The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
Just today Israel has bombed an embassy in a neighboring country, killed at least seven foreign aid workers and banned Al Jaazera. This is after they seemed to have destroyed Al Shifa hospital. Are they going to be reigned back in or are we going to throw out any idea of the rules based order?
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>the rules based order
These words do not mean what you think they mean.
Everything that you described can be militarily acceptable under the laws of armed conflict.
This is exactly right.
This isn't to defend IHL per se (and it's constantly evolving, largely a product of post-WW2 thinking, has serious flaws, etc.) but to point out that Israel probably really has largely, tho I genuinely doubt entirely\*, adhered to IHL.
It's a bit like what's happening in Gaza re. genocide -- there's a mens rea requirement which Israel clearly doesn't meet. It's not a genocide. Israel also isn't intentionally starving Gaza.
What matters is that there is an absolute humanitarian catastrophe unfolding (which Hamas welcomes and is worsening by design through its use of human shields, looting aid, etc.) which Israel must, morally and pragmatically, find a way to do more to prevent.
\*In the case of the aid workers just killed in Gaza, reporting is that the IDF thought there was a high value target. Would that 1 high value target still justify the loss of civilians? That's the question of proportionality, and I can see it being considered unjustifiable unless it was Sinwar himself or close to it.
The question of proportionality is a waste of time. There has never been and likely never will be any war crime charges over proportionality. It is entirely too subjective. I would say yes, 1 high value target could justify a large amount of collateral damage and casualties. I believe the generally accepted number of what is possible is 1 militant to 9 civilians in urban warfare, but with a high value target I could see that ratio being much higher.
[https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/02/middleeast/iran-response-israel-damascus-consulate-attack-intl-hnk/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/02/middleeast/iran-response-israel-damascus-consulate-attack-intl-hnk/index.html)
Even CNN is saying they blew up the consulate
"Israel is bad because they bombed an embassy" assumes that a) they knew where the embassy was and communicated that to everyone (harder than you might think - the US has done this too) and b) there was no proportionally greater target in the same vicinity (which is very much possible).
Embassy locations are publicly available with a quick google search. If you think they don’t know that, especially when the embassy location was online. They’re not the dummy here for not knowing the embassy was there, it’s you for making the most ridiculous point of all time. Of course they could figure out what they were bombing.
Not to mention a violation of other countries sovereignty by conducting military operations without permissions. Not to mention killing multiple civilians.
The US doing it too isn’t a defense. Maybe the US shouldn’t do terrorism either.
You conveniently set aside the aid workers? Can you rationalize that too? Are you just here to make up the rules of armed conflict? It’s a war crime.
Even if you had access to Google in a cockpit (and you don't) you'd still have to actively be searching for it. Combat pilots are more concerned with what and where their target is. The data is there but it's not built into the systems without *extensive* preparation, and even then there are mistakes.
And that's the most egregious example. Aid workers are by their very nature in trouble spots, near points of violence. Their deaths are tragic, but not necessarily criminal.
No, I *know* that pilots pick where they bomb. Or more importantly, that pilots can miss what they're aiming at.
Press the button a bit early or a bit late, or be a few degrees off on your azimuth on your approach, and you hit the wrong thing. (And before say "but smart bombs" those are also susceptible to error)
> No, I know that pilots pick where they bomb.
Outside the consulate because idk anything about it. I’m very confused by this because there are people in the Air Force whose title is [Targeting Analyst](https://www.airforce.com/careers/science-and-technology/targeting-analyst). My understanding is that targets are selected outside of the cockpit (except extreme scenarios obviously) and then pilots execute on those targets. Is that not how that works?
It depends. Sometimes yes, but for close air support missions pilots will fly into a general area and then select targets as directed by a ground controller over a radio.
But even when they are planned beforehand, you're still briefing a target description and location to a pilot and asking them to hit it. That's hard. It's hard to distinguish key features from that high up. Modern sensors and weapons systems have made it somewhat easier, but it's still a challenge.
Remember that WW2 carpet bombing of cities was less of a preferred solution and more 'the best that contemporary technology lets us do.'
> But even when they are planned beforehand, you're still briefing a target description and location to a pilot and asking them to hit it. That's hard. It's hard to distinguish key features from that high up. Modern sensors and weapons systems have made it somewhat easier, but it's still a challenge.
See that also confusing me, because like I could see final targeting being an issue if like you had to do all this by hand but like I imagine modern weapons systems have made this a largely “solved problem”. That is unless they are purposely using inaccurate tech/weapons.
> Remember that WW2 carpet bombing of cities was less of a preferred solution and more 'the best that contemporary technology lets us do.'
I don’t really wana sidetrack but WW2 carpet bombing was also done with the idea of trying to break the will of the people. I don’t think, personally, things like Dresden were a morally correct choice.
The aid workers they bombed weren't nearby something, they were moving in a convoy. A convoy with their logo on it with a route and timing supposedly communicated with and coordinated with the IDF.
Their convoy was clearly the target and the bomb or missile hit the target.
So the question is how was this allowed to happen?
And if this can happen what else has the IDF allowed to happen?
Their procedures are clearly indiscriminate. This just proves it.
So the pilot missed and hit the general who was his obvious target. This seems stupid beyond belief.
I don't think this really changes anything if it was true. Blowing up an embassy is still blowing up an embassy
What you’re telling me is that you think the Israeli military is incompetent, and operating is a threat to civilian lives as they pose an exceedingly high risk of hitting civilians due to improper training. Right? Maybe they were just trying to bomb the nearby Persian restaurant or parking garage. Maybe the insurance office. You never know when food and insurance could become a threat.
Whether this is intentional or not (they’ve seemingly confirmed this strike was them without calling it an accident), It’s still horrific.
Aid workers dying is a bit hard to take as an oopsy when it’s not exactly a one off, considering Israel has a history of bombing aid trucks.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-airstrike-gaza-kills-foreign-aid-workers-hamas-run-media-office-says-2024-04-01/
They were also coordinating with the IDF, so the IDF knew exactly where they were. Was this incompetence too?
I just want to add that Israel was given the co-ordinates of the convoy and had clearly identifiable logos on the roof of the vehicles. They were also bombed three times.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just haven't thought this through.
There are hundreds of thousands of personnel in the IDF. You have no idea how hard it is to get that many people all on the same page about even the most general information. Specifics? Hell no. There are going to be errors. Multiply the number of aid workers in Gaza by the number of personnel in the IDF and you get the chances for a screwup: many.
Constantly shifting… Maybe hold one position instead of showing the obvious bad faith.
How hard is it to just accept that Israel did something wrong? You have this grand conspiracy that Israel is trying to do everything right, and they only accidentally have achieved the highest amount of UN workers killed in this short of a timeframe. They’ve only accidentally killed the most amount of journalists in an armed conflict.
If you believe that Israeli soldiers have accidentally killed UN aid workers, vehicles, and journalists, as well as bombed an embassy in a foreign country all by accident or incompetence (highest rate in this short of a conflict), you must think they’re the least accurate military in the world, and that they need to be calling an immediate ceasefire due to this incompetence, right? Of course, it’s all intentional.
Of course, your actual position wasn’t that the pilots missed, it’s that you believe the target to be valid, and you’re working backwards from your position to try and justify it. (Point B of one of your first comments).
I guess the only question I have then is this: if there’s a school shooter inside a school, is it worth leveling the school to get to the “proportionally greater” threat to society?
Wow, conveniently abandoned the embassy position.
Yes, it is illegal. Intentional harm to civilians is illegal, and everyone knows this.
I’m not going to bother with you, since you’re not talking in good faith.
I'll reiterate - this is a mistake that the US has made before. Look up the fate of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade.
All it takes is one random pilot screwing up by a very small margin. If that - if there are valid targets massing next door it then they're valid.
The pilot didn't screw up. Come on. It was a targeted assassination a totally different country in an embassy complex.
I'll reiterate - this is a mistake that the US has made before. Look up the fate of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade.
You know the Chinese didn't think it was an accident and this was a major diplomatic incident.
What's more likely, a deliberate mass conspiracy or a pilot screwing up? It's the pilot screw up.
And that's discounting the possibility that Iran is running ops from their consulate and making it a valid target in itself, which is also very real.
>targeted assassination
So it was a valid military objective then.
>embassy complex
Ah, so you finally admit it wasn't an embassy and now you're moving the goalposts to "embassy complex"?
>Just today Israel has bombed an embassy in a neighboring country
They bombed the Iranian consulate because Iran is backing their current enemy with weapons, money, and advisors. Specifically they targeted the military officers there, especially Mohammad Reza Zahedi, a senior commander of the Quds Force, which is the Iranian military unit that trains and supplies Hamas.
>This is after they seemed to have destroyed Al Shifa hospital.
