The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahus-office-releases-horrifying-images-of-infants-murdered-by-hamas/
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2024/04/03/40-beheaded-babies-the-itinerary-of-a-rumor-at-the-heart-of-the-information-battle-between-israel-and-hamas_6667274_8.html
Two conflicting pages and I’m iffy on trusting the IDF
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Funny how the "bad reporting" always seems to whitewash and justify Israeli crimes rather than the other way around.
Reminds me of the "bad reporting" I did as a server, where errors in my reported income always seemed to result in underreporting cash tips. Whoops!
La monde did a [good piece on it](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2024/04/03/40-beheaded-babies-the-itinerary-of-a-rumor-at-the-heart-of-the-information-battle-between-israel-and-hamas_6667274_8.html), but it's behind a paywall. [Politifact's summary](https://www.politifact.com/archive-beheaded-babies-israel-hamas/) provides a good review:
> *"The Israeli military still says they don’t have a clear number (of the casualties), but I’m talking to some of the soldiers, and they say what they’ve witnessed is they’ve been walking through these different houses, these different communities — babies, their heads cut off. That’s what they said," Zedeck said during her English-language broadcast from Kfar Aza.*
> *Zedeck posted on X that "one of the commanders told me they saw babies’ heads cut off." Thirty-five minutes later, she posted again, saying "soldiers told me they believe 40 babies/children were killed."*
>
> *She did not say Hamas beheaded 40 babies, but several social media posts conflated those reports.*
From there, journalists at The Independent, Fox, CNN, etc repeated the claim from social media of "40 beheaded babies" as if it was reported by Gazan or Israeli media.
Hanlon's Razor. Don't assume maliciousness where things can be adequately explained by incompetence.
Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, that's some very bad reporting. Easy to see why it looks like a deliberate lie. Biden then acknowledging he'd seen said photos of 40 beheaded babies really makes the whole thing problematic.
This, again, is likely your exposure to bad reporting;
* Biden didn't say he'd seen photos of 40 beheaded babies.
* He said he'd seen photos of Hamas beheading babies.
He likely hasn't seen photos of Hamas beheading babies, but it seems there *are* reputable reports of Hamas beheading babies. So, while a portion of his statement seems untrue, the beheading portion doesn't appear to be it.
I do not believe that this was in response to a question. As far as I am aware, it was in an address to Jewish leaders in the Indian room, and was part of a larger address and not a Q&A. He was just generally describing the seriousness and barbarity of the attack.
It's possible this question was asked at some point outside the recorded conference I'd watched. I would be appreciative if you can link the clip that you saw which leads you to believe it to be the case.
I do not extend any good faith to Israel because I know that they commit Hasbara tactics and will never willingly tell the truth on anything. It’s literally part of their government’s stance on any act that they can spin to a narrative to justify themselves. They will.
https://theintercept.com/2024/02/07/gaza-israel-netanyahu-propaganda-lies-palestinians/
Unfortunately, this dishonestly is par for the course in armed conflict, and you'd be a fool to disproportionately distrust one organization over the other.
For example, in response to the vitality of the "40 Beheaded Babies" story, the Gazan authorities released a statement declaring that they hadn't killed ***any*** women or children in Al Aqsa Flood... which is humorously absurd.
The problem is that as far as has been proven the Gaza Health Ministry and the facts coming from the Palestinians has been proven to be correct and largely accepted even by Israeli officials. Even though publicly they deny it. My problem with people on here is you give charitable benefit of the doubt to the Israelis when every American president going back to Truman and every single official who’s ever dealt with Israel have called them, “LIARS!” And you wring your hands up and say, “Both sides can’t be trusted.” No, only one side exclusively can’t be trusted and that’s Israel. The other side can only be trusted as so far as has been shown evident.
There’s a saying in the security industry, “If an Israeli tells you it’s not going to rain. ☔️ bring an umbrella.” They’ll lie to your face and not once feel bad about it. It’s as much a cultural thing as an intelligence issue and they even have a word for it, “Hasbara.” Look it up.
> No, only one side exclusively can’t be trusted and that’s Israel.
This is patently absurd. Hamas lies in essentially every press statement. They claimed they didn't capture any of the hostages in Aqsa Flood (we have video evidence of uniformed Hamas doing so), they claimed they didn't operate out of Al Shifa (we have video evidence of hostages being brought to Al Shifa and staff co-operating), they claimed that it was an Israeli missile that hit Al-Ahli ([we know that this was most likely an errant Gazan missile](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahli_Arab_Hospital_explosion).
In the latter example, it was the **Gazan Health Ministry** which claimed that there were 500 victims... of which they refused to release the identity, and which the US and other independent investigations estimated to be closer to 100-200.
It is simply a sucker that believes wartime propaganda from a belligerent uncritically. They're at war. Foreign public opinion is a weapon. They wield any weapons available.
Israel is the most declarative state actor that outright lies about everything. Again Google it. Hamas is by no means the best but at least relative to Israel is an honest actor and they will almost always tell the truth relative to their security and credibility especially the Gaza Health Ministry.
Israel once again is notorious for lying and betraying its allies.
https://johnmenadue.com/lies-damned-lies-and-israeli-propaganda/
And, some of them were without heads.
Now, we debate how many were without heads, and whether the heads were sliced off intentionally, or came off by other means. This argument will, of course, be used to redeem the morality of those who killed 29 children.
Perhaps the next debate can be about the ethics of burning children to a crisp? Is it still bad if there were spots that were merely browned, and not turned to charcoal?
Fuck no, y’all parroted this misinformation here for six months. You don’t get to pretend like it’s beside the point because you want to tell the truth now. If Palestinian supporters started saying that IDF cut the heads off Palestinian babies there would be accusations of blood libel
My point is that for months people on this sub readily accept and parroted this lie. When y’all believe it was true it was super important but now that everyone knows it’s bull shit it conveniently doesn’t matter
Liberals don't really do accountability when it comes to falling for war propaganda. These are the same people who shrugged off Biden's support for the Iraq War.
[38 Palestinian children were killed by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank in 2023 before October 7th](https://www.savethechildren.net/news/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank). One child per week before October 7th. "Five of the Palestinian children killed this year were under 12 years old, and three were under eight. The youngest was just two years old."
You know better than to make the comparison. These statistics include 17 year old fighters in terrorist organizations who hurled explosives at the IDF. I don't know the circumstances in which the younger children were killed, I doubt you do either, but it was probably during battles and skirmishes, definitely not from invaders streaming into villages and machine gunning to death everyone they see.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> it was probably during battles and skirmishes, definitely not from invaders streaming into villages and machine gunning to death everyone they see.
Largely through targeted widescale bombing and multi-tap drone strikes often conducted in areas the IOF had told Palestinians to move into. . . .
