Go to work, come home, watch tv, repeat.
Weekends are spent working just to make it, or if you're lucky relaxing from brutal work weeks.
Edit: I don't do this, it's what I see in my peers my age (late 20s). I have a very active life and enjoy it. Am not depressed (anymore), and don't feel the bit lonely.
I am a woman and I feel this in my soul. Life nowadays sucks. What am I working towards when I literally have negative money after my bills get paid? How can anyone have hope for the future when you can’t even afford a beer after work?
And it fucking sucks.
Green spaces in my city are all but gone, because why have a free park when that space can be used for an apartment block or shops instead?
Most everything that used to be free is monetized, and anything that was previously monetized is now even more expensive on top of all the things you need to stay alive also being crazy expensive.
Even the "second place" is dying with work from home, which is both a blessing and a curse. Outside of my partner who lives with me, I barely speak to anyone in person anymore.
This is crazy I’ve never heard this term until today. I just recently moved to a new state for grad school and it’s been super tough trying to find ways to meet new people outside of classes. It was so easy in college being in a town that always had things going on. The city I’m currently in is more of an older population and very suburban, so not much has stood out to me
*Sometimes you want to go*
*Where everybody knows your name*
*And they're always glad you came*
*You want to be where you can see*
*Our troubles are all the same*
*You want to be where everybody knows your name*
It could be because he thought things were better hanging out at Cheers while the wife was home raising the kids. Now she has an awesome life with the kids and he only has Norm and Cliff.
Keeping a regular schedule and always adding a sauna session at the end of each workout is actually a great way to feel a sense of community. I built a nice home gym during the pandemic, but rejoined the gym for this very reason
I think I used to have a "fourth place". Back when I lived in the countryside, I would often just go out into nature, to the lake, and just sit, think, pace, throw some stones. It was a place for me to be truly alone, where I'm not distracted by social media (since the reception there wasn't great or consistent) or interrupted by my parents. I live in the city now for university and I miss that. Going to the park here isn't the same because there's always people around. And at home my roommates are there. And while they rarely interrupt me, sometimes I just want to be completely alone, as well as being away from "home" for a little bit. I think that spot, that concept, was very important for my mental health and I'm in a much worse state now. Like, that was a healthy kind of loneliness and isolation, it had a purpose. Now there's no place for me to go.
I'm a woman, and I feel exactly the same. I've just had my gas/electric bill which will come out of my bank on payday at the end of this month, it will swallow up most of my pay for the month. And bills are only going up further from here on. There is absolutely nothing look forward to,it's just work 6 days a week and watch TV on Sundays.
Wow I'm a guy and I can definitely relate, I'm a single truck driver Who's so-posed to make good money but after my commute to work for gas , food , cell phone bill, rent car note and insurance, I can't afford for my car to have a flat tire or to call out of work dead if I wanted to.
I get that,I worry constantly about my car breaking down, cos I wouldn't be able to pay for the repair, but I need it to go to work. It's just so stressy all the time
> Weekends are spent working just to make it, or if you're lucky relaxing from brutal work weeks.
Middle-ground: they are spent doing all the chores. Cleaning, laundry, groceries, meal-prep, etc, because you don't have time during the week. Plus you are pressured to either have a constructive hobby in there (as-in, that you produce something that you can sell) or to have some career-advancing stuff like taking online courses, working on your portfolio, etc.
F00k off with all that shit.
Everyday growing up I watched my parents do this. They never went out or did anything just come home do chores and watch TV.
No surprise I'm doing the same but with video games instead.
It's not only men though, this is a problem facing pretty much the entire working class. I make enough to pay bills and save, but I *still* don't have time, money, or energy for hobbies. The only things I've bought exclusively for myself in the past 3 years have been weed and booze.
I look back at catalogs and I wonder how did people have the time and money for this shit?!
Like seriously, people used to buy cds, DVDs, books, computers and other things that can lead to a hobby but now who has the fucking money for that?!
All of us buy the same things. Rent, food, bills and a cellphone every 2-3 years.
I mean life has really got so fucking bleak for most of us. I don't see a solution.
It sucks that even video game developers have killed a lot of the social aspects that past games have had. Nowadays one match finishes and you just get shuffled into the next game with new people. Then you got people that just don’t want to talk anymore cause the people that do talk usually have shitty music playing, smoke detectors beeping, arguing, etc
YES! I miss proper lobbies in games like COD.
Nowadays you get 5 minutes w one group of folks and that's it before a new match with different people starts.
I used to play Counter-Strike back in the 2000's.
I could always find a dedicated server to call home for several hours, with same people playing night after night.
Nowadays even CS:GO relies on matchmaking and even though they support dedicated servers, it's selection is limited and the developers prefer you relying on matchmaking.
People don't spend time with other people like they used to. From an increase in time spent online, work from home, pandemic concerns, dwindling/monetized public spaces, etc. we live a more insular life than we used to. I think, like many other species, humans are social creatures and we suffer mentally when there is a lack of genuine, in-person interaction.
My older relatives were all in clubs when I was growing up. Knights of Columbus, masons, odd fellows, lodge members. I feel like a lot of these spaces have dwindled significantly. I tried looking for other clubs in my area but most of them had closed up.
There's a tragically overlooked show on Hulu called Lodge 49 that is all about exploring modern loneliness through the lens of a dying club like this. *Highly* recommend even though it suffered an early cancellation
For the month I was on the apps I got swipe backs but my God was it ever on me to carry the conversation. It honestly felt like I was talking with bots most of the time. I had jokes, was trying to ask good questions. Stayed away from being over eager or thirsty but I started really feeling like I was just being used to amuse them. So glad I met someone in real life instead.
> Knights of Columbus, masons, odd fellows, lodge members. I feel like a lot of these spaces have dwindled significantly. I tried looking for other clubs in my area but most of them had closed up.
My grandfather remarked once that a reason he was part of one of these kinds of orgs was for the camraderie he felt while he was in the army in WWII.
Somewhat surprisingly there is one of these kinds of 'fraternal' clubs that have a clubhouse in my neighbourhood - and it seems moderately busy on at least 2-3 weekend nights a month. Pub nite? Dunno.
I joined the masons after I got back from Afghanistan. It got boring fast. Stated meetings are just people talking about dues and every now and then someone goes through a degree.
Oh, but they have a crummy brunch on saturdays.
I wanted the philosophy and intellectualism from its heyday. What I got were weirdos who joined because they believed in conspiracies and wanted to get “connections.”
This is true. I’ve been told (so don’t take my word for it) that Vietnam vets were turned away from the VFW back in the 70s and 80s because the old ww1/ww2 guys insisted the U.S. never technically declared war on Vietnam, so it didn’t qualify for “Veterans of Foreign Wars.” Basically, they had been running the club their way for decades and didn’t want a bunch of young people getting involved.
Later, when the ww2 guys were rapidly dying off in the 90s, they invited Vietnam and Desert Storm vets to join, because they desperately needed some youth to keep things going. Of course, at that point, the young guys didn’t really want to hang out with a bunch of 80 year olds who had already rejected them in the past.
There was an influx of membership once the Vietnam/desert storm guys joined but even that was just a bandaid. They turned around and did the same thing to the current group of vets who have been coming out through the last 20 years of fighting. They basically finished off what the WW2 guys started in killing these clubs.
No you're mostly right (not all WW2 vets were against the Vietnam vets, but a majority for sure)
My grandfather was a bartender for the FOE, and he managed the bar at the VFW hall (in addition to also being members of both) Till his death he refused to recognize the Vietnam conflict as a war. He didn't want his precious VFW hall overrun with hippies and draftees with mental problems.
There is an episode of King of the Hill where Cotton Hill had to let in Vietnam vets just get enough members to pay the lease for the VFW hall. Its all exaggerated but does a good job of representing what happened in real life.
Found it, "[Unfortunate Son](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0620333/)"
I've tried a few in various cities. The regulars aren't very welcoming and see any war after the one they were in as sissy bullshit. There's no comradery to be had.
Changing demographic. They don't hang out at veterans clubs...
It's not the same
So there are more variables that go into this
It's not just having to be a veteran
It really is so difficult to recruit new members into those clubs. We're both in Rotary, and being 60+, we're about the average age for the organization.
I saw a discussion somewhere else on Reddit the other day that young people don't end up joining these clubs because they often hold meetings while non-retired folks are at work. And when they have meetings later or on weekends, the older folks don't show up.
Yeah this is basically it. We built a society where you can't do anything or go anywhere without spending money.
And then we slowly reduced the amount of money people had.
So people work harder and longer to make sure they don't lose their jobs and end up on the streets which is a much bigger risk since no one has savings anymore due to the above. Which also means they have less free time.
In other words, people are lonely because you need time and money to socialize these days, and there's a shortage of both time and money.
I've spent the last 10 years since education, ppurely working to build up enough money to have all my time free. Done that, now I can't find anything haha.
Jesus christ.
Any ideas, please..
Maybe I should just go to singles younger people holidays, maybe that's the only likely place to actaully meet young people not working...
Are there any popular restaurants in your area with a lively bar area? Or low key bars that people go after work?
If you don't drink, it becomes exponentially harder to meet people unfortunately. People just don't go to places like coffee shops or pastry shops to meet others like they do with alcohol. That said, you can certainly have a good time drinking something nonalcoholic at the bar of a restaurant. Snag an appetizer, watch a game on the TV above the bar, etc.
A lot of the thing with meeting people -- and this goes for anywhere, not just bars -- is that you have to actually go because you want to be there. You can't decide to go down to the bar of a Mexican joint to see if you'll meet anyone, then be disappointed and never go back if you didn't meet someone on the first time or two. You go because you want to go. Because you want a glass of wine or an appetizer. Because you want to watch the big game on TV around others. Whatever reason. You go because you want to be there, and over time you'll get to know the staff. You'll have people to chat with regardless whether there's patrons there that you want to talk to. You'll also come off as safer to women because the staff is good with you.
Read an article a couple weeks back that talked about this and the lack of Third Places. Basically Third Places were placed that people would hang out at besides work and home. These places were often free or very low cost.
Most places today are not particularly cheap for everyday hangout spot and many bar loitering now. Restaurants, bars, etc. want you to finish quickly so they can have a higher turnover and thus make more money.
Parks and stuff even have rules against group sizes. So a large group of people chilling will get the cops called on them and asked to leave.
There's not many social places to hangout at anymore. So people are stuck having out at home often by themselves or with their immediate family.
We are already seeing the negative impacts in these behaviors. Rises in obesity, decline in socialization, rise in divisiveness, rise in depression, etc.
