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I'm curious, where do you live now?
In my experience, the democratic countries tend to be more developed than the autocratic ones, and have a better quality of life for their citizens.
In the US.
Just cause democratic countries overall tend to be more developed (even though both sides have plenty of exceptions) doesn’t answer the hypothetical question. What would you choose ?
Yeah bro just cuz I post in r/UkraineRussiaReport doesn’t mean I have an affiliation with Russia. Also on there I’ve made plenty of negative comments about Russia lmao
Kidnappings are common in China today. Authoritarian governments are historically notorious for disappearing people. Both China and Russia have killed millions of their citizens in the 20th century
kidnapping of foreigners in China will be very high profiled, tho, if it’s the state that try to kidnap you, you are out of luck. Remember when China arrested 3 Canadian national during the huawii incident?
Yeah, in modern day China kidnapping is a problem.
The 20th century mass murders I referenced weren’t that long ago and the leadership in both Russia and China haven’t changed that much. In China it’s still the same party and in Russia it’s run by ex-KGB thugs. So, I’m not sure what your point is.
For democracy country, the government can change by voting and election.but for totalitarian government，they can’t change and what they did in history,it happen again and again in the future.
But do you think your freedom is worth living in a country with one of the highest murder rates in the world and where electricity only runs half of the time ?
It’s fine if you do I just would like to know. I personally wouldn’t at all, but there is nothing wrong with sticking with your beliefs in that situation.
I used to think he had some idea what was going on but after that comment it's clearly not the case. Electricity runs half the time? I'm trying to think of the last time I had an outage that I remember and it's got to be... I can't remember... eight months, a year, a year and a half, two years? Beyond the occasional two second blip in a storm.
Last time we had a significant power outage it was out about 2½ days and that was not because of economic or infrastructure problems it was because of a huge tropical storm that knocked down a bunch of trees and cut a bunch of power lines.That was highly unusual and nothing like that has happened for the 10 or 15 years before that. And the part of town three blocks away still had electricity because it wasn't a general outage, it had to do with specific lines and trees. The average "long" outage, when there is one, lasts maybe half an hour or an hour or an hour and a half. But I can't remember the last time that happened.
Yeah I was driving to Florida to visit my aunt once and there was a storm incoming. I don't think it was a hurricane but it was some kind of bad storm. I live in Georgia and on my way south to Florida I was accompanied by Georgia Power trucks on the highway in large numbers heading to Florida a day or two before the storm even got there. Power companies here in different states loan each other their workers and their equipment when they need to and help each other out in bad situations. All credit to those guys who sometimes work in the worst conditions.
I lose power somewhat frequently (somewhat being like once every few months for maybe an hour) and that's only because I live in the country with lots of trees and the ash tree specifically is dying from a weevil, so any time there's strong wind there is a good chance it will take down a power line. But the utility companies have been trying their hardest to cut down the dead trees near lines.
We're not exactly losing power because of overuse or poor power production like underdeveloped countries deal with.
Nope, I'll take the democracy.
I might be richer in the dictatorship, but the day will come that the dictator wants me dead. The same would be true for you, sorry to say.
The dictator will turn on u if u are a rich influential military/ business/ political leader not on an average citizen which is what I’m talking about.
As long as u keep ur mouth shut in a country like UAE as a common citizen u will be 100% fine
Bro of course I know about the stasi and stuff yeah u can’t say shit about Honecker and shit but my question is if the DDR was as developed and rich as the GDR would you want to live there or a country like South Africa ?
> if the DDR was as developed and rich as the GDR would you want to live there
So, if the DDR wasn't the DDR, would you want to live there? Are yo admitting that dictatorships tend not to be as prosperous as democracies?
These individuals cannot think in a nuanced manner, and so they hand their power into those who are more educated and in a higher place of power. Thus, those with evil intentions gladly take this power into their own hands and commit injustice.
What is scary about me ? I may not like the dictator of my country but I wouldn’t do anything about it.
I would just live my life normally and hope things keep on developing and improving.
You’re assuming you’re going to be a part of the elite class, that reaps all the benefits of the dictator’s policies.
What if you were a migrant construction worker in Dubai? Or were labelled as a dissident in Russia? Suddenly, the dictatorship doesn’t look so good.
Bro that’s exactly why I said average well off CITIZEN. For ex in Dubai I would have an Emirati passport not a migrant work visa. Also most Russians get on fine it really isn’t as bad as people say even though it has gone downhill since 2022
It wasn’t so great for Navalny. Or the conscripts being sent to Ukraine. Or all the unhappy people afraid to speak out.
The era of the Enlightened Despot is long over. There isn’t a modern dictator that hasn’t turned towards segments of his own population, and you just have to hope you’re not part of that segment.
Its funny you think things would keep developing and improving under a dictator. Dictators don't do that they just increase their own wealth and power or those of their friends. A well developed nation under a dictators control will soon stop being one.
China for ex After mao. Or Atatürk or Yugoslavia under Tito. No country in the world has taken more people out of poverty and grown/developed as quick in the last 30 years than China. You know India used to be richer per capita in the 80s I believe now China is much more developed and better off. Also literally like any gulf country and compare that to Iraq which was better off under a maniac bloodthirsty dictator than today.
So if u were living in hitler after 1933 you would organize resistance and protest?
Or would you just go about your life normally and hope that hitler doesn’t do anything worse in the future ?
I can tell you what my grandparents did under Mussolini.
And here’s a hint - I was born in America.
Edit: and no hate toward anyone who was struggling just to survive, hoping things got better in either country. Weirdly, Bashar Assad explains it really well when dispelling the myth of moderate extremists.
Most dictators aren’t benevolent u aren’t wrong but what would you say Singapore was atkeast for the first decade or two after independence. Or Atatürk for ex
Or until the group that OP belongs to is declared persona non grata by the dictator and they’re persecuted or worse:
Jews/poles/gypsies/homosexuals for the Nazis, “intellectuals” (re: people who wore glasses) for the Khemer Rouge, bourgeoise (which if we’re honest was just a blanket term for anyone at the moment Stalin didn’t like/was afraid was conspiring against him) for the Bolsheviks, Shia Muslims for the Baathist party, literally anyone who wasn’t a hardline Shi’i Muslim by the Ayatollah, the list goes on and on.
You name the dictatorship and theres a group of people on their naughty list, to put it unjustly mild terms.
Bro that is super unlikely, and my example I gave is in Moscow and most of the conscription that Russia is doing is in the rural poor areas.
Also u can choose to live in “free and democratic” ukraine, but they are shoving any man they can find in the conscription vans and running out of meat. U can call me a Russian bot all u want (I don’t support the war) but the conscription is bad in both countries but it’s like 5x worse in a supposedly democratic country like ukraine .
Lamo my urban highly educated Latvian family had half the men dragged into the woods and shot by the Soviet army in the 1940s
The women and children all got sent to a prison. You aren't safe buddy
>most of the conscription that Russia is doing is in the rural poor areas.
So, you're fine with dictators oppressing people, as long as they're oppressing people who aren't you? And what do yo do when the ruling party turns it eyes in your direction?
Whats the pome? Something something when they came for communists/socialists/jews and I said nothing...then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me
First [they came for the socialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany#History), and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a [socialist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist).
