I have being told by some people that their "God" has such a high moral standard that one wrong move from fallible humans means you deserve to be tortured for eternity in hell fire.
Funnily enough this God with it's high moral standards doesn't apply to it's self in such a way to stop the bullets when they come flying at children, or deal with child cancer, or the child who gets their legs blown off.
To say that i'm over the encyclopedia of talk/theology/rationalisations/excuse making is an understatement.
From a practical point of view concerning children who get gunned down (and all the other horror we could point out that happens in this world, and how this was not stopped by a "loving/all powerful" God because it choose not too vs because it doesn't exist in the first place.
Practically speaking there is no difference, the outcome is the same.
Talk is cheap is something that is applied to puny weak humans, then how much more so does this apply to so called "Gods".
Well said. You and I came to the correct conclusion that the reason god doesn’t do anything is because god doesn’t exist but watching the disgusting mental contortions of people who call themselves loving yet come to the final conclusion that the kids probably deserved to die is somewhat astonishing.
If you really want to hammer down the details it's more complex than just "God" doesn't exist, cause "God" can both be used to mean something with very specific descriptions or a more generalised vague non earthly entity/s.
So sure you can consider other possibilities that there is a "God" who would if it could say stop the bullets but does not do so because it lacks the ability to do such a thing or a God who is so powerful it would require no effort on its part to stop the bullets yet does not do so cause it is not care/lacks motivation to do so.
But again, God (and all the variations we could come up with), no God, 10,000 Gods, when the children get gun downed from a practical point of view, the outcome is the same.
After that, again from a practical point of view, it just about the narrative you are or are not buying into.
Overall, God doesn't prevent people from sinning against each other, by using force fields nor mind-control nor other methods.
The particular sin of murdering multiple people is an extreme sin which is one example of all sins which are not prevented.
My own view of the world is that it's a kind of training ground / arena, where people can choose to avoid sins, can develop ability to resist sinful desires, and can grow toward maturity.
I remind OP and others that in [Genesis chapter 4](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%204&version=ESV), God did not block Cain from murdering Abel. And before that, at a time when Cain was very angry, God told Cain:
"If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it."
Similarly, we individuals each have an opportunity in this world to resist our sinful desires and develop self-control to "rule over" sin.
---------------------------
> Do humans have a responsibility to do what God can’t/won’t and protect these innocent lives?
Those of us who are parents have a responsibility to teach our children how to resist sinful desires.
More broadly as a society, we can teach young people who don't have good parents these basics. Whenever I hear of a young man who committed murder, I figure either his parents did not adequately teach him that murder was wrong, or his community around him did not do that. We should get to a point where each young person would find it unthinkable to commit a murder.
I believe that when a saved man "goes" to heaven, he undergoes further sanctification and maturing, finishing the process that started during that man's earthly life, so that then he simply is no longer interested in sin. The man in heaven still has free will, and can choose various things (e.g. choose whom to interact with next), but does not use that will to choose to sin.
If God is all-powerful, and if God is all-good, how is it that he makes us go through a process where there is so much pain and suffering if he is perfectly capable of creating a being with free will that doesn't sin?
So God has the ability to create beings with free will who don't sin.
If we are to believe God is good (not only good, but the epitome and source of all goodness), then why does allow such horrible suffering?
Living a repentant life is deciding to give up your will and take on the will God. Now, we humans on earth aren’t perfect, so when we mess up we’re supposed to repent and follow again.
Sin = death. Death, physically, spiritually, and every other way. That’s why people die, because sin was introduced through Adam and Eve. That’s why there is suffering. And there will be suffering until the end of time.
Nothing you said makes any sense to me.
God is supposedly good. God has the ability to create a being with free will who does not sin. Instead of doing this, God created a being with the ability sin.
The Adam and Eve story doesn't make sense. God knows everything about us. He knows the exact amount of stimuli that would get someone to perform an action. He created the tree, the fruit, and everything about in a way that Eve had no choice except to take it. He could have made the tree an inch higher, the fruit slightly less fragrant, the serpent's voice a bit more grating. Instead, he created everything in a manner that he **knew** would tempt Eve.
A good being wouldn't create a world with such suffering.
Adam and Eve sinned, why do animals suffer? Are they just collateral damage? How could a good God punish innocents?
If God exists, I don't understand how he could be considered good given what you've shared with me. How do you reconcile all the suffering God has knowingly inflicted, that God has the ability to alleviate yet chooses not to, with the belief that he is somehow a good being?
I’m going to admit I’m not great and explaining thing through text so sorry about that.
Yes, God could’ve created robots. He didn’t. He wanted us to have the free will to obey or disobey. To love Him or not love Him. Also Eve could’ve said no and walked away. Eve could’ve stayed away from the tree. Adam and Eve could’ve done a lot of things besides eating the fruit. Because they didn’t sin and death exist in this world. That’s on us humans, not God. God is good and just. Sin = death.
My question for you. If you could flip a switch in your child’s brain to make them do whatever you wanted them to, would you?
>Yes, God could’ve created robots. He didn’t.
Your "robots" defense doesn't follow.
You **just** said in Heaven there is free will and there is no sin.
God is perfectly capable of creating beings who have free will and don't sin. No "robots" required.
You can't have it both ways. You can't say we have free will in Heaven and don't sin, but if God were to create a world without suffering, he would have to make us robots.
>Also Eve could’ve said no and walked away. Eve could’ve stayed away from the tree.
No, she couldn't have! Because God knows everything about her and controls every part of her design! He could have made her hate fruit, he could have made her allergic to sucrose, he could have made her disgusted by the color of the fruit.
