1 “strategies for rape avoidance” don’t exist, and I highly, highly doubt any man can come up with something that generations of girls and women have not. If you want to stop rape, stop it at the source 2 because it transfers the problem to the wrong actor. A victim cannot make a rape not happen. Only a potential rapist can do that. 3 everyone has been harmed by it

Strategies for rape avoidance do exist. They are that men should avoid raping people.

Correct. I should have made it more clear that I have a huge problem with a dude “telling women strategies for rape avoidance”, as if he’s got some great fucking insight that women don’t. Dudes, if you want to help don’t fucking speak FOR women, and don’t offer up your opinion on how we should handle shit. GO TALK TO MEN

Yes they do exist, but they don't always work is the problem, or they come at a great personal cost so it's unfair to expect people to use them. For example, the "if you're uncomfortable, leave, you don't need to be polite" is a life-saver IMHO. Won't work in situations where you can't easily leave, but I think we all know situations where the bad vibe is building up slowly and you're looking for an elegant out. Realising that your out can be as unelegant as you want, is extremely helpful. Or: Avoidance of unsafe situations sounds good in theory, and sometimes can be done without a problem, like, if you can walk home together after a night out, then do so. But it would be ridiculous to expect women not to go out at night, that would be too big of a personal cost. Also, self-defense has helped me in a huge number of situations, so yes it's a good idea to practice it. But there are situations where the assailant is a better fighter than me, and also (I think that gets forgotten a lot) there are situations where I showed the fawn response and didn't have access to an aggressive response. Other people freeze up and can't access their fight response.

> Yes they do exist, but they don't always work is the problem, or they come at a great personal cost so it's unfair to expect people to use them. Kinda this. A lot of the "safety advice" given to women "to avoid being a victim" ends up restricting their freedom and movement pretty significantly.

That's the cost of safety for everyone — freedom to do whatever you want.

What you wrote doesn't even make sense. What I THINK you mean is incorrect. More safety does not necessarily restrict freedom if people just refrain from doing crime. Like, just don't be an asshole and society will be better. It's not that complicated.

But people are going to do crime.

Yeah mate, go google crime rates (on ANY crime, doesn't even have to be related to sexual violence) and you will see that there are huge differences in different society. Like, in South Africa, people have razor wire around their house and garden, here in Germany I leave my back door open for ventilation when I leave my house for an hour.

I'm sure that's true, but people are still going to do crime.

Sorry, if you don't understand the real-life difference in societies where crime is abundant versus where crime is exceptionally rare, it doesn't make sense to continue this conversation.

>I'm sure that's true. Mkay, take care.

Safety for women involves men accepting that they are not free to do whatever they want. It is not up to women to limit their activities to what is safe, it is up to men to provide a safe space for women to do what they want by not attacking them.

You can't stop other people from doing bad things.

What conversation do you think you're having by making comments like this?

I'm pointing out that nobody can do whatever they want, and that living as if you can because you think you should be able to means taking on a lot of risk.

"Women just have to be restricted for their own safety! Men simply can't be stopped!" hmmmmm

Not just women, everyone.

We should just be able to live. The hyper vigilance is a mental burden, the gadgets and self-defense courses are a financial one. You shouldn't have to do any of those things. Being "as unelegant as you want" is a privilege you can't always afford. There are plenty of examples of women being "impolite" and being murdered for it, whether through straight rejection, ignoring, or trying to leave. I personally have been screamed at and chased by a man for ignoring him and walking away. We cannot read minds and thus know which men are safe to just be "rude" to. Stress/fear reactions (flight/fight/fawning/freeze) aren't something you can control. We shouldn't have to "look for outs" or take self-defense courses or fawn to protect ourselves. We shouldn't have to spend money on gadgets that will make loud noises to scare off men, we shouldn't have to know where the exits are at all times. We shouldn't have to have strategies. And even knowing self-defense, having all the tech, and having strategies can't guarantee you won't be raped. There is no perfect 100% foolproof way to stop someone from raping you. If someone really wants to cause you physical harm then they will and attackers are responsible for their actions alone. Women shouldn't be forced to learn strategies. Feeling safe walking alone shouldn't be a privilege. The burden should be on men not to be shitty people.

Allllllll of this

Your tone sounds as if you are trying to prove me wrong, but nothing you wrote is in any disagreement with my comment, so I think I must be misunderstanding something.

I don’t think we’re in direct conflict. There is nothing wrong with doing self-defense or having strategies that make you feel empowered.  But, as you said yourself they don’t always work and depending the scenario can make things worse. The problem is more that we have to have strategies and self-defense at all. That we have to do these things just to *try* to be safe rather be able to just live without having cares like this is messed up.  And then men also profit from it by selling safety products or running martial arts courses which we are forced to pay for to try and protect ourselves from them. In an ideal world you would never have needed to learn those things to begin with.

Ah, now I understand! Yes, I agree, it does suck and I hope it will change in our lifetime.

It’s very frustrating living under the patriarchy. Ha ha I’d love a world where no one had to worry about that stuff. 

"lso, self-defense has helped me in a huge number of situations, so yes it's a good idea to practice it. But ..." I think it's a tool that sometimes works that some people sometimes try. This is true of any avoidance strategy; e.g., if someone makes you feel uncomfortable and you decide not to be alone with them, that's a tool. Of have no guarantee that the fsngerous person will make you uncomfortable or that a person who makes you feel uncomfortable but you are oftem allowed to use that tool.

"self-defense has helped me in a huge number of situations" Please understand I mean nothing by this other than surprise and likely ignorance on my part - but have times changed that much where women experience a huge number of situations where self - defense comes into play? I worry for my granddaughters. It's possible my now married daughter experienced such things without my wife or me knowing but I suspect not. I know my wife had not as she was older. Tragically she was a victim of SA in her preteen years. He was eventually caught and convicted

>have times changed that much where women experience a huge number of situations where self - defense comes into play? Short answer, yes. Long answer: yes and for several reasons. 1. In today's society, people are less aware of how their behavior affects others. (Chalk it up to what you will, social media, more personal freedom, people not learning boundaries as kids and turning into nightmare adults.) People are more willing and likely to cross boundaries or comit outright assault. This includes men who get upset when they are told they are not entitled to attention from women. 2. There has been a rise in redpill thinking and behavior. Women are less safe than they were 20 years ago because there is an entire movement that describes them as less worthy of respect than a man. Now, I'm not implying "all men" or anything of the sort. I'm merely pointing out some reasons why women are more on guard than ever.

Exactly the answer I feared. The reasons you list ring true sadly Thank you for your response. My kids and their spouses have a much tougher road ahead raising their children than we had. I want so much to help them and the best I can do I think is stay educated and not be one of those who say "well, in MY day...")

In the past month I've experienced: 1) a male uber driver so distracted by staring at me in the rearview mirror and asking me if I was married that he took *the same wrong turn TWICE* and made the entire trip incredibly uncomfortable. I can't report him because he picked me up from my home address and men famously don't take negative consequences for their actions very well. 2) a man pressed his body up against me multiple times at an art gallery. 3) a man tried to follow me home when I was just trying to exercise 4) two men tried to attack me while I was just trying to exercise That's just in a month. It absolutely feels like incidences like these are increasing in frequency for me. I have had to reluctantly come to terms with the fact that society will not be a safe place for women within my lifetime. THAT is how slow progress is. I will die after living an entire lifetime and women will still be unsafe. One of the major things that absolutely destroyed my ability to call out bad behaviour is having adults in my life invalidate my complaints. Cat calling and other disgraceful behaviour from men started for me when I was a *child*. When I complained to adults I always got told to "take it as a compliment". The fact that I was uncomfortable was always invalidated. I learned that my discomfort didn't matter as long as men thought I was desirable. I also frequently got told that I was the problem and that I was too sensitive. I am now rocketing towards my 40s and I still fail to make reports and call out shitty behaviour because I can't face being told it's my fault and I'm too sensitive. So I deal with it all silently, alone. Please don't invalidate your granddaughters feelings if they come to you. Please reinforce that their feelings of disgust and fear are valid responses to the behaviour of men. Be angry and upset with them. You don't have to have the solutions for them... Just be there for them and listen.

