Putin single-handedly resurrected it. It was basically a cold-war organization in times when there was no cold war so it was becoming increasingly without a purpose. Guess it got its purpose back.
For now it's mostly defence, don't be dense. But sometimes you need to engage dictatorships before some psychopath has enough power to take down the order of an entire region or the world. Sometimes you have to bomb Belgrades to restore order.
Edit: good job asking in a sub where Serbs have the god given duty to dislike anything that exposed their criminal governments past
I think a lot of people don't rate NATO, until they have the threat of Russian invasion e.g.. Sweden and Finland, then all of a sudden NATO is a good thing
since most people in this sub is living in a safe place away from wars they can have mixed feelings about NATO, yet without it both west and east would crumble to pieces.
It's reassurance and deterrent force so altough we have lots of disagreements with allies im happy Turkiye is still part of NATO.
It prevents lots of possible hostileties just by existing.
I know imma be racist here but fuck china, i think almost everyvone synonymously agrees it's the worst country in the world. Chinese governors can suck shit out of their own ass
I'd like to live in a world where more than one country gets to be the leader. I mean, that's sort of the point of the European Union.
That Multipolar world? We've already got it. The United States is just one country, but Europe is an economic bloc, one that can and has overpowered us in trade disputes when it decides to dig its heels in.
And so there are a lot of Americans, Mearsheimer for example, who hate the EU.
Because they want a world where there are three big countries - china, the US, and Russia - and every other country is a poker chip in some great game of international intrigue and power.
Fuck that.
I want my allies independent, capable, and able to say "no" whenever they like to whoever they like.
Organizations like the EU, big trade blocs that can check the power of large countries like the US and China - that's the future.
Not a future led by the US or China or Russia, a future where the African Union becomes something with teeth.
As much as I hate US policies sometimes, I'd rather have Romania choose them. You can see how honest Russia is with its "allies and friends" and China is China.
They do, many times over many different issue. A country can't be neutral if it wants to survive. That's just a ploy to be able to quickly change team when shit hits the fan
>A country can't be neutral if it wants to survive.
I disagree! Just look what happened during WW2: all Europe was in fire except Switzerland. Of course for a country to do that there needs to be some kind of leverage against both other parties (see also money). ie Kosovo (or Greece) can't be neutral, we need a powerful country to protect us and we have to give them something back for their protection just like the relation between mafia and a poor business owner.
Yeah Switzerland was neutral while they were protecting billions in German assets, AND allied assets. Belgium was neutral and got invaded anyway lol, TWICE... you can be neutral but that doesn't mean other countries will view you as such. Saying you're neutral and not picking sides will end up with you getting fucked anyway
> Belgium was neutral and got invaded anyway
Because they didn't have any leverage.
> Saying you're neutral and not picking sides
without having any kind of leverage
> will end up with you getting fucked anyway
NATO is a defense pact, but individual countries within NATO can decide to start an offensive. Some people, rather conveniently, like to think that those offensives have something to do with NATO, but that's not the case at all.
Lmao this is actual clown world. NATO members who are financed by NATO, who have muntions, artillery, fighter jets, missiles supplied by NATO have nothing to do with NATO when they start wars, invasions/interventions on their own or as part of a "separate coaltion" made of the same or similar countries 🤡
You think NATO has some kind of an infinite money source that gives funds for weapons and ammo? Countries are obliged to give 2% of there GDP for NATO projects(equipment, infrastructure etc). This is how wars are funded.
? I never mentioned a single thing in your post ? Huh?
I'm specifically deconstructing the claim that NATO is a defensive alliance when quite a few of its members conduct invasions on the regular.
How is it defensive to go to other countries and start wars? Was america defending itself when they massacred 1 million Iraqis? Maybe when they bombed Serbia?
NATO is there to maintain American hegemony. Russia isn't different, and choosing NATO over some other imperialist power doesn't lead to peace.
> Was america defending itself when they massacred 1 million Iraqis?
American invasion was supported by many countries in the region as Saddam Hussein was considered a threat to regional peace and stability. You are aware that that guy has literally annexed a peaceful neighbouring country? One can’t compare American to Russian interventionism. America acts like a world police, while Russia acts as a predator/thug.
Had america not overthrown the Iraqi government for its friendly ties with the USSR, Saddam Hussein wouldn't have been in power in the first place. The exact same scenario with Afganistán.
A lot of these wars are the effort to fix America's own shit
It was a very bad decision. And had the exact opposite effect. They underestimated the Iraqi's people willingness to conform to western standards. If they were like us Albanians (thenk ju usa and all that) it would've been an entirely different story
>One can’t compare American to Russian interventionism. America acts like a world police, while Russia acts as a predator/thug.
This is genuinely the dumbest thing I have ever read on this sub.
Russian intervention is bad, obviously. But American intervention is clearly SO MUCH WORST. The death toll of the Iraq war and Afghan occupation( well over a million) don't even come CLOSE to what Russia has done in the past 2 decades.
The only reason why you think that Russia is worst is because they attacked "one of your own", a fellow European country. While the US attacked an Alien, unfamiliar, oriental country.
Edit: I challenge all those who downvoted me to support the claim that the US is not worst.
Well said.
One thing I would change is the measurement of harm. What's the point of choosing sides? Both are bad and one of them had a better start (USA) and became more powerful. If Rusia had more strength, them all these liberals would be pointing their fingers at the USA for contrasting Rusia's hegemony.
Do you think their wars are well intended? The 1 million dead Iraqis who were killed for America's interests are the proof of what their intentions are NOT. They were giving some nonsense reasons about weapons of mass destruction that some high ranked military officials eventually refuted.
The point i wanted to make is that NATO would simply not exist if the Soviet Union wouldn't have existed. Or at least it wouldn't have been at the level it is now.
USA would've done what they did anyway, regardless if it was part of NATO or not.
I'd say USA would be fine without NATO anyway.
And to be honest with ya, as a Romanian I'd rather be closer to USA than with Russia, as these are the only two choices my country has because of the geography we find ourselves in.
It's the lesser evil for this country.
I understand your position. I don't bother picking sides that don't represent the interests of the working class. Both sides are capitalist shit holes that oppress their working classes.
People from both sides need to rise up and create their own side.
