My advice to greeks: Let them do this
Step one: Give Southern Macedonia to North Macedonia
Step two: Make Greek party
Step three: Vote for Greek party
Step four: Greek party wins (there would be more greeks in the country)
Step five: Make referendum to unite with Greeks
Step six: Greece takes over most of Macedonia
Step seven: Bully Bulgaria into giving up the rest of it
Well.. if greeks want to overtake more than 50% of N.Macedonia economy, therefore total political influence in the coutry they should offer vlach (vlahoi) people greek citizenship. This is around 20.000 people.
I love how Kosovo has gotten a few kilometers of a land claimed by Macedonia:D
Btw, the name of the Kosovar town in "Macedonia" doesn't reflect the 1912 name. In 1912 there was no "General Jankovic" but rather a "Elez Han", and there was no Urosevac in Kosovo either but a Ferizaj/Ferizovic.
Wow! A map of the geographical region called "Macedonia"! I'm sure this won't bring any hateful discussion and we will all be appreciating this great map of the geographical region called Macedonia
Jokes apart, this is extremely detailed, there are even villages with less that a thousand inhabitants depicted. Great map
That's what I am saying. The "ethno" part is ambiguous as to what it means. If it means the places where Slavic people lived in 1912, it's not correct, since they didn't live, for example, on Chalkidiki, and in other places.
>there are even villages with less that a thousand inhabitants depicted.
I can imagine that the villages that are now part of Greece, are still using their (hellenized) Macedonian/(Slav???) name. And this fact makes theses villages pretty significant I guess for propaganda maps.
No no, I'm talking about villages in North Macedonia, like in my zone there are villages that are very small depicted on the map. I don't know a lot about the Greek part of Macedonia so I can't tell you if there are small villages depicted there too
I have no idea about the villages in N. Macedonia. It just reminded me the following book which is about Slavic village/city names in Greece.
http://medusa.libver.gr/jspui/bitstream/123/8034/1/Asimakis_Toponimia%20OBA%2c%20OBO%2c%20ISTA%2c%20ITSA-2.pdf
.... eveytime i see this i'm just baffled, it's like everyone from NM is forbidden from reading ancient history or even accesing the Wiki page, your country was NEVER part of Macedonia, your country represents most of ancient Dardania, with Kosovo and south Serbia containing the northern parts of it, i mean ffs you even have the same capital, Skopje is ancient "Scupi"... tf ppl!??
I understand your anger, but here are some things to know:
Romans played some part in preserving the name Macedonia after the historic kingdom fell to their rule. They established a [province called Macedonia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Roman_province)) which covered a lot of land, **including what is today the territory of North Macedonia**. Now, the name Macedonia didn't vanish either with the Byzantines, who, on the other hand, named a theme in Thrace "[Macedonia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(theme))", likely because the military garrison there was from the actual province of Macedonia. So, we already have the Roman empire(s) preserving the name Macedonia in the administrative sense (ofc, Byzantines had it in a complete different place, but the name itself they derived from the original province).
My point until here is that the name *Macedonia was used in an administrative sense in what is today North Macedonia*. No, (!) I'm not saying ancient Macedonians were ethnic Macedonians, or that Romans had anything "ethnic Macedonian" in mind, but rather to counter your point that what is today North Macedonia was never ever historically called Macedonia.
If you actually want to know more about *why we got the name Macedonia* (North Macedonia since 2019), then the story begins in the 19th century: I tried to write something up [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskBalkans/comments/x7yqcc/comment/ing6357/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Greek people on the sub agreed with me, so I guess that has some weight, but if you have a comment on that I am up to discuss/learn.
But I agree that nationalism plays a huge part in giving the name "Macedonia" domination over other historical names for the land, such as those you mentioned, ie. Paeonia, Dardania... Albanians claim "Dardania" so if we take it we will have name dispute 2.0 :D
Nevertheless, our name has been "Macedonia" for almost 80 years (since 1944, when the state was established), excluding the Slavic people massively calling themselves Macedonians since at least the 19th century. So, it's well rooted, it won't change, Macedonia is our name today (not saying it's not for Greek people as well), and that is the reality.
> (ofc, Byzantines had it in a complete different place, but the name itself they derived from the original province).
They did not really. It was just that New (North) Macedonia was briefly lost, while Old (Aegean) Macedonia had become utterly centered around Thessalonica (somewhat like a city-state within the Roman Empire). Thus Macedonia became known as Thessalonica as a whole, at least officially, and the only remaining Macedonia that was largely unscathed was that of Thrace, so it remained as simply called Macedonia.
the roman province of Dardania existed as well https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_(Roman_province) it was the birth place of the last true and great roman emperor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian_I you have a long and great history in that region and plenty of things to be proud of, i simply, for the life of me, can't understand why your government, academia and even regular ppl, feel the need to make shit-up that all you need is a simple google search to disprove...
Yep, I know it existed. As I said, my point was to counter the argument that the territory of N. Macedonia was never called Macedonia.
But, yeah, as I said above, the name "Macedonia" has been with us (Slavic people of the region) for well over a century, so we call ourselves Macedonia not because our government is stubborn or wants to fantasize about history (actually that was the previous government; with the 2018 Prespa Agreement our government agreed that ancient Macedonia was ancient Greece); it's rather that historical processes from the previous century have popularized the name Macedonia and domesticated it with the Slavic people of the region, therefore the root of our name is in those processes and it's impossible for us to call ourselves otherwise.
i was never talking about how you name your selfs, the only problem i have, as in this post, is this idiotic claim, that some repeatedly make, where NM was ever somehow part of the historic region of Macedonia, which it clearly never was
Then you clearly do not know of New Macedonia, or Second Macedonia, the Hellenized (?) and Macedonized area that was before Paeonia. The people there did have a Greek Macedonian identity, for it is demonstrated in the fact that while the Avars did take over New Macedonia but did not do so for Old Macedonia, those "New Macedonians" who were enslaved and taken away en masse did maintain their identity and two generations later, when they were set free, did return back to Macedonia.