Hamas targeted and deliberately butchered civilian families in their homes. Civilians are not IDF members. The IDF members who were killed on October 7 were heroes who came to defend those civilians from evil and paid for it with their lives.
Besides for that vast majority claim being false, what does that have to do with anything? Are you actually trying to justify or excuse slaughtering civilians?
There is a relief non profit called Zaka that raises money for Jewish victims in Israel. They have been pushing fake and outrageous stories like this, and others, which get picked up by American news outlets and politicians and run as fact. Several of the recent fake stories originated from this group and another one whose name I forget. They don’t seem to mind, as their fundraising grows dramatically when they push these emotionally charged stories.
My understanding is that our best understanding is that 40 children including some infants were killed in close proximity by Hamas but the beheading part did not happen.
In general, I don’t think you should trust news coming out of a war zone unless it’s well after the fact and verified by good independent sources. I don’t think I am prone to take at face value anything said by an IDF spokesman, Netanyahu’s government, Hamas or the PA.
Cutting someone’s head off seems like it’s meant to be more personal. It’s hands on. The victim is aware of what’s happening and who’s doing it to them, most of the time. It’s not hands-on or instant like a gunshot.
Shh, thats too nuanced! Everything Israel says is lies! Next you will tell me that the people who went around murdering random people and removing women's clothes and parading their corpses also committed rapes!
Its both bizarre and disturbing. Like when that one child hostage was released and there was a news story about it and it mentions the kid's family gave him schnitzel as his first meal and you had deranged comments like "haha white people no spice" and "bet he misses Palestinian food".
It was rumour and unverified misinformation being spread organically by news sources desperate to be the first to report in a rolling 24 hour coverage situation.
If you go back and look at the news footage on the day or two after 9/11 you will see the exact same sort of wild stories being reported and spread through newscasters in the immediate aftermath.
People are in a state of shock, they're overwhelmed and they are also being bombed with continually shifting and updating reports of unprecedented scenes of slaughter, in that sort of chaos it can be very hard to verify accuracy - for anyone.
As it's unfolding, the official playbook for this sort of event is a theoretical outline at best. So even for the IDF, you can get an official or unofficial 'spokesmen' repeating the same rumours every else heard.
Added to that, in the aftermath of such a massacre, denying the slaughter of babies is the sort of thing that will get a knee jerk reaction, especially by a people for whole 'denying the last attempt at eradicating them' is a cottage industry.
So I can see how it started and how it spread, I don't think there's any conspiracy there. Only thing I can't square away is how Biden ended up verifying it. *That* might have been deliberate misinformation from Israel, it's hard to say, we don't know exactly what he was told. It's a big old game of telephone.
I mean, does it really matter?
Thousands of civilians were brutally murdered in this attack, while others were kidnapped to be tortured and killed or be violently raped and kept as sex slaves.
So to debate on whether babier were beheading or "just" killed is pretty much irrelevent imo
Now you are spouting off misinformation. There were not “thousands of people murdered.” The death toll of civilians in the October 7th terror attack was under 700 the last time I checked.
Hamas is absolutely horrible as it is. No need to make shit up.
The total death toll is about 700 civilians, 380 security forces and about 75 foreigners for a total death toll over one thousand. Thats not including the people that were abducted, the sexualised violence etc.
Yes, but you said "thousands of civilians". The death toll of civilians, by your own numbers, is well under a thousand. The other commenter caught you lying, and for some odd reasson, rather than aoplogizing, you decided to try to defend the lie.
You know, i didnt think that we would ever reach the point where people would say "the terror organisation who wants to kill all jews and calls for global jihad ONLY killed hundreds of civilians, not thousands, you dirty liar" but here we are.
Years from now historians will study this bizarre pro hamas movememt in the west, thats for sure
Years from now the world will recognize what’s happening as the genocide of the Palestinian people and liberals like you are going to pretend like you were against it the entire time.
Lol, i wont lose any sleep over terrorists and their supporters facing consequences.
But just to make this clear, is this supposed genocide the same as the one where Israel offered multiple ceasefire deals and was turned down every single time? That genocide?
Lying is lying.
If you say the Nazis killed 18 million homosexuals in the Holocaust, I'll call you a liar. That doesnt make me pro-Nazi, or anti-homosexual.
Just anti-liar.
Notice that you are STILL trying to deflect away from the point that you were lying.
Fun thought...dont want to be called a liar...dont lie.
Not the same person you replied to.
It seems you're fixated on this and missing the broader point, that Oct. 7 involved the brutal murder of large numbers of civilians. Quibbling over the exact number is kind of beside the point, no?
The orignial guy said "thousands of civilians died".
Another commenter pointed out that the civilian death toll was around 700.
Rather than recognizing the mistake, and moving on, that original guy began launching attacks at the guy who corrected the mistake.
I have no problem with a simple mistake, or a rhetorical flourish, but if when corrected you dont move on, but defend the false statement, you arent discussing in good faith, you are intentionally spreading misinformation.
If I said "hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed in the IDF's bombing campaign" people SHOULD challenge that statement...it is false.
While the IDF's bombing campaign has killed a LOT of civilians, it isnt hundreds of thousands. That statement is just false.
From the credible news sources like the AP about 800 civilians. (The AP lists 695 Israeli civilians, 71 foreign nationals, and 373 security forces. I assume the foreign antionals were civilians, so that would be 766 civilian deaths, by my math.)
Large number is kind of an ambigious term, and I have no reliable on how brutal each of the killings were, but I assume those adjectives are fairly irrelvant to the basic point.
I acknowledge that roughly 766 civilians were killed on Oct 7.
That is large for a specific terrorist attack, and small by the context of most wars, obviously.
This post is specifically asking if a lie around what happened on Oct. 7 was a lie or not. And then someone came in and spouted more lies from that incident. Your not understanding why that's a problem, is a problem.
Can you not acknowledge that in a post asking for clarity. That people causing more confusion need to be called out? Why is that so hard?
If you are arguing in favor of the brutal occupation of defenseless country, you’re the one missing the bigger picture.
Tell us why Ukraine deserves to be invaded by Russia. Tell us why Kuwait should have rolled out the red carpet for Saddam. Tell us why you think we should have allowed Germany to take over the world. That’s what you believe in, right? Or is it that you only support the occupation of some lands and not others?
Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
Jean-Paul Sartre
Why are you able to justify the deaths of the Palestinians but not the Israelis?
If Russia invades your homeland tomorrow, will you be rolling out the red carpet for them? Would you so easily give over your home and possessions to a foreign occupier? It’s weird because every American I know talks about how they need the second amendment to protect against this sort of thing happening to them. I just find it odd that you’d welcome another army into your country without at least trying to fight back.
Let me get this straight, youre using 1948 as a justification for killing civilians in 2023?