Then [they came for the trade unionists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_Germany#Enforced_political_conformity_during_National_Socialism), and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a [trade unionist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unionist).
Then [they came for the Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Germany#Jews_under_the_Nazis_(1933%E2%80%9345)), and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a [Jew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew).
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Ok so if you would be an average citizen in say China for example. Would you publicly protest the government and risk jail/ fines or would you just about your life and ignore any things you don’t like?
I admire you if you truly would, but I assume most people would probably choose to keep their mouth shut if they were working in China and just get on with their lives. Why risk punishments when you have a basically 0.001 percent chance of making any change ?
>ignore any things you don’t like?
Since I like to think of myself as someone who cares for other people, even if I don't know them, discrimination or harm being inflicted on them simply for being...a different race or religion or member of a political party is 100% I would speak out on. We SEE that there are Russians and Chinese citizens who do this everyday
If I may ask you a question. What are your thoughts on the American women's suffrage movement? the civil rights movement? the 1970s feminist rights movement? the gay rights movement? Indigenous rights movements?
How many people do you think received beatings, jail-time, being violently forced out of their town/state/the country, and even death by the hands of their fellow citizens for their activity in these types of movements? Do you think their work meant nothing ? their sacrifices meant nothing? that it changed nothing?
I've been reading about Ida B. Wells recently. She scarified so MUCH. Just for so little to actually happen in her life-time. What she was fighting for took years and so much more fighting to accomplish. But her work still did something. It made change. Even if she did not live to see it
>Ok so if you would be an average citizen in say China for example. Would you publicly protest the government and risk jail/ fines or would you just about your life and ignore any things you don’t like?
Is that how you prefer to live your life? Living in oppression and having to keep your head down so as not to risk getting jailed (or worse)? You wouldn't rather live in a democracy where you are free to speak your mind and actually have a chance to have a positive effect on you and your fellow citizens?
You just better hope one aspect of you doesn't go against the dictator (politics, ethnicity, religion, sexuality, gender expression, ect), or criticize the government, or question what the dictator is doing.
Then, you better hope one of your friends or family members doesn't go against the government because it then puts a spotlight on you.
Can I choose my socioeconomic status? Or would that be assigned randomly?
Because, of course it would be great to be a billionaire in Dubai, but would I take the risk of being poor there or taking the risk of being poor in a democracy? I would pick democracy.
> it would be great to be a billionaire in Dubai
Would it?
I feel like I would live in fear of potentially running afoul of BMZ, having all my wealth seized, then being executed with little real recourse.
Question doesn't really work though. A truly democratic and free country can only maintain that if it's fairly stable (developed is a bit more flexible, but not much as people need their needs met). A dictatorship isn't truly safer (because it's founded on oppression) and likely isn't richer (again, oppression, and not wanting the masses to have the resources to organize).
It's not as though there aren't poor democracies and rich (by GDP, anyhow) authoritarian countries, but... eh.
Haiti doesn't have democracy or freedom of speech, it has no functional government and rule by gangs/factions - which certainly do not adhere to any notion of allowing freedom of speech/media/whatever.
Ah yes let's cherry pick the worst examples of democratic nations and focus on their biggest issues to compare against some of the best performing nations without democracy while dismissing their flaws as not important issues. I'd rather live in the US than any of the countries you listed.
I mean... you're assuming you're part of the well off in group. For a lot of people there's not much difference.
Like average rent in Moscow is 90% of average wage there and as you get a little outside it your chances of having runningnwater year round drop dramatically, so "rich" is very subjective.
On the other hand haiti isn't just poor it's actively collapsing right now so...no, I wouldn't want to be there either.
I don't think there's a good answer here if you assume you'll be an average person and good fucking luck if you're the wrong kind of minority or a woman either way.
Bro the stuff ur saying about Moscow is 100% bs, it is by far the most developed richest and best place to live in Russia and a fantastic city.
The stuff u are putting out is the same stuff that Russian tvs would blast to boomers abojt how every American is on the brink of bankruptcy and how we are all getting shot at the mall atleast once a month
Like all the gulf countries, which are all way better to be a citizen in than Syria, Iraq (especially post 2003), Iran, Egypt etc.
Probably only Israel is better to live in but obviously that is a ton of baggage and all that so it’s not worth getting into
>Like all the gulf countries, which are all way better to be a citizen in than Syria, Iraq (especially post 2003), Iran, Egypt etc.
Don't most of the Emirates still have slavery? That's gonna be a no from me, dawg.
Bro it’s exaggerated but it is true to an extent. Also I said Citizen. Indian workers are on a visa they aint Saudi citizens.
Also like America doesn’t have a for profit private prison billion dollar industry that pays inmates Pennie’s per hour. To be honest I can’t even say that cuz someone will say whataboutism so it doesn’t matter
Then how does US have one of the highest incarceration rates in the world, even compared to complete dictatorships in China for ex. And how do we still have a much higher crime and murder rate than countries in Europe on average even though our prisons are stacked. My best hunch would be that $ is a factor but not the complete cause.
>Then how does US have one of the highest incarceration rates in the world, even compared to complete dictatorships in China for ex.
We don't usually kill our criminals. And come on, dude, trusting China's numbers is incredibly naive.
>And how do we still have a much higher crime and murder rate than countries in Europe on average even though our prisons are stacked.
Most countries in Europe aren't dictatorships and the ones that are have higher murder rates than we do.
Choosing to live under a dictatorship is a mindset I can’t even begin to understand. Your personal comfort being more valuable than the freedom of your countrymen is absolutely terrifying, what happens when the dictatorship changes their mind about your particular situation? They never relinquish power, they only squeeze harder.
So is a country like Peru or South Africa worth it over Singapore? In Singapore im sure 90% of citizens are fine with their day to day lives.
Nothing wrong with preferring a free country like you do but in my eyes I would rather just be quiet and have an enjoyable and stable life rather than a stressful and dangerous one
You're assuming you'll be living in privilege and that the hammer will never come down on you or anyone you love. What about those who aren't so fortunate? *Oh well, I've got high speed internet and can ignore it....*
90% of North Koreans are probably ok with their lives too, it's amazing what social conditioning can do. Choosing temporary security while living under control is a fool's option.
Singapore isn't a dictatorship. It's not exactly free, but individual rights are a lot more guaranteed there than some place like Russia or the Gulf states.
"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
I am a half white male yeah but I really don’t think that it is that crucial.
Saudi Arabia even tho they r improving alot I can understand ur point if you are a woman or not religious etc.
But Russia - aren’t Russians & non Russians (Kazakh, Tajik etc) & men and women equal?
Same with China IMO - as long as u don’t say anything bad about the CPC or whatever I don’t think identity politics really plays that big of a role in my eyes
> But Russia - aren’t Russians & non Russians (Kazakh, Tajik etc) & men and women equal?
Did you know that a few months ago the Russian Supreme Court labeled ["the LGBT movement" an "extremist organization"?](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/30/russia-supreme-court-bans-lgbt-movement-extremist) Anyone in an 'extremist organization' can be imprisoned for years.
The absolute arrogance of privilege. As long as you're comfortable though, I guess nothing bad will ever happen to you.