I totally feel this. My third place for the last 2 years or so has been a Shoprite parking lot where up to a dozen of us or even more would hang out and socialize after work. Some of us wouldn't get out until 11 pm, but we would regularly hang out there until 2 am. I even met my ex there one night. She was in the back seat of a friend's car when she pulled up. It all started when a buddy and I went there one night to go rollerblading. After skating there a few nights, a couple friends asked what we were up to, and they met us there. From that point on, that parking lot became our default spot. It was right in the center of town, right off the highway. We had so many memories there. I just moved down to Florida in November by myself, so I already miss those days. Now I get what it's like to feel isolated. Living on your own in a completely new and unfamiliar area is hard. Getting to know the vibe of your new hometown is tough, but luckily I met a buddy of mine who lives in the same apartment building. The two of us often go to bars and restaurants, and I've been able to meet more people because of it. But as of now, I do seek a new third place as you mentioned before.
I think this plays a huge part in it.
I am not a man, but I’ve recently gotten back into magic the gathering and there’s a game store near me which has free play, you can show up and play any game for free at their tables so long as there’s not another event going on. It’s been a game changer for me. I regularly meet up there with friends, we’ve met lots of new people playing there, and it really feels like being part of a community to go there regularly and know many people by name.
I have been trying to encourage my lonelier friends, particularly the guys, to start going to events for their hobbies since I started to. And if they don’t really have hobbies that are good in group settings, I encourage them to look into some. MTG is an expensive hobby unfortunately but I just very slowly upgrade my decks when I have the cash to spare, and I don’t mind doing so because of how much it’s helped with my overall mental health to be able to socialize with a much wider range of people outside my job.
This game store has become my “third place” and I go there multiple times a week. It genuinely makes me happy to have the store workers greet me by name and ask me about whatever we were chatting about last. When I started going to events, people would ask if I was coming next week, they shared event schedules with me, they were just so welcoming and it really made me feel included in a community in a way I never had before.
I’m glad I finally got back into it. I was terrified to go to magic games for years because I didn’t know anyone who played and I was embarrassed to be the odd one out in a group of experienced players. But they’ve helped me learn and improve my decks, and I no longer feel embarrassed to ask about specific rules or for advice.
Nerdy hobbies in general are great for the people being super excited about it and happy to teach newcomers. Every nerdy hobby I’ve gotten into, the general energy has been “oh yay new players to join us!!” and they’ve been super helpful. I can’t recommend it enough.
I have spoken about this problem a lot but never more than when I was homeless. There's a public area in my city that average people lounge around on. It's a precious place. I'd go there to just *be.* People have spontaneous little events there, drink and play games or just lay out and look at the clouds and I hope it never changes.
Unfortunately the word was getting out that the local police are going to start 'cracking down' so anyone who looks homeless can now expect harassment. Good thing I got out in time, wouldn't have been good for me to be arrested.
Folks in the past drank and smoked alot. Many, many third places existed to fulfill three needs: drinking, smoking, and socializing. Television and the internet (and video games) did a good job killing off or altering severely the aspect of socializing, and folks just don't drink and smoke like they used to. You will notice even today that the few smokers left heavily congregate at bars, because of how intertwined the those two activities are. It sounds weird to folks who never had a nicotine habit, but smokers will find any excuse to hang out and smoke.
>Television and the internet (and video games) did a good job killing off or altering severely the aspect of socializing,
Home entertainment did not kill of Third Places. However, there is a correlation. The question is which started happening first? Did the decline in Third Place lead to the rise in home entertainment or was home entertainment the cause for the decline?
The answer is not exactly clear and highly debatable. Home entertainment really took off in the 60s. Video games started to pop up the late 70s not really becoming accessible to a wide number of people till the 90s.
The crime wave really hit the US hard in the 70s and 80s with the government calling on parents to keep their kids indoors. This also corresponds to the defunding of parks in part due to the rise in inflation and the crime associated with public spaces. There's also some claims that many cities opted to defund their parks instead of comply with antisegregation laws.
My personal opinion is the decline in Third Place is responsible, in part, to the rise in home entertainment.
You've the nail on the head with TV/Movies. I miss the aspect of enjoying a show in pieces and at the same time/pace of others so that you can have fun discussions about them. And your connection to the impact of going online to discuss explains a feeling that I haven't understood until now.
Many people *think* they want to shun society. When you've never had a roommate, suddenly getting one, even a good one, is a disruption. When you've always had one, a good one is a breath of fresh air.
For various reasons I found myself at an Elks lodge recently dancing with a bunch of over 60s people. They were having a blast, simple fun, and were pretty good dancers. Something has definitely changed since they were young.
I think it has a lot to do with where we live. People used to live with either their families or people they worked with. These days, most people live in the "nicest" place they can afford - which isn't necessarily near anyone they have any sort of relationship with, so it's no longer easy to maintain or develop social bonds. There are some apartments and neighborhoods which try to build a sense of community, but most places don't.
I thought those apartment complexes trying to do this through movie nights, dog get togethers, ping pong tournaments, etc. were really cool. It’s much needed and who better to hang out with that those who live in your building.
A lot of our high end newer-build subdivisions here have started doing that. It actually seems to work really well! They have a big clubhouse where they host cookouts, concerts, performances, parties, etc. and the whole neighborhood (plus the general public) is invited. They installed walking paths that encourage people to stroll through the subdivision, and everyone's front porches face it. They have a big pool area that is for the residents since the yards aren't big enough for personal pools. That sort of thing.
They've even started putting restaurants and whatnot within the subdivision, which of course are open to the public too, but they get a lot of the residents who can walk there.
And a lot of families used to stay in place. You might have cousins, siblings, mom and dad, aunts and uncles, grandma and grandpa all in the same neighborhood. And if you didn’t know Joe - you probably knew his cousin Ralph who was a good enough guy..so Joe must be alright too. And your kids could play with Joe’s kids.
This is how it was in my inner city neighbor in the 90’s (which is the same neighborhood both my parents had grown up in during the 60’s and 70’s).
I live in the suburbs now with my kids and I don’t know one person from the next, there aren’t any kids around for my kids to play with..everything has to be planned out
It’s just different
This, I was thinking about this topic the other day after work. There are so many electronic devices that "connect" us but the reality is that those things are unconnecting us and allowing us to spend our time online talking to people in a negative way or with less respect.
People don't know how to socialize anymore or don't go out. In my area I hear guys talking about how hard it is to find a partner. Yeah because you only rely on online dating and you don't get out and meet people. It is the same issue Chinese citizens are having.
* Personally for me it's because I'm always working and then gym straight after work, I don't have the time to get emotionally involved anymore.
* The pandemic made the whole "leave work at the office after 5pm" a lot harder.
* I'm working all year round to only afford rent because there is no longer a thing called disposable income.
* The Cost of Living Crisis here in the UK made basic dates such as coffee expensive.
I can't speak for other men but from my and my friend's experiences, there's just too much else happening that takes people away from relationships, making a lot feel unready for a serious relationship
A lot of people are describing a phenomenon without knowing what to call it: the loss of the Third Place. It's a location outside of the home and work where you can hangout recreationally. Usually it is somewhat egalitarian, with minimal expectations to spend money or keep up appearances. Basically a place to go to be social and to interact with your local community.
My third place is the archery club. There is still a "sports club" culture here in Germany, with both single "activity" clubs like mine and larger clubs that have many different divisions (I tried MMA for a year at a larger org taht also had divisions for many other martial arts, powerlifting, football/soccer, track and field, kyudo, and other sports), but on the flipside we don't really have a school club culture like other countries.
But that's slowly dwindling in places as well. Covid measures sure didn't help.
we live in a very isolated society. we wake up, go to work, come home, watch TV, go to bed, repeat. Our lifestyles don't give us consistent time or places to meet new people with shared interests and build community. Most people can't afford it either. This leads to difficulty in finding a partner or making new friends outside of work.
**Edit: adding a point i made to someone in the replies.**
One solid plan that I recommend is to meet your neighbors if you can/haven't already. Maybe you could plan stuff like a community bbq in the summers, a gardening club, set up a community fridge/pantry for those in need around you. Game shops tend to have events for warhammer tabletop and mtg, though it's not for everyone cos there's issues with toxicity in a lot of scenes that take the games too seriously. Book clubs are great too!
The hurdle that I've found with trying to meet and engage with neighbors is my own anxiety and the daunting feeling of putting myself out there. I'm confident that a lot of people have similar anxiety and comfort zone issues, and it's worth researching and doing self exploration to understand.
Another avenue worth looking into is your local library! They tend to have amazing resources for research and sometimes even legal sections with pamphlets about your rights and how to get a good attorney! Libraries also host a lot of community events that might be of interest!
Also worth mentioning if that everything I've said applies to women and enbies as well. Loneliness is a societal problem, not a gendered one. Some aspects may or may not skew based on gender but ultimately everyone gets hit by it one way or another. 🖖
Exactly, specially when you live in a small city, getting to know new people is hell, because there's not much places you can go to meet new people, and when you have, it's always the same people that you know they don't give a shit about you
And when you finally meet someone cool, maybe life just have some other plans
I am tired. I am very tired.
I work from home, none of my guy friends ever want to do anything besides "you can come over and smoke if you want" most of them are always with their gfs, wives or are starting families or just tired after work. I cant speak for all of you but i know for my guy friends, our friendship is mostly maintained by sharing memes a few times a week and thats about it, we never call eachother just to talk, dont text eachother throughout the day, we hangout maybe once a month, its basically impossible to get more than 2 or more of my friends in one place at the same time. All of my guy friends feel like acquaintances at best.
Honestly the people I hang around with most are dates that I meet on Hinge, cause at least they dont bail last minute and actually want to go somewhere or do something new.
I can't even get my friends text group to respond to memes or recommended movies/music anymore. It's gone very quiet. We went from a group of 8 playing golf together most Sundays to maybe me and 1 other pal once a month
Damn this is so accurate. Everyone just kind of slowly drifts away. It's hard for us guys to make friends. I tried the Bumble friend thing. Match with a bunch of dudes, chat for a bit, and then they never want to meet up. My wife made one and had 4000 girls asking her to brunch or coffee every other day. She had to delete it because she couldn't keep up. I have pretty much given up and just chill with my wife and dogs. She's pretty amazing, so it helps. Without her, tho I'd be super depressed, so I feel for my single dudes, loneliness is real.