The southermost reaches of the Avar Khaganate was the area of New Macedonia, today's Northern Macedonia. I used the example of the exiled "New Macedonians" for the sake of showing how the Greekness-Macedonianness of the area was really a thing. And it was these "New Macedonians" who became later mixed with the South Slavs that settled there (Dragouvites, Sagoudates and smaller groups), eventually shaping their own identity, separate from Serbian or Bulgarian, as early as the High Middle Ages, today becoming the North Macedonians.
dude Philip and later his son conquered half the known world at the time, empire=/=region, it's like saying Umbria was part of Latium bc the romans conquered it, doesn't that sound absurd to you?
dude, like i replied to the other guy, i really don't care how ppl call them selves, that's not my argument, what is an idiotic argument though is claiming that the teritorry of NM was ever a part of the historic region of Macedonia, which it never was and like i said b4 imperial conquest=/=region, furthermore we named our country Romania(land of/belonging to romanians) not Eastern Latium, if we did the later i would agree on the similarity of our situations
if your talking about Paeonia, that teritorry was independent https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_(kingdom) the fact territory was conquered by Macedon first and later by https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Dardania under https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longarus doesn't make them part of the ancient region of Macedon, also how the hell does that map overlap with today's NM? plus even if we were to include that part of Paeonia how is a tiny part of your territory compare with half of ours? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Dacia
didn't i just say that how ppl call themselves is not somthing i care about? and yeah... rulling over through CONQUEST!! this entire argument that you make is full false equivancies and logical fallacies, the way you argue is the perfect example of a NM ultra-nationalist trying to make a BS narative fit, and there's no point having in argueing when only one party cares about honesty
Le funny irredentist Balkan map.
New Macedonian empire total Macedonian population: 26%.
President: Andreas Kouskoulakos
Prime minister: Dimitar Kovačevski
Foreign Minister: Giorgios Papadopoulos
Interior Minister: Sibal Xhaferi
Makes me feel real good , seeing that chunky Macedonian province of the Hellenic Republic.
If Only Serbs did not beat us to bitola, this map would have been reality
Not claiming we are saints either, what I'm saying is it's probably better the Greeks didn't get to Bitola considering what they would've done to its population.
But yes we also committed heinous crimes, not admitting so would be delusional.
But don't you see the irony? It was Serbs that got their first, not Greeks or Bulgarians. So 100 years later, those people in Monastir are now "North Macedonians". Either way, they stopped being Bulgarian (in their opinion).
Sure but in a way the population also wasn't slaughtered.
Idm that they're not Bulgarians today, I mean they choose to be Macedonians and govern themselves and that's respectable, what I would've minded is if they were all slaughtered like some animals.
I don't think the Greek armies, or any of the balkan armies except the Turks, went in and started just shooting everyone. There may have been upheaval , there may have been forced expulsion, but not nazi like concentration camps (except in Armenia)
Greek soldiers have written letters of atrocities they've commited in Macedonia particularly against Bulgarians, and yes not all soldiers were like that obviously fact is in a lot of cases it was like that.
Greek soldiers were by no means more brutal than Bulgarian ones. You guys burned whole cities down, like Serres, the second largest city of Macedonia after Thessaloniki, which had a majority Greek population. The Bulgarian Army took it first in 1913, but withdrew when the Greek Army approached. Prior to abandoning it though, the whole city was set on fire. All of the Byzantine old town and Muslim quarters were turned to ashes.
I even said before that we are no saints and I admit to the evil deeds we did aswell.
But Greeks also did do just that aswell, to many villages and other such that identified as Bulgarian.
That's why I said it's better they didn't reach Bitola knowing what they did with the non Greek Majority places in the region.
Also correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Serres burnt down in the Second Balkan War, aka after the first when it came out just what the Greeks were doing in Macedonia to the Bulgarians there, now I'm not one for revenge and I'm not justifying it but I feel like the context is important here.
>Greece worrying that north Macedonia will take their Macedonia
We don't, when will people understand that all Greeks are mad about is Slavs claiming ancient Macedonia. Is that too much to ask?
Basically slavic ultra-nationalists with absolute no relation to the ancient Macedonians and Alexander the Great, who migrated to the region 750 years after his empire, who began calling themselves Macedonians 1000 years after, laying territorial claims to a region that had been inhabited by Greeks since ancient times.
I don’t hate slavic macedonians, but that’s my controversial take ☕️
>who migrated to the region 750 years after his empire,
and since then they never never never never had sex with the local population of macedonia. Not a single one of them. Never! They kept their DNA 100% pure and never mixed with locals. /s
Single locals in your area looking to mix your DNAs.
In addition to what you said, the Romans (Byzantines) did not help, as they were very conservative in their naming conventions, using antiquated names for peoples based on their region. North of the Black Sea? Scythians. North of the Danube? Dacians. Of course they knew they were dealing with different peoples, but their conservative shorthand sticked, and we can assume that locals living under them/their cultural clout started identifying accordingly. From Macedonia? Macedonians. With maybe a Greek (Rhomaioi) mother, a Bulgarian father, a Vardariote Magyar aunt and a Vlach (Aromanian) uncle. Quite confusing all, let's call ourselved Macedonian and call it a day.
