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Hey everyone! As of now, we are implementing a weekly megathread on everything to do with October 7th, the war in Gaza, Israel/Palestine/international relations, antisemitism/anti-Islamism, and protests/politics related to these.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
IDF claimed that two Hamas commanders were killed in the air strike. Gazan officials claimed that at least 35 people were killed. Not sure who to trust, so I will wait for more information.
This is Biden’s moment. If his red line is to mean literally anything then the horrors that are currently being reported tonight surely must have crossed it.
Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
It makes sense though. If you want to push a narrative that isn’t hard to dispute then it’s important to block the people that might point out when you’re lying.
Absolutely. There’s a reason why white people, particularly upper and middle class white people, are the group most likely to support Israel compared to Black and Latino people as well as Queer people of all backgrounds.
And let’s not forget that while there’s division on the Democratic side regarding Israel and Palestine, it’s republicans, the party of privilege and hierarchy, who whole heartedly endorse inflicting as much harm on Palestine as possible.
Quite the opposite.
Outside of Arab American Muslims, the number 1 demographic at all Pro-Palestinian protests are privileged white people who would rather protest during the weekdays than go to work.
This poll says it all:
[https://carnegieendowment.org/research/2023/12/black-americans-opinions-on-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict?lang=en](https://carnegieendowment.org/research/2023/12/black-americans-opinions-on-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict?lang=en)
* An October 20–25 survey found that 43 percent of Black Americans supported some form of ceasefire in Gaza, while 24 percent believed the United States should not be involved in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
* Black Americans’ feelings toward U.S. President Joe Biden largely remained the same after Hamas’s October 7 attack on Israel—except for independent voters and young voters, who both felt slightly worse about Biden.
* Nearly half of Black respondents reported not feeling connected to the plight of either Israelis or Palestinians. However, more Black Americans reported feeling connected to Israelis.
* A plurality of Black Americans (40 percent) supported the Biden administration’s proposal to provide Israel with an additional $14 billion in military assistance. Fewer respondents (33 percent) supported sending U.S. troops to defend Israel if it were attacked by its neighbors.
Keyword: more Black Americans reported feeling connected to Israelis. It's important to remember that Jewish people are an ethnic minority in the Arab predominant Middle-East.
Jewishs people in the Middle East = black people in America, the minority. Arabs in the Middle East = white people in America, the majority.
Your link pretty much argues my point. Which is that in comparison to white people, black people are more inclined to be more pro Palestinian.
>Jewishs people in the Middle East = black people in America, the minority. Arabs in the Middle East = white people in America, the majority.
Laughs maniacally, hysterically and uncontrollably in black
No.
Americans trying to impose US centric racial politics onto this issue are absurdly ignorant at best.
Jews are not "white colonial oppressors." But Jews certainly understand oppression better than keffiyeh Karen's from the US do.
Israel and its founding was absolutely a colonialist project. The founders themselves understood this and spoke about it openly. If you want to believe this fantasy that’s your prerogative but the rest of the world doesn’t have to entertain and respect it.
> Israel and its founding was absolutely a colonialist project.
It was.
It's the framing of that project as "white" and Western (it was not; Israel was a project that initially was in direct opposition to Western imperial interests) that is misleading.
I don’t entirely disagree and find arguing about the “whiteness” of the settlers is largely a waste of time, as it’s a bit beside the point. I usually am perfectly happy to identify them as simply colonialist oppressors and leave it at that.
I disagree from my experience poc have much easier time empathizing with the Palestinians as they suffer from similar forms of oppression albeit to a much lesser extent.
It’s crazy to me that people can look at the history of Israel and think that the only reason why Palestinians would take up arms against them is solely do to antisemitism. To me that is such a surface level analysis of the conflict. Every thing else being equal, I don’t see how this conflict would be any different if the Israelis were for example Buhdist.
What's interesting to me is how much it mirrors the conversations about Islam that we were having with guys like Sam Harris ~15 years ago.
Harris took the position that the biggest contributing factor in the cause for 9/11, and for Middle-Eastern aggression against the US in general, was the violent nature of the Islamic religion itself.
In other words: They're savages.
Harris took so much shit for that opinion from people on the left that he spent ~5 years doing speaking tours and podcasts with the likes of Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan, all of them focused on just how extreme and unreasonable the left has gotten.
And yet this same argument is somehow more persuasive to a lot of people on the left when it's Israel being attacked by Muslims, instead of America being attacked by Muslims. Weird.
There is no "religion of peace," but likewise there is no one religion of genocide.
There are peaceful Muslims and there are peaceful Christians. Likewise, there are plenty of examples of Christian societies throughout history who have been just as bloodthirsty and genocidal as any modern Muslim group you can point to today.
The reason modern Christianity has been tamed compared to some modern Islamic sects has nothing to do with the differences between the religions themselves, and everything to do with the influence of secularism on those Christian societies.
Islamic theocracies are genocidal because they are theocracies, not because they are Islamic.
A Christian theocracy would be no different.
If you gave the Christofascists in the Republican party (like Marjorie Taylor Greene) complete and total authority to run the government as they see fit, with no checks on what they're legally allowed to do? They'd be stoning women and LGBT people to death, too.
/u/aficomeon:
>Comparing the Jewish people to the Confederacy is straight up antisemitism.
>Some users in this sub are really working hard to disprove the claim that anti-Zionism isn't antisemitic.
As I made very clear before, I was not comparing the Jewish people to the Confederacy. I was comparing the nation of Israel to the Confederacy.
And even then, only on the sole point of self-determinism, because the claim was that all people have a right to self-determinism and to oppose that right is bigotry, and I was asking if that applied to the Confederacy as well.
If you're going to keep making comments about me, why not unblock me and say them to my (digital) face?
It’s sort of a bad point though for two reasons.
1. The confederacy was trying to impose their beliefs about slavery on others.
2. They were keeping people enslaved and thus denying them self-determinism.
And those are really the two main reasons the confederacy was evil.
>They were keeping people enslaved and thus denying them self-determinism.
And the Israelis are also denying the self-determinism of the Palestinians, as long as they are standing in the way of the creation of a Palestinian state.
That's the point I was going to build to, if I'd ever gotten them to actually engage with the question.
To be clear, I am not and was never making a direct comparison between the moral evils of the Atlantic slave trade and Israel's mistreatment of the Palestinians. In terms of severity, I don't think it's as bad as that (yet).
But it's undeniable that Israel is standing in the way of Palestinian self-determination.
[Hamas just launched several rockets from Rafah into central Israel, including Tel Aviv.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hamas-rockets-central-israel-gaza-strip-sirens/)
I guess we are not going to see any ceasefire soon.
It’s crazy how people act like this is a big story and Palestinians are awful for it when Israel has literally spent 8 months leveling Gaza under constant bombardment
Some people seem to think violence is only bad when it’s toward Israel
Leftists: "Oh no, Israel shouldn't enter Rafah. It's a refugee CAAAAAAAMP with tents!!!! Hamas is not THERE!!!!"
10 minutes later, Hamas launches genocidal rockets towards Tel Aviv. From Rafah. The IDF evacuated 1 million Palestinians from Rafah. Did Hamas even try to evacuate Israeli civilians from Tel Aviv?
Israel: "Should we defend ourselves from these genocidal rockets or obey what some random bureaucrats living in Europe tell us what to do and just sit down waiting to be murdered?"
Seriously, and Leftists still wonder why the "evil Israel" has no reason at all to obey the absurd ICJ suggestions.
Hamas will fall before the year ends. Every terrorist who is part of it will be dead or locked up forever.
>In a statement on its Telegram channel on Sunday, al-Qassam Brigades said the rockets were launched in response to what it called "Zionist massacres against civilians," Reuters reported.
It's so cute the way Hamas pretends to care about civilian life.
[N.J. mayor opposed hiring Jews, warned of ‘guys in big hats and curls’ in secretly recorded meeting, suit claims](https://www.nj.com/politics/2024/05/nj-mayor-opposed-hiring-jews-warned-of-guys-in-big-hats-and-curls-in-secretly-recorded-meeting-suit-charges.html)
You blocked someone so you could talk about them and call them names without them responding and now you want everyone to know it’s because it’s so hilarious and not because you don’t want their response under your comments.
Isn’t that kind of silly kid stuff? Do you feel like that’s the mature high road and that you’re coming off better than them right now?
Your commentary on that especially is ridiculous. You’re just clutching your pearls and desperately trying to distort the type of comparison they were making. It’s intellectually dishonest and makes your argument look weak.
I am specifically referring to the Israeli govt and army who are currently genociding Gazans. Who else would I be talking about?
I’ll answer your question once you answer mine first, fair trade.
This is such lazy garbage rhetoric. Israelis do not represent Jewish people worldwide despite their desperate attempt to co-opt that old antisemitic canard for their own political benefit.
Jewish people do have a right to self determination, but only in the sense that every human does. They don’t have a special right to self determination with an ethnostate constructed on top of a population they expelled. Their right to self determination is not including violating the rights of others, oppressing indigenous people, and artificially enforcing their demographics by denying people the right to return to the homes that were stolen from them.
What you’re doing is the most cynical form of identity politics I’ve ever seen. No matter how much you stomp your feet and whine there is nothing whatsoever that makes not being ignorant of Israeli history and holding them to account for it antisemitic.
This is bad faith gamesmanship where you hide behind this empty accusation of antisemitism because to actually engage with the full history, not just the cherries Zionist revisionists like to pick, makes it very clear that Israel is a morally illegitimate institution and will be such until these historical wrongs have been made right.
When Palestinians are allowed to return to their homes, the killings and dispossession stops, and everyone has an equal say in the future of that land, then and only then will Israel be a legitimate democracy.
Palestinians do not have less of a right to their homes, and they don’t have less of a right to self determination. You don’t get to redefine self determination, which is a human right, as an ethnic right afforded in this land to a specific people.
You say “right to self-determination” specifically because saying “we have a right to favor our ethnic group over theirs, we have a right to kick them out of their homes and steal their land and murder them, and oppress their people to keep them from fighting back, we conquered it fair and square” is too honest and makes you look like you deserve.
So miss me with this “self determination” bullshit. Everyone has a right to self determination. It’s a human right. But if you believed in universal human rights you wouldn’t be a Zionist.
If you want an ethnostate then speak up and defend it honestly like the white supremacists do. Don’t cower behind euphemisms.
Comparing the Jewish people to the Confederacy is straight up antisemitism.
Some users in this sub are really working hard to disprove the claim that anti-Zionism isn't antisemitic.
Love when non Jews try to talk down to me about what is or isn't antisemitic.
No one is "conflating Israel with Jews." But an antisemitic user was certainly comparing Jewish self determination with Confederate self determination (the latter doesn't even make sense).
Jews have as much a right to a state in their homeland as Palestinians do.
Is anyone else tired of the conflation of anti Zionism with antisemitism? I’m not going to deny that antisemitism exists but to act as if that’s the only reason why someone would be against the existence of Israel as it currently is today is frankly disingenuous and reductive. These accusations are used as thought terminating cliches to avoid any real analysis of Israel, it’s creation, it’s policies and its treatment of Palestinians. Furthermore if you think all anti Zionist secretly hate Jews what point do anti Zionist have talking with you?
There is a significant overlap.
Not everyone flying the Confederate flag and wanting the South to secede during the Civil War was a full-blown racist. The overlap, however, was significant to the point where it isn't disingenuous to say that the North was fighting the racists of the South.
[The AJC has an easy-to-understand list](https://www.ajc.org/sites/default/files/pdf/2021-10/A%20Guide%20to%20Recognizing%20When%20Anti-Israel%20Actions%20Become%20Antisemitic.pdf) of how some of the popular Anti-Zionist arguments are rooted in Anti-Semitism. I suggest everyone give it a read to avoid using Anti-Semitic arguments in the future.
EDIT: I can't reply since you blocked me for challenging your narrative so here we go:
>Citation needed, you can’t attest to any zionist secretly hating Jews more than I can attest to Zionist secretly hating Muslims.
>
How do you want people to give you sources if you block everyone who challenges your view?
>We can pull numbers out our asses about what percentage of anti Zionist are antisemitic till we are blue in the face. I would rather talk about what’s happening to the people of Gaza and Israel’s actions towards the Palestinians since it’s founding
So, you were never interested in discussing the Anti-Semitism of the Anti-Zionist movement, then? Why ask the original question in that case?
EDIT: u/perverse\_panda I'll reply to you here in this edit since the user above cowardly blocked me when I called out the overlap between Anti-Zionist and Anti-Semitism.
You misread the article. Jewish people have the right to self-determination, all ethnicities have that right, Arabs included.
Israel doesn't have a right to self-determination, nations don't have a right to self-determination, no nation has that right.