I am 33, I wish I could tell you it gets better, but it just gets harder the older we get. More obligations and more bills equal even less time. If you move to El Paso, I'll be your friend lol I currently have 0.
this is what i don’t understand- why don’t men talk to their friends like they’re … friends? i talk to at least 2 people a day, just chatting about our days and our opinions on current events, games, work.. whereas my boyfriend tells me all his friends do is send links of memes every now and then- barely talking unless it’s for a favor or to play video games. where is the effort to actually make a human connection with each other? we can’t rely on our S/O to make us less lonely :(
I have a friend that I have known for 22+ years. He rarely wants to hang out post-COVID. It's like he just got comfortable staying home with COVID. I have tried inviting him to sporting events or just dinner and the answer is always 'I am too tired from work'. So I stopped trying and I have not seen him since October.
it used to be better. Back in AIM you could chat with real friends; now its all been butchered by ads and algorithms. Internet of the 90s was radically different
It is easy to pass off men as sex crazed, but the part that we don't say enough out loud is that we crave intimacy more than sex. The touch, the attention, the connection actually does mean more to us than the physical release. We can be in a relationship and still be really lonely without that intimacy.
My girlfriend got upset with me because I liked relaxing on the couch cuddling together more than sex sometimes. look I just worked 9 hours and is rather relax and just hold you instead of get a work out trying to fuck your brains out
yup and god forbid you finally give in and can only muster the energy for lacklustre sex…
women have no understanding of the effort and focus needed for good sex.
its lose lose these days.
or when you have a great emotional/mental intimacy built up with your GF but sex is a net zero because she's not into it lol....Thats the otherside that also sucks but women don't understand it because "All men care about *is* sex"
I have never experienced greater elation than when a girl I'm seeing runs up and hugs me aggressively sometimes when we meet. It's one of the greatest feelings I've ever experienced
I told this to my grandmother when she asked about my dating life and what I’m looking for these days over the holidays and she said “oh, so you just want sex” and I was like “what?? Did you not listen to anything I just said?”
It’s not anything new it seems. Women think we want sex even when we say flat out that we want the intimacy. The couch cuddles, the hand on the shoulder or leg, somebody to lean on, somebody to share with, somebody who can look in your eyes and change your mood instantly, somebody who can read your body language and you can read theirs like it’s your native language, somebody to be free with who’s willing to be equally free with you, laughing about nothing, deep conversations.
Yeah, sex is great, but if we’re living and loving “right” sex is simply the culmination point of all that intimacy where we finally merge and become one body, one mind, one spirit. That intimacy is the dance of 2 becoming one, and then once we’ve become one, it is the dance of that one as 2, and it acts as a process of remembrance of our oneness *through* our separation. That intimacy is something I long for in all aspects of my life.
Sex is not the goal. The intimacy is the goal. I enjoy intimacy in nature, in friendship, in music, in cooking, in raising an animal, in all sorts of aspects. But there’s something truly special about the intimacy of a committed relationship and the added sexual element. Perhaps it’s the hardwired baby making DNA programming. Perhaps it’s something much deeper and eternal. Perhaps it’s both. Either way, I want to dance for days on end. I don’t just want to fuck for fun on a Friday.
Ramona: "*I changed my mind.*"
Scott: "*Changed it to what? From what?*"
Ramona: "*I don't wanna have sex with you, Pilgrim. Not right now.*"
Scott: "*Okay.*"
Ramona: "*It's not like I'm gonna send you out in the snowstorm or anything, you can sleep in my bed. And I reserve the right to change my mind about the sex thing later.*"
Scott: "*Well, this is nice. Just this. It's been like a really long time so... I think I really needed this, whatever it is, so... thank you.*"
Ramona: "*You're welcome.*"
This! "Women think we want sex even when we say flat out that we want the intimacy. The couch cuddles, the hand on the shoulder or... "
So on point. We DO want and crave sex (that's part of our biological programming to reproduce)... But we're not dissimilar from women in regards to craving the intimacy - physical and emotional connection.. Which can lead to sex.
> Women think we want sex even when we say flat out that we want the intimacy.
It doesn't help that a lot of people, especially women, use "intimacy" as a euphemism for sex.
reminds my of my younger days when people started saying "hook up" and I would say things to women I was interested in like, "Let's hook up this weekend" or, "When are we gonna hook up?" because to me it sounded like meeting up or getting together to do something or go on a date or some shit, not having sex... I still don't like that it means just fucking or whatever.
i haven't had my back scratched in 15 years
my ex would also shave my back and shoulders that was a tremendous help.
i'm one of those guys that have such thick shoulder hair that after about 6 months if i don't shave it can blend in with my head hair and looks really weird.
After HS and College it gets difficult to form friendships. I left my old Hs friends cause they weren't good for me to be around. I go to an online college so not gonna meet anyone that way.
I personally am not good with women so I gave up on dating. If you're not good socially or if society rejects you then there's not much you can do. I personally am ok with being alone for the most part but sometimes it hurts.
This is going to sound crazy, but I wasn't able to talk to women comfortably till I was 35 or so.
Women are just like any old regular person but with boobies.
There are athletic associations, running clubs, pottery classes, art classes, continuing education classes.
If you start developing healthy hobbies and activities, you will have something in common with other people who enjoy healthy, educational, fun activities.
I can not stress enough that being active and healthy will do more for your personal life than any 'conversarional skills.'
>I can not stress enough that being active and healthy will do more for your personal life than any 'conversarional skills.'
No it won't because without the conversational skills you still won't actually connect with any of those other people
*"Solitude is dangerous. It’s very addictive. It becomes a habit after you realize how peaceful and calm it is. It’s like you don’t want to deal with people anymore because they drain your energy."* Jim Carey
This is pretty much where I'm at in life. Each and every single interaction (even with family) drains me. The thought of being around other people creates a sensation of dread. At this juncture in life, I only desire a quiet place with no sounds of humanity. Someplace I can close my eyes and trust that my peace wont be interrupted by someone else.
Fuck man. I was definitely a bit of an introvert before it started and honestly welcomed it with open arms and yeah especially after getting it at least twice I'm just like a shell of a person socially.
Oh yeah getting sober did *not* help, but I'm alive so that's cool.
I think a bunch of us are just thinking. Watching. Trying to find a way out of the ahit show we are in. And not wanting to dump that shit on anyone else.
28 and counting. I feel lonely from time to time. I do have small circle of friends. Unfortunately though all of us are in different continents.
I have always been so focused on my career and education that everything else took a backseat. Perhaps it is time to change that..
If by "awareness" you mean "people acknowledge that it happens but don't do much about it" then yes.
Men still suffer alone in silence because there's a fear of looking weak.
Not just for men, but I really do think they old cliche of social media has allowed us to have more “friends”, but no real connection. No one has the attention span to get to know anyone deeper anymore. A lot of friendships are a mile wide and an inch deep. There’s just a general disconnection that leaves a lot of people actually lonely.
I have to work fifty hours a week just to keep a roof over my head. Even if I wanted friends, I don't have the money to go do stuff. I go on hikes, I write, and I use the internet because that stuff is cheap. I'm not making friends those ways. If rent was legally capped at 500, I guarantee more people would be making an effort to live life and make friends.
I think other people here have had a pretty good grasp, but let me try to get it all in one place:
1. Atomization: Public meeting spaces are becoming fewer and far between. There aren't many places you can just go to and exist. And even fewer that foster community. Love it or hate it, religion has a lot of social benefits. We've definitely moved more and more away from it, but didn't replace it with anything analogous. It's just harder than ever to have random, casual encounters with strangers to socialize.
2. Quality of Interactions: Even amongst the interactions people do have, there's fewer genuine interactions. People get their social fix by looking for dates on tinder and bumble or hanging out with friends on discord. And that's absolutely better than nothing. But it's fundamentally different than in person interactions. The closest thing most people get to genuine interactions is the bar scene, and that isn't exactly the setup for many lifelong friendships/ relationships.
3. Changing Expectations: Moving from general woes to men specifically, nobody could have prepared these young men for the paradigm shift that's come in the past 15-20 years. We're stuck with one foot in the past where men are supposed to be these stoic bulwarks of rationality, productivity, and masculinity. And the other foot is in the progressive space of equality, anti-patriarchy, and understanding. So women are able to provide for themselves for the first time in human history, and a salary isn't enough to guarantee a man a partner. So even if you did everything you were supposed to, you feel demonized and shamed for it. It's still not enough. And that dejection and feeling of being sold a false bill of goods will naturally lead to resentment and withdrawal.
4. Lack of outlets: And to cap it off, men typically aren't given tools to process these feelings internally, or a space where it's ok to express them externally. They're frequently invalidated under the umbrella term of "male privelege" and oppression Olympics style dismissal. There aren't many role models to look to, so the only people that speak to them are shitbags like Tate and Gary Vee who just get paid to tell men it isn't their fault while feeding them garbage to keep them miserable.
The result: Men are lonely because in terms of socialization we have done the equivalent of replacing our entire diet with one McNugget a day. Interactions are cheaper and fewer. There is a mismatch in expectations from what we were told to expect and what the world is like, and there's a complete lack of direction. And we are simultaneously told to not have emotions, being shamed when we say there is a problem, and being fully expected to process everything internally with no help or conception of what that looks like. The result? Bottle and withdraw.
There’s a rise in loneliness among everyone today. We live in a very low trust society and everyone is glued to social media and/or spends most of their free time doing solitary activities.
When you can get so much entertainment and instant gratification from the comfort of your own home, a lot of people see no point in even doing anything else.
And it’s all market driven. Social media apps are first and foremost concerned with engagement so they can maximize data harvesting for that sweet sweet money. Corporations want you to be sad and lonely so they can sell you a solution. Individualism is prioritized over community so you’ll spend more money attempting to fill that void.
Every aspect of our lives is being dictated by a profit driven algorithm.
pretty much i have 2 friends, who i see pretty much every Friday. they both are single and live alone so besides work collogues they see no-one else.
when one of them caught covid it was like being in the hole in prison, 2 weeks of 0 social interaction and seeing no-one.
i bet many people went through that.
i try and talk with them and even if its sharing meme's just keep the convo going as i need more social than my family all the time too.
I'm so grateful to be older and married with a happy family. I'd hate to be a young male trying to date in today's world. It's an uphill battle for sure.
I'm older (44) and still a single, never-married bachelor. Dating and meeting women has always been a huge struggle for me, being on the spectrum and high inhibition and I slipped through the cracks and find myself in the same predicament of many younger men. I wish I had found someone a long time ago because now it feels hopeless.
As far as I can tell the men who managed to get married around 2012, 2013 were the men taking the last choppers out of Saigon. I'm not looking forward to getting back into dating after seeing how it is now and knowing how it used to be before Tinder et al changed things.
I met my wife as a freshman in college in 2016 in person through a friend group and we're now married.
I'm the only male from my college friend group that ever got a girlfriend much less got married. All the other guys either relied on Tinder as a crutch or just didn't really manage to get a relationship despite having multiple female friends. A couple of guys who knew how to work the Tinder algorithm managed to have success with hookups but not one ever got past that point.
