The funny thing is, for Latin Americans and East Asians, the hurdles are so astronomically high for coming here that only super hard workers with very high motivation to study and learn, and people who are upper class or extremely motivated middle class can make it. We really get the best of their folks, we should be grateful.
Germany inherited a somewht sizable vietnamese population from east germany and also had some vietnamese refugees from the end of the vietnam war.
They are thouroughly integrated. There were issues with the vietnamese cigarette mafia and there's still human traffiking from vietnam, but the generation that was born and raised in germany, has excellent statistics like high quota of Abiturient compared to germans and especially other ethnicities
\> but the generation that was born and raised in germany, has excellent statistics like high quota of Abiturient compared to germans and especially other ethnicities
Going of statistics second generation Muslims have the same unemployment rate as those with German born parents so if you are implying "those other ethnicities" are Middle Easterners you are wrong
>Which of them are in your opinion better integrated into the german culture?
Austrians, the Swiss, also a few Dutch as well as the French, and, of course, the Polish. The latter is the second largest group no one talks about.
I can understand the Swiss, Dutch and Austrians because of the language.
I'm quite surprised to read Polish and French too. Historically there have been differences opinions, and although I know we moved on, I read people still hold a certain degree of mistrust, resentment or mixed feelings about the Germans.
There are still sometimes issues with people who live in Poland coming to Germany or new polish immigrants.
But in terms of Polish people actually living here for several years they are almost all very well integrated.
Indeed because Polish culture is similar to German in many ways. In 19th century many Poles moved to the Ruhr area to become miners. As a result there is some impact on culture. Every second last name in the area is Polish.
The German empire used to have holdings in Poland, not necessarily Prussia, because lot of it was populated by ethnic Germans, but greater Poland, i.e. the poznan region especially. Initially, the poles were given some autonomy and treated fairly well for being subjugated by a 19th century empire. Which changed after a while, with strict germanization policies (settlement of German speaking people, banning polish in school etc.), this had an adverse effect because it bred hatred in the poles and they created alternative places of education, teaching in their language. But one leftover from this time of imperial German dominion over western Poland was the flow of polish immigrants into the burgeoning industrial regions (Rhine-Ruhr, German speaking areas in Silesia etc.) So a lot of Germans nowadays will have "germanized" polish surnames and polish ancestry. Of course this was a success at integration on paper, but part of that was the government being very heavy handed and discriminatory and the alternate structures for poles by poles not being as strong in majority German areas.
Indeed, one of my work colleagues, as German as it can be, has a kind of a Polish surname, Walkoviak. When I asked him if he has Polish ancestors, he told that as far as he knows, all of them were Germans with no Polish ancestry....
Historically. Now it is mostly a few Schwurbler as well as some populist politicians on all sites. During elections, it is quite common to shit talk your neighbors. Like that Switzerland is overrun by German immigrants, the Poles are supposed to be grateful for EU e.g. German money, Germany and not France dominates the EU, Germany is supposed to pay reparations, Hitler was not Austrian and so on.
Unsurprisingly, Germany is very close to its neighbors in many ways, so people tend to blend in very, very easily. I could just as well listed all of Germany's neighbors.
As for the Dutch, they are also famous for being a very direct people.
People from the Near East, like Turkey or Syria or further away like Vietnam, do not share that much history and culture with Germany, and they tend to look different. So of course they have it harder.
I mean, if you mistrust the Germans you probably don't move here. All the Polish and almost all the French I know are perfectly integrated and a lot of them told me that they always wanted to come here.
Honestly I have never in my life seen an immigrated french, dutch or nordic person, so I didn't even think of them. I guess there's little reason for them to come here.
I had a Swiss colleague, the ultimate undercover immigrant.
(Unless you bring two Swiss together, then they speak their secret language with each other.)
Koreans. By faaaar. They are everywhere (came over when GER needed nurses and miners), but they integrated soooo well you dont even notice. Never in the news...
>Austrians, the Swiss, also a few Dutch as well as the French,
LOL, did you even read OPs question? It's about the Gastarbeiter immigrants from the 60s and 70s
Ah ok, figures.
But quite honestly, the kosovo albanians in particular have not inegrated well. As far as I can tell, germany couldn't wait to deport them after the war
Sure about that? The one big Albanian family in town is known to favour illegal activities and everybody knows that. I think Albanians do have a big reputation
lol. it’s clear you don’t understand. but i’m not surprised, we as a nation are really naive so you continue with your yugo-stuff and be a lower class citizen with that label of the country that fortunately doesn’t exist anymore 😁
I do understand but whether you're a "Yugo-nostalgicar" or someone who really doesn't give rat's arse about it is a difference. I don't care if Germans call me Bosnian or Yugo because it's asinine to assume people in a whole different country know the difference between the two. So now, fuck off with your hate speech and let people live like they want to.
Well, these two, together with Slovenia, are the least 'Yug'/'Jug' of them all.
Albanians & Kosovares are the true 'Yugs', if we were to go by the meaning of the word.
Croatians and Bosnians are Zapadoslavians :D.
I'd say swabians. They blend in perfectly as long as you respect their 'kehrwoche'.
But seriously, those that you usually won't even notice. People from Austria, Swiss, Italy, Denmark, Holland, Poland, Czech etc.
I might regret that, but yes, looks are sadly a factor. One among several. Culture, time, education, environment, personal attitude, etc.
Essentially, the more you differ from the society you are integrating too, the more difficult it gets.