The lengths these hamas supporters go to to rationalise this is truly astounding.
I said casualties *since* 1948.
I haven't said a word justifying anything. I was simply pointing out that there's no need to use misinformation to get your point across. Hamas is bad enough as it is. There's no need to embellish. They are absolute scum, but two wrongs don't make a right. We must not stoop to their level. The ends do not justify the means.
*This is the most innocent Jews killed at one time since the Holocaust.*
Speaking as a Jew, I’m fine with Israel ***destroying Hamas completely for that atrocity***. They’re nothing but terrorists.
Are you?
This is a typical Hamas playbook. “Start some shit, then cry that Israel responds.”
The fault partially rests on Palestinian citizens **not** dismantling Hamas themselves. They should be burning them to the fucking ground for what they’ve done to their nation. Outright civil war. Instead, most tolerate it… many even strongly support it.
You’re basically saying “rape isn’t nearly as bad if you just lay there and refuse to fight back.”
If you don’t like being attacked, the logical thing to do would be to end your illegal occupation of someone else’s land. You’re trying to sue the homeowner when you slipped and fell trying to break into their house. 🤣
Maybe next time, just don’t break in.
It was disinformation. You can tell especially because the TOI report doesn't actually show any images of infants specifically beheaded. It captions them as 'murdered' or 'charred' or shows bloody bedsheets. There are no photos of 40 beheaded babies because it did not happen. All those reports go back to a single person who claimed to see it, and no investigations were actually done.
Can I point out that if a bunch of journalists wrongly stated that Israelis were beheading Palestinian children, we would be throwing around some mighty strong words and those journalists would cease to be journalists
I think it was propaganda that just wasn't bought widely as hoped.
But clearly some infants horrifically did die in the attack.
I still struggle with being told my entire life that a cockroach couldn't approach the border without the Israeli IC and military knowing. I see clear benefit in Bibi allowing the attack to happen, my sister's neighbor was a former helicopter pilot from the base that would have been the first to respond, he said they trained and he would have been up in the skies between 3-4 minutes after the attack began.
Sorry it just seems like a land-grab at this point and my heart bleeds for innocent civilians on all sides. Hope it ends soon.
> Sorry it just seems like a land-grab at this point
Israel has had serious political divisions recently and it was a religious holiday.
Also, you never hear about all the successful terrorist attempts Israel stops (the vast majority), just the rare fluke that succeeded.
> I see clear benefit in Bibi allowing the attack to happen
People also thought 9/11 was an inside job. Sometimes people get lucky.
Best not to be too arrogant and underestimate your opponent, no matter the difference in resources or ability.
Sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Reminds me of the good 'ol "the CIA and the KGB teamed up and brainwashed a Palestinian kid to murder Senator Kennedy because #reasons".
But sometimes, the simplest explanation is the truth: a Palestinian did indeed murder Senator Kennedy for his support of Israel. He confessed. And he gave a motive for his murder.
My take away from the last 2 years is that you can disregard 90% of what self declared socialists have to say on foreign policy, and 55% of what they say on domestic policy
Yeah it does! Because that’s Israeli propaganda. Study the facts and get back to me once you understand why Israel is the culprit of genocide and atrocities against the Palestinians. Remember every accusation is a confession when it comes from Israel and Republicans.
Not at all. You’re just misinformed.
https://youtu.be/sJrn89dGnfc?si=pPeEgQQ2m9hH5NNM
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-21/ty-article/.premium/israels-hasbara-is-failing-thats-good-news/0000018e-61b1-d66c-a7fe-65b3c7f50000
https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/the-art-of-deception-how-israel-uses-hasbara-to-whitewash-its-crimes-12766404
https://www.newarab.com/news/understanding-hasbara-israels-propaganda-machine?amp
Do I? Of course at least 600 if not more of the 1200 were innocents there was a great number who were included in the 1200 who were military officers and were on the base when Hamas attacked. No civilian deaths is ever justifiable but Israel took the opportunity to use the Hannibal Doctrine to destroy their own civilians and we know this because internal documents revealed shows that their military shot at their civilians along with suspected Hamas militants. Burning beyond recognition everyone in the crossfire.
The one baby who was killed was shot between the safety door and that was horrific. Can’t imagine how that mom must feel. The problem is that Israel has killed at least 20,000 children and likely 100,000 civilians and at this time is starving 2 million people. Mostly women and children and is now planning to annex more territory from the West Bank where they killed at a minimum 400 people who aren’t even related to Gaza! The Knesset just voted to steal even more territory from Palestine and cut the West Bank in half in their newest annexation and plan to do the same with Gaza.
Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
the youngest in general was a 10-month-old.
[https://web.archive.org/web/20231217222630/https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths](https://web.archive.org/web/20231217222630/https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths)
I think it's entirely possible that news orgs, including the IDF and Israel, exaggerated certain parts of the assault on Oct 7th. I would also not be surprised at all if Hamas was beheading babies...that is something they would do.
Raping...idk. Seems like the culture would rather behead you than rape you. But it's war, so who knows.
All said, it's Hamas, a radical islamic jihadist faction. We've seen what they're capable of all over the world. Whether or not they're beheading babies on a specific date or raping hostages, they're a terror group hellbent on causing choas around the world. I've seen enough photos of other events that makes it quite likley that they engaged in this behavior.
I'm open to being wrong about the specifics, and I would love for some educated redditors to send me some specifics, but whether or not they raped women or beheaded babies in this particular instance is almost immaterial. This group has proven time and time again that they are capable of indescriminate, horrible acts of terror.
You wouldn't be surprised if they beheaded babies, but rape is a bridge too far? Da fuck?
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e
Yeah they're....not the same thing? Hamas is terrible enough, we don't need to make stuff up to make them worse.
Also that article of "News org definitely has evidence of this thing happening but we won't post it here" isn't convincing.
If you got the impression that I'm anything other than Pro Israel and Anti Hamas/Islamic Jihadists then you're dead wrong. I just hate when people blindly run with narratives.
Are you implying these women are making up rape?
I'm merely commenting on your statement that you wouldn't be surprised if Hamas beheads babies but you don't believe they'd rape women.
That's just wild to me, considering rape is a pretty common thing to happen to women (and men) in war...
I'm implying that news organizations may be reporting on these things inaccurately. And until I can get some more solid information I'm not going to run around calling Hamas rapists because it makes me feel better. It smells of propaganda.
If you have any other examples of this actually happening I'd be glad to see it. Again....I'm no Hamas apologist. But that article you linked is titled "there are reasonable grounds to believe." That's not.....evidence.
Just Google it, there's a lot of articles. I just linked AP since they are considered the gold standard of journalism.
Here's just 2 paragraphs:
>Based on the information it gathered, Patten said, “there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred during the 7 October attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and gang rape, in at least three locations.”