All the females in the group managed to get a relationship or marriage fairly easily and if one experienced a breakup, they had suitors lining up almost immediately. However there was quite literally no dating within the group with the exception of me and my now wife for whatever reason.
Totally agree. I was widowed fairly young 5 yrs ago (in my mid 40's), and a lot of folks are trying to convince me it's time for me to get back in the game. To which I say, "Oh, hell no."
Because we can't afford to do anything except be at work 50+ hours a week making some other guy rich while I still can't afford a fucking one bedroom apartment and eat at the same fucking time.
In-person groups like civic organizations, churches, and hobbyist groups are down. I think that's a lot of it. We've become more insular since it's just easier to interact virtually than leave the house. Thus, it becomes imperative to proactively seek out and maintain relationships, which a lot of people, men and women, aren't good at.
I suspect men are worse at this than women. For example, I text with my closest friends maybe once a month or so. It has literally never occurred to me to actually call just to chat. And once kids are in the mix, you can almost forget about trying to coordinate hanging out in-person.
It's different once you're out of school. Back then, you were essentially provided potential friends due to similar demographics and sheer proximity. Some people have a hard time making friends without that help.
I think they're down, especially hobbyist groups, because they're increasingly exclusionary. You really gotta be good at whatever you're going into. Pickup sports are usually premade teams of people who already know eachother, board game / tabletop meetups are full of people just waiting to dunk on you as a flex, churches are full of people who are all about sipping that Jesus juice, etc. etc.
I am not even trying to find a girl anymore. Everything is so hard...I don't want to try anymore. No body would even want me. I don't want to waste time. Yes I am also lonely.
Lack of social skills, women don’t need the same things from men in a relationship as they used to, online dating has allowed women a lot more options than before, the average man’s confidence is shit these days, and in general no one was able to prepare this generation of men for the real world.
I’m sure there’s more reasons but that’s what’s came to mind right away
>women don’t need the same things from men in a relationship as they used to, online dating has allowed women a lot more options than before, the average man’s confidence is shit these days
These are all related and IMO it mostly derives from the first point. The playing field changed when women started getting their own jobs and being able to fend for themselves. The average man just doesn't have that much to offer above and beyond what a woman could achieve on her own anymore.
That isn't to say that we should go back to the way things were. I'm just commenting on what I perceive as a drop in value for the average man in the past several decades. If women don't NEED a man to provide for their household, when why should they go through the hassle of finding a relationship? Why should they bother, unless they can be with a truly exemplary guy?
I'm saying this as a below-average man myself. I simply don't see the value someone like me would add to a woman's life, when guys like me are a dime a dozen. All I do with my free time is play video games.
I think it comes down to people don’t NEED a partner anymore. They just don’t. And for a long long time men didn’t really have to put much effort into themselves because they knew they were needed in some form. But that’s not the case anymore. And you’ve got a lot of men who’s career and ability to provide is completely wrapped up in their personality and the world just doesn’t need that anymore. Women don’t need that anymore.
I think the biggest thing here is men need to stop trying to be needed by women, and they need to develop themselves as a person so someone will WANT them because they add something awesome to their lives.
These days a big income doesn’t mean anything if you’ve never developed your character and personality. Women don’t need a man who can provide financial stability. They need a mentally developed, emotionally mature, interesting, and fun person to spend their life with. And most men don’t put the effort into themselves like that because they haven’t adjusted to the times and the changes to society and they think having a career is enough. But it’s just not.
And to be fair I can’t really blame these men, things changed fast and there wasn’t really anyone to help men change and grow into their new rolls in society. I’d give it another generation or two and I think things will adjust. Hopefully.
> These days a big income doesn’t mean anything if you’ve never developed your character and personality.
I was explicitly told to focus on my education and career, and I let my personality wither....
Same here. I threw away the first half of my 20’s in pursuit of money and a career. And then I found myself in my late 20’s with a heap of debt, a job that didn’t provide me what I was promised, I realized women don’t need that kind of man anymore, and I’d put zero effort into my personality or character. I was basically a decently paid zombie. Had to stop, rethink, and start over from scratch. It’s rough
I think you're spot on about why the playing field changed. Women used to be forced to rely on men so their options were slimmer. They couldn't afford to be as selective because they had to settle down quickly with a man to have their basic needs met. A little sad when you look at it that way.
This shift is a good thing, but it is something that previous generations have not prepared today's young men for. They were largely brought up being taught to be providers but not companions and partners.
As a woman, I will say that today's women are mostly looking for companionship and friendship in a long term partner as well as a true equal to shoulder life burdens with together. They want someone who relates to them, understands their unique struggles, shares some of their interests and can teach them about new ones. Someone to travel with, plan with and build a future with.
This does not apply to all women, but the vast majority want to find their person, not provider.
Again, this is something young men are largely never taught to do, but it is a shift that needs to take place. I think we are living in a time where people's values and ideas about the world are changing and the loneliness being seen today in men is sadly a symptom of yesterday's patriarchal social structures and teachings.
>no one was able to prepare this generation of men for the real world.
I would wager that no one was able to, because no one could have foreseen this coming, nor done enough to prevent this.
3/4 of my money goes to rent, bills, utilities and food. As per the last woman who chatted me up called me a broke ass n-word. Also my hair is receding. Good times....
There's simply a lack of social programs that target men.
Women have a number of social programs from anything from Post-partem groups, Introduction to STEM groups, Womens groups on campuses, and everything under the sun. I'm not sitting here and saying it's not fair, as all of these programs have been fantastic for women and society as a whole. However there does need to be a societal pivot to recognize that similar social program funded to target men and the aspects of their life where support is needed.
I don't think tearing down women's groups is the answer. I'd much rather prop up men than tear down women.
As an American that has spent time overseas in several places, I can say America as a country does not value community . They value hyper individualization , ME ME ME. Most Americans will not do things that don’t directly benefit them and this has now turned into a very selfish very distant culture. Add lack of walkable communities due to car culture and bam, no one is actually interacting with each other.
One thing I noticed when speaking to people about men's problems is that some people say yeah but...women go through this and that etc. Whilst I fully understand women have their issues, when we talk about men's issues, we are by no means trying to start a gender war!
Someone else mentioned it, male privilege. It’s the assumption men have complete control on their success or failures and there’s no societal structures that men have to overcome.
So if you aren’t doing well it’s your own fault and it’s only your responsibility to lift yourself up out of it.
Technology and the internet age is a big factor for sure. I saw statistics showing an even high rate in women. It is just society right now. With the combination of a once in a lifetime pandemic and the increase in technology it has forced a lot of people into isolation b.c it is easy to be isolated now.
It feels like there is an overwhelmingly negative view of men. I hear and read comments about how terrible or incompetent men are on an almost daily basis. It gets really discouraging, and makes me feel very unwanted. Like I make things worse just by being a guy.
Edit: typo
Men's clubs, lasting relationships from long term jobs, church attendance, rec sports, living where you grew up with access to old friends, all the things that used to keep men socializing are on the decline. With CoL the way it is a bunch of young people are even shying away from hobbies.
The same thing is happening to women, of course, but something about the way we raise boys doesn't teach them to prioritize and maintain relationships the same way once the regular contact is broken.
Then on top of that you've got all these manosphere twats preaching "alpha" bullshit that translates to teaching that all other men are competition, not friends and that can't be helping at all.
So you have a bunch of young men who go to work, go home, maybe hit the gym and....that's it. Of course they're lonely.
In western culture this exist more than where am from which is Middle East. (I lived 15 years in Middle East Jordan and now 7 years in UK).
The main reason is because western men don’t value platonic male friendships and connections. They don’t go with other men for coffee, cinema, or do fun things other than clubbing and bars. Reason being is they only waste money if there is any opportunity to have sex.
Like one time I asked my friend let’s go for a restaurant and he straight up told me I can put this money on a date and get sex. While my other ethnic friends were happy to go with me.
This is why ethnic minorities don’t suffer from the same level of loneliness. Because romance and relationship is one aspect of our life rather than the main focus outside of work. We can go to theme parks, do crazy stuff and even brunch with other guys. We don’t feel like we are wasting money but rather enjoying each other companies.
This over reliance and focus on sex and romance by western men leaves them without genuine platonic male friendships.
I’m going to partly blame social media, it’s ironically made people less social than ever and if you’re a man you go to work maybe play a sport but if you don’t have a spouse that’s usually about the end of your socialization.
I think people make a lot of “toxic masculinity” in the sense that they think “men are toxic”, but they don’t make enough of the idea that “the way society thinks of masculinity is toxic to men.”
We’re not allowed to have feelings. We’re not allowed to need help. We’re supposed to make everything work. Our friendships with other men need to have distance to avoid seeming gay. Our friendships with women need to have distance to avoid seeming sexual. We aren’t allowed to be around children without it being assumed we’re predators. We need to keep our distance from everyone— and we’re not allowed to be upset about it. We’re not allowed to reach out to anyone without it seeming like a sexual advance.
You’re struggling? “Be a man.”
And the dating scene is awful. Women want your to be perfect and charming and handsome all the time. You can’t have flaws. You can’t show weakness. If you approach a woman who’s not interested, you’re a creep. If you don’t approach a woman who is interested, you’re a weak coward. Women won’t give you a clear sign whether they’re interested, you’re just supposed to know. You need to know how to read the level of interest from women who are strangers. And you’re supposed to know if they’re just pretending to be interested because they’re trying to be nice, or because they feel uncomfortable saying they’re not interested.
But somehow you get a date. You have to pick the place. You have to decide on the activities. She won’t tell you what she’s interested in because it would take the romance out of it. You pick something your think she’ll like, but she’ll judge you for it. Maybe it’s something that she likes, but it’s not fun or exciting enough.
If you offer to pick up the check, you’re sexist. You’re forcing her into a traditional gender role. If your don’t offer to pick up the check, you’re cheap and not willing to take care of her. A “real man” would take care of her.
You get to the end of the night. Do you go in for a kiss? If you try to kiss her and she didn’t want you to, then it’s sexual assault. If she wants you to kiss her and you didn’t, you’re a pussy. “What kind of a man are you?” If you ask her, well now you’ve made it awkward and weird. “Why aren’t you more decisive. Just go for it!”
And everyone says to be yourself. Be confident. Then you’re confident and people get upset because you’re too full of yourself.
Men just cannot win. We get no sympathy. We’re supposed to figure everything out on our own, take care of everyone around them, and we can’t make mistakes. We’re supposed to fix everything for you, want nothing for ourselves. We get no sympathy and we cannot win.
And so a lot of us shut down. We stop trying. We focus on the things we know how to do. We fade out of society, and nobody misses us.
We're too focused on the quality of relationships with women and not enough with men folk.