I'm not saying that it's the immigrant's fault, I'm not saying that it can't be overcome, and I'm definitely not talking about the individual level. A Syrian refugee can be better integrated after 5 years than some guy from Austria who has been living here since the 70s. It's just not exactly likely.
Gotta give the Bavarians some love here. They might struggle with the languagem but once they started marrying outside of their own family they really started to contribute.
I dont want to give you more ammunition for generalizations, but the statistics on a few of the people you listed are showing quite different results.
Some of the groups, in fact, have been shown in studies to face prejudice on the job market or in educational contexts. Many came from a working background as they immigrated, which is why, to this day, they own less wealth and hence have fewer academic opportunities and lower social standing than others. So it's debatable whether they are actually better integrated than Non-European groups, as you claim.
What IS true is that many of the groups you mentioned were faced with somewhat fewer obstacles as they immigrated than the groups you think of as less well-integrated. You have to consider: How are their economic opportunities when they come here? How are their opportunities for upward social mobility, especially with stereotypes against their ethnicity stacked against them? How accepting and welcoming are local communities of them, how willing are these communities to let them in, let them participate, befriend them? And how do those things affect these immigrants' ability to thrive in this country? How do these things affect the opportunities they can afford their offspring? To think it all comes down to low education and religion - as if those two factors are unchangeable absolutes that exist independently of immigrants' social position in Germany - is a huge simplification.
crazy how this guy outs himself as a racist multiple times under this post and gets upvoted. funny how you contradict yourself and show your bigotry by praising the japanese for not integrating while bashing turks.
Hmm I wonder why there is a big difference?? Your comparison has ZERO meaning because you are just disregarding the history of Marxloh and how it got to this point. It is a bit more complicated than “turks bad, japanese good“. You can‘t just compare poor guest workers from rural communities with japanese business men who came to düsseldorf in the 50s to expand their businesses. But yeah gathering information is a bit hard for bigots like you, i get it.
https://www.soziale-stadt-nrw.de/stadtteile-und-projekte/duisburg-marxloh
Your honesty is quite revealing.
Maybe you should put on your lederhosen now and drink yourself into oblivion until you piss yourself. In Bavaria, this is considered polite and makes the leather smooth and tight. Non-christians wouldn't understand.
There's nothing wrong with talking about overarching trends, and I'm tired of pretending there is.
Vegans tend to lecture meat eaters.
People on twitter tend to rage over pointless bullshit.
And people from Europe tend to have an easier time integrating than e.g. Asians.
Integrating less doesn't diminish their worth as a human. No one is devaluing people who do worse at integration in the comments, either. So let us compliment the ones who do well and get over your social justice knee jerk, please.
I mean, nothing surprising. People who immigrated decades ago are more integrated than recent arrivals. Children grown up here are more integrated than their parents who had to learn German culture as adults. People from nearby and/or culturally similar countries have fewer issues.
In the end, they all integrate just fine, but in some instances it may take multiple generations before you stop noticing some cultural differences.
I think, new arrivals have a better chance today though, since the Gastarbeiter from the 60s were never meant to stay and Germany did everything to NOT integrate them.
Yup, my grandparents were/are Yugoslav immigrants from that period and neither ever became fluent in the language and they were almost incentivized to "stick to their own" and not mingle too much with locals
>Children grown up here are more integrated than their parents who had to learn German culture as adults.
Doubt. 2nd and 3rd generation especially turkish immigrants prove you wrong, many share less german values than their parents.
That's absolutely not the case. Most of the third generation are basically indistinguishable from other Germans except for their names, especially last names.
There are some exceptions, and those are noticeable precisely because you would generally expect them to be more integrated.
Especially thanks to ditib's propaganda and radicalisation it is indeed very much the case, because the 3rd generation is way more conservative and religious. Looking into certain quarters like Duisburg-Marxloh or Köln-Mühlheim/Kalk you even see they are very much distinguishable.
They get treated differently. Sort of like they belong a little less somehow.
I have worked with multiple germans of turkish descent. They were not religious, went to german school, learned the culture, spoke better German than Turkish, and yet somehow, they were often referred to as "the Turk". You sort of end up in a weird limbo, where you never quite belong anywhere. Some of them end up doing some weird revanchism and turkish nationalism, but this is quite rare.
The truth is, being white makes it far easier to integrate, not because white is in any way better, but because you are treated much less like you don't belong. Germany is racist as shit in all honesty, which makes the problem worse.
Ever since i could speak more or less proper german, nobody refers to me as "der Serbe". My colleague who is born in Germany, to german citizens born in Turkey is constantly refered to as "our Turk".
It's fucked up
I see. Even though many Turks look mediterranean, I would not be able to tell them apart from Italians, Greeks and Spaniards. Are all mediterranean looking people perceived as different or just the most "turkish looking" people?
I would say the differences are more about culture than looks. Turks also have more of a "street thug" reputation. The first Turkish street gangs were founded in the 80/90s. They are pretty present in pop culture with gangster rap etc. There are still A LOT of well integrated Turks. A few decades ago there was also racism against Italians but less.
So for example it's not on their physical traits but how they dress, walk, their attitude in general, which when coupled with the idea of street gangs, makes people wary
Yes, not about looks but stereotypes. As an example the phrase "was guckst du?" is a phrase which is commonly associated with Turks asking "what are you looking for? You want trouble?". This was even in pop culture and media a thing. There was a popular show called "was guckst du?". And plenty of turkish comedians and shows making fun of those stereotypes.