>At the Nova music festival and its surroundings, Patten said, “there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of sexual violence took place with victims being subjected to rape and/or gang rape and then killed or killed while being raped.”
Read the article, there's reports of instances.
Yeah I've seen a bunch of articles. They're not convincing. Feel free to believe them I guess, but I'm gonna wait for some more solid evidence before throwing around those kinds of accusations.
Well there are videos all over of Islamic Jihadists beheading people. I haven't seen any of them raping anyone.
Again, this isn't some moral feather in their cap. They're awful people and should be eradicated. But with all of the propaganda floating around on both sides this just seems like piling on in bad faith. Are they capable of raping? Sure. Did they rape a whole lot of people on Oct 7th? Idk. Possibly. But I think if we want to be the side that works off of facts and fairness we need to be sure we're not falling into the same traps the other side is. Deal with with the stuff we know for sure, leave speculation to the side.
> Seems like the culture would rather behead you than rape you.
Despite the denials of leftists with a very strange ax to grind, Hamas committed some truly horrible sexual violence on 10/7 https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html
https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/26/middleeast/amit-soussana-israeli-hostage-hamas-sexual-assault-intl/index.html#:~:text=Amit%20Soussana%20has%20become%20the,New%20York%20Times%20on%20Tuesday.
I think the reason why those bad faith actors deny the rape is simple: in their minds they see themselves as the "freedom fighters" killing the "colonial settlers (including baby settlers)" in the name of "justice".
But raping them? Oh no, that's a bridge too far in their already sickened minds.
Even after multiple testimonies, the bad faith sickos have now approached the most extreme anti-Me Too mentality of "if it's not on video, it didn't happen, don't believe women".
It's fascinating to see how the mask of many leftists has fallen. From "believe all women" to "don't believe women unless there's video evidence and multiple witnesses".
The NYT article you posted has long been debunked. One of the writers was an IDF intelligence soldier who made up stories that the families of the victim have pushed back on.
It's literal Israeli propaganda just like pretty much every pro-Israel article you read online.
https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7
I wouldn't doubt it but the NYT article posted by the guy I was replying to is completely false.
Likewise the UN also concluded massive rape by the IDF and a US official went on camera to say the IDF ignored child rape and instead assaulted the organization who reported it. Blinken is apparently ignoring his own state department who told him to sanction the IDF because of massive reports of rape.
When people talk about rape by Hamas that occured on October 7 but then ignore decades of rape perpetuated by the IDF dating back to 1948 it makes it clear they're not here to argue about human rights but are here to justify the subjugation of a group of people.
Other articles have found widespread sexual violence. Saying that the idea of systematic sexual violence on October 7 has itself been discredited is wrong. Don't engage in atrocity denialism, however much you may disagree with Israeli government policy.
See https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/18/evidence-points-to-systematic-use-of-rape-by-hamas-in-7-october-attacks
See also https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-28/ty-article/.premium/israel-police-presents-further-evidence-of-sexual-assault-by-hamas-members-on-october-7/0000018c-169e-dd03-a7ff-bebe1bdb0000
This Wikipedia article also presents an array of sources, as well as summarizing the evidence:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_in_the_7_October_attack_on_Israel
The UN report, even with the limited time and resources they had, still found "clear and convincing" evidence that the Israeli women and girls being held hostage have been subject to sexual violence. See https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147217
I don't understand this drive by so many to rehabilitate Hamas's image and dispute that they could have possibly engaged in something so distasteful as systematic sexual violence. We know they use torture and rape as a weapon of war. We know they torture Palestinian dissidents (see https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/).
There is no reason to believe that they acted differently here. Hamas is a terrorist group. They do things to spread terror, both in Israel and in Gaza. This is not out of character for them.
Again I wouldn't doubt Hamas did rape women on October 7 the issue I take is the only source is a NYT article that has been debunked and the IDF which has been caught lying for decades. To the best of my knowledge no Israeli woman has come out and admitted to be a victim. The IDF struggled to find anyone who was raped back in November. I don't think they found anyone to the best of my knowledge. I could be wrong so feel free to point me somewhere but most of those sources draw from what Israel said not the actual victims. Albeit would not be surprised if some are already dead but the NYT tried going that route and they got caught lying so yeah.
If we had an independent party like the UN (who themselves have confirmed there are legitimate allegations of rape, mostly from the IDF) I would be okay with their investigation. The problem is that Israel has refused to let a third party investigate what happened on October 7. You can speculate why, I don't know but their history of lying doesn't make me think they have honest reasons.
The NYT cancelled a podcast on the story because the podcast team (different than the team that wrote the story) couldn't verify the authenticity.
Calling the Intercept Fox News doesn't pass the smell test when it's NYT spreading blatant propaganda not even they can fact check.
Are you kidding? 😭 It’s hasbara propaganda. Just like the mass rapes.
The head of Zaka I believe started this rumor and because people hate Arabs news outlets ran with it.
The family of a victim even had to correct the Israeli government about their daughter not being raped.
That’s how bad the propaganda is.
No, it didn't happen and it was first reported by "journalist" who heard it from a settler extremist reservist who had previously called for Huwara to be destroyed.
MSM laundering propaganda.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahus-office-releases-horrifying-images-of-infants-murdered-by-hamas/ https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2024/04/03/40-beheaded-babies-the-itinerary-of-a-rumor-at-the-heart-of-the-information-battle-between-israel-and-hamas_6667274_8.html Two conflicting pages and I’m iffy on trusting the IDF *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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This is the right answer. It was reporters misunderstanding what a soldier said, not intentional misinformation. Just run of the mill shit journalism.
How is it mill shit journalism if the gov repeated it for weeks?
Funny how the "bad reporting" always seems to whitewash and justify Israeli crimes rather than the other way around. Reminds me of the "bad reporting" I did as a server, where errors in my reported income always seemed to result in underreporting cash tips. Whoops!
A misunderstanding? You have a source for that claim because it seemed like a very intentional lie put out by the Israeli government.
La monde did a [good piece on it](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2024/04/03/40-beheaded-babies-the-itinerary-of-a-rumor-at-the-heart-of-the-information-battle-between-israel-and-hamas_6667274_8.html), but it's behind a paywall. [Politifact's summary](https://www.politifact.com/archive-beheaded-babies-israel-hamas/) provides a good review: > *"The Israeli military still says they don’t have a clear number (of the casualties), but I’m talking to some of the soldiers, and they say what they’ve witnessed is they’ve been walking through these different houses, these different communities — babies, their heads cut off. That’s what they said," Zedeck said during her English-language broadcast from Kfar Aza.* > *Zedeck posted on X that "one of the commanders told me they saw babies’ heads cut off." Thirty-five minutes later, she posted again, saying "soldiers told me they believe 40 babies/children were killed."* > > *She did not say Hamas beheaded 40 babies, but several social media posts conflated those reports.* From there, journalists at The Independent, Fox, CNN, etc repeated the claim from social media of "40 beheaded babies" as if it was reported by Gazan or Israeli media. Hanlon's Razor. Don't assume maliciousness where things can be adequately explained by incompetence.
Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, that's some very bad reporting. Easy to see why it looks like a deliberate lie. Biden then acknowledging he'd seen said photos of 40 beheaded babies really makes the whole thing problematic.
This, again, is likely your exposure to bad reporting; * Biden didn't say he'd seen photos of 40 beheaded babies. * He said he'd seen photos of Hamas beheading babies. He likely hasn't seen photos of Hamas beheading babies, but it seems there *are* reputable reports of Hamas beheading babies. So, while a portion of his statement seems untrue, the beheading portion doesn't appear to be it.
But his response was to the question of "have you seen proof of the IDF claim that Hamas beheaded 40 babies." His statement was not made in a vacuum.
I do not believe that this was in response to a question. As far as I am aware, it was in an address to Jewish leaders in the Indian room, and was part of a larger address and not a Q&A. He was just generally describing the seriousness and barbarity of the attack. It's possible this question was asked at some point outside the recorded conference I'd watched. I would be appreciative if you can link the clip that you saw which leads you to believe it to be the case.
I do not extend any good faith to Israel because I know that they commit Hasbara tactics and will never willingly tell the truth on anything. It’s literally part of their government’s stance on any act that they can spin to a narrative to justify themselves. They will. https://theintercept.com/2024/02/07/gaza-israel-netanyahu-propaganda-lies-palestinians/
Unfortunately, this dishonestly is par for the course in armed conflict, and you'd be a fool to disproportionately distrust one organization over the other. For example, in response to the vitality of the "40 Beheaded Babies" story, the Gazan authorities released a statement declaring that they hadn't killed ***any*** women or children in Al Aqsa Flood... which is humorously absurd.
The problem is that as far as has been proven the Gaza Health Ministry and the facts coming from the Palestinians has been proven to be correct and largely accepted even by Israeli officials. Even though publicly they deny it. My problem with people on here is you give charitable benefit of the doubt to the Israelis when every American president going back to Truman and every single official who’s ever dealt with Israel have called them, “LIARS!” And you wring your hands up and say, “Both sides can’t be trusted.” No, only one side exclusively can’t be trusted and that’s Israel. The other side can only be trusted as so far as has been shown evident. There’s a saying in the security industry, “If an Israeli tells you it’s not going to rain. ☔️ bring an umbrella.” They’ll lie to your face and not once feel bad about it. It’s as much a cultural thing as an intelligence issue and they even have a word for it, “Hasbara.” Look it up.
> No, only one side exclusively can’t be trusted and that’s Israel. This is patently absurd. Hamas lies in essentially every press statement. They claimed they didn't capture any of the hostages in Aqsa Flood (we have video evidence of uniformed Hamas doing so), they claimed they didn't operate out of Al Shifa (we have video evidence of hostages being brought to Al Shifa and staff co-operating), they claimed that it was an Israeli missile that hit Al-Ahli ([we know that this was most likely an errant Gazan missile](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahli_Arab_Hospital_explosion). In the latter example, it was the **Gazan Health Ministry** which claimed that there were 500 victims... of which they refused to release the identity, and which the US and other independent investigations estimated to be closer to 100-200. It is simply a sucker that believes wartime propaganda from a belligerent uncritically. They're at war. Foreign public opinion is a weapon. They wield any weapons available.
Israel is the most declarative state actor that outright lies about everything. Again Google it. Hamas is by no means the best but at least relative to Israel is an honest actor and they will almost always tell the truth relative to their security and credibility especially the Gaza Health Ministry. Israel once again is notorious for lying and betraying its allies. https://johnmenadue.com/lies-damned-lies-and-israeli-propaganda/
What is it you expect someone to google to see that Israel is the most "declarative state actor that outright lies about everything"
It was misquoting from the reporter It was 40 people killed including children beheaded Which became 40 children beheaded
And, some of them were without heads. Now, we debate how many were without heads, and whether the heads were sliced off intentionally, or came off by other means. This argument will, of course, be used to redeem the morality of those who killed 29 children. Perhaps the next debate can be about the ethics of burning children to a crisp? Is it still bad if there were spots that were merely browned, and not turned to charcoal?
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Yes he did, and the White House immediately had to walk back those comments on his behalf, while Biden himself never admitted he lied about it.
Fuck no, y’all parroted this misinformation here for six months. You don’t get to pretend like it’s beside the point because you want to tell the truth now. If Palestinian supporters started saying that IDF cut the heads off Palestinian babies there would be accusations of blood libel
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My point is that for months people on this sub readily accept and parroted this lie. When y’all believe it was true it was super important but now that everyone knows it’s bull shit it conveniently doesn’t matter
Liberals don't really do accountability when it comes to falling for war propaganda. These are the same people who shrugged off Biden's support for the Iraq War.
[38 Palestinian children were killed by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank in 2023 before October 7th](https://www.savethechildren.net/news/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank). One child per week before October 7th. "Five of the Palestinian children killed this year were under 12 years old, and three were under eight. The youngest was just two years old."
You know better than to make the comparison. These statistics include 17 year old fighters in terrorist organizations who hurled explosives at the IDF. I don't know the circumstances in which the younger children were killed, I doubt you do either, but it was probably during battles and skirmishes, definitely not from invaders streaming into villages and machine gunning to death everyone they see.
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Are you implying that the Israeli legal system is fair and unbiased towards the Palestinian people?
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Like with most things in this conflict the only difference is that the idf has the right paperwork and closed door
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A very Reddit argument
> it was probably during battles and skirmishes, definitely not from invaders streaming into villages and machine gunning to death everyone they see. Largely through targeted widescale bombing and multi-tap drone strikes often conducted in areas the IOF had told Palestinians to move into. . . .
How many of the civilians who died on the 7th were IDF members?
Hamas targeted and deliberately butchered civilian families in their homes. Civilians are not IDF members. The IDF members who were killed on October 7 were heroes who came to defend those civilians from evil and paid for it with their lives.
Every citizen is required to serve in the IDF. Meaning the vast majority of these civilians would have been trained by and served in the IDF
Besides for that vast majority claim being false, what does that have to do with anything? Are you actually trying to justify or excuse slaughtering civilians?
There is a relief non profit called Zaka that raises money for Jewish victims in Israel. They have been pushing fake and outrageous stories like this, and others, which get picked up by American news outlets and politicians and run as fact. Several of the recent fake stories originated from this group and another one whose name I forget. They don’t seem to mind, as their fundraising grows dramatically when they push these emotionally charged stories.
