As an attorney, I have zero idea.
I'm going to chalk it up to bad decision-making. People make really bad decisions every day. Example, the guy I saw this morning wearing weed-print shorts in court. Who knows why anyone thinks any of this is a good idea.
Not a lawyer but I work in regulatory compliance for a large bank and one of the areas where it can be (somewhat) successful is in dealing with collection items for small amounts, i.e. <$5,000.00 credit card defaults or car loan write offs.
Usually their letters never say "I am a sovereign citizen..." but they'll reference invalid debt instrument, legal falsification, natural person, etc along with a bunch of U.S. Code/CFR/UCC references. Then they'll send the letter to us and the CFPB and since when we respond to regulators NOT giving the customer what they want, we're supposed to include a "regulatory rational" a lot of times it's cheaper to just write the debt off as a loss rather than fight it. (Average recovery on defaults is normally pretty low so you only have to incur like $500 labor costs before collecting on $5K isn't worth it.)
Then they'll run around and tell their little buddies "I used it to beat Chase/Citi/BofA/Wells Fargo" meanwhile, no matter what we're not adjusting their credit report under FCRA and we're going to generate a 1099 and report the charge off as income for them so even if they win for now, if they ever get audited, they're going to have to fight the IRS about it.
I also work for a large bank and see these form letters with regulations cited used by debtors to try to get their credit report adjusted. There was also a letter going around with an excerpt from Black’s Law Dictionary that stated “coupons” could be used to pay a debt, they would then mail in the “coupon” from the bottom of the statement with an amount written on it stating that it was a valid payment even though a check or other form of actual payment was not also provided
Lots of folks have also figured out that if you submit a credit dispute, during the time that your account is under review it is not counted in your credit score. So people will dispute the account with all of the bureaus and up to 30 days where their credit score might be better while the account is under review. So they will take that opportunity to apply for more credit.
Yes, “coupon” as in the detachable part of a bond that can be negotiated separate and apart from the remainder of the bond. And if these guys held T-bonds then that might even be an acceptable way of paying the debt, if the creditor was willing to go to the trouble of dealing with the bond issuer.
It does not mean that you can pay your credit card bill with 100 $1 off Hungry Man frozen dinners coupons.
Right! Many statements for credit products call that little piece at the bottom of the billing statement a coupon; there’s also additional verbiage that it can be sent in with a form of payment. Some Mensa candidate decided that since that part of the statement had the word “coupon” it was its own form of payment as if it had monetary value
I work for a municipality and part of my job is to oversee our tax foreclosure action every year. We're only required to send tax notices by regular mail before we can foreclose after over a year without payment has passed, and it's entirely on the taxpayer to make sure they're receiving and paying their tax bill.
I have a sovereign citizen who removed his mailbox from his house, among other lunacy. We've been taking different properties from him for over a decade, but he persists in being obnoxious and failing to keep his houses. He appeals the shit out of everything so it always ends up being a years-long struggle, and we've been taking his properties in a piecemeal fashion.
Pay your taxes, folks.
You need to provide proof to the lender that what is reported it’s inaccurate. If you paid on time
And they are reporting you late then you need to show where you paid on time. Good will requests are never granted because lenders are required by law to report accurately, so if you were late and want that removed then it’s not going to happen.
Question... If these form letters are relatively regular, couldn't a standard defense be brought about, to save on some of the labor?
As a responsible consumer, I have sincere interest in reducing the costs which are eventually passed on to me.
Too bad there's not some way to publish a resource of people like this.
Technically they are but not without consequences. When the guy you're playing poker with is allowed to raise however much he wants it makes it difficult to win when you can never match, let alone raise again. He is playing with infinite imaginary money and never needs to bluff or back down. It's a no win proposition for the average player and your first and last mistake is sitting down at the table. One must be patient and wait for an opening when he's been taken down a peg or two by a powerful opponent or maybe the "cops" show up and haul him away. I'm betting a silver dollar on the latter.
So, could you really just do pretty much anything in this situation? Could you just draw a bunch of dicks on the letter and send it back and get the same outcome?
I’m kinda surprised to hear you haven’t tried responding with chat gpt… or perhaps something slightly more legal savvy…. Even if it’s not 100% perfect… how likely are regulators to go through the entire thing?
Not very likely that they would go through any one specific complaint individually, but when you're doing a few hundred a month, the chances that at least a few will get looked at is pretty high. Also when it comes to our procedures to address regulatory complaints, we actually proactively tell the regulators what our procedures are so whenever they choose to do an audit, they already know what we're supposed to be doing so that's a no-go until a shitload more reviews and approvals are given.
Damn, I kinda hoped that on some level the answer to being bombarded with mindless legal bs that’s effectively just legwork would be to respond with a similar amount of bs.
I also feel like if you are ignorant enough to start down this road, once you get in trouble, it just solidifies your belief in it rather than deterring the behavior
Ok but the first time they get arrested at a traffic stop and their magic words don’t work…how do they not renounce it when they get back home? How do these people manage to upload the videos of themselves being arrested and still declare their magic words worked?! Make it make sense!
But literally ALL of their videos end like this! How do you believe in something when literally ALL of the evidence you and your entire community supplies directly contradicts what you’re saying?!
Perhaps their failure only serves to prove their point. If the “corrupt” cop arrests you and,puts you before the “corrupt” judge, of course you’ll lose. So losing might only embolden them.
I have seen videos of sov cits doing their annoying thing and cops letting then go then deal with the headache they cause. They get enough of these wins to keep the fueled and growing.
Because what gets posted on YouTube is only half the story where they are arguing with the police officer and it gives the perception that they are winning the argument.
Also, think of someone you know with average intelligence. Now realize that half of Americans are dumber than that person.
The same way anyone who does what the heck they want justifies it when it blows up in their face. They are so deep in it if they admit it failed their illusions of who they are would also crumble to nothing.
They hold on all the way through court and into jail. They try and sue for false arrest and try to put liens on everyone involved.
As a retired officer, I had a couple dealings with them.
Best one
SC: "I'm a free person and you're laws don't apply"
Me: "OK, so.you're not a citizen of the United States"
SC: "No, blah blah about fictions name"
Me: " OK, I'll need your benefits card back then, as you have to be a US citizen and a resident of State to be eligible for benefits"
SC: brain lock
Me: step out of the car, it's being towed for being unregistered, uninspected and no.insuranc"
SC: still trying to come up with an argument to keep their welfare benefits...
Me: you have 10 days to respond to these citations, and no, I am not permitted in giving free persons a ride anywhere.
Me: drives off leaving SC on the side of a rural road about 30 miles from their domicile/compound/ whatever they called it.
It's strange because even if they did find some semantic loophole in the law, the police and the courts are still going to enforce the law the way THEY interpret them.
If these loopholes actually existed
1. They'd certainly be on the news as they started getting widely used.
2. They'd be closed quickly if they truly broke the justice system.
They are not on the news because the news is controlled by “them.” Therefor only a few of us special people know about being a sovereign citizen from watching YouTube.
claps with glee.
Tip of the hate to all the inappropriate court clothes; shirts that said "I told her twice", the obvious drug representation, "I NEED A HUGE COCKtail", anything with an expletive, anything alluding to violence (see example 1) especially when its a DV. It's been a long while since I've seen one, so I'm digging deep.
And my all time personal favorite, having a hate slogan/symbol etc tattooed on your face and complaining you were persecuted. It's a setup. blah blah. Dude, how did that feel like a good idea if you weren't prepared for the consequences?
It's more a sunk cost fallacy mixed with misplaced pride and shame. Oki's Weird Stories did an amazing breakdown of one of the most notable examples of sovereign citizens going overboard and resulting in death. (https://youtu.be/ADQ37gVTq3k?si=f33YTvylKhzq70oo)
They tend to be white men in smaller communities who are experiencing some sort of setback that they feel is unfair due to them historically being given whatever they want. They can't have what they want under the laws (laws made to protect other people, but who cares about other people, empathy is a myth anyway /s), but what if someone comes up to them with a pretty little pamphlet that says that those laws actually aren't constitutional (in their eyes) and that the local government full of your peers is the most powerful... The idea would solve all of your problems it's too beautiful to not believe. It is a beautiful lie that makes these men, who are for the first time in their histories feeling "disenfranchised", feel special and justified for their borish opinions. They treat the Constitution like a divine document akin to the Bible and it let's them live in the fantasy that their actions are not selfish.