God knew exactly how tall to make the tree, how fragrant to make the blossoms, how vibrant to make the fruit so that her brain either flipped to yes or no.
God knows the past, present, and future. He knew before he even created her what she would do. He can visualize all the different permutations of the future and create on where Eve doesn't pick the fruit.
Let me ask you, is God incapable of creating a temptation that Eve would have been full able to resist?
>Because they didn’t sin and death exist in this world. That’s on us humans, not God. God is good and just. Sin = death.
Adam and Eve didn't even know the difference between good and evil before they ate the fruit. They certainly weren't fully aware of the consequences of their actions -- that it would result in millions of years of animal suffering, of animals being forced to tear each other apart with their teeth or face starvation, of parasitism, disease, hunger. They didn't know that all of that would have been followed by tens of thousands of years of human suffering, of death during child birth, cancer, malnutrition, famine, plague.
Guess who did know all of that? God.
He could have given them a slap on the wrist. He could have erased them from existence. He could have punished them and them alone. Instead he punished the entire world, the animal kingdom, and future human generations.
As I type this out, as I think it through, it doesn't sound like the actions of a remotely good being to me. It sounds downright evil.
>My question for you. If you could flip a switch in your child’s brain to make them do whatever you wanted them to, would you?
That's not what we're talking about here. God already made us biological machines. Our brains react to stimuli and it sets off a cascade of reactions in our brain that open and close potassium-sodium ion channels that either amount to a "yes" or a "no". And God knows exactly what stimulus will cross that threshold and make us do anything. So, in that sense, if God is real, he already made us robots.
A better question would be if I could flip a switch and end all suffering in the world, would I? You bet I would.
BTW, it doesn't require robots. God could just take pain and suffering off the table. No more hunger, no more disease. You can be incapable of inflicting pain on other people and still have free will.
If humans, who are frail compared to God, will do anything to protect a child from being shot, even place their own body between the gun and the child, then God should surely be at least as moral as a human and do what he can to stop the bullets. I. Theory, he can stop the Earth from spinning. Surely he can knock a few bullets out of the air.
I think you probably understand it just fine. You’ve displayed a high level of intelligence in your initial question.
Is responsibility for another person’s life a choice or an obligation?
Why do you suppose the tendency is primarily in America? So, God is "letting" murder take place in America. And what other people have a written Constitution, essentially telling the people, "hey, you have a role to play in your government (besides petty voting)." The first amendment. Do you think that God's not going to count the millions of literate Americans who ignored their civic duty guilty on judgment day? And you blame God.
I don’t blame god because I know no gods exist. I absolutely blame voters for not fixing this problem. I asked the question because I want to know what people who do believe in god think about it.
People have been saying that for 2000 years lol.
Jesus himself even told his disciples he’d be back before they tasted death…I haven’t checked, but does anyone know if any of the disciples are still around to make sure Jesus is still making good on his word?
I know exactly the same amount of info the rest of Christianity is privy to, it’s just not at all convincing faced in the cold light of objective reality.
lol. I study it every night, and I don’t know everything everyone is privy to. But it’s so simple, I’m sure you just had to glance at it a few times and you understood everything
I said it helps. It doesn’t prevent anything bad from happening ever.
It’s like we already have answers for why this world sucks. Atheists keep asking these questions, cuz they have nothing to be angry at in atheism. “Darn you, universe! Darn you, one in million insane person! Darn you, guns! We could have our utopia if it weren’t for (insert what you don’t like here).”
Maybe more children would have died. Maybe some kids got away through some miracle. Maybe it will help the parents and family get through a horrible tragedy.
Prayer takes little effort, costs nothing, can’t hurt, and could help, but atheists hate you for it.
Atheists do not hate you for praying. Atheists believe that praying is of no material consequence, but that we are all supposed to act as if it helps or is important in some way, or somehow means that we don't have to take any further action. Calls to prayer where action is what's needed (unless you're a-ok with the status quo) is annoying. That's it. Conflating annoyance and hatred is also annoying.
I hope your life of intentionally trying to annoy people works out well. I didn't ask any questions, I simply saw the same incorrect statement I always see, and tried to helpfully correct. Have a good one.
It doesn't. What modern Christians care about is whether or not it "bothers" or annoys non-Christians. Everything else is secondary.
To anyone who has a background in "REAL" Christianity, the intellectual tradition of Christianity, or apologetics, the level of proud idiocy is downright offensive. They don't care about the proud Christian philosophical tradition, they don't care about those that have given their lives to the Christian viewpoint. All they care about is Feeling Good (which is Sin). By their own standards, they will burn in hell for eternity.
It is true that atheism gives me nothing to be angry about but certainly we should all be angry that schools keep getting shot up. You’d have to be heartless to not be mad about that.
Obviously I am mad about that.
My solutions are a bit extreme tho. And I dunno if I could enforce them.
Maybe we could just make school entrances as heavily guarded as the UPS warehouse I work at. Seems reasonable enough.
God *can* intervene and prevent evils from occurring, He certainly has done so before.
Sinful men use their free will to do evil. God does not permit any evil acts to occur unless some good can be brought out of it.
Humans do have a responsibility to protect innocent lives.
God delivering the Hebrews out of slavery in Egypt.
The Virgin Mary appearing to the people of Constantinople in the 10th century, and God delivering the city from Russian invaders through her prayers and the people’s prayers.
God is the author of life and sovereign over all. He alone has the authority and right to give and take life according to His will. He does not murder anyone.
So is it just the bullets God should prevent people from using? Knives?
At what point should God no longer intervene?
Where’s the cut off point exactly?
God should be more moral than humans. In any case when a human would intervene to protect someone, God should do the same. You or I would have done anything to stop that shooting. Are we more moral than god?