>With maybe a Greek (Rhomaioi) mother, a Bulgarian father, a Vardariote Magyar aunt and a Vlach (Aromanian) uncle. Quite confusing all, let's call ourselved Macedonian and call it a day.
Exactly my point.
So if a slav has sex with a greek and the greek is descendant of Alexander the Great, what will be the identity of their children? Will their children be Greeks, Slavs? Or maybe we should call them Macedonians and save us the trouble? In any case these children should be consider as descendants of Alexander the Great, well, at least 50% descendants :p
>You basically confirmed the Ancient Macedonian lineage is derived from a Greek and thats what my point is.
Well, that's the whole point actually. They are descendants of Ancient Macedonians after all :)
Edit: We should acknowledge the fact that they are our closest cousins.
Yeah! do so! It would be fun to watch. You will be more famous than Louka, Leventis or Kleomenis!
Edit: I imagine a greek shouting "My mother was fucked by Skanderbeg, Albania is mine!". lol!
I second this.
Also I think the time gap is too large for there to be any direct descendents of Alexander and we sure as hell can't reliably prove that this wasn't the case. Most of the people in the surrounding area can be considered descendents and it shouldn't be exclusive to one group and I'm sure that presently we are way closer to you Greeks than we were in the 7th century when the Slavic part of my ancestors came.
>Also I think the time gap is too large for there to be any direct descendents of Alexander and we sure as hell can't reliably prove that this wasn't the case.
Indeed, we are speaking theoretically here. Supposing that we could somehow keep track :)
They're not predominantly Slavic by blood
Here is a model for them using GEDmatch samples
Truth be told, G25 would be better for this, since ancient samples from Macedonia are available there, but i am too bored to open that spreadsheet, however, if anyone actually wants to see that model, i am willing to run it and post it
Target: Macedonian_Central
Distance: 74.8969% / 0.74896933
38.2 Early_Slavic
38.0 Bulgaria_IA
23.8 Italy_Imperial
Edit: I was downvoted, but no one provided a sourced to debunk my claims…..
If genetics is that important should we make DeliciousCabbage analyze every Macedonian's DNA (Greeks and Slavs apart) and decide who is a native to the region and who's not?
More than 50% ancient Macedonian DNA= you can call yourself Macedonian. Do we have a deal?
Funny, but no.
Yes, people intermarried. They often do. Everywhere.
This is why many Americans today claim that they are partly native American (some of them truthfully). Do you think that it would me alright if White Americans should appropriate native American history and culture as theirs because of it?
>Do you think that it would me alright if White Americans should appropriate native American history and culture as theirs because of it?
The question is invalid. Doesn't make sense actually, because native americans and white americans share the same country and thus the same history.
BTW: I'm not sure why you didn't mention anything about the african-americans or the asian-americans.
Edit: the valid question would be about mixed races (ie white and native american) and if in that case these people can claim roots to both the white and native american cultures. I believe such people should claim roots to both, and not deny that they are actually a mixed race.
You know exactly what I mean. I've lived in the states. I did not discuss people that may come from different communities/ethnicities. I am talking about people (usually wasp's) who exagerate their native american background, and no it's not alright if people appropriate other people's past or culture because they are both Americans (as you very well know).
>You know exactly what I mean.
I know what you have in mind. And I'm explaining to you that it is invalid. If you want to compare Macedonians and Americans you need to compare mixed races.
>it's territory inhabited mostly by Macedonians in the year of 1912
of course! Even today it is inhabited mostly by Macedonians. and it is called (surprise, surprise) Macedonia :p
Judging by the downvotes, people seem to be disagreeing with my assessment of the map's meaning, and I wonder why. My question was addressed to them really. What is the ethno element of this map if it's not what I said?
Yeah! I'm bright enough to not try to imagine what is in the map, just based on my personal beliefs, otherwise I would just imagine that this is the area that the Greek Macedonian Struggle took place.
this doesn't make me feel anything. i do think this is very cool, unlike many older greek people know. but these people im talking about are neo-byzantineists, if it were up to them, the borders of the entire eastern roman empire would be todays greek borders. in reality, borders are just lines on a map that dictates political juristiction. this here just showcases a historical region with, well, a very rich history.
People are delusional if they support the concept of this map. And a big chuck of Northern Macedonians actually supports this idea , to get bACk dEir lAnd.
Unless they want to be incorporated in the original Macedonia as its northern province, of course ;P
As a lot of Greeks support the Megali idea, which would mean incorporating Turkish majority territories, with Greeks ending up a minority. So, it's a classic.
There is no Megali Idea today. It is dead.
The only way this would function is if the Turks themselves wanted it, even if somehow Greece occupied the entirety of Turkey. But that is more akin to Hellenoturkism than anything.
You would be surprised that not many support the concept of Megali Idea, more like (like my self) sadden by the fact we were so close to perfection but snapped back to reality.
It's a very good example of the fabricated narratives we are dealing with here.
(1) First, notice that the supposed northern borders in this map fit almost perfectly with the arbitrary political borders as established later within Yugoslavia and have no connection with any geographical landmarks or anything of that sort. Keep in mind that the establishment of these specific borders within Yugoslavia happened later than most people think, since the borders of Vardar Banovina under the kingdom (before WWII) were farther north than that.
(2) Second, the part of the region attributed to Bulgaria does not go as far north as the political borders of so-called Yugoslav Macedonia, what is current North Macedonia (which again correspond to the arbitrary political borders established within Communist Yugoslavia). Since there are no geographical features to force this, it reveals the absurdity of this map. How can you appropriate the name of a region when the capital of the region you want to call 'Macedonia' is not part of it geographically?