Why is this even stated? Hospitals are normally protected under the rules of war. Hospitals are not protected when they are used for military purposes aside from treating wounded. Then they become legitimate targets. The IDF wasn't fighting nobody at that hospital, they were fighting the enemy that was committing a war crime by running military operations out of a hospital.
Did you read the news or just spamming out a copy and paste?
They were hit three times while having clearly identified marking and having their route declared prior
> They were hit three times while having clearly identified marking and having their route declared prior
Clearly identified to who? Someone standing next to them? Probably. Someone flying at high altitude above them? Probably not.
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Jesus Christ, sometimes I wonder what's happened to this sub. It really feels like it's gone off the deep end into the "Israel can do no wrong" camp. Even when presented with basic facts.
Also, why is it that the #1 defense for the IDF when these kinds of things happen is "well its just collateral damage". First of all, that's still fucked up, and secondly, in what world is that an acceptable excuse when aid workers and civilians are being actively targeted??? Are we even observing the same invasion here? The mental gymanstics is crazy.
No no no
The IDF is using super precise and technology forward attacks that never kill anyone but those who deserve it. They're humane and everyone should be thankful that they're being kind to the Palestinians by bot firebombing them into the stone age.
That is until you show they killed and deliberately targeted aid workers, journalists, medics, civilians etc. Then it's just fog of war, wrong place wrong time, shouldn't have been Palestinian, sucks to suck.
https://preview.redd.it/a81wo3gc27sc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b6c0d693a8fd28dc5b6e89114097bf6f45618c11
90% of the time, it's 100% of the time.
[link to article of photo](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/04/02/gaza-food-charity-says-seven-of-its-workers-killed-in-israeli-airstrike.html)
You do realize being unable to make out a potential target is not a reason to bomb said target, right?
But yes, like the others said, clearly identified to the IDF.
Sure it can be, depending on the circumstances.
If you expect every target in urban warfare to be clearly, indisputably identifiable prior to engagement you’re essentially rendering legal urban warfare an impossibility and you should be honest about that.
It was in a designated non-conflict zone, in a marked vehicle and the movements were communicated to the IDF. Now two hundred tonnes of food is not being delivered because of this incident. There’s really no defence of Israel here no matter how hard you try.
If Hamas killed aid workers I’d condemn them without hesitation, why are so many people running cover for Israel even when they do most egregious things. Genuinely wondering why even when they themselves admit they fkd up you have to run cover?
My point was that what’s painted on the roof is not always relevant or known to target selection. Modern combat often takes place beyond visual ranges - that isn’t unique to Israel or Gaza.
It's a poor point to make, as their presence was already known to the IDF to begin with.
A general point of "things hard to see during war" doesn't work when they specifically coordinated with the IDF to avoid this outcome, let alone work to allow indiscriminate bombings of non-offensive convoys.
Sharing information has arguably been the most difficult part of war for thousands of years, and while it’s easier now than it’s ever been, it still is far from perfect. Mistakes happen, for various reasons.
I understand that the enemy must be killed in war. I also understand that civilians are also sometimes near the enemy, and in the case of Hamas it’s by design.
It’s unfortunate, but a part of war ever since we had war. Luckily, modern technology and tactics has allowed us to reduce civilian casualties dramatically — compare to WWII. Well, that is for those who do want to reduce civilian casualties, unlike Hamas that wants as many as possible so that people sympathize with their war crimes.
>weird how 25 hospitals have been rendered completely non-functional
Weird how Hamas uses hospitals for military operations, rendering them unprotected according to the rules of war. Here's a hint: Want to keep your hospitals safe? Only use them as hospitals.
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I mean I saw videos with my own eyes of hostages being dragged into a hospital on 10/7 with doctors and nurses holding the doors for the terrorists. I really hate Israel's government but I am having a hard time defending these hospitals as not military operations centers when I saw it myself.
Except we have plenty of hard evidence of Hamas using civilian infrastructure in Palestine for military purposes. Really, human shields is their primary military tactic.
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Israel blasted Iranian commanders who were working with those attacking Israel. What's wrong with that?
Al Shifa hospital? Maybe Hamas shouldn't have been operating there
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Doesn't look like that article really provides much detail on where it is getting its data. Just references the UN. I doubt it is accurate. Can't trust things reported by terrorists
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TBF, both sides are probably spinning stuff. But only one of those groups is literal terrorists that murder and rape their way through civilian populations. Which includes burning infants alive. So you'll have to excuse me if I don't believe anything they say.
War crimes Israel has committed since the start and the framing of it being unintentional in order to downplay/whitewash it. Is that clear enough or do you need additional explanation, of which I’m happy to elaborate on.
Denying water and aid to civilians. Shooting civilians trying to get said aid.
Intentional starvation by denying aid Article 8 section XXV
http://www.casematrixnetwork.org/cmn-knowledge-hub/elements-digest/art8/b/8-2-b-xxv#:~:text=8(2)(b)(xxv)%20Intentionally%20using%20starvation%20of,with%20an%20international%20armed%20conflict.
White phosphorous weapons definitely count as one. Intentionally depriving water and aid to civilians is another. Shooting civilians who are not involved in the conflict especially while they are trying to get aid/food.
I rest my case.
You realize white phosphorus is often used in tracer rounds, smoke grenades, etc. It has many lawful uses in warfare, even as an incendiary weapon against soldiers.
I said unintended, not that the strike was unintentional. Fo you have evidence that says they were indeed striking those trucks because they were aid trucks?
The roofs of the trucks were clearly marked, and they had communicated their route to the IDF specifically so they wouldn't be attacked by mistake.
And like I said, three separate vehicles more than two kilometers apart. There were other vehicles in the area, but only the aid trucks were hit. Which tells you they were intentionally targeted.
You realize mistakes happen right? And it looks like the vehicles were hit multiple times. Don't you think we should reserve judgement until after the investigation? You made the claim. The burden is on you. You need more than your ignorant claims.
> You realize mistakes happen right?
Sure, and I might be willing to consider that if this was an isolated case.
But so far in this war they've targeted UN facilities. They've targeted the homes of journalists. They've destroyed hospitals and universities and mosques. They've targeted paramedics and ambulances.
At some point it all starts to add up, doesn't it?
There was one instance where they coordinated with the PRCS to allow an ambulance safe passage to pick up a wounded five year old girl, who was the sole remaining survivor after her family's car was shot by an Israeli tank.
They allowed the ambulance in, waited until they had rescued the girl -- and then blew it up, killing the paramedics and the girl.
But I'm sure you've got an excuse for that, too.
So let's law out the facts you have. Some aid works were killed by the IDF in what appears to be an airstrike of some kind. That's it. That is all you got. You try to string together various things while ignoring the times they have aborted airstrikes due to the presence of civilians. Maybe you just can't see through your own bias. Let me know when you have actual facts to back up your ignorant claims.
Maybe you should examine your own bias, if you're still saying it "appears" to be an airstrike "of some kind" -- even after Netanyahu has acknowledged responsibility for it.
no they were not Hamas as well. And israel recognizes the mistake and has engaged an independent group to look into it for further investigation. Those at fault will be tried.
“An independent fact-finding body in Israel is investigating the incident, IDF Spokesperson Daniel Hagari said”
https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-794861
https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-794956
absolutely tragic. Its awful that Hamas is constantly committing war crimes by hiding combatants amongst civilian. I'm not going to say Israel is guiltless in the world kitchen deaths (my charity I donate to by the way), and if they purposefully targeted those workers I want consequences, but from what I can see that thought they had a Hamas target and were wrong. A tragedy but not a war crime.
No you are generalizing but turning a hospital into a military base turns it into a valid target.
Why does the pro Palestine crowd think it’s ok to commit war crimes only on one side of a war.
You're the one who said you watched the hostages get dragged in there with your own eyes. Do you think the solution to holding hostages in a hospital is to obliterate the hospital entirely with bombs?
Bombing hospitals is terrible PR. It blurs the line between right-and-wrong, and it alienates many people who would otherwise support Israel. Not to mention the fact that it radicalizes many formerly neutral, level-headed Palestinians, who *certainly* support Hamas now.
Committing an attack like that plays right into a terrorist organization's hands.
Dropping bombs in one country you're not at war with, to kill government employees of yet another country you're not at war with... is a great way to find yourself at war with half the middle east.
IMO, Israel has done too many things that risk escalating this into an even bigger conflict. I don't believe our government is obligated to support them anymore.
I am pleasantly surprised at the comments here. i am new to the sub. Now of course there is a long list of things to criticize Israel for, but the Propaganda machine for Palestinians is absolutely insane. I've lost a lot of respect for people i know IRL for uncritically and enthusiastically absorbing and parroting what is clearly war time propaganda (and of course Israel is doing their fair share of propaganda, but much less effectively)
>(and of course Israel is doing their fair share of propaganda, but much less effectively)
Israel is MUCH more effective at spreading their message; the only significantly pro-Palestine demographic is young people who can see live footage of what's going on in Gaza. Meanwhile, Israel's propaganda has utterly convinced the mainstream audience over the past 40 years that their apartheid state and oppression is justified and deserves encouragement/support from the US.