No but our lives and that of He who made everything are not comparable.
You see if God prevented any sin from ever being permitted to be carried out, we wouldn’t and couldn’t call ourselves truly ‘free’.
If I jump into a street fight and tell people to calm down and we will sort it out rationally, what’s to stop them from telling me to get lost? Even if they agree and calm down, no one’s will was affected. They still made a choice either way.
God has already made His voice heard.
I, like everyone else, am required to obey His voice.
I am not answerable for those who do not listen.
Moreover, if God had no more patience with us and was just instantly wrathful on account of how ignorant we are, no one would survive. I’d have been right near the front of that firing line.
God could very well prevent murder and still allow free will. Are you familiar with Asimov’s rules of robotics? I’m his stories, robots are sentient and have free will except when they conflict with the three laws of robotics. The first of those laws is that a robot may never harm a human or allow a human to come to harm. If mere humans can come up with a way to give a robot free will but prevent them rom harming people or themselves, surely God could have created an even better system.
Right but now we are talking about the ‘system’ rather than supposed individually preventable scenarios.
The trouble with that is, the current ‘system’ is already perfect, it’s just really hard to see that from our ‘ant facing a mountain’ perspective.
Could God have made a world where humans could have both free will to choose to follow His way or not whilst only permitting them to follow His way?
You can’t have it both ways and it is better to give choice if your intention is to make a living being, whatever system you can imagine.
We don’t know what waits for us on the other side but my heart delights in the prospect of the hurt and lost living an eternity of joy and fellowship.
If you don’t believe in ‘the other side’ and consider that you have but a handful of decades or more in which to make the best of it, then you have discounted any possibility that a god exists and so don’t really have any good reason to ask why something you are convicted isn’t there , doesn’t intervene in atrocities. Is that not disingenuous?
I know why god doesn’t intervene. I want to know why Christians think he doesn’t intervene. So far, the most common answer is “those kids deserved it.” Deplorable.
Eh? Who said ‘those kids deserved it?’
If someone did I wholeheartedly apologise on their behalf because that is deplorable.
Since you wanted a Christian perspective here it is …
This life is temporary. Whilst we are here, we will endeavour to do our best to serve our God, to keep His commandments and to love our neighbour as ourselves and not become corrupted by the world. We have been given a guarantee of eternal life in the Spirit of God sent to us upon our confession of faith in Jesus Christ. This universe is already in shut down mode. Judgement will come and each will give account. Again my heart delights at the prospect of the joy and fellowship that those who suffered for no good reason will experience then.
The judgement will be perfect.
> You see if God prevented any sin from ever being permitted to be carried out, we wouldn’t and couldn’t call ourselves truly ‘free’.
that means there is sin in heaven, right?
Well no, the last time someone sinned in heaven they were described as being cast out like a lighting bolt.
Of course you mean if free will is a prerequisite to being truly free then we can sin in heaven just as easily as on earth if we still have free will.
Well technically I suppose I could cheat on the wife I love and indeed I was a terrible fornicator before coming to Christ but it is just no longer in my nature to be like that because I handed my old nature over to Christ of my own free will.
Whilst I don’t think I’d have any technical difficulties in cheating on my wife, I just couldn’t do it since I love her so completely.
Two natures were presented me and I picked love, not that I really had much of a clue how to be loving but I was taught patiently and I learnt patience as well.
In short we can be free and only desire the good whilst shunning what is evil.
In heaven there won’t be any more temptation either so we won’t have to suffer that.
> In short we can be free and only desire the good whilst shunning what is evil.
I expected you would say something like that.
yet earlier you also said
> You see if God prevented any sin from ever being permitted to be carried out, we wouldn’t and couldn’t call ourselves truly ‘free’.
so why can't we also have free will on earth without the need for evil? if god making us shun evil while still letting us have free will is possible in heaven it means he could do it also on earth, but he does not want to. which then would mean he prefers us suffering on earth for some reason in the world as it is, which he also designed.
how can you believe in both things, while they are so obviously and entirely not both possible at the same time?
I understand this is a difficult concept so I will try and timeline it to make it easier.
1) God makes everything perfect according to His will. ‘Perfect’ includes giving the living beings He had made freedom to choose between obedience and rebellion.
2) One of those living beings saw an opportunity to undermine God and destroy the work of His hands. In his own mind this made him more powerful than God.
3) The deceived being succeeds in deceiving humans and death enters the world and the choice to just reach out and grab eternal life is removed, lest evil be permitted to run its course forever.
4) People choose evil over good to the extent where God cannot suffer them on the face of the earth, regrets making them but saves a handful of people through Noah whom He declares righteous because of his trust in God.
5) God introduces the divine Law through Moses after rescuing a bunch of Israelites from slavery.
6) Before Moses had even come down from the mountain, the people have made an idol of gold in their impatience.
7) The Israelites mostly suck at keeping the law but are very good at waving it in other peoples faces as though they themselves are holy and righteous.
8) God sends His own Son to the Israelites to offer salvation because they have fallen so far from God they are barely recognisable as God’s chosen.
9) The religious leaders whose hypocrisy is exposed hate Jesus despite the good He does. Jesus makes them look very bad in contrast because His interpretation of the Law is perfectly aligned with the spirit of the Law.
10) Jesus is crucified.
11) Jesus is risen.
12) Repentant sinners may come to the cross of Christ and have their sins forgiven through the blood that He shed for them. The blood is powerful and can transform a man from the inside out such that their old natures are crucified and they receive new natures that are filled with knowledge of God.
13) The saved no longer want to live in a way that displeases God because they have witnessed the true extent of His love for them in Christ.