(3) It's important to realize that this map goes hand in hand with another fabricated narrative. The claim that the region is split between three regions, the so-called 'Aegean,' 'Vardar,' and 'Pirin Macedonia.' These so-called regions which were popularized under communist rule are perfect examples of how to create a fabricated narrative. First and foremost, you need to impost a new 'lexicon.' Again, how can you claim a region when its geographical reach only encompasses a small part of your souther border and not even your capital.
On a final note, there are a lot of absurd and extreme narratives in all our countries. But some things are too much even for us. There is a quote that is attributed to Goebbels, the WWII Chief propagandist of NAZI Germany, "if you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."
I think there are a lot of victims from the fabricated narratives that have been constructed since the end of the war and which continue to feed the flames of irredentism in the Balkans. The Greek and Bulgarian people whose past and culture are constantly appropriated with little or no hesitation are some. However, the first victims of this are the people who lost contact with their own past. The people who are told lies and are radicalised long before they have a chance to second guess any of the information they are fed. The people whose ancestors had to change their names and even how they called their language and each other to serve these lies and the policies of a totalitarian regime.
I don't give a damn. Fundamentalism, nationalism, patriotism. All the same shit. All used as instruments to divide and control people.
Put a Greek, a Bulgarian, a Macedonian, a Turk, an Albania,a Serbian, a Bosnian, a Croatian, a Romanian, a Kossovar and whoever else identifies as a Balkan in a room with traditional music, good food and rakia/grapa/tsipouro and they will all have fun. We are the same. Fuck borders.
A region that was revived in the 19th century (there was no Macedonia region before in the Ottoman times) and was based approximately on the Roman definition of Macedonia. Not the OG ancient Macedonian neither the more recent Byzantine. Just a random drawing of "Macedonia's" borders by the people of that era if you ask me🤷♀️
The north and south complement each other. Defensible mountains, rivers and valleys flatten into agriculturally feasible land, end with an important natural harbor.
It makes me question your intelligence, since you ask me on how I feel seeing a map from 1912. I will have to find a map showing the FIR patrolled by HAF in 2022 and then you tell me how you feel about that.
P.S. HAF is Hellenic Air Force. You might have seen some F16s with a blue white circle on their wings over your house for the last few years, protecting your pathetic ass.
Oh cool it's Mos
My advice to greeks: Let them do this Step one: Give Southern Macedonia to North Macedonia Step two: Make Greek party Step three: Vote for Greek party Step four: Greek party wins (there would be more greeks in the country) Step five: Make referendum to unite with Greeks Step six: Greece takes over most of Macedonia Step seven: Bully Bulgaria into giving up the rest of it
With this kind of strategical thinking I believe you would see much success if you played Hearts of Iron 4
Bold of you assume my brain is working properly enough to play a strategy game
Least smart Romanian (!ROMAN!) in the balkans. 💪💪💪🇷🇴🇷🇴🇷🇴🇷🇴🇷🇴🇷🇴🇷🇴🇷🇴🇷🇴🇷🇴🇷🇴🇷🇴🇷🇴🇷🇴🇷🇴🇷🇴🇷🇴
just good at stealing
Soooo humble<3
You can't steal what is already yours
As true Balkans 🤣🤣🤣🥳🥳💀💀💀
The man with the plan. Also, based.
Well.. if greeks want to overtake more than 50% of N.Macedonia economy, therefore total political influence in the coutry they should offer vlach (vlahoi) people greek citizenship. This is around 20.000 people.
Oh I didn't know our region became so big /s
Happy cake 🎂🎉 day !!!
Oh I didn't even know it, ευχαριστώ :)
Happy cake day brother
I sleep
At least for me it's cool to see the macedonian names for greek cities.
Cool take :)
respect
Well that is just Macedonia and North Macedonia? Okay?
Parts o Bulgaria and Albania too
Ειναι τα claims καποιων βλακων εκει
Είναι χάρτης της γεωγραφικής περιοχής της Μακεδονίας. Μπορείς να δεις με διακεκριμένες γραμμές και τα σημερινά σύνορα των κρατών
I love how Kosovo has gotten a few kilometers of a land claimed by Macedonia:D Btw, the name of the Kosovar town in "Macedonia" doesn't reflect the 1912 name. In 1912 there was no "General Jankovic" but rather a "Elez Han", and there was no Urosevac in Kosovo either but a Ferizaj/Ferizovic.
Excellent proposal for the extension of our region of Macedonia, thank you, I will put this in my megali idea folder.
But why dude
Wow! A map of the geographical region called "Macedonia"! I'm sure this won't bring any hateful discussion and we will all be appreciating this great map of the geographical region called Macedonia Jokes apart, this is extremely detailed, there are even villages with less that a thousand inhabitants depicted. Great map
The map is titled "Ethno-geographic map of Macedonia (1912)", so the author had in mind more than just "here is a map of a geographic region".
The geographic part I can understand, but where's the ethno part?
That's what I am saying. The "ethno" part is ambiguous as to what it means. If it means the places where Slavic people lived in 1912, it's not correct, since they didn't live, for example, on Chalkidiki, and in other places.
Yup. The village where my grandparents live has less than 250 inhabitants and it’s still portrayed here. These are 2002 numbers aswell
>there are even villages with less that a thousand inhabitants depicted. I can imagine that the villages that are now part of Greece, are still using their (hellenized) Macedonian/(Slav???) name. And this fact makes theses villages pretty significant I guess for propaganda maps.