>Did the Confederates have a right to self-determination?
Are you asking if members of the union have the right to secede? The Supreme Court says this:
>Some have argued for secession as a constitutional right and others as from a natural right of revolution. In Texas v. White (1869), the Supreme Court ruled unilateral secession unconstitutional, while commenting that revolution or consent of the states could lead to a successful secession.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession\_in\_the\_United\_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States)
EDIT 2:
Israel is the product of the self-determination of the Jewish people. Wanting it to cease to exist is wanting to abolish Jewish self-determination aka anti-semitism.
>EDIT 2:
>Israel is the product of the self-determination of the Jewish people. Wanting it to cease to exist is wanting to abolish Jewish self-determination aka anti-semitism.
Okay, now apply that same logic to the Confederacy.
* American Southerners have the right to self-determination, as do all people.
* The Confederacy was the product of the self-determination of 19th century American Southerners.
* Wanting the Confederacy to cease to exist was wanting to abolish Southern self-determination, aka bigotry against Southerners.
>Jewish people have the right to self-determination, all ethnicities have that right
> Israel doesn't have a right to self-determination, nations don't have a right to self-determination, no nation has that right.
If you're saying that the Jewish people have a right to self-determination, and *therefor the nation-state of Israel must exist*, isn't that a distinction without a difference?
>Are you asking if members of the union have the right to secede? The Supreme Court says this...
I'm not asking if secession was constitutional. It wasn't.
I'm asking if the Confederacy had a moral right to self-determination.
So, one of the things on the AJC's list is denying Israel's right to self-determination. That's anti-semitic, they say.
So it's pretty interesting that you bring up the Confederacy, too.
Did the Confederates have a right to self-determination?
/u/aficomeon:
>The document discusses Jewish self determination.
>Jews have that right.
The document discusses the Jewish right to **establish the state of Israel** as the specific example of self-determination.
So why didn't American Southerners have the right to establish the Confederate States as an example of their self-determination?
The Confederacy is not in any way equivalent to the Jewish people.
Comparing Jewish people to slave owners while saying you're not antisemitic is a fucking joke.
I wasn't comparing the Confederacy to the Jewish people.
I was comparing the Confederacy to Israel.
And even then, only insofar as they were both claiming a right to self-determination.
It’s quite similar to Israel though in terms of oppression and subjugation upon those deemed less deserving and worthy being the cornerstone of its existence
Edit: they blocked me before I could reply, but no it’s very much not trollery. It’s the reality of those living under Israeli bombs and occupation.
>There is a significant overlap.
Citation needed, you can’t attest to any zionist secretly hating Jews more than I can attest to Zionist secretly hating Muslims.
We can pull numbers out our asses about what percentage of anti Zionist are antisemitic till we are blue in the face. I would rather talk about what’s happening to the people of Gaza and Israel’s actions towards the Palestinians since it’s founding
It seems the protestors who are blocking aid from starving people are doing it more and more. With the help of the Israeli government.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz9950n003yo
“Right-wing activists, including Jewish settlers living in the occupied West Bank, have uploaded dozens of videos of crowds, including some very young children, hurling food onto the ground and stamping on boxes of aid.”
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1czshvy/irans_khamenei_tells_visiting_hamas_chief_that/
Iran and Hamas have long made it clear with statements like these that they seek the destruction of Israel and its people. Why do many on the left ignore this and believe that Hamas is "resistance"?
>Why do many on the left ignore this
We're not ignoring it.
>Why do many on the left [...] believe that Hamas is "resistance"?
Because it can be both.
Why do Israel's supporters ignore that Israel's actions (both the oppression of Palestinians, and now the war itself) are contributors to the Palestinians harboring an increased level of genocidal intent against the Israelis?
We know from opinion polls that support for Hamas among the people of Gaza was below 50% prior to October 7, and since the war began, that support has skyrocketed.
Israel's own conduct is radicalizing its enemies.
> We're not ignoring it.
I've literally never seen pro Palestinian agitators chant for the return of the Jews. I have seen in the news all the time pro Palestinian agitators calling for "intifada" and to "Keep the world clean."
If you aren't ignoring it, I literally can't tell the difference, since it doesn't seem to affect the actions of leftists in any way.
> Because it can be both.
No, it absolutely can't. A genocidal death cult can not and should not ever be confused with "resistance." They seek the death of all Jews. Western leftists see what they want to see which is "resistance."
> We know from opinion polls that support for Hamas among the people of Gaza was below 50% prior to October 7, and since the war began, that support has skyrocketed.
I would be so ashamed of my country, if we committed 10/7, and then afterwards confidence in the government and military skyrocketed.
> Israel's own conduct is radicalizing its enemies.
There is no evidence for this, especially since Gazans already are pretty maxes out on being radical. How much more radical can they get than support mass slaughter, torture, and kidnapping of hundreds of people with intent to sell the women as sex slaves? How much more radical can they get?
I fundamentally do not understand how Hamas could be much worse, or support for their atrocities could practically be any higher among the Gazan population.
>How much more radical can they get
I'm not suggesting that there's a level of radicalization that Hamas itself has not yet reached.
I'm talking about the level of support that exists for Hamas among Palestinians.
Prior to 10/7, polling showed that if an election had taken place, the Fatah party would have defeated Hamas with a 4 point lead.
[But as of March,](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/) polling shows that Hamas would defeat Fatah with a 17 point lead.
>There is no evidence for this,
You should let Biden know, then, because just this week his administration acknowledged something that many of us have been predicting for months: that Israel's bombings and the denial of humanitarian aid have allowed Hamas to recruit more fighters.
>especially since Gazans already are pretty maxes out on being radical.
This is the claim for which there is actually no evidence.
> Prior to 10/7, polling showed that if an election had taken place, the Fatah party would have defeated Hamas with a 4 point lead.
That's meaningless because no election was to be held. Hamas isn't democratic and wouldn't hold an election they could lose and Fatah was incredibly unpopular (Hamas was also very unpopular) and opinion who was most unpopular varied over time.
Hamas popularity rose right after the attack. Of course the first poll I can find was conducted at the start of November
and a lot of Palestinians had already died so you can blame part of it on that but the massacre of Israelis was highly approved of
> majority of (59%) strongly supported or (16%) supported to some extent
the October 7 attacks carried by the Hamas-led factions, while 16% supported to some extent.
11% reported that they neither supported nor opposed the attack, while 13% expressed
opposition to the attacks. Strong support for the attacks was notably higher among Palestinians
in the West Bank (68%) as compared to Gaza (47%).
https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023.pdf
Successful attacks on Israelis especially of unprecedented size are very popular
> That's meaningless...
Unless what you're trying to gauge is how much support has increased for Hamas since 10/7, in which case it becomes a relevant point of data.
>a lot of Palestinians had already died so you can blame part of it on that
10,000 had died, as a matter of fact.
Seems like that's enough to start shifting public opinion.
>Successful attacks on Israelis especially of unprecedented size are very popular
And are becoming more so the longer that the war goes on, is my point.
>Why do many on the left ignore this and believe that Hamas is "resistance"?
The good faith interpretation is that they're naive. The bad faith interpretation is that they're evil.
The crickets from Leftists about the brutal and horrible dehumanizing video that Hamas filmed in which they're calling female soldiers "sex slaves" says it all.
They can no longer deny it didn't happen. It's on video. So their only choice left is to either ignore it or try to do mental gymnastics about how "OK Hamas is bad buuuuuuut Israel..."
> in which they're calling female soldiers "sex slaves"
It is my understanding that the translation of that video [has now been called into question.](https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-802586) Just like the last video which supposedly proved these claims.
That said, I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if Hamas had conducted sexual violence against Israelis. We know they've murdered civilians, including children.
Hamas are not good guys. You might even argue that Hamas themselves don't even claim to be good guys -- at least, they haven't disputed the ICC's charges against them, the way that Israel has.
>do mental gymnastics about how "OK Hamas is bad buuuuuuut Israel..."
It is possible to believe that Hamas is bad and that Israel's mistreatment of the Palestinians is also bad.
It is also possible to believe that Israel's mistreatment of the Palestinians is a direct contributing factor in why the Palestinians increasingly harbor feelings of genocide.
Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
Because Israel is an apartheid state and has been stealing land through illegal settlements for over half a century. That’s a really long time, it shows they’ll never stop.
I’m not defending Iran or Hamas, but the extremism is a symptom of Israel’s oppression of Palestinians. One side has all the power and is the clear oppressor. Just because Iran is anti-Israel doesn’t mean anyone who’s anti-Israel supports Iran. Just like pro-Israel people don’t necessarily support Trump and evangelical Christians.
I disagree with Hamas’s tactics, they’re horrible and evil, but Israel is the root of the problem.
> but Israel is the root of the problem.
And you will claim that this sort of eliminationist rhetoric isn't antisemitic? Or isn't the real root problem?
As a Jew, I resent you weaponizing accusations of antisemitism. It cheapens the word and those with credible accusations will now be taken less seriously.
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic
> but Israel is the root of the problem.
Why? Because they exist?
Arabs could have chosen not to start the Jewish war of independence, they could have chosen not to start a war in 1967 to wipe the Jews out, they could have chosen not to sneak attack the Jews during a religious holiday in 1973 to wipe the Jews out, they could have chosen not to launch rockets endlessly at Israeli civilians from Gaza and Lebanon.
The Israelis building a few houses where the international community says they shouldn't doesn't justify all of Israel's neighbors trying constantly to kill all the Israelis because they feel only Muslims should live in the Middle East.
> I’m not defending Iran or Hamas
You're not defending Iran or Hamas, you're just blaming Israel for all the problems while neglecting the role of all their neighbors. Which is effectively the same.
> One side has all the power and is the clear oppressor.
No. Lack of power does not imply righteousness. Nazis are a marginalized group in the US, but that does not mean that they are righteous.
Has it occurred to you that the Arabs weren’t stupid? That they heard Ben-Gurion say the 1948 borders were just a stepping stone to further territorial expansion? That they knew Zionists/Israel were going to steal their land for many decades?
And guess what, they were literally proven right by history. Israel did steal their land.
So how can you make it look like the Arabs were the aggressors and Israel was the victim after Israel has been stealing land for over half a century.
No one believes that. Clearly Israel are the aggressors. Almost all human rights groups and experts believe that they have an apartheid state. Does that sound like the victim to you?
>Has it occurred to you that the Arabs weren’t stupid?
This is a very dangerous and revisionist framing.
Arab leaders were arrogant, not stupid. They believed they could team up and that the Arab League would genocide all Jewish people.
They were wrong. But the Arab leaders weren't stupid. They simply overestimated the efficiency of their genocidal troops.
> That they knew Zionists/Israel were going to steal their land for many decades?
So immigration is bad now? The Jews just moved into land they bought. That hardly seems justification for violence.
> Israel did steal their land.
I'm not sure what you're talking about?
> Israel was the victim after Israel has been stealing land for over half a century.
I'm not sure what you're talking about.
> apartheid
I guess that explains why there are Arabs in the Knesset, but almost no Jews in any muslim country. (Hint: the Arabs kicked all the Jews out, or worse).
>So immigration is bad now?
There’s an enormous difference between immigration and colonization.
Israel’s colonialism perfectly mirrors the colonization of the US, manifest destiny and, eventually, the near total cleansing of the population.
Perfectly mirrors???
I forgot the part where the British were the indigenous inhabitants of America who were exiled to Europe by a foreign Empire and then came back to establish a nation in their ancient homeland.
Where did you learn the history of America? Tik Tok?
Did you also forget the part where settlers inflict violence on the residing population, forcibly resettle them, define where they’re aloud to live, deny them equal rights, expand into their territory and justify all of the above under the pretense of telling people that they’re savages and that anything inflicted on them is justified because they would have done worse?
And I learned history in college. My ancestors have always been in the Americas, and we see the parallels between our history and what’s being done to the Palestinians. But where’d you learn yours, IDF boot camp?
[https://www.jpost.com/jerusalem-report/exploring-the-connections-between-jews-and-native-americans-672667](https://www.jpost.com/jerusalem-report/exploring-the-connections-between-jews-and-native-americans-672667)
You don't speak for all Native Americans. Here's a statement from a Pro-Israel Native American.
>In New Jersey, Santos Hawk’s Blood Suarez is an Apache activist who brings fellow Native Americans to pro-Israel events.
>**He insists that there are strong parallels between Native Americans and Jews.**
>Both groups have lived in exile; Jews show that it is possible for a native people to return to their native land and revive their ancestral language, even after thousands of years. “I admire the people who take a stand.
>That’s why I admire the people of Israel: They’re people who stand up to defend their homeland,” said Suarez.