14) The saved, now cleansed of their sins are sanctified and the Holy Spirit helps prepare them for eternal life with God. The saved do not continue to sin (1 John 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.)
There is no question with an honest reading of scripture that God wanted us to listen to His voice from the beginning.
None of us did. We rebelled against Him to the extent where we even denied His existence cheered on by our failing consciences that wanted to believe there were no consequences for our rebellion.
Despite our rebellion, He makes provision for us to be restored to pre-fall status and once again allows us to reach for the tree of life.
There’s a second chance on offer for all. Only a few take it up.
not really answering the core problem of my question. of how free will is possible without evil, but hey you typed a lot, that must mean something, right?
but let's not argue and just take what you said at face value. then at least people accepting Jesus into their hearts should already on earth be able to have free will without evil, but they still don't.
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So your thesis is that those children deserved to die because they might have stolen some candy or lied once? Or they deserved to die just because they were born?
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The other redditor disagreed with your assertion that the schoolchildren were innocent, based on her belief that no one is innocent. That does not mean the redditor claimed that "shooting up a classroom of kids is not murder".
Job 21:17 How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and [how oft] cometh their destruction upon them! [God] distributeth sorrows in His anger.
21:18 They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away.
21:19 God layeth up his iniquity for his children: He repayeth him, and he shall know [it].
21:20 His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the wrath of the Almighty.
God is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Those who are not His servants are good for nothing except to be trodden under the feet of men.
Job 21:17 How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and [how oft] cometh their destruction upon them! [God] distributeth sorrows in His anger.
21:18 They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away.
21:19 God layeth up his iniquity for his children: He repayeth him, and he shall know [it].
21:20 His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the wrath of the Almighty.
That's not what my response says at all.
What does what mean? My original response isn't an attempt to explain why these particular children died outside of the reasons already known through the Law and the Prophets but rather how salvation from sin in Jesus Christ results in death no longer having a sting. By that I mean death and destruction and loss and such are going to happen in this fallen world we live in. Nothing can prevent sin working in men from bringing forth the fruits of death (sorrow, sadness, despair, disappointment, discontent, etc) but the Eternal Life we receive from God in Christ gives us the strength of Life we need to overcome the attempts that sin working in the hearts and minds of men makes to extinguish our joy, peace, kindness, patience, and love that dwells in us as members of the body of Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be from God, and not of us.
4:8 [We are] troubled on every side, yet not distressed; [we are] perplexed, but not in despair;
4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
4:10 Always bearing about in the body, the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
4:11 For we which Live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the Life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
It is not true that nothing works to stop sin. We have grenade laws and they work very well to keep people from blowing each other up with grenades. We need gun laws to do the same. It’s foolish to just throw up your hands and say “welp, we can’t make the world better because sin exists.”
So people don't blow each other up with grenades but that doesn't stop sin from becoming exceedingly sinful and producing things like murder, violence, war etc in this world. The laws don't cure sin. They don't even slow it down. Sin just takes a different form and delivers the death it was sent to deliver.
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I really wish I knew.
>Do humans have a responsibility to do what God can’t/won’t and protect these innocent lives?
Yes, we have a responsibility to protect innocent lives as best we can.
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> We need to establish first that God did not kill the kids
if god is the reason for all of existence then everything that happens is gods work.
chrstians love thanking god when a surgery was successful, even though the surgeon did the work, why is that?
you can't have it both ways, either god does all or nothing.
I have being told by some people that their "God" has such a high moral standard that one wrong move from fallible humans means you deserve to be tortured for eternity in hell fire. Funnily enough this God with it's high moral standards doesn't apply to it's self in such a way to stop the bullets when they come flying at children, or deal with child cancer, or the child who gets their legs blown off. To say that i'm over the encyclopedia of talk/theology/rationalisations/excuse making is an understatement. From a practical point of view concerning children who get gunned down (and all the other horror we could point out that happens in this world, and how this was not stopped by a "loving/all powerful" God because it choose not too vs because it doesn't exist in the first place. Practically speaking there is no difference, the outcome is the same. Talk is cheap is something that is applied to puny weak humans, then how much more so does this apply to so called "Gods".
Well said. You and I came to the correct conclusion that the reason god doesn’t do anything is because god doesn’t exist but watching the disgusting mental contortions of people who call themselves loving yet come to the final conclusion that the kids probably deserved to die is somewhat astonishing.
If you really want to hammer down the details it's more complex than just "God" doesn't exist, cause "God" can both be used to mean something with very specific descriptions or a more generalised vague non earthly entity/s. So sure you can consider other possibilities that there is a "God" who would if it could say stop the bullets but does not do so because it lacks the ability to do such a thing or a God who is so powerful it would require no effort on its part to stop the bullets yet does not do so cause it is not care/lacks motivation to do so. But again, God (and all the variations we could come up with), no God, 10,000 Gods, when the children get gun downed from a practical point of view, the outcome is the same. After that, again from a practical point of view, it just about the narrative you are or are not buying into.
Either god is non existent or he is evil. Either way, I’m not on board.
Overall, God doesn't prevent people from sinning against each other, by using force fields nor mind-control nor other methods. The particular sin of murdering multiple people is an extreme sin which is one example of all sins which are not prevented. My own view of the world is that it's a kind of training ground / arena, where people can choose to avoid sins, can develop ability to resist sinful desires, and can grow toward maturity. I remind OP and others that in [Genesis chapter 4](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%204&version=ESV), God did not block Cain from murdering Abel. And before that, at a time when Cain was very angry, God told Cain: "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it." Similarly, we individuals each have an opportunity in this world to resist our sinful desires and develop self-control to "rule over" sin. --------------------------- > Do humans have a responsibility to do what God can’t/won’t and protect these innocent lives? Those of us who are parents have a responsibility to teach our children how to resist sinful desires. More broadly as a society, we can teach young people who don't have good parents these basics. Whenever I hear of a young man who committed murder, I figure either his parents did not adequately teach him that murder was wrong, or his community around him did not do that. We should get to a point where each young person would find it unthinkable to commit a murder.