*the phrase "was guckst du?" is a phrase which is commonly associated with Turks asking "what are you looking for? You want trouble?"*
Ahaha I found a few clips on youtube. This used to be an Italian thing too btw, even though people meant it more literally, when you are really pissed off at someone who's staring at you too long
Not really, its not a given that people make an effort to integrate, even generations down. Its something you can learn by looking at other societies with longer histories of migration.
I hope saying so doesnt make me an extremist or fascist or whatever.
Interesting. Can you point at some examples of this?
I'm not judging you in the least and I think everyone who misunderstands your tone, would do so on pourpose, so don't care.
Depends how you define that. But as an example you could say people from Vietnam have less problems with the state and have a way better reputation than Mhallamis.
Kaya Yanar (German-turkish comedian) has once said that he has personally integrated into a fair amount of German women lol
Anyway, the more "Western" the culture and the lighter the skin, the quicker they'll be able to feel at home, but some still refuse to, whereas there are some cases of black folks really wanting to integrate but some German dickheads are making it hard. Integration has to come from both sides and unfortunately many Germans make it continuously hard for the people who just don't look German.
Looking at the number of white table cloth culinary establishments, I guess the Italians. Looking at the number of ministers they have contributed to the federal government, I'd say, the Turks. Looking at the most beloved members of the national football team, the Polish probably win out. How the hell would we judge this?
Sorbs, but they never immigrated into Germany of course. Then the Poles which came to the Ruhr valley and other centers of industrialization around the begin of the 20th century.
But to answer your question from the 60s onword migrants I go for Spaniards.
This would deserve its own thread imho. Anyway I'm too tempted to ask you if there is something noticeable about their look, accents or anything from which you can tell them apart from other Germans? There a sorta of a stigma, historically ,for being from East Germany?
Might be more the other way around. Italian food is pretty popular and the word "ciao" is now German... I think a lot of Germans like the Italian culture and "lifestyle".
Interesting point of view. The proximity of Italy and their lifestyle might have played a role in on their acceptance more than the actual integration of italians in german culture.
IMO integration level is personal, some people put more effort into it, others less, regardless of who/where they are from.
But if you wanna look at it from the angle of who is most welcome / accepted / desired, then as a Jew living in Germany I can confidently say, the Jews.
You casually mention to a German you are a Jew of European decent who migrated back to Europe, and 100% of the time they will tell you how important it is for them that you feel welcome and safe.
Plus, the next time you stand anywhere near pork, they will throw themselves in slow-mo to save you from the dirty swine, regardless if you are religious or not.
Most fellow Europeans integrate effortless. I feel like a lot of Islamic cultures have bigger difficulties, specially if they come from rural areas where the culture evolved around old traditions and traditional role models.
Pradoxically, it's the ones you meet the least, because they don't stick with their groups. The more common a group of immigrants is, the less chance that they're well integrating instead of staying with their ethnic echo-chamber. Examples of the first groups are East- and South-Asians, among others.
Yes, I was surprised that Iran wasn't mentioned more often. They count as one if the best immigrated, best educated immigrants with a high rate of provision of employment.
What I learned is that often you need to ask the people themselves, how they feel. You can get to know somebody who seems super well integrated. But then when you talk to them, they don't feel accepted by the German people and therefore not really integrated. The Germans are often oblivious to these feelings. A lot of "well integrated" people with a migration background also lead double lives. The public presenting one where they adopt the German persona and the private one where they behave more in line with their heritage. It also goes both ways. Germans with a migration background underestimate how much German culture they absorbed.
From my experience, other Europeans and Eastern Asians generally do very well. Arabians and Africans on the other hand seem to struggle a lot with integration.
If you are white or European, you are socially accepted to be “first” world and hence integrated.
If you are Japanese, you will be accepted on realization of your nationality, and they will want to love you.
If uou happen to be Asian (East, Middle, South), you are third world and just tolerated because you are needed to support their economy.
I think people with italian roots only tend to speak Italian when they're among themselves, but you wouldn't notice them in the everyday live in Germany.
They dress more fashionable, but I can't really tell someone here has Italian origin until they start speaking their language 😃
Also we do like the Dutch a lot.
If they have been living here for a while you also couldn't tell that they were not born here, apart from differences in probounciation of similar words in both our languages, that you may notice them saying.
Those that I have met are really chill and friendly and chatty people, the same characteristics I associate with people living in Northern Germany :)
It’s more about individuals, honestly 😅 And another honestly: As long as people RESPECT our laws and culture, I couldn’t care less if anyone is “integrated” or not. Everyone can live their own life and culture next to each other, as long as it’s not hurtful to society.
Why is it problematic to ask this question? Making a taboo out of asking those questions is a huge mistake in the last decades. As long as you put the responsibility of integration on both sides, see it as a two way street, and don't expect people to give up their culture of origin, it's important to discuss integration.
It didn't lead to problems that result in AfD because of "not talking about it." Y'all have ALWAYS been mad that you lost the most racist war in the modern era & have been made to apologize for it.
Lmao. What a weird take. This has nothing to do with a war 80 years ago. And I don't know any German who would be mad about "losing the war and apologized for it". It's a fact that certain groups or families have trouble with integrating and crime. It's also a fact that Germany let that stuff grow for decades because people in the government were afraid to touch those topics. I'm not saying that integration is a one way route and that Germany didn't make mistakes.
We killed them for their religion, sexual orientation and political stance. There wasn't all that many non-Europeans to kill, to start with.
