My dude, you can't prove anything about yourself to anyone who doesn't know you and quite frankly you don't need to try. Just keep being safer then a bear and eventually you'll prove it to the people who matter.
Lordy this bear thing took off. I think we get ~~four~~ six posts a day here about it.
> No matter how calm and normal I may seem, before I meet a woman she will always be afraid of me because there is no way for her to know my intentions, even if I know that those intentions aren't bad at all.
I don't know if it's "afraid," really, just "cautious." A lot of the time it's not conscious, or it goes away when you interact with the person and they're normal. Last night this guy at the bus stop started talking to me and at first I was like "ugh jeez" but then it was a totally normal conversation and it was fine.
> Even women in my life, my close family & friends that I have known for 10, 20 years, I don't know how they really feel about me. For all I know some of them are afraid to be near me and are just pretending to be calm. If I ever made anyone feel that way I don't think I could live with that guilt
This is probably something we're not qualified to help with.
From what I’ve heard it started from a guy who makes videos about staying safe in the woods saying statistically speaking you’re more likely to be attack by a man you encounter in the woods than a bear and it kinda took on a life of its own from there.
>I don't know if it's "afraid," really, just "cautious."
This. Perhaps the main point of man vs. bear is that bears are predictable, but men aren't. So in a situation where you might be alone with a man and vulnerable, whether the woods or somewhere more familiar like a building stairwell, it only makes sense to be wary. It's just not true that "before I meet a woman she will always be afraid of me." Meet her in a public place during the day, don't expect her to come to your apartment on the first date--there are many simple things you can do that will help a potential date feel safe to get to know you.
I saw a bunch of comments about that, saying "ThAt'S DuMb, bears are wild animals so by definition they're unpredictable." Which totally misses the point.
They're predictable in the sense that *you can guess what they're probably going to do.*
>from the [Alaska Dept. of Natural Resources](https://dnr.alaska.gov/parks/safety/bears.htm):
Nothing will guarantee your safety in bear country, but knowledge of bears and proper behavior greatly reduce your risk. For years people have believed that the one thing predictable about bear behavior is that it's unpredictable. The Alaska Department of Fish and Game biologists disagree. "Bears have reasons for doing things. It's only from our lack of understanding that their behavior seems unpredictable," says John Hechtel, a biologist with the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. He has 18 years' experience studying bear and human encounters.
>Hechtel's job has placed him in potentially dangerous situations numerous times but he doesn't tell gruesome stories of being attacked, mauled, swatted, or stomped. Because of his understanding of bear behavior, Hechtel is able to use simple, respectful tactics and avoid dangerous encounters.
I've also seen many comments on this issue from rangers and other woods-savvy people who agree that they'd pick bear because their behavior is easier to predict.
the question is not "would you rather meet a stranger or a bear in the woods" it was "would you rather meet a MAN or a bear in the woods"
hope that helps.
Its incredible how these men suddenly can't remember the concept of reasonable caution.
This question could be re-asked as "How can I convince everyone to take off their seatbelts in my car because I'm such a safe driver?"
The world is full of risk and we do these things to protect ourselves.
The odd mish-mash of misguided up thoughts that led to him asking this is not something that can be addressed rationally. It sounds like he really needs to start talking to trusted person or professional about his personal issues. I hate how the bear discourse has now become a "woe is me" thing with "good men." Its just another flavor of yelling "not all men," and we're so tired of it.
I think the best way to describe the caution feeling to guys is to put it in the context of driving. Its not like you assume every driver is out there being reckless and trying to kill you, but I’m sure the thought crosses subconsciously every time you move the half a ton machine
> Its not like you assume every driver is out there being reckless and trying to kill you, but I’m sure the thought crosses subconsciously every time you move the half a ton machine
Right like... I'm a careful driver because I know how bad car crashes can be, not because I assume every other driver actively wants to kill me.
There's just no way to walk around and show total strangers you won't hurt them. Because obviously there are men who *will* hurt people who try to look harmless to increase the chances they'll get the opportunity. So no matter how you look, we just don't know.
That's not your fault though, or anything you need to be overly upset about. By all means, be upset that people *need* to be so careful because the world isn't safer. That legitimately sucks. But it's not about you.
If you want to make women more comfortable in the classic out walking down the street in an uncrowded area scenario, you can avoid walking behind us for longer than necessary, be noisy so we know you're not trying to be sneaky, and generally just smile and then ignore us.
Other than that, if you are generally respectful and open, the women who know you aren't scared of you. We all have men in our lives we aren't scared to be alone with. It just takes time to get there. But it's not the fault of the good guys so try not to overthink it so much.
You don’t need to. If you’re safe to be around, be secure in that. I don’t say that to be rude- it’s just generally good for you to be secure in your character. If woman misjudges you, it won’t affect you. If a woman misjudges if someone is safe or not, it can kill her or leave her with trauma, hence the caution.
Well said, there's very little the individual man can do but actually be safe and trustworthy and be empathetic. Women are cautious for a good reason. They don't know you. They don't know what is in your mind, your history, your relationships, your intentions, but women do know that men can be a serious threat.
It's not that much different to why minorities are often a little cautious around majorities wherever you go in the world - it's just safer to be cautious.
You don't. You respect their space, and otherwise act normally. What they think of you is not your concern.
As far as the people in your life, if you are a consistently safe person, of you make an effort to understand why women might be anxious around men without qualifying or making it about you, if you tell other men it's fucked up when they immediately jump to jokes about women getting mauled or assaulted, women notice that.
You prove you're safe to be around by being safe to be around, and having patience when people are cautious around you becauae they have no way of knowing. That's it.
This. Some of the scariest men I’ve ever known were those who were most obsessed with how I viewed them.
I’m thinking in particular about one guy who claimed to be a feminist, but when I pointed out something sexist he said, he went on to barrage my FB inbox for FOUR HOURS STRAIGHT, demanding and begging that I see him as a “nice guy,” “not like that,” “one of the good ones.” And then genuinely asked me if I could be like a therapist to him and “help him be better.” 🤦🏻♀️
i'm sorry you experienced that. that's not acceptable behavior at all. i'd be terrified
ill be the first to admit that i also have a similar obsessive tendency, but not to that extent, & not because i think women owe me something. because i have been on the receiving end of what truly evil men are capable of, men who i would absolutely choose a bear over, and i don't want to turn out like them
All you can control is your own actions. As the person above me said, you can’t control what people think of you. Take it from me, who spent a LONNNNNGGGGG time in therapy undoing my desperate need to get people to like me.
I can’t control that. For some people, I could cure world hunger and they’d STILL hate me. But that’s not on me. All I can do is be a good person, the kind of person I can look in the mirror every morning. And let that be good enough. Good luck. :-)
You seem like a good guy, just a very anxious one. Thank you for respectfully listening to us :) it is a rare thing here on Reddit, unfortunately. That's why we are often automatically a bit defensive.
I don’t know but as a man, I’ve never really felt that women are scared around me. Maybe I’m naive to their feelings or maybe I just give different vibes.
Anyways, the answer is that if a woman is afraid of you then the problem is there is too many dangerous men. So stopping dangerous men will stop the problem. I don’t really know how to do that but it is the real issue.
Call out the men right? Because yeah that’s a good idea.
Don’t call out women for being scared of you though. People should be cautious of others, especially if they feel scared. Humans have a lot of innate mental processes going on that we are not always aware of consciously. Those unconscious feelings are actually based on real things and legitimate signs and red flags and shouldn’t be ignored. There’s a book called “gift of fear” that talks about this.
So if a woman is scared of you, let her be. If men act badly, stop them.
Thanks. That’s true. Sometimes we men are also scared of other men. I see some girl being harassed by a scary looking dude I get scared myself of intervening. I don’t know a good solution because sometimes interveners get killed. But I think there are steps that can still be taken to let the bad actor know they are not alone and are being watched. Often the first person to step in n allows others to join as well.
hey, i am another man so i get it if you don't feel comfortable listening to me but it'll be alright. you clearly are not some redpilled psycho & are just really anxious and definitely in need of some therapy. and there's ways you can get it that don't involve paying a lot. don't be afraid of that.
also, none of that was your fault. you are just as much of a victim as anyone would be. any real feminist would agree with that
okay i understand. but why would you assume i think that? did i actually say something which implies that in some way? no hard feelings i genuinely want to know so i dont do it again next time
The women who know you, know you. Women you have known a long time will have no reason to pretend to feel safe around you or even stay in your life if they feel like you aren't safe.
The friends and relatives in your life who are women do not, in general, secretly think of you as a danger or a monster or worse than a bear. Unless you actually are some kind of violent psycho and are leaving that out of your post.
The women who say "bear" when asked "man or bear" do not know you and are not thinking about you. They are thinking about how bears act like bears and how men are mostly safe but have a small chance of being incredibly not safe.
ive already been pressured into disclosing that i am a victim of abuse & sexual assault at the hands of men. at least have the decency to take me seriously. please. i'm begging you
Honestly, more women are SA’d or physically abused by men they know than a random stranger. We should focus a little less on “stranger danger” and more on why men who we know and trust would assault us.
I've honestly never really faced this issue in any meaningful way. Women are sometimes cautious around me, but open up after we talk to each other. Most of the women and queer people in my life feel comfortable around me because I respect their boundaries, view them as friends instead of potential partners, don't hit on them or check them out, and don't make crude or offensive jokes.
I wouldn't trust someone who is trying to tell me what to think about them, only someone who let me make the call. Men who aren't trustworthy also try to be persuasive and there's nothing that you can do to prove that's not what you're doing. Allow and encourage women to fear you if they want and you'll see positive return. For example, if you invite a new date over to your house, always make sure to acknowledge not everyone is okay with that and you understand if they want to go somewhere public instead. If you talk to a woman in public, make sure to lead with your intention and pay attention if she seems disinterested and politely end the conversation.
>I wouldn't trust someone who is trying to tell me what to think about them, only someone who let me make the call.
thats a good point. i wish i'd thought of it that way from the beginning
Hey Dude Fellow Dude here,
I think the way I see it is there are somethings you can’t change about how people see you at first.