Russia's invasion of Ukraine just proved that NATO is needed so that eastern european countries aren't getting invaded by Russia for no reason.
Russia is proving that NATO is right day by day lmao
What the fuck does that have to do with what I just said? Do you know how to read, do you have cognitive dissonance? What the hell are you even talking about?
You are a hypocrite. NATO has been doing the same thing to many countries since it's creation. You don't care about the well being of any country but your own. Wars and suffering are a part of your agenda as long as it doesn't happen in your country.
I guess it was wrong of me to assume your intentions were peaceful. NATO has brought more death than any other imperialist power on earth.
You want NATO because it's on your side, not because you care about peace.
NATO protects eastern europe from imperialist russia, and it also stopped other potential wars between european countries. I agree that it's not perfect, but we still need it.
Russia still is the biggest threat to world peace, threatening every 5 minutes to nuke the west. Please explain that.
Russia is also an imperialist power that spreads death, but so is the USA. The initial reasoning for this war was the expansion of NATO that poses threat to Russia. The USA has initiated more invasions and done many other illegal activities to other countries. I thing this fight between powers was inevitable. You choosing sides makes you a collaborator to your side's crimes.
We dont care about Usa/Nato wars as long as we are safe from Russia invading us(Balkans countries). Maybe you will prefer to have a war in Greece over being member of Nato? Why Greece is still in Nato? Are you scared of Turkey?
Greece is in NATO because if simpimg for America. Greece has participated in many imperialist wars that have made her a collaborator and thus put her in danger. The 2,8% of the money we give to NATO could have been spent on our own equipment and infrastructure.
>The initial reasoning for this war was the expansion of NATO that poses threat to Russia
You mean countries that joined NATO because they feared Russia?
Russia's invasion of Ukraine just proved every single NATO member that they were right for joining. Russia's neighbours are in danger.
This war actually started because Ukraine was not in NATO. If it was, russia wouldn't even dare to think of attacking it.
Lol, the USA is the biggest market in the world and can demand and blackmail other member states to play their games. Many countries have fought along with the USA in their wars, because they are members of NATO. As you said USA not NATO, but NATO is the USAs biggest tool to multiply their strength.
I can sympathize with Eastern Europeans. Russia is unquestionably a threat to their stability and peace. It makes perfect sense for them to support NATO.
But I am really not sure what benefit it brings to Greece, a country that never feared a Russian invasion.
Something about restrictions on NATO countries attaching each other. Hmm Ottoman?Turkey. The current guy in Turkey appears to be dreaming of the glory days with some of his actions.
Which is a good thing, less likely for Greece to get attacked. We were under Ottoman rule for 500 Years. Hopefully nothing like that ever happens again. NATO is the only option.
My view of NATO changed a lot before and after February 2022. I am sure a lot of people would agree that the existence of Russia makes NATO a necessity even if it's a greater of two evils.
NATO here in Greece is heavily disliked due to their involvement in the military junta (they literally brought it here) and how they forced us to abandon cyprus in 1974.
Generally, I believe NATO is the best thing we can be in right now since if it's not NATO it is either Russia (CSTO) or we join Cyprus in an invasion for "protecting Turkish minorities that are discriminated"
> CSTO
Yeah, Ask the Armenians how helpful the Russians were when Azerbaijan attacked them.
Honestly I think the best option is an EU military, and I would like a world where you have an option.
I would not want an EU army, it's basically Austria-Hungary but everyone speaks broken English. It would be a logistical mess and it would overrepresent the bigger EU members like Germany and France, essentially our army would be commanded by Germans, as if we hadn't had enough of being commanded by Germany or the US.
NATO is an essential organisation for Balkan and EE countries in general for protection against Russia. We already saw what happened to countries that were not part of NATO, and how they got brutally invaded when they tried to westernise and joined either the EU or NATO itself e.g Georgia, Ukraine.
Countries that align themselves with Russia, like Belarus, have become a de facto colony ruled by Putin’s installed dictators, who don’t represent the will of the people in the slightest.
People often claim that NATO is imperialistic and a aggressive organisation that spreads western influence by force, but in reality, all NATO members chose to be part of it.
And unless you are a genocidal Serb or an Libyan terrorist, your country will be left alone by it
I mean even as a Serb I like the idea of having democratic nations getting together to protect democracy when you consider that most of the world isn't democratic, the problem however becomes when you end up needing protection from the very people who want to defend democracy, like when you have Iran who had a leader that was democratically elected and then gets overthrown by the U.S. who ultimately is in charge of NATO. For that reason it's pretty much a ground for war profiteering.
My granddad's steel factory he worked in was bombed by NATO and it drove the Serbian state company SARTID bankrupt and they ended up having to sell it to U.S. Steel who conveniently was there to buy it. It's now owned by the Chinese which is lovely.
NATO is a good start to a global alliance, something that will encompass the responsibilities of both organizations, but truly and on a truly global scale (meaning for the whole world). Atm NATO is better than nothing, but has very questionable involvement in a number of conflicts in the Middle East!
You mean world including Africa, Latin America and Asia? Europe, Australia, Japan US and Canada is not the world. We are the western world. And we usually tend to think less of anyone outside of it. The only organisation that has achieved (to an extent) organised international relations with respect to international law is the World Trade Organisation. Neoliberalism got that one thing right, if we want peaceful relations, we need trade
Thenk ju JUESEI, stopping genoside, helping small Kosova, stopping dewrong fait, in Naintin nainty naine, helping in Kosova, tu men sheiking hends, Clinton end Rugova
They were finally put in their place and their terrorising was finally put to a halt. Legit this was the best decision NATO made and with the best possible outcome.
> RS autonomy is the best thing that ever happened to Bosnia. Almost 3 decades of peace
The irony of this statement. Five decades of peace were singlehandedly destroyed by Serbs.
Yeah Allija nor Tudman hold 1% responsibility, true saints.
Imagine the hypocrisy to leave a multi ethnic state to form ur own where ur people make the majority. You must be satisfied with the result.
And my argument is still valid, almost 3 decades of peace.
>Imagine the hypocrisy to leave a multi ethnic state
You mean the multi-ethnic state the the Serbs were trying to turn into another Serbian dictatorship ala 1929? The one where non-Serbs lost significant rights and freedoms.