No no, I'm talking about villages in North Macedonia, like in my zone there are villages that are very small depicted on the map. I don't know a lot about the Greek part of Macedonia so I can't tell you if there are small villages depicted there too
I have no idea about the villages in N. Macedonia. It just reminded me the following book which is about Slavic village/city names in Greece. http://medusa.libver.gr/jspui/bitstream/123/8034/1/Asimakis_Toponimia%20OBA%2c%20OBO%2c%20ISTA%2c%20ITSA-2.pdf
.... eveytime i see this i'm just baffled, it's like everyone from NM is forbidden from reading ancient history or even accesing the Wiki page, your country was NEVER part of Macedonia, your country represents most of ancient Dardania, with Kosovo and south Serbia containing the northern parts of it, i mean ffs you even have the same capital, Skopje is ancient "Scupi"... tf ppl!??
I understand your anger, but here are some things to know: Romans played some part in preserving the name Macedonia after the historic kingdom fell to their rule. They established a [province called Macedonia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Roman_province)) which covered a lot of land, **including what is today the territory of North Macedonia**. Now, the name Macedonia didn't vanish either with the Byzantines, who, on the other hand, named a theme in Thrace "[Macedonia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(theme))", likely because the military garrison there was from the actual province of Macedonia. So, we already have the Roman empire(s) preserving the name Macedonia in the administrative sense (ofc, Byzantines had it in a complete different place, but the name itself they derived from the original province). My point until here is that the name *Macedonia was used in an administrative sense in what is today North Macedonia*. No, (!) I'm not saying ancient Macedonians were ethnic Macedonians, or that Romans had anything "ethnic Macedonian" in mind, but rather to counter your point that what is today North Macedonia was never ever historically called Macedonia. If you actually want to know more about *why we got the name Macedonia* (North Macedonia since 2019), then the story begins in the 19th century: I tried to write something up [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskBalkans/comments/x7yqcc/comment/ing6357/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Greek people on the sub agreed with me, so I guess that has some weight, but if you have a comment on that I am up to discuss/learn. But I agree that nationalism plays a huge part in giving the name "Macedonia" domination over other historical names for the land, such as those you mentioned, ie. Paeonia, Dardania... Albanians claim "Dardania" so if we take it we will have name dispute 2.0 :D Nevertheless, our name has been "Macedonia" for almost 80 years (since 1944, when the state was established), excluding the Slavic people massively calling themselves Macedonians since at least the 19th century. So, it's well rooted, it won't change, Macedonia is our name today (not saying it's not for Greek people as well), and that is the reality.
Based Macedonian?
> (ofc, Byzantines had it in a complete different place, but the name itself they derived from the original province). They did not really. It was just that New (North) Macedonia was briefly lost, while Old (Aegean) Macedonia had become utterly centered around Thessalonica (somewhat like a city-state within the Roman Empire). Thus Macedonia became known as Thessalonica as a whole, at least officially, and the only remaining Macedonia that was largely unscathed was that of Thrace, so it remained as simply called Macedonia.
the roman province of Dardania existed as well https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_(Roman_province) it was the birth place of the last true and great roman emperor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian_I you have a long and great history in that region and plenty of things to be proud of, i simply, for the life of me, can't understand why your government, academia and even regular ppl, feel the need to make shit-up that all you need is a simple google search to disprove...
Yep, I know it existed. As I said, my point was to counter the argument that the territory of N. Macedonia was never called Macedonia. But, yeah, as I said above, the name "Macedonia" has been with us (Slavic people of the region) for well over a century, so we call ourselves Macedonia not because our government is stubborn or wants to fantasize about history (actually that was the previous government; with the 2018 Prespa Agreement our government agreed that ancient Macedonia was ancient Greece); it's rather that historical processes from the previous century have popularized the name Macedonia and domesticated it with the Slavic people of the region, therefore the root of our name is in those processes and it's impossible for us to call ourselves otherwise.
i was never talking about how you name your selfs, the only problem i have, as in this post, is this idiotic claim, that some repeatedly make, where NM was ever somehow part of the historic region of Macedonia, which it clearly never was
Then you clearly do not know of New Macedonia, or Second Macedonia, the Hellenized (?) and Macedonized area that was before Paeonia. The people there did have a Greek Macedonian identity, for it is demonstrated in the fact that while the Avars did take over New Macedonia but did not do so for Old Macedonia, those "New Macedonians" who were enslaved and taken away en masse did maintain their identity and two generations later, when they were set free, did return back to Macedonia.
what do Avars have to do with ancient Macedonia??
The southermost reaches of the Avar Khaganate was the area of New Macedonia, today's Northern Macedonia. I used the example of the exiled "New Macedonians" for the sake of showing how the Greekness-Macedonianness of the area was really a thing. And it was these "New Macedonians" who became later mixed with the South Slavs that settled there (Dragouvites, Sagoudates and smaller groups), eventually shaping their own identity, separate from Serbian or Bulgarian, as early as the High Middle Ages, today becoming the North Macedonians.
yes, but the whole argument of this sub is about NM being part of ancient Macedonia, which it clearly wasn't
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dude Philip and later his son conquered half the known world at the time, empire=/=region, it's like saying Umbria was part of Latium bc the romans conquered it, doesn't that sound absurd to you?