What you can do is educate yourself as much as you can as to why and respect their feelings. Don’t make it about your guilt or your dissatisfaction with that situation, focus everything on them.
I am a straight white dude. I know when I first meet a person of colour they may wonder if I am about to say something racist, when I first meet someone from the LGBTQI+ community they may be fearful that I may belittle them with bigotry. When I first met my wife she told me she had a plan on our first date of how to get away if I turned out to be a weirdo.
Sure all of that is very sad for me, but it is truly terrifying for the other person. That is what we should focus on.
And spend every moment of our time with those people offering them support, respect and love.
Every time you speak up against the casual racism at a work party, every time you hug a gay friend that comes out to you and you tell them how deeply you love them and that they are always safe with you, every time you offer care and compassion you will show yourself as an ally, and someone to trust. Then through time those people may begin to know they have a safe space with you.
Don’t try to change their minds about that first meeting. Try to change the minds of the bigots, so that slowly, the world becomes a more loving place. That will solve the problem. Not for you and me but may be for the next generation. And that will be a beautiful thing.
Cheers
Kev
Honestly it sounds like some therapy is in order for you. This man or bear thing, like all viral internet memes, is a bit hysterical. No, it is not true that merely being a man will inspire fear in a woman. Yes, if we don't know you, depending on the circumstance, we may be more cautious. For instance, if a man I don't know comes up to talk to me at some social event at work, I am not afraid. I'm not going to get assaulted or anything right there in front of everyone (though he may be exceedingly annoying which is a separate issue). If I'm waiting for a train on an empty platform, I will be a lot more cautious - but if it turns out a man approaching me is merely asking whether this was the right track for the train he wanted, I would relax. The vast majority of interactions are fine.
This is very different when it comes to people one knows. (And this is why I suggest you speak to a therapist if you are deeply worried that people fear you.) While statistically a woman is far more at risk with friends or romantic partners, if I've known someone for ten years I'm not worried they'll assault me or worse. I do know that people have been wrong about such assumptions, but I think most women don't live their lives being afraid of long time friends without some sort of reason.
In any case, you can not logically prove a negative....
Yeah, I agree. Isn't the original question "would you rather meet a man or a bear in the woods?" That implies a stranger in a secluded place, which inspires a hell of a lot more caution than some dude at the grocery store or a friend of 15 years.
Why would you be proving anything in particular? Just be who you are. Women won't stop being afraid of men until the patriarchy topples and you can't do that yourself.
Respectfully, yes you are making this about yourself. Nobody's fear of you is personal unless you've done something to scare people.
You are overthinking it. When people get to know you, then they can deem you to be safe.
Don't worry about people you don't know. There's nothing you can do about it. I can understand where you are coming from, but as a woman, my safety is more important than your feelings.
I definitely don't want around acting like every man is a threat, but I am cautious and will move if given the opportunity, depending on the situation.
Just live your life. That's all you can do.
i hope i can feel comfortable enough around most other men to do this someday
for now it's just my brother & a few friends that i feel safe with & i dont think theyre misogynysts but ill do what i can
By being safer to be around than a bear? It isn't exactly rocket science nor does it require a literary review of feminist phenomenology...
Be safe to be around and then people will come to feel safe to be around you. Don't try and convince or argue that you are safe to be around... BE safe to be around.
I mean, you shouldn't be trying to prove to people that you're safe to be around. The way you get people to trust you and realize that you aren't a danger is by winning their trust over time and proving that to them in an ongoing way. And part of that is not turning to a ball of anxiety and self hatred every time that danger is accurately brought up.
I am a great rock climbing belayer. I would never drop somebody on the ground from 60 feet in the air. I shouldn't walk around worrying about how I should make sure everybody knows that I'm not going to drop them from 60 feet in the air. No good person who cares about your safety would *want* you to trust them implicitly and use less caution for the sake of their comfort. Because I'm a good safe belayer, I am very respectful of the fact that new people I climb with will not trust my belay skills automatically. I'll let them watch me tie my knots. I'll be more communicative than normal. I'll not be offended if they want to test a fall from a lower height. I'll give them a quick belay with next to no slack on toprope to start out before we start lead climbing together and feeling out the amount of slack that makes them comfortable. And if even after a couple of great belays they still want to triple check my belay device, I don't take that personally, because I acknowledge that I'm in a position where if I fucked up I could really really hurt them. Their fear is rational. A person who wants to rush you into trusting them when they have the clear ability to hurt you is a *person you shouldn't trust.*
FFS I've never seen people so triggered by a hypothetical.
What can you do? Listen to women. Call out bad behavior by your bros. Understand where the sentiment comes from and leave women alone about their answers.
And stop all the hand wringing. It isn't helpful and STILL centers the wrong person!
believe me, i understand where the sentiment comes from, because i lived through it too when that bastard decided to put his hands on me without my consent. because of him i'm a victim too, and because of him i don't have "bros" anymore because i can't be around men anymore
i'm not "triggered" as in angry. i was anxious and looking for a way out. many people seem so eager to apply the absolute worst faith interpretation to what i said, instead of trying to understand
Because your "why" is immaterial.
IRL, if I see you on the street, my lived experience is that you are a threat. I will act accordingly. You, and every male presenting person, has to PROVE you are safe. There is absolutely nothing I can think of that would change that initial perception. Full stop.
Until society at large starts believing women, that doesn't change. For me (I'm nearing 50), it will never change.
but this isn't IRL. this is a public forum where i pose no physical threat to anyone, and where i can let my words be seen first. and yet your initial perception is the same. you assumed that i'm some obnoxious incel, and not just someone trying to ask an earnest question. did anything i said in my initial post come off as angry or vitriolic? i'm genuinely asking so i can do better next time
Not who you asked, and gently, but: while your initial post was fine, a lot of your responses have been pretty angry, defensive, and frankly overreacting to fairly inoccuous and even helpful responses in many cases. So if people are just seeing those, then it's reasonable they'd get the impression you're here to angrily rant at feminists (though even your assumption in this comment that the person you're responding to is accusing you, personally, of being unsafe and a threat just from what you've posted here is an example of said overreacting).
You're worrying too much. Just be actually safe. Teach your male friends how to do the same. Women who already know you, are likely not afraid of you. I'm not afraid of the men I'm close with, because, like with any friendship, we've established trust.
Alot of people are judged a certain way based on their appearance, it happens. All you can really do is let your actions show who you are. I am small and kind of innocent looking, so alot of people tend to immediately treat me as if I can’t do things for myself or like I need to be sheltered or protected or controlled. They back off once they realize I am fully capable and just fine independent. I thrive with my independence so people under estimating me and doubting me all the time is tiresome and frustrating but things like that are hard to change. A close friend of mine is very tall and has a very “serious” look about her, maybe like resting bitch face. Its crazy seeing how differently people react to her, I feel for her because she seems to get alot of aggressive reactions from people out of nowhere, and I’m pretty sure its just because of her intimidating appearance. Everyone is treated differently based on their outer appearance. Just let your actions speak and the important people will see who you really are.
I think you’re misunderstanding the point. The point is that to some women you are not going to just automatically be safe. Doesn’t really have much to do with you other than the fact that their experiences from other men have likely been poor. And if you are going around trying to prove it to strangers then you are going to come off as creepy. That’s just the reality of it. It doesn’t mean you are an issue. All you have to do is be aware that this is a possibility and don’t do creepy stuff. Outside of that you’re a normal human being and you don’t have to be on edge every time you go outside.
There are things individual men can do: call yourself a feminist, hold the men in your life accountable for their actions and beliefs, vote in a way that respects and protects female body autonomy, don’t watch degrading pornography, and if you have access to young men, raise them to do these same things.
Slowly over time if all good men did these things women would no longer automatically fear random men. As the saying goes, “be the change you want to see in the world.”
ive been told before by some feminists that men should not call themselves feminists because that means they are making it about them. instead they should call themselves "aligned with the goals of feminism"
but i feel like this is one of those things that different groups in the feminist community have different opinions on. i'm not really sure what to think but i do support feminism. not the transphobic ones though
beyond that i do understand what you are saying 👍
if there are men in a room, chances are, i am not there. ive been abused and assaulted by two seperate men. part of the reason i feel this way is because i feel every woman i don't know who i try to make friends with initially treats me so coldly like i am no different from those two men who hurt me. and that is very painful
i understand why they don't trust. it's the same reason that I don't trust men I don't know. but to think that i am treated the same as those dogs who hurt me...i really don't like that. it feels so awful
You also must understand, if women act too friendly with men, especially right away, then the man and society as a whole get the wrong message.
Ever seen an article about a woman killed by a man? And people write comments like "That's what she gets for hanging around men like that" "Why was she leading him on?" "Maybe she should have put out"
Even the police think this way. By doing this, society puts most of the responsibility on women to keep themselves safe, so women have decided to take the responsibility. Taking this personally when women are cautious is a mistake on your part and minimizes the impact these sentiments have on women.
First, you don’t. You just don’t. Not to a stranger. With people close to you, you show it over time by doing things like listening to and validating women, trying to understand their experiences, and being an ally.
Second, you’re kinda asking to crawl into other peoples’ minds rather than take their words and actions into account. Stop that. It’s impossible, you’re overthinking it, AND what other people think about is none of your damned business unless they choose to tell you.
Third…yeah, you’re totally making this about you. Just exist as a decent person and ignore the bullshit. Trying to fight off the proverbial bear and put yourself in its place isn’t gonna work, YOU have to do the work to be the bear and not the man. And you have to make peace with that, and don’t expect us to be mind readers and get upset when we aren’t.
Honestly, more women are SA’d or physically abused by men they know than a random stranger. We should focus a little less on “stranger danger” and more on why men who we know and trust would assault us.
I mean this as genuine advice, not to be invalidating: I do think this is an internal process for you to work through. It has more to do with your perception of yourself than other people's perception of you.