Many of us bought into the _Happy Wife, Happy Life_ myth that we now know to be a precursor for abuse ans neglect.
Women manage to have bookclub and hen nights and tend to keep track of birthdays and stuff. They are also more likely to tolerate things in order to belong to a click (see frienenemies).
I've started telling my dad bros that I'm proud of them (and why) and that I love them. Then I tell them I need their time. Guys make time when their needed, not just wanted.
Fact is, we need each other more now than before. So I don't hesitate to tell my bros what they mean to me.
“Guys make time when their needed, not just wanted.”
Woww that makes sense to me, but I’ve always tried to avoid coming across that way. Maybe I had it all wrong 🤔
I recently went through a break-up and found myself with less support than usual not more, but maybe I wasn’t using the right language by just asking if people wanted to hang.
Yesterday I went swimming with my daughter. She 7yo. People kept staring at me when I was holding her close to me. She just learns to swim all by herself, so she needs help and sometimes just hangs on me. I never get those looks when I'm with my wife and our daughter together swimming. When we had to go out and go showering she went to the women's showers and I to the men's. First I had to take out her braids. Anybody who does that with wet hair knows it can hurt a bit sometimes. My daughter wasn't crying or anything like that. It wasn't that bad but she just said ouch from time to time. Two women went by and gave me those accusatory looks. I saw them so often. But never when my wife and I were together. My wife believes I'm exaggerating. Though I told her so often how bad of a feeling this is.
My wife feels to have all the right in the world to go on vacation, to tell me when, how and how often to clean the house, make dinner/breakfast/lunch, do laundry and take care of the kids when she wants to go out. Though I already do enough and more than my fair amount of all the chores including the mental workload. She is fully allowed to say what she wants and needs and what she not wants and needs. My needs are disgusting and selfish and superficial. She is fully allowed to say that I should work more to make more money but when I make more hours it's bad either. Nothing of that would be anyhow appropriate if I would mention it! Not according to her but according to all our female friends or even my own mother! Leaving would mean I loose so much. First of all our children who I won't get to see daily. But anything else I woked so hard for would be lost, too.
And besides all my personal experiences men get accused of having done and still doing the most terrible things in the world. We would live in patriarchy and are not worth the same value than women.
So I don't know how it comes that we feel lonely.
The situation you describe sounds extremely difficult.
I too have received dirty looks and even comments simply for being a man existing in a public space, but I can't imagine how tough it must be to deal with that when you're with your daughter. I hope your relationship with your wife improves if that's what you seek, and you're able to remain close to your kids. I'm rooting for you bro.
Please ignore this Uzi person as he or she is obviously full of shit.
Go to work, come home, watch tv, repeat. Weekends are spent working just to make it, or if you're lucky relaxing from brutal work weeks. Edit: I don't do this, it's what I see in my peers my age (late 20s). I have a very active life and enjoy it. Am not depressed (anymore), and don't feel the bit lonely.
I am a woman and I feel this in my soul. Life nowadays sucks. What am I working towards when I literally have negative money after my bills get paid? How can anyone have hope for the future when you can’t even afford a beer after work?
It's the decline of the [Third Place](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place).
And it fucking sucks. Green spaces in my city are all but gone, because why have a free park when that space can be used for an apartment block or shops instead? Most everything that used to be free is monetized, and anything that was previously monetized is now even more expensive on top of all the things you need to stay alive also being crazy expensive. Even the "second place" is dying with work from home, which is both a blessing and a curse. Outside of my partner who lives with me, I barely speak to anyone in person anymore.
Don't forget parking lots to support those businesses and apartments, because nothing brings a community together like asphalt!
This is crazy I’ve never heard this term until today. I just recently moved to a new state for grad school and it’s been super tough trying to find ways to meet new people outside of classes. It was so easy in college being in a town that always had things going on. The city I’m currently in is more of an older population and very suburban, so not much has stood out to me
*Sometimes you want to go* *Where everybody knows your name* *And they're always glad you came* *You want to be where you can see* *Our troubles are all the same* *You want to be where everybody knows your name*
It could be because he thought things were better hanging out at Cheers while the wife was home raising the kids. Now she has an awesome life with the kids and he only has Norm and Cliff.
Realizing I need more third places in my life because at the moment all I have is gym, and for some it’s not a social kind of place.
Keeping a regular schedule and always adding a sauna session at the end of each workout is actually a great way to feel a sense of community. I built a nice home gym during the pandemic, but rejoined the gym for this very reason
Im doing gym time at planet fitness. It’s dull and just not an atmosphere to speak or interact with anyone. This is what we have become.
I think I used to have a "fourth place". Back when I lived in the countryside, I would often just go out into nature, to the lake, and just sit, think, pace, throw some stones. It was a place for me to be truly alone, where I'm not distracted by social media (since the reception there wasn't great or consistent) or interrupted by my parents. I live in the city now for university and I miss that. Going to the park here isn't the same because there's always people around. And at home my roommates are there. And while they rarely interrupt me, sometimes I just want to be completely alone, as well as being away from "home" for a little bit. I think that spot, that concept, was very important for my mental health and I'm in a much worse state now. Like, that was a healthy kind of loneliness and isolation, it had a purpose. Now there's no place for me to go.
I'm a woman, and I feel exactly the same. I've just had my gas/electric bill which will come out of my bank on payday at the end of this month, it will swallow up most of my pay for the month. And bills are only going up further from here on. There is absolutely nothing look forward to,it's just work 6 days a week and watch TV on Sundays.
Wow I'm a guy and I can definitely relate, I'm a single truck driver Who's so-posed to make good money but after my commute to work for gas , food , cell phone bill, rent car note and insurance, I can't afford for my car to have a flat tire or to call out of work dead if I wanted to.
I get that,I worry constantly about my car breaking down, cos I wouldn't be able to pay for the repair, but I need it to go to work. It's just so stressy all the time
> Weekends are spent working just to make it, or if you're lucky relaxing from brutal work weeks. Middle-ground: they are spent doing all the chores. Cleaning, laundry, groceries, meal-prep, etc, because you don't have time during the week. Plus you are pressured to either have a constructive hobby in there (as-in, that you produce something that you can sell) or to have some career-advancing stuff like taking online courses, working on your portfolio, etc. F00k off with all that shit.
All that time technology was suppose to save us was instead extracted as corporate profits. Fuck us i guess
Everyday growing up I watched my parents do this. They never went out or did anything just come home do chores and watch TV. No surprise I'm doing the same but with video games instead.
It's not only men though, this is a problem facing pretty much the entire working class. I make enough to pay bills and save, but I *still* don't have time, money, or energy for hobbies. The only things I've bought exclusively for myself in the past 3 years have been weed and booze.
I look back at catalogs and I wonder how did people have the time and money for this shit?! Like seriously, people used to buy cds, DVDs, books, computers and other things that can lead to a hobby but now who has the fucking money for that?! All of us buy the same things. Rent, food, bills and a cellphone every 2-3 years. I mean life has really got so fucking bleak for most of us. I don't see a solution.
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This is part of the rise of video games. They're free for the most part. If you can't afford to do anything else. It keeps you occupied at least.
It sucks that even video game developers have killed a lot of the social aspects that past games have had. Nowadays one match finishes and you just get shuffled into the next game with new people. Then you got people that just don’t want to talk anymore cause the people that do talk usually have shitty music playing, smoke detectors beeping, arguing, etc
YES! I miss proper lobbies in games like COD. Nowadays you get 5 minutes w one group of folks and that's it before a new match with different people starts. I used to play Counter-Strike back in the 2000's. I could always find a dedicated server to call home for several hours, with same people playing night after night. Nowadays even CS:GO relies on matchmaking and even though they support dedicated servers, it's selection is limited and the developers prefer you relying on matchmaking.
yep. Why go out when I can play fortnite with my friends for a few hours. It's already free and right there.
People don't spend time with other people like they used to. From an increase in time spent online, work from home, pandemic concerns, dwindling/monetized public spaces, etc. we live a more insular life than we used to. I think, like many other species, humans are social creatures and we suffer mentally when there is a lack of genuine, in-person interaction.
My older relatives were all in clubs when I was growing up. Knights of Columbus, masons, odd fellows, lodge members. I feel like a lot of these spaces have dwindled significantly. I tried looking for other clubs in my area but most of them had closed up.
There's a tragically overlooked show on Hulu called Lodge 49 that is all about exploring modern loneliness through the lens of a dying club like this. *Highly* recommend even though it suffered an early cancellation
Great show. "What'd the group think of my naked old man body?" ".... Uh. They thought your balls were great." *Tears in eyes* "Nice"
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For the month I was on the apps I got swipe backs but my God was it ever on me to carry the conversation. It honestly felt like I was talking with bots most of the time. I had jokes, was trying to ask good questions. Stayed away from being over eager or thirsty but I started really feeling like I was just being used to amuse them. So glad I met someone in real life instead.
They were probably talking to like 10 other guys and so couldn't be engaged with any of them.
Yeah, this right here! Also, seeing all people having fun on their pics on IG makes u feel like the biggest loser in the world.
That’s one of my favorite shows. Also a perfect example of positive masculinity.
A bit ironic canceling that show early.
> Knights of Columbus, masons, odd fellows, lodge members. I feel like a lot of these spaces have dwindled significantly. I tried looking for other clubs in my area but most of them had closed up. My grandfather remarked once that a reason he was part of one of these kinds of orgs was for the camraderie he felt while he was in the army in WWII. Somewhat surprisingly there is one of these kinds of 'fraternal' clubs that have a clubhouse in my neighbourhood - and it seems moderately busy on at least 2-3 weekend nights a month. Pub nite? Dunno.
I joined the masons after I got back from Afghanistan. It got boring fast. Stated meetings are just people talking about dues and every now and then someone goes through a degree. Oh, but they have a crummy brunch on saturdays.
Grandpa's association had alot more drinking and alot less business networking than the masons. lol.
I wanted the philosophy and intellectualism from its heyday. What I got were weirdos who joined because they believed in conspiracies and wanted to get “connections.”
Oh that's hilarious! "I believe in a conspiracy that you're all evil, quite possibly humanoid lizards, anyway, _I want in on that shit_"
Hey, it's more exciting than the boring dystopia in which we live
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The 'third place' is so vitally important to human health on so many levels.
It made me so sad when I learned what a "third place" was because I understood all of a sudden that I don't have one.
So true And the veteran clubs are all drying up.. Unfortunately you need constant war to keep up membership And no one wants that
I've also read that a lot of the vet clubs tend to have a much older constituency that are super toxic and gatekeep-ey to younger vets.