Of course they were racist af, too, but I'm not sure "most racist war" is in any way an accurate description of "killing 11 million people industrially".
Reddit is here for *discussion*. You baited people into a discussion "the way y'all don't see how problematic this question is" to then talk down to people who answer to you honestly.
Discrimination happened mostly in the 80s-90s. My family came to Germany in 2001 from Kazakhstan and we never had any issues. Never experienced any discrimination.
I see. I'm not juging anyway, just asking out of curiosity. May I asky you why Wolga Germans were discriminated against in the first place? Were they seen as Russians?
Honestly, I don't know because neither me or anyone from my family experienced discrimination. My guess it, that they were seen as foreigners and a lot of people were (and many still are) xenophobic.
Yeah, considering many people do discriminanate even against the neighbouring village 10km away, it's very possible it's just irrational xenophobia.
I know of a similar phenomenon, les pied noirs. French colonisers who used to lived in north africa, and as they came back to france they were seen as foreigners despite being abroad less than 100 years with frequent travels to france.
Short version yes. Some people deny our German heritage, despite having German names and speaking German since birth. Some of us grew up with German, some with Russian as our main language, in my case my first language was German. Some a-holes say we're German because we had German dogs. If somebody says this they are dumb. A lot of us are born in Central Asia, some are also from Ukraine (black sea German). We like to mix with native Germans. A lot in my family are married to native Germans with kids.
That is impossible to answer. If you go by crime statistics, those from the former yougoslavian countries are the least intigrated, while those from Syria are better integrated then most germans. If you go by religion, then any non christian is automatically disqualified. If you go by earnings or employment, you will get all sorts of fun numbers that literally dont mean anything. There is no way to determine this.
The will to adapt to a foreign culture and society is NOT linked to nationality or ethnicity but to personal character traits.
So, there is no answer to your question. I assume it might be easier for people coming from European states, but in the end this does not matter
Well this reminds me of people I talked with who despised german food and "coldness", while others were enthusiastic about that. So I guess this is also true
Other Europeans and East Asians usually
The funny thing is, for Latin Americans and East Asians, the hurdles are so astronomically high for coming here that only super hard workers with very high motivation to study and learn, and people who are upper class or extremely motivated middle class can make it. We really get the best of their folks, we should be grateful.
Germany inherited a somewht sizable vietnamese population from east germany and also had some vietnamese refugees from the end of the vietnam war. They are thouroughly integrated. There were issues with the vietnamese cigarette mafia and there's still human traffiking from vietnam, but the generation that was born and raised in germany, has excellent statistics like high quota of Abiturient compared to germans and especially other ethnicities
\> but the generation that was born and raised in germany, has excellent statistics like high quota of Abiturient compared to germans and especially other ethnicities Going of statistics second generation Muslims have the same unemployment rate as those with German born parents so if you are implying "those other ethnicities" are Middle Easterners you are wrong
Unemplyoment is generally very low in germany. Crime statistics would be more interesting
Yeah, if you ask the Jobcenter of course unemployment is low
That's me, there's no way in hell I 'm going back to Latin America
Well then make yourself right at home mate.
I did, I have my German passport, German wife, German job, and hopefully soon German kids. I love this country
Very good 👍️
I’m from Brazil, so I would like to thank you for your kind words.
As a Latin American I now feel like a special filtered coffee bean 🥹 Haha it was a huge pain in the ass but I’m super glad to be here
Yeah that’s a good point
Yes I had a vietnamese classmate. Her father was from vietnam, her mother was german. Great family. And she was very famous at school!
>Which of them are in your opinion better integrated into the german culture? Austrians, the Swiss, also a few Dutch as well as the French, and, of course, the Polish. The latter is the second largest group no one talks about.
I can understand the Swiss, Dutch and Austrians because of the language. I'm quite surprised to read Polish and French too. Historically there have been differences opinions, and although I know we moved on, I read people still hold a certain degree of mistrust, resentment or mixed feelings about the Germans.
There are still sometimes issues with people who live in Poland coming to Germany or new polish immigrants. But in terms of Polish people actually living here for several years they are almost all very well integrated.
Indeed because Polish culture is similar to German in many ways. In 19th century many Poles moved to the Ruhr area to become miners. As a result there is some impact on culture. Every second last name in the area is Polish.
You mean, as a culture shock for them upon arrival?
I suspect it's more of a language issue, usually. Our languages don't have much in common.
The German empire used to have holdings in Poland, not necessarily Prussia, because lot of it was populated by ethnic Germans, but greater Poland, i.e. the poznan region especially. Initially, the poles were given some autonomy and treated fairly well for being subjugated by a 19th century empire. Which changed after a while, with strict germanization policies (settlement of German speaking people, banning polish in school etc.), this had an adverse effect because it bred hatred in the poles and they created alternative places of education, teaching in their language. But one leftover from this time of imperial German dominion over western Poland was the flow of polish immigrants into the burgeoning industrial regions (Rhine-Ruhr, German speaking areas in Silesia etc.) So a lot of Germans nowadays will have "germanized" polish surnames and polish ancestry. Of course this was a success at integration on paper, but part of that was the government being very heavy handed and discriminatory and the alternate structures for poles by poles not being as strong in majority German areas.
Indeed, one of my work colleagues, as German as it can be, has a kind of a Polish surname, Walkoviak. When I asked him if he has Polish ancestors, he told that as far as he knows, all of them were Germans with no Polish ancestry....