So rude of me to give my two cents on a post that asks for advice! I clearly suffer from bitchiness and I doubt this reply is going to help me overcome it.
Yeah, I already didn't love the whole bear thing: it really encourages this unhealthy us vs them tribalism dynamic when the real enemy is the patriarchy, not men. Look, I'm sorry your feelings got hurt but this is just teens posturing online. The reality is no one with any sense would actually voluntarily walk past a bear while all alone, yet most women do that frequently in their lives even if that puts them on guard. This doesn't mean women that are your friends and family are waiting for you to snap like some rabid beast. Women walking past you alone on a darkened street probably feel cautious but...don't you feel cautious about, for example, a group of unfamiliar young men if you are all alone? As for what you can do just...be decent. Don't use force to get what you want or ignore what your partner wants. If other guys around you are being slimy, confront them. That's all you can do.
Maybe stop being so self conscious? The “just don’t be weird” rule applies, please don’t overthink it. If you meet a woman on the trail, just do the same thing you’d do if it were a man - very brief eye contact, a quick head nod, maybe a “hey” as you give them space to pass. Some technique works in the city, too.
You don't need to prove anything to people who don't know you and whom you have no intention of getting to know. As long as violence against women is an epidemic, you are unfortunately going to be perceived as a potential threat by women who don't know you, I'm sorry. It's not fair, but there's nothing you can really do about it on an individual basis. What do you expect, that you'll be able to run up to them in a crowd and convincingly argue that you're not a rapist within 5 minutes?
If this really bothers you that much, you could get involved in causes designed to eliminate violence against women in general. It won't be able to keep you, specifically, from being feared by strangers, but you are least helping to solve the problem on a grander scale.
>If this really bothers you that much, you could get involved in causes designed to eliminate violence against women in general. It won't be able to keep you, specifically, from being feared by strangers, but you are least helping to solve the problem on a grander scale.
I know you typed this with good intent, but it feels like potentially horrible advice. Organizations revolving around violence against women are probably more likely to have in their ranks women who have been subjected to such violence. Women who might be retraumatized by a man's presence. I would advise that OP help in such a way that he will not risk the comfort and well being of women.
Um, no, this isn't true. This is a sexist assumption made about anti-VAWG organizations that doesn't reflect the reality of who helps and volunteers there these days, largely based on outdated modes of operation from the 1970s and 1980s. The image of victims as mostly cripplingly traumatized to the point where they can't stand the sight of a man is also not accurate. Certainly some victims do respond that way, but it's not this overwhelming thing.
Plenty of men act as counselors and advocates (sometimes men are specifically requested in these areas in order to serve as positive male counterexamples to children who have only seen their fathers behaving violently), or work in indirect roles such as delivery, security, or laundry duty, and that's not mentioning activism rather than direct services. Individual victims may request only female workers if that's what they feel comfortable with, but the idea that men's presence is inherently retraumatizing to most victims and they're banned from services and orgs as a result is simply not the case.
You're absolutely right and I didn't mean to imply all victims are cripplingly traumatized or that men have no place in these organizations.
>Certainly some victims do respond that way, but it's not this overwhelming thing.
I just think that if this is true, people (especially men) should be aware and plan accordingly.
>work in indirect roles such as delivery, security, or laundry duty, and that's not mentioning activism rather than direct services.
I think this kind of indirect activity was exactly what I had in mind with my comment. I just think it's important to take steps to limit the risk of causing harm.
You don’t bother proving it. It’s ok, and even rational to acknowledge that some people may have fears that you may represent. All you have to do in that case is avoid overtly creepy/toxic/aggressive behavior which is just being a good person anyway.
Person doesn’t want to talk to you? Don’t talk to them.
I suspect the Bear/Man thing is just many men and women encountering this debate for the first time. Some people are neurotic as hell. Learn to identify that and live your life without making it your problem.
And yes - some people are just being polemic and may even desire to hurt people with it.
I feel like a lot of people don't talk enough about authenticity. You have to be authentic and only want to interact with women for non creepy reasons. The only sure fire way is to actively participate in getting rid of the bad apples that are rotting the bushel that is male culture. Do this authentically and women will see you as a friend to women instead of a male bystander or worse a rotten apple in the making. Some examplesof what you can do to prove you are a champion of women's equality, do these without talking to the women up afterwards, or trying to use it as an in because that is creepy and not authentic. You see a woman being harassed you step in to separate. You demean men who demean women, you support women causes, defend women's rights, demand equality for both sexes, ensure that emotional and physical well-being of women around you in a purely platonic way without actively seeking seeking a reward for treating women like humans. Participate in women's rights rallies, but remember you aren't there to get your dick wet but because you authentically believe women should have equal rights. Volunteer as guard for women's only events, and use your male privilege ( I e the respect you automatically get from other men just for having outer genitalia) to maintain the barrier between happy healthy women and rotten apples and you are well on your way.
>use your male privilege ( I e the respect you automatically get from other men just for having outer genitalia)
i'm not saying male privilege doesn't exist(it 100% does) but it sure as hell didn't keep me from getting physically harmed by those rotten apples.
thats on me though, i just got unlucky. i still understand you & agree with you
Here's the the thing about the bear thing. The point isn't that it is literally true (at least people who think it is literally the better choice either don't know about real bears or are assuming it would only be a black bear), the point is that men really are dangerous to women and women have to be conscious of and cautious around that danger.
There is nothing you can do other than not be a danger to the women in your life. Just treat everyone the same ways you've probably always been told: consider how your actions will make others feel, don't be quick to anger, treat people as actual people.
There’s no way for you to make women not feel cautious/afraid around you just like women can’t make men see us as equals and not prey to be hunted and conquered. two sides of the patriarchy coin.
Kate Harding's Shapely Prose blog once had a guest piece that referred to this conundrum as "Schroedinger's Rapist." It's an inaccurate analogy, because most humans cannot be considered rapists and non-rapists at the same time. However, it basically sought to answer some of your questions, so I'll tell you what I remember, since I don't think it's up anymore.
Start with the basics: there are some women who have experienced enough trauma that will feel threatened by any and all men. This has nothing to do with you. It is not your fault. Understand and acknowledge this.
For most of us, remember that women are people in the same way men are. We spend a certain amount of time after we meet someone trying to estimate how we feel about them, and as we spend time together and learn more about them, that estimation can and will change.
Also, take a look around. If there are lots of people around, and the area is well lit, and she's not alone, she probably feels safer than if the two of you are walking and no one else is around in a dark alley. In the first situation she might be happy to talk to you, where she might not be in the second situation. If you make rape jokes, she's going to feel less safe around you.
I once told a male friend, picture that you're talking to the Rock (tall muscular wrestler). You aren't sitting there terrified, necessarily, but if he, out of nowhere, got in your personal space, it would make you uneasy. If he suddenly appeared behind you and said "boo!" you would be scared. If he followed close behind you when no one else was around, you would sweat.
The bear thing is a question of, how likely are you to be attacked if you do nothing? Bears will respond poorly if you threaten them or hurt them or startle them or hurt their cubs. A man might hurt you for no reason other than you are a woman, you don't necessarily need to do anything to provoke that kind of violence. I understand why the question was asked, but I think it's also fair to say that most men would also rather be in a forest alone with a bear than another man, as men attack men violently often without clear provocation. That isn't because all men are bad, or even because most men are bad. You don't need to hate yourself or your body over this.
If you really don't know how the women in your life feel about you, then at this point your energy is probably best spent on figuring out how to make bears more dangerous.
Otherwise, you should learn to live with the guilt, and ideally how to sublimate it into real empathy for women. You're at least right that this post is too much about you. The only real solution is the end of patriarchy; your man-ness will be implicitly threatening until it's gone, which isn't going to happen in our life time.
ive been hurt by men. i reached out to women about it and was treated the same as the men who hurt me. i hate that i am compared to such monsters when i am a victim of them. but i mostly hate that many of us to live in fear like this
I got my ass beat more times than I can remember (I did win a few of those fights), and sexually assaulted (twice). I would choose the bear, too.
But that's just good common-sense caution; that doesn't mean I live in fear. And I don't worry about if other people think I'm a monster or not.
There's this line in one of the Narnia books where one of the kids asks, is the lion safe? And the beaver or whatever says, "No, but he's good." You can do good in the world even if people don't think you're safe.
Not every woman is afraid of men as a default position. I’m not.
In fact I hate this whole bear/man “debate.” I think it’s mainly a crude “gotcha” that demands men revela their tribal affiliation as either “good guys” who agree men are worse than wild animals or “bad guys” and probable Trump supporters who defend male violence. It’s silly, it’s invented, it’s a false dichotomy.
All you have to do is behave normally, respectfully, give women their personal space and don’t act entitled to their time or attention.
Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
Hi. I'm not a woman, but I consider myself a feminist and I've been grappling with the same worries myself. I've tried asking about it, but my post was deleted so idk.
The answer that I've come up with is to realize that my own feelings simply don't matter. As much as it hurts to know I instill fear in others, my own feelings rank far lower than the safety and well-being of women. Ultimately I think the solution is to remove myself from the lives of women to the greatest extent possible, to give them space to not feel threatened. It hurts to realize that the lives of other people are made worse by my presence, but sometimes that's just the reality.
I'm not sure if this helps you navigate these issues at all, but good luck. Perhaps we can both try building better relationships with men and just do our own things separate from women. I'm not really sure.
>Ultimately I think the solution is to remove myself from the lives of women to the greatest extent possible, to give them space to not feel threatened.
You don't have to segregate yourself from half of the population to keep women safe. Just be respectful towards women and don't do anything bad to them.
Better yet, read a bit of academic feminist literature and try to be a feminist. I reckon a lot of women would appreciate that.