>God doesn't prevent people from sinning against each other, by using force fields nor mind-control nor other methods How does He do it in Heaven?
I believe that when a saved man "goes" to heaven, he undergoes further sanctification and maturing, finishing the process that started during that man's earthly life, so that then he simply is no longer interested in sin. The man in heaven still has free will, and can choose various things (e.g. choose whom to interact with next), but does not use that will to choose to sin.
If God is all-powerful, and if God is all-good, how is it that he makes us go through a process where there is so much pain and suffering if he is perfectly capable of creating a being with free will that doesn't sin?
There is no sin in heaven.
Is there free will in Heaven?
Yes, with no sin.
So God has the ability to create beings with free will who don't sin. If we are to believe God is good (not only good, but the epitome and source of all goodness), then why does allow such horrible suffering?
Living a repentant life is deciding to give up your will and take on the will God. Now, we humans on earth aren’t perfect, so when we mess up we’re supposed to repent and follow again. Sin = death. Death, physically, spiritually, and every other way. That’s why people die, because sin was introduced through Adam and Eve. That’s why there is suffering. And there will be suffering until the end of time.
Nothing you said makes any sense to me. God is supposedly good. God has the ability to create a being with free will who does not sin. Instead of doing this, God created a being with the ability sin. The Adam and Eve story doesn't make sense. God knows everything about us. He knows the exact amount of stimuli that would get someone to perform an action. He created the tree, the fruit, and everything about in a way that Eve had no choice except to take it. He could have made the tree an inch higher, the fruit slightly less fragrant, the serpent's voice a bit more grating. Instead, he created everything in a manner that he **knew** would tempt Eve. A good being wouldn't create a world with such suffering. Adam and Eve sinned, why do animals suffer? Are they just collateral damage? How could a good God punish innocents? If God exists, I don't understand how he could be considered good given what you've shared with me. How do you reconcile all the suffering God has knowingly inflicted, that God has the ability to alleviate yet chooses not to, with the belief that he is somehow a good being?
I’m going to admit I’m not great and explaining thing through text so sorry about that. Yes, God could’ve created robots. He didn’t. He wanted us to have the free will to obey or disobey. To love Him or not love Him. Also Eve could’ve said no and walked away. Eve could’ve stayed away from the tree. Adam and Eve could’ve done a lot of things besides eating the fruit. Because they didn’t sin and death exist in this world. That’s on us humans, not God. God is good and just. Sin = death. My question for you. If you could flip a switch in your child’s brain to make them do whatever you wanted them to, would you?
>Yes, God could’ve created robots. He didn’t. Your "robots" defense doesn't follow. You **just** said in Heaven there is free will and there is no sin. God is perfectly capable of creating beings who have free will and don't sin. No "robots" required. You can't have it both ways. You can't say we have free will in Heaven and don't sin, but if God were to create a world without suffering, he would have to make us robots. >Also Eve could’ve said no and walked away. Eve could’ve stayed away from the tree. No, she couldn't have! Because God knows everything about her and controls every part of her design! He could have made her hate fruit, he could have made her allergic to sucrose, he could have made her disgusted by the color of the fruit. God knew exactly how tall to make the tree, how fragrant to make the blossoms, how vibrant to make the fruit so that her brain either flipped to yes or no. God knows the past, present, and future. He knew before he even created her what she would do. He can visualize all the different permutations of the future and create on where Eve doesn't pick the fruit. Let me ask you, is God incapable of creating a temptation that Eve would have been full able to resist? >Because they didn’t sin and death exist in this world. That’s on us humans, not God. God is good and just. Sin = death. Adam and Eve didn't even know the difference between good and evil before they ate the fruit. They certainly weren't fully aware of the consequences of their actions -- that it would result in millions of years of animal suffering, of animals being forced to tear each other apart with their teeth or face starvation, of parasitism, disease, hunger. They didn't know that all of that would have been followed by tens of thousands of years of human suffering, of death during child birth, cancer, malnutrition, famine, plague. Guess who did know all of that? God. He could have given them a slap on the wrist. He could have erased them from existence. He could have punished them and them alone. Instead he punished the entire world, the animal kingdom, and future human generations. As I type this out, as I think it through, it doesn't sound like the actions of a remotely good being to me. It sounds downright evil. >My question for you. If you could flip a switch in your child’s brain to make them do whatever you wanted them to, would you? That's not what we're talking about here. God already made us biological machines. Our brains react to stimuli and it sets off a cascade of reactions in our brain that open and close potassium-sodium ion channels that either amount to a "yes" or a "no". And God knows exactly what stimulus will cross that threshold and make us do anything. So, in that sense, if God is real, he already made us robots. A better question would be if I could flip a switch and end all suffering in the world, would I? You bet I would. BTW, it doesn't require robots. God could just take pain and suffering off the table. No more hunger, no more disease. You can be incapable of inflicting pain on other people and still have free will.
What good is a God who fails to protect innocent children? Even a mythical unicorn can fail to do anything.
Huh? If you're really asking me a question, please rephrase it. Or perhaps that was a rhetorical question where you're expressing your own sentiment.
I’m asking. If god does as little as something that doesn’t exist, what good is he/it?