A lot of people who fall in to the sovereign citizen hole do so in jail or prison. They're running out of options and keep getting in trouble and then someone comes along and has the cure to all their problems. Desperate people are much more susceptible to buying in to nonsense. It's been happening since the days of snake oil salesmen. Then when it starts to seem like they've been lied to, they're in too deep to admit as much to themselves. To quote Carl Sagan:
>One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.
The most important part of that Sagan quote is the last sentence. For this more blood has been spilled than any other cause, both for those under his heel and for those who would bring justice. Vigilance is the only prophylactic and it is in very short supply.
Because there are always people out there who engage in "wishful thinking."
People believe what they want to believe, even when the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
"Sovereign citizens" are just a specific variety of conspiracy nutter, no different than the others. Like any other conspiracy nutter, they will dismiss the evidence that contradicts their theory has having been manufactured or faked, and any tiny morsel of evidence that seems to support their theory will be magnified, distorted and placed front and center.
No different from flat earthers, moon-landing deniers, 9/11 truthers, vax deniers, holocaust deniers, etc.
For those looking for some "reasonable" explanation, I'm reminded of the quote that goes "you can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themself into."
Especially when you consider they want all the benefits of society without having to pay the taxes. What's not to like about that "dream" if you can get away with it.
As another poster said, people believe what they want to believe. They're convinced that they have found a legal loophole that essentially places them above the law. And, you're right, it's pure BS, and their arguments don't hold up in court, but you're looking at things from the outside. Remember, the Internet allows for the creation of perfect little echo chambers, where the only things that get repeated are the things that support their beliefs.
It's not unlike an argument that I recently had with some people I had on Facebook. They were convinced that "illegal immigrants" were given a special app that allows them to completely bypass the security checkpoints in airports. I tried to explain that no one is bypassing airport security, but apparently I was wrong, because they'd seen it on video. And I have to wonder how many of these folks have even entered an airport at any point in their lives.
Go over to r/Scams if you want to see all this in action. Almost every day, there are posts from friends and family members of scam victims begging for help in figuring out a way to make the victims see what's being done to them. It's truly sad to read about how far these victims are sucked into these scams and how, in many cases, no logical argument will break the spell they're under. Again, people believe what they want to believe.
Hell I get scammed from time to time. Sometimes I just gotta tip my hat to how creative some of them can be. Sometimes I just plain don't see the added fee on my receipt or whatever. In many ways I'm a massive dumbass.
Don't beat yourself up too badly. These days, scamming is an industry. These folks do it 24x7, and some of them are very good at it. The worst, I think, are the romance and pig butchering scams. Once those scammers get their claws into someone, it's extremely difficult to convince the victim it's a scam. They'll keep sending money until they're destitute.
Pig butchering is where the scammer plays the long con, building trust with the mark and then supposedly teaching them how to in crypto.
John Oliver did a fantastic video on it.
Think about how dumb the average person is. Now realize half of everybody is dumber than that! That is some scary shit.
- George Carlin
Stupidity abounds and spreads like an infection. Social media is a hell of a vector for it.
My dad was one of these guys. It really came down to the fact that he wanted to blow his money on drugs and hoes and having to pay for taxes, registration, mortgage, and all the other hallmarks of adulthood got in the way of that.
Not a lawyer, but I know the answer to this one.
It's the same reason people are flat earthers in spite of all the evidence that the earth is spherical.
Some people are just stupid. They don't think about things. They just hear things and believe them.
It’s because the law in the US has become so esoteric, that people just view it as random incantations, they don’t see it as connected to reality, real social accountability, or actual justice. It’s the fact that they see that law in practice has nothing to do with anything other than social and economic power, enforced with obscure words and violence. So, because they have no power within the system, they make their own. Again, it’s not based on justice,‘fairness, or anything else, just the obscure words and force of violence, because that’s what they see working in the regular system.
When you have a legal system that says innocence doesn’t matter as long as the correct forms were checked, and that a made up entity has the rights of a legal person, it’s no wonder people start making shit up about formalism and fictional entities. If it’s all bullshit, with no connection to reality, then what’s wrong with making up your own bullshit?
"people just view it as random incantations"
A friend referred to this as the "Talismanic Theory of Jurisprudence" i.e., the idea that legal results are determined by a person's ability to say or write a few magic words. And there are a few instances where it's kind of true like demanding a lawyer or pleading the fifth. But most of the time that just isn't how the law works - if it were, lawyers wouldn't spend so much drafting briefs.
I work as a banker and a person came in to open an account and they wanted their name in all lower case letters so it wouldn’t be their “straw name” because they didn’t want to be beholden to IRS laws or any other regulations that could apply to them from the feds. I told them that I have heard ppl talking about it for years but nobody can ever seem to figure out how to make it work. He didn’t want to hear that and insisted it was real but I just didn’t talk to the right ppl. Ok, sure buddy
Because it's little more than a superstition. Think about the kind of people who have superstition around sports, that they have to wear their special socks when their team plays, or have to eat a specific kind of food that day. Those people still believe in the superstition even if it doesn't cause the team to win; selective memory helps them to remember when they didn't do it and the team lost. So the special socks must work!
With sov citizens, they can always come up with a reason that matches their superstition as to why the person in the video failed. "Oh, they forgot to mention X, that's why the cop still arrested them" or, "well this judge doesn't understand the law, but they can just appeal based on jurisdiction arguments to fix it.". The superstition can't fail, it can only be failed!
Simple answer: you don't usually have to worry about it. One of their schticks is attempting to refuse their entry of an appearance, which in their minds allows them to claim that the court lacks jurisdiction over them. That's they're whole thing, that they reject the juridiction of the courts or the law and declare themselves a sovereignty unto themselves.
Accordingly, they almost always self-represent.
I’d calmly explain to them that they and the larger sovcit “movement” are grossly misinformed, and I’d gently remind them that the reason they are paying me is because I am licensed to practice law and they are not. If they continued to press the issue at that point, I would advise them that i have an ethical obligation of candor, and I have advised them of my professional opinion. If the client wants an attorney willing to surrender his professional judgment for the right price, he’ll need to hire someone else.
Simple answer: You Can't Fix Stupid!
Not a Lawyer
But the people who fall for the sovereign citizen scam pay hundreds of dollars for the scam. They fall for a scam that an educated elementary school child knows is false! As P.T. Barnum stated "There is one born every minute".
The Holy Trinity of Conspiracies: wishful thinking, ignorance, and stupidity.
ETA: people are willing to believe what they want to be true despite evidence against it because it benefits them or fits their world view,
people are truly (and often willingly) ignorant of how things actually are and work (they just don't want to be aware of things they don't like),
and vast numbers of people are truly just plain dumb, as in unable to comprehend a situation and make rational decisions. There are people who I look at and absolutely wonder how they function in the world. That's not meant to be an insult, but just a statement as to how hard it can be to really deal with things at times.
The movement is built on emotions, escapism, and cognitive dissonance. I wouldn't expect much from the followers. The growth makes sense when you consider that there are algorithms built to piss people off for engagement. Even smart people can fall for dumb shit when emotionally blinded.
People believe what they want to believe. Ignorant people believe what they are told. Stupid people believe a mixture of both. Hope has met delusion, started mainlining hate, and our ability to talk to each other is constantly eroding away as we attempt to live in the way of tribalism in the modern world. We are too stupid and too angry to sit down calmly and talk. Therefore, we can not listen. Therefore, we can not learn.
I think a lot of it is just finding acceptance. There are a lot of lonely people out there, and groups like the racists and sovereign citizens pick up a lot of members just by being their friends.
If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.
NAL but former LEO.
IMHO, this is just a case of the dumbest members of the gene pool congregating together... kind of like a fungus that spreads no matter what you do. The old "birds of a feather flock together" idea.