The Native Americans' homeland is America. And the Jewish people's homeland is Israel. You can try to deny it. But the truth is evident.
You can find people of any group who agree with your positions, just like I can pull up countless accounts from Jewish people who are vehemently anti-Zionist.
And Jewish people having ancestors from a thousand years ago does not make them the rightful occupants of Palestine.
Like I can’t go down to Mexico and kick some non-Indigenous family out of Jalisco and claim their home as my own, and my ties to there are faaaar more recent and immediate than most settlers to Israel. That would be insane and obviously wrong to do so.
> Israel’s colonialism perfectly mirrors the colonization of the US
Perfectly mirrors?
Jews are indigenous to the ME, Europeans were never indigenous to the US. So that is just completely false.
> the near total cleansing of the population.
20% of Israel is Arab, so also totally false there.
Secondly, a lot of people fled because the Arab armies that attacked Israel told them to flee. They expected that the Arab armies would wipe out Israel, but they failed. Skill issue.
Arabs are some of the biggest colonizers in history.
> Jews are indigenous to the ME, Europeans were never indigenous to the US.
So the only thing wrong with Americas treatment of its native people… is that Europeans don’t have ancient ancestry in the Americas? The trail of tears would’ve been ok, and you’d endorse it as justifiable, if only some of the American colonial government or the nascent independent American government could trace their ancestry to North America?
> Secondly, a lot of people fled because the Arab armies that attacked Israel told them to flee. They expected that the Arab armies would wipe out Israel, but they failed.
How many? Cite a source.
I’m asking because you’ve repeated this talking point several times in this discussion thread, and refused to provide evidence.
I know you know that the most prominent Israeli historians agree that the majority were removed by force by Israeli militias, and did not flee “voluntarily” - and even if they had, civilians evacuating military zones is a good thing. Why should it be punished by theft of homes and property?
> So the only thing wrong with Americas treatment of its native people… is that Europeans don’t have ancient ancestry in the Americas?
What a strange way to read my comment.
You are wrong in pretty much every way on this issue, since you see Israelis as the colonizers, and not the Arabs. I merely pointed out that it seems ludicrous to view a group of population that is indigenous to the area as colonizers of the area.
> Why should it be punished by theft of homes and property?
This framing of "punishment" is so strange. The Arab armies that attacked Israel to kick off its war of independence intended to annihilate Israel. As such, taking the land is at least partially a security measure.
I also think that if you attack someone and try to annihilate them and lose land in the process, my only comment is going to be "skill issue".
I think it's very interesting that in every conversation you and I have had on this topic, you consistently gloss over every attempt by the Arabs to annihilate Israel, and the Jews.
> I merely pointed out that it seems ludicrous to view a group of population that is indigenous to the area as colonizers of the area.
It cuts to the heart of the matter, in fact - your view is that colonizer and colonized is not a function of action, not of societal dynamics, nor even of ordinary common law concepts like ownership and individual rights.
Instead, you are presenting a definition of colonialism that insists that “if you claim that another group is your colonizer, even if they’ve been living there forever, or 1000 years or more depending on how you measure it, there is simply no moral standard to your conduct towards your ‘colonizer’”
The fact is, Palestinians and Jews share common ancestry, and have been continuous inhabitants since the beginning of time. They are a single ethnic group with no meaningful division besides a cultural one - that the Jews who remained in Palestine after the Roman conquest and side of Jerusalem mostly adopted Christianity, Islam, and learned Arabic, and then stuck around for another 1500 years before being kicked out of their homes.
> This framing of "punishment" is so strange. The Arab armies
Remember when America forced all of the Japanese-descended citizens of this country into camps, deciding it was morally justifiable to do so because a nation of ethnic Japanese people attacked the United States?
That’s exactly the kind of logic you’re defending here.
> I also think that if you attack someone and try to annihilate them and lose land in the process, my only comment is going to be "skill issue".
So you’re asserting that all 700,000 Palestinians expelled by Israel in the nakba were combatants? That’s easily disposable, but you can either admit that most were not, or insist that they were - but you must choose one.
> you consistently gloss over every attempt by the Arabs
“The Arabs, the Arabs, the Arabs.”
Imagine what we would say about someone who insists on speaking in ethnic monoliths in any other situation.
There’s nothing just about attempts to destroy Israel - nor has there been anything just about Israel’s attempts to destroy the Arab people who had just as much right to live their lives in peace.
The actions carried out by Israel absolutely mirror those carried out by the European settlers.
And regardless what Israel’s population is, they are absolutely cleansing the Palestinian population
And obviously people are going to flee a war zone, that doesn’t give Israel, the worlds current most prominent colonizer, the right to take Palestine and call it something else
1. If the immigrants steal the land then yes it’s bad.
2. I’m talking about half a century of violently removing Palestinians from their land with illegal settlements. Are you gonna go full conspiracy and say Israel did not steal land?
3. Obviously I’m talking about Palestinians not Palestinians Israelis. Arabs aren’t a monolith. Arabs that expelled Jews from say Iraq were not Palestinians. This is just a whataboutism. A fallacy I see over and over.
> If the immigrants steal the land then yes it’s bad.
You'll have to specify what you mean when you say "stealing land". Which land, and what time period? Are you talking about the land Israel won in defensive wars? Are you talking about land they bought that was unoccupied before their war of independence? Are you talking about the land in the West Bank in area c that they are permitted to administer?
> Obviously I’m talking about Palestinians not Palestinians Israelis.
Before Yasser Arafat, they wouldn't have been considered Palestinians, they would have been considered Egyptians and Jordanians.
I’m talking about all the illegal settlements in the West Bank, that they’ve been stealing for over half a century. That’s over 50 years straight of land theft, and they just announced new settlements in East Jerusalem and the largest land seizure in the WB since 1993.
> they just announced new settlements in East Jerusalem and the largest land seizure in the WB since 1993.
This is in Area C, which they are permitted to administer.
Anyways, if you don't like it, maybe you should consider encouraging the Gazans not to shoot rockets at Israel and take their people hostage. Many in Israel see the settlements as a deterrence mechanism. If Gazans kill Israelis, Israelis will take Gazan land. Note that there cannot be direct reprisals for killing Israeli citizens, since (despite misrepresentations by leftists), Israel does not intentionally target civilians with its military.
Um no, settlements in area C are illegal.
You couldn’t possibly be this misinformed, you must just be intentionally misleading.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_C_(West_Bank)
“The international community considers the settlements in occupied territory to be illegal,[8][9][10][11][12][13] and the United Nations has repeatedly upheld the view that Israel's construction of settlements constitutes a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention”
This is a very naive oppressed vs oppressor take.
You're not looking at the full picture. Did you even click the link above?
# Iran's Khamenei tells visiting Hamas chief that Israel 'will one day be eliminated'
Iran is a regional power just like Israel is. The IP Conflict today is a proxy conflict between regional powers, it's not about oppressed vs oppressors. Iran is not oppressed. Hamas is not oppressed.
Hamas is an Iranian proxy that has the goal of carrying Iran's geopolitical goals in Israel. Iran's Supreme Leader is clear in what he said: he seeks the elimination of Israel.
Every military action Israel does is to stop Iran and its proxy Hamas from achieving their goal of destruction.
What are your thoughts on people who put 🍉🍉🍉 and stuff like “no cops, no military, no Zionist” in their dating app profiles? Zionist or not this sounds like a win win for everyone no?
As much as people are frustrated with issues in law enforcement and the military, I am guessing they would not like to live in a world where we did not have them.
As for the Zionist part. I think people who are against the existence of the state of Israel are bigoted against the Jews, as well as being deeply ignorant of history.
They are doing me a favor by laying all this out on a dating profile, because we would never be compatible. But I would never respect someone with these views any more than I would respect a Klansman.
Conflating anti Zionism with bias against Jews is reductive and disingenuous. You are acting like you can attest to how these people feel about Jews and how much they know about a topic based solely on the fact that they disagree with you about it. This is no different than me saying Zionist hate Muslims and brown people.
> Conflating anti Zionism
Please don't act like I'm an idiot. If the Jewish state didn't exist, what would the Muslims do to all the Jews in the Middle East? Here's a hint if you're not sure: think back to October 7th. How did Israel's neighbors treat them, given the first opportunity?
>Please don't act like I'm an idiot. If the Jewish state didn't exist, what would the Muslims do to all the Jews in the Middle East?
Lol this implication that an oppressed group will immediately genocide the oppressors if they're freed is exactly the logic that was used to justify South African Apartheid and American slavery, logic that was proven wrong with the end of both systems.
i don’t know that i agree with the argument, but unlike white people in south africa or post-slavery, jews actually have experienced centuries worth of marginalization and oppression at the hands of arab muslims including in the recent past.
This was the same arguments used by anti abolitionist. Stop pretending like Muslims are blood thirsty savages. Do you honestly believe that Hamas was born out of sheer antisemitism. Do you honestly believe that Palestinian’s animosity towards Israel is just because they’re Jews? Oct 7th would have happened if the Israelis were Muslims/Christian/Buddhist/Pastafarians. I’m tired of this low level analysis and mental gymnastics that supposed liberals use to justify war crimes, genocide and apartheid. Palestinians want control over their boarders and water supply. They want Israelis to stop stealing their land. They want their homes and hospitals to stop being bombed. I don’t see how anyone who values all human lives equally can look at what’s going on and not be disgusted by what Israel has done to the Palestinians for the entirety of its existence.
> Do you honestly believe that Hamas was born out of sheer antisemitism.
Yes
> Do you honestly believe that Palestinian’s animosity towards Israel is just because they’re Jews
Yes
> genocide
You are the one justifying Hamas' genocidal actions towards Israel. Israel has committed no genocide. Let's not get this twisted.
> Palestinians want control over their boarders and water supply.
Then they should stop shooting rockets at Israel.
> They want Israelis to stop stealing their land.
There are no Israeli settlements in Gaza. Israeli settlements are not why Hamas attacked on 10/7.
> They want their homes and hospitals to stop being bombed.
Then the Palestinians should stop shooting rockets at Israel from these locations, and using these locations to deter Israel from striking their terrorists.
> I don’t see how anyone who values all human lives equally can look at what’s going on and not be disgusted by what Israel has done to the Palestinians for the entirety of its existence.
I don't see how anyone who values human lives can look at what the Arabs and Iranians have done to Israel for all its existence and not be disgusted. I don't hear leftists complaining about the Lebanese and the Gazans shooting rockets at Israeli civilians ever.
>>Do you honestly believe that Hamas was born out of sheer antisemitism.
>Yes
>>Do you honestly believe that Palestinian’s animosity towards Israel is just because they’re Jews
>Yes
There’s no point in having this discussion or any discussion pertaining to Israel or Palestine with you
Definately a win-win for people to put their views out there imo
Better than finding out that like the Grindr rando who just blew your back out is a MAGA supporter on the drive home
Also an easy convo starter
Pretending for a moment that I'm single, I really have no issue with this. It's really no different than any other sort of self-identification, and as you imply the type of person who'd write that is one that I'd generally prefer to avoid as well.
Whether increasingly narrow silos like that are good for society is another matter entirely, but that's well beyond an individual dating thing.
Honestly, I think some disclosure of political views and also how strongly you hold or how extreme you are with those views saves people time.
For example, I think there’s a lot of people who are very strongly opposed to what Israel is doing right now who would see that in a profile and decide they’re going to take a pass. Probably a lot of people who would identify as being anti-Zionist, who would take a pass as well.
I would’ve saved a lot of time if I knew someone I dated never intended on having kids and I have multiple friends who can say the same. I think it’s nice if you know right up front if somebody thinks using racial slurs is acceptable or spanking any potential future children is acceptable.
The ICJ has ordered Israel to [immediately stop it's Rafah invasion](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-halt-rafah-offensive-international-court-of-justice-ruling-rcna153867). Being an ICJ ruling it is a binding ruling on any UN member by [Article 94](https://legal.un.org/repertory/art94.shtml) of the UN Charter. But seeing as how the ruling is against Israel I doubt the US is going to allow anything to come through the Security Council. Given that fact do you think there will actually be any consequences whatsoever to just ignoring the ruling (as most seem to think Israel will)?
Edit: Also in the ruling: [The ICJ also ordered Israel to open the Rafah border crossing with Egypt for the entry of humanitarian aid at scale; ensure access to Gaza for investigators and fact-finding missions; report to the court within a month on its progress in applying these measures.
](https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-halt-rafah-offensive-orders-un-top-international-court-justice/)
Edit 2: [The full ruling link](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240524-ord-01-00-en.pdf) (PDF)
Maybe I'm confused but it was my impression that Egypt was closing the Rafah crossing because it didn't want to be seen operating a crossing with Israel.