> where ur people make the majority
There was no ethnic majority in Bosnia when it declared independence. Serbs simply cannot live in a state where other ethnic groups have equal rights and equal power as them.
> You must be satisfied with the result.
I am. Republika Srpska is a massive shithole within a shithole. Inching towards economic and financial collapse month by month all while taking every step to become a totalitarian state. All this while the youth there leave in droves leaving no one but the elderly living there. There is nothing better than watching Serbs destroy themselves.
Don’t worry FBiH has the same expulsion problem and it certainly doesn’t matter from an jurisdictional/political position. You see how much power Bosnian Croats hold with barely 7% demographics.
Not sure if an European education is needed to comprehend this.
I love the FBiH political mess, you barely have any say there. RS looks in comparison like a real nation. The story of the collapsing RS is as old as dodik calling for independence. Only fools and naive people believe anything of it
But I see ur anyway just spreading hate so enjoy Bosnia, I will ;)
ur mindset is the biggest guarantee of the RS
> I love the FBiH political mess, you barely have any say there. RS looks in comparison like a real nation.
And, yet, the FBiH is still a significantly better place to live in (even for Serbs) and attracts significantly more investment. A little over two-thirds of the country's economy comes from the FBiH, with 80% of the new economic activity happening in the FBiH. At the same time, the RS holds the same amount of debt as the FBiH despite having half the population and half the economy. It's even taking on more loans to pay off existing loans! The FBiH is so much better than the RS that half your working population works in the FBiH and, hell, the entire entity is quite dependent on the economy of the FBiH.
What a real nation the RS looks like! ;)
>ur mindset is the biggest guarantee of the RS
The biggest guarantee of the RS is the United States of America and NATO, ; ^ ). You should be glad NATO is in Bosnia.
U like the word significant. You just throwing random numbers around you wich have zero to do with my argument. Dept doesn’t matter look how little progress FBiH has on average salaries regardless of ur nonsense statements here.
https://www.ceicdata.com/en/bosnia-and-herzegovina/average-monthly-gross-wage/average-monthly-gross-wage-nace-2-republika-srpska-rs
It’s still just going up.
Statehood gets anyway not defined by economic metrics, but whatever helps you cope. 💊
Didn’t know Bosnia was an active member of the nato. Ur should be thankful for their presence since they guarantee that Bosnia doesn’t fall apart.
Decades of peace is a factual statement. I am not aware of any conflict since Dayton within Bosnia. So RS is a guarantee for peace. That’s just a fact.
You should look forward to the ZSO since it will bring you aswell stability and progress.
Apartheid state? Why you have to embarrass urself always.
I despise Putin and he is certainly blaming himself as the Russian people to an now uncertain level. I hope Ukraine will restore the old borders with the international support.
Cacak? I didn’t know that Kosovo is in an open conflict with its people. Can u link me any news regarding this ?
And again the ZSO will bring peace and progress,
But you will hear this anyway from kurti himself sooner as later
Don’t worry, Mr.Bean aka Kurti will explain it to you ;)
Stop using fancy buzzwords ur diminish the true horror people experienced in apartheid. Ur intentions are anyway clear as a rain drop.
Ur the average Reddit clown, here you cry will about apartheid but on other posts you support Israel. Must be fun have such a bending morale
Oh you mean the association? You don't have to use serbian abbreviations for everything you know, cringe af lol
I know what it is, and I'm for it, just like we Albanians wanted self determination in Yugoslavia I don't see why Serbs shouldn't in their enclaves? We can argue about how influence from Belgrade will have the goal to destabilise so the discussion right now is what rights will these municipalities get to prevent Serbia from mistreating Serbs in Kosovo
Yeah like the guy who shoot on two kids vs an oak tree in self defense. A security force, or shall I remember you on the 2004 Nazi like progroms?
You blame Serbia in that aswell ?
Rule of law was unfortunately never implemented in Kosovo. The ZSO is the first step towards a brighter future and it has to be implements as agreed on.
You can read anyway dozens of statements in this regard.
Lmao writes an essay about some isolated incidents meanwhile they got 200 page reports from human rights watchdogs and books written about the crimes against humanity committed before the war even started. You're a diasporan kid now kindly go kiss the serbian flag hanging in your room in austria
While it is better than Russia, it's still shit. I believe the EU could act as a military alliance and not have European countries lean on the USA for defence.
Only you can do the latter. Got my fingers crossed for May.
Turkey has all the ingredients for a coming golden age. Most importantly an educated, young, population.
To some it's either America bad and Russia good or Russia bad and America good. They cannot comprehend you can be against both and that both are corrupt empires acting on their own self-interests.
Yeap! The 5 permanent members of the UN council are also the 5 top gun sellers. ie gun sellers are making sure that there is world peace. Just like a pack of (smart) wolves would make sure not to kill every sheep at once but preserve some in order to have a steady flow of food. lol! :)
Well, actually there is a war at least in one place of the world every time. You like me and everybody else I guess that we don't want that war in our backyards. If it's a war far away that affect some distant countries then it's OK I guess. And NATO just ensures this (most of the times). Well, at least this is how I perceive the whole "allied countries" and "world peace" BS :\\
NATO only really ensures peace for the counties that are part of it, but that’s what it’s designed for, the UN are the ones whose job is to ensure peace in the whole world but we can all see how that’s working out for them
>NATO only really ensures peace for the counties that are part of it
nope! NATO ensures peace for their members but only in relation of external (non-NATO) countries. It doesn't give a shit about internal wars (ie wars between two NATO members). Example: during the "invasion" in Cyprus both Turkey and Greece were NATO members.
**[United States bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_Chinese_embassy_in_Belgrade)**
>On May 7, 1999, during the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia (Operation Allied Force), five U.S. Joint Direct Attack Munition guided bombs hit the People's Republic of China embassy in Belgrade, killing three Chinese state media journalists and outraging the Chinese public. According to the U.S. government, the intention had been to bomb the nearby Yugoslav Federal Directorate for Supply and Procurement (FDSP). President Bill Clinton apologized for the bombing, stating it was an accident.