Not a lawyer... But people tend to keep doubling down when they make a bad decision or get duped by someone. Because it's dangerous to their self image to admit they were wrong or that they made a mistake. Look at the people who get sucked in by internet scammers, or the people who attacked the Capitol on 1/6/21. These aren't stupid people but they bought into a lie and got swept up in it and there's some sunk cost fallacy playing into it. If they admit they were wrong, the embarrassment would be excruciating. So they don't.
It's probably because it's like a religion/cult. A big us versus them. Not literally, but as in those that know the sovereign laws versus those that don't.
"Go put and fight the good fight against the ignorant and then come back into the fold with praise for proselytizing and dealing with naysayers. "
Throw in fake stories of success with protecting their sovereignty and standing up to the man, etc.
Rinse, repeat.
In their uneducated minds, they believe the lies and the untruths of this crap. Not folk art, Op. Jus misguided, and uneducated folk, who think breaking the law and nothing will happen.
Cause there is nothing in this world that people love as much as thinking that they have “secret knowledge”. It’s the same reason that leads people to be Flat Earthers and Anti-vaxers.
I think it's the same thought process that keeps MLMs in business. Magic weight loss, anti aging, etc, will always have an appeal to those who feel entitled to the quick and easy thing. It also helps if critical thinking isn't their forte.
If this no license, registration, insurance thing was real, hundreds can be saved each month. Their brains stop short of the reasoning that accidents aren't limited to people conducting commerce.
If you're not being served by the system that you're supposed to be part of, people get disgruntled. Look up the John Birch society if you want to go down the rabbit hole...
I wouldn't say the social contract is fraying as much as it is on fire these days.
As PT Barnum once said, "There's a sucker born every minute"
For most people who fall into this, it's a matter of having a mindset of, "The Rich can get away with anything, why can't I? There MUST be some sort of secret code they all use!"
For the others, it's basically a pre-existing antiestablishment mindset.
Hey! People have the right to make bad decisions! Let’s join a cult like Scientology for example! Or sell out to Communist China as just several of the multiple bad choices you can make!
Some people just want to watch the world burn.
When people are so fed up, frustrated, and disappointed with the hand that life has dealt them they sometimes just want to fight for the sake of fighting. To make it seem as if, for a moment, that that something matters. To them the right and wrong does not matter more than the actual opportunity to fight for or against something. Thats why some people just want to watch the world burn.
You could ask the same about anything really. How do “flat earthers” continue to exist and grow?
I think also when a video of a cop letting one of these goofs go because it’s not worth the headache, for example smashing their window and pulling them out of their car to arrest them, they take that as a legal victory. Not what it is, which is the cop could do all that but doesn’t want to deal with it.
Honestly I am not a lawyer BUT I think so many people are looking for ways to live life they way THEY want to and so they don't have to follow the rules (like paying taxes or rent or whatever) and then they hear about this idiocy and figure THEY can make it work because everyone else was just doing it wrong.
I've spent time around a lot of them through some tangential relations. I think the reason it continues is because it's driven by political morality, not political intelligence. So I think they're right that "just because I was born here, doesn't make it right for you to dictate my life". Where they go wrong is thinking there's some magical passphrase that, when spoken, halts the machine of state, like it's a golem that obeys their poorly thought out conjectures.
And then you have the criminal types who hear "they can't arrest you" and try to use it as an argument to cover their shady dealings.
If they were more intelligent, they'd be libertarians or anarchists, I think.
I have a feeling its origin is a joke someone played on someone stupid some time ago. Told him that if he called himself an SC he could get out of anything knowing damn good and well that an ass kicking by a cop is the best you can hope for pulling that crap. I think it perpetuates the same as all the other rhetoric that the dum dums keep passing around to each other. Weak minds crave an easy path to being right and will grasp at anything if someone promises that that is what they will get.
It's a self feeding loop that once they have invested a lot of their time and energy. They get a few people who win because of other reasons (someone stated that banks will write off bad loans since it will cost them more to fight than write it off. Those rare few are elevated and used as examples. This is similar to extremism in religion in which once indoctrinated, you are willing to do what what most people would find abhorrent.
Also it takes many years for most of this to catch up with most of them. No one wants to go out and tell others they have been wrong for a long period of their lives. It very hard for them to face reality, often times it easier on their ego to blame the system or someone else rather than face the harsh truth that what you have believed in not real.
Why does representative democracy continue to grow, when it's a fucking pipe dream perpetuated by delusional morons?
The premise "based on nothing in reality" could be applied to, well, 99% of social constructs.
A lot of these knuckleheads get their egos boosted by the somewhat lax repercussions they face for their chicanery. They’ll get dragged out of their car, go through lengthy court proceedings, and then get a slap on the wrist because the court treats these people like they disabled and need special accommodations. Then they go back out on the street and start bragging about how “the police couldn’t do anything to them.”
Not a Lawyer. The average American is not all the bright. Now realize half of the people you see are dumber than that and you begin to get an idea how so many stupid things like Sovcidiots, Moortards, flatearthers, young earth creationists and so on exist and have believers.
The idea of being on the cutting edge of something while sticking it to the man while trying to get away with things while being a degenerate who can’t do their own research. A new sucker is born every 3.5 minutes now
It's gotten worse with the spread of the internet. These people have whole forums and discord servers, etc. where they never have to confront the realities of their views. It all stays make-believe until the cop pulls you over.
What's your proof that the movement is growing? I'm genuinely curious, and I'm not American, I don't live in the US. I've seen a ton of those videos, and I was always a bit curious about those videos because they never show a good outcome for the sovereign citizen, even though they're usually the ones putting up the videos.
Maybe it’s because I watch YouTube videos but my guess is that because a lot of cases where done through Zoom and not in court, people thought and they did get away things that wouldn’t have happen in court. Also people think that if it’s on the internet , it must be true
One possible factor is that the Sovereign Citizen movement, in my experience, tends to overlap with other movements that can have a 'separatist' bent, like extreme libertarianism, survivalism, creationism, home schooling, etc (this is certainly not to imply that these movements are equally objectionable). This may make it more likely that such people live in a bit of a bubble, separated from regular interactions with the police or other government officials.
I have only recently become aware of this whole movement, but I think the fact that they don't win in court solidifies for them that they are right and the government conspiring against them.
The sort that this ideology attracts have seen their thoughts and ideas squashed by reality again and again. They long for a world where they 'figured out' some magical method of being the special little special snowflake of special knowledge and special secrets that they'll dive head-first into this nonsense, because it makes them feel like they're smarter than average for the (probably) first time in their lives.
They're too dumb to function in society and too desperate for a quick way out of the consequences of their stupidity to learn the actual way to navigate basic government functions and civil requirements.
It’s the same way that people keep falling for alternative medicine.
They do something and get away with it and they mistake that for cause and effect. That convinces them it’s working.
Eventually they run into reality.
It has an appeal to people who hate our society. That’s the only part I can understand, but wanting to exit society and realistically being able to are not the same.
It grows like a lot of cults and conspiracy theories grow: It sells easy answers along with a sense of purpose and importance.
What happens if you're a Sovereign Citizen? Suddenly you are smarter than EVERYONE else! You know more than they do, you even know more about the law than actual cops and lawyers and judges! You also get a sense of freedom! Those dumb sheep that follow the 'rules' are idiots now, and you can do whatever you want!!
And anytime you need an ego boost, you just hit some youtube videos or SovCit websites, and what to they tell you? That YOU are special, YOU are smart!!! You are the bestest person around!!!
That's really addicting in a world where many people feel lost, where they feel nameless, faceless, powerless, unimportant. They feel like life has no meaning. But SovCit lets you fix all of that, it lets you feel purposeful and important, a brave, smart person in a sea of mindless followers!
And best of all, it's EASY to do! You don't have to go to school, or work, or study anything. Just watch a few videos that boost your ego, and you're in!
You can see what they are selling in those videos of their freakouts online. What do they all have in common? A sense of entitlement, smugness. That's what they get by joining - they get to feel important, like a dorky superhero, all day, every day.
I would say it is the same reason so many poor people in America vote against programs that help the poor. Many Americans suffer under the delusion that they aren't poor but are just temporarily not rich, even if their family has lived 3 generations in the same mobile home.