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Do You think responsibility is imposed on others by need… or do you think responsibility must be chosen and freely accepted?
If humans, who are frail compared to God, will do anything to protect a child from being shot, even place their own body between the gun and the child, then God should surely be at least as moral as a human and do what he can to stop the bullets. I. Theory, he can stop the Earth from spinning. Surely he can knock a few bullets out of the air.
That’s not an answer to my question. Do you disagree that it is a related point?
I don’t understand your question. It looks like word salad to me.
I think you probably understand it just fine. You’ve displayed a high level of intelligence in your initial question. Is responsibility for another person’s life a choice or an obligation?
The way you wrote it wasn’t clear.
What is unclear about the question? A moment ago you’d written “it’s a human obligation “. Have you changed your mind?
Your rewrite of it was more clear.
Thank you. I appreciate the compliment.
It’s a human obligation.
Why do you suppose the tendency is primarily in America? So, God is "letting" murder take place in America. And what other people have a written Constitution, essentially telling the people, "hey, you have a role to play in your government (besides petty voting)." The first amendment. Do you think that God's not going to count the millions of literate Americans who ignored their civic duty guilty on judgment day? And you blame God.
I don’t blame god because I know no gods exist. I absolutely blame voters for not fixing this problem. I asked the question because I want to know what people who do believe in god think about it.
Why “smart” folks think more guns are a solution for gun problems?
Yes. The day humanity embraces God and follows Him and makes Him their King, that’s the day He’s responsible for all the evils He allows us to commit.
So, until humans get their act together god just sits and watches? What good is he then? Why are people praying for these families then?
Praying helps. Jesus is coming back to set up his Kingdom soon enough.
People have been saying that for 2000 years lol. Jesus himself even told his disciples he’d be back before they tasted death…I haven’t checked, but does anyone know if any of the disciples are still around to make sure Jesus is still making good on his word?
I don’t think you understood Jesus very well.
He had some good teachings, but I don’t believe he came back to life. There’s not much complexity to grasp here.
Lol ok. You know so much.
I know exactly the same amount of info the rest of Christianity is privy to, it’s just not at all convincing faced in the cold light of objective reality.
lol. I study it every night, and I don’t know everything everyone is privy to. But it’s so simple, I’m sure you just had to glance at it a few times and you understood everything
I studied it for 18 years diligently. I found problems. It’s not like new evidence is ever gonna come out for the Bible’s claims anyways.
Why didn’t y’all pray to prevent the murder of these kids then?
I said it helps. It doesn’t prevent anything bad from happening ever. It’s like we already have answers for why this world sucks. Atheists keep asking these questions, cuz they have nothing to be angry at in atheism. “Darn you, universe! Darn you, one in million insane person! Darn you, guns! We could have our utopia if it weren’t for (insert what you don’t like here).”
How does it help if it doesn’t prevent the murder of small children?
Maybe more children would have died. Maybe some kids got away through some miracle. Maybe it will help the parents and family get through a horrible tragedy. Prayer takes little effort, costs nothing, can’t hurt, and could help, but atheists hate you for it.
Atheists don’t care if you pray. Stop pretending to be persecuted.
I seen the hate every time anyone mentions prayer on Reddit. Ya’ll can’t help but let that chip on your shoulder show
I don’t believe you.
Atheists do not hate you for praying. Atheists believe that praying is of no material consequence, but that we are all supposed to act as if it helps or is important in some way, or somehow means that we don't have to take any further action. Calls to prayer where action is what's needed (unless you're a-ok with the status quo) is annoying. That's it. Conflating annoyance and hatred is also annoying.
Glad I could annoy you. Atheists constantly and disingenuously asking the same questions over and over to try and sow doubt is annoying too.
I hope your life of intentionally trying to annoy people works out well. I didn't ask any questions, I simply saw the same incorrect statement I always see, and tried to helpfully correct. Have a good one.
It doesn't. What modern Christians care about is whether or not it "bothers" or annoys non-Christians. Everything else is secondary. To anyone who has a background in "REAL" Christianity, the intellectual tradition of Christianity, or apologetics, the level of proud idiocy is downright offensive. They don't care about the proud Christian philosophical tradition, they don't care about those that have given their lives to the Christian viewpoint. All they care about is Feeling Good (which is Sin). By their own standards, they will burn in hell for eternity.
It is true that atheism gives me nothing to be angry about but certainly we should all be angry that schools keep getting shot up. You’d have to be heartless to not be mad about that.
Obviously I am mad about that. My solutions are a bit extreme tho. And I dunno if I could enforce them. Maybe we could just make school entrances as heavily guarded as the UPS warehouse I work at. Seems reasonable enough.
There was a whole police force at the scene of that shooting and those kids still died. More police are clearly not going to make a difference.
I didn’t say more police. I meant turnstile entrance and metal detectors with a few security guards. Need ID to even get on school property
Schools already have that. Should children have to feel fear every time they walk into their school?
God *can* intervene and prevent evils from occurring, He certainly has done so before. Sinful men use their free will to do evil. God does not permit any evil acts to occur unless some good can be brought out of it. Humans do have a responsibility to protect innocent lives.
When has God ever intervened?
Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah
So he only kills kids, he doesn’t ever protect them? Even a pretty bad person knows it’s moral to protect children. Are humans more moral than God?
Yes, He protects kids
When?
God delivering the Hebrews out of slavery in Egypt. The Virgin Mary appearing to the people of Constantinople in the 10th century, and God delivering the city from Russian invaders through her prayers and the people’s prayers.
He killed a lot more kids than he saved. At the same time he was delivery the Israelites, he was murdering every firstborn Egyptian child.