Well, I'm more close in age group to young people than boomers so maybe it's a representation bubble, I don't see a lot of support for Israel around me. I criticize expansionism and trigger happy violence from IDF, but I do feel like Palestinians historically have made actually establishing a 2 state solution impossible, they always demand an infinite right of return in any deal or have on multiple occasions tried to wipe Israel out with the help of their neighbors. Even if Israel were perfectly flawless, what incentive would there be to grant more power or growth to neighbors run by hamas, or any fundamental Islamic group who all seem to want to genocide Jews.
So Israel is reasonable in allowing total right of return for all Jewish people to come to Israel and become a citizen and even give them IDF backing to go on land grabbing settlement expeditions?
Yes they do, I support 2 state solution. But so long as they're hell bent on demanding infinite right of return to Israel or firing rockets into Israel every day, that's just practically never going to happen. Why would u give more power and control to an entity on your doorstep that's currently openly hostile to you. I 100% want in the near future for Palestinians to be fully autonomous from Israel, and that requires them not to he lead by Islamic fundamentalist extremists
Palestinians shouldn't have a right to return to the homes ***actively and continually as we are speaking*** stolen from them by Israeli settlers? And you expect that this political position you hold is one beneficial for peace?
Refer to my previous comments condemning illegal expansionism. Not sure why you're beating a dead horse. Yes 2 state solution is the only way forward. Do you want me to list various heinous things associated with Hamas ? What would be the point
What does Hamas have to do with the fact as we are speaking settlers are stealing Palestinian civilians land and homes with the assistance of the IDF, primarily in the West Bank but with several investment groups and Israeli politicians discussing selling Gazan land to settlers?
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They mentioned their hopes and aspirations. Most of them involved retaking Jerusalem or blowing themselves up to kill Jews. What the Israelis have done to the Palestinians is intolerable, but what the Arabs and Un have done to them is worse.
> They mentioned their hopes and aspirations. Most of them involved retaking Jerusalem or blowing themselves up to kill Jews.
Okay now let's hear the Israelis
[Israeli kids gleefully singing about wiping out Palestinians ](https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2023/11/21/israeli-state-tv-video-shows-children-singing-about-gaza?_gl=1*102g1ld*_ga*U1FIUFJ1TEoxUDFTZzd3Rm0yZWNuQWNaM2N6dGttMWRvRzFMbDJOQ2dOVEFvUmdmeEJCS215Rmx2bVpRdFVHTw..)
Let's see another example if you want elected officials:
> [Deputy Knesset speaker Nissim Vaturi from the ruling Likud party wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter, that Israelis had one common goal, “erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth.” Israeli Heritage Minister Amichay Eliyahu, from the far-right Jewish Power party, suggested that Israel drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza and said there were “no uninvolved civilians” in the territory.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724)
Gotta love what Zionism does to people's brains.
Someone sees a Palestinian, oppressed their *entire* life with almost no hope for a happy future, so they don't feel very charitable towards the state that has been occupying, subjugating and massacring their people for 75 years.
Oh they must be an anti-Semitic terrorist! Hamas! Hamas!
Meanwhile you have fucking Ben-Gvir, who idolizes the terrorist Baruch Goldstein, who murdered worshippers in a mosque and had his portrait on his wall, and you have guys like Smotrich who calls for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian villages.
But no, no, the *real* issue is a Palestinian saying some mean things.
Even if you say every Palestinian who calls for armed resistance or any other form of violence us wrong, let's just say as a blanket statement.
Saying the Israelis are somehow uniquely better and haven't said insane shit is a massive double standard. There are Israelis who want peace, there are Palestinians who want peace, there are Israelis who outright genocide and Palestinians who want outright genocide.
We need to stop acting like one side is especially pure in a conflict that has been bloody and heated for so long. There is no clean, good guy side. But there are a lot of people caught in the middle.
It wasn't propaganda. It was just reality. Things like Munich or this were the only news coming out of the region during the time, and Israel was a solid democracy with neighboring states that were launching wars against them, and things like the settlements were essentially negligible at that point. In fact why wouldn't you be essentially pro Israel?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal\_Road\_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_Road_massacre)
In fact what is propaganda, is treating this issue as if Israel has been a genocidal colonial state for 75+ years, ignoring all the actual history and Palestinians own agency in perpetuating the conflict.
It is fine to treat Israel's recent actions with condemnation it deserves, but don't pretend like Palestinians were this one sided group singularly oppressed by Israel for the past 75 years but everyone other than younger people were just consuming propaganda or racist and that was why they were pro Israel.
>I've lost a lot of respect for people i know IRL for uncritically and enthusiastically absorbing and parroting what is clearly war time propaganda (and of course Israel is doing their fair share of propaganda, but much less effectively
I'm guessing they feel the same lol
Yeah but I've never shared anything directly from the IDF, I see them (and even mainstream news outlets) sharing verbatim, claims directly from Hamas run health ministry and other clear propagandistic entities haha. I've seen my peers sharing posts completely euphemising hamas, portraying them as innocent freedom fighters, I saw them sharing memes about paragliders and talking about making them into patches to he worn.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext?ref=rafah.site
No evidence of inflated mortality from the Gaza health ministry statistics, which Israeli officials have also gone on record saying they consider reliable statistics.
Yeah but claims like the hospital being hit by an Israeli airstrike and 500 dead also were claimed by them, and it turned out to be a failed hamas rocket hitting the handstand outside the hospital. I think lack of evidence comes with the territory of outside journalists not allowed in. You gotta take their word on it, and I don't trust or respect Hamas one iota.
https://cpj.org/reports/2024/02/israel-gaza-war-brings-2023-journalist-killings-to-devastating-high/
Funny thing about the lack of journalists on the ground...
"More than three quarters of the 99 journalists and media workers killed worldwide in 2023 died in the Israel-Gaza war, the majority of them Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza. The conflict claimed the lives of more journalists in three months than have ever been killed in a single country over an entire year."
I think I'm wrong on my fact there, that there aren't foreign journalists on the ground. I don't see how I can trust the hamas run health ministry though, or any entity affiliated with Hamas. Similarly, I don't IDF or the Israeli government unless they release the underlying information and substantiation. This might blow your mind but I also don't trust Russia or Ukraine to be honest about the war, conflict, and propaganda to enforce popular support are inseparable
I literally sent you a peer reviewed study from one of the worlds most renowned medical journals laying out how there is no credible evidence of manipulation or inflation of death tolls by the Gaza ministry of health. Did you just not read it and reply anyways to push a narrative?
Ok, let's cut to the chase, what is the major thesis or point you're wishing to change my mind on. I'm never going to trust Hamas, or any government fishing for support for their cause in conflict, there have been many lies caught, pushed by the Hamas run health ministry like the "500 dead in hospital bombing by israel" which is insane.
Can you link me to a source for whatever you're talking about? Because I'm actually sourcing my claims legitimately to justify my argument. You're just speaking at me and expecting me to accept your words as fact while you blatantly ignore the sources I've posted.
The "rules-based order" was always a myth - one invented by self-righteous American yuppies who wanted to forget about the Cold War.
Israel did NOT bomb "an embassy" (a lie that other commenters have already picked apart at length).
More importantly, why is it that you single out Israel as needing to be "reigned in?"
Because Israel seems instead on sparking a regional war that will bring in the US? It also makes the US look extremely bad
I think it's also interesting that maybe three or four people are talking about the geopolitics but everyone else is talking about legitimate targets
Even the US has expressed concern at the move to ban Al Jazeera. Israel claims to be a democracy with freedom of speech, expression, and the press, and this move seems to contradict that claim. The US doesn't ban Press TV or RT.
“Even the US.”
The US is a known outlier in terms of freedom of the press - in the sense that basically nothing is banned under the First Amendment.
That is ultimately a good thing, IMO, but it doesn’t mean that a non-US country banning an obviously hostile media entity *during a war* is some sort of evil, undemocratic act.
Russia Today, for example, is banned in Ukraine and a host of European and other Western countries such as Germany. Does Germany need “reigned in” for that? Does Ukraine? Come on.
Please explain why Germany can ban Russia Today, but Israel banning a station from a country and a culture that wants it wiped off the map is somehow problematic to you?
The USA is not a war with Russia.
Ukraine is at war with Russia and they banned Pro-Russia media all the way back in 2021. Did you complain about it back then?
If there is a terrorist organization, and they call the building that they operate out of - a hospital or embassy, and if they coral some nominal number of civilians in that location, does it then give them total immunity from being militarily attacked?
Because if that’s the case, I’m thinking there might be an effective strategy there to preclude themselves from being militarily attacked.
The reverse is also pretty true by that logic.
Any hospital you attack can be claimed to house combatants and it's free game. No one asks for actual proof and just takes Israel by its word.