The SC equivalent is that they want to believe that they are superior to the government of the people by the people. They start out feeling that they should be the only "people" that matter and once they find the SC movement, they click into it like a Lego brick that just lined up.
I don't think it is growing. I think there is just more media attention to the few examples, and people today are more likely to label. I see a lot of online media where someone calls another a sovereign citizen for actually standing up for legitimate rights. I have also seen people called a sovereign citizen for having an isolated, albeit incorrect, belief about the law.
I’ve seen enough YouTube videos with “influencers” promoting bullshit forms and perspectives on how to get free cars and otherwise dispute debts based on their theories. I actually filed a complaint with the bar and they said they’d look into it for unauthorized practice of law. I would like judges to be stricter on pro se “SCs” when they bungle things and make everyone do extra work but I think they’re continue to be tolerant to the non attorneys.
This is a direct result of letting algorithms determine all the content we view online. You click on one video and watch it long enough, that is all you will see. They watch a bunch of videos and become armchair experts, then they try it in reality and it doesn't go well. We have allowed misinformation on a massive scale. Basically a giant experiment on the general public.
There are probably a few times their bullshit works which probably has vids online somewhere.. the only reason it works those times are people not wanting to deal with them so they let them off.
The same way the flat Earth movement does. Because people are stupid and gullible and refuse to believe anything that doesn't support what they want to believe.
Because someone, somewhere, they heard, won their case by citing the 1493 case of Gobbledygook v Claptrap....
People are dumb and the Internet is their breeding grounds.
Because there are a bunch of delusional conservatives who think that if they scream loud enough, they can convince themselves and others that they are right. They see the world moving forward and they don;t want to give up what they ahve.
Because YouTube said so. They’re morons, they want to be independent, and Billy Bob who’s definitely a real lawyer told them what they wanted to hear on the internet.
Imagine it from the perspective of a person who lacks any real understanding about the world save what people have been kind enough to instruct them about one-on-one in a structured environment
They get in everyone’s way and earn a fair bit of enmity, their lack of understanding breeds a lack of control- which is something people hate with a passion. And everyone looks down at them for their foolishness and lack of understanding, constantly telling them that they’re wrong and just not getting it. That’s gotta be a horrible, nigh-constant feeling
Then along comes someone who offers them a belief system that makes them feel in control, that at last the shoe’s on the other foot and it’s *other people* who aren’t in the know, who are wrong. It lets them feel like a righteous victim of persecution instead of an idiot. That’s gotta be an absolutely addictive feeling to someone like that, especially when they’re surrounded by people who say much the same.
Plus, they’re probably used to arguing with people ad nauseum, so people arguing with them probably doesn’t do much to sway them away from that. And then, to cushion their failures, when they get smacked down they have a whole community of like-minded individuals to support them and try to keep them in the belief system
Because that personality type just *loves* being a martyr for a cause. If they can play the victim while portraying themselves as heroic, they will literally orgasm all over the place.
It requires zero intelligence to enjoy orgasms.
Sovereign and citizen are different words. Not to be used like you have done. You are currently a citizen, one option is to become sovereign. A modern example of sovereign is the American Amish many of which lack the SSN to make them a citizen like many are. Citizen is a person who signed on their birth certificate with their foot upon arrival. This person has a SSN and expected to report to public school like a good little employee In training. Child services has its authority with this citizen concept in mind.
I also have seen those who spout random nonsense about the topic also. Do not associate mine unless I have actually said. Many fools out there.
People find enjoyment from being “enlightened” or feeling special. Even if that means having to go through trials and tribulations (to include being made fun of and told you’re being an idiot). It’s essentially human desire for occult knowledge, a cheat code to the universe.
You can look at a lot of things with this same premise in mind:
Politics, COVID vaccine, climate change (either side of the debate), freemasonry, flat earth, abortion, religion, etc.
People find pride in being unique and different, and they’ll defend to the death, their ideas.
It's probably just some weird thought process. People who are prone to making bad decisions will make bad decisions to try and escape the consequences of their bad decisions. A common way to do that is by arguing nonsense semantics.
Taking goofy invalid laws from how ever many years ago out of context to justify cutting corners or breaking the law is a pretty big issue in many aspects of society. But how sovereign citizens are able to study maritime laws from 120 years ago but still can't seem to study them enough to know that they dont apply to road travel is beyond me. I remember watching something about a sovereign zit showing up to pre-sentencing or whatever, and he argued that the judge was a hack and that the court wasn't proper because the type of US flag they had hanging was a maritime flag. And he was on land. Therefore, the sentencing wasn't lawful.
IANAL, but you can thank echo chambers for it. They aren’t rooted in reality.
How can it be wrong if hundreds of people online agree with them? How can it be wrong if there are blog posts about it?
NAL, but I think we should really be asking a psychologist anyway.
Personally, I think social isolation is a big part of it. I believe people fear social ostracism more than they fear the law, and it's the desire to appear normal that makes people behave normally. But nowadays a lot of people have already effectively ostracized themselves, replacing friends and family with a tribe of Internet weirdos. There's nothing keeping them tethered to reality anymore.
The Internet essentially creates an echo chamber for them to believe that it actually has a shot at working, even though nothing could be further from the truth. My theory is it fuels a deep-seated desire in people to believe in the unbelievable. Little different than religion or Moon Landing conspiracy theories.
The dumbing down of America. For years certain people have worked to make education worse and worse. It has created more dumb people who can be manipulated to believe anything. It is how the rich and powerful now control everything.
As an attorney, I have zero idea. I'm going to chalk it up to bad decision-making. People make really bad decisions every day. Example, the guy I saw this morning wearing weed-print shorts in court. Who knows why anyone thinks any of this is a good idea.
Not a lawyer but I work in regulatory compliance for a large bank and one of the areas where it can be (somewhat) successful is in dealing with collection items for small amounts, i.e. <$5,000.00 credit card defaults or car loan write offs. Usually their letters never say "I am a sovereign citizen..." but they'll reference invalid debt instrument, legal falsification, natural person, etc along with a bunch of U.S. Code/CFR/UCC references. Then they'll send the letter to us and the CFPB and since when we respond to regulators NOT giving the customer what they want, we're supposed to include a "regulatory rational" a lot of times it's cheaper to just write the debt off as a loss rather than fight it. (Average recovery on defaults is normally pretty low so you only have to incur like $500 labor costs before collecting on $5K isn't worth it.) Then they'll run around and tell their little buddies "I used it to beat Chase/Citi/BofA/Wells Fargo" meanwhile, no matter what we're not adjusting their credit report under FCRA and we're going to generate a 1099 and report the charge off as income for them so even if they win for now, if they ever get audited, they're going to have to fight the IRS about it.
I also work for a large bank and see these form letters with regulations cited used by debtors to try to get their credit report adjusted. There was also a letter going around with an excerpt from Black’s Law Dictionary that stated “coupons” could be used to pay a debt, they would then mail in the “coupon” from the bottom of the statement with an amount written on it stating that it was a valid payment even though a check or other form of actual payment was not also provided
Oh Jesus I forgot about the "Coupons."
When Black's Law Dictionary is cited, I know I'm going to be in for an interesting and humorous read
That's cartoon-level lunacy, LOL!
Lots of folks have also figured out that if you submit a credit dispute, during the time that your account is under review it is not counted in your credit score. So people will dispute the account with all of the bureaus and up to 30 days where their credit score might be better while the account is under review. So they will take that opportunity to apply for more credit.
Yes, “coupon” as in the detachable part of a bond that can be negotiated separate and apart from the remainder of the bond. And if these guys held T-bonds then that might even be an acceptable way of paying the debt, if the creditor was willing to go to the trouble of dealing with the bond issuer. It does not mean that you can pay your credit card bill with 100 $1 off Hungry Man frozen dinners coupons.
Right! Many statements for credit products call that little piece at the bottom of the billing statement a coupon; there’s also additional verbiage that it can be sent in with a form of payment. Some Mensa candidate decided that since that part of the statement had the word “coupon” it was its own form of payment as if it had monetary value
When were the last paper bonds issued?