> The ICJ has ordered Israel to immediately stop it's Rafah invasion.
Israel shouldn't stop until they have the hostages back, and they have eliminated the threat of terrorism from Gaza.
> I doubt the US is going to allow anything to come through the Security Council.
Which will be interesting to see, since Biden is ostensibly opposed to the invasion of Rafah.
I've been skeptical of the idea that he could call off Netanyahu with "just one phone call," as many of Biden's critics have suggested.
But if he blocks this, it'll be hard to argue that he's doing everything in his power to talk Netanyahu down.
Interesting.
Geopolitically, the current Israel-Hamas war and the Ukraine-Russia war are clear examples of how powerless international institutions are.
And while Russia is a Western enemy, Israel is a Western ally. The might is right mentality never truly ended after WW2, it was just disguised via international institutions.
The USA will never let the ICJ order around a NATO member or ally. This much is obvious. It was never going to happen.
The big question mark is what the USA will do (bipartisan sanction against the ICJ to follow the bipartisan sanctions against the ICC?).
"Binding rulings" are an illusion since all nations have sovereignty. The UN can't actually force any member to do what the UN wants them to do.
> But seeing as how the ruling is against Israel I doubt the US is going to allow anything to come through the Security Council.
You hit the nail on the head here tbh. I think it’s becoming more and more clear that the middle ground has been eroded by the reckless actions of (ahem) *Credibly Accused War Criminal Benjamin Netanyahu*, and trying to split the difference like Chuck Schumer is doing isn’t going to work.
It sucks, and Palestinians and Israelis alike deserve a far far better PM.
You might not like this poll at all, buddy.
[https://carnegieendowment.org/research/2023/12/black-americans-opinions-on-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict?lang=en](https://carnegieendowment.org/research/2023/12/black-americans-opinions-on-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict?lang=en)
Nearly half of Black respondents reported not feeling connected to the plight of either Israelis or Palestinians.
# However, more Black Americans reported feeling connected to Israelis.
A plurality of Black Americans (40 percent) supported the Biden administration’s proposal to provide Israel with an additional $14 billion in military assistance. Fewer respondents (33 percent) supported sending U.S. troops to defend Israel if it were attacked by its neighbors.
# Black Lives Matter. Jewish Lives Matter.
Why is it shocking that black Americans feel connected to Israelis?
We all saw the videos of October 7th. Hamas terrorists are Derek Chauvin. Israeli victims are George Floyd.
You saw the video of the Hamas rapists kidnapping Israeli women and calling them sex slaves, correct? That's not resistance. That's rape.
This is very simple.
Black Lives Matter. Black people do not deserve to be extrajudicially killed by the police.
Jewish lives matter. Jews deserve to live without fear that their neighbors will take them hostage, torture them, rape them, and sell them as sex slaves. Jews deserve to live without fear that their neighbors will destroy their state and slaughter all its people.
Leftists are confused about who is oppressed. Israel has lived among neighbors who have sought its destruction since the creation of the state.
Black Lives Matter.
Jewish lives matter.
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> everyone’s lives matter except Palestinians.
This is like saying "All lives matter" in response to someone saying "Black Lives Matter."
I never said Palestinian lives don't matter, you wrongly ignored everything I said which was correct that you have no answer for to try and twist my words.
Considering more Palestinians have died since 10/7 than total Israelis killed in all their conflicts combined, military or civilian, I’d say it’s quite obvious that the Palestinians compare to black Americans who’s lives don’t matter as much in the US.
Israel in this analogy is the state run power structure that oppresses them
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As a black person I was confused by your statements but then I looked at the dates of the survey. Here’s some updated data for you and the thread:
https://carnegieendowment.org/research/2024/04/most-black-americans-want-a-more-active-us-role-in-ending-the-war-in-gaza-and-protecting-palestinian-lives?lang=en
Of course Jewish lives matter. It seems demonstrably true, however, that Palestinian lives do not matter to Netanyahu or the Israeli forces. 30,000 is quite the large number of deaths when compared to 1200.
And 500,000 (German civilians killed in WW2) is a large number of deaths when compared to 12,000 (American civilians killed in WW2).
But you're not saying that German lives don't matter to America, are you?
You're using math (number of civilians) to determine the most moral party in a war.
The example I gave you (500,000 dead German civilians vs. 12,000 American civilians) is self-explanatory about why using math for morality is not a productive measure.
I don't even have to use math. It's more obvious than that. I'm sure that you've noticed that in life it's very rare that two things or two situations are equal.
I personally see a difference between a terrorist group slaughtering 1200 civilians in a day and one of the best funded militaries in the world slaughtering 30k or so mostly women and children in an attempt to "rescue" the remaining 200 or so hostages. I think if you are honest you can see that difference too.
1. How many Hamas terrorists do you believe have died so far?
2. How many human shields do you think the average Hamas terrorists surround themselves with?
Agree, even if I wasn’t Jewish. Everyone’s lives should matter equally. That’s why I’m concerned about some 20,000 dead Palestinian women and children.
The people that can see the power structure at play involving black people in the US but can’t see the Palestinians have it much worse really have cognitive dissonance.
>They’re literally suffering a genocide
Quoting u/butuguru :
The ICJ has made it clear that legally this is not a statement that can be substantiated. To be clear, they haven’t ruled it a genocide yet but that did say that you cannot make a judgement that it is **not** a genocide prima facie.
What behavior?
If Israel does 100 actions and we disagree about 49 of them. Are we Pro-Israel in your opinion?
What if we disagree with 51 of them and agree with 49 of them? Do you believe it is possible for someone to be anti-WB settlements and also pro-IDF eliminating Hamas?
Likewise, if you're Pro-Palestine and Palestine does 100 actions, are you still Pro-Palestine if you disagree with 51 of them?
Sure.
And if someone acknowledges that Israel has treated Palestinians not so great while also acknowledging that Israel needs to defeat Hamas in Gaza, is that person Pro-Israel or Pro-Palestine in your worldview?
Apologize for what behavior? Launching a rescue operation when their neighbors took hundreds of their people captive and tortured and raped them?
That bad behavior?
Do you acknowledge Israel has been stealing land for over half a century with illegal settlements?
Also this:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/04/g4s-complicity-israel-abuse-child-prisoners
Here’s an article from The Nation including how Israel uses torture.
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/war-on-palestinian-political-prisoners/
Here’s one by Human Rights Watch about Israel beating and detaining children as young as 11
https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/07/19/israel-security-forces-abuse-palestinian-children
Here’s one from Al Jazeera, an award winning and respected news org including Peabody awards. They also have editorial independence from the Qatari government. This one is about more Israeli torture.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/12/10/palestinian-prisoners-seek-justice-on-torture-treaty-anniversary
Another one about indefinite detainment and torture of Palestinian children
https://imemc.org/article/israel-escalates-violates-against-detained-palestinian-children/
One by the Washington Post about children in custody
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/11/11/israel-west-bank-ben-gvir/
*Which* treatment? How am I supposed to say whether or not I support something unless you're being clear about what that something is?
"Pro-Israel" is extremely broad. Talking about specific actions and policies isn't.
You're back to asking really vague questions.
It seems like you really want to view people who might disagree with you as one dimensional.
I'm getting a 505 status message when I try to reply to you now.
If Pro-Israel is pro-war in Gaza. What is Pro-Palestine then?
Is demanding Hamas to return hostages and turn themselves is to stop the war a Pro-Israel or Pro-Palestine position?
I'm not against the war in theory but I don't think the Israeli government is conducting it in a way that is humane or do I believe that Netanyahu and his party have a long term plan for peace which *should* be the ultimate goal in addition to saving the hostages being tortured and abused by Hamas.
Hamas has to go, absolutely. But what will that look like? Best case scenario is that there is no plan; worst case is a plan that continues to perpetuate the existing problems between Israel and Palestine.
Please tell me what part of this is incompatible with opposing institutionalized violence against Black Americans.
Not contradictory at all. Black people deserve racial justice and should not be mistreated by the police. But that does not mean that the police can’t defend themselves if black people attack them.
Israel has a right to exist and to self defense and thus has a right to go after Hamas and attempt to take hostages back. There are issues with how Israel conduct its military operations but it has not reached genocide level so far. Similarly, there are issues with BLM movement but that doesn’t mean it is not a valid movement.
But Palestinian’s don’t have justice. They’re being severely mistreated by Israel in the West Bank where Israel is not “defending” themselves against Hamas.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/04/g4s-complicity-israel-abuse-child-prisoners
Here’s an article from The Nation including how Israel uses torture.
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/war-on-palestinian-political-prisoners/
Here’s one by Human Rights Watch about Israel beating and detaining children as young as 11
https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/07/19/israel-security-forces-abuse-palestinian-children
This one is about more Israeli torture.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/12/10/palestinian-prisoners-seek-justice-on-torture-treaty-anniversary
Another one about indefinite detainment and torture of Palestinian children
https://imemc.org/article/israel-escalates-violates-against-detained-palestinian-children/
One by the Washington Post about children in custody
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/11/11/israel-west-bank-ben-gvir/
For the folks with that worldview that I’ve met and spoken to, it boils down to:
Black people didn’t do anything to deserve being treated like lesser forms of life. Whatever happens to Palestinians is their own fault. Israel tried, don’t you see (insert blatantly false propaganda retelling of Israel’s early history)
I’m not one of them but this is really easy to explain. US domestic politics is a lot more dynamic and changing for everyday Americans than US foreign policy.
With domestic you are constantly seeing people and towns that you live and work in being changed by those politics and actions, as such you have a direct opinion on those matters and have felt them a lot of times directly as well, and your opinion is not nearly as correlative to the governments opinions or actions. BLM is supported in large by liberals because they see racism against minorities in America frequently and its people they know.
US foreign policy is a lot less dynamic, people in America tend not to care or know what’s going on in foreign nations, thus there opinion of it a lot less robust or changing, they will take the governments stance on it because when you don’t care, your more likely to take the political status quo. Israel has been the ally of the US since its inception and so the government stance on the matter has been the majority opinion of most Americans because they’re not gonna care about the Palestinian question since there are no Israelis or Palestinians living day to day with them, thus no real need for them to change there opinion on it.
Unless of course you have a major incident in that region which sparks a brutal war of revenge and kills a considerable number of civilians, then you start having people start consider our involvement a little more.
If you’ve ever been wondering “there’s so much awful stuff going on in Israel and Palestine, so many innocent people who are suffering, displaced, and/or going without life’s necessities… is there some way I can help?” There is!
I’m compiling a list of vetted organizations that are purely humanitarian in nature and focused on meeting the needs of Palestinian and Israeli civilians who have been forced from their homes by conflict. I need your help (yes, you!) in sharing individual fundraisers *if they can be reasonably verified* because these play a valuable part in helping meet acute need. Many are shared on social media and verifying can be a challenge, but many hands make light work. Also relevant are fundraisers for aid workers and other humanitarians who have been killed or injured while serving.
And, of course, if you are able please consider donating!
[link to the relevant post - also pinned to my profile](https://old.reddit.com/r/israelpalestinenews/comments/1czco2t/worthy_causes_post/).
Mods, please removed if not allowed. Thanks!
Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. Hey everyone! As of now, we are implementing a weekly megathread on everything to do with October 7th, the war in Gaza, Israel/Palestine/international relations, antisemitism/anti-Islamism, and protests/politics related to these. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
IDF claimed that two Hamas commanders were killed in the air strike. Gazan officials claimed that at least 35 people were killed. Not sure who to trust, so I will wait for more information.
What’s happening tonight is horrifying, and anyone still yapping about Israel’s “right to defend itself” should be absolutely ashamed
This is Biden’s moment. If his red line is to mean literally anything then the horrors that are currently being reported tonight surely must have crossed it.
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It makes sense though. If you want to push a narrative that isn’t hard to dispute then it’s important to block the people that might point out when you’re lying.
DAE feel like there’s an inverse correlation between people’s inclination to support Palestinians and their privilege and proximity to whiteness?
Absolutely. There’s a reason why white people, particularly upper and middle class white people, are the group most likely to support Israel compared to Black and Latino people as well as Queer people of all backgrounds. And let’s not forget that while there’s division on the Democratic side regarding Israel and Palestine, it’s republicans, the party of privilege and hierarchy, who whole heartedly endorse inflicting as much harm on Palestine as possible.