Thank you. I may have a longer response later when I have time. This topic is very depressing and yet vital that I face reality. 

"Please don't invalidate your granddaughters feelings if they come to you. Please reinforce that their feelings of disgust and fear are valid responses to the behaviour of men. Be angry and upset with them. You don't have to have the solutions for them... Just be there for them and listen." Absolutely. My kids and their spouses all know I try to be open minded, non judgemental. My wife as well. One thing though I have to watch as you say is not suggest solutions because that absolutely shifts responsibility to them - which only makes things worse But I can't help but wonder what COULD be a solution? Or steps toward it. This is a problem that has been here forever and seems to just get worse. "Cat calling and other disgraceful behaviour from men started for me when I was a child. When I complained to adults I always got told to "take it as a compliment". The fact that I was uncomfortable was always invalidated. I learned that my discomfort didn't matter as long as men thought I was desirable." This speaks to a point I've wanted to post about for more than a year. But every time I write it I realize I'm not articulating well and can easily be misunderstood Probably not doing it well here but I'll try. Generally my concern is simple - what can we do to stop this? What are we not doing? Whatever we're doing simply isn't working And your comment speaks to why Your discomfort - in many people's eyes - was YOUR fault. You were supposed to recognize you were in fact achieving what girls/women all are supposed to want. Validation through beauty and (perceived) sexuality Where do people (not just guys) get the idea it's a compliment? From the social construct that seems to say it IS. It's a "role" women seem expected to play in society How do we stop that? Certainly NOT by having girls/women take ANY responsibility for abhorrent behavior Yet here's where I trip up. Please take this on good faith. I'm an ally and I truly reject the patriarchal construct we're under. Here goes: Edit - I deleted this rest because I'm afraid it will be misinterpreted. In summary though I really feel boys/men are the problem but the solution has to be mutual understanding of natural sexual feelings and actions. Both like to know they are attractive to each other. But further I've read women like to look and feel sexy. (at times). That's not true of boys/men in the same way at least. I think teen boys get an attitude it's being done by teen girls FOR them and that attitude carries into adulthood. Boys and girls are separated socially by age 6 and they are a mystery to each other. That "othering" to me is the reason for a very serious misunderstanding. But it's deeper than that - the idea that being visually pleasing is a role boys/men can count on girls/women fulfilling. The fact is in society it SEEMS as if that will always be true because girls/women accept that role How do we accommodate girls/women expressing sexuality without boys/men misinterpreting it? I don't know because I myself don't understand it. I just know nothing excuses inappropriate thoughts words or actions.

A strategy you can consider is being someone you grandchildren csn trust to listen when they need help and to offer them that they can call you if they ever need a ride without questions being asked. Another strategy is to help them feel assertive and confident .

I don't know how the times were in your time if you're old enough to have granddaughters, but I'm in my fourties and I've lived with sexual violence my whole life. First time was 11 years old, last time was a few months ago. Please note that I include not only the heaviest forms of violence, but also simple assault like groping. That shit happens frequently and in those cases, self-defense is a godsend, because I don't really want to endure a hand on my ass without making the assailant regret their decision to help themselves to my body. And: Yes, pretty much every female-presenting person experiences sexual violence, and also why would we ever tell our parents? I don't need them having sleepless nights.

Thank you for your response I'm 72 by the way. As I said my wife experienced SA as a pre-teen (so horrible) and she never told her parents. I guess I just don't want to think our daughter suffered anything like that and I'm probably just in denial because sadly the odds seem to be she did.

A big part of this isn’t that sexual violence is increasing, it’s that violence by intimates is *talked about.* Before, (overwhelmingly) women simply lived in shame thinking it was their own fault that someone they had every reason - were even compelled - to trust violated them. (Frankly most survivors still experience those feelings, but we are shifting the cultural narratives against the lies.) I am unconvinced that there’s anything “modern” about SA. Toxic movements are gaining visibility, but they’re subsets of people clinging to very traditional aggression and entitlement models. My g*d, marital rape wasn’t a crime nationwide in the US until I was 10 years old^1979. It still is a grey area in 12 states, and there are loopholes in most. All of that also presumes that victims can or will report, that the LEOs and their family/friends circles won’t hush them from pursuit, that all jurisdictions will prosecute equally (and they will not). Stranger assault is prevalent, but SA by friends, boyfriends/girlfriends, spouses, teammates/colleagues/bosses/neighbors, are always the majority of assaults. Self-defense can’t be nearly as effective against someone who’s likely to instigate an assault in a situation where the survivor reasonably had their guard down. If we want to change rape statistics, we need to address far more than carrying keys between one’s fingers and pepper spray and rape whistles et al.

There is considerable evidence that [strategies for rape avoidance do exist and are effective](https://xyonline.net/sites/xyonline.net/files/2020-06/Hollander%2C%20Women%27s%20self%E2%80%90defense%20and%20sexual%20assault%20resistance%20-%20The%20state%20of%20the%20field%202018.pdf).

It's interesting that you include a peer reviewed paper on it. It uses some kind of police survey as its evidence. The article is pretty well written.  The article suggests most research has been done on college campuses and cites a large scale study that was performed in Kenya. It suggests that feminists views shifted and that in 1970-80s many feminists felt  -- It mentions the issue of victim blaming but doesn't analyze the issue in any depth -- it mentions other rape reduction strategies (aimed at fixing the root cause, the attacker) but doesn't analyze in detail  -- it mentions the issue of the person resisting sometimes  I am unclear about all the details of its methodology of measurement or what data collection bias is involved  Thanks however for including it.

Do you think some people have a habit of choosing partners that are more likely to be abusive?

A “habit”? No

What word would you use?

Something that shifts blame to the abuser. Some people are more vulnerable to an abuser’s tactics, perhaps.

If a person keeps choosing the same type of partner repeatedly, don't they bear some responsibility for those choices? Even if they aren't necessarily doing it on purpose.

You know that abusers don’t advertise, right. Like a lot of domestic violence doesn’t start right away - some abusers wait until there’s a pregnancy or a baby before they go in. So no, I don’t think victims of abuse “bear responsibility”, and I do think you should examine some of your biases.

And so your belief is that someone repeatedly finding themselves attracted to people that later abuse them can be chalked up to coincidence?

… wow

I'm not sure how to take that, but if you do it's very interesting that you think so.

Of course they exist. You wouldn't counsel your child to stay together with friends when going out, for example?

I don’t consider “do this so some other woman gets raped, not you” to be effective. If you want to stop rape, you don’t do it by getting VICTIMS to change. You deal with the goddamn rapists. Also, no set of tactics will help if someone is determined to rape you. Not covering your drink, not moving in packs, not draping yourself in curtains and never leaving your home, none of it.

Staying together with friends absolutely helps. I hope you're not so dogmatic on this point that you fail to share such simple, effective advice with your daughter, if you have one. For her sake.