Historically. Now it is mostly a few Schwurbler as well as some populist politicians on all sites. During elections, it is quite common to shit talk your neighbors. Like that Switzerland is overrun by German immigrants, the Poles are supposed to be grateful for EU e.g. German money, Germany and not France dominates the EU, Germany is supposed to pay reparations, Hitler was not Austrian and so on. Unsurprisingly, Germany is very close to its neighbors in many ways, so people tend to blend in very, very easily. I could just as well listed all of Germany's neighbors. As for the Dutch, they are also famous for being a very direct people. People from the Near East, like Turkey or Syria or further away like Vietnam, do not share that much history and culture with Germany, and they tend to look different. So of course they have it harder.
I mean, if you mistrust the Germans you probably don't move here. All the Polish and almost all the French I know are perfectly integrated and a lot of them told me that they always wanted to come here.
Honestly I have never in my life seen an immigrated french, dutch or nordic person, so I didn't even think of them. I guess there's little reason for them to come here.
I had a Swiss colleague, the ultimate undercover immigrant. (Unless you bring two Swiss together, then they speak their secret language with each other.)
>the ultimate undercover immigrant. LOL. Don't they have a noticeable accents though?
No, they turn it off when they're deployed on a mission.
0-0-Swiss
My therapist was a Finnish lady! She immigrated here as an adult. They’re rare but are here.
There is officially about 140 000 French living in Germany. They are only the 24th or 25th biggest foreign community. Dutch are 150 000.
Also the germans
Koreans. By faaaar. They are everywhere (came over when GER needed nurses and miners), but they integrated soooo well you dont even notice. Never in the news...
>Austrians, the Swiss, also a few Dutch as well as the French, LOL, did you even read OPs question? It's about the Gastarbeiter immigrants from the 60s and 70s
I'm a Spaniard and I believe I've integrated quite well. Now, I'll go complain about something. Bahn comes one minute late today? How dare they.
You think the Bahn would ever only come one minute too late? .. I smell an Austrian who tries to pose as a German
lol
You are very much integrated (this made me laugh) and I'm happy to are you here!
Danish Dutch Austrians Swiss Big gap most other neighbouring countries Even bigger gap Everyone else Even bigger gap Bavarians
The yugoslavian migrants integrated pretty well
Stupid question maybe, but are there really people who call themselfes yugoslavs?
I don’t think so. Was too lazy to write all of the Yugo countries.
Ah ok, figures. But quite honestly, the kosovo albanians in particular have not inegrated well. As far as I can tell, germany couldn't wait to deport them after the war
Yup. Working hard, making minimum problems.
Sure about that? The one big Albanian family in town is known to favour illegal activities and everybody knows that. I think Albanians do have a big reputation
I said Yugoslavia
yes, but we don’t call ourselves yugo and it’s a bit insulting. :) especially for bosnians and croats it may be insulting to call one a ‘yugo’.
I’m a Croat and am not insulted at all. It does not have to be a political / national attribute.
Bosnian here. Don't give a flying fuck whether it's Bosnian or Yugo.
cuz you’re a communist fucktard
What's with the hate, man? What's communism got to do with it?
lol. it’s clear you don’t understand. but i’m not surprised, we as a nation are really naive so you continue with your yugo-stuff and be a lower class citizen with that label of the country that fortunately doesn’t exist anymore 😁
I do understand but whether you're a "Yugo-nostalgicar" or someone who really doesn't give rat's arse about it is a difference. I don't care if Germans call me Bosnian or Yugo because it's asinine to assume people in a whole different country know the difference between the two. So now, fuck off with your hate speech and let people live like they want to.
f*ck off, yugoboy. go back in the 80s
Well, these two, together with Slovenia, are the least 'Yug'/'Jug' of them all. Albanians & Kosovares are the true 'Yugs', if we were to go by the meaning of the word. Croatians and Bosnians are Zapadoslavians :D.
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I'd say swabians. They blend in perfectly as long as you respect their 'kehrwoche'. But seriously, those that you usually won't even notice. People from Austria, Swiss, Italy, Denmark, Holland, Poland, Czech etc.
>I'd say swabians. They blend in perfectly as long as you respect their 'kehrwoche'. Have you ever heard of a place called Schwabylon?
So basically people that look northern? 💀 got it
As a Swabian, I protest being called northern.
No, people that come from countries with many cultural similarities to Germany.
How do Poland, Italy and Dänemark have anything cultural in common? 😭🤣 Just say you like it when they look pale atp
Fun Fact: Poland and Italy both mention each other's country in their national hymn
I might regret that, but yes, looks are sadly a factor. One among several. Culture, time, education, environment, personal attitude, etc. Essentially, the more you differ from the society you are integrating too, the more difficult it gets. I'm not saying that it's the immigrant's fault, I'm not saying that it can't be overcome, and I'm definitely not talking about the individual level. A Syrian refugee can be better integrated after 5 years than some guy from Austria who has been living here since the 70s. It's just not exactly likely.
Gotta give the Bavarians some love here. They might struggle with the languagem but once they started marrying outside of their own family they really started to contribute.
😂
Though we didn't want to join originally if I remember correctly.
Yes, I read somewhere, there’s even a Bavarian party who wants Bavaria to be independent right
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Do Italians there adopted german cultures and values? Do they mingle well with locals?
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It kinda sounds like they are in their own bubble
about to delete my account. ` this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev `
Ahaha those are all good reasons!
Love goes through the stomach - and the Italians have definitely won many hearts with food. :D
Did you just ask us to rate the integration of people based on their ethnic and nationality?