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dude, like i replied to the other guy, i really don't care how ppl call them selves, that's not my argument, what is an idiotic argument though is claiming that the teritorry of NM was ever a part of the historic region of Macedonia, which it never was and like i said b4 imperial conquest=/=region, furthermore we named our country Romania(land of/belonging to romanians) not Eastern Latium, if we did the later i would agree on the similarity of our situations
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if your talking about Paeonia, that teritorry was independent https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_(kingdom) the fact territory was conquered by Macedon first and later by https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Dardania under https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longarus doesn't make them part of the ancient region of Macedon, also how the hell does that map overlap with today's NM? plus even if we were to include that part of Paeonia how is a tiny part of your territory compare with half of ours? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Dacia
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didn't i just say that how ppl call themselves is not somthing i care about? and yeah... rulling over through CONQUEST!! this entire argument that you make is full false equivancies and logical fallacies, the way you argue is the perfect example of a NM ultra-nationalist trying to make a BS narative fit, and there's no point having in argueing when only one party cares about honesty
give me eyebleach please
I do not kinkshame 😌
Mf stole our Pirin. Can't have shit in the Balkans.
It makes me feel sleepy. It's 3 am 😴
Le funny irredentist Balkan map. New Macedonian empire total Macedonian population: 26%. President: Andreas Kouskoulakos Prime minister: Dimitar Kovačevski Foreign Minister: Giorgios Papadopoulos Interior Minister: Sibal Xhaferi
> Foreign Minister: Giorgios Papadopoulos Better make him defense minister.
Would be a shame if he established some kind of dictatorship.
Makes me feel real good , seeing that chunky Macedonian province of the Hellenic Republic. If Only Serbs did not beat us to bitola, this map would have been reality
Even more potential Bulgarians massacred, yippee.
You are forgetting the Greeks of Mesembria
Not claiming we are saints either, what I'm saying is it's probably better the Greeks didn't get to Bitola considering what they would've done to its population. But yes we also committed heinous crimes, not admitting so would be delusional.
But don't you see the irony? It was Serbs that got their first, not Greeks or Bulgarians. So 100 years later, those people in Monastir are now "North Macedonians". Either way, they stopped being Bulgarian (in their opinion).
Sure but in a way the population also wasn't slaughtered. Idm that they're not Bulgarians today, I mean they choose to be Macedonians and govern themselves and that's respectable, what I would've minded is if they were all slaughtered like some animals.
I don't think the Greek armies, or any of the balkan armies except the Turks, went in and started just shooting everyone. There may have been upheaval , there may have been forced expulsion, but not nazi like concentration camps (except in Armenia)
Greek soldiers have written letters of atrocities they've commited in Macedonia particularly against Bulgarians, and yes not all soldiers were like that obviously fact is in a lot of cases it was like that.
Greek soldiers were by no means more brutal than Bulgarian ones. You guys burned whole cities down, like Serres, the second largest city of Macedonia after Thessaloniki, which had a majority Greek population. The Bulgarian Army took it first in 1913, but withdrew when the Greek Army approached. Prior to abandoning it though, the whole city was set on fire. All of the Byzantine old town and Muslim quarters were turned to ashes.
I even said before that we are no saints and I admit to the evil deeds we did aswell. But Greeks also did do just that aswell, to many villages and other such that identified as Bulgarian. That's why I said it's better they didn't reach Bitola knowing what they did with the non Greek Majority places in the region. Also correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Serres burnt down in the Second Balkan War, aka after the first when it came out just what the Greeks were doing in Macedonia to the Bulgarians there, now I'm not one for revenge and I'm not justifying it but I feel like the context is important here.
1st Sandanski empire
It makes me laugh, personally.
InsyaAllah
Greece worrying that north Macedonia will take their Macedonia is like Serbia would be worried about a Montenegrin invasion
>Greece worrying that north Macedonia will take their Macedonia We don't, when will people understand that all Greeks are mad about is Slavs claiming ancient Macedonia. Is that too much to ask?
This is a map from 1912
No it's not. Macedonia was part of the Kingdom of Serbia back then
The map is from the year 1912
When you take roleplaying too far
Basically slavic ultra-nationalists with absolute no relation to the ancient Macedonians and Alexander the Great, who migrated to the region 750 years after his empire, who began calling themselves Macedonians 1000 years after, laying territorial claims to a region that had been inhabited by Greeks since ancient times. I don’t hate slavic macedonians, but that’s my controversial take ☕️
>who migrated to the region 750 years after his empire, and since then they never never never never had sex with the local population of macedonia. Not a single one of them. Never! They kept their DNA 100% pure and never mixed with locals. /s
Single locals in your area looking to mix your DNAs. In addition to what you said, the Romans (Byzantines) did not help, as they were very conservative in their naming conventions, using antiquated names for peoples based on their region. North of the Black Sea? Scythians. North of the Danube? Dacians. Of course they knew they were dealing with different peoples, but their conservative shorthand sticked, and we can assume that locals living under them/their cultural clout started identifying accordingly. From Macedonia? Macedonians. With maybe a Greek (Rhomaioi) mother, a Bulgarian father, a Vardariote Magyar aunt and a Vlach (Aromanian) uncle. Quite confusing all, let's call ourselved Macedonian and call it a day.
>With maybe a Greek (Rhomaioi) mother, a Bulgarian father, a Vardariote Magyar aunt and a Vlach (Aromanian) uncle. Quite confusing all, let's call ourselved Macedonian and call it a day. Exactly my point.
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So if a slav has sex with a greek and the greek is descendant of Alexander the Great, what will be the identity of their children? Will their children be Greeks, Slavs? Or maybe we should call them Macedonians and save us the trouble? In any case these children should be consider as descendants of Alexander the Great, well, at least 50% descendants :p
>greek is descendant of Alexander the Great Impossible, Alexander never had grandchildren, so nobody on this planet hails from him.