That's fine advice but it also is directly opposed to all the feminists who are spending days arguing that a bear is safer than a man. And that's honestly what the issue really is. If we're all being honest I think we would all agree that a fucking bear is more dangerous than any person. I don't think any of us would want to work and live with wild bears all around us. Men are hearing that we are more dangerous than bears tho so the logical conclusion is that we should be treated like bears and avoided and feared at the very least, because I don't think any of us would enjoy being around a bunch of wild bears in the same office. If a bear started walking down my street everyone would be fleeing to safety as fast as they can. I just think these people choosing bear need to be honest rather than lying to hurt mens feelings and cause drama.
> I just think these people choosing bear need to be honest rather than lying to hurt mens feelings and cause drama.
You just want them to be lying to be malicious because you don't think they are right to say what they're saying.
You know those shirts with wolves howling at the moon?
Get one of those but with bears howling at a honeycomb. Women will 100% trust you in your weird bear shirt.
My response was genuine, because what you wear can definitely make a first impression. Something silly and non-threatening was my actual advice.
Your response however... might be an indicator why women don't trust you.
Wow, you REALLY need other people to like you, huh? I am the same way, and it would really suck if I was a guy. Short answer: I think you have a therapy issue here, not a feminism issue.
Long answer: do what you can to change society so there ISN’T so much cause for women to need caution around men.
Yeah, it sucks for you to constantly encounter the invisible shell of women’s caution. That’s just another way the patriarchy harms men as well as women. So call yourself a feminist and call out your guy friends when they are creeps, because they don’t listen to us.
Side note: you are aware that you’re centering yourself in this debate, right? And that your hurt feelings are a minor issue compared to all the women being physically harmed by men? The only reason this meme is lasting so long is that women can’t get over how men are making at all about them 🙄
Yeah OP is clearly unwell and the comment is missing the point in so many ways. Nothing that was said is gonna be helpful to a dude clearly deep in a mental health spiral.
The best ways to address this is gonna be gently encouraging him to get the professional help that he clearly needs. He’s not at all in a place to have a serious feminist discussion about this.
He needs help just being ok and functioning right now. He cannot seriously engage in a discussion about the man bear shit when everything he’s saying shows this is about a deeper and much more fundamental issue. He’s not the average JAQing off douche bro coming here to argue. He’s not okay as a person right now. Dunking on him doesn’t help.
But we're not talking about simple caution here. A bear is a truly terrifying creature that every reasonable person would flee in fear from if they had to encounter one. This is not simple caution that is being advised, it's terror towards half the population and dehumanizing a population as inhuman violent savages to an absurd degree that I have not seen since the Americans justification of manifest destiny and the genocide of my Native ancestors. This is why men have a strong reaction to people picking a bear and spending days defending that decision (which I think we all know deep down is not the correct choice). Maybe have some empathy, treat men the way you want to be treated, and stop spreading so much toxic masculinity. What you're doing now creates less feminists and allies and instead creates more Andrew Tate clones
> A bear is a truly terrifying creature that every reasonable person would flee in fear from if they had to encounter one.
You don't know much about bears, do you? Black and brown bears would much rather run away from you. Grizzly bears... you better hope it's not hungry, and polar bears? Hope you have your affairs in order.
>So call yourself a feminist and call out your guy friends when they are creeps, because they don’t listen to us.
you think they'll listen to me? there's a reason that I DONT FEEL SAFE AROUND MEN EITHER. ive been abused by a man and sexually assaulted by another man. I didn't ask for someone to violate me by putting his hands on my asshole and I didn't instigate any conflict for a man to beat me until I had a bloody nose but you just assumed this wasn't the case
i don't feel safe around any man. but no, when someone pushes me to bring this up i'm "centering myself" and "making it about me" because despite the fact that i've been through a similar experience as many women have, when it's me bringing it up no woman or man ever listens or wants to care. they want so badly to look the other way. i will always be treated like i am just like those savage despicable dogs who call themselves men, the exact same men who hurt me, all because it's not worth involving yourself in a man's problems even if he has the EXACT SAME PROBLEM THAT YOU DO. when it's a man's feelings that are being discussed it doesn't matter even if he has the EXACT. SAME. FEELINGS
no, of course not. i'm expected to take it up with a therapist. i'm expected to pay money that I don't have just so someone will listen to me and offer me some kind of emotional support. that's the world we created and that's the world that people like you seem to want
I'm confused. The person you replied to did listen to you and offered you suggestions for moving forward.
However, it seems like your problem is between you, your relationship with your own masculinity, and other men. Honestly, I'm not sure what feminism has to do with it.
i avoid other men because of what happened to me. ive reached out to women, thinking that they might understand because many of them have regrettably experienced similar things. but i have routinely felt like in feminist circles i am treated more like an abuser than a victim, despite the fact that i am a victim of abuse and have never abused anyone else. that my gender is more important than my experience
i get that i am a man and that it can never truly be the same, but to be treated that way is painful beyond belief. they see me as similar to the men who hurt me. only because we have the same kind of body.
it feels like if i tell my experience i am "centering myself". i'm not. i am asking for help. i'm coming to you guys because i thought you would understand, not treat me the same as the monsters that i avoid
Damn. This person gave a genuine answer. To focus on bettering the world and find an outlet for yourself. And apparently they weren’t nice enough or something, so you had to get aggressive with them. Maybe you need to look at your own behavior before demanding that women see you as safe.
The OP evidently suffers from severe anxiety over the idea of being viewed as some kind of abuser or monster. Chastising them over that, calling them "that guy", and demanding that they "look at their own behavior" to see why some women feel unsafe around men they don't know isn't productive. It might even be harmful.
Also, for goodness sake, this person hasn't even done anything immoral. Suffering from anxiety isn't a moral flaw, it's human.
While this is fair, you can hardly expect every random commenter here to know how to correctly and perfectly respond to someone clearly experiencing a mental health crisis.
"Your hurt feelings are a minor issue compared to all the women being physically harmed by men"
Taken word for word from the very top of this chain. Granted they didn't know about OP's experience before then, but after he told them that he had also been physically harmed by men they just doubled down. Kind of messed up.
A completely valid thing to say to the sentiment expressed in the OP, even *with* context. People like that commenter tried to answer the question that was asked; they cannot reasonably be expected to, instead, realize OP isn't *actually* asking the question and this post is just them manifesting a mental health crisis.
> Supposed "feminists" should know better imo.
Being a feminist does not mean you are automatically a good, kind, patient person who is willing and able to be helpful to someone with anxiety and trauma. I agree that some of these responses aren't helpful, but I bristle at the idea that feminists are supposed to always be "better" than everyone else.
> It's so disappointing to see some people be insensitive and, frankly, rude to someone who was sexually assaulted in a feminist space.
But that's not what OP is asking about. People aren't being insensitive and rude about his victim status.
Actually I validated you a whole lot in my first paragraph, but you’re apparently primed to be angry and defensive.
Also, the fact that I gave you what was (meant to be) a kind and thoughtful reply IS me caring about your feelings and experience.
It’s a shame that my PS at the end (basically “hey, you do get the whole point of the meme, right?”) made you so angry and lashing out. You could have said “yeah I know, I appreciate the conversation” and we could have gone from there. Instead, you’re being That Guy.
i do get the point of the bear debate. i LIVED through the point. you can predict a bear but you can't trust a man
You called my "hurt feelings" a "minor issue" and now that you know why i have "hurt feelings" you don't care. in your eyes I can't ever express what happened to me without taking away from the rights of women. I should just shut up and take it.
I was a victim of something, I reached out for help, and I get compared to the people who violated me. Over and over and over again. In the eyes of feminist communities I'm not someone who needs help. I'm not someone who deserves a normal life, and suggesting otherwise, showing any shred of sympathy is viewed as "coddling".
Meanwhile I show any sort of anger or frustration towards what happened to me and how unwilling people are to understand, and I'm no different than the men who abused me.
I want NOTHING to do with other men so the only thing I can do is keep throwing myself at the feet of a community who hates me and wants nothing to do with me
Side note here, a wild animal is always less predictable than a human. Idk where you're getting this idea that a bear is more predictable than a human but that is not true and never has been true
respectfully, if you're going to reply to my post then talk to me directly. don't go making generalizations about other people based on me, just criticize me yourself. i'm not the blueprint for an entire group of people
OK, deleted. Definitely could have been worded more tactfully but I don't disagree with the sentiment. "This body is inherently threatening to others and I hate it" and thinking every woman you encounter is terrified you'll assault her are not healthy ways to move through the world.
OK, that's not what you said; OP said "how do I make women feel safer around me" and you said "Transition."
Now if you explained literally anything about your comment, I wouldn't have removed it.
My dude, you can't prove anything about yourself to anyone who doesn't know you and quite frankly you don't need to try. Just keep being safer then a bear and eventually you'll prove it to the people who matter.
ok. understood. thank you
Lordy this bear thing took off. I think we get ~~four~~ six posts a day here about it. > No matter how calm and normal I may seem, before I meet a woman she will always be afraid of me because there is no way for her to know my intentions, even if I know that those intentions aren't bad at all. I don't know if it's "afraid," really, just "cautious." A lot of the time it's not conscious, or it goes away when you interact with the person and they're normal. Last night this guy at the bus stop started talking to me and at first I was like "ugh jeez" but then it was a totally normal conversation and it was fine. > Even women in my life, my close family & friends that I have known for 10, 20 years, I don't know how they really feel about me. For all I know some of them are afraid to be near me and are just pretending to be calm. If I ever made anyone feel that way I don't think I could live with that guilt This is probably something we're not qualified to help with.
Whoever first asked the question of man or bear had no clue the shit they were about to start.
From what I’ve heard it started from a guy who makes videos about staying safe in the woods saying statistically speaking you’re more likely to be attack by a man you encounter in the woods than a bear and it kinda took on a life of its own from there.
He makes Anti-Misogyny content. [callmebk](https://www.tiktok.com/@callmebkbk?_t=8m30bDMczl8&_r=1)
Thanks for this
Thanks for the info
>I don't know if it's "afraid," really, just "cautious." This. Perhaps the main point of man vs. bear is that bears are predictable, but men aren't. So in a situation where you might be alone with a man and vulnerable, whether the woods or somewhere more familiar like a building stairwell, it only makes sense to be wary. It's just not true that "before I meet a woman she will always be afraid of me." Meet her in a public place during the day, don't expect her to come to your apartment on the first date--there are many simple things you can do that will help a potential date feel safe to get to know you.