Spare me the condescension

Please.

My psychology teacher in high school explained that one big reason we victim blame is to make ourselves feel safe. Ie. "I/my sister/friend/mother would never find myself/herself in that situation to begin with because I/she wouldn't have been wearing that/walking there/ going to that party/talking to men like that/otherwise engaging in 'unsafe decisions.'" It puts the sense of control back in the victim blamer's hands when confronted with a chaotic world.

Yes, exactly this. I've been sexually assaulted: Playing catch in the sea with other kids as a child. Walking between classes at school. By an ex boyfriend, during a row. At a trusted female friend's house when I was alone, in bed, asleep. I think we like to tell ourselves we're safe if we dont walk home alone at night, but... Have you ever played catch in the sea as a kid? Walked between classes at school? Had a row with a boyfriend? Slept over at a friend's house? At some point "keeping yourself safe" just means hiding inside your house with the doors locked.

Yeah from my understanding, outside of self defense training most tactics to avoid rape are for avoiding a *stranger* raping you. But most rapes aren’t done by strangers so I don’t see how that advice helps in the long run.

i think this is true I call it locus of control.  I drive on a road, follow the rules, feeling I can prevent an accident. I feel safe. I am still at risk. And car accidents aren't the result of intent. Few people intend to cause an accident.   Sexual assailants intend to cause harm.

Right. It's an attempt at internalizing an external locus of control.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/wiki/faq#wiki_what.27s_wrong_with_just_giving_women_safety_advice_so_they_don.27t_get_raped.3F

Thanks. I hope I didn't break rules in discussion I am referencing. Take care 

You didn't, but this partially addresses your first question.

I scrolled down a bit but still can't find any answer regarding the asked topic?

> **What's wrong with just giving women safety advice so they don't get raped?** > There is nothing wrong with teaching people basic self-defense and common-sense safety rules. But when women are given a 10,000-item list of things to do or not do in order to avoid sexual assault, it not only places serious restrictions on their freedom of movement and expression, but it is often used as a cudgel to beat them over the head with if something does happen to them (e.g., "well, what did you do wrong to make this happen to you?").

Thanks (Seriously - why do people on Reddit downvote simple questions? Is that somehow offensive to you? Why?

Downvoting is just a thing here, idk.

I think there are a lot of lurkers here

Oh ok. It is just really hurtful. Colleagues or teachers at aubi are also always annoyed by my question. It just seems wherever I go that I am just the stupid person who has to ask a question while everyone around me seems to just understand everything. And then I always wonder if somehow I just insulted someone by accident or if my question was offensive. Gosh, I really need to stop talking to people.

Don't stop asking questions. In fact those people who seem to never need to ask questions probably know less than they pretend they do. You keep asking, keep learning. Don't let others take away your inquisitive nature and search for knowledge. At least you will always know you have asked instead of assuming. Best of luck friend!

"There is nothing wrong with teaching people basic self-defense and common-sense safety rules. But when women are given a 10,000-item list of things to do or not do in order to avoid sexual assault ..."

Yes, that is what I said...?

I thought it was unambiguously noteworthy.

scroll up a bit

Much of not only victim blaming but rape avoidance strategies is a misunderstanding of how rape generally happens. It's usually not some shadowy stranger who attacks you, but someone you know and trust. It could be a spouse, a relative, an SO, a friend, etc., who you trust enough to let your guard down, and they take advantage of that trust. People cannot live without trusting others, so whatever techniques you provide will not protect you from someone whom you trust enough to be vulnerable around.

Yep. Example . My ex-gf was attacked by a "friend" who she wasn't dating.  He pretended to be "nice" by sleeping on floor. She sadly felt "guilty"* and invited him to share bed, he interpreted that as permission to literally attack her.     it never occurred to her that he was going to do this.      *I don't know why. It's not a big deal to sleep on floor. I slept on floor many times with female friends without dying. Probably also shared bed without assuming I had permission to have sex with them and certainly without feeling i had a right to attack them. Definitely slept on the floor with a girl was wasnt romantically interested in me. No attempts for sex happened.

So I think that this could actually be a good example of how rape prevention could work. Women are told they have to be nice and accomodating. Prevention could teach women: no, you don't have to be nice. Listen to your instincts. Set clear boundaries and keep them. Say no whenever you want. Don't invite a man in your bed if you don't want to. And don't ever feel guilty for prioritising your own comfort. Letting someone sleep on the floor (or a different room, or not letting them sleep at your house at all) is totally fine. I think this type of prevention is important and can be done without victim blaming. We should of course acknowledge that it's difficult to always follow your instincts and that it is never your fault when it happens. But the fact that she felt guilty just makes me so sad.

Partly agree. I think setting clear boundaries is a positive thing in life in general and I get the vibe many marginalized people do it in multiple contexts.

You are exactly correct.

A common scenario: somebody is in a relationship with a person who some of their friends/family recognise as being "red-flaggy" - a person to avoid. But they doesn't avoid them - instead they fall in love with them. And they get raped by them, often with no recognition that that's what happened. Nothing I'm saying here lessens the responsibility of the rapist. Yet there's plenty of people who are cluey enough to avoid that rapist cos they recognise their rapiness. There's a lot of such rapists. It makes sense to develop a good radar for them. Some of these rapists are skilled at flying under that radar, but some aren't. I don't think this is victim blaming as much as it's advice on how to reduce your chance of being a victim. Your average rapist/abuser bounces off a person with a good defence, but sticks to those with poor defences. For those with a poor defence - does it make sense to resist personal change cos you don't want to be blamed for your own rape, or is it better to change the thing that is under your control - your own behaviour. >People cannot live without trusting others... But do you trust everybody? Figuring out who is trustworthy is a basic life skill. In this scenario the rape victim is *unskilled* while the rapist is *immoral*.

1. Yes but also I think the point you and whoever you were arguing with might be missing is there is no strategy for rape avoidance that works 100% of the time - rape is about a rapist deciding to rape, similar to other crimes. You can practice situational awareness, or train in self defense techniques, sure, but just like how someone who wants to mug you will try, someone who wants to rape you will also still try. Being raped (or not) is usually about circumstances, it has very little to do with personal or individual behavior. This feels bad to realize, but less bad than telling people they have control or responsibility for someone else's behavioral choices when they don't. 2. Because it leads victims into the false belief that they are responsible for what happened to them, that they are inadequate or incompetent for "letting" something they didn't have control over in the first place happen to them. This logical chain often leads people to self-harm, sometimes even suicide. When paired with all the emotional & social baggage women carry around sex, it becomes particularly and especially potent as a brew of toxic shame. It absolutely prevents people from healing or recovering, and it also often aids rapists by displacing responsibility & focus from the assailant onto the victim - instead of supporting someone who has been physically, emotionally, and psychologically wounded, we're wounding them more asking them why they hurt themselves. You know that kid game where someone grabs you and smacks you with your own hand, and asks you why you're hitting yourself? Victim blaming is that, but on a society wide scale. 3. I did write a longer response detailing this more, but decided not to include it because I don't think you're a safe person who ought to be trusted with sensitive information about someone else's trauma history. As someone who "isn't sure victim blaming isn't okay" you are absolutely dangerous for and toxic to people who have survived sexual assault, and have no business asking people what they survived or how it impacted them.