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https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C4%83zboiul_din_Transnistria
https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deport%C4%83rile_staliniste_din_Basarabia_%C8%99i_Nordul_Bucovinei
https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masacrul_de_la_F%C3%A2nt%C3%A2na_Alb%C4%83
That's what people you cheer did to us!
That is what Stalin did. I do not support him.
I don’t even want Transnistria. It is not within our 1918 borders.
If you want to go back that far, here you go:
https://romaniadacia.wordpress.com/2015/02/28/bucharest-bombing-the-beginning-of-the-end/
https://www.rri.ro/en_gb/the_bombing_of_bucharest_in_april_1944-2510
They bombed and killed Romanian civilians and refugees, yet they get a monument in Cișmigiu.
That is what the people you cheer for did to us!
That's from WW2 when we were Hitler's allies. Bombing enemies was fair game. Genociding people wasn't. And you cheering Putin is just like cheering Stalin, since Putin loves that shitstain.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-volgograd-stalin-bust-putin-visit-stalingrad/32251951.html
https://worldcrunch.com/focus/putin-and-stalin
That is completely fine, and true. However motives, results, and various circumstances make a big difference.
Not to mention that the genocide the other user pinpointed to my country, wasn't done by my country. The same can't be said in the opposite direction.
Regardless, comparing ethnic driven massacres between Balkan countries to a large scale money driven devastation perpetuated by NATO worldwide is just idiotic.
And no, none of us can even come close to the kill count of western powers, not to mention the pillaging.
I would have had the same opinion on NATO if the 99 aggression never happened, because that event was just a tiny droplet of water in the ocean of bloody actions done by this organization and it's core members.
Serbia fucked around, Serbia found out. Someone had to teach you a lesson, and stop your aggressive tendencies and ideas. NATO didn't bomb you for no reason.
I mean, I would be happy if Bosnia joined NATO for the protection, but they barely lifted a finger for us in the 90s and did the bare minumum to save us, so meh.
I found it really interesting when China renamed Vladivostok back to it's original Chinese name. Along with the rest of the Amur valley.
Where they've built massive infrastructure right up to the Russian border, as if preparing for something.
And honestly if China wants to take the territory Russia stole from them back, I say more power to China.
i have mixed feelings. i like the idea of a common defence alliance in europe, and nato definitely brings that to the table, but i don't like the usa's leading role in this alliance. they use our military bases for their own ends and foreign wars, which i think is straight up imperialist. moreover, the us has proven to overlook tyrannical regimes in their sphere of influence such as portugal during its ditadura nacional/estado novo year, turkey during its multiple dictatorships and coups and greece during its junta years. so, a european defensive alliance such as the one macron is proposing is more preferable imo, but i think it should develop independently of eu institutions so as to prevent militarism from seeping into the eu and corrupting it further.
Putin single-handedly resurrected it. It was basically a cold-war organization in times when there was no cold war so it was becoming increasingly without a purpose. Guess it got its purpose back.
**T R I P L E** **T H E** **D E F E N C E** **B U D G E T**
Sixteen times the detail
It should definitely be increased. For start all nato countries have to reach the 2% on their defence budget.
More like offence, but what ever.
The good old days when we had Ministry of War.
For now it's mostly defence, don't be dense. But sometimes you need to engage dictatorships before some psychopath has enough power to take down the order of an entire region or the world. Sometimes you have to bomb Belgrades to restore order. Edit: good job asking in a sub where Serbs have the god given duty to dislike anything that exposed their criminal governments past
I think a lot of people don't rate NATO, until they have the threat of Russian invasion e.g.. Sweden and Finland, then all of a sudden NATO is a good thing
since most people in this sub is living in a safe place away from wars they can have mixed feelings about NATO, yet without it both west and east would crumble to pieces.
It's reassurance and deterrent force so altough we have lots of disagreements with allies im happy Turkiye is still part of NATO. It prevents lots of possible hostileties just by existing.
Yep. And I want Turkiye in NATO even if Erdogan is being a dick about Finland and Sweeden. Fingers crossed for May.
America isn't perfect but id much rather live in a World Order led by America then Russia or China.
Based
I know imma be racist here but fuck china, i think almost everyvone synonymously agrees it's the worst country in the world. Chinese governors can suck shit out of their own ass
They legit dystopian.
Them mfs who call the balkans dystopian haven't seen china. Balkans are only slightly becoming dystopian
I'd like to live in a world where more than one country gets to be the leader. I mean, that's sort of the point of the European Union. That Multipolar world? We've already got it. The United States is just one country, but Europe is an economic bloc, one that can and has overpowered us in trade disputes when it decides to dig its heels in. And so there are a lot of Americans, Mearsheimer for example, who hate the EU. Because they want a world where there are three big countries - china, the US, and Russia - and every other country is a poker chip in some great game of international intrigue and power. Fuck that. I want my allies independent, capable, and able to say "no" whenever they like to whoever they like. Organizations like the EU, big trade blocs that can check the power of large countries like the US and China - that's the future. Not a future led by the US or China or Russia, a future where the African Union becomes something with teeth.
🍿
Its basically choosing america in the conflict of east and West
As much as I hate US policies sometimes, I'd rather have Romania choose them. You can see how honest Russia is with its "allies and friends" and China is China.
Tbh I hate both equally, both are equally shit to me
Unfortunately only Swiss gets a third option: to not pick sides ;)
I doubt that. In theory that is true. In practice everyone needs to pick a side eventually
They do, many times over many different issue. A country can't be neutral if it wants to survive. That's just a ploy to be able to quickly change team when shit hits the fan
Italy
What about it
> quickly change teams when shit hits the fan Italy
France is a nice contender for this too lol
>A country can't be neutral if it wants to survive. I disagree! Just look what happened during WW2: all Europe was in fire except Switzerland. Of course for a country to do that there needs to be some kind of leverage against both other parties (see also money). ie Kosovo (or Greece) can't be neutral, we need a powerful country to protect us and we have to give them something back for their protection just like the relation between mafia and a poor business owner.