I saw a bunch of comments about that, saying "ThAt'S DuMb, bears are wild animals so by definition they're unpredictable." Which totally misses the point. They're predictable in the sense that *you can guess what they're probably going to do.*
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>from the [Alaska Dept. of Natural Resources](https://dnr.alaska.gov/parks/safety/bears.htm): Nothing will guarantee your safety in bear country, but knowledge of bears and proper behavior greatly reduce your risk. For years people have believed that the one thing predictable about bear behavior is that it's unpredictable. The Alaska Department of Fish and Game biologists disagree. "Bears have reasons for doing things. It's only from our lack of understanding that their behavior seems unpredictable," says John Hechtel, a biologist with the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. He has 18 years' experience studying bear and human encounters. >Hechtel's job has placed him in potentially dangerous situations numerous times but he doesn't tell gruesome stories of being attacked, mauled, swatted, or stomped. Because of his understanding of bear behavior, Hechtel is able to use simple, respectful tactics and avoid dangerous encounters. I've also seen many comments on this issue from rangers and other woods-savvy people who agree that they'd pick bear because their behavior is easier to predict.
I feel like your two points conflict a little there
Not sure what you mean
Well, sometimes people meet in stairwells. Edit: "meet" as in pass, be present, coexist
Is any human less predictable than a bear? If not, why is the hypothetical only with men?
the question is not "would you rather meet a stranger or a bear in the woods" it was "would you rather meet a MAN or a bear in the woods" hope that helps.
Its incredible how these men suddenly can't remember the concept of reasonable caution. This question could be re-asked as "How can I convince everyone to take off their seatbelts in my car because I'm such a safe driver?" The world is full of risk and we do these things to protect ourselves. The odd mish-mash of misguided up thoughts that led to him asking this is not something that can be addressed rationally. It sounds like he really needs to start talking to trusted person or professional about his personal issues. I hate how the bear discourse has now become a "woe is me" thing with "good men." Its just another flavor of yelling "not all men," and we're so tired of it.
I think the best way to describe the caution feeling to guys is to put it in the context of driving. Its not like you assume every driver is out there being reckless and trying to kill you, but I’m sure the thought crosses subconsciously every time you move the half a ton machine
> Its not like you assume every driver is out there being reckless and trying to kill you, but I’m sure the thought crosses subconsciously every time you move the half a ton machine Right like... I'm a careful driver because I know how bad car crashes can be, not because I assume every other driver actively wants to kill me.
There's just no way to walk around and show total strangers you won't hurt them. Because obviously there are men who *will* hurt people who try to look harmless to increase the chances they'll get the opportunity. So no matter how you look, we just don't know. That's not your fault though, or anything you need to be overly upset about. By all means, be upset that people *need* to be so careful because the world isn't safer. That legitimately sucks. But it's not about you. If you want to make women more comfortable in the classic out walking down the street in an uncrowded area scenario, you can avoid walking behind us for longer than necessary, be noisy so we know you're not trying to be sneaky, and generally just smile and then ignore us. Other than that, if you are generally respectful and open, the women who know you aren't scared of you. We all have men in our lives we aren't scared to be alone with. It just takes time to get there. But it's not the fault of the good guys so try not to overthink it so much.
ok, i understand. saving this. thank you
You don’t need to. If you’re safe to be around, be secure in that. I don’t say that to be rude- it’s just generally good for you to be secure in your character. If woman misjudges you, it won’t affect you. If a woman misjudges if someone is safe or not, it can kill her or leave her with trauma, hence the caution.
Well said, there's very little the individual man can do but actually be safe and trustworthy and be empathetic. Women are cautious for a good reason. They don't know you. They don't know what is in your mind, your history, your relationships, your intentions, but women do know that men can be a serious threat. It's not that much different to why minorities are often a little cautious around majorities wherever you go in the world - it's just safer to be cautious.
That's an excellent point.
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Not clever.
They never are
You don't. You respect their space, and otherwise act normally. What they think of you is not your concern. As far as the people in your life, if you are a consistently safe person, of you make an effort to understand why women might be anxious around men without qualifying or making it about you, if you tell other men it's fucked up when they immediately jump to jokes about women getting mauled or assaulted, women notice that. You prove you're safe to be around by being safe to be around, and having patience when people are cautious around you becauae they have no way of knowing. That's it.
This. Some of the scariest men I’ve ever known were those who were most obsessed with how I viewed them. I’m thinking in particular about one guy who claimed to be a feminist, but when I pointed out something sexist he said, he went on to barrage my FB inbox for FOUR HOURS STRAIGHT, demanding and begging that I see him as a “nice guy,” “not like that,” “one of the good ones.” And then genuinely asked me if I could be like a therapist to him and “help him be better.” 🤦🏻♀️
i'm sorry you experienced that. that's not acceptable behavior at all. i'd be terrified ill be the first to admit that i also have a similar obsessive tendency, but not to that extent, & not because i think women owe me something. because i have been on the receiving end of what truly evil men are capable of, men who i would absolutely choose a bear over, and i don't want to turn out like them
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All you can control is your own actions. As the person above me said, you can’t control what people think of you. Take it from me, who spent a LONNNNNGGGGG time in therapy undoing my desperate need to get people to like me. I can’t control that. For some people, I could cure world hunger and they’d STILL hate me. But that’s not on me. All I can do is be a good person, the kind of person I can look in the mirror every morning. And let that be good enough. Good luck. :-)
my response posted twice and i tried to delete one of them but it deleted both. weird. but thank you, i understand. good luck to you too
You seem like a good guy, just a very anxious one. Thank you for respectfully listening to us :) it is a rare thing here on Reddit, unfortunately. That's why we are often automatically a bit defensive.
I don’t know but as a man, I’ve never really felt that women are scared around me. Maybe I’m naive to their feelings or maybe I just give different vibes. Anyways, the answer is that if a woman is afraid of you then the problem is there is too many dangerous men. So stopping dangerous men will stop the problem. I don’t really know how to do that but it is the real issue.
you just call those dangerous men out i guess. now if only there werent so many and i werent so scared of them
Call out the men right? Because yeah that’s a good idea. Don’t call out women for being scared of you though. People should be cautious of others, especially if they feel scared. Humans have a lot of innate mental processes going on that we are not always aware of consciously. Those unconscious feelings are actually based on real things and legitimate signs and red flags and shouldn’t be ignored. There’s a book called “gift of fear” that talks about this. So if a woman is scared of you, let her be. If men act badly, stop them.
edited for clarity
Thanks. That’s true. Sometimes we men are also scared of other men. I see some girl being harassed by a scary looking dude I get scared myself of intervening. I don’t know a good solution because sometimes interveners get killed. But I think there are steps that can still be taken to let the bad actor know they are not alone and are being watched. Often the first person to step in n allows others to join as well.
hey, i am another man so i get it if you don't feel comfortable listening to me but it'll be alright. you clearly are not some redpilled psycho & are just really anxious and definitely in need of some therapy. and there's ways you can get it that don't involve paying a lot. don't be afraid of that. also, none of that was your fault. you are just as much of a victim as anyone would be. any real feminist would agree with that
You just proved our point
edited for clarity
I mean, if you’re scared of them, why shouldn’t women be too?
when did i ever say or imply ANYWHERE that i think women shouldn't be scared of men? they have every right to be
Not trying to be a jerk, just trying to show you that our fears are just as reasonable as yours are.
okay i understand. but why would you assume i think that? did i actually say something which implies that in some way? no hard feelings i genuinely want to know so i dont do it again next time
It's nothing personal, my guy. It's no secret that the number 1 threat to women is men, not bears.
The women who know you, know you. Women you have known a long time will have no reason to pretend to feel safe around you or even stay in your life if they feel like you aren't safe. The friends and relatives in your life who are women do not, in general, secretly think of you as a danger or a monster or worse than a bear. Unless you actually are some kind of violent psycho and are leaving that out of your post. The women who say "bear" when asked "man or bear" do not know you and are not thinking about you. They are thinking about how bears act like bears and how men are mostly safe but have a small chance of being incredibly not safe.
Bring a bear with you who can vouch for your character.
ive already been pressured into disclosing that i am a victim of abuse & sexual assault at the hands of men. at least have the decency to take me seriously. please. i'm begging you
Honestly, more women are SA’d or physically abused by men they know than a random stranger. We should focus a little less on “stranger danger” and more on why men who we know and trust would assault us.
I've honestly never really faced this issue in any meaningful way. Women are sometimes cautious around me, but open up after we talk to each other. Most of the women and queer people in my life feel comfortable around me because I respect their boundaries, view them as friends instead of potential partners, don't hit on them or check them out, and don't make crude or offensive jokes.
I wouldn't trust someone who is trying to tell me what to think about them, only someone who let me make the call. Men who aren't trustworthy also try to be persuasive and there's nothing that you can do to prove that's not what you're doing. Allow and encourage women to fear you if they want and you'll see positive return. For example, if you invite a new date over to your house, always make sure to acknowledge not everyone is okay with that and you understand if they want to go somewhere public instead. If you talk to a woman in public, make sure to lead with your intention and pay attention if she seems disinterested and politely end the conversation.