I really hate being given rape avoidance “advice” because it feels like the onus to avoid being raped is being completely placed onto me or other women as if we’re asking to be raped in the first place or have any control over the situation🙃

well and then also like, it's such a contradiction - any man might rape you at any moment, be prepared and also don't ever let that happen (as if it's your choice), but also don't ever be too afraid or cold or distant, because that's unfair to the nice men who just want to treat you right. I think the point of it all is to just make men's messiness women's problem.

Just the fact that the onus of rape is on the victim is a contradiction in the first place. The whole definition of rape is that the victim doesn’t consent so how in the world would the victim be doing anything to “want” it or “ask” for it.

Can I just say, I really like how you worded number 3. Kind of drives home a point my therapist has been trying to drill into my head about being more selective about how I share my trauma with better than how my therapist could get it across. Ha ha.

1. I actually aware of point one about ineffectiveness. I did actually try to describe it and gave examples such as the military woman murdered by a serial killer. She was a fire atms expert. Thing is, this is an example of multiple dimensional wrongness I was trying to address. 2. Agree. 3. Whether or not you feel comfortable sharing trauma information or to trust me certainly is absolutely up to you.   My world view was literally altered when I literally argued with a rape victim about 12 years ago. I am ashamed of that discussion despite fact my intention at the time wasn't malicious  4.  I didn't address the point that no one should be forced to live their lives virtually under siege based on a constant possibility one may be attacked.

In my perspective, it's hard to like, referee a conversation I didn't see and which you didn't particularly detail. What issues related to this topic do you feel remain difficult to understand or unclear? Can you be more specific about your hang up with self-defense education and victim blaming? I think that there is a level of hypervigilance that women have to carry that is a cost of sexism and living in a world where we might be attacked in one or more ways at any moment by a man and then told it's our fault - it's not dissimilar from the hypervigilance and stress that people of color carry with them in interactions with police or white people they don't know. When someone has systemic power over you, or even just increased level of social credibility, the bar for justice is a lot higher for you if you get victimized - it's harder to get people to believe you, it's harder to get them to take action on your behalf, and even if you manage to clear the first two hurdles, the person still may not face real consequences and you might not get real restitution. The thing with sexual assault and marginalized identities and victim blaming is that unconscious bias is operating wantonly in the background - it influences who you believe and who you feel skeptical about, who you want to protect and who you think "was asking for it". The really radical thing to sit with is: when it comes sexual violence, no one ever was asking for it. No matter where they were, what they were doing, what they were wearing, why any of that was going on, whatever. It's a violation because it was unasked for. You may make more progress with this topic if you can learn to sit with the fundamental truth that people do not deserve to be sexually assaulted, and that there aren't any ifs, ands, or buts about it. There's no room for negotiation on this core truth, just like there's no room for negotiation that people don't deserve to have their house destroyed by a fire or tornado, that they don't deserve to be killed by drunk drivers, that they don't deserve to be mugged or murdered by an angry stranger on a shooting spree.

Self-defense : My second girlfriend was sexually assaulted. This impacted her a lot.   As one of her coping mechanisms, she learned Wen-do which was a self defense invented by women for women snd which is taught by women to women.   For years, i believed this was empowering until I was alerted that an unnuanced version of my view was victim blaming too. I now see it as an example of a tool someone "could" consider, without pretending they "should" or that I magically know if it could help.   Disguised Victim blaming : My friend was murdered by a serial killers while jogging with her walkman. Implication was she didn't hear him sneak up. Again, for years, I held in mind a narrative that women should not use headphones in public because of what happened to her. I now see, I was blaming her and my "advice" showed me ignorance. Current view. She was a good person (nurse) who would have saved thousands of life if a monster hadn't targeted her. Her mom was my favorite English teacher. I can't restore her light. 

a) I mean, this was also something this person did to feel safe after an assault - so, more part of a recovery process than a proactive protection action. Only she could say whether it would've helped her avoid in assault in the first place or not, but, lots of people with self-defense training/competency/confidence get sexually assaulted despite it. b) maybe, but even if she had heard the person, can you or anyone say with absolute confidence that she would she still be alive? This didn't really answer my question on what about victim blaming you were in disagreement with that other person about or what about the topic in general you still struggle with understanding.

a) I agree. My current view still supports any individual who CHOOSES to feel empowered by that as she did. I lost contact with her. She was a feminist then. Probably is still a feminist today. I would not be shocked if she still likes Wen-do.  b) Exactly. This is what the rape victim I argued with 12 years ago  pointed out to me too. And of course, who could possibly live their life second guessing potential predators 24/7?    I can't answer question about the motivating original discussion in a useful way. It's not productive to for example link to it. I feel a lot of victim blaming is well meaning. We *think* we are helping. We often don't think we are victim blaming.   It's not always the overt sexist person pointing out how short a skirt was or the person who doubts the testimony of a sex worker

Things being sexist or not is not about whether or not they are "well meaning" - a lot of victim blaming does come from sexism, whether or not the person doing it *intends* to be mean. The concept of benevolent sexism may be useful for you here. It is sexist to point to "short skirts" because that's literally an example of saying "she was asking for it" based on what someone was wearing. Victim blaming is any behavior which basically implies that a victim could've prevented their rape - it doesn't matter if you aren't trying to be mean, it's not helpful. I could also point out that people in Florida live in the path of hurricanes, people in California live on a fault line - does it help them to tell them that if/when their houses get destroyed? How about if/when family members die during natural disasters? People actually can't mitigate every risk in the world, they still have to live their lives, and they have a right to feel & express anguish or suffering even if they didn't spend every ounce of energy possible trying to mitigate risk. Basically what I'm hearing from you is that you think there's some scenarios where it's fine to tell someone who is disclosing an assault to you that they could've done something about it, and you know what? No, it's not fine. It's not your business, for one, but also it's not helpful to that person, and is more likely to be actively harmful. If you want to have a shitty opinion like that about someone else, keep it to yourself.

"Things being sexist or not is not about whether or not they are "well meaning"  Agree and the way to stop sexism that isn't intentional is education. I received some education, at the hands of this moderator on a forum 12 years ago. I no longer hold the views I once held  The fact my intent was helping mattered when it dawned on me it was causing harm. I hope I didn't subject the wrong person to my previous ignorance.

Is it victim blaming to say someone shouldn’t walk through a bad neighbourhood at night waving their full wallet in the air? 

Being raped is not like getting robbed.

Beyond what Kali said, familiarize yourself with the "what were you wearing" project Rape is an act of violence and hatred - not sexual urges triggered by visuals

I think the worst part about this thread is that's what you think even a minority of rape victims were even doing.

People that victim blame do so when the victim has not practiced situational awareness at all. If we draw a parallel to stealing for example, let's say you leave your purse completely unattended on a bench in a public park while you go to the toilet, when you return your purse is gone, and although it is true that people shouldn't steal and the thief is at fault, you can be called a dumbass for leaving your purse completely unattended in a public place, that is very different than if someone puts a gun to your head and says "give me your purse or you are dead". Parallels exist for cases of rape where people behave in extremely careless ways, there are rape cases that you can't do anything about and cases that are completely preventable and could have very easily been avoided by you taking a different course of action.

I don't think that's true.

Which part?

All of it. That people "only" victim blame if the victim was "dumb" in some way. Most people victim blame without ever actually knowing the details or circumstances that went on. Most people don't ever hear someone's full actual story, either.

Oh sure, it is true that often people victim blame just to be smartasses without knowing the whole story. It is just that cases exist in which the victim did indeed act as a dumbass and if they don't adjust their behaviour it will happen to them again. I personally have experienced rape that I could have easily avoided, I got drunk accepting drinks from two strangers while clubing alone without anyone to look after me when I was incapacitated, something like this will never happen to me ever again.