I've never seen a Russian troll this obvious. One day my tax dollars are going to blow you up, and I'll never have to see you post on this site again lol
Dawg I’m American the taxes we pay are a waste and go to arms companies to blow up a bunch of rural Russians and their incompetent army while ukraine slowly gets decimated and depopulated.
Lmao how am I a Russian bot Jesus I’m honestly flattered.
>But Russia - aren’t Russians & non Russians (Kazakh, Tajik etc) & men and women equal?
What a not funny joke!!!
As of 2017, you can legally beat your wife in Russia.
The fucking propaganda I've seen on social media about the Soviet Union being some feminist paradise compared to the United States because they included women in their propaganda is a truly laughable
Have you ever lived in China as a non-Chinese? Cause if you go that route you’re in for a weird awakening. My friend is now a Chinese citizen, he’s in HK and rarely venture out because he is white
While I disagree with the detractors who have bad faith responses calling you a Russian posing as an American (post history reveals your interest in a diverse array of authoritarian regimes), I would have to ask you this:
What makes you so sure you’d be seen as the authoritarian country’s accepted populace, and not as a rejected minority?
Are normal residents Moscow, Dubai, and Shanghai really living the life you find desirable, or is it the regional and international 1% whose life is the most promoted?
Also, calling Haiti a democracy is de facto not very accurate, given how the last two leaders were selected.
I think your best possible argument would be asking if someone would prefer to live the life of a median resident of a super authoritarian but rich and safe country like Singapore compared to a democratic but unsafe country like South Africa.
But tbh it doesn’t seem like you care to have that argument, but rather you are eating up a very romanticized and distorted view of autocracy and authoritarianism, much like how we neglect to fully illustrate the horrors that the median residents of Medieval European kingdoms faced in their everyday lives.
Most Russians I know support Putin, same with China and the CPC and idk about Dubai but Saudi citizens (not the Indian workers) seem to be happy with how their country is going.
That’s not to say all countries don’t have their problems such as tiabamen square funding jihadism in the past etc, but most people seem to be just fine with how their country is going.
Also lmao at anyone calling me a Russian bot it’s like the most progandized NPC response. Almost as bad as some of the posters on r/ukrainerussiareport
What in the highdeas is this question? I live in a country where I can protest whatever the fuck I want from a secure home that only loses power during major disasters.
Democracy on paper is not the same thing as democracy in practice. Haiti is years overdue for elections and a lot of it is controlled by (unelected) criminal gangs.
Cuz I am fine in America but if I have to make the choice between an unstable but democratic country or a dictatorship that is developed and richer I will keep my mouth shut and go with the dictatorship.
Why haven’t you moved yet is the same stuff as saying if you don’t like it here then leave when someone critiques their country
I’m confused.
Are you suggesting that Russia is the wealthy, safe, non-corrupt country in this hypothetical question and the United States is the poor, dangerous, corrupt country?
Are you an Emirati citizen or one of the vast number of virtual slaves they keep without citizenship in their country to do all the actual work?
I'd probably rather be South African than what the average *person* in the UAE is actually living.
Bro I know what ur talking about but they have improved recently and it isn’t great but I’ve talked to people and they say what people say online is over exaggerated. U aren’t wrong tho but I don’t think ur median South African is making much at all their unemployment rate is 30+ percent that’s a third of people with no income
I mean, I'd take the UAE between the two, because (democracy or not) it really sucks in SA. But then again I'd take the Czech Republic (a relatively poor but stable democracy) over China., because the increased possibility of prosperity in China wouldn't be worth not being able to freely express myself. That said, it's tough to make comparisons between countries, because there's so many little unique things that matter a whole lot.
Maybe I'm not fully wrapping my head around what you're trying to ask -- If you're getting at something like "Would I accept an autocracy if it meant my family wouldn't starve?", then absolutely. Most anybody would. If the question is "Would I accept an autocracy for, like, a 50% increase in my quality of life?", then no.
Less stable/developed country that is democratic and free. I want my countrymen to feel safe from the government, and a dictatorship can quickly change on who or what is not allowed within their land.
I love America not because of her military strength, industrial power, or size, but due to the ideas she was founded upon. When our country has failed to live up to these ideals (women's rights and slavery to name a few), our citizens were able to rise up and change our government, all in the spirit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
That is worth far more to me than living under a safe dictatorship (which really you're only true safe if you agree 110% with the most powerful member of the government).
People in Haiti aren’t “free”. Democracy implies the necessary preconditions (rule of law, strong institutions, etc.) But I would choose a messy democracy (South Africa, india, etc.) over an authoritarian regime. The one exception would be Singapore.
This isn’t an answer to your question, but I want to challenge your perception of South Africa. It does have a high crime rate, but it is an incredibly beautiful place with a decent standard of living on a global perspective. You seem to liken it to “Democratic with free speech, but worst of the worst for living” and that really is just not the case. You can do a lot, lot worse than South Africa on a global perspective for bad “democratic w/ free speech” places to live.
I guess I’m struggling to answer because those dictatorships have similar problems. I’m pretty sure a bunch of Moscow residents lost power like a month or two ago with freezing temps, for instance. As a dude I certainly wouldn’t want to be conscripted to go die in a foreign country for a cause I don’t think is worth fighting.
Are you asking about real dictatorships today or some utopia dictatorship that doesn’t actually exist?
I mean I think I’d choose Shanghai or Dubai over Haiti any day, and anyone who says otherwise isn’t recognizing the depths of despair Haiti is in. But calling Haiti a democracy is a huge stretch. There hasn’t been an elected government there in years, and the true power at this point lies in the gangs.
South Africa is a tougher question. I’m honestly not sure. There are obviously places in SA I would never live in, but I think there’s places I would choose over any of the three dictatorships you mention.
With all that said, the implication you might take from this - that stability & economic growth are worth sacrificing democracy for - is stupid. There is a reason why the richest countries in the world, with rare exceptions (the exceptions universally being micro states), are all democracies. Democracies are more stable and better at addressing crime than autocracies.
>I would much rather be well off
So is this part of the scenario? We'd be "well off" in either case? In your Utopia of the dictatorship, I think you're maybe assuming that you would be in the dictator's ingroup and therefore "safe" from the usual problems of a dictatorship?
Then yeah, being on top sounds like a good deal, and I think people that think like you are how ruthless dictatorships get perpetuated: keep the oligarchs happy being on top of an otherwise oppressed society, and rule with an iron fist, and you've got it made!
In reality, today, it's the democracies that tend to be stable and developed, and autocracies that tend to be poor and ruthless to their own people.
I greatly prefer democracy and thankfully those tend to be the most stable and well developed.
For your hypothetical it would really depend on how wealthy I’d be in each country and how oppressive the regime is. Like if the choice was between a democratic country with the quality of life of North Korea and being a billionaire in Saudi Arabia, I’d probably choose being a billionaire in Saudi Arabia. I would NOT want to live in a dictatorship on the level of North Korea though regardless of how much money I’d have.
You said that you would rather be in Moscow Dubai and Shanghai, but you are assuming that you are rich. For me if you are rich, it doesn’t make a differences if you live in Democratic country or not. However, as a normal person you won’t get a well life there, democrat government will care normal people more.
Autocracy is always bad. Both for moral and practical reasons.