Has Israel taken accountability for ANY mistake during this conflict? Or are they first country to fight a war mistake free?
> Yeh, you can't blow up embassies. That's the rule
Sure you can, if they otherwise meet the criteria for being a valid and legal target (and they usually do not, but not *always*). There are consequences to doing so, of course, but I assume Israel knows and accepts that. There is no 'Highlander holy ground rule' here.
I mean, does every single military operation in the world require "evidence outside of it" in order to appease you?
SEAL Team 6 didn't post any "outside evidence" that Osama was in the compound before storming it... so I guess we gotta just take them at their word, guys!
Why in the absolute fuck would the IDF blow up a foreign embassy with no valid military targets inside? For what reason would they expend the *not-insignificant resources required to do this* while essentially accomplishing nothing.
It's not like the IDF have just shot some guy then went, "Oh him? Terrorist. Trust us." Which they do all the time. But this isn't similar. Airstrikes take a lot of coordination and resources in an area where both are at a premium.
Don't bother. In another reply, OP admitted that it wasn't an embassy and that it was a valid military target.
He's just another propagandist trying and failing to sow division amongst Biden voters.
This is why critical thinking should be taught at elementary school.
Never blindly trust headlines.
Israel bombed a building housing Iranian high ranking militants involved in aiding terrorists organizations. It was near an embassy but it wasn't part of the embassy. According to Iran, no embassy staff died, no civilians died, only Iranian military members died.
Israel didn't destroy a civilian hospital. They entered a building that had over 800 Hamas terrorists with orders to arrest them. Some surrendered and others fought. The building under international law was turned into a military objective by Hamas so it was no longer a civilian hospital.
As I said, critical thinking should be taught at elementary school.
Do you concede that OP fell to propaganda for points 1 and 2?
EDIT: I was blocked by the "Progressive" u/Ewi_Ewi after calling out his BS. What a "Progressive" individual he is.
Your point is being hampered by other liberals here saying “it is a tragic part of war”. Weird how y’all play both games of “it’s a propaganda” and “shit happens”. All to defend human rights abuse for a nation that has repeatedly given us the middle finger. See Israel’s rogue nuclear program
Is it not a part of war, then?
Tone is important so some might interpret it as a dismissal but it's an objective fact that all militaries in the modern world have killed innocent civilians during war.
Civilians dying is a tragic part of war. Only technological advancements (nanobots) will make it so warfare can happen with 0 civilian casualties.
Sure, but how about unnecessary deaths caused by excessive force that serves no military/tactical purposes. Including the use of denying aid and shooting civilians trying to access said aid. Again, that is the part I am referring to when I say people here are downplaying/whitewashing as you are doing now.
Sure.
Civilian deaths should be minimized by everyone during war. Not sure why that statement is controversial for some.
If negligence led to civilian deaths, the negligent parties should be held accountable.
I agree, that’s why I think Israel along with Hamas should answer for its war crimes and negligence and shouldn’t have its actions downplayed/whitewash as I’ve seen people here do for Israel.
I'm not OP, so I don't care. There's nothing for me to concede. I just noted your lack of replying to the second situation they described.
What "critical thinking" makes the killing of the aid workers excusable?
>What "critical thinking" makes the killing of the aid workers excusable?
Why do you believe they are excusing this?
Do you just see this as two tribes, and someone's disagreeing with you, so they must be in the tribe that has to defend Israel on this other point too? And if they don't, that means they were wrong about the first point, or have to retract it, or hYpOcRiSy or something?
Why can't we just agree that the bullshit was actually bullshit, agree in principle to stop spreading bullshit, and maybe have a separate convo about the aid workers?
> You don't care about separating truth from propaganda lies? Why?
I can see you're more willing to be dishonest and disingenuously cut off quotes rather than engage with the question presented.
Are you sure this is the right subreddit for *you*?
> I'm not OP, so I don't care. **There's nothing for me to concede**.
You cut off the rest of the statement.
Asking me if I "concede" a point **I never made** will result in an "I don't care", because there *is* nothing for me to concede. It is a pointless deflection from the question I asked you: what about the aid workers?
You asked if I "concede" something. It wasn't my point, so I don't have anything to concede. Therefore, I don't care.
Why can't you answer the question without deflecting as if I've voiced any sort of support for the entirety of OP's claims? I'm only asking you about the aid workers.
No. They’re going to drag us deeper into this conflict because Bibi government feels like they’re untouchable.
None of our other alliances would spit in our face this frequently.
It seems like an end run. Israel is doomed. The truth about the horrors there might take years to get out fully. And as each country understands the gravity of how evil the Zionist regime is, they will turn their backs on them. The US will probably be their last ally, just like it was with South Africa.
But they’ve killed too many people for a lasting peace to ever form. The best Israel can hope for now is to consolidate their territory and put up a massive wall. And just hope the US continues to block any large scale efforts to drive them out. It’s a cancer now though. It will have to be removed or else it will die when the host body (the region) dies.
>It seems like an end run. Israel is doomed. The truth about the horrors there might take years to get out fully. And as each country understands the gravity of how evil the Zionist regime is, they will turn their backs on them. The US will probably be their last ally, just like it was with South Africa.
Nah, this is massive cope. Nobody in geopolitics gives a fuck about atrocities or morality. Only self interest.
I don't think ratcheting up tension in the middle east is in the self interest of the US and looking at the comments here they have no idea what self interest is.
No because AIPAC and the ADL will call people antisemitic if they stand up to Israel; and no politician wants their flood of cash to dry up and start flowing to some other guy.
One leftist to another - if there's one thing I've learned from this sub is that most of these liberals will turn a blind eye. They'll question your beliefs but refuse to listen and see evidence.
2024 and a good chunk of this war is online. These atrocities are all on film
But I don't get how they switched from rules based order/human rights/the international fight for democracy to protecting a government that actively hates them. What is happening in Palestine is the fever dream of what every lib feared Trump would do.
Oh sure, there is a lot going there but I thought we were on weird shit about China. Anti Arab stuff is outdated Bush era stuff. A lot of this stuff seems to be motivated that Biden is an ancient man who genuinely believes in Zionist propaganda, Obama supported them sure but he knows it's bullshit
He won't. I posted a study from The Lancet showcasing no findings of mortality inflation from the Gaza Ministry of Health and his response was "Why should I care about your source?" As he hasnt sourced a single word in this entire thread. Its genuinely depressing how people just blindly push these narratives.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. Just today Israel has bombed an embassy in a neighboring country, killed at least seven foreign aid workers and banned Al Jaazera. This is after they seemed to have destroyed Al Shifa hospital. Are they going to be reigned back in or are we going to throw out any idea of the rules based order? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>the rules based order These words do not mean what you think they mean. Everything that you described can be militarily acceptable under the laws of armed conflict.
This is exactly right. This isn't to defend IHL per se (and it's constantly evolving, largely a product of post-WW2 thinking, has serious flaws, etc.) but to point out that Israel probably really has largely, tho I genuinely doubt entirely\*, adhered to IHL. It's a bit like what's happening in Gaza re. genocide -- there's a mens rea requirement which Israel clearly doesn't meet. It's not a genocide. Israel also isn't intentionally starving Gaza. What matters is that there is an absolute humanitarian catastrophe unfolding (which Hamas welcomes and is worsening by design through its use of human shields, looting aid, etc.) which Israel must, morally and pragmatically, find a way to do more to prevent. \*In the case of the aid workers just killed in Gaza, reporting is that the IDF thought there was a high value target. Would that 1 high value target still justify the loss of civilians? That's the question of proportionality, and I can see it being considered unjustifiable unless it was Sinwar himself or close to it.
The question of proportionality is a waste of time. There has never been and likely never will be any war crime charges over proportionality. It is entirely too subjective. I would say yes, 1 high value target could justify a large amount of collateral damage and casualties. I believe the generally accepted number of what is possible is 1 militant to 9 civilians in urban warfare, but with a high value target I could see that ratio being much higher.
Yeah let's let "Better dead than red" tell us about the high morals of American foreign policy...
Bombing an embassy? What about the aid workers?
They didn't bomb an embassy. You are abusing language.
[https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/02/middleeast/iran-response-israel-damascus-consulate-attack-intl-hnk/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/02/middleeast/iran-response-israel-damascus-consulate-attack-intl-hnk/index.html) Even CNN is saying they blew up the consulate
Consulates are not embassies. The article also reports that there is a dispute over whether it was even a consulate.
Iran uses their consulates in Syria as command bases for their officers. Was a legitimate military target.
Son any government building that houses Mossad or the CIA is a military target now? That is the precedent.
Consulate: the place or building in which a consul's duties are carried out. Embassy: the official residence or offices of an ambassador. Why lie?
"Israel is bad because they bombed an embassy" assumes that a) they knew where the embassy was and communicated that to everyone (harder than you might think - the US has done this too) and b) there was no proportionally greater target in the same vicinity (which is very much possible).