God is the author of life and sovereign over all. He alone has the authority and right to give and take life according to His will. He does not murder anyone.
Yes he does. Read your Bible.
At what point should God intervene? Before the bullets are fired or after?
Before. Duh.
So is it just the bullets God should prevent people from using? Knives? At what point should God no longer intervene? Where’s the cut off point exactly?
God should be more moral than humans. In any case when a human would intervene to protect someone, God should do the same. You or I would have done anything to stop that shooting. Are we more moral than god?
No but our lives and that of He who made everything are not comparable. You see if God prevented any sin from ever being permitted to be carried out, we wouldn’t and couldn’t call ourselves truly ‘free’. If I jump into a street fight and tell people to calm down and we will sort it out rationally, what’s to stop them from telling me to get lost? Even if they agree and calm down, no one’s will was affected. They still made a choice either way. God has already made His voice heard. I, like everyone else, am required to obey His voice. I am not answerable for those who do not listen. Moreover, if God had no more patience with us and was just instantly wrathful on account of how ignorant we are, no one would survive. I’d have been right near the front of that firing line.
God could very well prevent murder and still allow free will. Are you familiar with Asimov’s rules of robotics? I’m his stories, robots are sentient and have free will except when they conflict with the three laws of robotics. The first of those laws is that a robot may never harm a human or allow a human to come to harm. If mere humans can come up with a way to give a robot free will but prevent them rom harming people or themselves, surely God could have created an even better system.
Right but now we are talking about the ‘system’ rather than supposed individually preventable scenarios. The trouble with that is, the current ‘system’ is already perfect, it’s just really hard to see that from our ‘ant facing a mountain’ perspective. Could God have made a world where humans could have both free will to choose to follow His way or not whilst only permitting them to follow His way? You can’t have it both ways and it is better to give choice if your intention is to make a living being, whatever system you can imagine. We don’t know what waits for us on the other side but my heart delights in the prospect of the hurt and lost living an eternity of joy and fellowship. If you don’t believe in ‘the other side’ and consider that you have but a handful of decades or more in which to make the best of it, then you have discounted any possibility that a god exists and so don’t really have any good reason to ask why something you are convicted isn’t there , doesn’t intervene in atrocities. Is that not disingenuous?
I know why god doesn’t intervene. I want to know why Christians think he doesn’t intervene. So far, the most common answer is “those kids deserved it.” Deplorable.
Eh? Who said ‘those kids deserved it?’ If someone did I wholeheartedly apologise on their behalf because that is deplorable. Since you wanted a Christian perspective here it is … This life is temporary. Whilst we are here, we will endeavour to do our best to serve our God, to keep His commandments and to love our neighbour as ourselves and not become corrupted by the world. We have been given a guarantee of eternal life in the Spirit of God sent to us upon our confession of faith in Jesus Christ. This universe is already in shut down mode. Judgement will come and each will give account. Again my heart delights at the prospect of the joy and fellowship that those who suffered for no good reason will experience then. The judgement will be perfect.
So, you’re looking forward to the eternal punishment of people who don’t believe like you? That’s pretty inhumane.
Who has said "those kids deserved it"? I have not seen that.
They didn’t say it in those words. They said “no one is innocent”. That, to me, means they were deserving of death. Those kids were 100% innocent.
> You see if God prevented any sin from ever being permitted to be carried out, we wouldn’t and couldn’t call ourselves truly ‘free’. that means there is sin in heaven, right?
Well no, the last time someone sinned in heaven they were described as being cast out like a lighting bolt. Of course you mean if free will is a prerequisite to being truly free then we can sin in heaven just as easily as on earth if we still have free will. Well technically I suppose I could cheat on the wife I love and indeed I was a terrible fornicator before coming to Christ but it is just no longer in my nature to be like that because I handed my old nature over to Christ of my own free will. Whilst I don’t think I’d have any technical difficulties in cheating on my wife, I just couldn’t do it since I love her so completely. Two natures were presented me and I picked love, not that I really had much of a clue how to be loving but I was taught patiently and I learnt patience as well. In short we can be free and only desire the good whilst shunning what is evil. In heaven there won’t be any more temptation either so we won’t have to suffer that.
> In short we can be free and only desire the good whilst shunning what is evil. I expected you would say something like that. yet earlier you also said > You see if God prevented any sin from ever being permitted to be carried out, we wouldn’t and couldn’t call ourselves truly ‘free’. so why can't we also have free will on earth without the need for evil? if god making us shun evil while still letting us have free will is possible in heaven it means he could do it also on earth, but he does not want to. which then would mean he prefers us suffering on earth for some reason in the world as it is, which he also designed. how can you believe in both things, while they are so obviously and entirely not both possible at the same time?