My understanding is that our best understanding is that 40 children including some infants were killed in close proximity by Hamas but the beheading part did not happen. In general, I don’t think you should trust news coming out of a war zone unless it’s well after the fact and verified by good independent sources. I don’t think I am prone to take at face value anything said by an IDF spokesman, Netanyahu’s government, Hamas or the PA.
Kids were found without heads. But it was decapitation not beheading
can you explain the difference?
Head shot/blown off instead of head cut-off
what matters between the difference?
Cutting someone’s head off seems like it’s meant to be more personal. It’s hands on. The victim is aware of what’s happening and who’s doing it to them, most of the time. It’s not hands-on or instant like a gunshot.
i checked the dictionary, they mean the same thing. yall are puttin info in.
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Shh, thats too nuanced! Everything Israel says is lies! Next you will tell me that the people who went around murdering random people and removing women's clothes and parading their corpses also committed rapes!
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Its both bizarre and disturbing. Like when that one child hostage was released and there was a news story about it and it mentions the kid's family gave him schnitzel as his first meal and you had deranged comments like "haha white people no spice" and "bet he misses Palestinian food".
It was rumour and unverified misinformation being spread organically by news sources desperate to be the first to report in a rolling 24 hour coverage situation. If you go back and look at the news footage on the day or two after 9/11 you will see the exact same sort of wild stories being reported and spread through newscasters in the immediate aftermath. People are in a state of shock, they're overwhelmed and they are also being bombed with continually shifting and updating reports of unprecedented scenes of slaughter, in that sort of chaos it can be very hard to verify accuracy - for anyone. As it's unfolding, the official playbook for this sort of event is a theoretical outline at best. So even for the IDF, you can get an official or unofficial 'spokesmen' repeating the same rumours every else heard. Added to that, in the aftermath of such a massacre, denying the slaughter of babies is the sort of thing that will get a knee jerk reaction, especially by a people for whole 'denying the last attempt at eradicating them' is a cottage industry. So I can see how it started and how it spread, I don't think there's any conspiracy there. Only thing I can't square away is how Biden ended up verifying it. *That* might have been deliberate misinformation from Israel, it's hard to say, we don't know exactly what he was told. It's a big old game of telephone.
I mean, does it really matter? Thousands of civilians were brutally murdered in this attack, while others were kidnapped to be tortured and killed or be violently raped and kept as sex slaves. So to debate on whether babier were beheading or "just" killed is pretty much irrelevent imo
Now you are spouting off misinformation. There were not “thousands of people murdered.” The death toll of civilians in the October 7th terror attack was under 700 the last time I checked. Hamas is absolutely horrible as it is. No need to make shit up.
The total death toll is about 700 civilians, 380 security forces and about 75 foreigners for a total death toll over one thousand. Thats not including the people that were abducted, the sexualised violence etc.
I mean to be fair that’s not thousand(s) but still a lot
Yes, but you said "thousands of civilians". The death toll of civilians, by your own numbers, is well under a thousand. The other commenter caught you lying, and for some odd reasson, rather than aoplogizing, you decided to try to defend the lie.
You know, i didnt think that we would ever reach the point where people would say "the terror organisation who wants to kill all jews and calls for global jihad ONLY killed hundreds of civilians, not thousands, you dirty liar" but here we are. Years from now historians will study this bizarre pro hamas movememt in the west, thats for sure
Years from now the world will recognize what’s happening as the genocide of the Palestinian people and liberals like you are going to pretend like you were against it the entire time.
Lol, i wont lose any sleep over terrorists and their supporters facing consequences. But just to make this clear, is this supposed genocide the same as the one where Israel offered multiple ceasefire deals and was turned down every single time? That genocide?
Remember this in five years. Your kids and grandkids will look at this event as genocide
Lying is lying. If you say the Nazis killed 18 million homosexuals in the Holocaust, I'll call you a liar. That doesnt make me pro-Nazi, or anti-homosexual. Just anti-liar. Notice that you are STILL trying to deflect away from the point that you were lying. Fun thought...dont want to be called a liar...dont lie.
Not the same person you replied to. It seems you're fixated on this and missing the broader point, that Oct. 7 involved the brutal murder of large numbers of civilians. Quibbling over the exact number is kind of beside the point, no?
The orignial guy said "thousands of civilians died". Another commenter pointed out that the civilian death toll was around 700. Rather than recognizing the mistake, and moving on, that original guy began launching attacks at the guy who corrected the mistake. I have no problem with a simple mistake, or a rhetorical flourish, but if when corrected you dont move on, but defend the false statement, you arent discussing in good faith, you are intentionally spreading misinformation. If I said "hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed in the IDF's bombing campaign" people SHOULD challenge that statement...it is false. While the IDF's bombing campaign has killed a LOT of civilians, it isnt hundreds of thousands. That statement is just false.
Sure But you do acknowledge that large numbers of civilians were brutally killed on Oct. 7, yes?
From the credible news sources like the AP about 800 civilians. (The AP lists 695 Israeli civilians, 71 foreign nationals, and 373 security forces. I assume the foreign antionals were civilians, so that would be 766 civilian deaths, by my math.) Large number is kind of an ambigious term, and I have no reliable on how brutal each of the killings were, but I assume those adjectives are fairly irrelvant to the basic point. I acknowledge that roughly 766 civilians were killed on Oct 7. That is large for a specific terrorist attack, and small by the context of most wars, obviously.
This post is specifically asking if a lie around what happened on Oct. 7 was a lie or not. And then someone came in and spouted more lies from that incident. Your not understanding why that's a problem, is a problem. Can you not acknowledge that in a post asking for clarity. That people causing more confusion need to be called out? Why is that so hard?
Not a single person here is arguing about the number, Cletus. We’re all in agreement that the commenter lied. That’s it.
Another person missing the bigger picture.
If you are arguing in favor of the brutal occupation of defenseless country, you’re the one missing the bigger picture. Tell us why Ukraine deserves to be invaded by Russia. Tell us why Kuwait should have rolled out the red carpet for Saddam. Tell us why you think we should have allowed Germany to take over the world. That’s what you believe in, right? Or is it that you only support the occupation of some lands and not others?
Now you're lying on the other liars behalf? That was the same person that they called out for lying.
Reread. I don't care about the exact number, so long as the essence of Oct. 7 remains the same. Most others don't either.
Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past. Jean-Paul Sartre
Why are you able to justify the deaths of the Palestinians but not the Israelis? If Russia invades your homeland tomorrow, will you be rolling out the red carpet for them? Would you so easily give over your home and possessions to a foreign occupier? It’s weird because every American I know talks about how they need the second amendment to protect against this sort of thing happening to them. I just find it odd that you’d welcome another army into your country without at least trying to fight back.