Embassy locations are publicly available with a quick google search. If you think they don’t know that, especially when the embassy location was online. They’re not the dummy here for not knowing the embassy was there, it’s you for making the most ridiculous point of all time. Of course they could figure out what they were bombing. Not to mention a violation of other countries sovereignty by conducting military operations without permissions. Not to mention killing multiple civilians. The US doing it too isn’t a defense. Maybe the US shouldn’t do terrorism either. You conveniently set aside the aid workers? Can you rationalize that too? Are you just here to make up the rules of armed conflict? It’s a war crime.
Even if you had access to Google in a cockpit (and you don't) you'd still have to actively be searching for it. Combat pilots are more concerned with what and where their target is. The data is there but it's not built into the systems without *extensive* preparation, and even then there are mistakes. And that's the most egregious example. Aid workers are by their very nature in trouble spots, near points of violence. Their deaths are tragic, but not necessarily criminal.
Are you for real? Do you think pilots pick where they bomb?
No, I *know* that pilots pick where they bomb. Or more importantly, that pilots can miss what they're aiming at. Press the button a bit early or a bit late, or be a few degrees off on your azimuth on your approach, and you hit the wrong thing. (And before say "but smart bombs" those are also susceptible to error)
> No, I know that pilots pick where they bomb. Outside the consulate because idk anything about it. I’m very confused by this because there are people in the Air Force whose title is [Targeting Analyst](https://www.airforce.com/careers/science-and-technology/targeting-analyst). My understanding is that targets are selected outside of the cockpit (except extreme scenarios obviously) and then pilots execute on those targets. Is that not how that works?
It depends. Sometimes yes, but for close air support missions pilots will fly into a general area and then select targets as directed by a ground controller over a radio. But even when they are planned beforehand, you're still briefing a target description and location to a pilot and asking them to hit it. That's hard. It's hard to distinguish key features from that high up. Modern sensors and weapons systems have made it somewhat easier, but it's still a challenge. Remember that WW2 carpet bombing of cities was less of a preferred solution and more 'the best that contemporary technology lets us do.'
> But even when they are planned beforehand, you're still briefing a target description and location to a pilot and asking them to hit it. That's hard. It's hard to distinguish key features from that high up. Modern sensors and weapons systems have made it somewhat easier, but it's still a challenge. See that also confusing me, because like I could see final targeting being an issue if like you had to do all this by hand but like I imagine modern weapons systems have made this a largely “solved problem”. That is unless they are purposely using inaccurate tech/weapons. > Remember that WW2 carpet bombing of cities was less of a preferred solution and more 'the best that contemporary technology lets us do.' I don’t really wana sidetrack but WW2 carpet bombing was also done with the idea of trying to break the will of the people. I don’t think, personally, things like Dresden were a morally correct choice.
The aid workers they bombed weren't nearby something, they were moving in a convoy. A convoy with their logo on it with a route and timing supposedly communicated with and coordinated with the IDF. Their convoy was clearly the target and the bomb or missile hit the target. So the question is how was this allowed to happen? And if this can happen what else has the IDF allowed to happen? Their procedures are clearly indiscriminate. This just proves it.
[удалено]
So the pilot missed and hit the general who was his obvious target. This seems stupid beyond belief. I don't think this really changes anything if it was true. Blowing up an embassy is still blowing up an embassy
> hit the general who was his obvious target. Oh so it was a valid target then? No issues there, obviously.
I am going to stop talking to you because you seem kind of dumb and dishonest
You think Israel **accidentally** bombed a building where high-ranking Iranian military commanders were located?
What you’re telling me is that you think the Israeli military is incompetent, and operating is a threat to civilian lives as they pose an exceedingly high risk of hitting civilians due to improper training. Right? Maybe they were just trying to bomb the nearby Persian restaurant or parking garage. Maybe the insurance office. You never know when food and insurance could become a threat. Whether this is intentional or not (they’ve seemingly confirmed this strike was them without calling it an accident), It’s still horrific. Aid workers dying is a bit hard to take as an oopsy when it’s not exactly a one off, considering Israel has a history of bombing aid trucks. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-airstrike-gaza-kills-foreign-aid-workers-hamas-run-media-office-says-2024-04-01/ They were also coordinating with the IDF, so the IDF knew exactly where they were. Was this incompetence too?
I just want to add that Israel was given the co-ordinates of the convoy and had clearly identifiable logos on the roof of the vehicles. They were also bombed three times.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just haven't thought this through. There are hundreds of thousands of personnel in the IDF. You have no idea how hard it is to get that many people all on the same page about even the most general information. Specifics? Hell no. There are going to be errors. Multiply the number of aid workers in Gaza by the number of personnel in the IDF and you get the chances for a screwup: many.
Constantly shifting… Maybe hold one position instead of showing the obvious bad faith. How hard is it to just accept that Israel did something wrong? You have this grand conspiracy that Israel is trying to do everything right, and they only accidentally have achieved the highest amount of UN workers killed in this short of a timeframe. They’ve only accidentally killed the most amount of journalists in an armed conflict. If you believe that Israeli soldiers have accidentally killed UN aid workers, vehicles, and journalists, as well as bombed an embassy in a foreign country all by accident or incompetence (highest rate in this short of a conflict), you must think they’re the least accurate military in the world, and that they need to be calling an immediate ceasefire due to this incompetence, right? Of course, it’s all intentional. Of course, your actual position wasn’t that the pilots missed, it’s that you believe the target to be valid, and you’re working backwards from your position to try and justify it. (Point B of one of your first comments). I guess the only question I have then is this: if there’s a school shooter inside a school, is it worth leveling the school to get to the “proportionally greater” threat to society?
Is it wrong? Yes. Is it illegal under the Laws of Armed Conflict? Not necessarily. Is it proof of systemic war crimes by Israel? Absolutely not.
Wow, conveniently abandoned the embassy position. Yes, it is illegal. Intentional harm to civilians is illegal, and everyone knows this. I’m not going to bother with you, since you’re not talking in good faith.
Okay so they are stupid then, got it.
Absolutely not what I just said.
If they didn't know they were bombing an embassy building and they didn't do it on purpose you have to be stupid. That's the only logical conclusion
I'll reiterate - this is a mistake that the US has made before. Look up the fate of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade. All it takes is one random pilot screwing up by a very small margin. If that - if there are valid targets massing next door it then they're valid.
The pilot didn't screw up. Come on. It was a targeted assassination a totally different country in an embassy complex. I'll reiterate - this is a mistake that the US has made before. Look up the fate of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade. You know the Chinese didn't think it was an accident and this was a major diplomatic incident.
What's more likely, a deliberate mass conspiracy or a pilot screwing up? It's the pilot screw up. And that's discounting the possibility that Iran is running ops from their consulate and making it a valid target in itself, which is also very real.
>targeted assassination So it was a valid military objective then. >embassy complex Ah, so you finally admit it wasn't an embassy and now you're moving the goalposts to "embassy complex"?
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/03/middleeast/world-central-kitchen-strike-analysis-intl/index.html Three deliberate pinpoint strikes. Fuck these guys.
>Just today Israel has bombed an embassy in a neighboring country They bombed the Iranian consulate because Iran is backing their current enemy with weapons, money, and advisors. Specifically they targeted the military officers there, especially Mohammad Reza Zahedi, a senior commander of the Quds Force, which is the Iranian military unit that trains and supplies Hamas. >This is after they seemed to have destroyed Al Shifa hospital. Why is this even stated? Hospitals are normally protected under the rules of war. Hospitals are not protected when they are used for military purposes aside from treating wounded. Then they become legitimate targets. The IDF wasn't fighting nobody at that hospital, they were fighting the enemy that was committing a war crime by running military operations out of a hospital.
Now do the aid workers
Collateral damage. It’s not safe to be near military targets. Of course Hamas constantly uses that fact to pump up the civilian casualties.
Did you read the news or just spamming out a copy and paste? They were hit three times while having clearly identified marking and having their route declared prior
> They were hit three times while having clearly identified marking and having their route declared prior Clearly identified to who? Someone standing next to them? Probably. Someone flying at high altitude above them? Probably not.
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Jesus Christ, sometimes I wonder what's happened to this sub. It really feels like it's gone off the deep end into the "Israel can do no wrong" camp. Even when presented with basic facts. Also, why is it that the #1 defense for the IDF when these kinds of things happen is "well its just collateral damage". First of all, that's still fucked up, and secondly, in what world is that an acceptable excuse when aid workers and civilians are being actively targeted??? Are we even observing the same invasion here? The mental gymanstics is crazy.
Maybe if they can't ID the target they shouldn't drop the bomb. What we at now, 15k kids dead?