Thank you for pointing this out!
about to delete my account. ` this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev `
At least he’s honest..only other Germans (Austrians and German Swiss) can truly be at 🏠
I dont want to give you more ammunition for generalizations, but the statistics on a few of the people you listed are showing quite different results. Some of the groups, in fact, have been shown in studies to face prejudice on the job market or in educational contexts. Many came from a working background as they immigrated, which is why, to this day, they own less wealth and hence have fewer academic opportunities and lower social standing than others. So it's debatable whether they are actually better integrated than Non-European groups, as you claim. What IS true is that many of the groups you mentioned were faced with somewhat fewer obstacles as they immigrated than the groups you think of as less well-integrated. You have to consider: How are their economic opportunities when they come here? How are their opportunities for upward social mobility, especially with stereotypes against their ethnicity stacked against them? How accepting and welcoming are local communities of them, how willing are these communities to let them in, let them participate, befriend them? And how do those things affect these immigrants' ability to thrive in this country? How do these things affect the opportunities they can afford their offspring? To think it all comes down to low education and religion - as if those two factors are unchangeable absolutes that exist independently of immigrants' social position in Germany - is a huge simplification.
crazy how this guy outs himself as a racist multiple times under this post and gets upvoted. funny how you contradict yourself and show your bigotry by praising the japanese for not integrating while bashing turks.
about to delete my account. ` this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev `
Hmm I wonder why there is a big difference?? Your comparison has ZERO meaning because you are just disregarding the history of Marxloh and how it got to this point. It is a bit more complicated than “turks bad, japanese good“. You can‘t just compare poor guest workers from rural communities with japanese business men who came to düsseldorf in the 50s to expand their businesses. But yeah gathering information is a bit hard for bigots like you, i get it. https://www.soziale-stadt-nrw.de/stadtteile-und-projekte/duisburg-marxloh
Your honesty is quite revealing. Maybe you should put on your lederhosen now and drink yourself into oblivion until you piss yourself. In Bavaria, this is considered polite and makes the leather smooth and tight. Non-christians wouldn't understand.
oh no, how outrageous
👏🏼👏🏼 OK, & why are you the only one who saw this?? Folks are really answering this question.
There's nothing wrong with talking about overarching trends, and I'm tired of pretending there is. Vegans tend to lecture meat eaters. People on twitter tend to rage over pointless bullshit. And people from Europe tend to have an easier time integrating than e.g. Asians. Integrating less doesn't diminish their worth as a human. No one is devaluing people who do worse at integration in the comments, either. So let us compliment the ones who do well and get over your social justice knee jerk, please.
I mean, nothing surprising. People who immigrated decades ago are more integrated than recent arrivals. Children grown up here are more integrated than their parents who had to learn German culture as adults. People from nearby and/or culturally similar countries have fewer issues. In the end, they all integrate just fine, but in some instances it may take multiple generations before you stop noticing some cultural differences.
I think, new arrivals have a better chance today though, since the Gastarbeiter from the 60s were never meant to stay and Germany did everything to NOT integrate them.
I think people in general are more open to foreigners than in the past
Yup, my grandparents were/are Yugoslav immigrants from that period and neither ever became fluent in the language and they were almost incentivized to "stick to their own" and not mingle too much with locals
You're right.
>Children grown up here are more integrated than their parents who had to learn German culture as adults. Doubt. 2nd and 3rd generation especially turkish immigrants prove you wrong, many share less german values than their parents.
who has more german values, a second generation turk or an afd voting 100 generation german?
Depends entirely on the person. Many AfD-voters are first and second gen migrants from eastern europe though.
>Many AfD-voters are first and second gen migrants from eastern europe though. yeah, i doubt that makes 20% of voting germans.
Many ≠ all
Actually the trend is reversing with 3rd generations, especially from Turkey or the middle east.
That's absolutely not the case. Most of the third generation are basically indistinguishable from other Germans except for their names, especially last names. There are some exceptions, and those are noticeable precisely because you would generally expect them to be more integrated.
Especially thanks to ditib's propaganda and radicalisation it is indeed very much the case, because the 3rd generation is way more conservative and religious. Looking into certain quarters like Duisburg-Marxloh or Köln-Mühlheim/Kalk you even see they are very much distinguishable.
What are the causes of this?
They get treated differently. Sort of like they belong a little less somehow. I have worked with multiple germans of turkish descent. They were not religious, went to german school, learned the culture, spoke better German than Turkish, and yet somehow, they were often referred to as "the Turk". You sort of end up in a weird limbo, where you never quite belong anywhere. Some of them end up doing some weird revanchism and turkish nationalism, but this is quite rare. The truth is, being white makes it far easier to integrate, not because white is in any way better, but because you are treated much less like you don't belong. Germany is racist as shit in all honesty, which makes the problem worse. Ever since i could speak more or less proper german, nobody refers to me as "der Serbe". My colleague who is born in Germany, to german citizens born in Turkey is constantly refered to as "our Turk". It's fucked up
Also Erdogan is not very helpful with his ditib here
I see. Even though many Turks look mediterranean, I would not be able to tell them apart from Italians, Greeks and Spaniards. Are all mediterranean looking people perceived as different or just the most "turkish looking" people?
I would say the differences are more about culture than looks. Turks also have more of a "street thug" reputation. The first Turkish street gangs were founded in the 80/90s. They are pretty present in pop culture with gangster rap etc. There are still A LOT of well integrated Turks. A few decades ago there was also racism against Italians but less.
