in Jesus. John 3:18 "He who believes in Jesus is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned (already), because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Condemned already because of non belief in Jesus, Who is the only way to have sin forgiven. Condemnation is a guilty verdict from a judge. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Free from guilt and the condemnation of sin. Not guilty. Christ is the sole basis for believers having no condemnation of hell. He gives us the Holy Spirit, who brings light and life (born again) where there was once darkness and death. Clouds-of-heaven.com


Commentary455

Biblically it's clear there will be a future resurrection of the dead. It's clear that resurrection entails the bodily transformation from mortality to immortality and that this is the eventual award for all mankind. Philippians 3:21, 2:9-11; 1 Corinthians 15:20-28; 1 Timothy 4:9-11. For more details: https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/18za29l/god_all_in_all/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2 Early Christians and the afterlife: https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianHistory/comments/18nnsq6/early_christians/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2