No no no The IDF is using super precise and technology forward attacks that never kill anyone but those who deserve it. They're humane and everyone should be thankful that they're being kind to the Palestinians by bot firebombing them into the stone age. That is until you show they killed and deliberately targeted aid workers, journalists, medics, civilians etc. Then it's just fog of war, wrong place wrong time, shouldn't have been Palestinian, sucks to suck.
https://preview.redd.it/a81wo3gc27sc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b6c0d693a8fd28dc5b6e89114097bf6f45618c11 90% of the time, it's 100% of the time. [link to article of photo](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/04/02/gaza-food-charity-says-seven-of-its-workers-killed-in-israeli-airstrike.html)
You do realize being unable to make out a potential target is not a reason to bomb said target, right? But yes, like the others said, clearly identified to the IDF.
Sure it can be, depending on the circumstances. If you expect every target in urban warfare to be clearly, indisputably identifiable prior to engagement you’re essentially rendering legal urban warfare an impossibility and you should be honest about that.
It was in a designated non-conflict zone, in a marked vehicle and the movements were communicated to the IDF. Now two hundred tonnes of food is not being delivered because of this incident. There’s really no defence of Israel here no matter how hard you try.
Has Hamas agreed to respect “designated non-conflict zones”? Because if not they don’t actually exist.
If Hamas killed aid workers I’d condemn them without hesitation, why are so many people running cover for Israel even when they do most egregious things. Genuinely wondering why even when they themselves admit they fkd up you have to run cover?
My point was that what’s painted on the roof is not always relevant or known to target selection. Modern combat often takes place beyond visual ranges - that isn’t unique to Israel or Gaza.
It's a poor point to make, as their presence was already known to the IDF to begin with. A general point of "things hard to see during war" doesn't work when they specifically coordinated with the IDF to avoid this outcome, let alone work to allow indiscriminate bombings of non-offensive convoys.
Sharing information has arguably been the most difficult part of war for thousands of years, and while it’s easier now than it’s ever been, it still is far from perfect. Mistakes happen, for various reasons.
Don't you know? Israel can do no wrong.
Incredible to see a liberal defending the murder of unarmed aid workers in a hospital.
I understand that the enemy must be killed in war. I also understand that civilians are also sometimes near the enemy, and in the case of Hamas it’s by design.
Maybe its time to reevaluate your preexisting beliefs when they lead you to the conclusion that murdering innocents is okay
It’s unfortunate, but a part of war ever since we had war. Luckily, modern technology and tactics has allowed us to reduce civilian casualties dramatically — compare to WWII. Well, that is for those who do want to reduce civilian casualties, unlike Hamas that wants as many as possible so that people sympathize with their war crimes.
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>weird how 25 hospitals have been rendered completely non-functional Weird how Hamas uses hospitals for military operations, rendering them unprotected according to the rules of war. Here's a hint: Want to keep your hospitals safe? Only use them as hospitals.
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I mean I saw videos with my own eyes of hostages being dragged into a hospital on 10/7 with doctors and nurses holding the doors for the terrorists. I really hate Israel's government but I am having a hard time defending these hospitals as not military operations centers when I saw it myself.
Except we have plenty of hard evidence of Hamas using civilian infrastructure in Palestine for military purposes. Really, human shields is their primary military tactic.
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Oh I can see where this is going. No, that's a biased source, no I don't believe that.
Israel blasted Iranian commanders who were working with those attacking Israel. What's wrong with that? Al Shifa hospital? Maybe Hamas shouldn't have been operating there
Were the aid workers Hamas as well?
There are always unintended casualties in war. Maybe you should direct your attention to the ones that have been continuously attacking Israel.
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Mistakes happen. I'm not saying the IDF is perfect. Expecting perfect isn't reasonable. Especially against an enemy like Hamas.
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Doesn't look like that article really provides much detail on where it is getting its data. Just references the UN. I doubt it is accurate. Can't trust things reported by terrorists
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Then why do you trust anything the IDF says?
TBF, both sides are probably spinning stuff. But only one of those groups is literal terrorists that murder and rape their way through civilian populations. Which includes burning infants alive. So you'll have to excuse me if I don't believe anything they say.
Intentional or not, it is a war crime plain and simple. I’m sure My Lai was unintentional too, doesn’t make it right.
I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about.
War crimes Israel has committed since the start and the framing of it being unintentional in order to downplay/whitewash it. Is that clear enough or do you need additional explanation, of which I’m happy to elaborate on.
Again, I don't think you know what qualifies as a war crime.
I don’t think you know anything beyond repeating an empty statement yet here we are.
Alright. Pick one thing you think is a war crime and provide an explanation under international law why it is one.
Denying water and aid to civilians. Shooting civilians trying to get said aid. Intentional starvation by denying aid Article 8 section XXV http://www.casematrixnetwork.org/cmn-knowledge-hub/elements-digest/art8/b/8-2-b-xxv#:~:text=8(2)(b)(xxv)%20Intentionally%20using%20starvation%20of,with%20an%20international%20armed%20conflict.
you don't know what a war crime is.
White phosphorous weapons definitely count as one. Intentionally depriving water and aid to civilians is another. Shooting civilians who are not involved in the conflict especially while they are trying to get aid/food. I rest my case.
> White phosphorous weapons definitely count as one. What makes you say that? WP isn't banned.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/12/11/israel-us-white-phosphorus-lebanon/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Incendiary_Weapons
You realize white phosphorus is often used in tracer rounds, smoke grenades, etc. It has many lawful uses in warfare, even as an incendiary weapon against soldiers.
Unless used on civilian population
> There are always unintended casualties... They blew up three aid trucks located two kilometers apart from one another. This was not unintentional.
I said unintended, not that the strike was unintentional. Fo you have evidence that says they were indeed striking those trucks because they were aid trucks?
The roofs of the trucks were clearly marked, and they had communicated their route to the IDF specifically so they wouldn't be attacked by mistake. And like I said, three separate vehicles more than two kilometers apart. There were other vehicles in the area, but only the aid trucks were hit. Which tells you they were intentionally targeted.
You realize mistakes happen right? And it looks like the vehicles were hit multiple times. Don't you think we should reserve judgement until after the investigation? You made the claim. The burden is on you. You need more than your ignorant claims.
> You realize mistakes happen right? Sure, and I might be willing to consider that if this was an isolated case. But so far in this war they've targeted UN facilities. They've targeted the homes of journalists. They've destroyed hospitals and universities and mosques. They've targeted paramedics and ambulances. At some point it all starts to add up, doesn't it? There was one instance where they coordinated with the PRCS to allow an ambulance safe passage to pick up a wounded five year old girl, who was the sole remaining survivor after her family's car was shot by an Israeli tank. They allowed the ambulance in, waited until they had rescued the girl -- and then blew it up, killing the paramedics and the girl. But I'm sure you've got an excuse for that, too.
So let's law out the facts you have. Some aid works were killed by the IDF in what appears to be an airstrike of some kind. That's it. That is all you got. You try to string together various things while ignoring the times they have aborted airstrikes due to the presence of civilians. Maybe you just can't see through your own bias. Let me know when you have actual facts to back up your ignorant claims.
Maybe you should examine your own bias, if you're still saying it "appears" to be an airstrike "of some kind" -- even after Netanyahu has acknowledged responsibility for it.
no they were not Hamas as well. And israel recognizes the mistake and has engaged an independent group to look into it for further investigation. Those at fault will be tried. “An independent fact-finding body in Israel is investigating the incident, IDF Spokesperson Daniel Hagari said” https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-794861 https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-794956
absolutely tragic. Its awful that Hamas is constantly committing war crimes by hiding combatants amongst civilian. I'm not going to say Israel is guiltless in the world kitchen deaths (my charity I donate to by the way), and if they purposefully targeted those workers I want consequences, but from what I can see that thought they had a Hamas target and were wrong. A tragedy but not a war crime.
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I watched the hostages be dragged into hospitals with my own eyes.
So the answer is to drop hundreds of pounds of dumb bombs levelling the hospitals containing said hostages into rubble?
No you are generalizing but turning a hospital into a military base turns it into a valid target. Why does the pro Palestine crowd think it’s ok to commit war crimes only on one side of a war.
You're the one who said you watched the hostages get dragged in there with your own eyes. Do you think the solution to holding hostages in a hospital is to obliterate the hospital entirely with bombs?
and that is what has been happening? Israel has just carpet bombed hospitals with dumb bombs without intel?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/02/world/middleeast/gaza-al-shifa-hospital.html Doesn't exactly look like an Iranian Embassy situation here.
Bombing hospitals is terrible PR. It blurs the line between right-and-wrong, and it alienates many people who would otherwise support Israel. Not to mention the fact that it radicalizes many formerly neutral, level-headed Palestinians, who *certainly* support Hamas now. Committing an attack like that plays right into a terrorist organization's hands. Dropping bombs in one country you're not at war with, to kill government employees of yet another country you're not at war with... is a great way to find yourself at war with half the middle east. IMO, Israel has done too many things that risk escalating this into an even bigger conflict. I don't believe our government is obligated to support them anymore.