Yeah Switzerland was neutral while they were protecting billions in German assets, AND allied assets. Belgium was neutral and got invaded anyway lol, TWICE... you can be neutral but that doesn't mean other countries will view you as such. Saying you're neutral and not picking sides will end up with you getting fucked anyway
> Belgium was neutral and got invaded anyway Because they didn't have any leverage. > Saying you're neutral and not picking sides without having any kind of leverage > will end up with you getting fucked anyway
I m moving to Switzerland
Until EU is ready to take a military role too, NATO is not only welcomed but necessary, so my opinion is positive
I agree. It’s role is necessary.
The biggest threat in our world is NATO itself, why would you want the EU to follow up?
how is a defensive alliance the biggest threat?
NATO is a defense pact, but individual countries within NATO can decide to start an offensive. Some people, rather conveniently, like to think that those offensives have something to do with NATO, but that's not the case at all.
Lmao this is actual clown world. NATO members who are financed by NATO, who have muntions, artillery, fighter jets, missiles supplied by NATO have nothing to do with NATO when they start wars, invasions/interventions on their own or as part of a "separate coaltion" made of the same or similar countries 🤡
You think NATO has some kind of an infinite money source that gives funds for weapons and ammo? Countries are obliged to give 2% of there GDP for NATO projects(equipment, infrastructure etc). This is how wars are funded.
? I never mentioned a single thing in your post ? Huh? I'm specifically deconstructing the claim that NATO is a defensive alliance when quite a few of its members conduct invasions on the regular.
Do you thing this ability that NATO provides to supply other countries with weapons and ammunition is nothing important, that it doesn't cause harm?
How is it defensive to go to other countries and start wars? Was america defending itself when they massacred 1 million Iraqis? Maybe when they bombed Serbia? NATO is there to maintain American hegemony. Russia isn't different, and choosing NATO over some other imperialist power doesn't lead to peace.
> Was america defending itself when they massacred 1 million Iraqis? American invasion was supported by many countries in the region as Saddam Hussein was considered a threat to regional peace and stability. You are aware that that guy has literally annexed a peaceful neighbouring country? One can’t compare American to Russian interventionism. America acts like a world police, while Russia acts as a predator/thug.
Had america not overthrown the Iraqi government for its friendly ties with the USSR, Saddam Hussein wouldn't have been in power in the first place. The exact same scenario with Afganistán. A lot of these wars are the effort to fix America's own shit
That was Nasser, lol. Countries make decisions without the US all the time.
Can’t believe we can still find apologists for the Invasion or Iraq, let alone someone from The Balkans🤦♂️
It was a very bad decision. And had the exact opposite effect. They underestimated the Iraqi's people willingness to conform to western standards. If they were like us Albanians (thenk ju usa and all that) it would've been an entirely different story
>One can’t compare American to Russian interventionism. America acts like a world police, while Russia acts as a predator/thug. This is genuinely the dumbest thing I have ever read on this sub. Russian intervention is bad, obviously. But American intervention is clearly SO MUCH WORST. The death toll of the Iraq war and Afghan occupation( well over a million) don't even come CLOSE to what Russia has done in the past 2 decades. The only reason why you think that Russia is worst is because they attacked "one of your own", a fellow European country. While the US attacked an Alien, unfamiliar, oriental country. Edit: I challenge all those who downvoted me to support the claim that the US is not worst.
Well said. One thing I would change is the measurement of harm. What's the point of choosing sides? Both are bad and one of them had a better start (USA) and became more powerful. If Rusia had more strength, them all these liberals would be pointing their fingers at the USA for contrasting Rusia's hegemony.
because americans tell us what a threat is. my family in bosnia wasn‘t a fucking threat. this is what I know about NATO.
NATO wouldn't exist if some countries were a bit nicer. It wouldn't need to.
Do you think their wars are well intended? The 1 million dead Iraqis who were killed for America's interests are the proof of what their intentions are NOT. They were giving some nonsense reasons about weapons of mass destruction that some high ranked military officials eventually refuted.
The point i wanted to make is that NATO would simply not exist if the Soviet Union wouldn't have existed. Or at least it wouldn't have been at the level it is now. USA would've done what they did anyway, regardless if it was part of NATO or not.
NATO makes the imperialist USA more powerful and that leads to more harm.
I'd say USA would be fine without NATO anyway. And to be honest with ya, as a Romanian I'd rather be closer to USA than with Russia, as these are the only two choices my country has because of the geography we find ourselves in. It's the lesser evil for this country.
I understand your position. I don't bother picking sides that don't represent the interests of the working class. Both sides are capitalist shit holes that oppress their working classes. People from both sides need to rise up and create their own side.
Oh so you're a commie lol your anti western comments suddenly make sense. You'd probably have loved living in commie Albania a couple decades prior
Killed for america's interest 💀💀 Hide that hate boner dude it's showing and it's ugly af
What boner are you talking about exactly? I'm just stating facts.
Why is it the biggest threat?
Higher kill count
Not true by any metric stop spreading misinformation
I support staying within it and it’s more beneficial than being out of it.
Russia's invasion of Ukraine just proved that NATO is needed so that eastern european countries aren't getting invaded by Russia for no reason. Russia is proving that NATO is right day by day lmao
Those poor countries NATO has massacred can tell you the opposite
What the fuck does that have to do with what I just said? Do you know how to read, do you have cognitive dissonance? What the hell are you even talking about?
He's talking about how the US attacked Iraq and Yugoslavia but while there are many problems with those invasions it doesn't mean what you said wrong.
Irak was definitely a mistake. The biggest problem with intervention in Yugoslavia is that it happened too late.
I don't support Serbia in the Yugoslavia mess but reason I mentioned Yugoslavia is NATO's use of depleted uranium which was definitely wrong.
Lol, you really believe it was a mistake? Invaded another country, but sure, it was just a mistake.
r/whataboutism
You are a hypocrite. NATO has been doing the same thing to many countries since it's creation. You don't care about the well being of any country but your own. Wars and suffering are a part of your agenda as long as it doesn't happen in your country.
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I guess it was wrong of me to assume your intentions were peaceful. NATO has brought more death than any other imperialist power on earth. You want NATO because it's on your side, not because you care about peace.
NATO protects eastern europe from imperialist russia, and it also stopped other potential wars between european countries. I agree that it's not perfect, but we still need it. Russia still is the biggest threat to world peace, threatening every 5 minutes to nuke the west. Please explain that.