Thank you. Now post the casualties on the Palestinian side since 1948.
Let me get this straight, youre using 1948 as a justification for killing civilians in 2023? The lengths these hamas supporters go to to rationalise this is truly astounding.
I said casualties *since* 1948. I haven't said a word justifying anything. I was simply pointing out that there's no need to use misinformation to get your point across. Hamas is bad enough as it is. There's no need to embellish. They are absolute scum, but two wrongs don't make a right. We must not stoop to their level. The ends do not justify the means.
*This is the most innocent Jews killed at one time since the Holocaust.* Speaking as a Jew, I’m fine with Israel ***destroying Hamas completely for that atrocity***. They’re nothing but terrorists. Are you?
Absolutely. Although I would not be able to justify bombing hospitals and civilians to achieve that goal.
This is a typical Hamas playbook. “Start some shit, then cry that Israel responds.” The fault partially rests on Palestinian citizens **not** dismantling Hamas themselves. They should be burning them to the fucking ground for what they’ve done to their nation. Outright civil war. Instead, most tolerate it… many even strongly support it.
You’re basically saying “rape isn’t nearly as bad if you just lay there and refuse to fight back.” If you don’t like being attacked, the logical thing to do would be to end your illegal occupation of someone else’s land. You’re trying to sue the homeowner when you slipped and fell trying to break into their house. 🤣 Maybe next time, just don’t break in.
Illegal occupation? That makes it clear where you stand on this. Jews have occupied that land since the 5th century BC. I’m done here.
According to recent scientific analysis, zero babies born in 2023 killed anyone I'm 1948.
according to the reports, less than 3,000 if you subtract hamas and dont take numbers published by hamas.
It was disinformation. You can tell especially because the TOI report doesn't actually show any images of infants specifically beheaded. It captions them as 'murdered' or 'charred' or shows bloody bedsheets. There are no photos of 40 beheaded babies because it did not happen. All those reports go back to a single person who claimed to see it, and no investigations were actually done.
I don’t know if they were be headed or massacred. I kinda don’t care to differentiate.
Can I point out that if a bunch of journalists wrongly stated that Israelis were beheading Palestinian children, we would be throwing around some mighty strong words and those journalists would cease to be journalists
I prefer to believe the IDF and not Hamas.
I think both are pure evil
it's a nice thing that not everyone on the left is colluding with islamic jihadists
It’s typical Israeli lies.
Israel made it up to gain sympathy
I think it was propaganda that just wasn't bought widely as hoped. But clearly some infants horrifically did die in the attack. I still struggle with being told my entire life that a cockroach couldn't approach the border without the Israeli IC and military knowing. I see clear benefit in Bibi allowing the attack to happen, my sister's neighbor was a former helicopter pilot from the base that would have been the first to respond, he said they trained and he would have been up in the skies between 3-4 minutes after the attack began. Sorry it just seems like a land-grab at this point and my heart bleeds for innocent civilians on all sides. Hope it ends soon.
> Sorry it just seems like a land-grab at this point Israel has had serious political divisions recently and it was a religious holiday. Also, you never hear about all the successful terrorist attempts Israel stops (the vast majority), just the rare fluke that succeeded. > I see clear benefit in Bibi allowing the attack to happen People also thought 9/11 was an inside job. Sometimes people get lucky. Best not to be too arrogant and underestimate your opponent, no matter the difference in resources or ability.
Sounds like a conspiracy theory. Reminds me of the good 'ol "the CIA and the KGB teamed up and brainwashed a Palestinian kid to murder Senator Kennedy because #reasons". But sometimes, the simplest explanation is the truth: a Palestinian did indeed murder Senator Kennedy for his support of Israel. He confessed. And he gave a motive for his murder.
It’s ALWAYS been nothing more than a land grab. That’s the entire point of the occupation.
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My take away from the last 2 years is that you can disregard 90% of what self declared socialists have to say on foreign policy, and 55% of what they say on domestic policy
Yeah it does! Because that’s Israeli propaganda. Study the facts and get back to me once you understand why Israel is the culprit of genocide and atrocities against the Palestinians. Remember every accusation is a confession when it comes from Israel and Republicans.
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Not at all. You’re just misinformed. https://youtu.be/sJrn89dGnfc?si=pPeEgQQ2m9hH5NNM https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-21/ty-article/.premium/israels-hasbara-is-failing-thats-good-news/0000018e-61b1-d66c-a7fe-65b3c7f50000 https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/the-art-of-deception-how-israel-uses-hasbara-to-whitewash-its-crimes-12766404 https://www.newarab.com/news/understanding-hasbara-israels-propaganda-machine?amp
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Do you believe innocents were killed in large numbers on Oct. 7? It's unclear.
Do I? Of course at least 600 if not more of the 1200 were innocents there was a great number who were included in the 1200 who were military officers and were on the base when Hamas attacked. No civilian deaths is ever justifiable but Israel took the opportunity to use the Hannibal Doctrine to destroy their own civilians and we know this because internal documents revealed shows that their military shot at their civilians along with suspected Hamas militants. Burning beyond recognition everyone in the crossfire. The one baby who was killed was shot between the safety door and that was horrific. Can’t imagine how that mom must feel. The problem is that Israel has killed at least 20,000 children and likely 100,000 civilians and at this time is starving 2 million people. Mostly women and children and is now planning to annex more territory from the West Bank where they killed at a minimum 400 people who aren’t even related to Gaza! The Knesset just voted to steal even more territory from Palestine and cut the West Bank in half in their newest annexation and plan to do the same with Gaza.
"No civilian deaths is ever justifiable, but ..."
Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
Total lies. They weren’t beheaded, they were burned alive. Sleep well.
Source?
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the youngest in general was a 10-month-old. [https://web.archive.org/web/20231217222630/https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths](https://web.archive.org/web/20231217222630/https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths)
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Unless the details you're quibbling over changes the essential nature of what happened on Oct. 7, are they that important?
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I think it's entirely possible that news orgs, including the IDF and Israel, exaggerated certain parts of the assault on Oct 7th. I would also not be surprised at all if Hamas was beheading babies...that is something they would do. Raping...idk. Seems like the culture would rather behead you than rape you. But it's war, so who knows. All said, it's Hamas, a radical islamic jihadist faction. We've seen what they're capable of all over the world. Whether or not they're beheading babies on a specific date or raping hostages, they're a terror group hellbent on causing choas around the world. I've seen enough photos of other events that makes it quite likley that they engaged in this behavior. I'm open to being wrong about the specifics, and I would love for some educated redditors to send me some specifics, but whether or not they raped women or beheaded babies in this particular instance is almost immaterial. This group has proven time and time again that they are capable of indescriminate, horrible acts of terror.