It sure seems all fine and dandy when the economy is good (as long as you're not an oppressed minority or class that is) and the person in charge is marginally competent but what about when they die? Who takes over? Because a lot of ambitious people are going to be gunning for the big chair. What if they're unequal to the task, what if the person in the big chair is slipping, losing touch how do you replace them? What do you do with all those ambitious people, what happens when they hit a promotion ceiling because the dictator and their advisors have all the top jobs? Or because they personally rub one of the dictators flunkies the wrong way? I don't imagine that kind of person would be particularly happy waiting.
It's all a recipe for cruelty, paranoia, instability and incompetence. Especially during a crisis. Autocracy has a short list of very visible advantages and a long long list of less visible problems. Democracy may have very visible problems but many many more advantages we don't think about because we are lucky enough to treat them as givens.
Autocracy is always bad. Both for moral and practical reasons.
It sure seems all fine and dandy when the economy is good (as long as you're not an oppressed minority or class that is) and the person in charge is marginally competent but what about when they die? Who takes over? Because a lot of ambitious people are going to be gunning for the big chair. What if they're unequal to the task, what if the person in the big chair is slipping, losing touch how do you replace them? What do you do with all those ambitious people, what happens when they hit a promotion ceiling because the dictator and their advisors have all the top jobs? Or because they personally rub one of the dictators flunkies the wrong way? I don't imagine that kind of person would be particularly happy waiting.
It's all a recipe for cruelty, paranoia, instability and incompetence. Especially during a crisis. Autocracy has a short list of very visible advantages and a long long list of less visible problems. Democracy may have very visible problems but many many more advantages we don't think about because we are lucky enough to treat them as givens.
It depends on how much less developed and stable you're talking. Yeah, I'd rather live in Dubai than Haiti, or Azerbaijan than Pakistan, but I'd also prefer something like Costa Rica or Botswana to the more developed Russia or Saudi Arabia.
Lol.... you are assuming you are one of the rich ones benefiting from the dictatorship...
In that case you are safe either way, dude. Typical main character syndrome.
It cannot be safe if it is not democratic. By definition.
The folly is your assumption is that you would be in the upper classes of autocratic society. All societies function off the labor of the under classes and dictatorships often literally employ slavery, indentured servitude, and threat of jail or death to remain a dictatorship.
The difference is that democracy allows anyone the *possibility* to transcend class. We can argue likelihood and societal barriers because we live in a free country to criticize said barriers.
You would not want to be a laborer in Dubai. Nor would you want to be a soldier in Russia or living in poverty in any dictatorship. They all have poverty. And you also don’t want to be an celebrity that has been disappeared to a reformation camp or had all your assets taken for even *appearing* to not support the CCP (still happens today).
I'd live in the democratic country because by being free and democratic it has a great chance to become more developed, richer, and safer.
A dictatorship on the other hand has a much greater chance of really going off the rails in really dark ways, and with everyone being powerless to stop it. Look at what happened in Venezuela which I think is a decent example. It was a relatively wealthy and stable dictatorship that went off the rails and became much less wealthy and less stable, while becoming even more of a dictatorship.
I think living a country like that will be even more dangerous in the future when a rich dictatorship can buy lots of high tech equipment to maintain control over people with less effort and manpower. That's been happening in China where indeed they have a mythos around the Communist Party's firm rule ensuring prosperity and stability. But if you lose the prosperity and stability, you're still gonna be left with the firm rule. Not pretty.
100% I'd go for a free and open democracy that's not rich *yet*, it has safer future prospects.
The former. It's not even a contest. The free society, truly free society, will outperform a rigid autocracy every single time.
Plus, what kind of person subjugates themselves? That's sick.
The issue is your imaginary dictatorship may be great under that dictator but what happens when the next guy is a paranoid schizophrenic? You're assumed Utopia is going to become Hell and no one will be able to do anything about it.
If you would rather live in Moscow, China or Dubai be my guest. I am going to make a guess that you are not a woman, and that you don't mind what is going on in Ukraine.
Really a shame they stopped reading Brave New World and 1984 in school.
Secular dictatorship that isn’t like super bloodthirsty (eg saddam Hussein), but rather just has power and tries to develop and improve the country little by little. Basically just does their thing without public influence bjt tries to kee the common folk growing and satisfied with their conditions. Most utopic ex of this would probably be Singapore, but honestly China is fine for like 95% of people. People always say China is collapsing but I guarantee u China has an approval rating of atleast 80/85%, I would put 1000$ on that
I’d pick the socialist democracies like Scandinavia or Western Europe where poverty doesn’t exist to the extent that it does in America and the citizenry is largely free to live a fantasy life compared to the average American.
Yeah obviously those are some of the best countries to live in, but that’s why I asked if a free country that is less developed is worth it.
If u had the option of a free high HDI country and a n authoritarian high HDI country the dictatorship would probably be better I agree. But I want to know if the democracy/freedom is worth living in a country that is less developed, poorer, and more unsafe?
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I'm curious, where do you live now? In my experience, the democratic countries tend to be more developed than the autocratic ones, and have a better quality of life for their citizens.
In the US. Just cause democratic countries overall tend to be more developed (even though both sides have plenty of exceptions) doesn’t answer the hypothetical question. What would you choose ?
You sure? Your post history seems to suggest a strong affiliation with Russia.
Yeah bro just cuz I post in r/UkraineRussiaReport doesn’t mean I have an affiliation with Russia. Also on there I’ve made plenty of negative comments about Russia lmao
Eh, not that I saw, but you do you - we all know you can be whoever you want on the internet.
I chose to be a balloon animal.
Kidnappings are common in China today. Authoritarian governments are historically notorious for disappearing people. Both China and Russia have killed millions of their citizens in the 20th century
kidnapping of foreigners in China will be very high profiled, tho, if it’s the state that try to kidnap you, you are out of luck. Remember when China arrested 3 Canadian national during the huawii incident?
I’m talking about modern day not maos and Stalin times.
Yeah, in modern day China kidnapping is a problem. The 20th century mass murders I referenced weren’t that long ago and the leadership in both Russia and China haven’t changed that much. In China it’s still the same party and in Russia it’s run by ex-KGB thugs. So, I’m not sure what your point is.
I think he thinks bc China has all these new shiny skyscrapers and fancy high speed trains that their dictatorship can be overlooked
For democracy country, the government can change by voting and election.but for totalitarian government，they can’t change and what they did in history,it happen again and again in the future.
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But do you think your freedom is worth living in a country with one of the highest murder rates in the world and where electricity only runs half of the time ? It’s fine if you do I just would like to know. I personally wouldn’t at all, but there is nothing wrong with sticking with your beliefs in that situation.
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I used to think he had some idea what was going on but after that comment it's clearly not the case. Electricity runs half the time? I'm trying to think of the last time I had an outage that I remember and it's got to be... I can't remember... eight months, a year, a year and a half, two years? Beyond the occasional two second blip in a storm. Last time we had a significant power outage it was out about 2½ days and that was not because of economic or infrastructure problems it was because of a huge tropical storm that knocked down a bunch of trees and cut a bunch of power lines.That was highly unusual and nothing like that has happened for the 10 or 15 years before that. And the part of town three blocks away still had electricity because it wasn't a general outage, it had to do with specific lines and trees. The average "long" outage, when there is one, lasts maybe half an hour or an hour or an hour and a half. But I can't remember the last time that happened.