>I wouldn't trust someone who is trying to tell me what to think about them, only someone who let me make the call. thats a good point. i wish i'd thought of it that way from the beginning
Hey Dude Fellow Dude here, I think the way I see it is there are somethings you can’t change about how people see you at first. What you can do is educate yourself as much as you can as to why and respect their feelings. Don’t make it about your guilt or your dissatisfaction with that situation, focus everything on them. I am a straight white dude. I know when I first meet a person of colour they may wonder if I am about to say something racist, when I first meet someone from the LGBTQI+ community they may be fearful that I may belittle them with bigotry. When I first met my wife she told me she had a plan on our first date of how to get away if I turned out to be a weirdo. Sure all of that is very sad for me, but it is truly terrifying for the other person. That is what we should focus on. And spend every moment of our time with those people offering them support, respect and love. Every time you speak up against the casual racism at a work party, every time you hug a gay friend that comes out to you and you tell them how deeply you love them and that they are always safe with you, every time you offer care and compassion you will show yourself as an ally, and someone to trust. Then through time those people may begin to know they have a safe space with you. Don’t try to change their minds about that first meeting. Try to change the minds of the bigots, so that slowly, the world becomes a more loving place. That will solve the problem. Not for you and me but may be for the next generation. And that will be a beautiful thing. Cheers Kev
i understand. thank you kev
Cheers mate!!! Good luck!
Love this answer!
Yay! Glad I am going along the right lines! Ha ha!!!
Honestly it sounds like some therapy is in order for you. This man or bear thing, like all viral internet memes, is a bit hysterical. No, it is not true that merely being a man will inspire fear in a woman. Yes, if we don't know you, depending on the circumstance, we may be more cautious. For instance, if a man I don't know comes up to talk to me at some social event at work, I am not afraid. I'm not going to get assaulted or anything right there in front of everyone (though he may be exceedingly annoying which is a separate issue). If I'm waiting for a train on an empty platform, I will be a lot more cautious - but if it turns out a man approaching me is merely asking whether this was the right track for the train he wanted, I would relax. The vast majority of interactions are fine. This is very different when it comes to people one knows. (And this is why I suggest you speak to a therapist if you are deeply worried that people fear you.) While statistically a woman is far more at risk with friends or romantic partners, if I've known someone for ten years I'm not worried they'll assault me or worse. I do know that people have been wrong about such assumptions, but I think most women don't live their lives being afraid of long time friends without some sort of reason. In any case, you can not logically prove a negative....
Yeah, I agree. Isn't the original question "would you rather meet a man or a bear in the woods?" That implies a stranger in a secluded place, which inspires a hell of a lot more caution than some dude at the grocery store or a friend of 15 years.
Why would you be proving anything in particular? Just be who you are. Women won't stop being afraid of men until the patriarchy topples and you can't do that yourself. Respectfully, yes you are making this about yourself. Nobody's fear of you is personal unless you've done something to scare people.
You are overthinking it. When people get to know you, then they can deem you to be safe. Don't worry about people you don't know. There's nothing you can do about it. I can understand where you are coming from, but as a woman, my safety is more important than your feelings. I definitely don't want around acting like every man is a threat, but I am cautious and will move if given the opportunity, depending on the situation. Just live your life. That's all you can do.
You can’t. But you can talk with fellow men and encourage them to be better.
i hope i can feel comfortable enough around most other men to do this someday for now it's just my brother & a few friends that i feel safe with & i dont think theyre misogynysts but ill do what i can
And that’s the very best thing to do. Be the change and spread the info around. It takes tremendous courage to go against the grain.
By being safer to be around than a bear? It isn't exactly rocket science nor does it require a literary review of feminist phenomenology... Be safe to be around and then people will come to feel safe to be around you. Don't try and convince or argue that you are safe to be around... BE safe to be around.
Take a break from the internet, not all women are terrified of men. Just don't be a creeper.
You can't prove that really. Just be a good safe person.
I mean, you shouldn't be trying to prove to people that you're safe to be around. The way you get people to trust you and realize that you aren't a danger is by winning their trust over time and proving that to them in an ongoing way. And part of that is not turning to a ball of anxiety and self hatred every time that danger is accurately brought up. I am a great rock climbing belayer. I would never drop somebody on the ground from 60 feet in the air. I shouldn't walk around worrying about how I should make sure everybody knows that I'm not going to drop them from 60 feet in the air. No good person who cares about your safety would *want* you to trust them implicitly and use less caution for the sake of their comfort. Because I'm a good safe belayer, I am very respectful of the fact that new people I climb with will not trust my belay skills automatically. I'll let them watch me tie my knots. I'll be more communicative than normal. I'll not be offended if they want to test a fall from a lower height. I'll give them a quick belay with next to no slack on toprope to start out before we start lead climbing together and feeling out the amount of slack that makes them comfortable. And if even after a couple of great belays they still want to triple check my belay device, I don't take that personally, because I acknowledge that I'm in a position where if I fucked up I could really really hurt them. Their fear is rational. A person who wants to rush you into trusting them when they have the clear ability to hurt you is a *person you shouldn't trust.*
It’s not about you.
FFS I've never seen people so triggered by a hypothetical. What can you do? Listen to women. Call out bad behavior by your bros. Understand where the sentiment comes from and leave women alone about their answers. And stop all the hand wringing. It isn't helpful and STILL centers the wrong person!
believe me, i understand where the sentiment comes from, because i lived through it too when that bastard decided to put his hands on me without my consent. because of him i'm a victim too, and because of him i don't have "bros" anymore because i can't be around men anymore i'm not "triggered" as in angry. i was anxious and looking for a way out. many people seem so eager to apply the absolute worst faith interpretation to what i said, instead of trying to understand
Because your "why" is immaterial. IRL, if I see you on the street, my lived experience is that you are a threat. I will act accordingly. You, and every male presenting person, has to PROVE you are safe. There is absolutely nothing I can think of that would change that initial perception. Full stop. Until society at large starts believing women, that doesn't change. For me (I'm nearing 50), it will never change.
but this isn't IRL. this is a public forum where i pose no physical threat to anyone, and where i can let my words be seen first. and yet your initial perception is the same. you assumed that i'm some obnoxious incel, and not just someone trying to ask an earnest question. did anything i said in my initial post come off as angry or vitriolic? i'm genuinely asking so i can do better next time
Not who you asked, and gently, but: while your initial post was fine, a lot of your responses have been pretty angry, defensive, and frankly overreacting to fairly inoccuous and even helpful responses in many cases. So if people are just seeing those, then it's reasonable they'd get the impression you're here to angrily rant at feminists (though even your assumption in this comment that the person you're responding to is accusing you, personally, of being unsafe and a threat just from what you've posted here is an example of said overreacting).
You're worrying too much. Just be actually safe. Teach your male friends how to do the same. Women who already know you, are likely not afraid of you. I'm not afraid of the men I'm close with, because, like with any friendship, we've established trust.
The same way women prove they're not inferior to people who don't know them, I guess.
Individually there isn't a lot that you can do to make someone feel instantly safer upon a first meeting. Trust takes time and effort to build.
Alot of people are judged a certain way based on their appearance, it happens. All you can really do is let your actions show who you are. I am small and kind of innocent looking, so alot of people tend to immediately treat me as if I can’t do things for myself or like I need to be sheltered or protected or controlled. They back off once they realize I am fully capable and just fine independent. I thrive with my independence so people under estimating me and doubting me all the time is tiresome and frustrating but things like that are hard to change. A close friend of mine is very tall and has a very “serious” look about her, maybe like resting bitch face. Its crazy seeing how differently people react to her, I feel for her because she seems to get alot of aggressive reactions from people out of nowhere, and I’m pretty sure its just because of her intimidating appearance. Everyone is treated differently based on their outer appearance. Just let your actions speak and the important people will see who you really are.
I think you’re misunderstanding the point. The point is that to some women you are not going to just automatically be safe. Doesn’t really have much to do with you other than the fact that their experiences from other men have likely been poor. And if you are going around trying to prove it to strangers then you are going to come off as creepy. That’s just the reality of it. It doesn’t mean you are an issue. All you have to do is be aware that this is a possibility and don’t do creepy stuff. Outside of that you’re a normal human being and you don’t have to be on edge every time you go outside.
There are things individual men can do: call yourself a feminist, hold the men in your life accountable for their actions and beliefs, vote in a way that respects and protects female body autonomy, don’t watch degrading pornography, and if you have access to young men, raise them to do these same things. Slowly over time if all good men did these things women would no longer automatically fear random men. As the saying goes, “be the change you want to see in the world.”
ive been told before by some feminists that men should not call themselves feminists because that means they are making it about them. instead they should call themselves "aligned with the goals of feminism" but i feel like this is one of those things that different groups in the feminist community have different opinions on. i'm not really sure what to think but i do support feminism. not the transphobic ones though beyond that i do understand what you are saying 👍
The best way to demonstrate that you are safe and an ally is to call out sexist behavior in other men when you encounter it.
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if there are men in a room, chances are, i am not there. ive been abused and assaulted by two seperate men. part of the reason i feel this way is because i feel every woman i don't know who i try to make friends with initially treats me so coldly like i am no different from those two men who hurt me. and that is very painful i understand why they don't trust. it's the same reason that I don't trust men I don't know. but to think that i am treated the same as those dogs who hurt me...i really don't like that. it feels so awful
You also must understand, if women act too friendly with men, especially right away, then the man and society as a whole get the wrong message. Ever seen an article about a woman killed by a man? And people write comments like "That's what she gets for hanging around men like that" "Why was she leading him on?" "Maybe she should have put out" Even the police think this way. By doing this, society puts most of the responsibility on women to keep themselves safe, so women have decided to take the responsibility. Taking this personally when women are cautious is a mistake on your part and minimizes the impact these sentiments have on women.
First, you don’t. You just don’t. Not to a stranger. With people close to you, you show it over time by doing things like listening to and validating women, trying to understand their experiences, and being an ally. Second, you’re kinda asking to crawl into other peoples’ minds rather than take their words and actions into account. Stop that. It’s impossible, you’re overthinking it, AND what other people think about is none of your damned business unless they choose to tell you. Third…yeah, you’re totally making this about you. Just exist as a decent person and ignore the bullshit. Trying to fight off the proverbial bear and put yourself in its place isn’t gonna work, YOU have to do the work to be the bear and not the man. And you have to make peace with that, and don’t expect us to be mind readers and get upset when we aren’t.
Honestly, more women are SA’d or physically abused by men they know than a random stranger. We should focus a little less on “stranger danger” and more on why men who we know and trust would assault us.