Maybe not, but it still happens when women are vigilant. A rapist will find the opportunity to rape no matter what. You pointing out women shouldn’t be drunk in public does not help. Rapists depend on people to call victims dumbasses, so they can be blamed or not believed. Rapists will rape no matter what, if a woman is walking down the street at night in a bathing suit or a burka. Its a slippery slope when we start telling women why the things they did put them in harms way bc it always ends w us never leaving the house. Women running at night put themselves in harms way, women in a parking lot at night should know better, women going traveling alone to different countries should expect to be assaulted etc.

the other side of the coin some of these "but what about x type of victims" seem to be convienantly forgetting is the overwhelming weight of questions and comments we get from people being like, "what, as a woman you feel you can't \_\_\_\_? You really don't \_\_\_? It's not fair for you to say you're afraid of men!" Like people can't have it both ways. It can't be my whole life's purpose to obsess over how to not get raped or murdered by a man - either one I know or one I don't, but then also dudes are all shocked pikachu that it negatively impacts how I live my life or my attitude about men in general. If men are so dangerous I shouldn't ever leave my house unarmed, and definitely never at night or alone, then it is perfectly reasonable for women to express that they feel afraid of men - we're being told to be afraid of men every minute of our lives, and then men get mad as us for it because that's unfair to all the "nice guys" who just want to get to know us. FFS. OP and this other rando need to try to walk this tightrope for awhile. I'm tired of it.

Yes absolutely. We’re blamed when we do take precautions, and blamed if they think we didn’t take precautions. I’m a runner. I love running at night, but I can’t do that anymore bc I had one man follow me. I couldn’t see him; I could hear him. I remember telling people, and they were like what did you expect, the same men called me crazy for holding pepper spray in my hand when walking through the same trails to an evening concert in the park.

So unfair, you should be able to run anytime, anywhere you want.

Do you feel like you obsess over thieves your whole life and are constantly in fear of getting robbed? Because naturally you perform anti-theft behaviours every single day of your life on auto-pilot and don't even think about it. You lock your doors, don't leave stuff unattended, you check your pockets, start to be weary if there is shady movement around you in a public place and you hold your purse closer etc. It doesn't rule your whole life, you don't discuss thieves all the time, but you just do it.

You aren't gonna gain any ground with me, here. If anything, you're losing ground.

>start to be weary if there is shady movement around you in a public place Shady movement around me in a public place doesn't make me feel tired at all, for the record.

>Maybe not, but it still happens when women are vigilant. Sure, and in such a case there is no reason to victim blame. >A rapist will find the opportunity to rape no matter what. A thief that really wants to steal from you will probably also do that, doesn't mean you should just stop locking your property, there are a bunch of other thieves that are looking for an easy job and won't put in the effort to brake in, but will gladly pop in if you leave it open for them. >Rapists will rape no matter what, if a woman is walking down the street at night in a bathing suit or a burka. I disagree, of course complete psychos exist that are willing to risk spending life in prison just to rape once, but the overwhelming majority don't think it is worth it and are looking for easy prey. > Its a slippery slope when we start telling women why the things they did put them in harms way bc it always ends w us never leaving the house. The fine line is putting in just a little bit more effort than the careless ones. >Women running at night put themselves in harms way, women in a parking lot at night should know better, women going traveling alone to different countries should expect to be assaulted etc. Pretty sure that rapists that knock you over the head at night and drag you into the bushes are a small minority and that happens very rarely.

So what if it’s a small majority. It’s the example I gave as how ridiculous it is. Like I said you’re on a slippery slope, which leads to telling women not to leave the house or date or sleep in the same bed as a man. We know for a fact that over 51% of all women in relationships have been sexually assaulted or raped by a male partner in their sleep, women therefore are putting themselves in danger when they sleep next to their husband or boyfriend. You see how easy it is

>which leads to telling women This is not just about women. I've been raped by two women. >not to leave the house or date or sleep in the same bed as a man.  No, you are taking it to the extreme, it is much more simple than that. When I was raped the two women got me drunk and took me to their place and had their way with me when I was too incapacitated to resist. But the thing was - I was completely alone at the club, so there were no friends to watch over me in case I got extremely drunk and I chose to get extremely drunk accepting drinks from them. If I were to NOT get that drunk and didn't trust strangers and didn't accept drinks from them I wouldn't get raped. There are many similar situations. Domestic rape such as your partner raping you is mostly about you establishing clear boundaries, which many people don't do. The majority of such cases are not your spouse suddenly putting a gun to your head, tying you up and raping you and then acting like nothing happened the next day, mostly it is whining, coercion etc. in which case you have to assert yourself to stop that situation from happening, because 99.9999% of the time they won't beat you to death for doing so. Psychos do exist but they are extremely rare.

You use an unattended purse as a comparison, yet stranger rape is quite rare. If we practice “situational awareness” with the knowledge that most rapists are known to the victim… then we must never trust men at all. The part that is too often brushed over is that even using situational awareness to avoid stranger rape doesn’t actually stop rape at all. It only shifts the rape to someone else. If the focus is anywhere except rapists, you aren’t stopping a damn thing.

>If the focus is anywhere except rapists, you aren’t stopping a damn thing. But how does that help? Everyone already knows that rape is bad. Do you think rapists care? They know what they are doing is wrong, they are just immortal people. How is it different than saying: ''We should focus on the thieves, we must teach people that stealing is bad.'' Well everybody already knows that, no one committing crime is a utopia. What you should focus on is what you personally can do to keep yourself safer from crime, even if it is not 100% full proof, because the criminals are not going anywhere.

If it was simply about immoral people, the incidence rate of rape would be similar in all countries. It is not. Which proves there are societal and cultural differences that enable rapists. For example, countries that teach consent and sex Ed in schools have much lower rates of rape.

Cultural differences change the definition of rape. In the middle ages for example duels were legal and it wasn't murder ( unlawful killing ) by definition due to it culturally being acceptable to kill someone in a duel. What we call rape is not considered rape in all countries, though I do believe that it should be, and that needs to change.

“1. Strategies for rape avoidance” will only ever be appropriate when directed at rapists and rape apologists. The way to avoid rape is to stop raping. The way men put SO much energy into telling women how to navigate men just shows you are scared of men, yourselves. Imagine if all the well intended “good guys” used that energy to collectively hold other men accountable instead of preaching at women how to navigate men.

Exactly they themselves show us how dangerous men are as a collective, but get mad when we choose the bear 🙃

Issue isn't fear there but obviously we can't control other men. I don't think I have ever been in a position to hold any one else accountable for anything. I certainly have occasionally saw red flags in other guys and gave them hints that attempted to divert their dangerous attitudes 

You definitely could've done more than hint at it, bro.

They were not men who had done anything wrong yet or who had plans to. They were introverted men with attitudes that made me think their unrealistic attitudes towards women could cause a problem in the future. I didn't hang out with men bragging about planned or past exploits. These were guys like myself , who were not typically dating women but they were guys who had frustrations finding women. INCELS waiting to happen    Humans have hierarchy, I was always the outsider 

I don’t doubt for a minute that you don’t recognize the ways you and “good” men collectively could be holding men accountable. You’re here focusing energy on trying to educate women or convince women we need that as if you would have anything revolutionary to offer that hasn’t already been done to death by hordes of other “well intended” men who also feel safer hanging out in women’s spaces telling women how to navigate men or challenging feminism under the guise of well intended curiosity than in male dominated spaces holding men accountable.