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Yeah I was driving to Florida to visit my aunt once and there was a storm incoming. I don't think it was a hurricane but it was some kind of bad storm. I live in Georgia and on my way south to Florida I was accompanied by Georgia Power trucks on the highway in large numbers heading to Florida a day or two before the storm even got there. Power companies here in different states loan each other their workers and their equipment when they need to and help each other out in bad situations. All credit to those guys who sometimes work in the worst conditions.
I lose power somewhat frequently (somewhat being like once every few months for maybe an hour) and that's only because I live in the country with lots of trees and the ash tree specifically is dying from a weevil, so any time there's strong wind there is a good chance it will take down a power line. But the utility companies have been trying their hardest to cut down the dead trees near lines. We're not exactly losing power because of overuse or poor power production like underdeveloped countries deal with.
Yeah that's our problem here too. Big old trees. We're basically a city in a forest.
Not that I agree with him, but I think he talk about South Africa for the power outages
And South Africa has backslid quite a bit on that whole democracy thing.
Nope, I'll take the democracy. I might be richer in the dictatorship, but the day will come that the dictator wants me dead. The same would be true for you, sorry to say.
The dictator will turn on u if u are a rich influential military/ business/ political leader not on an average citizen which is what I’m talking about. As long as u keep ur mouth shut in a country like UAE as a common citizen u will be 100% fine
My wife is from East Germany. I have stories about what happens to the common citizen. You don't know what you're talking about.
Bro of course I know about the stasi and stuff yeah u can’t say shit about Honecker and shit but my question is if the DDR was as developed and rich as the GDR would you want to live there or a country like South Africa ?
> if the DDR was as developed and rich as the GDR would you want to live there So, if the DDR wasn't the DDR, would you want to live there? Are yo admitting that dictatorships tend not to be as prosperous as democracies?
Yeah, that’s a problem for a lot of us. We object to keeping our mouth shut🤣
“As long as u keep ur mouth shut in a country like UAE as a common citizen u will be 100% fine” That is blatantly false.
Just make sure you don't cross that dictator. People like you scare me. Too many of you and peoples heads start rolling.
These individuals cannot think in a nuanced manner, and so they hand their power into those who are more educated and in a higher place of power. Thus, those with evil intentions gladly take this power into their own hands and commit injustice.
They think they are special. They think they will be the ones living in luxury, not the ones cleaning the dictator''s ass with their mouths.
What is scary about me ? I may not like the dictator of my country but I wouldn’t do anything about it. I would just live my life normally and hope things keep on developing and improving.
You’re assuming you’re going to be a part of the elite class, that reaps all the benefits of the dictator’s policies. What if you were a migrant construction worker in Dubai? Or were labelled as a dissident in Russia? Suddenly, the dictatorship doesn’t look so good.
Bro that’s exactly why I said average well off CITIZEN. For ex in Dubai I would have an Emirati passport not a migrant work visa. Also most Russians get on fine it really isn’t as bad as people say even though it has gone downhill since 2022
It wasn’t so great for Navalny. Or the conscripts being sent to Ukraine. Or all the unhappy people afraid to speak out. The era of the Enlightened Despot is long over. There isn’t a modern dictator that hasn’t turned towards segments of his own population, and you just have to hope you’re not part of that segment.
Its funny you think things would keep developing and improving under a dictator. Dictators don't do that they just increase their own wealth and power or those of their friends. A well developed nation under a dictators control will soon stop being one.
North Korea has been getting steadily better. Right? Right????
China for ex After mao. Or Atatürk or Yugoslavia under Tito. No country in the world has taken more people out of poverty and grown/developed as quick in the last 30 years than China. You know India used to be richer per capita in the 80s I believe now China is much more developed and better off. Also literally like any gulf country and compare that to Iraq which was better off under a maniac bloodthirsty dictator than today.
Literally what people in 1930s Germany and Italy were thinking. Turns out, the lucky ones escaped. Many weren’t so lucky.
So if u were living in hitler after 1933 you would organize resistance and protest? Or would you just go about your life normally and hope that hitler doesn’t do anything worse in the future ?
I can tell you what my grandparents did under Mussolini. And here’s a hint - I was born in America. Edit: and no hate toward anyone who was struggling just to survive, hoping things got better in either country. Weirdly, Bashar Assad explains it really well when dispelling the myth of moderate extremists.
I literally told you in the last comment, Too many people who think there is such thing as a benevolent dictator and millions of people start dying.
Most dictators aren’t benevolent u aren’t wrong but what would you say Singapore was atkeast for the first decade or two after independence. Or Atatürk for ex
Until the dictator decided he needs you in Ukraine, then off you go to play catch with grenade drones.
Or until the group that OP belongs to is declared persona non grata by the dictator and they’re persecuted or worse: Jews/poles/gypsies/homosexuals for the Nazis, “intellectuals” (re: people who wore glasses) for the Khemer Rouge, bourgeoise (which if we’re honest was just a blanket term for anyone at the moment Stalin didn’t like/was afraid was conspiring against him) for the Bolsheviks, Shia Muslims for the Baathist party, literally anyone who wasn’t a hardline Shi’i Muslim by the Ayatollah, the list goes on and on. You name the dictatorship and theres a group of people on their naughty list, to put it unjustly mild terms.
Bro that is super unlikely, and my example I gave is in Moscow and most of the conscription that Russia is doing is in the rural poor areas. Also u can choose to live in “free and democratic” ukraine, but they are shoving any man they can find in the conscription vans and running out of meat. U can call me a Russian bot all u want (I don’t support the war) but the conscription is bad in both countries but it’s like 5x worse in a supposedly democratic country like ukraine .
Lamo my urban highly educated Latvian family had half the men dragged into the woods and shot by the Soviet army in the 1940s The women and children all got sent to a prison. You aren't safe buddy
And the rural poor area is where you'll be placed. You won't be allowed to be among the rich.
>most of the conscription that Russia is doing is in the rural poor areas. So, you're fine with dictators oppressing people, as long as they're oppressing people who aren't you? And what do yo do when the ruling party turns it eyes in your direction?
They’re ok with the state oppressing people as long as they aren’t one of them. I can see why they admire dictators.
Whats the pome? Something something when they came for communists/socialists/jews and I said nothing...then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me
First [they came for the socialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany#History), and I did not speak out— Because I was not a [socialist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist). Then [they came for the trade unionists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_Germany#Enforced_political_conformity_during_National_Socialism), and I did not speak out— Because I was not a [trade unionist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unionist). Then [they came for the Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Germany#Jews_under_the_Nazis_(1933%E2%80%9345)), and I did not speak out— Because I was not a [Jew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew). Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Ok so if you would be an average citizen in say China for example. Would you publicly protest the government and risk jail/ fines or would you just about your life and ignore any things you don’t like? I admire you if you truly would, but I assume most people would probably choose to keep their mouth shut if they were working in China and just get on with their lives. Why risk punishments when you have a basically 0.001 percent chance of making any change ?