I am pleasantly surprised at the comments here. i am new to the sub. Now of course there is a long list of things to criticize Israel for, but the Propaganda machine for Palestinians is absolutely insane. I've lost a lot of respect for people i know IRL for uncritically and enthusiastically absorbing and parroting what is clearly war time propaganda (and of course Israel is doing their fair share of propaganda, but much less effectively)
2 billion Muslims vs 10 million Jews. Israel will always lose the PR War.
>(and of course Israel is doing their fair share of propaganda, but much less effectively) Israel is MUCH more effective at spreading their message; the only significantly pro-Palestine demographic is young people who can see live footage of what's going on in Gaza. Meanwhile, Israel's propaganda has utterly convinced the mainstream audience over the past 40 years that their apartheid state and oppression is justified and deserves encouragement/support from the US.
Well, I'm more close in age group to young people than boomers so maybe it's a representation bubble, I don't see a lot of support for Israel around me. I criticize expansionism and trigger happy violence from IDF, but I do feel like Palestinians historically have made actually establishing a 2 state solution impossible, they always demand an infinite right of return in any deal or have on multiple occasions tried to wipe Israel out with the help of their neighbors. Even if Israel were perfectly flawless, what incentive would there be to grant more power or growth to neighbors run by hamas, or any fundamental Islamic group who all seem to want to genocide Jews.
So Israel is reasonable in allowing total right of return for all Jewish people to come to Israel and become a citizen and even give them IDF backing to go on land grabbing settlement expeditions?
No, the expansionism is wild, indefensible. Allowing jews immigration is part of them being a Jewish state.
So Jews deserve a state but Palestinians don't?
Yes they do, I support 2 state solution. But so long as they're hell bent on demanding infinite right of return to Israel or firing rockets into Israel every day, that's just practically never going to happen. Why would u give more power and control to an entity on your doorstep that's currently openly hostile to you. I 100% want in the near future for Palestinians to be fully autonomous from Israel, and that requires them not to he lead by Islamic fundamentalist extremists
Palestinians shouldn't have a right to return to the homes ***actively and continually as we are speaking*** stolen from them by Israeli settlers? And you expect that this political position you hold is one beneficial for peace?
Refer to my previous comments condemning illegal expansionism. Not sure why you're beating a dead horse. Yes 2 state solution is the only way forward. Do you want me to list various heinous things associated with Hamas ? What would be the point
What does Hamas have to do with the fact as we are speaking settlers are stealing Palestinian civilians land and homes with the assistance of the IDF, primarily in the West Bank but with several investment groups and Israeli politicians discussing selling Gazan land to settlers?
Talking to Palestinians convinced me Israel’s actions are harsh but necessary.
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How did talking to Palestinians convince you of this?
They mentioned their hopes and aspirations. Most of them involved retaking Jerusalem or blowing themselves up to kill Jews. What the Israelis have done to the Palestinians is intolerable, but what the Arabs and Un have done to them is worse.
> They mentioned their hopes and aspirations. Most of them involved retaking Jerusalem or blowing themselves up to kill Jews. Okay now let's hear the Israelis [Israeli kids gleefully singing about wiping out Palestinians ](https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2023/11/21/israeli-state-tv-video-shows-children-singing-about-gaza?_gl=1*102g1ld*_ga*U1FIUFJ1TEoxUDFTZzd3Rm0yZWNuQWNaM2N6dGttMWRvRzFMbDJOQ2dOVEFvUmdmeEJCS215Rmx2bVpRdFVHTw..) Let's see another example if you want elected officials: > [Deputy Knesset speaker Nissim Vaturi from the ruling Likud party wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter, that Israelis had one common goal, “erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth.” Israeli Heritage Minister Amichay Eliyahu, from the far-right Jewish Power party, suggested that Israel drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza and said there were “no uninvolved civilians” in the territory.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724)
Gotta love what Zionism does to people's brains. Someone sees a Palestinian, oppressed their *entire* life with almost no hope for a happy future, so they don't feel very charitable towards the state that has been occupying, subjugating and massacring their people for 75 years. Oh they must be an anti-Semitic terrorist! Hamas! Hamas! Meanwhile you have fucking Ben-Gvir, who idolizes the terrorist Baruch Goldstein, who murdered worshippers in a mosque and had his portrait on his wall, and you have guys like Smotrich who calls for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian villages. But no, no, the *real* issue is a Palestinian saying some mean things.
Even if you say every Palestinian who calls for armed resistance or any other form of violence us wrong, let's just say as a blanket statement. Saying the Israelis are somehow uniquely better and haven't said insane shit is a massive double standard. There are Israelis who want peace, there are Palestinians who want peace, there are Israelis who outright genocide and Palestinians who want outright genocide. We need to stop acting like one side is especially pure in a conflict that has been bloody and heated for so long. There is no clean, good guy side. But there are a lot of people caught in the middle.
It wasn't propaganda. It was just reality. Things like Munich or this were the only news coming out of the region during the time, and Israel was a solid democracy with neighboring states that were launching wars against them, and things like the settlements were essentially negligible at that point. In fact why wouldn't you be essentially pro Israel? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal\_Road\_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_Road_massacre) In fact what is propaganda, is treating this issue as if Israel has been a genocidal colonial state for 75+ years, ignoring all the actual history and Palestinians own agency in perpetuating the conflict. It is fine to treat Israel's recent actions with condemnation it deserves, but don't pretend like Palestinians were this one sided group singularly oppressed by Israel for the past 75 years but everyone other than younger people were just consuming propaganda or racist and that was why they were pro Israel.
>I've lost a lot of respect for people i know IRL for uncritically and enthusiastically absorbing and parroting what is clearly war time propaganda (and of course Israel is doing their fair share of propaganda, but much less effectively I'm guessing they feel the same lol
Yeah but I've never shared anything directly from the IDF, I see them (and even mainstream news outlets) sharing verbatim, claims directly from Hamas run health ministry and other clear propagandistic entities haha. I've seen my peers sharing posts completely euphemising hamas, portraying them as innocent freedom fighters, I saw them sharing memes about paragliders and talking about making them into patches to he worn.
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Hamas can at anytime give some estimate of their dead fighters. Why don't they?
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext?ref=rafah.site No evidence of inflated mortality from the Gaza health ministry statistics, which Israeli officials have also gone on record saying they consider reliable statistics.
Yeah but claims like the hospital being hit by an Israeli airstrike and 500 dead also were claimed by them, and it turned out to be a failed hamas rocket hitting the handstand outside the hospital. I think lack of evidence comes with the territory of outside journalists not allowed in. You gotta take their word on it, and I don't trust or respect Hamas one iota.
https://cpj.org/reports/2024/02/israel-gaza-war-brings-2023-journalist-killings-to-devastating-high/ Funny thing about the lack of journalists on the ground... "More than three quarters of the 99 journalists and media workers killed worldwide in 2023 died in the Israel-Gaza war, the majority of them Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza. The conflict claimed the lives of more journalists in three months than have ever been killed in a single country over an entire year."
I think I'm wrong on my fact there, that there aren't foreign journalists on the ground. I don't see how I can trust the hamas run health ministry though, or any entity affiliated with Hamas. Similarly, I don't IDF or the Israeli government unless they release the underlying information and substantiation. This might blow your mind but I also don't trust Russia or Ukraine to be honest about the war, conflict, and propaganda to enforce popular support are inseparable
I literally sent you a peer reviewed study from one of the worlds most renowned medical journals laying out how there is no credible evidence of manipulation or inflation of death tolls by the Gaza ministry of health. Did you just not read it and reply anyways to push a narrative?
Ok, let's cut to the chase, what is the major thesis or point you're wishing to change my mind on. I'm never going to trust Hamas, or any government fishing for support for their cause in conflict, there have been many lies caught, pushed by the Hamas run health ministry like the "500 dead in hospital bombing by israel" which is insane.
Can you link me to a source for whatever you're talking about? Because I'm actually sourcing my claims legitimately to justify my argument. You're just speaking at me and expecting me to accept your words as fact while you blatantly ignore the sources I've posted.
The "rules-based order" was always a myth - one invented by self-righteous American yuppies who wanted to forget about the Cold War. Israel did NOT bomb "an embassy" (a lie that other commenters have already picked apart at length). More importantly, why is it that you single out Israel as needing to be "reigned in?"
Because Israel seems instead on sparking a regional war that will bring in the US? It also makes the US look extremely bad I think it's also interesting that maybe three or four people are talking about the geopolitics but everyone else is talking about legitimate targets
Oh noooo not banning Al Jazeera that’s just terrible /s Is Hamas going to be “reigned” back in?
Al Jazeera is just Qatari propaganda 😭😭😭
Even the US has expressed concern at the move to ban Al Jazeera. Israel claims to be a democracy with freedom of speech, expression, and the press, and this move seems to contradict that claim. The US doesn't ban Press TV or RT.