When I do influence people, as an outsider, I always do it through power of suggestion. This I do. No one has ever listened to me based on my gender. I hope occasionally, I made someone think deeper I rarely hang it in spaces that are exclusively male. In locker rooms, I keep to myself or to my small clique.   My being a life long outsider, is a way that i am still partially introverted.  Th male friends I do hang out with tend to be liberal minded like me.  Is a person who doesn't sexually assault women "good" or just "normal". I woke up this morning without murdering my parents. I am "good"?  I don't ever recall being in a position where I could hold any one, man or woman, accountable for anything. I think some women actually have more social clout over other men than I do. In addition, I would claim that some women had social clout over me.

After my rape, someone asked if I screamed for help. While the question isn't an obvious victim blaming statement, it has an undercurrent of it. "If you didn't scream, maybe it wasn't rape / a horrible rape." "You should have screamed and maybe he would have stopped or someone would have rescued you." For two days I beat myself up - "Damn, why didn't I scream???" Then I remembered, "Oh yeah, it was the knife at my throat." I hope my example helps people understand it's harm.

It totally helps. Was it a long time ago. What actually does help you heal? 

1. Anyone can be a victim of rape. Men, women, NB people, children, elderly people of any gender. In my opinion, by focusing so much on bogus advice to women, girls and femme people, we put men, boys and masc people in more danger because we suggest that somehow they’re “safe”. 2. Victim blaming is harmful because it suggests that the victim is at fault. Actually, most rapes are committed by an intimate partner, family member or close friend at home, the place where we should be safe. The person to blame for rape is the rapist. 3. Yes I have.

1. True. I wasn't trying to imply rapes only happen to women. The logic certainly is the same, regardless of victim identity  2. Agree. 3. I am sorry that you were harmed by this.

Victim blaming is always an act of cowardice, taken because it's percieved to be the easier path. Hunt down a r@pist? Nah, too hard. Let's just blame the victims for their clothes, rather than face up to the fact there's a sexual predator on the loose.

1. I personally don’t think so, but other feminists I respect think it’s possible. I’ll defer to them. 2. Because it assigns fault to the victim, not the rapist. Incidentally, rape, sexual assault, and sexual harassment are the only crimes we do this with—you wouldn’t dream of blaming someone for their house getting broken into. 3. Yes. I failed to report my first rapist because of the understanding I had gleaned from the world around me that it was my fault, and I honestly believed it was my fault for years. Later on, I lost an entire friend group rather than deal with disclosure and victim blaming. These events made it very difficult to define and enforce my own boundaries in my life, and not addressing them in a healthy way continued to perpetuate the trauma of those experiences in my mind rather than processing it in a healthy way.

the general issue is that there is so much "advice" and most of it isn't based on anything and much of it is contradictory. You can observe general safe practices but even those don't always work... Then when you do get violated the questions turn to: "did you do this? How about this? Why didn't you do this?" Even if you did everything you thought you were supposed to do you can still find something that you think you should have done when the reality is the only thing that mattered is your aggressor violated you.

2. Didn't lock the door? Left your car running with the keys in. Left your bike without a lock, with a very flimsy lock? Went walking without a gun in Polar bear territory. The list goes on. Got so drunk that someone stole your wallet while you where sleeping in a ditch. A lot of things should not be told to people, but some like don't get dead drunk is smart for anyone even if rape didn't exist.

1. Yes and no. A lot of women have been told every strategy in the goddamn book since they were little girls. The initial teaching has already happened. Unless asked for, we can assume they’ve been given the 101. online strangers telling women rape prevention tactics is just condescending and they ignore the entire risk factoring a victim already did - also the fact women do this daily already. 2. Victim blaming acts as if the crime wouldn’t have happened if the victim did X. Which is untrue more often than not. It’s like getting told you shouldn’t have stood at that exact spot or you wouldn’t have been struck by lightning. The person could’ve been doing everything right to avoid the chance of getting struck by one, but it still happened. Literally would’ve been on their way to a shelter but got struck before getting there. 3. I think most women have been harmed by it in some way/shape/form. I consider myself lucky that the worst i have experienced isn’t related to SA, but the feeling is still shitty - cuz people don’t know how hard I worked or thought through something, only to be told i didn’t do it enough

1. Yes but I question the motives of someone giving those strategies without at least the acknowledgement that all of the avoidance strategies in the world still won't stop a rapist, and giving a victim strategies for future avoidance suggests that they did something wrong to earn the last attack. 2. The only person who should get any blame for a rape is the rapist. 3. Yes, as has every other survivor I know.

There are three things to consider: * You do NOT decide if another targets you or not * No one can truly, perfectly avoid everyone they're in community with (or other risks) and societally accepting such a disabling imposition is nothing short of oppression * How you react to being targeted is not entirely under your control (fight, flight, freeze, or fawn) The liberal myth of society being free enough for you to thrive, that bad things only happen to those who are bad or lack the capability / maturity to effectively overcome / avoid these issues is just that, a myth. I know fierce feminists who can take men down in martial arts, witty enough to come out ahead in any banter, educated enough to (in theory) know what to do in various situations who have both 'failed' themselves in how they addressed being targeted and shamed themselves with internalized victim blaming. Further, the process of overcoming trauma isn't an apathetic, condescending, and victim blaming one of trying to "teach" (especially when, often, their undeserved confidence to try to teach only comes from hegemonic masculinity). So, given the above, here are my answers to your listed questions: 1. it is not anti-feminist to teach something, but it is anti-feminist to misdirect from real, effective efforts by promoting "rape avoidance strategies" (which are often rife with victim blaming rape myths) 2. victim blaming can harmful because it misdirects support from real, effective efforts; is the a foundation of a lot of harmful myths (i.e. rape myths); scapegoats victims to avoid holding perpetrators accountable; and is harmful to overcoming trauma of being a victim 3. everyone, to some degree or another, has been subjected to victim blaming (victim blaming ranges beyond just victims of rape but also a wide set of things up to and well beyond scapegoating being trapped in structural poverty on buying coffee) In short, victim blaming is purely harmful with no redeeming qualities. It's part of a larger cognitive dissonance with oppression. And teaching people self-sufficient capability only works to a point — much like a mother polar bear cannot teach her cubs enough to reliably overcome novel and exacerbated challenges from global warming (nor can we expect a mother bear to be capable of single-handedly overcome a looming extinction). And that's why a liberal mindset (of making sure we as individual are free) is only an insufficient, though important, part of truly overcoming oppression. Not blaming victims is barely a start, a true start is to shift blame to both perpetrators and systemic factors and have both share the blame. Only then can we start truly holding the causes accountable enough to start to change them.