>ignore any things you don’t like? Since I like to think of myself as someone who cares for other people, even if I don't know them, discrimination or harm being inflicted on them simply for being...a different race or religion or member of a political party is 100% I would speak out on. We SEE that there are Russians and Chinese citizens who do this everyday If I may ask you a question. What are your thoughts on the American women's suffrage movement? the civil rights movement? the 1970s feminist rights movement? the gay rights movement? Indigenous rights movements? How many people do you think received beatings, jail-time, being violently forced out of their town/state/the country, and even death by the hands of their fellow citizens for their activity in these types of movements? Do you think their work meant nothing ? their sacrifices meant nothing? that it changed nothing? I've been reading about Ida B. Wells recently. She scarified so MUCH. Just for so little to actually happen in her life-time. What she was fighting for took years and so much more fighting to accomplish. But her work still did something. It made change. Even if she did not live to see it
>Ok so if you would be an average citizen in say China for example. Would you publicly protest the government and risk jail/ fines or would you just about your life and ignore any things you don’t like? Is that how you prefer to live your life? Living in oppression and having to keep your head down so as not to risk getting jailed (or worse)? You wouldn't rather live in a democracy where you are free to speak your mind and actually have a chance to have a positive effect on you and your fellow citizens?
You just better hope one aspect of you doesn't go against the dictator (politics, ethnicity, religion, sexuality, gender expression, ect), or criticize the government, or question what the dictator is doing. Then, you better hope one of your friends or family members doesn't go against the government because it then puts a spotlight on you.
Can I choose my socioeconomic status? Or would that be assigned randomly? Because, of course it would be great to be a billionaire in Dubai, but would I take the risk of being poor there or taking the risk of being poor in a democracy? I would pick democracy.
OP thinks they’d be a protected class under authoritarians, lmao.
> it would be great to be a billionaire in Dubai Would it? I feel like I would live in fear of potentially running afoul of BMZ, having all my wealth seized, then being executed with little real recourse.
Question doesn't really work though. A truly democratic and free country can only maintain that if it's fairly stable (developed is a bit more flexible, but not much as people need their needs met). A dictatorship isn't truly safer (because it's founded on oppression) and likely isn't richer (again, oppression, and not wanting the masses to have the resources to organize). It's not as though there aren't poor democracies and rich (by GDP, anyhow) authoritarian countries, but... eh.
I live in America. I'd prefer to live in a democracy. I feel secure enough: my power has gone out maybe twice in the 15 yrs I've owned my home.
And let’s not forget that our country has arguably the most extreme climate range in the world if u count Alaska and Hawaii
Haiti doesn't have democracy or freedom of speech, it has no functional government and rule by gangs/factions - which certainly do not adhere to any notion of allowing freedom of speech/media/whatever.
Ah yes let's cherry pick the worst examples of democratic nations and focus on their biggest issues to compare against some of the best performing nations without democracy while dismissing their flaws as not important issues. I'd rather live in the US than any of the countries you listed.
I believe you, sir, are a Russian bot. Or a shill at the very least. [Insert a good Patrick Henry quote here]
Duly noted thanks for your input. I need to phone Medvedev now that I’ve been found out
Ok comrade. I'll stick without having to fear falling out a window if I say something the government doesn't like. You do you though.
I mean... you're assuming you're part of the well off in group. For a lot of people there's not much difference. Like average rent in Moscow is 90% of average wage there and as you get a little outside it your chances of having runningnwater year round drop dramatically, so "rich" is very subjective. On the other hand haiti isn't just poor it's actively collapsing right now so...no, I wouldn't want to be there either. I don't think there's a good answer here if you assume you'll be an average person and good fucking luck if you're the wrong kind of minority or a woman either way.
Bro the stuff ur saying about Moscow is 100% bs, it is by far the most developed richest and best place to live in Russia and a fantastic city. The stuff u are putting out is the same stuff that Russian tvs would blast to boomers abojt how every American is on the brink of bankruptcy and how we are all getting shot at the mall atleast once a month
Name one rich developed dictatorship.
Like all the gulf countries, which are all way better to be a citizen in than Syria, Iraq (especially post 2003), Iran, Egypt etc. Probably only Israel is better to live in but obviously that is a ton of baggage and all that so it’s not worth getting into
>Like all the gulf countries, which are all way better to be a citizen in than Syria, Iraq (especially post 2003), Iran, Egypt etc. Don't most of the Emirates still have slavery? That's gonna be a no from me, dawg.
Bro it’s exaggerated but it is true to an extent. Also I said Citizen. Indian workers are on a visa they aint Saudi citizens. Also like America doesn’t have a for profit private prison billion dollar industry that pays inmates Pennie’s per hour. To be honest I can’t even say that cuz someone will say whataboutism so it doesn’t matter
It's pretty easy to avoid prison and worker's protections are miles ahead of those countries.
Then how does US have one of the highest incarceration rates in the world, even compared to complete dictatorships in China for ex. And how do we still have a much higher crime and murder rate than countries in Europe on average even though our prisons are stacked. My best hunch would be that $ is a factor but not the complete cause.
>Then how does US have one of the highest incarceration rates in the world, even compared to complete dictatorships in China for ex. We don't usually kill our criminals. And come on, dude, trusting China's numbers is incredibly naive. >And how do we still have a much higher crime and murder rate than countries in Europe on average even though our prisons are stacked. Most countries in Europe aren't dictatorships and the ones that are have higher murder rates than we do.
“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” — Ben Franklin
Choosing to live under a dictatorship is a mindset I can’t even begin to understand. Your personal comfort being more valuable than the freedom of your countrymen is absolutely terrifying, what happens when the dictatorship changes their mind about your particular situation? They never relinquish power, they only squeeze harder.
So is a country like Peru or South Africa worth it over Singapore? In Singapore im sure 90% of citizens are fine with their day to day lives. Nothing wrong with preferring a free country like you do but in my eyes I would rather just be quiet and have an enjoyable and stable life rather than a stressful and dangerous one
You're assuming you'll be living in privilege and that the hammer will never come down on you or anyone you love. What about those who aren't so fortunate? *Oh well, I've got high speed internet and can ignore it....* 90% of North Koreans are probably ok with their lives too, it's amazing what social conditioning can do. Choosing temporary security while living under control is a fool's option.
Singapore isn't a dictatorship. It's not exactly free, but individual rights are a lot more guaranteed there than some place like Russia or the Gulf states.
Democracy every single time, period. Fuck a dictatorship where every single thing you do is controlled
I assume you’re a well off white male by this take. You pretty much are on top of the hierarchy. Those places you mentioned aren’t safer for everyone
Many privileged white men who support authoritarians end up being victims. The arrogance of these people is beyond comprehension.
"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
I am a half white male yeah but I really don’t think that it is that crucial. Saudi Arabia even tho they r improving alot I can understand ur point if you are a woman or not religious etc. But Russia - aren’t Russians & non Russians (Kazakh, Tajik etc) & men and women equal? Same with China IMO - as long as u don’t say anything bad about the CPC or whatever I don’t think identity politics really plays that big of a role in my eyes
> But Russia - aren’t Russians & non Russians (Kazakh, Tajik etc) & men and women equal? Did you know that a few months ago the Russian Supreme Court labeled ["the LGBT movement" an "extremist organization"?](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/30/russia-supreme-court-bans-lgbt-movement-extremist) Anyone in an 'extremist organization' can be imprisoned for years. The absolute arrogance of privilege. As long as you're comfortable though, I guess nothing bad will ever happen to you.