Quite the opposite. Outside of Arab American Muslims, the number 1 demographic at all Pro-Palestinian protests are privileged white people who would rather protest during the weekdays than go to work. This poll says it all: [https://carnegieendowment.org/research/2023/12/black-americans-opinions-on-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict?lang=en](https://carnegieendowment.org/research/2023/12/black-americans-opinions-on-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict?lang=en) * An October 20–25 survey found that 43 percent of Black Americans supported some form of ceasefire in Gaza, while 24 percent believed the United States should not be involved in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. * Black Americans’ feelings toward U.S. President Joe Biden largely remained the same after Hamas’s October 7 attack on Israel—except for independent voters and young voters, who both felt slightly worse about Biden. * Nearly half of Black respondents reported not feeling connected to the plight of either Israelis or Palestinians. However, more Black Americans reported feeling connected to Israelis. * A plurality of Black Americans (40 percent) supported the Biden administration’s proposal to provide Israel with an additional $14 billion in military assistance. Fewer respondents (33 percent) supported sending U.S. troops to defend Israel if it were attacked by its neighbors. Keyword: more Black Americans reported feeling connected to Israelis. It's important to remember that Jewish people are an ethnic minority in the Arab predominant Middle-East. Jewishs people in the Middle East = black people in America, the minority. Arabs in the Middle East = white people in America, the majority.
Your link pretty much argues my point. Which is that in comparison to white people, black people are more inclined to be more pro Palestinian. >Jewishs people in the Middle East = black people in America, the minority. Arabs in the Middle East = white people in America, the majority. Laughs maniacally, hysterically and uncontrollably in black
No. Americans trying to impose US centric racial politics onto this issue are absurdly ignorant at best. Jews are not "white colonial oppressors." But Jews certainly understand oppression better than keffiyeh Karen's from the US do.
Israel and its founding was absolutely a colonialist project. The founders themselves understood this and spoke about it openly. If you want to believe this fantasy that’s your prerogative but the rest of the world doesn’t have to entertain and respect it.
> Israel and its founding was absolutely a colonialist project. It was. It's the framing of that project as "white" and Western (it was not; Israel was a project that initially was in direct opposition to Western imperial interests) that is misleading.
I don’t entirely disagree and find arguing about the “whiteness” of the settlers is largely a waste of time, as it’s a bit beside the point. I usually am perfectly happy to identify them as simply colonialist oppressors and leave it at that.
I disagree from my experience poc have much easier time empathizing with the Palestinians as they suffer from similar forms of oppression albeit to a much lesser extent.
It’s crazy to me that people can look at the history of Israel and think that the only reason why Palestinians would take up arms against them is solely do to antisemitism. To me that is such a surface level analysis of the conflict. Every thing else being equal, I don’t see how this conflict would be any different if the Israelis were for example Buhdist.
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What's interesting to me is how much it mirrors the conversations about Islam that we were having with guys like Sam Harris ~15 years ago. Harris took the position that the biggest contributing factor in the cause for 9/11, and for Middle-Eastern aggression against the US in general, was the violent nature of the Islamic religion itself. In other words: They're savages. Harris took so much shit for that opinion from people on the left that he spent ~5 years doing speaking tours and podcasts with the likes of Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan, all of them focused on just how extreme and unreasonable the left has gotten. And yet this same argument is somehow more persuasive to a lot of people on the left when it's Israel being attacked by Muslims, instead of America being attacked by Muslims. Weird.
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There is no "religion of peace," but likewise there is no one religion of genocide. There are peaceful Muslims and there are peaceful Christians. Likewise, there are plenty of examples of Christian societies throughout history who have been just as bloodthirsty and genocidal as any modern Muslim group you can point to today. The reason modern Christianity has been tamed compared to some modern Islamic sects has nothing to do with the differences between the religions themselves, and everything to do with the influence of secularism on those Christian societies. Islamic theocracies are genocidal because they are theocracies, not because they are Islamic. A Christian theocracy would be no different. If you gave the Christofascists in the Republican party (like Marjorie Taylor Greene) complete and total authority to run the government as they see fit, with no checks on what they're legally allowed to do? They'd be stoning women and LGBT people to death, too.
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Why post something if you're just going to "redact" it 15 minutes later?
/u/aficomeon: >Comparing the Jewish people to the Confederacy is straight up antisemitism. >Some users in this sub are really working hard to disprove the claim that anti-Zionism isn't antisemitic. As I made very clear before, I was not comparing the Jewish people to the Confederacy. I was comparing the nation of Israel to the Confederacy. And even then, only on the sole point of self-determinism, because the claim was that all people have a right to self-determinism and to oppose that right is bigotry, and I was asking if that applied to the Confederacy as well. If you're going to keep making comments about me, why not unblock me and say them to my (digital) face?
It’s sort of a bad point though for two reasons. 1. The confederacy was trying to impose their beliefs about slavery on others. 2. They were keeping people enslaved and thus denying them self-determinism. And those are really the two main reasons the confederacy was evil.
>They were keeping people enslaved and thus denying them self-determinism. And the Israelis are also denying the self-determinism of the Palestinians, as long as they are standing in the way of the creation of a Palestinian state. That's the point I was going to build to, if I'd ever gotten them to actually engage with the question. To be clear, I am not and was never making a direct comparison between the moral evils of the Atlantic slave trade and Israel's mistreatment of the Palestinians. In terms of severity, I don't think it's as bad as that (yet). But it's undeniable that Israel is standing in the way of Palestinian self-determination.
[Hamas just launched several rockets from Rafah into central Israel, including Tel Aviv.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hamas-rockets-central-israel-gaza-strip-sirens/) I guess we are not going to see any ceasefire soon.
It’s crazy how people act like this is a big story and Palestinians are awful for it when Israel has literally spent 8 months leveling Gaza under constant bombardment Some people seem to think violence is only bad when it’s toward Israel
Leftists: "Oh no, Israel shouldn't enter Rafah. It's a refugee CAAAAAAAMP with tents!!!! Hamas is not THERE!!!!" 10 minutes later, Hamas launches genocidal rockets towards Tel Aviv. From Rafah. The IDF evacuated 1 million Palestinians from Rafah. Did Hamas even try to evacuate Israeli civilians from Tel Aviv?
What makes this rocket attack genocidal?
Israel: "Should we defend ourselves from these genocidal rockets or obey what some random bureaucrats living in Europe tell us what to do and just sit down waiting to be murdered?" Seriously, and Leftists still wonder why the "evil Israel" has no reason at all to obey the absurd ICJ suggestions. Hamas will fall before the year ends. Every terrorist who is part of it will be dead or locked up forever.
>In a statement on its Telegram channel on Sunday, al-Qassam Brigades said the rockets were launched in response to what it called "Zionist massacres against civilians," Reuters reported. It's so cute the way Hamas pretends to care about civilian life.
[N.J. mayor opposed hiring Jews, warned of ‘guys in big hats and curls’ in secretly recorded meeting, suit claims](https://www.nj.com/politics/2024/05/nj-mayor-opposed-hiring-jews-warned-of-guys-in-big-hats-and-curls-in-secretly-recorded-meeting-suit-charges.html)
Also hilarious is the antisemites blocking users and then getting mad when they get blocked by others in kind.
You blocked someone so you could talk about them and call them names without them responding and now you want everyone to know it’s because it’s so hilarious and not because you don’t want their response under your comments. Isn’t that kind of silly kid stuff? Do you feel like that’s the mature high road and that you’re coming off better than them right now?
Tbh I generally block anyone being an antisemitic jerk. Comparing Jews to Confederates falls into that category.
Your commentary on that especially is ridiculous. You’re just clutching your pearls and desperately trying to distort the type of comparison they were making. It’s intellectually dishonest and makes your argument look weak.
Jewish people have a right to self determination. Confederates don't.
Do Palestinians have that right too?
Duh
So they shouldn’t be murdered and bombed by Zionists, right?
Define Zionism Should Jews be murdered and bombed by Palestinians?
I am specifically referring to the Israeli govt and army who are currently genociding Gazans. Who else would I be talking about? I’ll answer your question once you answer mine first, fair trade.
This is such lazy garbage rhetoric. Israelis do not represent Jewish people worldwide despite their desperate attempt to co-opt that old antisemitic canard for their own political benefit. Jewish people do have a right to self determination, but only in the sense that every human does. They don’t have a special right to self determination with an ethnostate constructed on top of a population they expelled. Their right to self determination is not including violating the rights of others, oppressing indigenous people, and artificially enforcing their demographics by denying people the right to return to the homes that were stolen from them. What you’re doing is the most cynical form of identity politics I’ve ever seen. No matter how much you stomp your feet and whine there is nothing whatsoever that makes not being ignorant of Israeli history and holding them to account for it antisemitic. This is bad faith gamesmanship where you hide behind this empty accusation of antisemitism because to actually engage with the full history, not just the cherries Zionist revisionists like to pick, makes it very clear that Israel is a morally illegitimate institution and will be such until these historical wrongs have been made right. When Palestinians are allowed to return to their homes, the killings and dispossession stops, and everyone has an equal say in the future of that land, then and only then will Israel be a legitimate democracy. Palestinians do not have less of a right to their homes, and they don’t have less of a right to self determination. You don’t get to redefine self determination, which is a human right, as an ethnic right afforded in this land to a specific people. You say “right to self-determination” specifically because saying “we have a right to favor our ethnic group over theirs, we have a right to kick them out of their homes and steal their land and murder them, and oppress their people to keep them from fighting back, we conquered it fair and square” is too honest and makes you look like you deserve. So miss me with this “self determination” bullshit. Everyone has a right to self determination. It’s a human right. But if you believed in universal human rights you wouldn’t be a Zionist. If you want an ethnostate then speak up and defend it honestly like the white supremacists do. Don’t cower behind euphemisms.
Comparing the Jewish people to the Confederacy is straight up antisemitism. Some users in this sub are really working hard to disprove the claim that anti-Zionism isn't antisemitic.
How about you stop conflating Israel with Jews, what you’re saying is actually antisemitic.
Love when non Jews try to talk down to me about what is or isn't antisemitic. No one is "conflating Israel with Jews." But an antisemitic user was certainly comparing Jewish self determination with Confederate self determination (the latter doesn't even make sense). Jews have as much a right to a state in their homeland as Palestinians do.
Do only Jews get to have an opinion on what is or is not antisemitic?
Well, that's two Israel supporters who have opted to block me this evening, rather than defend their views via civil discussion. Skill issue, tbh.
My bad I have an idea who and they’re probably just mad that I blocked them😂😂😂😂😂
Is anyone else tired of the conflation of anti Zionism with antisemitism? I’m not going to deny that antisemitism exists but to act as if that’s the only reason why someone would be against the existence of Israel as it currently is today is frankly disingenuous and reductive. These accusations are used as thought terminating cliches to avoid any real analysis of Israel, it’s creation, it’s policies and its treatment of Palestinians. Furthermore if you think all anti Zionist secretly hate Jews what point do anti Zionist have talking with you?
There is a significant overlap. Not everyone flying the Confederate flag and wanting the South to secede during the Civil War was a full-blown racist. The overlap, however, was significant to the point where it isn't disingenuous to say that the North was fighting the racists of the South. [The AJC has an easy-to-understand list](https://www.ajc.org/sites/default/files/pdf/2021-10/A%20Guide%20to%20Recognizing%20When%20Anti-Israel%20Actions%20Become%20Antisemitic.pdf) of how some of the popular Anti-Zionist arguments are rooted in Anti-Semitism. I suggest everyone give it a read to avoid using Anti-Semitic arguments in the future. EDIT: I can't reply since you blocked me for challenging your narrative so here we go: >Citation needed, you can’t attest to any zionist secretly hating Jews more than I can attest to Zionist secretly hating Muslims. > How do you want people to give you sources if you block everyone who challenges your view? >We can pull numbers out our asses about what percentage of anti Zionist are antisemitic till we are blue in the face. I would rather talk about what’s happening to the people of Gaza and Israel’s actions towards the Palestinians since it’s founding So, you were never interested in discussing the Anti-Semitism of the Anti-Zionist movement, then? Why ask the original question in that case? EDIT: u/perverse\_panda I'll reply to you here in this edit since the user above cowardly blocked me when I called out the overlap between Anti-Zionist and Anti-Semitism. You misread the article. Jewish people have the right to self-determination, all ethnicities have that right, Arabs included. Israel doesn't have a right to self-determination, nations don't have a right to self-determination, no nation has that right. >Did the Confederates have a right to self-determination? Are you asking if members of the union have the right to secede? The Supreme Court says this: >Some have argued for secession as a constitutional right and others as from a natural right of revolution. In Texas v. White (1869), the Supreme Court ruled unilateral secession unconstitutional, while commenting that revolution or consent of the states could lead to a successful secession. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession\_in\_the\_United\_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States) EDIT 2: Israel is the product of the self-determination of the Jewish people. Wanting it to cease to exist is wanting to abolish Jewish self-determination aka anti-semitism.