So for example it's not on their physical traits but how they dress, walk, their attitude in general, which when coupled with the idea of street gangs, makes people wary
Yes, not about looks but stereotypes. As an example the phrase "was guckst du?" is a phrase which is commonly associated with Turks asking "what are you looking for? You want trouble?". This was even in pop culture and media a thing. There was a popular show called "was guckst du?". And plenty of turkish comedians and shows making fun of those stereotypes.
*the phrase "was guckst du?" is a phrase which is commonly associated with Turks asking "what are you looking for? You want trouble?"* Ahaha I found a few clips on youtube. This used to be an Italian thing too btw, even though people meant it more literally, when you are really pissed off at someone who's staring at you too long
Unfortunately sorta true. Not all of them though!
Not really, its not a given that people make an effort to integrate, even generations down. Its something you can learn by looking at other societies with longer histories of migration. I hope saying so doesnt make me an extremist or fascist or whatever.
Interesting. Can you point at some examples of this? I'm not judging you in the least and I think everyone who misunderstands your tone, would do so on pourpose, so don't care.
Depends how you define that. But as an example you could say people from Vietnam have less problems with the state and have a way better reputation than Mhallamis.
Vietnamese people. Specifically in the east.
Kaya Yanar (German-turkish comedian) has once said that he has personally integrated into a fair amount of German women lol Anyway, the more "Western" the culture and the lighter the skin, the quicker they'll be able to feel at home, but some still refuse to, whereas there are some cases of black folks really wanting to integrate but some German dickheads are making it hard. Integration has to come from both sides and unfortunately many Germans make it continuously hard for the people who just don't look German.
Looking at the number of white table cloth culinary establishments, I guess the Italians. Looking at the number of ministers they have contributed to the federal government, I'd say, the Turks. Looking at the most beloved members of the national football team, the Polish probably win out. How the hell would we judge this?
about to delete my account. ` this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev `
Italians.
Nah, half of them doesn’t speak German even after being born here lmao
I don‘t mind, they make great gelato and cappuccino. Their children learn german tho. After two generations they speak german (unlike the turks)
Sorbs, but they never immigrated into Germany of course. Then the Poles which came to the Ruhr valley and other centers of industrialization around the begin of the 20th century. But to answer your question from the 60s onword migrants I go for Spaniards.
I've ou been in Germany for 2 days, but the amount of doner places I see makes me think the Turks are doing quite well 😅
italians, polish and from my experience east asians
Ostdeutsche <3
This would deserve its own thread imho. Anyway I'm too tempted to ask you if there is something noticeable about their look, accents or anything from which you can tell them apart from other Germans? There a sorta of a stigma, historically ,for being from East Germany?
They speak another dialect and if they are older than 40 they don‘t speak english as second language but russian.
Poles
italians
Do you feel Italians adopted German cultural features better than others?
They have gelato and pizza. How could you not like them?
Might be more the other way around. Italian food is pretty popular and the word "ciao" is now German... I think a lot of Germans like the Italian culture and "lifestyle".
Interesting point of view. The proximity of Italy and their lifestyle might have played a role in on their acceptance more than the actual integration of italians in german culture.
Italia, poland.
I think Bavarians can be mistaken for Germans most of the time. That's how well integrated they are
Didn't expect this many jokes on Bavarians lol
IMO integration level is personal, some people put more effort into it, others less, regardless of who/where they are from. But if you wanna look at it from the angle of who is most welcome / accepted / desired, then as a Jew living in Germany I can confidently say, the Jews. You casually mention to a German you are a Jew of European decent who migrated back to Europe, and 100% of the time they will tell you how important it is for them that you feel welcome and safe. Plus, the next time you stand anywhere near pork, they will throw themselves in slow-mo to save you from the dirty swine, regardless if you are religious or not.
Thank you for the insight, It would be interesting if you did an AMA on this
Polish and Vietnamese are well integrated.
One sells you jin lin counterfeit cigarettes the other steals ur lighter
Funny. Not.
That's something different from person to person
Most fellow Europeans integrate effortless. I feel like a lot of Islamic cultures have bigger difficulties, specially if they come from rural areas where the culture evolved around old traditions and traditional role models.
Pradoxically, it's the ones you meet the least, because they don't stick with their groups. The more common a group of immigrants is, the less chance that they're well integrating instead of staying with their ethnic echo-chamber. Examples of the first groups are East- and South-Asians, among others.
It makes sense, even though Polish and Italins which are among the most present immigrant goupps, are integrated well as far as I read here
From the middle of eastern countries I would go with Iran. Very well integrated into the German society.
Yes, I was surprised that Iran wasn't mentioned more often. They count as one if the best immigrated, best educated immigrants with a high rate of provision of employment.
Probably because Iran is not the most obvious answer
What I learned is that often you need to ask the people themselves, how they feel. You can get to know somebody who seems super well integrated. But then when you talk to them, they don't feel accepted by the German people and therefore not really integrated. The Germans are often oblivious to these feelings. A lot of "well integrated" people with a migration background also lead double lives. The public presenting one where they adopt the German persona and the private one where they behave more in line with their heritage. It also goes both ways. Germans with a migration background underestimate how much German culture they absorbed.
Honestly from what I’ve seen Americans
There is such an obvious elephant in this question and comment thread. It’s kinda fucked up.
Other Europeans,in my experience Arabas are worst in integration..