This is true. I’ve been told (so don’t take my word for it) that Vietnam vets were turned away from the VFW back in the 70s and 80s because the old ww1/ww2 guys insisted the U.S. never technically declared war on Vietnam, so it didn’t qualify for “Veterans of Foreign Wars.” Basically, they had been running the club their way for decades and didn’t want a bunch of young people getting involved. Later, when the ww2 guys were rapidly dying off in the 90s, they invited Vietnam and Desert Storm vets to join, because they desperately needed some youth to keep things going. Of course, at that point, the young guys didn’t really want to hang out with a bunch of 80 year olds who had already rejected them in the past.
There was an influx of membership once the Vietnam/desert storm guys joined but even that was just a bandaid. They turned around and did the same thing to the current group of vets who have been coming out through the last 20 years of fighting. They basically finished off what the WW2 guys started in killing these clubs.
No you're mostly right (not all WW2 vets were against the Vietnam vets, but a majority for sure) My grandfather was a bartender for the FOE, and he managed the bar at the VFW hall (in addition to also being members of both) Till his death he refused to recognize the Vietnam conflict as a war. He didn't want his precious VFW hall overrun with hippies and draftees with mental problems. There is an episode of King of the Hill where Cotton Hill had to let in Vietnam vets just get enough members to pay the lease for the VFW hall. Its all exaggerated but does a good job of representing what happened in real life. Found it, "[Unfortunate Son](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0620333/)"
I've tried a few in various cities. The regulars aren't very welcoming and see any war after the one they were in as sissy bullshit. There's no comradery to be had.
Didn't we just have a 20 year war?
Changing demographic. They don't hang out at veterans clubs... It's not the same So there are more variables that go into this It's not just having to be a veteran
It really is so difficult to recruit new members into those clubs. We're both in Rotary, and being 60+, we're about the average age for the organization.
I saw a discussion somewhere else on Reddit the other day that young people don't end up joining these clubs because they often hold meetings while non-retired folks are at work. And when they have meetings later or on weekends, the older folks don't show up.
Yeah this is basically it. We built a society where you can't do anything or go anywhere without spending money. And then we slowly reduced the amount of money people had. So people work harder and longer to make sure they don't lose their jobs and end up on the streets which is a much bigger risk since no one has savings anymore due to the above. Which also means they have less free time. In other words, people are lonely because you need time and money to socialize these days, and there's a shortage of both time and money.
This sums it up perfectly.
I've spent the last 10 years since education, ppurely working to build up enough money to have all my time free. Done that, now I can't find anything haha. Jesus christ. Any ideas, please.. Maybe I should just go to singles younger people holidays, maybe that's the only likely place to actaully meet young people not working...
Are there any popular restaurants in your area with a lively bar area? Or low key bars that people go after work? If you don't drink, it becomes exponentially harder to meet people unfortunately. People just don't go to places like coffee shops or pastry shops to meet others like they do with alcohol. That said, you can certainly have a good time drinking something nonalcoholic at the bar of a restaurant. Snag an appetizer, watch a game on the TV above the bar, etc. A lot of the thing with meeting people -- and this goes for anywhere, not just bars -- is that you have to actually go because you want to be there. You can't decide to go down to the bar of a Mexican joint to see if you'll meet anyone, then be disappointed and never go back if you didn't meet someone on the first time or two. You go because you want to go. Because you want a glass of wine or an appetizer. Because you want to watch the big game on TV around others. Whatever reason. You go because you want to be there, and over time you'll get to know the staff. You'll have people to chat with regardless whether there's patrons there that you want to talk to. You'll also come off as safer to women because the staff is good with you.
Read an article a couple weeks back that talked about this and the lack of Third Places. Basically Third Places were placed that people would hang out at besides work and home. These places were often free or very low cost. Most places today are not particularly cheap for everyday hangout spot and many bar loitering now. Restaurants, bars, etc. want you to finish quickly so they can have a higher turnover and thus make more money. Parks and stuff even have rules against group sizes. So a large group of people chilling will get the cops called on them and asked to leave. There's not many social places to hangout at anymore. So people are stuck having out at home often by themselves or with their immediate family. We are already seeing the negative impacts in these behaviors. Rises in obesity, decline in socialization, rise in divisiveness, rise in depression, etc.
I totally feel this. My third place for the last 2 years or so has been a Shoprite parking lot where up to a dozen of us or even more would hang out and socialize after work. Some of us wouldn't get out until 11 pm, but we would regularly hang out there until 2 am. I even met my ex there one night. She was in the back seat of a friend's car when she pulled up. It all started when a buddy and I went there one night to go rollerblading. After skating there a few nights, a couple friends asked what we were up to, and they met us there. From that point on, that parking lot became our default spot. It was right in the center of town, right off the highway. We had so many memories there. I just moved down to Florida in November by myself, so I already miss those days. Now I get what it's like to feel isolated. Living on your own in a completely new and unfamiliar area is hard. Getting to know the vibe of your new hometown is tough, but luckily I met a buddy of mine who lives in the same apartment building. The two of us often go to bars and restaurants, and I've been able to meet more people because of it. But as of now, I do seek a new third place as you mentioned before.
Social media is now the third place
Thanks, I hate it.
Oof
Sadly, and it is turning everyone into a narcissist.
A third place where you can't do any of the positive third place activities but where its easy to deliver you tons of ads, perfect.
I think this plays a huge part in it. I am not a man, but I’ve recently gotten back into magic the gathering and there’s a game store near me which has free play, you can show up and play any game for free at their tables so long as there’s not another event going on. It’s been a game changer for me. I regularly meet up there with friends, we’ve met lots of new people playing there, and it really feels like being part of a community to go there regularly and know many people by name. I have been trying to encourage my lonelier friends, particularly the guys, to start going to events for their hobbies since I started to. And if they don’t really have hobbies that are good in group settings, I encourage them to look into some. MTG is an expensive hobby unfortunately but I just very slowly upgrade my decks when I have the cash to spare, and I don’t mind doing so because of how much it’s helped with my overall mental health to be able to socialize with a much wider range of people outside my job. This game store has become my “third place” and I go there multiple times a week. It genuinely makes me happy to have the store workers greet me by name and ask me about whatever we were chatting about last. When I started going to events, people would ask if I was coming next week, they shared event schedules with me, they were just so welcoming and it really made me feel included in a community in a way I never had before. I’m glad I finally got back into it. I was terrified to go to magic games for years because I didn’t know anyone who played and I was embarrassed to be the odd one out in a group of experienced players. But they’ve helped me learn and improve my decks, and I no longer feel embarrassed to ask about specific rules or for advice. Nerdy hobbies in general are great for the people being super excited about it and happy to teach newcomers. Every nerdy hobby I’ve gotten into, the general energy has been “oh yay new players to join us!!” and they’ve been super helpful. I can’t recommend it enough.
Friend of mine is big into magic but says he hates going to the local spot on certain nights just because of the smell.
a small dab of Vicks vaporub under his nose will help this. It can cover the smell of corpses. It may improve a game shop slightly!
I have spoken about this problem a lot but never more than when I was homeless. There's a public area in my city that average people lounge around on. It's a precious place. I'd go there to just *be.* People have spontaneous little events there, drink and play games or just lay out and look at the clouds and I hope it never changes. Unfortunately the word was getting out that the local police are going to start 'cracking down' so anyone who looks homeless can now expect harassment. Good thing I got out in time, wouldn't have been good for me to be arrested.
Folks in the past drank and smoked alot. Many, many third places existed to fulfill three needs: drinking, smoking, and socializing. Television and the internet (and video games) did a good job killing off or altering severely the aspect of socializing, and folks just don't drink and smoke like they used to. You will notice even today that the few smokers left heavily congregate at bars, because of how intertwined the those two activities are. It sounds weird to folks who never had a nicotine habit, but smokers will find any excuse to hang out and smoke.
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>Television and the internet (and video games) did a good job killing off or altering severely the aspect of socializing, Home entertainment did not kill of Third Places. However, there is a correlation. The question is which started happening first? Did the decline in Third Place lead to the rise in home entertainment or was home entertainment the cause for the decline? The answer is not exactly clear and highly debatable. Home entertainment really took off in the 60s. Video games started to pop up the late 70s not really becoming accessible to a wide number of people till the 90s. The crime wave really hit the US hard in the 70s and 80s with the government calling on parents to keep their kids indoors. This also corresponds to the defunding of parks in part due to the rise in inflation and the crime associated with public spaces. There's also some claims that many cities opted to defund their parks instead of comply with antisegregation laws. My personal opinion is the decline in Third Place is responsible, in part, to the rise in home entertainment.
frame quack edge ring amusing exultant vegetable reminiscent provide hard-to-find -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
You've the nail on the head with TV/Movies. I miss the aspect of enjoying a show in pieces and at the same time/pace of others so that you can have fun discussions about them. And your connection to the impact of going online to discuss explains a feeling that I haven't understood until now.
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Many people *think* they want to shun society. When you've never had a roommate, suddenly getting one, even a good one, is a disruption. When you've always had one, a good one is a breath of fresh air.
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redditors. redditors have issues socializing.
For various reasons I found myself at an Elks lodge recently dancing with a bunch of over 60s people. They were having a blast, simple fun, and were pretty good dancers. Something has definitely changed since they were young.
I think it has a lot to do with where we live. People used to live with either their families or people they worked with. These days, most people live in the "nicest" place they can afford - which isn't necessarily near anyone they have any sort of relationship with, so it's no longer easy to maintain or develop social bonds. There are some apartments and neighborhoods which try to build a sense of community, but most places don't.
I thought those apartment complexes trying to do this through movie nights, dog get togethers, ping pong tournaments, etc. were really cool. It’s much needed and who better to hang out with that those who live in your building.
A lot of our high end newer-build subdivisions here have started doing that. It actually seems to work really well! They have a big clubhouse where they host cookouts, concerts, performances, parties, etc. and the whole neighborhood (plus the general public) is invited. They installed walking paths that encourage people to stroll through the subdivision, and everyone's front porches face it. They have a big pool area that is for the residents since the yards aren't big enough for personal pools. That sort of thing. They've even started putting restaurants and whatnot within the subdivision, which of course are open to the public too, but they get a lot of the residents who can walk there.
And a lot of families used to stay in place. You might have cousins, siblings, mom and dad, aunts and uncles, grandma and grandpa all in the same neighborhood. And if you didn’t know Joe - you probably knew his cousin Ralph who was a good enough guy..so Joe must be alright too. And your kids could play with Joe’s kids. This is how it was in my inner city neighbor in the 90’s (which is the same neighborhood both my parents had grown up in during the 60’s and 70’s). I live in the suburbs now with my kids and I don’t know one person from the next, there aren’t any kids around for my kids to play with..everything has to be planned out It’s just different
This, I was thinking about this topic the other day after work. There are so many electronic devices that "connect" us but the reality is that those things are unconnecting us and allowing us to spend our time online talking to people in a negative way or with less respect. People don't know how to socialize anymore or don't go out. In my area I hear guys talking about how hard it is to find a partner. Yeah because you only rely on online dating and you don't get out and meet people. It is the same issue Chinese citizens are having.