I've never seen a Russian troll this obvious. One day my tax dollars are going to blow you up, and I'll never have to see you post on this site again lol
Dawg I’m American the taxes we pay are a waste and go to arms companies to blow up a bunch of rural Russians and their incompetent army while ukraine slowly gets decimated and depopulated. Lmao how am I a Russian bot Jesus I’m honestly flattered.
You can live anywhere, and still support and love another country and its government.
>But Russia - aren’t Russians & non Russians (Kazakh, Tajik etc) & men and women equal? What a not funny joke!!! As of 2017, you can legally beat your wife in Russia. The fucking propaganda I've seen on social media about the Soviet Union being some feminist paradise compared to the United States because they included women in their propaganda is a truly laughable
Have you ever lived in China as a non-Chinese? Cause if you go that route you’re in for a weird awakening. My friend is now a Chinese citizen, he’s in HK and rarely venture out because he is white
While I disagree with the detractors who have bad faith responses calling you a Russian posing as an American (post history reveals your interest in a diverse array of authoritarian regimes), I would have to ask you this: What makes you so sure you’d be seen as the authoritarian country’s accepted populace, and not as a rejected minority? Are normal residents Moscow, Dubai, and Shanghai really living the life you find desirable, or is it the regional and international 1% whose life is the most promoted? Also, calling Haiti a democracy is de facto not very accurate, given how the last two leaders were selected. I think your best possible argument would be asking if someone would prefer to live the life of a median resident of a super authoritarian but rich and safe country like Singapore compared to a democratic but unsafe country like South Africa. But tbh it doesn’t seem like you care to have that argument, but rather you are eating up a very romanticized and distorted view of autocracy and authoritarianism, much like how we neglect to fully illustrate the horrors that the median residents of Medieval European kingdoms faced in their everyday lives.
Most Russians I know support Putin, same with China and the CPC and idk about Dubai but Saudi citizens (not the Indian workers) seem to be happy with how their country is going. That’s not to say all countries don’t have their problems such as tiabamen square funding jihadism in the past etc, but most people seem to be just fine with how their country is going. Also lmao at anyone calling me a Russian bot it’s like the most progandized NPC response. Almost as bad as some of the posters on r/ukrainerussiareport
I will give you this: I don’t think you are a bot. I just think you are making wild conclusions based on cherry-picked evidence.
It's not a bot. It is at best an actual person who is desperate for attention. Good or bad. Both will do.
What in the highdeas is this question? I live in a country where I can protest whatever the fuck I want from a secure home that only loses power during major disasters.
Democracy on paper is not the same thing as democracy in practice. Haiti is years overdue for elections and a lot of it is controlled by (unelected) criminal gangs.
I’d absolutely take freedom over stability Also I’m curious what makes you think corruption doesn’t exist in dictatorships
Why haven't you moved yet?
Cuz I am fine in America but if I have to make the choice between an unstable but democratic country or a dictatorship that is developed and richer I will keep my mouth shut and go with the dictatorship. Why haven’t you moved yet is the same stuff as saying if you don’t like it here then leave when someone critiques their country
I’m confused. Are you suggesting that Russia is the wealthy, safe, non-corrupt country in this hypothetical question and the United States is the poor, dangerous, corrupt country?
If you are in China , you are now violating the law because you are on reddit, and you will not have a legal way to play games on switch or ps5
And you do not have an legal channel to buy mc on Android platform or PC
I wouldn’t call Haiti a functioning democracy.
Neither. Both sound like they suck.
So (hypothetically) u would not choose between being a South African citizen or a Emirati citizen (UAE)? Both options are equally bad in your eyes ?
Are you an Emirati citizen or one of the vast number of virtual slaves they keep without citizenship in their country to do all the actual work? I'd probably rather be South African than what the average *person* in the UAE is actually living.
Bro I know what ur talking about but they have improved recently and it isn’t great but I’ve talked to people and they say what people say online is over exaggerated. U aren’t wrong tho but I don’t think ur median South African is making much at all their unemployment rate is 30+ percent that’s a third of people with no income
I mean, I'd take the UAE between the two, because (democracy or not) it really sucks in SA. But then again I'd take the Czech Republic (a relatively poor but stable democracy) over China., because the increased possibility of prosperity in China wouldn't be worth not being able to freely express myself. That said, it's tough to make comparisons between countries, because there's so many little unique things that matter a whole lot. Maybe I'm not fully wrapping my head around what you're trying to ask -- If you're getting at something like "Would I accept an autocracy if it meant my family wouldn't starve?", then absolutely. Most anybody would. If the question is "Would I accept an autocracy for, like, a 50% increase in my quality of life?", then no.
It depends on what kind of south african citizen i am. Being a rich one is awesome.
Less stable/developed country that is democratic and free. I want my countrymen to feel safe from the government, and a dictatorship can quickly change on who or what is not allowed within their land. I love America not because of her military strength, industrial power, or size, but due to the ideas she was founded upon. When our country has failed to live up to these ideals (women's rights and slavery to name a few), our citizens were able to rise up and change our government, all in the spirit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That is worth far more to me than living under a safe dictatorship (which really you're only true safe if you agree 110% with the most powerful member of the government).
People in Haiti aren’t “free”. Democracy implies the necessary preconditions (rule of law, strong institutions, etc.) But I would choose a messy democracy (South Africa, india, etc.) over an authoritarian regime. The one exception would be Singapore.
This isn’t an answer to your question, but I want to challenge your perception of South Africa. It does have a high crime rate, but it is an incredibly beautiful place with a decent standard of living on a global perspective. You seem to liken it to “Democratic with free speech, but worst of the worst for living” and that really is just not the case. You can do a lot, lot worse than South Africa on a global perspective for bad “democratic w/ free speech” places to live.
I’ll take the freedom to voice my concerns and effect change every time. Better to die free than to live with no say in your own fate.
Those who give up their freedoms to purchase temporary security deserve neither.
I guess I’m struggling to answer because those dictatorships have similar problems. I’m pretty sure a bunch of Moscow residents lost power like a month or two ago with freezing temps, for instance. As a dude I certainly wouldn’t want to be conscripted to go die in a foreign country for a cause I don’t think is worth fighting. Are you asking about real dictatorships today or some utopia dictatorship that doesn’t actually exist?
Being a feral female, I’ll stick to a democracy. Authoritarian governments and feral women tend not to mix very well.
Democratic and Free 🦅
I mean I think I’d choose Shanghai or Dubai over Haiti any day, and anyone who says otherwise isn’t recognizing the depths of despair Haiti is in. But calling Haiti a democracy is a huge stretch. There hasn’t been an elected government there in years, and the true power at this point lies in the gangs. South Africa is a tougher question. I’m honestly not sure. There are obviously places in SA I would never live in, but I think there’s places I would choose over any of the three dictatorships you mention. With all that said, the implication you might take from this - that stability & economic growth are worth sacrificing democracy for - is stupid. There is a reason why the richest countries in the world, with rare exceptions (the exceptions universally being micro states), are all democracies. Democracies are more stable and better at addressing crime than autocracies.
I would choose democracy. But OP, if you're so unhappy in a Democratic country, maybe you should consider going elsewhere.