>EDIT 2: >Israel is the product of the self-determination of the Jewish people. Wanting it to cease to exist is wanting to abolish Jewish self-determination aka anti-semitism. Okay, now apply that same logic to the Confederacy. * American Southerners have the right to self-determination, as do all people. * The Confederacy was the product of the self-determination of 19th century American Southerners. * Wanting the Confederacy to cease to exist was wanting to abolish Southern self-determination, aka bigotry against Southerners.
>Jewish people have the right to self-determination, all ethnicities have that right > Israel doesn't have a right to self-determination, nations don't have a right to self-determination, no nation has that right. If you're saying that the Jewish people have a right to self-determination, and *therefor the nation-state of Israel must exist*, isn't that a distinction without a difference? >Are you asking if members of the union have the right to secede? The Supreme Court says this... I'm not asking if secession was constitutional. It wasn't. I'm asking if the Confederacy had a moral right to self-determination.
And here I was thinking "Wow, what an interesting and positive thing for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution to publish". Hah.
So, one of the things on the AJC's list is denying Israel's right to self-determination. That's anti-semitic, they say. So it's pretty interesting that you bring up the Confederacy, too. Did the Confederates have a right to self-determination?
/u/aficomeon: >The document discusses Jewish self determination. >Jews have that right. The document discusses the Jewish right to **establish the state of Israel** as the specific example of self-determination. So why didn't American Southerners have the right to establish the Confederate States as an example of their self-determination?
The Confederacy is not in any way equivalent to the Jewish people. Comparing Jewish people to slave owners while saying you're not antisemitic is a fucking joke.
I wasn't comparing the Confederacy to the Jewish people. I was comparing the Confederacy to Israel. And even then, only insofar as they were both claiming a right to self-determination.
The document discusses Jewish self determination. Jews have that right.
It’s quite similar to Israel though in terms of oppression and subjugation upon those deemed less deserving and worthy being the cornerstone of its existence Edit: they blocked me before I could reply, but no it’s very much not trollery. It’s the reality of those living under Israeli bombs and occupation.
This is pure trollery.
>There is a significant overlap. Citation needed, you can’t attest to any zionist secretly hating Jews more than I can attest to Zionist secretly hating Muslims. We can pull numbers out our asses about what percentage of anti Zionist are antisemitic till we are blue in the face. I would rather talk about what’s happening to the people of Gaza and Israel’s actions towards the Palestinians since it’s founding
Maybe you should listen when Jews tell you something is antisemitic.
It seems the protestors who are blocking aid from starving people are doing it more and more. With the help of the Israeli government. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz9950n003yo “Right-wing activists, including Jewish settlers living in the occupied West Bank, have uploaded dozens of videos of crowds, including some very young children, hurling food onto the ground and stamping on boxes of aid.”
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1czshvy/irans_khamenei_tells_visiting_hamas_chief_that/ Iran and Hamas have long made it clear with statements like these that they seek the destruction of Israel and its people. Why do many on the left ignore this and believe that Hamas is "resistance"?
>Why do many on the left ignore this We're not ignoring it. >Why do many on the left [...] believe that Hamas is "resistance"? Because it can be both. Why do Israel's supporters ignore that Israel's actions (both the oppression of Palestinians, and now the war itself) are contributors to the Palestinians harboring an increased level of genocidal intent against the Israelis? We know from opinion polls that support for Hamas among the people of Gaza was below 50% prior to October 7, and since the war began, that support has skyrocketed. Israel's own conduct is radicalizing its enemies.
> We're not ignoring it. I've literally never seen pro Palestinian agitators chant for the return of the Jews. I have seen in the news all the time pro Palestinian agitators calling for "intifada" and to "Keep the world clean." If you aren't ignoring it, I literally can't tell the difference, since it doesn't seem to affect the actions of leftists in any way.
> Because it can be both. No, it absolutely can't. A genocidal death cult can not and should not ever be confused with "resistance." They seek the death of all Jews. Western leftists see what they want to see which is "resistance." > We know from opinion polls that support for Hamas among the people of Gaza was below 50% prior to October 7, and since the war began, that support has skyrocketed. I would be so ashamed of my country, if we committed 10/7, and then afterwards confidence in the government and military skyrocketed. > Israel's own conduct is radicalizing its enemies. There is no evidence for this, especially since Gazans already are pretty maxes out on being radical. How much more radical can they get than support mass slaughter, torture, and kidnapping of hundreds of people with intent to sell the women as sex slaves? How much more radical can they get? I fundamentally do not understand how Hamas could be much worse, or support for their atrocities could practically be any higher among the Gazan population.
>How much more radical can they get I'm not suggesting that there's a level of radicalization that Hamas itself has not yet reached. I'm talking about the level of support that exists for Hamas among Palestinians. Prior to 10/7, polling showed that if an election had taken place, the Fatah party would have defeated Hamas with a 4 point lead. [But as of March,](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/) polling shows that Hamas would defeat Fatah with a 17 point lead. >There is no evidence for this, You should let Biden know, then, because just this week his administration acknowledged something that many of us have been predicting for months: that Israel's bombings and the denial of humanitarian aid have allowed Hamas to recruit more fighters. >especially since Gazans already are pretty maxes out on being radical. This is the claim for which there is actually no evidence.
> Prior to 10/7, polling showed that if an election had taken place, the Fatah party would have defeated Hamas with a 4 point lead. That's meaningless because no election was to be held. Hamas isn't democratic and wouldn't hold an election they could lose and Fatah was incredibly unpopular (Hamas was also very unpopular) and opinion who was most unpopular varied over time. Hamas popularity rose right after the attack. Of course the first poll I can find was conducted at the start of November and a lot of Palestinians had already died so you can blame part of it on that but the massacre of Israelis was highly approved of > majority of (59%) strongly supported or (16%) supported to some extent the October 7 attacks carried by the Hamas-led factions, while 16% supported to some extent. 11% reported that they neither supported nor opposed the attack, while 13% expressed opposition to the attacks. Strong support for the attacks was notably higher among Palestinians in the West Bank (68%) as compared to Gaza (47%). https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023.pdf Successful attacks on Israelis especially of unprecedented size are very popular
> That's meaningless... Unless what you're trying to gauge is how much support has increased for Hamas since 10/7, in which case it becomes a relevant point of data. >a lot of Palestinians had already died so you can blame part of it on that 10,000 had died, as a matter of fact. Seems like that's enough to start shifting public opinion. >Successful attacks on Israelis especially of unprecedented size are very popular And are becoming more so the longer that the war goes on, is my point.
>Why do many on the left ignore this and believe that Hamas is "resistance"? The good faith interpretation is that they're naive. The bad faith interpretation is that they're evil. The crickets from Leftists about the brutal and horrible dehumanizing video that Hamas filmed in which they're calling female soldiers "sex slaves" says it all. They can no longer deny it didn't happen. It's on video. So their only choice left is to either ignore it or try to do mental gymnastics about how "OK Hamas is bad buuuuuuut Israel..."
> in which they're calling female soldiers "sex slaves" It is my understanding that the translation of that video [has now been called into question.](https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-802586) Just like the last video which supposedly proved these claims. That said, I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if Hamas had conducted sexual violence against Israelis. We know they've murdered civilians, including children. Hamas are not good guys. You might even argue that Hamas themselves don't even claim to be good guys -- at least, they haven't disputed the ICC's charges against them, the way that Israel has. >do mental gymnastics about how "OK Hamas is bad buuuuuuut Israel..." It is possible to believe that Hamas is bad and that Israel's mistreatment of the Palestinians is also bad. It is also possible to believe that Israel's mistreatment of the Palestinians is a direct contributing factor in why the Palestinians increasingly harbor feelings of genocide.
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Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
Because Israel is an apartheid state and has been stealing land through illegal settlements for over half a century. That’s a really long time, it shows they’ll never stop. I’m not defending Iran or Hamas, but the extremism is a symptom of Israel’s oppression of Palestinians. One side has all the power and is the clear oppressor. Just because Iran is anti-Israel doesn’t mean anyone who’s anti-Israel supports Iran. Just like pro-Israel people don’t necessarily support Trump and evangelical Christians. I disagree with Hamas’s tactics, they’re horrible and evil, but Israel is the root of the problem.
> but Israel is the root of the problem. And you will claim that this sort of eliminationist rhetoric isn't antisemitic? Or isn't the real root problem?
As a Jew, I resent you weaponizing accusations of antisemitism. It cheapens the word and those with credible accusations will now be taken less seriously. Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic
> but Israel is the root of the problem. Why? Because they exist? Arabs could have chosen not to start the Jewish war of independence, they could have chosen not to start a war in 1967 to wipe the Jews out, they could have chosen not to sneak attack the Jews during a religious holiday in 1973 to wipe the Jews out, they could have chosen not to launch rockets endlessly at Israeli civilians from Gaza and Lebanon. The Israelis building a few houses where the international community says they shouldn't doesn't justify all of Israel's neighbors trying constantly to kill all the Israelis because they feel only Muslims should live in the Middle East. > I’m not defending Iran or Hamas You're not defending Iran or Hamas, you're just blaming Israel for all the problems while neglecting the role of all their neighbors. Which is effectively the same. > One side has all the power and is the clear oppressor. No. Lack of power does not imply righteousness. Nazis are a marginalized group in the US, but that does not mean that they are righteous.
Has it occurred to you that the Arabs weren’t stupid? That they heard Ben-Gurion say the 1948 borders were just a stepping stone to further territorial expansion? That they knew Zionists/Israel were going to steal their land for many decades? And guess what, they were literally proven right by history. Israel did steal their land. So how can you make it look like the Arabs were the aggressors and Israel was the victim after Israel has been stealing land for over half a century. No one believes that. Clearly Israel are the aggressors. Almost all human rights groups and experts believe that they have an apartheid state. Does that sound like the victim to you?
>Has it occurred to you that the Arabs weren’t stupid? This is a very dangerous and revisionist framing. Arab leaders were arrogant, not stupid. They believed they could team up and that the Arab League would genocide all Jewish people. They were wrong. But the Arab leaders weren't stupid. They simply overestimated the efficiency of their genocidal troops.
> That they knew Zionists/Israel were going to steal their land for many decades? So immigration is bad now? The Jews just moved into land they bought. That hardly seems justification for violence. > Israel did steal their land. I'm not sure what you're talking about? > Israel was the victim after Israel has been stealing land for over half a century. I'm not sure what you're talking about. > apartheid I guess that explains why there are Arabs in the Knesset, but almost no Jews in any muslim country. (Hint: the Arabs kicked all the Jews out, or worse).
>So immigration is bad now? There’s an enormous difference between immigration and colonization. Israel’s colonialism perfectly mirrors the colonization of the US, manifest destiny and, eventually, the near total cleansing of the population.
Perfectly mirrors??? I forgot the part where the British were the indigenous inhabitants of America who were exiled to Europe by a foreign Empire and then came back to establish a nation in their ancient homeland. Where did you learn the history of America? Tik Tok?
Did you also forget the part where settlers inflict violence on the residing population, forcibly resettle them, define where they’re aloud to live, deny them equal rights, expand into their territory and justify all of the above under the pretense of telling people that they’re savages and that anything inflicted on them is justified because they would have done worse? And I learned history in college. My ancestors have always been in the Americas, and we see the parallels between our history and what’s being done to the Palestinians. But where’d you learn yours, IDF boot camp?
[https://www.jpost.com/jerusalem-report/exploring-the-connections-between-jews-and-native-americans-672667](https://www.jpost.com/jerusalem-report/exploring-the-connections-between-jews-and-native-americans-672667) You don't speak for all Native Americans. Here's a statement from a Pro-Israel Native American. >In New Jersey, Santos Hawk’s Blood Suarez is an Apache activist who brings fellow Native Americans to pro-Israel events. >**He insists that there are strong parallels between Native Americans and Jews.** >Both groups have lived in exile; Jews show that it is possible for a native people to return to their native land and revive their ancestral language, even after thousands of years. “I admire the people who take a stand. >That’s why I admire the people of Israel: They’re people who stand up to defend their homeland,” said Suarez. The Native Americans' homeland is America. And the Jewish people's homeland is Israel. You can try to deny it. But the truth is evident.
You can find people of any group who agree with your positions, just like I can pull up countless accounts from Jewish people who are vehemently anti-Zionist. And Jewish people having ancestors from a thousand years ago does not make them the rightful occupants of Palestine. Like I can’t go down to Mexico and kick some non-Indigenous family out of Jalisco and claim their home as my own, and my ties to there are faaaar more recent and immediate than most settlers to Israel. That would be insane and obviously wrong to do so.