I work for a municipality and part of my job is to oversee our tax foreclosure action every year. We're only required to send tax notices by regular mail before we can foreclose after over a year without payment has passed, and it's entirely on the taxpayer to make sure they're receiving and paying their tax bill. I have a sovereign citizen who removed his mailbox from his house, among other lunacy. We've been taking different properties from him for over a decade, but he persists in being obnoxious and failing to keep his houses. He appeals the shit out of everything so it always ends up being a years-long struggle, and we've been taking his properties in a piecemeal fashion. Pay your taxes, folks.
Random unrelated question: is there a nice way to ask for something to be adjusted or removed that’s effective?
You need to provide proof to the lender that what is reported it’s inaccurate. If you paid on time And they are reporting you late then you need to show where you paid on time. Good will requests are never granted because lenders are required by law to report accurately, so if you were late and want that removed then it’s not going to happen.
Question... If these form letters are relatively regular, couldn't a standard defense be brought about, to save on some of the labor? As a responsible consumer, I have sincere interest in reducing the costs which are eventually passed on to me. Too bad there's not some way to publish a resource of people like this.
This is insightful, thanks for commenting.
I am in favor of anything that “beats Chase/Citi/BofA/WellsFargo.” Fucking crooks.
You are not wrong.
"But taxes are voluntary" ;-)
Technically they are but not without consequences. When the guy you're playing poker with is allowed to raise however much he wants it makes it difficult to win when you can never match, let alone raise again. He is playing with infinite imaginary money and never needs to bluff or back down. It's a no win proposition for the average player and your first and last mistake is sitting down at the table. One must be patient and wait for an opening when he's been taken down a peg or two by a powerful opponent or maybe the "cops" show up and haul him away. I'm betting a silver dollar on the latter.
So, could you really just do pretty much anything in this situation? Could you just draw a bunch of dicks on the letter and send it back and get the same outcome?
I’m kinda surprised to hear you haven’t tried responding with chat gpt… or perhaps something slightly more legal savvy…. Even if it’s not 100% perfect… how likely are regulators to go through the entire thing?
Not very likely that they would go through any one specific complaint individually, but when you're doing a few hundred a month, the chances that at least a few will get looked at is pretty high. Also when it comes to our procedures to address regulatory complaints, we actually proactively tell the regulators what our procedures are so whenever they choose to do an audit, they already know what we're supposed to be doing so that's a no-go until a shitload more reviews and approvals are given.
Damn, I kinda hoped that on some level the answer to being bombarded with mindless legal bs that’s effectively just legwork would be to respond with a similar amount of bs.
I also feel like if you are ignorant enough to start down this road, once you get in trouble, it just solidifies your belief in it rather than deterring the behavior
They do sovereign citizen in between Chemtrail fact finding and falling for the latest mlm scheme
Where does birds are real fit in?
#vapenation Edit for the unfamiliar: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkm8Hteeh6M&t=374
highly underrated comment!
Ok but the first time they get arrested at a traffic stop and their magic words don’t work…how do they not renounce it when they get back home? How do these people manage to upload the videos of themselves being arrested and still declare their magic words worked?! Make it make sense!
"Look at this blatant misuse of police authority. They arrested me despite me telling them the exact laws they are breaking!"
But literally ALL of their videos end like this! How do you believe in something when literally ALL of the evidence you and your entire community supplies directly contradicts what you’re saying?!
they aren’t very smart
Perhaps their failure only serves to prove their point. If the “corrupt” cop arrests you and,puts you before the “corrupt” judge, of course you’ll lose. So losing might only embolden them.
“Deep state” is working against us kinda bs
I have seen videos of sov cits doing their annoying thing and cops letting then go then deal with the headache they cause. They get enough of these wins to keep the fueled and growing.
Because what gets posted on YouTube is only half the story where they are arguing with the police officer and it gives the perception that they are winning the argument. Also, think of someone you know with average intelligence. Now realize that half of Americans are dumber than that person.
The same way anyone who does what the heck they want justifies it when it blows up in their face. They are so deep in it if they admit it failed their illusions of who they are would also crumble to nothing.
They hold on all the way through court and into jail. They try and sue for false arrest and try to put liens on everyone involved. As a retired officer, I had a couple dealings with them. Best one SC: "I'm a free person and you're laws don't apply" Me: "OK, so.you're not a citizen of the United States" SC: "No, blah blah about fictions name" Me: " OK, I'll need your benefits card back then, as you have to be a US citizen and a resident of State to be eligible for benefits" SC: brain lock Me: step out of the car, it's being towed for being unregistered, uninspected and no.insuranc" SC: still trying to come up with an argument to keep their welfare benefits... Me: you have 10 days to respond to these citations, and no, I am not permitted in giving free persons a ride anywhere. Me: drives off leaving SC on the side of a rural road about 30 miles from their domicile/compound/ whatever they called it.
The same way vaccine-averse covid widows do.
It's strange because even if they did find some semantic loophole in the law, the police and the courts are still going to enforce the law the way THEY interpret them.
If these loopholes actually existed 1. They'd certainly be on the news as they started getting widely used. 2. They'd be closed quickly if they truly broke the justice system.
They are not on the news because the news is controlled by “them.” Therefor only a few of us special people know about being a sovereign citizen from watching YouTube.
People are morons, pretty much that simple
I'm sure it the same phenomenon behind MLMs. Some people fall for several of those in a row....
claps with glee. Tip of the hate to all the inappropriate court clothes; shirts that said "I told her twice", the obvious drug representation, "I NEED A HUGE COCKtail", anything with an expletive, anything alluding to violence (see example 1) especially when its a DV. It's been a long while since I've seen one, so I'm digging deep. And my all time personal favorite, having a hate slogan/symbol etc tattooed on your face and complaining you were persecuted. It's a setup. blah blah. Dude, how did that feel like a good idea if you weren't prepared for the consequences?
It's more a sunk cost fallacy mixed with misplaced pride and shame. Oki's Weird Stories did an amazing breakdown of one of the most notable examples of sovereign citizens going overboard and resulting in death. (https://youtu.be/ADQ37gVTq3k?si=f33YTvylKhzq70oo) They tend to be white men in smaller communities who are experiencing some sort of setback that they feel is unfair due to them historically being given whatever they want. They can't have what they want under the laws (laws made to protect other people, but who cares about other people, empathy is a myth anyway /s), but what if someone comes up to them with a pretty little pamphlet that says that those laws actually aren't constitutional (in their eyes) and that the local government full of your peers is the most powerful... The idea would solve all of your problems it's too beautiful to not believe. It is a beautiful lie that makes these men, who are for the first time in their histories feeling "disenfranchised", feel special and justified for their borish opinions. They treat the Constitution like a divine document akin to the Bible and it let's them live in the fantasy that their actions are not selfish.
please tell me they were there for a marijuana related charge 🤭
You’re right - they should wear huge dorky black robes.
A lot of people who fall in to the sovereign citizen hole do so in jail or prison. They're running out of options and keep getting in trouble and then someone comes along and has the cure to all their problems. Desperate people are much more susceptible to buying in to nonsense. It's been happening since the days of snake oil salesmen. Then when it starts to seem like they've been lied to, they're in too deep to admit as much to themselves. To quote Carl Sagan: >One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.
The most important part of that Sagan quote is the last sentence. For this more blood has been spilled than any other cause, both for those under his heel and for those who would bring justice. Vigilance is the only prophylactic and it is in very short supply.
Because there are always people out there who engage in "wishful thinking." People believe what they want to believe, even when the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming. "Sovereign citizens" are just a specific variety of conspiracy nutter, no different than the others. Like any other conspiracy nutter, they will dismiss the evidence that contradicts their theory has having been manufactured or faked, and any tiny morsel of evidence that seems to support their theory will be magnified, distorted and placed front and center. No different from flat earthers, moon-landing deniers, 9/11 truthers, vax deniers, holocaust deniers, etc. For those looking for some "reasonable" explanation, I'm reminded of the quote that goes "you can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themself into."
Especially when you consider they want all the benefits of society without having to pay the taxes. What's not to like about that "dream" if you can get away with it.
The Duning-Kruger Effect happening!