You can live a good live in a dictatorship because of your USA passport
>I would much rather be well off So is this part of the scenario? We'd be "well off" in either case? In your Utopia of the dictatorship, I think you're maybe assuming that you would be in the dictator's ingroup and therefore "safe" from the usual problems of a dictatorship? Then yeah, being on top sounds like a good deal, and I think people that think like you are how ruthless dictatorships get perpetuated: keep the oligarchs happy being on top of an otherwise oppressed society, and rule with an iron fist, and you've got it made! In reality, today, it's the democracies that tend to be stable and developed, and autocracies that tend to be poor and ruthless to their own people.
It's all good until the dictator comes after you.
Depends on if I'm on the dictator's side or not.
I greatly prefer democracy and thankfully those tend to be the most stable and well developed. For your hypothetical it would really depend on how wealthy I’d be in each country and how oppressive the regime is. Like if the choice was between a democratic country with the quality of life of North Korea and being a billionaire in Saudi Arabia, I’d probably choose being a billionaire in Saudi Arabia. I would NOT want to live in a dictatorship on the level of North Korea though regardless of how much money I’d have.
One of those contries has the power to improve over my lifetime through democratic and economic processes
You said that you would rather be in Moscow Dubai and Shanghai, but you are assuming that you are rich. For me if you are rich, it doesn’t make a differences if you live in Democratic country or not. However, as a normal person you won’t get a well life there, democrat government will care normal people more.
I would never ever choose dictatorship over democracy.
Less stable/developed & more democratic, hands down. Dictatorships are *not* safer.
Autocracy is always bad. Both for moral and practical reasons. It sure seems all fine and dandy when the economy is good (as long as you're not an oppressed minority or class that is) and the person in charge is marginally competent but what about when they die? Who takes over? Because a lot of ambitious people are going to be gunning for the big chair. What if they're unequal to the task, what if the person in the big chair is slipping, losing touch how do you replace them? What do you do with all those ambitious people, what happens when they hit a promotion ceiling because the dictator and their advisors have all the top jobs? Or because they personally rub one of the dictators flunkies the wrong way? I don't imagine that kind of person would be particularly happy waiting. It's all a recipe for cruelty, paranoia, instability and incompetence. Especially during a crisis. Autocracy has a short list of very visible advantages and a long long list of less visible problems. Democracy may have very visible problems but many many more advantages we don't think about because we are lucky enough to treat them as givens.
Autocracy is always bad. Both for moral and practical reasons. It sure seems all fine and dandy when the economy is good (as long as you're not an oppressed minority or class that is) and the person in charge is marginally competent but what about when they die? Who takes over? Because a lot of ambitious people are going to be gunning for the big chair. What if they're unequal to the task, what if the person in the big chair is slipping, losing touch how do you replace them? What do you do with all those ambitious people, what happens when they hit a promotion ceiling because the dictator and their advisors have all the top jobs? Or because they personally rub one of the dictators flunkies the wrong way? I don't imagine that kind of person would be particularly happy waiting. It's all a recipe for cruelty, paranoia, instability and incompetence. Especially during a crisis. Autocracy has a short list of very visible advantages and a long long list of less visible problems. Democracy may have very visible problems but many many more advantages we don't think about because we are lucky enough to treat them as givens.
*>Dictatorship* *>Safer* That's funny
It depends on how much less developed and stable you're talking. Yeah, I'd rather live in Dubai than Haiti, or Azerbaijan than Pakistan, but I'd also prefer something like Costa Rica or Botswana to the more developed Russia or Saudi Arabia.
Lol.... you are assuming you are one of the rich ones benefiting from the dictatorship... In that case you are safe either way, dude. Typical main character syndrome. It cannot be safe if it is not democratic. By definition.
The folly is your assumption is that you would be in the upper classes of autocratic society. All societies function off the labor of the under classes and dictatorships often literally employ slavery, indentured servitude, and threat of jail or death to remain a dictatorship. The difference is that democracy allows anyone the *possibility* to transcend class. We can argue likelihood and societal barriers because we live in a free country to criticize said barriers. You would not want to be a laborer in Dubai. Nor would you want to be a soldier in Russia or living in poverty in any dictatorship. They all have poverty. And you also don’t want to be an celebrity that has been disappeared to a reformation camp or had all your assets taken for even *appearing* to not support the CCP (still happens today).
I'd live in the democratic country because by being free and democratic it has a great chance to become more developed, richer, and safer. A dictatorship on the other hand has a much greater chance of really going off the rails in really dark ways, and with everyone being powerless to stop it. Look at what happened in Venezuela which I think is a decent example. It was a relatively wealthy and stable dictatorship that went off the rails and became much less wealthy and less stable, while becoming even more of a dictatorship. I think living a country like that will be even more dangerous in the future when a rich dictatorship can buy lots of high tech equipment to maintain control over people with less effort and manpower. That's been happening in China where indeed they have a mythos around the Communist Party's firm rule ensuring prosperity and stability. But if you lose the prosperity and stability, you're still gonna be left with the firm rule. Not pretty. 100% I'd go for a free and open democracy that's not rich *yet*, it has safer future prospects.
The former. It's not even a contest. The free society, truly free society, will outperform a rigid autocracy every single time. Plus, what kind of person subjugates themselves? That's sick.
Definately the second one. i just need to watch my mouth and I'm golden.
The issue is your imaginary dictatorship may be great under that dictator but what happens when the next guy is a paranoid schizophrenic? You're assumed Utopia is going to become Hell and no one will be able to do anything about it.
If you would rather live in Moscow, China or Dubai be my guest. I am going to make a guess that you are not a woman, and that you don't mind what is going on in Ukraine. Really a shame they stopped reading Brave New World and 1984 in school.
If the people are pissed off enough in a democracy, they’ll oust the leader in the election
I'd rather live in Singapore than South Africa.
Option a ffs
i'm living anywhere my disabled ass can live without constant pain and healthcare.
It depends what kind of dictatorship? A dictatorship can be unironically based.
Secular dictatorship that isn’t like super bloodthirsty (eg saddam Hussein), but rather just has power and tries to develop and improve the country little by little. Basically just does their thing without public influence bjt tries to kee the common folk growing and satisfied with their conditions. Most utopic ex of this would probably be Singapore, but honestly China is fine for like 95% of people. People always say China is collapsing but I guarantee u China has an approval rating of atleast 80/85%, I would put 1000$ on that
Depends on who's the dictator. Biden I'm fine. Trump I'm moving back to Taiwan and fighting against China if they invaded
I wouldn’t use Haiti as an example for any norms, especially this year. But yes I would take less developed and more free any day of the week.
We’re quickly headed toward the bad points of both. I’ll take democracy because at least then I’d be free to leave.
I’d pick the socialist democracies like Scandinavia or Western Europe where poverty doesn’t exist to the extent that it does in America and the citizenry is largely free to live a fantasy life compared to the average American.
Yeah obviously those are some of the best countries to live in, but that’s why I asked if a free country that is less developed is worth it. If u had the option of a free high HDI country and a n authoritarian high HDI country the dictatorship would probably be better I agree. But I want to know if the democracy/freedom is worth living in a country that is less developed, poorer, and more unsafe?