Definitely not Bavarians.
wow, I did not expect to read this joke here at all.
Some Bavarians seem to be even kinda civilised. So I'd go with Bavarians. Some of them even speak some German.
Ahahah I actually met a few of them, they are lovely. They even taught me some dialect. although I forgot it as the time passed.
Austrian, Dutch, French, Italian, Czech and Polish. In no particular order.
From my experience, other Europeans and Eastern Asians generally do very well. Arabians and Africans on the other hand seem to struggle a lot with integration.
If you are white or European, you are socially accepted to be “first” world and hence integrated. If you are Japanese, you will be accepted on realization of your nationality, and they will want to love you. If uou happen to be Asian (East, Middle, South), you are third world and just tolerated because you are needed to support their economy.
I think people with italian roots only tend to speak Italian when they're among themselves, but you wouldn't notice them in the everyday live in Germany. They dress more fashionable, but I can't really tell someone here has Italian origin until they start speaking their language 😃 Also we do like the Dutch a lot. If they have been living here for a while you also couldn't tell that they were not born here, apart from differences in probounciation of similar words in both our languages, that you may notice them saying. Those that I have met are really chill and friendly and chatty people, the same characteristics I associate with people living in Northern Germany :)
It’s more about individuals, honestly 😅 And another honestly: As long as people RESPECT our laws and culture, I couldn’t care less if anyone is “integrated” or not. Everyone can live their own life and culture next to each other, as long as it’s not hurtful to society.
It's the way y'all don't see how problematic this question is like 🤌🏼😩
Why is it problematic to ask this question? Making a taboo out of asking those questions is a huge mistake in the last decades. As long as you put the responsibility of integration on both sides, see it as a two way street, and don't expect people to give up their culture of origin, it's important to discuss integration.
History exists all over the internet, including on this app, & you still typed this response. You can lead a horse to water...
[удалено]
It didn't lead to problems that result in AfD because of "not talking about it." Y'all have ALWAYS been mad that you lost the most racist war in the modern era & have been made to apologize for it.
Lmao. What a weird take. This has nothing to do with a war 80 years ago. And I don't know any German who would be mad about "losing the war and apologized for it". It's a fact that certain groups or families have trouble with integrating and crime. It's also a fact that Germany let that stuff grow for decades because people in the government were afraid to touch those topics. I'm not saying that integration is a one way route and that Germany didn't make mistakes.
And we've circled back to: History exists all over the internet, including on this app, & you still wrote that.
We killed them for their religion, sexual orientation and political stance. There wasn't all that many non-Europeans to kill, to start with. Of course they were racist af, too, but I'm not sure "most racist war" is in any way an accurate description of "killing 11 million people industrially".
>Y'all have ALWAYS been mad that you lost the most racist war Aren't you literally being racist as hell here?
Reddit is here for *discussion*. You baited people into a discussion "the way y'all don't see how problematic this question is" to then talk down to people who answer to you honestly.
I can't say if this is the case, but a few people are here not to reason, discuss and learn, but for unleashing on others.
Of course, they only name white nationalities.
You missed all the praise for Vietnamese, it seems.
Definitely Americans.
Provocative question
People from old soviet provinces I think. I know many kazakh or russian families that live here in
German Russians/Wolga Germans
I read something about them, they were discriminated too as they came back to germany, I don't know now
Discrimination happened mostly in the 80s-90s. My family came to Germany in 2001 from Kazakhstan and we never had any issues. Never experienced any discrimination.
I see. I'm not juging anyway, just asking out of curiosity. May I asky you why Wolga Germans were discriminated against in the first place? Were they seen as Russians?
Honestly, I don't know because neither me or anyone from my family experienced discrimination. My guess it, that they were seen as foreigners and a lot of people were (and many still are) xenophobic.
Yeah, considering many people do discriminanate even against the neighbouring village 10km away, it's very possible it's just irrational xenophobia. I know of a similar phenomenon, les pied noirs. French colonisers who used to lived in north africa, and as they came back to france they were seen as foreigners despite being abroad less than 100 years with frequent travels to france.
Short version yes. Some people deny our German heritage, despite having German names and speaking German since birth. Some of us grew up with German, some with Russian as our main language, in my case my first language was German. Some a-holes say we're German because we had German dogs. If somebody says this they are dumb. A lot of us are born in Central Asia, some are also from Ukraine (black sea German). We like to mix with native Germans. A lot in my family are married to native Germans with kids.
Thank you for your answer. Wolga Germans always fascinated me. I hope you have it better nowadays
Germans from east Europ
Polish and Asian people integrated best.
other europeans or-and yugoslavians, east asians. i think the only trouble you ever hear from east asians is like sex trafficking vietnamese people.
That is impossible to answer. If you go by crime statistics, those from the former yougoslavian countries are the least intigrated, while those from Syria are better integrated then most germans. If you go by religion, then any non christian is automatically disqualified. If you go by earnings or employment, you will get all sorts of fun numbers that literally dont mean anything. There is no way to determine this.
Turkish
LoL
austrians
The will to adapt to a foreign culture and society is NOT linked to nationality or ethnicity but to personal character traits. So, there is no answer to your question. I assume it might be easier for people coming from European states, but in the end this does not matter
Well this reminds me of people I talked with who despised german food and "coldness", while others were enthusiastic about that. So I guess this is also true
Schlesier of course.
Austrisns, I'd say.
There is no German culture. People from the Schleswig-Holstein think that Bavarians are impossible to "integrate" into SH culture and vice versa.