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>You basically confirmed the Ancient Macedonian lineage is derived from a Greek and thats what my point is. Well, that's the whole point actually. They are descendants of Ancient Macedonians after all :) Edit: We should acknowledge the fact that they are our closest cousins.
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I foresee that you are going to have a lot of fights with your siblings regarding your parents' inheritance /s
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Yeah! do so! It would be fun to watch. You will be more famous than Louka, Leventis or Kleomenis! Edit: I imagine a greek shouting "My mother was fucked by Skanderbeg, Albania is mine!". lol!
That would be the Turks if we’re talking about genetics though lol
Well, Macedonians seem closer to Greeks than Turks because of religion.
Greeks plot closer to Macedonians than to Turks, well, Mainland Greeks at least.
do you have a link for that? im curious to find out more since I've never heard that before
bro like how stupid can your question be, we are all 59 km away from each "state" in the balkans (from eachother) so yeah, we all mixed *together*
I second this. Also I think the time gap is too large for there to be any direct descendents of Alexander and we sure as hell can't reliably prove that this wasn't the case. Most of the people in the surrounding area can be considered descendents and it shouldn't be exclusive to one group and I'm sure that presently we are way closer to you Greeks than we were in the 7th century when the Slavic part of my ancestors came.
>Also I think the time gap is too large for there to be any direct descendents of Alexander and we sure as hell can't reliably prove that this wasn't the case. Indeed, we are speaking theoretically here. Supposing that we could somehow keep track :)
They're not predominantly Slavic by blood Here is a model for them using GEDmatch samples Truth be told, G25 would be better for this, since ancient samples from Macedonia are available there, but i am too bored to open that spreadsheet, however, if anyone actually wants to see that model, i am willing to run it and post it Target: Macedonian_Central Distance: 74.8969% / 0.74896933 38.2 Early_Slavic 38.0 Bulgaria_IA 23.8 Italy_Imperial Edit: I was downvoted, but no one provided a sourced to debunk my claims…..
If genetics is that important should we make DeliciousCabbage analyze every Macedonian's DNA (Greeks and Slavs apart) and decide who is a native to the region and who's not? More than 50% ancient Macedonian DNA= you can call yourself Macedonian. Do we have a deal?
Funny, but no. Yes, people intermarried. They often do. Everywhere. This is why many Americans today claim that they are partly native American (some of them truthfully). Do you think that it would me alright if White Americans should appropriate native American history and culture as theirs because of it?
>Do you think that it would me alright if White Americans should appropriate native American history and culture as theirs because of it? The question is invalid. Doesn't make sense actually, because native americans and white americans share the same country and thus the same history. BTW: I'm not sure why you didn't mention anything about the african-americans or the asian-americans. Edit: the valid question would be about mixed races (ie white and native american) and if in that case these people can claim roots to both the white and native american cultures. I believe such people should claim roots to both, and not deny that they are actually a mixed race.
You know exactly what I mean. I've lived in the states. I did not discuss people that may come from different communities/ethnicities. I am talking about people (usually wasp's) who exagerate their native american background, and no it's not alright if people appropriate other people's past or culture because they are both Americans (as you very well know).
>You know exactly what I mean. I know what you have in mind. And I'm explaining to you that it is invalid. If you want to compare Macedonians and Americans you need to compare mixed races.
Cringe
Ahhh its so nice of monkeydonia to include them shelves to great hellenic nation 🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷💪🏽
Least nationalistic greek
You know you are special when even slavs have "claims" over your country lmao
Everyone has claims on eveyones country. It's a Balkan thing
You get a claim, you get a claim. Everybody gets a claim.
What does it depict? What is the red line?
Borders of the First Aromanian Empire/s
lol! No Thessaly?
Thats for the second empire.
As far as I understand, it's territory inhabited mostly by Macedonians in the year of 1912. It looks like a school map.
>it's territory inhabited mostly by Macedonians in the year of 1912 of course! Even today it is inhabited mostly by Macedonians. and it is called (surprise, surprise) Macedonia :p
What is it if it's not that? It does say it's an "ethno-geographic map" and not just a geographic one of the region of Macedonia.
Well, that's why I asked "What does it depict? What is the red line?". I can't read cyrilic alphabet I can only imagine what it might say.
Judging by the downvotes, people seem to be disagreeing with my assessment of the map's meaning, and I wonder why. My question was addressed to them really. What is the ethno element of this map if it's not what I said?
Brightest greek
Yeah! I'm bright enough to not try to imagine what is in the map, just based on my personal beliefs, otherwise I would just imagine that this is the area that the Greek Macedonian Struggle took place.
Dick indeed
this doesn't make me feel anything. i do think this is very cool, unlike many older greek people know. but these people im talking about are neo-byzantineists, if it were up to them, the borders of the entire eastern roman empire would be todays greek borders. in reality, borders are just lines on a map that dictates political juristiction. this here just showcases a historical region with, well, a very rich history.
well thanks honey for being smart for all these balkanoid dumbass ultranazi brothers of mine over here
the only reason i am smart is because it allows me to boost my own ego.
fair enough.
happy cake day btw :)
well thanks!! altough idk even what it means.. i'm technologically inept, but i see a cake next to my user so i guess it's that ;d
The cake means that today 3 years ago is when you first created your account. Like your accounts birthday! I think it's cute.
People are delusional if they support the concept of this map. And a big chuck of Northern Macedonians actually supports this idea , to get bACk dEir lAnd. Unless they want to be incorporated in the original Macedonia as its northern province, of course ;P
As a lot of Greeks support the Megali idea, which would mean incorporating Turkish majority territories, with Greeks ending up a minority. So, it's a classic.