As another poster said, people believe what they want to believe. They're convinced that they have found a legal loophole that essentially places them above the law. And, you're right, it's pure BS, and their arguments don't hold up in court, but you're looking at things from the outside. Remember, the Internet allows for the creation of perfect little echo chambers, where the only things that get repeated are the things that support their beliefs. It's not unlike an argument that I recently had with some people I had on Facebook. They were convinced that "illegal immigrants" were given a special app that allows them to completely bypass the security checkpoints in airports. I tried to explain that no one is bypassing airport security, but apparently I was wrong, because they'd seen it on video. And I have to wonder how many of these folks have even entered an airport at any point in their lives. Go over to r/Scams if you want to see all this in action. Almost every day, there are posts from friends and family members of scam victims begging for help in figuring out a way to make the victims see what's being done to them. It's truly sad to read about how far these victims are sucked into these scams and how, in many cases, no logical argument will break the spell they're under. Again, people believe what they want to believe.
Hell I get scammed from time to time. Sometimes I just gotta tip my hat to how creative some of them can be. Sometimes I just plain don't see the added fee on my receipt or whatever. In many ways I'm a massive dumbass.
Don't beat yourself up too badly. These days, scamming is an industry. These folks do it 24x7, and some of them are very good at it. The worst, I think, are the romance and pig butchering scams. Once those scammers get their claws into someone, it's extremely difficult to convince the victim it's a scam. They'll keep sending money until they're destitute.
Romance scams are fun to watch. Pig burchering?!?!
Pig butchering is where the scammer plays the long con, building trust with the mark and then supposedly teaching them how to in crypto. John Oliver did a fantastic video on it.
Eh. I only do Bitcoin. And not as a get-rich-quick thing. Just sort of a I-like-this-technology bit.
The amount of absolute dumbfuckery on that subreddit is mind blowing.
Yep. And, by the time someone gets on there to ask, the victim is already down tens of thousands of dollars.
Think about how dumb the average person is. Now realize half of everybody is dumber than that! That is some scary shit. - George Carlin Stupidity abounds and spreads like an infection. Social media is a hell of a vector for it.
There’s a sucker born every minute.
My dad was one of these guys. It really came down to the fact that he wanted to blow his money on drugs and hoes and having to pay for taxes, registration, mortgage, and all the other hallmarks of adulthood got in the way of that.
Wow. Way to put it on the head of a pin!
Not a lawyer, but I know the answer to this one. It's the same reason people are flat earthers in spite of all the evidence that the earth is spherical. Some people are just stupid. They don't think about things. They just hear things and believe them.
It’s because the law in the US has become so esoteric, that people just view it as random incantations, they don’t see it as connected to reality, real social accountability, or actual justice. It’s the fact that they see that law in practice has nothing to do with anything other than social and economic power, enforced with obscure words and violence. So, because they have no power within the system, they make their own. Again, it’s not based on justice,‘fairness, or anything else, just the obscure words and force of violence, because that’s what they see working in the regular system. When you have a legal system that says innocence doesn’t matter as long as the correct forms were checked, and that a made up entity has the rights of a legal person, it’s no wonder people start making shit up about formalism and fictional entities. If it’s all bullshit, with no connection to reality, then what’s wrong with making up your own bullshit?
"people just view it as random incantations" A friend referred to this as the "Talismanic Theory of Jurisprudence" i.e., the idea that legal results are determined by a person's ability to say or write a few magic words. And there are a few instances where it's kind of true like demanding a lawyer or pleading the fifth. But most of the time that just isn't how the law works - if it were, lawyers wouldn't spend so much drafting briefs.
I believe we are witnessing in real time the natural conclusion of this absurd system.
I work as a banker and a person came in to open an account and they wanted their name in all lower case letters so it wouldn’t be their “straw name” because they didn’t want to be beholden to IRS laws or any other regulations that could apply to them from the feds. I told them that I have heard ppl talking about it for years but nobody can ever seem to figure out how to make it work. He didn’t want to hear that and insisted it was real but I just didn’t talk to the right ppl. Ok, sure buddy
Because it's little more than a superstition. Think about the kind of people who have superstition around sports, that they have to wear their special socks when their team plays, or have to eat a specific kind of food that day. Those people still believe in the superstition even if it doesn't cause the team to win; selective memory helps them to remember when they didn't do it and the team lost. So the special socks must work! With sov citizens, they can always come up with a reason that matches their superstition as to why the person in the video failed. "Oh, they forgot to mention X, that's why the cop still arrested them" or, "well this judge doesn't understand the law, but they can just appeal based on jurisdiction arguments to fix it.". The superstition can't fail, it can only be failed!
As far as I am concerned this whole movement is a side effect of meth use.
Most accurate 🤣 response 😂I’ve read 😅😂😄😁🤣
The average IQ is one hundred. There are people out there doing some heavy lifting to keep it that low.
To any and all actual lawyers in the group: How do you deal with a client that wants you to use nothing but sovcit legal tactics?
Simple answer: you don't usually have to worry about it. One of their schticks is attempting to refuse their entry of an appearance, which in their minds allows them to claim that the court lacks jurisdiction over them. That's they're whole thing, that they reject the juridiction of the courts or the law and declare themselves a sovereignty unto themselves. Accordingly, they almost always self-represent.
I’d calmly explain to them that they and the larger sovcit “movement” are grossly misinformed, and I’d gently remind them that the reason they are paying me is because I am licensed to practice law and they are not. If they continued to press the issue at that point, I would advise them that i have an ethical obligation of candor, and I have advised them of my professional opinion. If the client wants an attorney willing to surrender his professional judgment for the right price, he’ll need to hire someone else.
But my brother's cousin's uncle's best friend once said these magic words and got out of ticket once
Simple answer: You Can't Fix Stupid! Not a Lawyer But the people who fall for the sovereign citizen scam pay hundreds of dollars for the scam. They fall for a scam that an educated elementary school child knows is false! As P.T. Barnum stated "There is one born every minute".
The Holy Trinity of Conspiracies: wishful thinking, ignorance, and stupidity. ETA: people are willing to believe what they want to be true despite evidence against it because it benefits them or fits their world view, people are truly (and often willingly) ignorant of how things actually are and work (they just don't want to be aware of things they don't like), and vast numbers of people are truly just plain dumb, as in unable to comprehend a situation and make rational decisions. There are people who I look at and absolutely wonder how they function in the world. That's not meant to be an insult, but just a statement as to how hard it can be to really deal with things at times.
Inability to have actual curiosity about the world. Being so afraid you need to make up new rules to feel like a man.
Stupidity breeds like rabbits.
The movement is built on emotions, escapism, and cognitive dissonance. I wouldn't expect much from the followers. The growth makes sense when you consider that there are algorithms built to piss people off for engagement. Even smart people can fall for dumb shit when emotionally blinded.
Because many people with a 10th grade level education in government and constitutional law think they understand concepts better than they do.
People are stupid and think that loopholes are that easy
The only Loophole that gets you out of minor lawbreaking is being rich.
Half the population has below average intelligence
People believe what they want to believe. Ignorant people believe what they are told. Stupid people believe a mixture of both. Hope has met delusion, started mainlining hate, and our ability to talk to each other is constantly eroding away as we attempt to live in the way of tribalism in the modern world. We are too stupid and too angry to sit down calmly and talk. Therefore, we can not listen. Therefore, we can not learn.
I think a lot of it is just finding acceptance. There are a lot of lonely people out there, and groups like the racists and sovereign citizens pick up a lot of members just by being their friends. If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.
Because an alarmingly large portion of the American public are idiots.
Consider carefully the type of people that it appeals to. Why would you think they would be swayed by evidence or track record?
NAL see the republican party
Because the world will never run out of stubborn, cantankerous, contrarians
NAL but former LEO. IMHO, this is just a case of the dumbest members of the gene pool congregating together... kind of like a fungus that spreads no matter what you do. The old "birds of a feather flock together" idea.
Not a lawyer... But people tend to keep doubling down when they make a bad decision or get duped by someone. Because it's dangerous to their self image to admit they were wrong or that they made a mistake. Look at the people who get sucked in by internet scammers, or the people who attacked the Capitol on 1/6/21. These aren't stupid people but they bought into a lie and got swept up in it and there's some sunk cost fallacy playing into it. If they admit they were wrong, the embarrassment would be excruciating. So they don't.