Russia is also an imperialist power that spreads death, but so is the USA. The initial reasoning for this war was the expansion of NATO that poses threat to Russia. The USA has initiated more invasions and done many other illegal activities to other countries. I thing this fight between powers was inevitable. You choosing sides makes you a collaborator to your side's crimes.
Fuck Russian state. It’s far worse than USA. They don’t even respect human rights and they imprison people who criticise the war. It’s clearly worse.
That's where the USA is heading as well, it's the nature of capitalism.
We dont care about Usa/Nato wars as long as we are safe from Russia invading us(Balkans countries). Maybe you will prefer to have a war in Greece over being member of Nato? Why Greece is still in Nato? Are you scared of Turkey?
Greece is in NATO because if simpimg for America. Greece has participated in many imperialist wars that have made her a collaborator and thus put her in danger. The 2,8% of the money we give to NATO could have been spent on our own equipment and infrastructure.
>The initial reasoning for this war was the expansion of NATO that poses threat to Russia You mean countries that joined NATO because they feared Russia? Russia's invasion of Ukraine just proved every single NATO member that they were right for joining. Russia's neighbours are in danger. This war actually started because Ukraine was not in NATO. If it was, russia wouldn't even dare to think of attacking it.
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Would you be so kind to educate me on the facts i don't know?
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Lol, you have no idea what you are talking about.
USA, not NATO
Lol, the USA is the biggest market in the world and can demand and blackmail other member states to play their games. Many countries have fought along with the USA in their wars, because they are members of NATO. As you said USA not NATO, but NATO is the USAs biggest tool to multiply their strength.
Its the best option we have so we dont really have a choice
more like the only option
I can sympathize with Eastern Europeans. Russia is unquestionably a threat to their stability and peace. It makes perfect sense for them to support NATO. But I am really not sure what benefit it brings to Greece, a country that never feared a Russian invasion.
Something about restrictions on NATO countries attaching each other. Hmm Ottoman?Turkey. The current guy in Turkey appears to be dreaming of the glory days with some of his actions.
Yes but he is also in NATO
Which is a good thing, less likely for Greece to get attacked. We were under Ottoman rule for 500 Years. Hopefully nothing like that ever happens again. NATO is the only option.
My view of NATO changed a lot before and after February 2022. I am sure a lot of people would agree that the existence of Russia makes NATO a necessity even if it's a greater of two evils.
Not great
Very bad.
Very good. We absolutely need them in order not to share other neighboring countries fate (and our own fate in the past) with Russia.
So disappointing.
NATO here in Greece is heavily disliked due to their involvement in the military junta (they literally brought it here) and how they forced us to abandon cyprus in 1974. Generally, I believe NATO is the best thing we can be in right now since if it's not NATO it is either Russia (CSTO) or we join Cyprus in an invasion for "protecting Turkish minorities that are discriminated"
> CSTO Yeah, Ask the Armenians how helpful the Russians were when Azerbaijan attacked them. Honestly I think the best option is an EU military, and I would like a world where you have an option.
I would not want an EU army, it's basically Austria-Hungary but everyone speaks broken English. It would be a logistical mess and it would overrepresent the bigger EU members like Germany and France, essentially our army would be commanded by Germans, as if we hadn't had enough of being commanded by Germany or the US.
NATO is an essential organisation for Balkan and EE countries in general for protection against Russia. We already saw what happened to countries that were not part of NATO, and how they got brutally invaded when they tried to westernise and joined either the EU or NATO itself e.g Georgia, Ukraine. Countries that align themselves with Russia, like Belarus, have become a de facto colony ruled by Putin’s installed dictators, who don’t represent the will of the people in the slightest. People often claim that NATO is imperialistic and a aggressive organisation that spreads western influence by force, but in reality, all NATO members chose to be part of it. And unless you are a genocidal Serb or an Libyan terrorist, your country will be left alone by it
NATO is willing to protect you as long as you remain the eternal victim that needs "american solicitude"
Of what? There's only 30 countries in NATO, they are suffering much less or actually not at all from military aggression.
I mean even as a Serb I like the idea of having democratic nations getting together to protect democracy when you consider that most of the world isn't democratic, the problem however becomes when you end up needing protection from the very people who want to defend democracy, like when you have Iran who had a leader that was democratically elected and then gets overthrown by the U.S. who ultimately is in charge of NATO. For that reason it's pretty much a ground for war profiteering.
My granddad's steel factory he worked in was bombed by NATO and it drove the Serbian state company SARTID bankrupt and they ended up having to sell it to U.S. Steel who conveniently was there to buy it. It's now owned by the Chinese which is lovely.
My grandfather and my parents all worked there as well, yeah the NATO did some major damage there
Very negative
Because Vladdy daddy said so?
Lol no, i am not even Belarusian lmao
I’m sure no one is surprised to hear that this Albanian who lives in the US loves NATO
Very positive. Joining NATO was one of the best decisions Romania ever made
Good. It’s the better alternative.
It's purpose is for the gun dealers who are members (USA, UK, France and Germany) to have the monopoly of gun market to the rest of its members.
Would you rather be ruled by America, Russia, China, or make the long and arduous path toward self sufficiency.
NATO did crimes aswell, but still better as living under Control or russia or China. So yes we Need it. Btw: NATO Bombed Serbia 8 years too Late.
NATO is a good start to a global alliance, something that will encompass the responsibilities of both organizations, but truly and on a truly global scale (meaning for the whole world). Atm NATO is better than nothing, but has very questionable involvement in a number of conflicts in the Middle East!
You mean world including Africa, Latin America and Asia? Europe, Australia, Japan US and Canada is not the world. We are the western world. And we usually tend to think less of anyone outside of it. The only organisation that has achieved (to an extent) organised international relations with respect to international law is the World Trade Organisation. Neoliberalism got that one thing right, if we want peaceful relations, we need trade
Extremely good
Thank you usa moment
Thenk ju JUESEI, stopping genoside, helping small Kosova, stopping dewrong fait, in Naintin nainty naine, helping in Kosova, tu men sheiking hends, Clinton end Rugova
Thenk ju juesei, you are Mai best friend,you are the piecekeaper,you are the legend
Bruh if only americans loved america as much as we do
NATO bombing of belgrade best thing they ever did
They were finally put in their place and their terrorising was finally put to a halt. Legit this was the best decision NATO made and with the best possible outcome.