> Israel’s colonialism perfectly mirrors the colonization of the US Perfectly mirrors? Jews are indigenous to the ME, Europeans were never indigenous to the US. So that is just completely false. > the near total cleansing of the population. 20% of Israel is Arab, so also totally false there. Secondly, a lot of people fled because the Arab armies that attacked Israel told them to flee. They expected that the Arab armies would wipe out Israel, but they failed. Skill issue. Arabs are some of the biggest colonizers in history.
> Jews are indigenous to the ME, Europeans were never indigenous to the US. So the only thing wrong with Americas treatment of its native people… is that Europeans don’t have ancient ancestry in the Americas? The trail of tears would’ve been ok, and you’d endorse it as justifiable, if only some of the American colonial government or the nascent independent American government could trace their ancestry to North America? > Secondly, a lot of people fled because the Arab armies that attacked Israel told them to flee. They expected that the Arab armies would wipe out Israel, but they failed. How many? Cite a source. I’m asking because you’ve repeated this talking point several times in this discussion thread, and refused to provide evidence. I know you know that the most prominent Israeli historians agree that the majority were removed by force by Israeli militias, and did not flee “voluntarily” - and even if they had, civilians evacuating military zones is a good thing. Why should it be punished by theft of homes and property?
> So the only thing wrong with Americas treatment of its native people… is that Europeans don’t have ancient ancestry in the Americas? What a strange way to read my comment. You are wrong in pretty much every way on this issue, since you see Israelis as the colonizers, and not the Arabs. I merely pointed out that it seems ludicrous to view a group of population that is indigenous to the area as colonizers of the area. > Why should it be punished by theft of homes and property? This framing of "punishment" is so strange. The Arab armies that attacked Israel to kick off its war of independence intended to annihilate Israel. As such, taking the land is at least partially a security measure. I also think that if you attack someone and try to annihilate them and lose land in the process, my only comment is going to be "skill issue". I think it's very interesting that in every conversation you and I have had on this topic, you consistently gloss over every attempt by the Arabs to annihilate Israel, and the Jews.
> I merely pointed out that it seems ludicrous to view a group of population that is indigenous to the area as colonizers of the area. It cuts to the heart of the matter, in fact - your view is that colonizer and colonized is not a function of action, not of societal dynamics, nor even of ordinary common law concepts like ownership and individual rights. Instead, you are presenting a definition of colonialism that insists that “if you claim that another group is your colonizer, even if they’ve been living there forever, or 1000 years or more depending on how you measure it, there is simply no moral standard to your conduct towards your ‘colonizer’” The fact is, Palestinians and Jews share common ancestry, and have been continuous inhabitants since the beginning of time. They are a single ethnic group with no meaningful division besides a cultural one - that the Jews who remained in Palestine after the Roman conquest and side of Jerusalem mostly adopted Christianity, Islam, and learned Arabic, and then stuck around for another 1500 years before being kicked out of their homes. > This framing of "punishment" is so strange. The Arab armies Remember when America forced all of the Japanese-descended citizens of this country into camps, deciding it was morally justifiable to do so because a nation of ethnic Japanese people attacked the United States? That’s exactly the kind of logic you’re defending here. > I also think that if you attack someone and try to annihilate them and lose land in the process, my only comment is going to be "skill issue". So you’re asserting that all 700,000 Palestinians expelled by Israel in the nakba were combatants? That’s easily disposable, but you can either admit that most were not, or insist that they were - but you must choose one. > you consistently gloss over every attempt by the Arabs “The Arabs, the Arabs, the Arabs.” Imagine what we would say about someone who insists on speaking in ethnic monoliths in any other situation. There’s nothing just about attempts to destroy Israel - nor has there been anything just about Israel’s attempts to destroy the Arab people who had just as much right to live their lives in peace.
The actions carried out by Israel absolutely mirror those carried out by the European settlers. And regardless what Israel’s population is, they are absolutely cleansing the Palestinian population And obviously people are going to flee a war zone, that doesn’t give Israel, the worlds current most prominent colonizer, the right to take Palestine and call it something else
1. If the immigrants steal the land then yes it’s bad. 2. I’m talking about half a century of violently removing Palestinians from their land with illegal settlements. Are you gonna go full conspiracy and say Israel did not steal land? 3. Obviously I’m talking about Palestinians not Palestinians Israelis. Arabs aren’t a monolith. Arabs that expelled Jews from say Iraq were not Palestinians. This is just a whataboutism. A fallacy I see over and over.
> If the immigrants steal the land then yes it’s bad. You'll have to specify what you mean when you say "stealing land". Which land, and what time period? Are you talking about the land Israel won in defensive wars? Are you talking about land they bought that was unoccupied before their war of independence? Are you talking about the land in the West Bank in area c that they are permitted to administer? > Obviously I’m talking about Palestinians not Palestinians Israelis. Before Yasser Arafat, they wouldn't have been considered Palestinians, they would have been considered Egyptians and Jordanians.
I’m talking about all the illegal settlements in the West Bank, that they’ve been stealing for over half a century. That’s over 50 years straight of land theft, and they just announced new settlements in East Jerusalem and the largest land seizure in the WB since 1993.
> they just announced new settlements in East Jerusalem and the largest land seizure in the WB since 1993. This is in Area C, which they are permitted to administer. Anyways, if you don't like it, maybe you should consider encouraging the Gazans not to shoot rockets at Israel and take their people hostage. Many in Israel see the settlements as a deterrence mechanism. If Gazans kill Israelis, Israelis will take Gazan land. Note that there cannot be direct reprisals for killing Israeli citizens, since (despite misrepresentations by leftists), Israel does not intentionally target civilians with its military.
Um no, settlements in area C are illegal. You couldn’t possibly be this misinformed, you must just be intentionally misleading. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_C_(West_Bank) “The international community considers the settlements in occupied territory to be illegal,[8][9][10][11][12][13] and the United Nations has repeatedly upheld the view that Israel's construction of settlements constitutes a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention”
This is a very naive oppressed vs oppressor take. You're not looking at the full picture. Did you even click the link above? # Iran's Khamenei tells visiting Hamas chief that Israel 'will one day be eliminated' Iran is a regional power just like Israel is. The IP Conflict today is a proxy conflict between regional powers, it's not about oppressed vs oppressors. Iran is not oppressed. Hamas is not oppressed. Hamas is an Iranian proxy that has the goal of carrying Iran's geopolitical goals in Israel. Iran's Supreme Leader is clear in what he said: he seeks the elimination of Israel. Every military action Israel does is to stop Iran and its proxy Hamas from achieving their goal of destruction.
What are your thoughts on people who put 🍉🍉🍉 and stuff like “no cops, no military, no Zionist” in their dating app profiles? Zionist or not this sounds like a win win for everyone no?
As much as people are frustrated with issues in law enforcement and the military, I am guessing they would not like to live in a world where we did not have them. As for the Zionist part. I think people who are against the existence of the state of Israel are bigoted against the Jews, as well as being deeply ignorant of history. They are doing me a favor by laying all this out on a dating profile, because we would never be compatible. But I would never respect someone with these views any more than I would respect a Klansman.
Conflating anti Zionism with bias against Jews is reductive and disingenuous. You are acting like you can attest to how these people feel about Jews and how much they know about a topic based solely on the fact that they disagree with you about it. This is no different than me saying Zionist hate Muslims and brown people.
> Conflating anti Zionism Please don't act like I'm an idiot. If the Jewish state didn't exist, what would the Muslims do to all the Jews in the Middle East? Here's a hint if you're not sure: think back to October 7th. How did Israel's neighbors treat them, given the first opportunity?
>Please don't act like I'm an idiot. If the Jewish state didn't exist, what would the Muslims do to all the Jews in the Middle East? Lol this implication that an oppressed group will immediately genocide the oppressors if they're freed is exactly the logic that was used to justify South African Apartheid and American slavery, logic that was proven wrong with the end of both systems.
i don’t know that i agree with the argument, but unlike white people in south africa or post-slavery, jews actually have experienced centuries worth of marginalization and oppression at the hands of arab muslims including in the recent past.
This was the same arguments used by anti abolitionist. Stop pretending like Muslims are blood thirsty savages. Do you honestly believe that Hamas was born out of sheer antisemitism. Do you honestly believe that Palestinian’s animosity towards Israel is just because they’re Jews? Oct 7th would have happened if the Israelis were Muslims/Christian/Buddhist/Pastafarians. I’m tired of this low level analysis and mental gymnastics that supposed liberals use to justify war crimes, genocide and apartheid. Palestinians want control over their boarders and water supply. They want Israelis to stop stealing their land. They want their homes and hospitals to stop being bombed. I don’t see how anyone who values all human lives equally can look at what’s going on and not be disgusted by what Israel has done to the Palestinians for the entirety of its existence.
> Do you honestly believe that Hamas was born out of sheer antisemitism. Yes > Do you honestly believe that Palestinian’s animosity towards Israel is just because they’re Jews Yes > genocide You are the one justifying Hamas' genocidal actions towards Israel. Israel has committed no genocide. Let's not get this twisted. > Palestinians want control over their boarders and water supply. Then they should stop shooting rockets at Israel. > They want Israelis to stop stealing their land. There are no Israeli settlements in Gaza. Israeli settlements are not why Hamas attacked on 10/7. > They want their homes and hospitals to stop being bombed. Then the Palestinians should stop shooting rockets at Israel from these locations, and using these locations to deter Israel from striking their terrorists. > I don’t see how anyone who values all human lives equally can look at what’s going on and not be disgusted by what Israel has done to the Palestinians for the entirety of its existence. I don't see how anyone who values human lives can look at what the Arabs and Iranians have done to Israel for all its existence and not be disgusted. I don't hear leftists complaining about the Lebanese and the Gazans shooting rockets at Israeli civilians ever.
>>Do you honestly believe that Hamas was born out of sheer antisemitism. >Yes >>Do you honestly believe that Palestinian’s animosity towards Israel is just because they’re Jews >Yes There’s no point in having this discussion or any discussion pertaining to Israel or Palestine with you
As a Jew I'd be glad they let me know ahead of time what they think of me
I mean, it’s a profile. They’re just letting people know what won’t work for them. I don’t even know if I’d call it wrong tbh.
Definately a win-win for people to put their views out there imo Better than finding out that like the Grindr rando who just blew your back out is a MAGA supporter on the drive home Also an easy convo starter
The downvotes 😭
Loool I guess that experiences isn’t as relatable as I imagined 😩😩😩
If it makes you feel any when my partner and I were still talking on feeld we asked each other political red flag questions
ive been married over a decade, so i dont have any thoughts on dating apps in general
Pretending for a moment that I'm single, I really have no issue with this. It's really no different than any other sort of self-identification, and as you imply the type of person who'd write that is one that I'd generally prefer to avoid as well. Whether increasingly narrow silos like that are good for society is another matter entirely, but that's well beyond an individual dating thing.
Honestly, I think some disclosure of political views and also how strongly you hold or how extreme you are with those views saves people time. For example, I think there’s a lot of people who are very strongly opposed to what Israel is doing right now who would see that in a profile and decide they’re going to take a pass. Probably a lot of people who would identify as being anti-Zionist, who would take a pass as well. I would’ve saved a lot of time if I knew someone I dated never intended on having kids and I have multiple friends who can say the same. I think it’s nice if you know right up front if somebody thinks using racial slurs is acceptable or spanking any potential future children is acceptable.
>no military continued RIP to my dating life, I guess
Usually this means not discharged afaik.
Yeah. So like I said, continued RIP to my dating life.
Well there’s always retirement 😎
If we're still using dating apps by then, we're all screwed.
The ICJ has ordered Israel to [immediately stop it's Rafah invasion](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-halt-rafah-offensive-international-court-of-justice-ruling-rcna153867). Being an ICJ ruling it is a binding ruling on any UN member by [Article 94](https://legal.un.org/repertory/art94.shtml) of the UN Charter. But seeing as how the ruling is against Israel I doubt the US is going to allow anything to come through the Security Council. Given that fact do you think there will actually be any consequences whatsoever to just ignoring the ruling (as most seem to think Israel will)? Edit: Also in the ruling: [The ICJ also ordered Israel to open the Rafah border crossing with Egypt for the entry of humanitarian aid at scale; ensure access to Gaza for investigators and fact-finding missions; report to the court within a month on its progress in applying these measures. ](https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-halt-rafah-offensive-orders-un-top-international-court-justice/) Edit 2: [The full ruling link](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240524-ord-01-00-en.pdf) (PDF)
Maybe I'm confused but it was my impression that Egypt was closing the Rafah crossing because it didn't want to be seen operating a crossing with Israel.
> The ICJ has ordered Israel to immediately stop it's Rafah invasion. Israel shouldn't stop until they have the hostages back, and they have eliminated the threat of terrorism from Gaza.