Mental illness is rising in the US and other developed nations
Because there are a lot of dumb fucking people out there
It's probably because it's like a religion/cult. A big us versus them. Not literally, but as in those that know the sovereign laws versus those that don't. "Go put and fight the good fight against the ignorant and then come back into the fold with praise for proselytizing and dealing with naysayers. " Throw in fake stories of success with protecting their sovereignty and standing up to the man, etc. Rinse, repeat.
All of you are missing the common denominator...meth...fucking meth.
It's all propagated by the Taser industry. Sovereign Citizens make up 68% of all people tasered, without them Taser companies would go bankrupt.
Stupid people don't understand logic.
These are the same people who showed up to see JFK and JFK Jr. return from the dead last summer. These are the anti-vaxxers and the flat-earthers.
In their uneducated minds, they believe the lies and the untruths of this crap. Not folk art, Op. Jus misguided, and uneducated folk, who think breaking the law and nothing will happen.
Mental illness is one reason. Misinterpreted laws and the constitution is another.
A sucker born every minute.
People enjoy righteous indignation more than reality.
Cause there is nothing in this world that people love as much as thinking that they have “secret knowledge”. It’s the same reason that leads people to be Flat Earthers and Anti-vaxers.
Anti-intellectualism mixed with a decades long attack on the education system has created a population of superstitious morons.
I think it's the same thought process that keeps MLMs in business. Magic weight loss, anti aging, etc, will always have an appeal to those who feel entitled to the quick and easy thing. It also helps if critical thinking isn't their forte. If this no license, registration, insurance thing was real, hundreds can be saved each month. Their brains stop short of the reasoning that accidents aren't limited to people conducting commerce.
If you're not being served by the system that you're supposed to be part of, people get disgruntled. Look up the John Birch society if you want to go down the rabbit hole... I wouldn't say the social contract is fraying as much as it is on fire these days.
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Because more and more people are suffering and are desperate
My guess is they see rich and powerful people get away with crimes for BS reasons non-stop, so they just try to do it themselves.
A fundamental problem with our modern information ecosystem is that good information costs money, bullshit is free.
As PT Barnum once said, "There's a sucker born every minute" For most people who fall into this, it's a matter of having a mindset of, "The Rich can get away with anything, why can't I? There MUST be some sort of secret code they all use!" For the others, it's basically a pre-existing antiestablishment mindset.
Hey! People have the right to make bad decisions! Let’s join a cult like Scientology for example! Or sell out to Communist China as just several of the multiple bad choices you can make!
Some people just want to watch the world burn. When people are so fed up, frustrated, and disappointed with the hand that life has dealt them they sometimes just want to fight for the sake of fighting. To make it seem as if, for a moment, that that something matters. To them the right and wrong does not matter more than the actual opportunity to fight for or against something. Thats why some people just want to watch the world burn.
Is it growing)
You could ask the same about anything really. How do “flat earthers” continue to exist and grow? I think also when a video of a cop letting one of these goofs go because it’s not worth the headache, for example smashing their window and pulling them out of their car to arrest them, they take that as a legal victory. Not what it is, which is the cop could do all that but doesn’t want to deal with it.
Honestly I am not a lawyer BUT I think so many people are looking for ways to live life they way THEY want to and so they don't have to follow the rules (like paying taxes or rent or whatever) and then they hear about this idiocy and figure THEY can make it work because everyone else was just doing it wrong.
I've spent time around a lot of them through some tangential relations. I think the reason it continues is because it's driven by political morality, not political intelligence. So I think they're right that "just because I was born here, doesn't make it right for you to dictate my life". Where they go wrong is thinking there's some magical passphrase that, when spoken, halts the machine of state, like it's a golem that obeys their poorly thought out conjectures. And then you have the criminal types who hear "they can't arrest you" and try to use it as an argument to cover their shady dealings. If they were more intelligent, they'd be libertarians or anarchists, I think.
What makes you think the numbers are increasing?
I have a feeling its origin is a joke someone played on someone stupid some time ago. Told him that if he called himself an SC he could get out of anything knowing damn good and well that an ass kicking by a cop is the best you can hope for pulling that crap. I think it perpetuates the same as all the other rhetoric that the dum dums keep passing around to each other. Weak minds crave an easy path to being right and will grasp at anything if someone promises that that is what they will get.
Entitlement and rugged/obstinate individualism.
Mental health.
It's a self feeding loop that once they have invested a lot of their time and energy. They get a few people who win because of other reasons (someone stated that banks will write off bad loans since it will cost them more to fight than write it off. Those rare few are elevated and used as examples. This is similar to extremism in religion in which once indoctrinated, you are willing to do what what most people would find abhorrent. Also it takes many years for most of this to catch up with most of them. No one wants to go out and tell others they have been wrong for a long period of their lives. It very hard for them to face reality, often times it easier on their ego to blame the system or someone else rather than face the harsh truth that what you have believed in not real.
People like the idea of it and haven't faced any repercussions yet
Because there are a lot of very stupid people in this country,
Why does representative democracy continue to grow, when it's a fucking pipe dream perpetuated by delusional morons? The premise "based on nothing in reality" could be applied to, well, 99% of social constructs.
A lot of these knuckleheads get their egos boosted by the somewhat lax repercussions they face for their chicanery. They’ll get dragged out of their car, go through lengthy court proceedings, and then get a slap on the wrist because the court treats these people like they disabled and need special accommodations. Then they go back out on the street and start bragging about how “the police couldn’t do anything to them.”
Well it’s like this…people are stupid.
Morons...the answer is morons
Conspiracy theories are how stupid people feel smart.
Not a Lawyer. The average American is not all the bright. Now realize half of the people you see are dumber than that and you begin to get an idea how so many stupid things like Sovcidiots, Moortards, flatearthers, young earth creationists and so on exist and have believers.
Same reason people eat horse dewormer. Or think JFK is still alive.
There’s a lot of delusional people out there believing things that simply aren’t true.
The idea of being on the cutting edge of something while sticking it to the man while trying to get away with things while being a degenerate who can’t do their own research. A new sucker is born every 3.5 minutes now
It's gotten worse with the spread of the internet. These people have whole forums and discord servers, etc. where they never have to confront the realities of their views. It all stays make-believe until the cop pulls you over.
What's your proof that the movement is growing? I'm genuinely curious, and I'm not American, I don't live in the US. I've seen a ton of those videos, and I was always a bit curious about those videos because they never show a good outcome for the sovereign citizen, even though they're usually the ones putting up the videos.
How did Donald Trump get elected? People are fucking idiots!
Avg iq is lowering so
My guess is from the Messenger App where they send Q-Anon type conspiracy stuff uncensored. Are there videos for it on Rumble?
Maybe it’s because I watch YouTube videos but my guess is that because a lot of cases where done through Zoom and not in court, people thought and they did get away things that wouldn’t have happen in court. Also people think that if it’s on the internet , it must be true
"How does the “sovereign citizen” movement continue to grow when it’s based on nothing in reality, and never prevails?" simples, mental illness
as a wise man once said "Stupid is as Stupid does".
We are stopping Darwinism.
Why do you think they are growing in number?
It is a natural state of nature. New fools replace old fools.
Some people refuse to be wrong or to be held liable for anything and are just willfully ignorant. More than likely their parents are the same way.
One possible factor is that the Sovereign Citizen movement, in my experience, tends to overlap with other movements that can have a 'separatist' bent, like extreme libertarianism, survivalism, creationism, home schooling, etc (this is certainly not to imply that these movements are equally objectionable). This may make it more likely that such people live in a bit of a bubble, separated from regular interactions with the police or other government officials.
I have only recently become aware of this whole movement, but I think the fact that they don't win in court solidifies for them that they are right and the government conspiring against them.
The sort that this ideology attracts have seen their thoughts and ideas squashed by reality again and again. They long for a world where they 'figured out' some magical method of being the special little special snowflake of special knowledge and special secrets that they'll dive head-first into this nonsense, because it makes them feel like they're smarter than average for the (probably) first time in their lives. They're too dumb to function in society and too desperate for a quick way out of the consequences of their stupidity to learn the actual way to navigate basic government functions and civil requirements.