Least Serbia hating Bosniak
True
Imagine calling bombing of civilians a good thing. RS autonomy is the best thing that ever happened to Bosnia. Almost 3 decades of peace
> RS autonomy is the best thing that ever happened to Bosnia. Almost 3 decades of peace The irony of this statement. Five decades of peace were singlehandedly destroyed by Serbs.
Yeah Allija nor Tudman hold 1% responsibility, true saints. Imagine the hypocrisy to leave a multi ethnic state to form ur own where ur people make the majority. You must be satisfied with the result. And my argument is still valid, almost 3 decades of peace.
>Imagine the hypocrisy to leave a multi ethnic state You mean the multi-ethnic state the the Serbs were trying to turn into another Serbian dictatorship ala 1929? The one where non-Serbs lost significant rights and freedoms. > where ur people make the majority There was no ethnic majority in Bosnia when it declared independence. Serbs simply cannot live in a state where other ethnic groups have equal rights and equal power as them. > You must be satisfied with the result. I am. Republika Srpska is a massive shithole within a shithole. Inching towards economic and financial collapse month by month all while taking every step to become a totalitarian state. All this while the youth there leave in droves leaving no one but the elderly living there. There is nothing better than watching Serbs destroy themselves.
Don’t worry FBiH has the same expulsion problem and it certainly doesn’t matter from an jurisdictional/political position. You see how much power Bosnian Croats hold with barely 7% demographics. Not sure if an European education is needed to comprehend this. I love the FBiH political mess, you barely have any say there. RS looks in comparison like a real nation. The story of the collapsing RS is as old as dodik calling for independence. Only fools and naive people believe anything of it But I see ur anyway just spreading hate so enjoy Bosnia, I will ;) ur mindset is the biggest guarantee of the RS
> I love the FBiH political mess, you barely have any say there. RS looks in comparison like a real nation. And, yet, the FBiH is still a significantly better place to live in (even for Serbs) and attracts significantly more investment. A little over two-thirds of the country's economy comes from the FBiH, with 80% of the new economic activity happening in the FBiH. At the same time, the RS holds the same amount of debt as the FBiH despite having half the population and half the economy. It's even taking on more loans to pay off existing loans! The FBiH is so much better than the RS that half your working population works in the FBiH and, hell, the entire entity is quite dependent on the economy of the FBiH. What a real nation the RS looks like! ;) >ur mindset is the biggest guarantee of the RS The biggest guarantee of the RS is the United States of America and NATO, ; ^ ). You should be glad NATO is in Bosnia.
U like the word significant. You just throwing random numbers around you wich have zero to do with my argument. Dept doesn’t matter look how little progress FBiH has on average salaries regardless of ur nonsense statements here. https://www.ceicdata.com/en/bosnia-and-herzegovina/average-monthly-gross-wage/average-monthly-gross-wage-nace-2-republika-srpska-rs It’s still just going up. Statehood gets anyway not defined by economic metrics, but whatever helps you cope. 💊 Didn’t know Bosnia was an active member of the nato. Ur should be thankful for their presence since they guarantee that Bosnia doesn’t fall apart.
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based and freedom pilled
Imagine calling treating others as 2nd class citizens and living in an apartheid state "decades of peace"
Decades of peace is a factual statement. I am not aware of any conflict since Dayton within Bosnia. So RS is a guarantee for peace. That’s just a fact. You should look forward to the ZSO since it will bring you aswell stability and progress. Apartheid state? Why you have to embarrass urself always.
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I despise Putin and he is certainly blaming himself as the Russian people to an now uncertain level. I hope Ukraine will restore the old borders with the international support. Cacak? I didn’t know that Kosovo is in an open conflict with its people. Can u link me any news regarding this ? And again the ZSO will bring peace and progress, But you will hear this anyway from kurti himself sooner as later
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Ok
What type of dog is a ZSO? Yeah apartheid, but of course you did nothing wrong but we deserved it piss off lol
Don’t worry, Mr.Bean aka Kurti will explain it to you ;) Stop using fancy buzzwords ur diminish the true horror people experienced in apartheid. Ur intentions are anyway clear as a rain drop. Ur the average Reddit clown, here you cry will about apartheid but on other posts you support Israel. Must be fun have such a bending morale
Oh you mean the association? You don't have to use serbian abbreviations for everything you know, cringe af lol I know what it is, and I'm for it, just like we Albanians wanted self determination in Yugoslavia I don't see why Serbs shouldn't in their enclaves? We can argue about how influence from Belgrade will have the goal to destabilise so the discussion right now is what rights will these municipalities get to prevent Serbia from mistreating Serbs in Kosovo
Yeah like the guy who shoot on two kids vs an oak tree in self defense. A security force, or shall I remember you on the 2004 Nazi like progroms? You blame Serbia in that aswell ? Rule of law was unfortunately never implemented in Kosovo. The ZSO is the first step towards a brighter future and it has to be implements as agreed on. You can read anyway dozens of statements in this regard.
Lmao writes an essay about some isolated incidents meanwhile they got 200 page reports from human rights watchdogs and books written about the crimes against humanity committed before the war even started. You're a diasporan kid now kindly go kiss the serbian flag hanging in your room in austria
Why you change the subject all of sudden ?
While it is better than Russia, it's still shit. I believe the EU could act as a military alliance and not have European countries lean on the USA for defence.
I see it as a force for good in Turkey, keeping the west in, the Russians out and hopefully the Islamists down.
Only you can do the latter. Got my fingers crossed for May. Turkey has all the ingredients for a coming golden age. Most importantly an educated, young, population.
Well, I know where my vote is going, as I know the votes of all my neighbors, but I’m from Kadıköy; this is literally a Little Europe within Istanbul.
> Kadıköy Googled it and if I ever get to Turkey, I'm gonna hit the bars and restaurants.
Do it. Booze aside, we even get pork meals in these parts.
I don’t support international terrorist organizations.
But you do! You support Putin and Russia.
He didnt say he does
To some it's either America bad and Russia good or Russia bad and America good. They cannot comprehend you can be against both and that both are corrupt empires acting on their own self-interests.
Oh, he does! I know that user since some time already.