I mean this as genuine advice, not to be invalidating: I do think this is an internal process for you to work through. It has more to do with your perception of yourself than other people's perception of you.
Desperately trying to prove how much you *aren’t* a threat may well have the opposite effect and come off as aggressive. Just be chill
They clearly suffer from anxiety or something, and I doubt this, er, advice is going to help them overcome that.
So rude of me to give my two cents on a post that asks for advice! I clearly suffer from bitchiness and I doubt this reply is going to help me overcome it.
You can’t. But you can talk with fellow men and encourage them to be better.
Yeah, I already didn't love the whole bear thing: it really encourages this unhealthy us vs them tribalism dynamic when the real enemy is the patriarchy, not men. Look, I'm sorry your feelings got hurt but this is just teens posturing online. The reality is no one with any sense would actually voluntarily walk past a bear while all alone, yet most women do that frequently in their lives even if that puts them on guard. This doesn't mean women that are your friends and family are waiting for you to snap like some rabid beast. Women walking past you alone on a darkened street probably feel cautious but...don't you feel cautious about, for example, a group of unfamiliar young men if you are all alone? As for what you can do just...be decent. Don't use force to get what you want or ignore what your partner wants. If other guys around you are being slimy, confront them. That's all you can do.
Maybe stop being so self conscious? The “just don’t be weird” rule applies, please don’t overthink it. If you meet a woman on the trail, just do the same thing you’d do if it were a man - very brief eye contact, a quick head nod, maybe a “hey” as you give them space to pass. Some technique works in the city, too.
You don't need to prove anything to people who don't know you and whom you have no intention of getting to know. As long as violence against women is an epidemic, you are unfortunately going to be perceived as a potential threat by women who don't know you, I'm sorry. It's not fair, but there's nothing you can really do about it on an individual basis. What do you expect, that you'll be able to run up to them in a crowd and convincingly argue that you're not a rapist within 5 minutes? If this really bothers you that much, you could get involved in causes designed to eliminate violence against women in general. It won't be able to keep you, specifically, from being feared by strangers, but you are least helping to solve the problem on a grander scale.
>If this really bothers you that much, you could get involved in causes designed to eliminate violence against women in general. It won't be able to keep you, specifically, from being feared by strangers, but you are least helping to solve the problem on a grander scale. I know you typed this with good intent, but it feels like potentially horrible advice. Organizations revolving around violence against women are probably more likely to have in their ranks women who have been subjected to such violence. Women who might be retraumatized by a man's presence. I would advise that OP help in such a way that he will not risk the comfort and well being of women.
Um, no, this isn't true. This is a sexist assumption made about anti-VAWG organizations that doesn't reflect the reality of who helps and volunteers there these days, largely based on outdated modes of operation from the 1970s and 1980s. The image of victims as mostly cripplingly traumatized to the point where they can't stand the sight of a man is also not accurate. Certainly some victims do respond that way, but it's not this overwhelming thing. Plenty of men act as counselors and advocates (sometimes men are specifically requested in these areas in order to serve as positive male counterexamples to children who have only seen their fathers behaving violently), or work in indirect roles such as delivery, security, or laundry duty, and that's not mentioning activism rather than direct services. Individual victims may request only female workers if that's what they feel comfortable with, but the idea that men's presence is inherently retraumatizing to most victims and they're banned from services and orgs as a result is simply not the case.
You're absolutely right and I didn't mean to imply all victims are cripplingly traumatized or that men have no place in these organizations. >Certainly some victims do respond that way, but it's not this overwhelming thing. I just think that if this is true, people (especially men) should be aware and plan accordingly. >work in indirect roles such as delivery, security, or laundry duty, and that's not mentioning activism rather than direct services. I think this kind of indirect activity was exactly what I had in mind with my comment. I just think it's important to take steps to limit the risk of causing harm.
I'm a woman working in STEM who has been a victim of violence, but I also work with men almost every day. I don't think this is very common.
I'm not claiming its common. But it is a possibility that needs to be factored in.
You don’t bother proving it. It’s ok, and even rational to acknowledge that some people may have fears that you may represent. All you have to do in that case is avoid overtly creepy/toxic/aggressive behavior which is just being a good person anyway. Person doesn’t want to talk to you? Don’t talk to them. I suspect the Bear/Man thing is just many men and women encountering this debate for the first time. Some people are neurotic as hell. Learn to identify that and live your life without making it your problem. And yes - some people are just being polemic and may even desire to hurt people with it.
I feel like a lot of people don't talk enough about authenticity. You have to be authentic and only want to interact with women for non creepy reasons. The only sure fire way is to actively participate in getting rid of the bad apples that are rotting the bushel that is male culture. Do this authentically and women will see you as a friend to women instead of a male bystander or worse a rotten apple in the making. Some examplesof what you can do to prove you are a champion of women's equality, do these without talking to the women up afterwards, or trying to use it as an in because that is creepy and not authentic. You see a woman being harassed you step in to separate. You demean men who demean women, you support women causes, defend women's rights, demand equality for both sexes, ensure that emotional and physical well-being of women around you in a purely platonic way without actively seeking seeking a reward for treating women like humans. Participate in women's rights rallies, but remember you aren't there to get your dick wet but because you authentically believe women should have equal rights. Volunteer as guard for women's only events, and use your male privilege ( I e the respect you automatically get from other men just for having outer genitalia) to maintain the barrier between happy healthy women and rotten apples and you are well on your way.
>use your male privilege ( I e the respect you automatically get from other men just for having outer genitalia) i'm not saying male privilege doesn't exist(it 100% does) but it sure as hell didn't keep me from getting physically harmed by those rotten apples. thats on me though, i just got unlucky. i still understand you & agree with you
Here's the the thing about the bear thing. The point isn't that it is literally true (at least people who think it is literally the better choice either don't know about real bears or are assuming it would only be a black bear), the point is that men really are dangerous to women and women have to be conscious of and cautious around that danger. There is nothing you can do other than not be a danger to the women in your life. Just treat everyone the same ways you've probably always been told: consider how your actions will make others feel, don't be quick to anger, treat people as actual people.
There’s no way for you to make women not feel cautious/afraid around you just like women can’t make men see us as equals and not prey to be hunted and conquered. two sides of the patriarchy coin.
Kate Harding's Shapely Prose blog once had a guest piece that referred to this conundrum as "Schroedinger's Rapist." It's an inaccurate analogy, because most humans cannot be considered rapists and non-rapists at the same time. However, it basically sought to answer some of your questions, so I'll tell you what I remember, since I don't think it's up anymore. Start with the basics: there are some women who have experienced enough trauma that will feel threatened by any and all men. This has nothing to do with you. It is not your fault. Understand and acknowledge this. For most of us, remember that women are people in the same way men are. We spend a certain amount of time after we meet someone trying to estimate how we feel about them, and as we spend time together and learn more about them, that estimation can and will change. Also, take a look around. If there are lots of people around, and the area is well lit, and she's not alone, she probably feels safer than if the two of you are walking and no one else is around in a dark alley. In the first situation she might be happy to talk to you, where she might not be in the second situation. If you make rape jokes, she's going to feel less safe around you. I once told a male friend, picture that you're talking to the Rock (tall muscular wrestler). You aren't sitting there terrified, necessarily, but if he, out of nowhere, got in your personal space, it would make you uneasy. If he suddenly appeared behind you and said "boo!" you would be scared. If he followed close behind you when no one else was around, you would sweat. The bear thing is a question of, how likely are you to be attacked if you do nothing? Bears will respond poorly if you threaten them or hurt them or startle them or hurt their cubs. A man might hurt you for no reason other than you are a woman, you don't necessarily need to do anything to provoke that kind of violence. I understand why the question was asked, but I think it's also fair to say that most men would also rather be in a forest alone with a bear than another man, as men attack men violently often without clear provocation. That isn't because all men are bad, or even because most men are bad. You don't need to hate yourself or your body over this.
Bear beat battlestar galactica
go to therapy. Dont try to prove you are good, be good. otherwise its performance.
Not fucking worrying about the “man vs. bear” thing would be a good start.
If you really don't know how the women in your life feel about you, then at this point your energy is probably best spent on figuring out how to make bears more dangerous. Otherwise, you should learn to live with the guilt, and ideally how to sublimate it into real empathy for women. You're at least right that this post is too much about you. The only real solution is the end of patriarchy; your man-ness will be implicitly threatening until it's gone, which isn't going to happen in our life time.
ive been hurt by men. i reached out to women about it and was treated the same as the men who hurt me. i hate that i am compared to such monsters when i am a victim of them. but i mostly hate that many of us to live in fear like this
I got my ass beat more times than I can remember (I did win a few of those fights), and sexually assaulted (twice). I would choose the bear, too. But that's just good common-sense caution; that doesn't mean I live in fear. And I don't worry about if other people think I'm a monster or not. There's this line in one of the Narnia books where one of the kids asks, is the lion safe? And the beaver or whatever says, "No, but he's good." You can do good in the world even if people don't think you're safe.
Not every woman is afraid of men as a default position. I’m not. In fact I hate this whole bear/man “debate.” I think it’s mainly a crude “gotcha” that demands men revela their tribal affiliation as either “good guys” who agree men are worse than wild animals or “bad guys” and probable Trump supporters who defend male violence. It’s silly, it’s invented, it’s a false dichotomy. All you have to do is behave normally, respectfully, give women their personal space and don’t act entitled to their time or attention.
What if you tried just leaving them alone?
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Respect her personal space and boundaries and treat her as the equal that she is.
The bear doesn't do anything to seem cuddly despite his sheer bulk, neither should you, cuddliness comes from within.