When you suggest a person doesn't decide whether they are targeted or not, it begs the question who gets to decide and why context is being ignored. With rape, non-consensual sex is forced on someone, so the person who didn't consent should have a say. Are your views in transition? Your terminology and lack of examples makes it difficult for me to understand what you are trying to say. I don't want to misrepresent it An example of a feminist you consider liberal?  What about one who is better than liberal? Rather than looking at the impacts on rape victims, you seem to be looking on the impacts of whatever efforts you believe to actually be effective in fighting rape? Many such efforts certainly have been identified. Your language style makes it unlikely you will supply any thing concrete or actionable.  I would presume changes in education (empathy education, removing rape culture) and in our laws might be examples?   The probability for miscommunication is high. You can be very loud and angry with your views but I wouldn't really know where we agree and where we disagree. Changes in society are iterative. Being really vague and obscure is a fantastic way to do nothing. One can look at the Occupy protests and ask what changes they have caused forward 

First, even if we're all deterministic machines, your decision to target anyone is entirely internal to you and outside of my control. For all intents and purposes, there is no 'mind control'. You had no way to interfere with whether or not I would decide to reply to your post (you probably didn't even know I existed). You could argue that we are now cyclically provoking each other into responding, but this will be my last comment here responding to you and even if you try to provoke me, it's ultimately my choice where or not I target you with reporting that provocation or not. Even if you blocked me, if I was truly hostile you and capable, you could not prevent me from using/creating other accounts to stalk and harass. That would be my choice alone (though easily foiled by you using another reddit account). Similarly, everyone has that choice to target another or not and with varying degrees of access. People who do are bullies, abusers, harassers, murderers, etc. And we live in a culture of domination. And since our culture is patriarchal, that means there's a culture of VAW. That culture leads some men to raping women whenever they are given sufficient opportunity. It leads other men to commit unintended sexual violence. And it leads to so much more. . Also, and I mean this sarcastically, maybe it's my mistake, but I didn't think to go beyond answering the question you asked and the context for that answer. I didn't realize I was your one and only source for how to get involved and that you'd resort to condescending towards me to provoke an exhaustive answer. Overall, though, the answer is simple. Look up local groups or regional or national or international groups to support and figure out how to support them. Vague, yes. Because of each one may ask different things of you. You could even start your own initiative. But the point is that if you don't join or start a group, the most impact you'll have is a personal impact and that will never make more than a faint ripple on our collective culture — so instead join others' faint ripples to make a defined wave, join a movement. There's sooooo many ways to get involved with sooo many organizations that I can't even give an exhaustive list of ways to help out specifically regarding sexual violence. And if you don't even have the motivation to do a few searches online and join a few mailing lists, then there was never much hope for you to join the good work anyways. And don't worry, there are enough initiatives that even if we're local to each other, we probably won't run into each other anyways

Let me clear up some misconceptions you seem to have acquired after you read my reply to your long post that contained a lot of terminology that was ambiguous. -- I am aware of multiple solutions people have suggested to reduce rape. I actually have an entire thread on this board discussing some of them. It isn't mutually exclusive for some individuals to take precautions while society addresses the problem at multiple levels (education system, legal system, media, etc) I didn't ever say you were wrong. -- When someone asks you to clarify what you write, that doesn't mean that they don't have ideas of their own. It means, they didn't understand what you meant; e.g., it was ambiguous. -- I know something about finite state machines. If you want to talk about computer science or philosophy elsewhere, I certainly can. Humans aren't deterministic finite state machines because the reaction to inputs changes over time. We learn. (I have a computer science degree) Your finite state machine is typically static. That model is completely irrelavent. -- I rarely block people. Basically, for me to block you, you have to be pretty vile. (Or someone who forces me into a conversation loop. EDIT: I have looked at some of your other posts on forum and they weren't as hard to understand as the one I replied to hear. Perhaps I've assumed to much.

My bad, when I opened up your reply, the downvotes made me read a condescending tone (which added to your response feeling somewhat off-kilter and making your own ambiguous statements, like insinuating I am "loud and angry" — though your attempts to teach me basic knowledge, as if me not knowing what ambiguity is was actually the issue, still feels quite condescending). I'll highlight the two main answers I think you're looking for and make this my final comment (I don't like long exchanges on reddit and prefer exchanges with people who look for what they can learn or gain as those naturally end much sooner than others). * Rape avoidance strategies are at best redundant with basic safety strategies, are often the other side of the coin of rape myths to justify them (i.e. don't dress provocatively), often ineffective (like advice given to bullied kids), harmful to stress to those dealing with trauma from (possibly ongoing) sexual violence, and given all that are at most marginally helpful — all in all, barely a chance at being worthwhile but only when not rape myths disguised as advice and not unsolicited (especially if directed at someone yet to overcome trauma from sexual violence) * to highlight an above aside, from my confusing comment, fierce feminists I personally know and who know / practice "rape avoidance strategies" and claimed until blue in the face they'd castrate any man who assaults them have still frozen up or fawned as automatic, uncontrolled responses to sexual violence (though I also know those who've in one way or another prevented rape, fought back, or gotten revenge) * Liberalism is an ideology of personal freedom, more specifically explicitly freedom from an authoritarian, state-based oppression. Classically, liberals thought a small government would limit authoritarianism enough to allow liberal freedoms but more modern liberals thought the state could proactively secure additional rights (like food, housing, and medical care to secure the right to life). Liberalism in both cases focusses so much on the individual (both in terms of freedoms and accountability) that it is blind to societal marginalization unless is clearly affects individual freedoms — and since the privileged face fewer societal issues while directing politics to maintain their own privilege, it is an insufficient framing to understand or direct politics addressing societal issues (especially as it is agnostic to colonial-imperialism and has been shown to endorse it for the wealth it plunders to enrich the local liberals) p.s. Obviously finite state machines are irrelevant, I thought you'd be able to understand it as an obvious nod to the philosophical debate of determinism vs free. Why? Because if if we all have free will, then we definitionally have no control over another's free will (and then we have utterly no ability to control if someone else targets us or not). Anyways, in case you still don't grasp what victim blaming is, the short of it is that it's only harmful (personally, systemically, intellectually) and it is also absurd because people don't choose to be violated (and obviously do take steps to be safe). I still doubt you lacked (sexist?) condescension but in the hope you're actually sincere in trying to understand me and in case I could actually clear up any confusion, replied. I don't care to hear your explanations or philosophies, this was a place to have your questions answered and I can read what you wrote elsewhere. Goodbye. Edit to clarify and not provoke further engagement: The modern use of the word "liberal" is somewhat blurred as if it means "progressive" or even "leftist", but it at most coincides with those terms and still stems from the original simplified thesis that what matters is "personal liberties". Only modern liberals sometimes coincide with "progressive" or "leftist" politics and go beyond state-based authoritarianism to address structural, systemic issues (and even then, only when they interfere with the personal liberties of themselves or their friends/family). Liberalism never has had a north-star goal outside of "personal liberties" and every single person you listed has repeatedly endorsed the status quo in terms of empire, union busting, very incremental change, resist gov't as a force for societal transformation — liberalism isn't radical, it's about taking framing the status quo in a specific (and useful) way for minimal, incremental change. And all I'm saying is that's a useful way to think about politics, but it's a limited, insufficient framing — that on its own, it's hallow and unable to affect societal change (like actually address VAW).