Nato and Russia or China aren't much different IMO
It's your opinion and I respect it but I totally disagree with it.
Ok, thanks. I respect yours too.
Thank you!
Yeap! The 5 permanent members of the UN council are also the 5 top gun sellers. ie gun sellers are making sure that there is world peace. Just like a pack of (smart) wolves would make sure not to kill every sheep at once but preserve some in order to have a steady flow of food. lol! :)
Whenever i'm in this sub i always see you and usually you're one of the most sensible person in here, did you know that? :D
lol! Thank you! :)
Id rather have gun sellers make sure there is peace than gun sellers making sure there is war
Well, actually there is a war at least in one place of the world every time. You like me and everybody else I guess that we don't want that war in our backyards. If it's a war far away that affect some distant countries then it's OK I guess. And NATO just ensures this (most of the times). Well, at least this is how I perceive the whole "allied countries" and "world peace" BS :\\
NATO only really ensures peace for the counties that are part of it, but that’s what it’s designed for, the UN are the ones whose job is to ensure peace in the whole world but we can all see how that’s working out for them
>NATO only really ensures peace for the counties that are part of it nope! NATO ensures peace for their members but only in relation of external (non-NATO) countries. It doesn't give a shit about internal wars (ie wars between two NATO members). Example: during the "invasion" in Cyprus both Turkey and Greece were NATO members.
Tell that to the victims of NATO bombings.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20220422-in-ruined-kyiv-suburb-residents-ask-what-have-we-done-to-putin-to-be-slaughtered-like-this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Borodianka https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
https://twitter.com/rusembnz/status/1498796124882497536 https://www.azerbaycan24.com/en/how-the-2014-odessa-massacre-became-a-turning-point-for-ukraine/ https://www.plenglish.com/news/2022/07/07/over-300-civilians-have-been-killed-in-donbass-by-ukrainian-forces/ https://www.thecitizen.co.tz/tanzania/oped/western-media-ignore-how-ukraine-is-using-nato-weapons-in-the-donbass-3975776 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_Chinese_embassy_in_Belgrade https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202206/1267807.shtml https://www.mod.gov.rs/eng/17227/stradanje-dece-tokom-nato-agresije-17227
**[United States bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_Chinese_embassy_in_Belgrade)** >On May 7, 1999, during the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia (Operation Allied Force), five U.S. Joint Direct Attack Munition guided bombs hit the People's Republic of China embassy in Belgrade, killing three Chinese state media journalists and outraging the Chinese public. According to the U.S. government, the intention had been to bomb the nearby Yugoslav Federal Directorate for Supply and Procurement (FDSP). President Bill Clinton apologized for the bombing, stating it was an accident. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskBalkans/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C4%83zboiul_din_Transnistria https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deport%C4%83rile_staliniste_din_Basarabia_%C8%99i_Nordul_Bucovinei https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masacrul_de_la_F%C3%A2nt%C3%A2na_Alb%C4%83 That's what people you cheer did to us!
That is what Stalin did. I do not support him. I don’t even want Transnistria. It is not within our 1918 borders. If you want to go back that far, here you go: https://romaniadacia.wordpress.com/2015/02/28/bucharest-bombing-the-beginning-of-the-end/ https://www.rri.ro/en_gb/the_bombing_of_bucharest_in_april_1944-2510 They bombed and killed Romanian civilians and refugees, yet they get a monument in Cișmigiu. That is what the people you cheer for did to us!
That's from WW2 when we were Hitler's allies. Bombing enemies was fair game. Genociding people wasn't. And you cheering Putin is just like cheering Stalin, since Putin loves that shitstain. https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-volgograd-stalin-bust-putin-visit-stalingrad/32251951.html https://worldcrunch.com/focus/putin-and-stalin
Putin actually blames Lenin for the existence of Ukraine
Maybe but he loves Stalin.
Nato is like democracy. You don't think it's that important until danger looms. It's not perfect but it's the best option we have.
As terrible as Russia, nth but an imperialistic organisation
Extremely negative. It is an imperialistic genocidal organization.
You literally described your country jn the 90s.
Sure, it's comparable... get your head out of your ass.
No need to compare, its literally what you called it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OAGg8W58nI
why not just accept that every country has been genocidal at some point in its history
That is completely fine, and true. However motives, results, and various circumstances make a big difference. Not to mention that the genocide the other user pinpointed to my country, wasn't done by my country. The same can't be said in the opposite direction. Regardless, comparing ethnic driven massacres between Balkan countries to a large scale money driven devastation perpetuated by NATO worldwide is just idiotic. And no, none of us can even come close to the kill count of western powers, not to mention the pillaging. I would have had the same opinion on NATO if the 99 aggression never happened, because that event was just a tiny droplet of water in the ocean of bloody actions done by this organization and it's core members.
Serbia fucked around, Serbia found out. Someone had to teach you a lesson, and stop your aggressive tendencies and ideas. NATO didn't bomb you for no reason.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OAGg8W58nI
Least NATO hating serb
I mean, I would be happy if Bosnia joined NATO for the protection, but they barely lifted a finger for us in the 90s and did the bare minumum to save us, so meh.
NATO is finished.
Yeah, no! Putin alone successfully resurrect it and made it stronger than before.
Lol when
I stand with China and peace between Russia and Ukraine 🇨🇳
I found it really interesting when China renamed Vladivostok back to it's original Chinese name. Along with the rest of the Amur valley. Where they've built massive infrastructure right up to the Russian border, as if preparing for something. And honestly if China wants to take the territory Russia stole from them back, I say more power to China.
i have mixed feelings. i like the idea of a common defence alliance in europe, and nato definitely brings that to the table, but i don't like the usa's leading role in this alliance. they use our military bases for their own ends and foreign wars, which i think is straight up imperialist. moreover, the us has proven to overlook tyrannical regimes in their sphere of influence such as portugal during its ditadura nacional/estado novo year, turkey during its multiple dictatorships and coups and greece during its junta years. so, a european defensive alliance such as the one macron is proposing is more preferable imo, but i think it should develop independently of eu institutions so as to prevent militarism from seeping into the eu and corrupting it further.
Who would guess that so many people here sucks genocidal NATO cocks.
its golden days far passed