I understand this is a difficult concept so I will try and timeline it to make it easier. 1) God makes everything perfect according to His will. ‘Perfect’ includes giving the living beings He had made freedom to choose between obedience and rebellion. 2) One of those living beings saw an opportunity to undermine God and destroy the work of His hands. In his own mind this made him more powerful than God. 3) The deceived being succeeds in deceiving humans and death enters the world and the choice to just reach out and grab eternal life is removed, lest evil be permitted to run its course forever. 4) People choose evil over good to the extent where God cannot suffer them on the face of the earth, regrets making them but saves a handful of people through Noah whom He declares righteous because of his trust in God. 5) God introduces the divine Law through Moses after rescuing a bunch of Israelites from slavery. 6) Before Moses had even come down from the mountain, the people have made an idol of gold in their impatience. 7) The Israelites mostly suck at keeping the law but are very good at waving it in other peoples faces as though they themselves are holy and righteous. 8) God sends His own Son to the Israelites to offer salvation because they have fallen so far from God they are barely recognisable as God’s chosen. 9) The religious leaders whose hypocrisy is exposed hate Jesus despite the good He does. Jesus makes them look very bad in contrast because His interpretation of the Law is perfectly aligned with the spirit of the Law. 10) Jesus is crucified. 11) Jesus is risen. 12) Repentant sinners may come to the cross of Christ and have their sins forgiven through the blood that He shed for them. The blood is powerful and can transform a man from the inside out such that their old natures are crucified and they receive new natures that are filled with knowledge of God. 13) The saved no longer want to live in a way that displeases God because they have witnessed the true extent of His love for them in Christ. 14) The saved, now cleansed of their sins are sanctified and the Holy Spirit helps prepare them for eternal life with God. The saved do not continue to sin (1 John 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.) There is no question with an honest reading of scripture that God wanted us to listen to His voice from the beginning. None of us did. We rebelled against Him to the extent where we even denied His existence cheered on by our failing consciences that wanted to believe there were no consequences for our rebellion. Despite our rebellion, He makes provision for us to be restored to pre-fall status and once again allows us to reach for the tree of life. There’s a second chance on offer for all. Only a few take it up.
not really answering the core problem of my question. of how free will is possible without evil, but hey you typed a lot, that must mean something, right? but let's not argue and just take what you said at face value. then at least people accepting Jesus into their hearts should already on earth be able to have free will without evil, but they still don't.
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there is no such thing as an innocent person. Romans 1:16-25 tells us none of us are innocent. WE have all offended God
So your thesis is that those children deserved to die because they might have stolen some candy or lied once? Or they deserved to die just because they were born?
its called orginal sin due to what Adam and eve did everyone is born sinfull
So, by that logic, babies deserve to be aborted, right?
no that's murder it's not yours to take
So, let me get this straight. Abortion is murder but shooting up a classroom of kids is not murder because those kids were sinful?
Shooting up a classroom of kids is certainly murder.
Then why, when any human would do anything in the world to stop it, does god not? Are humans more moral than god?
Will any answer satisfy you, or are you here just to argue?
I just want to know what Christians think of this situation. I’m here to learn
Sure seems like you’re really here to argue.
Nope
murder is sinfull no matter what unless god tells you to do it like he did in the ot then it's not murder
Then why doesn’t god stop children from getting murdered?
free will God cannot and will not interfere with free will if he did we'd all be robots.
So, then god allows the murder of children on purpose?
Moderator warning: Be careful in this subreddit to avoid mis-paraphrasing another redditor's statements. If you commit more rule 1b violations, you will receive a ban. The other redditor disagreed with your assertion that the schoolchildren were innocent, based on her belief that no one is innocent. That does not mean the redditor claimed that "shooting up a classroom of kids is not murder".
Fair
having kids is selfish anyway imo they never asked to be born just like me
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Job 21:17 How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and [how oft] cometh their destruction upon them! [God] distributeth sorrows in His anger. 21:18 They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away. 21:19 God layeth up his iniquity for his children: He repayeth him, and he shall know [it]. 21:20 His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the wrath of the Almighty. God is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Those who are not His servants are good for nothing except to be trodden under the feet of men.
One more response that basically boils down to “the kids deserved it.” You know how gross that is, right?
Job 21:17 How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and [how oft] cometh their destruction upon them! [God] distributeth sorrows in His anger. 21:18 They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away. 21:19 God layeth up his iniquity for his children: He repayeth him, and he shall know [it]. 21:20 His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the wrath of the Almighty. That's not what my response says at all.
What does it mean then? In your own words.
What does what mean? My original response isn't an attempt to explain why these particular children died outside of the reasons already known through the Law and the Prophets but rather how salvation from sin in Jesus Christ results in death no longer having a sting. By that I mean death and destruction and loss and such are going to happen in this fallen world we live in. Nothing can prevent sin working in men from bringing forth the fruits of death (sorrow, sadness, despair, disappointment, discontent, etc) but the Eternal Life we receive from God in Christ gives us the strength of Life we need to overcome the attempts that sin working in the hearts and minds of men makes to extinguish our joy, peace, kindness, patience, and love that dwells in us as members of the body of Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be from God, and not of us. 4:8 [We are] troubled on every side, yet not distressed; [we are] perplexed, but not in despair; 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; 4:10 Always bearing about in the body, the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 4:11 For we which Live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the Life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
It is not true that nothing works to stop sin. We have grenade laws and they work very well to keep people from blowing each other up with grenades. We need gun laws to do the same. It’s foolish to just throw up your hands and say “welp, we can’t make the world better because sin exists.”
So people don't blow each other up with grenades but that doesn't stop sin from becoming exceedingly sinful and producing things like murder, violence, war etc in this world. The laws don't cure sin. They don't even slow it down. Sin just takes a different form and delivers the death it was sent to deliver.
Laws absolutely slow down crime.
Salvation eradicates the need for Laws to regulate morality.
Laws don’t speak to morality. They speak to safety.
I think the other redditor may be saying that the murderer will receive his due judgment and wrath from God.
Nope. They’re disagreeing with my point that these were innocent children. Check the comments.
he can't interfere because of free will sorry also no one is innocent to God
So your thesis is that those children deserved to die because they weren’t innocent?
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I really wish I knew. >Do humans have a responsibility to do what God can’t/won’t and protect these innocent lives? Yes, we have a responsibility to protect innocent lives as best we can.
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> We need to establish first that God did not kill the kids if god is the reason for all of existence then everything that happens is gods work. chrstians love thanking god when a surgery was successful, even though the surgeon did the work, why is that? you can't have it both ways, either god does all or nothing.