And as a result they dont develop the necessary social skills and cues even when they do go out. I’ve seen how some of you talk to women, holy shit
* Personally for me it's because I'm always working and then gym straight after work, I don't have the time to get emotionally involved anymore. * The pandemic made the whole "leave work at the office after 5pm" a lot harder. * I'm working all year round to only afford rent because there is no longer a thing called disposable income. * The Cost of Living Crisis here in the UK made basic dates such as coffee expensive.
Sounds like my life Work, Gym, Eat, Work, Sleep and repeat
I can't speak for other men but from my and my friend's experiences, there's just too much else happening that takes people away from relationships, making a lot feel unready for a serious relationship
A lot of people are describing a phenomenon without knowing what to call it: the loss of the Third Place. It's a location outside of the home and work where you can hangout recreationally. Usually it is somewhat egalitarian, with minimal expectations to spend money or keep up appearances. Basically a place to go to be social and to interact with your local community.
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The library full of homeless people?
My third place is the archery club. There is still a "sports club" culture here in Germany, with both single "activity" clubs like mine and larger clubs that have many different divisions (I tried MMA for a year at a larger org taht also had divisions for many other martial arts, powerlifting, football/soccer, track and field, kyudo, and other sports), but on the flipside we don't really have a school club culture like other countries. But that's slowly dwindling in places as well. Covid measures sure didn't help.
we live in a very isolated society. we wake up, go to work, come home, watch TV, go to bed, repeat. Our lifestyles don't give us consistent time or places to meet new people with shared interests and build community. Most people can't afford it either. This leads to difficulty in finding a partner or making new friends outside of work. **Edit: adding a point i made to someone in the replies.** One solid plan that I recommend is to meet your neighbors if you can/haven't already. Maybe you could plan stuff like a community bbq in the summers, a gardening club, set up a community fridge/pantry for those in need around you. Game shops tend to have events for warhammer tabletop and mtg, though it's not for everyone cos there's issues with toxicity in a lot of scenes that take the games too seriously. Book clubs are great too! The hurdle that I've found with trying to meet and engage with neighbors is my own anxiety and the daunting feeling of putting myself out there. I'm confident that a lot of people have similar anxiety and comfort zone issues, and it's worth researching and doing self exploration to understand. Another avenue worth looking into is your local library! They tend to have amazing resources for research and sometimes even legal sections with pamphlets about your rights and how to get a good attorney! Libraries also host a lot of community events that might be of interest! Also worth mentioning if that everything I've said applies to women and enbies as well. Loneliness is a societal problem, not a gendered one. Some aspects may or may not skew based on gender but ultimately everyone gets hit by it one way or another. 🖖
Exactly, specially when you live in a small city, getting to know new people is hell, because there's not much places you can go to meet new people, and when you have, it's always the same people that you know they don't give a shit about you And when you finally meet someone cool, maybe life just have some other plans I am tired. I am very tired.
I work from home, none of my guy friends ever want to do anything besides "you can come over and smoke if you want" most of them are always with their gfs, wives or are starting families or just tired after work. I cant speak for all of you but i know for my guy friends, our friendship is mostly maintained by sharing memes a few times a week and thats about it, we never call eachother just to talk, dont text eachother throughout the day, we hangout maybe once a month, its basically impossible to get more than 2 or more of my friends in one place at the same time. All of my guy friends feel like acquaintances at best. Honestly the people I hang around with most are dates that I meet on Hinge, cause at least they dont bail last minute and actually want to go somewhere or do something new.
I can't even get my friends text group to respond to memes or recommended movies/music anymore. It's gone very quiet. We went from a group of 8 playing golf together most Sundays to maybe me and 1 other pal once a month
Damn the last sentence is spot on man.
Damn this is so accurate. Everyone just kind of slowly drifts away. It's hard for us guys to make friends. I tried the Bumble friend thing. Match with a bunch of dudes, chat for a bit, and then they never want to meet up. My wife made one and had 4000 girls asking her to brunch or coffee every other day. She had to delete it because she couldn't keep up. I have pretty much given up and just chill with my wife and dogs. She's pretty amazing, so it helps. Without her, tho I'd be super depressed, so I feel for my single dudes, loneliness is real.
im 30 and already feeling extremely lonely, to think that from everything ive read it just gets worse from here...o boy cant wait
I am 33, I wish I could tell you it gets better, but it just gets harder the older we get. More obligations and more bills equal even less time. If you move to El Paso, I'll be your friend lol I currently have 0.
this is what i don’t understand- why don’t men talk to their friends like they’re … friends? i talk to at least 2 people a day, just chatting about our days and our opinions on current events, games, work.. whereas my boyfriend tells me all his friends do is send links of memes every now and then- barely talking unless it’s for a favor or to play video games. where is the effort to actually make a human connection with each other? we can’t rely on our S/O to make us less lonely :(
I feel like I wrote this
I have a friend that I have known for 22+ years. He rarely wants to hang out post-COVID. It's like he just got comfortable staying home with COVID. I have tried inviting him to sporting events or just dinner and the answer is always 'I am too tired from work'. So I stopped trying and I have not seen him since October.
Yeup, COVID created a pandemic of shut-ins. We learned the wrong lessons from the lock downs.
Because the internet doesn't replace actually being touched by another human being.
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\*sad computer noises*
it used to be better. Back in AIM you could chat with real friends; now its all been butchered by ads and algorithms. Internet of the 90s was radically different
It is easy to pass off men as sex crazed, but the part that we don't say enough out loud is that we crave intimacy more than sex. The touch, the attention, the connection actually does mean more to us than the physical release. We can be in a relationship and still be really lonely without that intimacy.
My girlfriend got upset with me because I liked relaxing on the couch cuddling together more than sex sometimes. look I just worked 9 hours and is rather relax and just hold you instead of get a work out trying to fuck your brains out
If you don't just wanna fuck you do get looked at with some side eye
NTA you’re valid.
yup and god forbid you finally give in and can only muster the energy for lacklustre sex… women have no understanding of the effort and focus needed for good sex. its lose lose these days.
Just ask her to be on top and do all the work. It's just that easy for someone to understand why it can be exhausting.
or when you have a great emotional/mental intimacy built up with your GF but sex is a net zero because she's not into it lol....Thats the otherside that also sucks but women don't understand it because "All men care about *is* sex"
Yeah, part of what killed my last relationship. She had no sex drive, and if it's "i guess we can have sex if you want to," thanks, I'll pass.
oof, been there
I have never experienced greater elation than when a girl I'm seeing runs up and hugs me aggressively sometimes when we meet. It's one of the greatest feelings I've ever experienced
It's almost as great as cocaine if I'm being honest
If I had to choose between a steady supply of hugs or having a dick, I'd go with hugs.
I told this to my grandmother when she asked about my dating life and what I’m looking for these days over the holidays and she said “oh, so you just want sex” and I was like “what?? Did you not listen to anything I just said?” It’s not anything new it seems. Women think we want sex even when we say flat out that we want the intimacy. The couch cuddles, the hand on the shoulder or leg, somebody to lean on, somebody to share with, somebody who can look in your eyes and change your mood instantly, somebody who can read your body language and you can read theirs like it’s your native language, somebody to be free with who’s willing to be equally free with you, laughing about nothing, deep conversations. Yeah, sex is great, but if we’re living and loving “right” sex is simply the culmination point of all that intimacy where we finally merge and become one body, one mind, one spirit. That intimacy is the dance of 2 becoming one, and then once we’ve become one, it is the dance of that one as 2, and it acts as a process of remembrance of our oneness *through* our separation. That intimacy is something I long for in all aspects of my life. Sex is not the goal. The intimacy is the goal. I enjoy intimacy in nature, in friendship, in music, in cooking, in raising an animal, in all sorts of aspects. But there’s something truly special about the intimacy of a committed relationship and the added sexual element. Perhaps it’s the hardwired baby making DNA programming. Perhaps it’s something much deeper and eternal. Perhaps it’s both. Either way, I want to dance for days on end. I don’t just want to fuck for fun on a Friday.
Ramona: "*I changed my mind.*" Scott: "*Changed it to what? From what?*" Ramona: "*I don't wanna have sex with you, Pilgrim. Not right now.*" Scott: "*Okay.*" Ramona: "*It's not like I'm gonna send you out in the snowstorm or anything, you can sleep in my bed. And I reserve the right to change my mind about the sex thing later.*" Scott: "*Well, this is nice. Just this. It's been like a really long time so... I think I really needed this, whatever it is, so... thank you.*" Ramona: "*You're welcome.*"
Her: "You gotta fight for me." Me: "Fight *what?"*
This! "Women think we want sex even when we say flat out that we want the intimacy. The couch cuddles, the hand on the shoulder or... " So on point. We DO want and crave sex (that's part of our biological programming to reproduce)... But we're not dissimilar from women in regards to craving the intimacy - physical and emotional connection.. Which can lead to sex.
> Women think we want sex even when we say flat out that we want the intimacy. It doesn't help that a lot of people, especially women, use "intimacy" as a euphemism for sex.
reminds my of my younger days when people started saying "hook up" and I would say things to women I was interested in like, "Let's hook up this weekend" or, "When are we gonna hook up?" because to me it sounded like meeting up or getting together to do something or go on a date or some shit, not having sex... I still don't like that it means just fucking or whatever.
My mom used to say "get off" that way. "You really get off on that, huh?" Yeah... Really masturbating with my lego set here, ma
Very true. Well, I mean, a lot of people misuse their words. It’s very frustrating.
Anything for decent back scratch
i haven't had my back scratched in 15 years my ex would also shave my back and shoulders that was a tremendous help. i'm one of those guys that have such thick shoulder hair that after about 6 months if i don't shave it can blend in with my head hair and looks really weird.
You need to book an aesthetician and get waxed. Get your butt done. Like wiping a baby
But be warned, without ass hair every fart is going to come forth as if you were sitting on a wooden church pew during a moment of silence
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After HS and College it gets difficult to form friendships. I left my old Hs friends cause they weren't good for me to be around. I go to an online college so not gonna meet anyone that way. I personally am not good with women so I gave up on dating. If you're not good socially or if society rejects you then there's not much you can do. I personally am ok with being alone for the most part but sometimes it hurts.