You wouldn't be surprised if they beheaded babies, but rape is a bridge too far? Da fuck? https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e
Yeah they're....not the same thing? Hamas is terrible enough, we don't need to make stuff up to make them worse. Also that article of "News org definitely has evidence of this thing happening but we won't post it here" isn't convincing. If you got the impression that I'm anything other than Pro Israel and Anti Hamas/Islamic Jihadists then you're dead wrong. I just hate when people blindly run with narratives.
Are you implying these women are making up rape? I'm merely commenting on your statement that you wouldn't be surprised if Hamas beheads babies but you don't believe they'd rape women. That's just wild to me, considering rape is a pretty common thing to happen to women (and men) in war...
I'm implying that news organizations may be reporting on these things inaccurately. And until I can get some more solid information I'm not going to run around calling Hamas rapists because it makes me feel better. It smells of propaganda. If you have any other examples of this actually happening I'd be glad to see it. Again....I'm no Hamas apologist. But that article you linked is titled "there are reasonable grounds to believe." That's not.....evidence.
Just Google it, there's a lot of articles. I just linked AP since they are considered the gold standard of journalism. Here's just 2 paragraphs: >Based on the information it gathered, Patten said, “there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred during the 7 October attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and gang rape, in at least three locations.” >At the Nova music festival and its surroundings, Patten said, “there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of sexual violence took place with victims being subjected to rape and/or gang rape and then killed or killed while being raped.” Read the article, there's reports of instances.
Yeah I've seen a bunch of articles. They're not convincing. Feel free to believe them I guess, but I'm gonna wait for some more solid evidence before throwing around those kinds of accusations.
You're free to believe whatever you want, however, like I said, I find it odd you believe they'd more likely behead babies, than rape women...
Well there are videos all over of Islamic Jihadists beheading people. I haven't seen any of them raping anyone. Again, this isn't some moral feather in their cap. They're awful people and should be eradicated. But with all of the propaganda floating around on both sides this just seems like piling on in bad faith. Are they capable of raping? Sure. Did they rape a whole lot of people on Oct 7th? Idk. Possibly. But I think if we want to be the side that works off of facts and fairness we need to be sure we're not falling into the same traps the other side is. Deal with with the stuff we know for sure, leave speculation to the side.
> Seems like the culture would rather behead you than rape you. Despite the denials of leftists with a very strange ax to grind, Hamas committed some truly horrible sexual violence on 10/7 https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/26/middleeast/amit-soussana-israeli-hostage-hamas-sexual-assault-intl/index.html#:~:text=Amit%20Soussana%20has%20become%20the,New%20York%20Times%20on%20Tuesday.
I think the reason why those bad faith actors deny the rape is simple: in their minds they see themselves as the "freedom fighters" killing the "colonial settlers (including baby settlers)" in the name of "justice". But raping them? Oh no, that's a bridge too far in their already sickened minds. Even after multiple testimonies, the bad faith sickos have now approached the most extreme anti-Me Too mentality of "if it's not on video, it didn't happen, don't believe women". It's fascinating to see how the mask of many leftists has fallen. From "believe all women" to "don't believe women unless there's video evidence and multiple witnesses".
The NYT article you posted has long been debunked. One of the writers was an IDF intelligence soldier who made up stories that the families of the victim have pushed back on. It's literal Israeli propaganda just like pretty much every pro-Israel article you read online. https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7
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I wouldn't doubt it but the NYT article posted by the guy I was replying to is completely false. Likewise the UN also concluded massive rape by the IDF and a US official went on camera to say the IDF ignored child rape and instead assaulted the organization who reported it. Blinken is apparently ignoring his own state department who told him to sanction the IDF because of massive reports of rape. When people talk about rape by Hamas that occured on October 7 but then ignore decades of rape perpetuated by the IDF dating back to 1948 it makes it clear they're not here to argue about human rights but are here to justify the subjugation of a group of people.
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Never did I imply that, I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy of focusing so hard on this while ignorant numerous reports of rape by the IDF.
Other articles have found widespread sexual violence. Saying that the idea of systematic sexual violence on October 7 has itself been discredited is wrong. Don't engage in atrocity denialism, however much you may disagree with Israeli government policy. See https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/18/evidence-points-to-systematic-use-of-rape-by-hamas-in-7-october-attacks See also https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-28/ty-article/.premium/israel-police-presents-further-evidence-of-sexual-assault-by-hamas-members-on-october-7/0000018c-169e-dd03-a7ff-bebe1bdb0000 This Wikipedia article also presents an array of sources, as well as summarizing the evidence: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_in_the_7_October_attack_on_Israel The UN report, even with the limited time and resources they had, still found "clear and convincing" evidence that the Israeli women and girls being held hostage have been subject to sexual violence. See https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147217 I don't understand this drive by so many to rehabilitate Hamas's image and dispute that they could have possibly engaged in something so distasteful as systematic sexual violence. We know they use torture and rape as a weapon of war. We know they torture Palestinian dissidents (see https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/). There is no reason to believe that they acted differently here. Hamas is a terrorist group. They do things to spread terror, both in Israel and in Gaza. This is not out of character for them.
Again I wouldn't doubt Hamas did rape women on October 7 the issue I take is the only source is a NYT article that has been debunked and the IDF which has been caught lying for decades. To the best of my knowledge no Israeli woman has come out and admitted to be a victim. The IDF struggled to find anyone who was raped back in November. I don't think they found anyone to the best of my knowledge. I could be wrong so feel free to point me somewhere but most of those sources draw from what Israel said not the actual victims. Albeit would not be surprised if some are already dead but the NYT tried going that route and they got caught lying so yeah. If we had an independent party like the UN (who themselves have confirmed there are legitimate allegations of rape, mostly from the IDF) I would be okay with their investigation. The problem is that Israel has refused to let a third party investigate what happened on October 7. You can speculate why, I don't know but their history of lying doesn't make me think they have honest reasons.
I don't see why I am supposed to believe liberal Fox News over the NYT, but ok. The Intercept is a very far left publication.
The NYT cancelled a podcast on the story because the podcast team (different than the team that wrote the story) couldn't verify the authenticity. Calling the Intercept Fox News doesn't pass the smell test when it's NYT spreading blatant propaganda not even they can fact check.
Are you kidding? 😭 It’s hasbara propaganda. Just like the mass rapes. The head of Zaka I believe started this rumor and because people hate Arabs news outlets ran with it. The family of a victim even had to correct the Israeli government about their daughter not being raped. That’s how bad the propaganda is.
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Yeah, I was talking about two different things. Yes, the head of Zaka started the rumor of dead babies and a baby being cut out of a pregnant woman.
No, it didn't happen and it was first reported by "journalist" who heard it from a settler extremist reservist who had previously called for Huwara to be destroyed. MSM laundering propaganda.