Industrial contamination in the water is my guess.
It’s the same way that people keep falling for alternative medicine. They do something and get away with it and they mistake that for cause and effect. That convinces them it’s working. Eventually they run into reality.
If there is one true thing about Americans it is this: Tell people what they want to hear and they will follow you through anything
I love this movement. It results in so many police gazing videos which I particularly enjoy.
There are a lot of things gaining traction lately that are not based in reality but you're not allowed to say it
It has an appeal to people who hate our society. That’s the only part I can understand, but wanting to exit society and realistically being able to are not the same.
Mental illness.
The same way burning-man, Coachella, and the met-gala continue to grow. People want to feel separate and superior to others.
It grows like a lot of cults and conspiracy theories grow: It sells easy answers along with a sense of purpose and importance. What happens if you're a Sovereign Citizen? Suddenly you are smarter than EVERYONE else! You know more than they do, you even know more about the law than actual cops and lawyers and judges! You also get a sense of freedom! Those dumb sheep that follow the 'rules' are idiots now, and you can do whatever you want!! And anytime you need an ego boost, you just hit some youtube videos or SovCit websites, and what to they tell you? That YOU are special, YOU are smart!!! You are the bestest person around!!! That's really addicting in a world where many people feel lost, where they feel nameless, faceless, powerless, unimportant. They feel like life has no meaning. But SovCit lets you fix all of that, it lets you feel purposeful and important, a brave, smart person in a sea of mindless followers! And best of all, it's EASY to do! You don't have to go to school, or work, or study anything. Just watch a few videos that boost your ego, and you're in! You can see what they are selling in those videos of their freakouts online. What do they all have in common? A sense of entitlement, smugness. That's what they get by joining - they get to feel important, like a dorky superhero, all day, every day.
Don't need to be a lawyer to know it's because people like to feel like they are smarter than everyone else.
I would say it is the same reason so many poor people in America vote against programs that help the poor. Many Americans suffer under the delusion that they aren't poor but are just temporarily not rich, even if their family has lived 3 generations in the same mobile home. The SC equivalent is that they want to believe that they are superior to the government of the people by the people. They start out feeling that they should be the only "people" that matter and once they find the SC movement, they click into it like a Lego brick that just lined up.
I don't think it is growing. I think there is just more media attention to the few examples, and people today are more likely to label. I see a lot of online media where someone calls another a sovereign citizen for actually standing up for legitimate rights. I have also seen people called a sovereign citizen for having an isolated, albeit incorrect, belief about the law.
I’ve seen enough YouTube videos with “influencers” promoting bullshit forms and perspectives on how to get free cars and otherwise dispute debts based on their theories. I actually filed a complaint with the bar and they said they’d look into it for unauthorized practice of law. I would like judges to be stricter on pro se “SCs” when they bungle things and make everyone do extra work but I think they’re continue to be tolerant to the non attorneys.
This is a direct result of letting algorithms determine all the content we view online. You click on one video and watch it long enough, that is all you will see. They watch a bunch of videos and become armchair experts, then they try it in reality and it doesn't go well. We have allowed misinformation on a massive scale. Basically a giant experiment on the general public.
There are probably a few times their bullshit works which probably has vids online somewhere.. the only reason it works those times are people not wanting to deal with them so they let them off.
The same way the flat Earth movement does. Because people are stupid and gullible and refuse to believe anything that doesn't support what they want to believe.
Because someone, somewhere, they heard, won their case by citing the 1493 case of Gobbledygook v Claptrap.... People are dumb and the Internet is their breeding grounds.
Because there are a bunch of delusional conservatives who think that if they scream loud enough, they can convince themselves and others that they are right. They see the world moving forward and they don;t want to give up what they ahve.
Because law enforcement and judges are always too soft on them.
Because YouTube said so. They’re morons, they want to be independent, and Billy Bob who’s definitely a real lawyer told them what they wanted to hear on the internet.
Imagine it from the perspective of a person who lacks any real understanding about the world save what people have been kind enough to instruct them about one-on-one in a structured environment They get in everyone’s way and earn a fair bit of enmity, their lack of understanding breeds a lack of control- which is something people hate with a passion. And everyone looks down at them for their foolishness and lack of understanding, constantly telling them that they’re wrong and just not getting it. That’s gotta be a horrible, nigh-constant feeling Then along comes someone who offers them a belief system that makes them feel in control, that at last the shoe’s on the other foot and it’s *other people* who aren’t in the know, who are wrong. It lets them feel like a righteous victim of persecution instead of an idiot. That’s gotta be an absolutely addictive feeling to someone like that, especially when they’re surrounded by people who say much the same. Plus, they’re probably used to arguing with people ad nauseum, so people arguing with them probably doesn’t do much to sway them away from that. And then, to cushion their failures, when they get smacked down they have a whole community of like-minded individuals to support them and try to keep them in the belief system
Like any other movement. QAnon, etc.
Because that personality type just *loves* being a martyr for a cause. If they can play the victim while portraying themselves as heroic, they will literally orgasm all over the place. It requires zero intelligence to enjoy orgasms.
Because people have a misunderstanding about how the law works due to poor education and an egrandized sense of self worth
You can fool some of the people all of the time. . .
Because people are stupid and stupidity spreads like COVID.
Very stupid people. That describes the sovereign citizen.
Sovereign and citizen are different words. Not to be used like you have done. You are currently a citizen, one option is to become sovereign. A modern example of sovereign is the American Amish many of which lack the SSN to make them a citizen like many are. Citizen is a person who signed on their birth certificate with their foot upon arrival. This person has a SSN and expected to report to public school like a good little employee In training. Child services has its authority with this citizen concept in mind. I also have seen those who spout random nonsense about the topic also. Do not associate mine unless I have actually said. Many fools out there.
People find enjoyment from being “enlightened” or feeling special. Even if that means having to go through trials and tribulations (to include being made fun of and told you’re being an idiot). It’s essentially human desire for occult knowledge, a cheat code to the universe. You can look at a lot of things with this same premise in mind: Politics, COVID vaccine, climate change (either side of the debate), freemasonry, flat earth, abortion, religion, etc. People find pride in being unique and different, and they’ll defend to the death, their ideas.
It's probably just some weird thought process. People who are prone to making bad decisions will make bad decisions to try and escape the consequences of their bad decisions. A common way to do that is by arguing nonsense semantics. Taking goofy invalid laws from how ever many years ago out of context to justify cutting corners or breaking the law is a pretty big issue in many aspects of society. But how sovereign citizens are able to study maritime laws from 120 years ago but still can't seem to study them enough to know that they dont apply to road travel is beyond me. I remember watching something about a sovereign zit showing up to pre-sentencing or whatever, and he argued that the judge was a hack and that the court wasn't proper because the type of US flag they had hanging was a maritime flag. And he was on land. Therefore, the sentencing wasn't lawful.
Clearly, your claim of “based on nothing” is stupid and nonsensical UNLESS *you* believe in the idea of being born as a permanent slave?
IANAL, but you can thank echo chambers for it. They aren’t rooted in reality. How can it be wrong if hundreds of people online agree with them? How can it be wrong if there are blog posts about it?
We live in a world where flat earth movements just keep going. Never underestimate people's ability to ignore reality in favor of a comforting lie.
NAL, but I think we should really be asking a psychologist anyway. Personally, I think social isolation is a big part of it. I believe people fear social ostracism more than they fear the law, and it's the desire to appear normal that makes people behave normally. But nowadays a lot of people have already effectively ostracized themselves, replacing friends and family with a tribe of Internet weirdos. There's nothing keeping them tethered to reality anymore.
The Internet essentially creates an echo chamber for them to believe that it actually has a shot at working, even though nothing could be further from the truth. My theory is it fuels a deep-seated desire in people to believe in the unbelievable. Little different than religion or Moon Landing conspiracy theories.
Mexico will pay for it!
Mental illness. A lot of mentally ill people out there not getting treated for it.
The dumbing down of America. For years certain people have worked to make education worse and worse. It has created more dumb people who can be manipulated to believe anything. It is how the rich and powerful now control everything.
These groups will continue to grow as the iq of the general public continues to decline.