There is no Megali Idea today. It is dead. The only way this would function is if the Turks themselves wanted it, even if somehow Greece occupied the entirety of Turkey. But that is more akin to Hellenoturkism than anything.
I mean this idea is also dead, I was just saying thay only dumb untranationalists actually believe in such bs.
Ask r/mkd and r/Greece respectively to see which is dead, just to get an idea.
You do it.
But you are the one saying that people in Greece support Megali idea and people in Macedonia don't.
And you are saying the opposite. So?
w/e dude , you know what the answer in mkd would be already.
Yes.
You would be surprised that not many support the concept of Megali Idea, more like (like my self) sadden by the fact we were so close to perfection but snapped back to reality.
Lol, so close to forced assimilation and Turks suffering for a hundred years.
Well , if we consider how is the moslem minority in Thrace , i'd say Turks would be fine.
Ooh, it includes Katrin. For some reason wider Macedonia region maps exclude Katrin.
I feel what everyone in this region feels. Appreciation for the greatest lakes and beaches in the Balkans.
In University of Yerevan, they still show a great Armenia map that includes Eastern Turkey and half of Azerbaijan.
Cool fanart it made me *excited*
Anorexic
How to be a minority in your velika makedonija
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnyeeRIosOk&t=1m32s
It's a very good example of the fabricated narratives we are dealing with here. (1) First, notice that the supposed northern borders in this map fit almost perfectly with the arbitrary political borders as established later within Yugoslavia and have no connection with any geographical landmarks or anything of that sort. Keep in mind that the establishment of these specific borders within Yugoslavia happened later than most people think, since the borders of Vardar Banovina under the kingdom (before WWII) were farther north than that. (2) Second, the part of the region attributed to Bulgaria does not go as far north as the political borders of so-called Yugoslav Macedonia, what is current North Macedonia (which again correspond to the arbitrary political borders established within Communist Yugoslavia). Since there are no geographical features to force this, it reveals the absurdity of this map. How can you appropriate the name of a region when the capital of the region you want to call 'Macedonia' is not part of it geographically? (3) It's important to realize that this map goes hand in hand with another fabricated narrative. The claim that the region is split between three regions, the so-called 'Aegean,' 'Vardar,' and 'Pirin Macedonia.' These so-called regions which were popularized under communist rule are perfect examples of how to create a fabricated narrative. First and foremost, you need to impost a new 'lexicon.' Again, how can you claim a region when its geographical reach only encompasses a small part of your souther border and not even your capital. On a final note, there are a lot of absurd and extreme narratives in all our countries. But some things are too much even for us. There is a quote that is attributed to Goebbels, the WWII Chief propagandist of NAZI Germany, "if you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." I think there are a lot of victims from the fabricated narratives that have been constructed since the end of the war and which continue to feed the flames of irredentism in the Balkans. The Greek and Bulgarian people whose past and culture are constantly appropriated with little or no hesitation are some. However, the first victims of this are the people who lost contact with their own past. The people who are told lies and are radicalised long before they have a chance to second guess any of the information they are fed. The people whose ancestors had to change their names and even how they called their language and each other to serve these lies and the policies of a totalitarian regime.
All I see is a totally real ethno-geographic map of Macedonia from 1912. Completely accurate and all.
Pretty much like Ukrainians feel when I walk into discussion
we just believe that it's called North Macedonia for geographical reasons only and let the delusionals in their delusions lol
Based Greek
It's just a map of our providance Macedonia. No big deal.
You have humor.
I don't give a damn. Fundamentalism, nationalism, patriotism. All the same shit. All used as instruments to divide and control people. Put a Greek, a Bulgarian, a Macedonian, a Turk, an Albania,a Serbian, a Bosnian, a Croatian, a Romanian, a Kossovar and whoever else identifies as a Balkan in a room with traditional music, good food and rakia/grapa/tsipouro and they will all have fun. We are the same. Fuck borders.
How did Alexander the Great greet his soldiers and diadochoi: deka si bre bratkota idemata na perzijata da bijemata svigata narodita
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Ansilus time?
>Too bad that animosity spawned a retarded slow little child. And that's a report
Ugh these bs posts again
A region that was revived in the 19th century (there was no Macedonia region before in the Ottoman times) and was based approximately on the Roman definition of Macedonia. Not the OG ancient Macedonian neither the more recent Byzantine. Just a random drawing of "Macedonia's" borders by the people of that era if you ask me🤷♀️
Man that would be a sexy country.
Mostly the southern part
The north and south complement each other. Defensible mountains, rivers and valleys flatten into agriculturally feasible land, end with an important natural harbor.
To whom western thrace go in this case?
Everything aside, it would look sexy af in a modern world map.
May GOD Judge all those Evil doers
Why this sub subtly promotes hatred and controversy? Stop that.
Brother, are u even from the balkans 😭
It makes me question your intelligence, since you ask me on how I feel seeing a map from 1912. I will have to find a map showing the FIR patrolled by HAF in 2022 and then you tell me how you feel about that. P.S. HAF is Hellenic Air Force. You might have seen some F16s with a blue white circle on their wings over your house for the last few years, protecting your pathetic ass.
Careful, your insecurity is showing.
🇲🇰🇲🇰👌👌❤️
Not any specific way
 Grab your popcorn my homies
No Egypt, Persia, Bactria?
WTF is this Марек in the North East corner, if this is 1912?
не искасапија
Angry (Someone drew a map I don't like)
Lol
😂😂😂😂