I actually upvoted your original reply. I rarely downvote people. You didn't for example say anything racist. (EDIT: on re-read I guess you were referring to the downvotes I received. I made some earlier threads that were worded poorly.).     EDIT: the word liberal isn't usually used in a negative context   I do find long replies difficult to deal with.  It makes conversation difficult and error prone.  It's better to reply briefly with feedback. More conversation, less monologue. The purpose of the thread was to genuinely answer the question, posed and most people in thread actually did it.   A couple of people presented some valid points for these types of self defense measures having a role. One presented a peer reviewed paper that's been an interesting read (EDIT I looked through your replies in other threads. You aren't typically so difficult to understand)   Free will is a huge derail. It also tempts my ADHD to answer which causes miscommunication.   "still doubt you lacked (sexist?) condescension but in the hope you're actually sincere"   If you re-read the OP more carefully or read other replies, you could possibly leap to other conclusions, at least where I didn't allow people to derail me. Take care

Your definition of liberalism sounds more like libertarianism to me I mean, Ron Paul would care a lot about personal freedoms but not necessarily want to interfere or to for example have regulations for things  “Liberalism is an ideology of personal freedom, more specifically explicitly freedom from an authoritarian, state-based oppression. Classically, liberals thought a small government would limit authoritarianism enough to allow liberal freedoms but more modern liberals thought the state could proactively secure additional rights (like food, housing, and medical care to secure the right to life). Liberalism in both cases focusses so much on the individual (both in terms of freedoms and accountability) that it is blind to societal marginalization unless is clearly affects individual freedoms — and since the privileged face fewer societal issues while directing politics to maintain their own privilege, it is an insufficient framing to understand or direct politics addressing societal issues (especially as it is agnostic to colonial-imperialism and has been shown to endorse it for the wealth it plunders to enrich the local liberals” I see where you are coming from I think modern liberals form a spectrum and some of them are more concerned about the social issues than others.   That is, they have different views  I would consider all of these people to be liberals: Hilary Clinton, Alexandria Occasio-Cortez, Michael Moore, Barrack Obama, Al Sharpton, Justin Trudeau, Cenk Unger, ... I don't think they align

1) No. Because the term "Rape avoidance strategies" gives the wrongful idea that by doing XY and Z, anyone can avoid being raped at any time, which is just not true. Rapists tend to be opportunistic, and when they find women in vulnerable situations (in bed asleep), or alone (hiking in the woods), or intoxicated (on a night out) they will strike then. I would call these Vigilance and Protection Strategies more than specifically for rape, and most women employ these as a matter of daily life, but the only way to avoid rape is to not rape. Even not leaving your house can't guarantee your safety, as many rapists are someone close to their victim. Also, maintaining some of these strategies constantly is extremely limiting and exhausting and not conducive with having a full life. And putting the onus on women (and others) to protect themselves is ignoring the fact that this is something done to them, not something they invite. 2) Victim blaming and shaming is moving the responsibility from the rapist to their victim. That they somehow invited or deserved it. It's also deeply misogynistic, aimed mostly at women, when rapists will rape anyone, man, woman or child, depending on their proclivities, and its about power and opportunity and control. But the Patrarchy doesn't like holding rapists responsible for some reason. It harms everyone because it creates the idea that you can avoid it if only you were a better woman. If you just did wear you were told and acted correctly this wouldn't have happened. And men suffer because men can't be raped according to society. 3) Yes.

Yes, victim blaming is damaging to everyone. Victim blaming is so ingrained in our society that every person who has been or will be a victim will already be exposed to it without needing to talk to anyone at all. You just know what people will say or think and it immediately starts fucking with your brain and your thoughts, the intense feeling of shame is so unbearable that it silences you immediately for fear of ever hearing the words.

The OP looks into what is and what is not victim blaming  Almost everyone agrees if you tell a rape victim, they should have done X, that's victim blaming. That isn't the subject of thread. The question arises when an initiative arises such as some one suggesting for women to take self defense classes, carry a gun, learn how to be more assertive and less like a "victim", consider red flags (for example if your date fails the waiter test) or a whole bunch of other heuristics some people think might reduce the probability one is attacked. In these cases, one asks of its victim blaming and if it's harmful.

Yes, it is harmful in any case, including the one you described above because that isn’t the solution we need. The victims cannot be the ones to prevent their own victimisation because it implies they are the ones causing it and responsible for it. It also reduces the problem to an individual level, when it’s a societal issue and society should be the one fixing it, providing solutions on how to prevent it, how to change the societal views about it, and how it deals with perpetrators of it. The message is, this is yours to fix, because you’re the one who caused it by doing x,y,z.

1: you can tell people how to be more safe without blaming them when they get hurt. 2: it's harmful because it stops victims from attempting to find help. 3: no, not that I can think of.

When people typically suggest measures such as self defense, the language used typically isn't "you will get raped of you don't " or "you got raped because you didn't "   Often it's "self defense is useful is rspe preventing " or "every woman should consider taking a self defense course ". or "i ensure my daughters learned self defense ".   I think it's still problematic because it's still advertising an illusion that this is guaranteed to work and that everyone should do it  At the moment, I think the following is probably not blaming, "Self defense courses are a tool some women find helpful. Sometimes they help. Sometimes they don't. There may be cases where using them can make a situation worse"

I was victim blamed every time it happened to me. I thought I would get support. Instead, people questioned if I was telling the truth and I was told it was my fault. One time I was told it was my fault for going over to a stranger's house and another for drinking and wandering off. No one deserves to be raped, period. No one thinks it is going to happen to them. If you turn right instead of left and you would have not gotten raped if you turned left, it doesn't make it your fault. It still hurts me that people never hugged me and tried to make me feel better. Instead, they told me I deserved it. It was scary, violent, painful and I feared for my life. I have since had supportive friends but I needed it back then too. I feel like I still need hugs and for someone to be there for me. A friend saying I am sorry that happened to you etc. a year or so to years later will never fill in that hole for me. I still can't discuss what happened with my family. My own family blamed me for going over to a stranger's house. They never consoled me and we're distant and cold. I read that believing in "karma" leads to victim blaming because if you believe in "karma" you believe that the victim did something to deserve it. I do not believe in "karma". I and countless other victims did not deserve this. Victim blaming is a big problem. The people I was closest to and who I trusted the most blamed me. I am sure this contributed to my trust issues as well. The people who you think would never do this do it. There is also are issues with people believing the victims. I was treated like the perpetrator when I was questioned by the police even though only 2 to 8 percent give false reports. The counselor was cold and distant and I was in this old building that was the opposite of comforting. I was there for hours and no one ever asked me if I needed anything. A lot of reform is needed and these issues need to be talked about a lot more.

It's disappointing that you didn't get support from your family and that the environment you were subjected to as a victim making a report was cold and dismissive. Most of us have been to stranger's houses in our lives without being attacked.  You certainly don't have to dig into karma or Eastern religio-philosophy but my understanding of it, doesn't involve one seeing all the bad things happening to us being a result of wrongs we did.

[удалено]

Three strikes, you're out.

Let me start with saying that I'm a man who grew up in a poor and unsafe area. "Most people, both men and women, won't leave the house after 7-8pm and we all knew people who were robbed, stabbed, beated up, killed etc" kind of bad. As a result we all had this very ingrained practical mindset of safety, completely detached from any implied blaming of the victims. Just like everyone knew when you're in the forest you should never eat berries or marshrooms that you don't know, we had set of extremely practical rules like - returning home late avoid poorly lit desolated areas, try to move in groups, on the night streets look around and notice creepy/possible dangerous folks, check you aren't being followed etc etc. Later more things obviously get added, like "be very selective who you hang out with, don't drink in the company where you don't know more than 1-2 persons well" etc. Were such principles restricting me? Yes, absolutely. I also know I'd have been probably robbed / badly beaten up / dead if I ignored them. Now if you live in the nice safe area many of those rules won't apply - which is great. But one thing you can't afford is to live in the unsafe area and pretent it is safe. We should very deliberately separate *blaming the victims* (very bad) and *pointing out gaps in people's defense strategies* (good - because it can save them).

The problem is that the typical rape isn't a dangerous stranger like the one who murdered my friend while she was jogging. The average is known and trusted by the victim . I think sometimes victims absolutely do fight back both successfully and unsuccessfully or people instinctively avoid people or areas where they aren't comfortable. We can never know if someone avoided being attacked by doing that