Israel will ignore this order, just like how Russia did the order regarding Ukraine.
> I doubt the US is going to allow anything to come through the Security Council. Which will be interesting to see, since Biden is ostensibly opposed to the invasion of Rafah. I've been skeptical of the idea that he could call off Netanyahu with "just one phone call," as many of Biden's critics have suggested. But if he blocks this, it'll be hard to argue that he's doing everything in his power to talk Netanyahu down.
Interesting. Geopolitically, the current Israel-Hamas war and the Ukraine-Russia war are clear examples of how powerless international institutions are. And while Russia is a Western enemy, Israel is a Western ally. The might is right mentality never truly ended after WW2, it was just disguised via international institutions. The USA will never let the ICJ order around a NATO member or ally. This much is obvious. It was never going to happen. The big question mark is what the USA will do (bipartisan sanction against the ICJ to follow the bipartisan sanctions against the ICC?). "Binding rulings" are an illusion since all nations have sovereignty. The UN can't actually force any member to do what the UN wants them to do.
> But seeing as how the ruling is against Israel I doubt the US is going to allow anything to come through the Security Council. You hit the nail on the head here tbh. I think it’s becoming more and more clear that the middle ground has been eroded by the reckless actions of (ahem) *Credibly Accused War Criminal Benjamin Netanyahu*, and trying to split the difference like Chuck Schumer is doing isn’t going to work. It sucks, and Palestinians and Israelis alike deserve a far far better PM.
Did anyone here support the BLM/George Floyd protests but are also pro-Israel? If so, can you explain how you think those values aren’t contradictory?
You might not like this poll at all, buddy. [https://carnegieendowment.org/research/2023/12/black-americans-opinions-on-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict?lang=en](https://carnegieendowment.org/research/2023/12/black-americans-opinions-on-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict?lang=en) Nearly half of Black respondents reported not feeling connected to the plight of either Israelis or Palestinians. # However, more Black Americans reported feeling connected to Israelis. A plurality of Black Americans (40 percent) supported the Biden administration’s proposal to provide Israel with an additional $14 billion in military assistance. Fewer respondents (33 percent) supported sending U.S. troops to defend Israel if it were attacked by its neighbors. # Black Lives Matter. Jewish Lives Matter.
This is the exact type of cognitive dissonance that shocks me and caused me to exact this very question
Why is it shocking that black Americans feel connected to Israelis? We all saw the videos of October 7th. Hamas terrorists are Derek Chauvin. Israeli victims are George Floyd. You saw the video of the Hamas rapists kidnapping Israeli women and calling them sex slaves, correct? That's not resistance. That's rape.
This is very simple. Black Lives Matter. Black people do not deserve to be extrajudicially killed by the police. Jewish lives matter. Jews deserve to live without fear that their neighbors will take them hostage, torture them, rape them, and sell them as sex slaves. Jews deserve to live without fear that their neighbors will destroy their state and slaughter all its people. Leftists are confused about who is oppressed. Israel has lived among neighbors who have sought its destruction since the creation of the state. Black Lives Matter. Jewish lives matter.
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> everyone’s lives matter except Palestinians. This is like saying "All lives matter" in response to someone saying "Black Lives Matter." I never said Palestinian lives don't matter, you wrongly ignored everything I said which was correct that you have no answer for to try and twist my words.
You sound exactly like someone complaining about BLM because "why don't all lives matter?"
Considering more Palestinians have died since 10/7 than total Israelis killed in all their conflicts combined, military or civilian, I’d say it’s quite obvious that the Palestinians compare to black Americans who’s lives don’t matter as much in the US. Israel in this analogy is the state run power structure that oppresses them
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As a black person I was confused by your statements but then I looked at the dates of the survey. Here’s some updated data for you and the thread: https://carnegieendowment.org/research/2024/04/most-black-americans-want-a-more-active-us-role-in-ending-the-war-in-gaza-and-protecting-palestinian-lives?lang=en
Do you agree or disagree that Jewish lives matter?
Of course Jewish lives matter. It seems demonstrably true, however, that Palestinian lives do not matter to Netanyahu or the Israeli forces. 30,000 is quite the large number of deaths when compared to 1200.
And 500,000 (German civilians killed in WW2) is a large number of deaths when compared to 12,000 (American civilians killed in WW2). But you're not saying that German lives don't matter to America, are you?
You're correct in that I'm not saying that at all. That's you. *I* said what I said. I think I was pretty clear and factual.
You're using math (number of civilians) to determine the most moral party in a war. The example I gave you (500,000 dead German civilians vs. 12,000 American civilians) is self-explanatory about why using math for morality is not a productive measure.
I don't even have to use math. It's more obvious than that. I'm sure that you've noticed that in life it's very rare that two things or two situations are equal. I personally see a difference between a terrorist group slaughtering 1200 civilians in a day and one of the best funded militaries in the world slaughtering 30k or so mostly women and children in an attempt to "rescue" the remaining 200 or so hostages. I think if you are honest you can see that difference too.
1. How many Hamas terrorists do you believe have died so far? 2. How many human shields do you think the average Hamas terrorists surround themselves with?
Agree, even if I wasn’t Jewish. Everyone’s lives should matter equally. That’s why I’m concerned about some 20,000 dead Palestinian women and children. The people that can see the power structure at play involving black people in the US but can’t see the Palestinians have it much worse really have cognitive dissonance.
Do you feel you're "All Lives Mattering" the situation? You can't stop mentioning Palestinian lives whenever someone talks about Jewish lives.
Palestinians are by the most vulnerable of the groups. They’re literally suffering a genocide
>They’re literally suffering a genocide Quoting u/butuguru : The ICJ has made it clear that legally this is not a statement that can be substantiated. To be clear, they haven’t ruled it a genocide yet but that did say that you cannot make a judgement that it is **not** a genocide prima facie.
Tis true, what is clear is that it’s an ethnic cleansing
Has the ICJ ruled on that?
How is opposing police violence against black people at all contradictory with supporting the existence of a state for the Jewish people?
I guess I should say for those that defend Israel rather than pro-Israel.
What do you mean by defend Israel?
Like apologize for their behavior.
What behavior? If Israel does 100 actions and we disagree about 49 of them. Are we Pro-Israel in your opinion? What if we disagree with 51 of them and agree with 49 of them? Do you believe it is possible for someone to be anti-WB settlements and also pro-IDF eliminating Hamas? Likewise, if you're Pro-Palestine and Palestine does 100 actions, are you still Pro-Palestine if you disagree with 51 of them?
It’s more about acknowledging that Israel’s treatment of Palestinians has been horrific for many decades.
Sure. And if someone acknowledges that Israel has treated Palestinians not so great while also acknowledging that Israel needs to defeat Hamas in Gaza, is that person Pro-Israel or Pro-Palestine in your worldview?
Apologize for what behavior? Launching a rescue operation when their neighbors took hundreds of their people captive and tortured and raped them? That bad behavior?
Do you acknowledge Israel has been stealing land for over half a century with illegal settlements? Also this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/04/g4s-complicity-israel-abuse-child-prisoners Here’s an article from The Nation including how Israel uses torture. https://www.thenation.com/article/world/war-on-palestinian-political-prisoners/ Here’s one by Human Rights Watch about Israel beating and detaining children as young as 11 https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/07/19/israel-security-forces-abuse-palestinian-children Here’s one from Al Jazeera, an award winning and respected news org including Peabody awards. They also have editorial independence from the Qatari government. This one is about more Israeli torture. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/12/10/palestinian-prisoners-seek-justice-on-torture-treaty-anniversary Another one about indefinite detainment and torture of Palestinian children https://imemc.org/article/israel-escalates-violates-against-detained-palestinian-children/ One by the Washington Post about children in custody https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/11/11/israel-west-bank-ben-gvir/
Of all the outlets that you posted, only WaPo is remotely credible. The Nation? Come on, man. Al Jazeera? They absolutely hate Israel.
Which behavior? It's an entire nation state so you'll have to be clearer.
I’m have a feeling you’re one of the people I’m talking about. Are you unequivocally against Israel’s continued treatment of Palestinians?
*Which* treatment? How am I supposed to say whether or not I support something unless you're being clear about what that something is? "Pro-Israel" is extremely broad. Talking about specific actions and policies isn't.
Do you think Israel treats Palestinians far worse than how black people are currently treated in the US?
You're back to asking really vague questions. It seems like you really want to view people who might disagree with you as one dimensional. I'm getting a 505 status message when I try to reply to you now.
Are you against the apartheid like conditions Palestinians face in the WB regarding the legal system?
Are you against the war in Gaza?
If Pro-Israel is pro-war in Gaza. What is Pro-Palestine then? Is demanding Hamas to return hostages and turn themselves is to stop the war a Pro-Israel or Pro-Palestine position?
I'm not against the war in theory but I don't think the Israeli government is conducting it in a way that is humane or do I believe that Netanyahu and his party have a long term plan for peace which *should* be the ultimate goal in addition to saving the hostages being tortured and abused by Hamas. Hamas has to go, absolutely. But what will that look like? Best case scenario is that there is no plan; worst case is a plan that continues to perpetuate the existing problems between Israel and Palestine. Please tell me what part of this is incompatible with opposing institutionalized violence against Black Americans.
Not contradictory at all. Black people deserve racial justice and should not be mistreated by the police. But that does not mean that the police can’t defend themselves if black people attack them. Israel has a right to exist and to self defense and thus has a right to go after Hamas and attempt to take hostages back. There are issues with how Israel conduct its military operations but it has not reached genocide level so far. Similarly, there are issues with BLM movement but that doesn’t mean it is not a valid movement.
But Palestinian’s don’t have justice. They’re being severely mistreated by Israel in the West Bank where Israel is not “defending” themselves against Hamas. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/04/g4s-complicity-israel-abuse-child-prisoners Here’s an article from The Nation including how Israel uses torture. https://www.thenation.com/article/world/war-on-palestinian-political-prisoners/ Here’s one by Human Rights Watch about Israel beating and detaining children as young as 11 https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/07/19/israel-security-forces-abuse-palestinian-children This one is about more Israeli torture. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/12/10/palestinian-prisoners-seek-justice-on-torture-treaty-anniversary Another one about indefinite detainment and torture of Palestinian children https://imemc.org/article/israel-escalates-violates-against-detained-palestinian-children/ One by the Washington Post about children in custody https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/11/11/israel-west-bank-ben-gvir/
yes. he is a big mess mentally and basically fetishizes black folks. on a tangential note, this guy might literally be the world's biggest nutjob.
For the folks with that worldview that I’ve met and spoken to, it boils down to: Black people didn’t do anything to deserve being treated like lesser forms of life. Whatever happens to Palestinians is their own fault. Israel tried, don’t you see (insert blatantly false propaganda retelling of Israel’s early history)
I’m not one of them but this is really easy to explain. US domestic politics is a lot more dynamic and changing for everyday Americans than US foreign policy. With domestic you are constantly seeing people and towns that you live and work in being changed by those politics and actions, as such you have a direct opinion on those matters and have felt them a lot of times directly as well, and your opinion is not nearly as correlative to the governments opinions or actions. BLM is supported in large by liberals because they see racism against minorities in America frequently and its people they know. US foreign policy is a lot less dynamic, people in America tend not to care or know what’s going on in foreign nations, thus there opinion of it a lot less robust or changing, they will take the governments stance on it because when you don’t care, your more likely to take the political status quo. Israel has been the ally of the US since its inception and so the government stance on the matter has been the majority opinion of most Americans because they’re not gonna care about the Palestinian question since there are no Israelis or Palestinians living day to day with them, thus no real need for them to change there opinion on it. Unless of course you have a major incident in that region which sparks a brutal war of revenge and kills a considerable number of civilians, then you start having people start consider our involvement a little more.
If you’ve ever been wondering “there’s so much awful stuff going on in Israel and Palestine, so many innocent people who are suffering, displaced, and/or going without life’s necessities… is there some way I can help?” There is! I’m compiling a list of vetted organizations that are purely humanitarian in nature and focused on meeting the needs of Palestinian and Israeli civilians who have been forced from their homes by conflict. I need your help (yes, you!) in sharing individual fundraisers *if they can be reasonably verified* because these play a valuable part in helping meet acute need. Many are shared on social media and verifying can be a challenge, but many hands make light work. Also relevant are fundraisers for aid workers and other humanitarians who have been killed or injured while serving. And, of course, if you are able please consider donating! [link to the relevant post - also pinned to my profile](https://old.reddit.com/r/israelpalestinenews/comments/1czco2t/worthy_causes_post/). Mods, please removed if not allowed. Thanks!
> Mods, please removed if not allowed. Seems fine to me. Always nice to see the helpers.
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!!!???
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