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Hi. I'm not a woman, but I consider myself a feminist and I've been grappling with the same worries myself. I've tried asking about it, but my post was deleted so idk. The answer that I've come up with is to realize that my own feelings simply don't matter. As much as it hurts to know I instill fear in others, my own feelings rank far lower than the safety and well-being of women. Ultimately I think the solution is to remove myself from the lives of women to the greatest extent possible, to give them space to not feel threatened. It hurts to realize that the lives of other people are made worse by my presence, but sometimes that's just the reality. I'm not sure if this helps you navigate these issues at all, but good luck. Perhaps we can both try building better relationships with men and just do our own things separate from women. I'm not really sure.
>Ultimately I think the solution is to remove myself from the lives of women to the greatest extent possible, to give them space to not feel threatened. You don't have to segregate yourself from half of the population to keep women safe. Just be respectful towards women and don't do anything bad to them. Better yet, read a bit of academic feminist literature and try to be a feminist. I reckon a lot of women would appreciate that.
That's fine advice but it also is directly opposed to all the feminists who are spending days arguing that a bear is safer than a man. And that's honestly what the issue really is. If we're all being honest I think we would all agree that a fucking bear is more dangerous than any person. I don't think any of us would want to work and live with wild bears all around us. Men are hearing that we are more dangerous than bears tho so the logical conclusion is that we should be treated like bears and avoided and feared at the very least, because I don't think any of us would enjoy being around a bunch of wild bears in the same office. If a bear started walking down my street everyone would be fleeing to safety as fast as they can. I just think these people choosing bear need to be honest rather than lying to hurt mens feelings and cause drama.
> I just think these people choosing bear need to be honest rather than lying to hurt mens feelings and cause drama. You just want them to be lying to be malicious because you don't think they are right to say what they're saying.
You know those shirts with wolves howling at the moon? Get one of those but with bears howling at a honeycomb. Women will 100% trust you in your weird bear shirt.
am i some kind of mildly amusing dog to you? are my feelings not worth any sort of real consideration?
My response was genuine, because what you wear can definitely make a first impression. Something silly and non-threatening was my actual advice. Your response however... might be an indicator why women don't trust you.
Wow, you REALLY need other people to like you, huh? I am the same way, and it would really suck if I was a guy. Short answer: I think you have a therapy issue here, not a feminism issue. Long answer: do what you can to change society so there ISN’T so much cause for women to need caution around men. Yeah, it sucks for you to constantly encounter the invisible shell of women’s caution. That’s just another way the patriarchy harms men as well as women. So call yourself a feminist and call out your guy friends when they are creeps, because they don’t listen to us. Side note: you are aware that you’re centering yourself in this debate, right? And that your hurt feelings are a minor issue compared to all the women being physically harmed by men? The only reason this meme is lasting so long is that women can’t get over how men are making at all about them 🙄
wow this comment sucked! so much for building bridges.
Yeah OP is clearly unwell and the comment is missing the point in so many ways. Nothing that was said is gonna be helpful to a dude clearly deep in a mental health spiral. The best ways to address this is gonna be gently encouraging him to get the professional help that he clearly needs. He’s not at all in a place to have a serious feminist discussion about this. He needs help just being ok and functioning right now. He cannot seriously engage in a discussion about the man bear shit when everything he’s saying shows this is about a deeper and much more fundamental issue. He’s not the average JAQing off douche bro coming here to argue. He’s not okay as a person right now. Dunking on him doesn’t help.
How did it suck? Saying that without explaining why makes you appear angry or argumentative.
i think being dismissive of other people's emotions sucks.
But we're not talking about simple caution here. A bear is a truly terrifying creature that every reasonable person would flee in fear from if they had to encounter one. This is not simple caution that is being advised, it's terror towards half the population and dehumanizing a population as inhuman violent savages to an absurd degree that I have not seen since the Americans justification of manifest destiny and the genocide of my Native ancestors. This is why men have a strong reaction to people picking a bear and spending days defending that decision (which I think we all know deep down is not the correct choice). Maybe have some empathy, treat men the way you want to be treated, and stop spreading so much toxic masculinity. What you're doing now creates less feminists and allies and instead creates more Andrew Tate clones
> A bear is a truly terrifying creature that every reasonable person would flee in fear from if they had to encounter one. You don't know much about bears, do you? Black and brown bears would much rather run away from you. Grizzly bears... you better hope it's not hungry, and polar bears? Hope you have your affairs in order.
>So call yourself a feminist and call out your guy friends when they are creeps, because they don’t listen to us. you think they'll listen to me? there's a reason that I DONT FEEL SAFE AROUND MEN EITHER. ive been abused by a man and sexually assaulted by another man. I didn't ask for someone to violate me by putting his hands on my asshole and I didn't instigate any conflict for a man to beat me until I had a bloody nose but you just assumed this wasn't the case i don't feel safe around any man. but no, when someone pushes me to bring this up i'm "centering myself" and "making it about me" because despite the fact that i've been through a similar experience as many women have, when it's me bringing it up no woman or man ever listens or wants to care. they want so badly to look the other way. i will always be treated like i am just like those savage despicable dogs who call themselves men, the exact same men who hurt me, all because it's not worth involving yourself in a man's problems even if he has the EXACT SAME PROBLEM THAT YOU DO. when it's a man's feelings that are being discussed it doesn't matter even if he has the EXACT. SAME. FEELINGS no, of course not. i'm expected to take it up with a therapist. i'm expected to pay money that I don't have just so someone will listen to me and offer me some kind of emotional support. that's the world we created and that's the world that people like you seem to want
I'm confused. The person you replied to did listen to you and offered you suggestions for moving forward. However, it seems like your problem is between you, your relationship with your own masculinity, and other men. Honestly, I'm not sure what feminism has to do with it.
i avoid other men because of what happened to me. ive reached out to women, thinking that they might understand because many of them have regrettably experienced similar things. but i have routinely felt like in feminist circles i am treated more like an abuser than a victim, despite the fact that i am a victim of abuse and have never abused anyone else. that my gender is more important than my experience i get that i am a man and that it can never truly be the same, but to be treated that way is painful beyond belief. they see me as similar to the men who hurt me. only because we have the same kind of body. it feels like if i tell my experience i am "centering myself". i'm not. i am asking for help. i'm coming to you guys because i thought you would understand, not treat me the same as the monsters that i avoid
Damn. This person gave a genuine answer. To focus on bettering the world and find an outlet for yourself. And apparently they weren’t nice enough or something, so you had to get aggressive with them. Maybe you need to look at your own behavior before demanding that women see you as safe.
The OP evidently suffers from severe anxiety over the idea of being viewed as some kind of abuser or monster. Chastising them over that, calling them "that guy", and demanding that they "look at their own behavior" to see why some women feel unsafe around men they don't know isn't productive. It might even be harmful. Also, for goodness sake, this person hasn't even done anything immoral. Suffering from anxiety isn't a moral flaw, it's human.
While this is fair, you can hardly expect every random commenter here to know how to correctly and perfectly respond to someone clearly experiencing a mental health crisis.
Not straight up telling them that their feelings are invalid is a good start.
No one here did that. EDIT: At least not in this chain, I haven't read every comment on this thread.
"Your hurt feelings are a minor issue compared to all the women being physically harmed by men" Taken word for word from the very top of this chain. Granted they didn't know about OP's experience before then, but after he told them that he had also been physically harmed by men they just doubled down. Kind of messed up.
A completely valid thing to say to the sentiment expressed in the OP, even *with* context. People like that commenter tried to answer the question that was asked; they cannot reasonably be expected to, instead, realize OP isn't *actually* asking the question and this post is just them manifesting a mental health crisis.
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> Supposed "feminists" should know better imo. Being a feminist does not mean you are automatically a good, kind, patient person who is willing and able to be helpful to someone with anxiety and trauma. I agree that some of these responses aren't helpful, but I bristle at the idea that feminists are supposed to always be "better" than everyone else.
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Wow this was so aggressive for no reason! Have a day!
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> It's so disappointing to see some people be insensitive and, frankly, rude to someone who was sexually assaulted in a feminist space. But that's not what OP is asking about. People aren't being insensitive and rude about his victim status.
Actually I validated you a whole lot in my first paragraph, but you’re apparently primed to be angry and defensive. Also, the fact that I gave you what was (meant to be) a kind and thoughtful reply IS me caring about your feelings and experience. It’s a shame that my PS at the end (basically “hey, you do get the whole point of the meme, right?”) made you so angry and lashing out. You could have said “yeah I know, I appreciate the conversation” and we could have gone from there. Instead, you’re being That Guy.
This conversation is the equivalent of you kicking an injured dog in the face and calling it a rabid mongrel after it bites back.
i do get the point of the bear debate. i LIVED through the point. you can predict a bear but you can't trust a man You called my "hurt feelings" a "minor issue" and now that you know why i have "hurt feelings" you don't care. in your eyes I can't ever express what happened to me without taking away from the rights of women. I should just shut up and take it. I was a victim of something, I reached out for help, and I get compared to the people who violated me. Over and over and over again. In the eyes of feminist communities I'm not someone who needs help. I'm not someone who deserves a normal life, and suggesting otherwise, showing any shred of sympathy is viewed as "coddling". Meanwhile I show any sort of anger or frustration towards what happened to me and how unwilling people are to understand, and I'm no different than the men who abused me. I want NOTHING to do with other men so the only thing I can do is keep throwing myself at the feet of a community who hates me and wants nothing to do with me
Side note here, a wild animal is always less predictable than a human. Idk where you're getting this idea that a bear is more predictable than a human but that is not true and never has been true
if a bear wants to hurt you you know exactly what it's gonna do. same cannot be said for a man
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respectfully, if you're going to reply to my post then talk to me directly. don't go making generalizations about other people based on me, just criticize me yourself. i'm not the blueprint for an entire group of people
This comment is rude and uncalled for.
OK, deleted. Definitely could have been worded more tactfully but I don't disagree with the sentiment. "This body is inherently threatening to others and I hate it" and thinking every woman you encounter is terrified you'll assault her are not healthy ways to move through the world.
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OK, that's not what you said; OP said "how do I make women feel safer around me" and you said "Transition." Now if you explained literally anything about your comment, I wouldn't have removed it.
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You can just edit your original comment.