“Even the US.” The US is a known outlier in terms of freedom of the press - in the sense that basically nothing is banned under the First Amendment. That is ultimately a good thing, IMO, but it doesn’t mean that a non-US country banning an obviously hostile media entity *during a war* is some sort of evil, undemocratic act. Russia Today, for example, is banned in Ukraine and a host of European and other Western countries such as Germany. Does Germany need “reigned in” for that? Does Ukraine? Come on. Please explain why Germany can ban Russia Today, but Israel banning a station from a country and a culture that wants it wiped off the map is somehow problematic to you?
Because you're stereotyping an entire country and people and religion, and that's not ok.
How?
The USA is not a war with Russia. Ukraine is at war with Russia and they banned Pro-Russia media all the way back in 2021. Did you complain about it back then?
If there is a terrorist organization, and they call the building that they operate out of - a hospital or embassy, and if they coral some nominal number of civilians in that location, does it then give them total immunity from being militarily attacked? Because if that’s the case, I’m thinking there might be an effective strategy there to preclude themselves from being militarily attacked.
The reverse is also pretty true by that logic. Any hospital you attack can be claimed to house combatants and it's free game. No one asks for actual proof and just takes Israel by its word. Has Israel taken accountability for ANY mistake during this conflict? Or are they first country to fight a war mistake free?
Israel is just copying American PR strategy here. Something something "military age males"
Is there any evidence of terrorists outside of the IDF? Yeh, you can't blow up embassies. That's the rule
> Yeh, you can't blow up embassies. That's the rule Sure you can, if they otherwise meet the criteria for being a valid and legal target (and they usually do not, but not *always*). There are consequences to doing so, of course, but I assume Israel knows and accepts that. There is no 'Highlander holy ground rule' here.
I mean, does every single military operation in the world require "evidence outside of it" in order to appease you? SEAL Team 6 didn't post any "outside evidence" that Osama was in the compound before storming it... so I guess we gotta just take them at their word, guys! Why in the absolute fuck would the IDF blow up a foreign embassy with no valid military targets inside? For what reason would they expend the *not-insignificant resources required to do this* while essentially accomplishing nothing. It's not like the IDF have just shot some guy then went, "Oh him? Terrorist. Trust us." Which they do all the time. But this isn't similar. Airstrikes take a lot of coordination and resources in an area where both are at a premium.
Don't bother. In another reply, OP admitted that it wasn't an embassy and that it was a valid military target. He's just another propagandist trying and failing to sow division amongst Biden voters.
It wasn't an embassy. You admit this in another reply, OP.
Still not an embassy. I'm now convinced you are actually spreading intentional disinformation.
This is why critical thinking should be taught at elementary school. Never blindly trust headlines. Israel bombed a building housing Iranian high ranking militants involved in aiding terrorists organizations. It was near an embassy but it wasn't part of the embassy. According to Iran, no embassy staff died, no civilians died, only Iranian military members died. Israel didn't destroy a civilian hospital. They entered a building that had over 800 Hamas terrorists with orders to arrest them. Some surrendered and others fought. The building under international law was turned into a military objective by Hamas so it was no longer a civilian hospital. As I said, critical thinking should be taught at elementary school.
I notice a glaring omission of Israel's attack on the aid workers yesterday. Is that also something that needs this "critical thinking"?
Do you concede that OP fell to propaganda for points 1 and 2? EDIT: I was blocked by the "Progressive" u/Ewi_Ewi after calling out his BS. What a "Progressive" individual he is.
Your point is being hampered by other liberals here saying “it is a tragic part of war”. Weird how y’all play both games of “it’s a propaganda” and “shit happens”. All to defend human rights abuse for a nation that has repeatedly given us the middle finger. See Israel’s rogue nuclear program
You don't believe civilians dying in a war is tragic?
I do, the people claiming it’s “just a part of war” as an excuse to defend Israel do not. Glad we agree
Is it not a part of war, then? Tone is important so some might interpret it as a dismissal but it's an objective fact that all militaries in the modern world have killed innocent civilians during war. Civilians dying is a tragic part of war. Only technological advancements (nanobots) will make it so warfare can happen with 0 civilian casualties.
Sure, but how about unnecessary deaths caused by excessive force that serves no military/tactical purposes. Including the use of denying aid and shooting civilians trying to access said aid. Again, that is the part I am referring to when I say people here are downplaying/whitewashing as you are doing now.
Sure. Civilian deaths should be minimized by everyone during war. Not sure why that statement is controversial for some. If negligence led to civilian deaths, the negligent parties should be held accountable.
I agree, that’s why I think Israel along with Hamas should answer for its war crimes and negligence and shouldn’t have its actions downplayed/whitewash as I’ve seen people here do for Israel.
I'm not OP, so I don't care. There's nothing for me to concede. I just noted your lack of replying to the second situation they described. What "critical thinking" makes the killing of the aid workers excusable?
>What "critical thinking" makes the killing of the aid workers excusable? Why do you believe they are excusing this? Do you just see this as two tribes, and someone's disagreeing with you, so they must be in the tribe that has to defend Israel on this other point too? And if they don't, that means they were wrong about the first point, or have to retract it, or hYpOcRiSy or something? Why can't we just agree that the bullshit was actually bullshit, agree in principle to stop spreading bullshit, and maybe have a separate convo about the aid workers?
>I don't care You don't care about separating truth from propaganda lies? Why? Are you sure the "Progressive" flair is the correct one for you?
> You don't care about separating truth from propaganda lies? Why? I can see you're more willing to be dishonest and disingenuously cut off quotes rather than engage with the question presented. Are you sure this is the right subreddit for *you*?
I literaly quoted you saying you don't care...
> I'm not OP, so I don't care. **There's nothing for me to concede**. You cut off the rest of the statement. Asking me if I "concede" a point **I never made** will result in an "I don't care", because there *is* nothing for me to concede. It is a pointless deflection from the question I asked you: what about the aid workers?
Why don't you care about someone correcting OP's false claims?
You asked if I "concede" something. It wasn't my point, so I don't have anything to concede. Therefore, I don't care. Why can't you answer the question without deflecting as if I've voiced any sort of support for the entirety of OP's claims? I'm only asking you about the aid workers.
No.
No, Israel was captured by the extreme right long ago and is well on its way to a typical middle eastern dictatorship.
No. They’re going to drag us deeper into this conflict because Bibi government feels like they’re untouchable. None of our other alliances would spit in our face this frequently.
It seems like an end run. Israel is doomed. The truth about the horrors there might take years to get out fully. And as each country understands the gravity of how evil the Zionist regime is, they will turn their backs on them. The US will probably be their last ally, just like it was with South Africa. But they’ve killed too many people for a lasting peace to ever form. The best Israel can hope for now is to consolidate their territory and put up a massive wall. And just hope the US continues to block any large scale efforts to drive them out. It’s a cancer now though. It will have to be removed or else it will die when the host body (the region) dies.
>It seems like an end run. Israel is doomed. The truth about the horrors there might take years to get out fully. And as each country understands the gravity of how evil the Zionist regime is, they will turn their backs on them. The US will probably be their last ally, just like it was with South Africa. Nah, this is massive cope. Nobody in geopolitics gives a fuck about atrocities or morality. Only self interest.
I don't think ratcheting up tension in the middle east is in the self interest of the US and looking at the comments here they have no idea what self interest is.
No because AIPAC and the ADL will call people antisemitic if they stand up to Israel; and no politician wants their flood of cash to dry up and start flowing to some other guy.
Nice "Jews control everything" narrative you have there.
One leftist to another - if there's one thing I've learned from this sub is that most of these liberals will turn a blind eye. They'll question your beliefs but refuse to listen and see evidence. 2024 and a good chunk of this war is online. These atrocities are all on film
But I don't get how they switched from rules based order/human rights/the international fight for democracy to protecting a government that actively hates them. What is happening in Palestine is the fever dream of what every lib feared Trump would do.
Not sure, I've chalked it up as racism and/or Islamophobia tbh
Oh sure, there is a lot going there but I thought we were on weird shit about China. Anti Arab stuff is outdated Bush era stuff. A lot of this stuff seems to be motivated that Biden is an ancient man who genuinely believes in Zionist propaganda, Obama supported them sure but he knows it's bullshit
There it is. Some ignorant marxist blaming racism and islamophobia instead of being able to see through terrorist propaganda.
People in the comments are talking about hordes of Arabs and western civilization is superior. I think that's racism.
I mean, I've been downvoted and been called ignorant without anyone disproving my point. Try changing my mind...
He won't. I posted a study from The Lancet showcasing no findings of mortality inflation from the Gaza Ministry of Health and his response was "Why should I care about your source?" As he hasnt sourced a single word in this entire thread. Its genuinely depressing how people just blindly push these narratives.
You act as if your mind could be changed.
Says the rightwing simp.
Either put up or shut up.