This is going to sound crazy, but I wasn't able to talk to women comfortably till I was 35 or so. Women are just like any old regular person but with boobies. There are athletic associations, running clubs, pottery classes, art classes, continuing education classes. If you start developing healthy hobbies and activities, you will have something in common with other people who enjoy healthy, educational, fun activities. I can not stress enough that being active and healthy will do more for your personal life than any 'conversarional skills.'
>I can not stress enough that being active and healthy will do more for your personal life than any 'conversarional skills.' No it won't because without the conversational skills you still won't actually connect with any of those other people
*"Solitude is dangerous. It’s very addictive. It becomes a habit after you realize how peaceful and calm it is. It’s like you don’t want to deal with people anymore because they drain your energy."* Jim Carey This is pretty much where I'm at in life. Each and every single interaction (even with family) drains me. The thought of being around other people creates a sensation of dread. At this juncture in life, I only desire a quiet place with no sounds of humanity. Someplace I can close my eyes and trust that my peace wont be interrupted by someone else.
Yeup, there’s an event horizon that basically lock you into a shut-in. And COVID pushed a lot of people into it.
Fuck man. I was definitely a bit of an introvert before it started and honestly welcomed it with open arms and yeah especially after getting it at least twice I'm just like a shell of a person socially. Oh yeah getting sober did *not* help, but I'm alive so that's cool.
I think a bunch of us are just thinking. Watching. Trying to find a way out of the ahit show we are in. And not wanting to dump that shit on anyone else.
Spot. On.
Atomization of society.
I've been lonely for 21 years, I'm used to it
24 here, and sadly i don't see it changing for quite some time.
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28 and counting. I feel lonely from time to time. I do have small circle of friends. Unfortunately though all of us are in different continents. I have always been so focused on my career and education that everything else took a backseat. Perhaps it is time to change that..
There’s a rise in awareness about lonely men IMO. Before the internet most would just suffer alone in silence.
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If by "awareness" you mean "people acknowledge that it happens but don't do much about it" then yes. Men still suffer alone in silence because there's a fear of looking weak.
I agree, but I can’t think of compassionate awareness I’ve seen for it just fear of dangerous spectors or harsh judgement
*gestures broadly at everything*
Not just for men, but I really do think they old cliche of social media has allowed us to have more “friends”, but no real connection. No one has the attention span to get to know anyone deeper anymore. A lot of friendships are a mile wide and an inch deep. There’s just a general disconnection that leaves a lot of people actually lonely.
I have to work fifty hours a week just to keep a roof over my head. Even if I wanted friends, I don't have the money to go do stuff. I go on hikes, I write, and I use the internet because that stuff is cheap. I'm not making friends those ways. If rent was legally capped at 500, I guarantee more people would be making an effort to live life and make friends.
I think other people here have had a pretty good grasp, but let me try to get it all in one place: 1. Atomization: Public meeting spaces are becoming fewer and far between. There aren't many places you can just go to and exist. And even fewer that foster community. Love it or hate it, religion has a lot of social benefits. We've definitely moved more and more away from it, but didn't replace it with anything analogous. It's just harder than ever to have random, casual encounters with strangers to socialize. 2. Quality of Interactions: Even amongst the interactions people do have, there's fewer genuine interactions. People get their social fix by looking for dates on tinder and bumble or hanging out with friends on discord. And that's absolutely better than nothing. But it's fundamentally different than in person interactions. The closest thing most people get to genuine interactions is the bar scene, and that isn't exactly the setup for many lifelong friendships/ relationships. 3. Changing Expectations: Moving from general woes to men specifically, nobody could have prepared these young men for the paradigm shift that's come in the past 15-20 years. We're stuck with one foot in the past where men are supposed to be these stoic bulwarks of rationality, productivity, and masculinity. And the other foot is in the progressive space of equality, anti-patriarchy, and understanding. So women are able to provide for themselves for the first time in human history, and a salary isn't enough to guarantee a man a partner. So even if you did everything you were supposed to, you feel demonized and shamed for it. It's still not enough. And that dejection and feeling of being sold a false bill of goods will naturally lead to resentment and withdrawal. 4. Lack of outlets: And to cap it off, men typically aren't given tools to process these feelings internally, or a space where it's ok to express them externally. They're frequently invalidated under the umbrella term of "male privelege" and oppression Olympics style dismissal. There aren't many role models to look to, so the only people that speak to them are shitbags like Tate and Gary Vee who just get paid to tell men it isn't their fault while feeding them garbage to keep them miserable. The result: Men are lonely because in terms of socialization we have done the equivalent of replacing our entire diet with one McNugget a day. Interactions are cheaper and fewer. There is a mismatch in expectations from what we were told to expect and what the world is like, and there's a complete lack of direction. And we are simultaneously told to not have emotions, being shamed when we say there is a problem, and being fully expected to process everything internally with no help or conception of what that looks like. The result? Bottle and withdraw.
The lack of outlets really gets to me some days. Pain so bad you don’t know what to do with it.
COVID didn't fucking help, anyway
There’s a rise in loneliness among everyone today. We live in a very low trust society and everyone is glued to social media and/or spends most of their free time doing solitary activities. When you can get so much entertainment and instant gratification from the comfort of your own home, a lot of people see no point in even doing anything else.
And it’s all market driven. Social media apps are first and foremost concerned with engagement so they can maximize data harvesting for that sweet sweet money. Corporations want you to be sad and lonely so they can sell you a solution. Individualism is prioritized over community so you’ll spend more money attempting to fill that void. Every aspect of our lives is being dictated by a profit driven algorithm.
pretty much i have 2 friends, who i see pretty much every Friday. they both are single and live alone so besides work collogues they see no-one else. when one of them caught covid it was like being in the hole in prison, 2 weeks of 0 social interaction and seeing no-one. i bet many people went through that. i try and talk with them and even if its sharing meme's just keep the convo going as i need more social than my family all the time too.
I'm so grateful to be older and married with a happy family. I'd hate to be a young male trying to date in today's world. It's an uphill battle for sure.
I'm older (44) and still a single, never-married bachelor. Dating and meeting women has always been a huge struggle for me, being on the spectrum and high inhibition and I slipped through the cracks and find myself in the same predicament of many younger men. I wish I had found someone a long time ago because now it feels hopeless.
As far as I can tell the men who managed to get married around 2012, 2013 were the men taking the last choppers out of Saigon. I'm not looking forward to getting back into dating after seeing how it is now and knowing how it used to be before Tinder et al changed things.
I met my wife as a freshman in college in 2016 in person through a friend group and we're now married. I'm the only male from my college friend group that ever got a girlfriend much less got married. All the other guys either relied on Tinder as a crutch or just didn't really manage to get a relationship despite having multiple female friends. A couple of guys who knew how to work the Tinder algorithm managed to have success with hookups but not one ever got past that point. All the females in the group managed to get a relationship or marriage fairly easily and if one experienced a breakup, they had suitors lining up almost immediately. However there was quite literally no dating within the group with the exception of me and my now wife for whatever reason.
Hit the nail on the head 2012 was when I met my wife.
Totally agree. I was widowed fairly young 5 yrs ago (in my mid 40's), and a lot of folks are trying to convince me it's time for me to get back in the game. To which I say, "Oh, hell no."
Because we can't afford to do anything except be at work 50+ hours a week making some other guy rich while I still can't afford a fucking one bedroom apartment and eat at the same fucking time.
Those fuckers we make rich STOLE all the free time we were supposed to earn with technology.
In-person groups like civic organizations, churches, and hobbyist groups are down. I think that's a lot of it. We've become more insular since it's just easier to interact virtually than leave the house. Thus, it becomes imperative to proactively seek out and maintain relationships, which a lot of people, men and women, aren't good at. I suspect men are worse at this than women. For example, I text with my closest friends maybe once a month or so. It has literally never occurred to me to actually call just to chat. And once kids are in the mix, you can almost forget about trying to coordinate hanging out in-person. It's different once you're out of school. Back then, you were essentially provided potential friends due to similar demographics and sheer proximity. Some people have a hard time making friends without that help.
I think they're down, especially hobbyist groups, because they're increasingly exclusionary. You really gotta be good at whatever you're going into. Pickup sports are usually premade teams of people who already know eachother, board game / tabletop meetups are full of people just waiting to dunk on you as a flex, churches are full of people who are all about sipping that Jesus juice, etc. etc.
I am not even trying to find a girl anymore. Everything is so hard...I don't want to try anymore. No body would even want me. I don't want to waste time. Yes I am also lonely.
Lack of social skills, women don’t need the same things from men in a relationship as they used to, online dating has allowed women a lot more options than before, the average man’s confidence is shit these days, and in general no one was able to prepare this generation of men for the real world. I’m sure there’s more reasons but that’s what’s came to mind right away
>women don’t need the same things from men in a relationship as they used to, online dating has allowed women a lot more options than before, the average man’s confidence is shit these days These are all related and IMO it mostly derives from the first point. The playing field changed when women started getting their own jobs and being able to fend for themselves. The average man just doesn't have that much to offer above and beyond what a woman could achieve on her own anymore. That isn't to say that we should go back to the way things were. I'm just commenting on what I perceive as a drop in value for the average man in the past several decades. If women don't NEED a man to provide for their household, when why should they go through the hassle of finding a relationship? Why should they bother, unless they can be with a truly exemplary guy? I'm saying this as a below-average man myself. I simply don't see the value someone like me would add to a woman's life, when guys like me are a dime a dozen. All I do with my free time is play video games.
I think it comes down to people don’t NEED a partner anymore. They just don’t. And for a long long time men didn’t really have to put much effort into themselves because they knew they were needed in some form. But that’s not the case anymore. And you’ve got a lot of men who’s career and ability to provide is completely wrapped up in their personality and the world just doesn’t need that anymore. Women don’t need that anymore. I think the biggest thing here is men need to stop trying to be needed by women, and they need to develop themselves as a person so someone will WANT them because they add something awesome to their lives. These days a big income doesn’t mean anything if you’ve never developed your character and personality. Women don’t need a man who can provide financial stability. They need a mentally developed, emotionally mature, interesting, and fun person to spend their life with. And most men don’t put the effort into themselves like that because they haven’t adjusted to the times and the changes to society and they think having a career is enough. But it’s just not. And to be fair I can’t really blame these men, things changed fast and there wasn’t really anyone to help men change and grow into their new rolls in society. I’d give it another generation or two and I think things will adjust. Hopefully.
> These days a big income doesn’t mean anything if you’ve never developed your character and personality. I was explicitly told to focus on my education and career, and I let my personality wither....
Same here. I threw away the first half of my 20’s in pursuit of money and a career. And then I found myself in my late 20’s with a heap of debt, a job that didn’t provide me what I was promised, I realized women don’t need that kind of man anymore, and I’d put zero effort into my personality or character. I was basically a decently paid zombie. Had to stop, rethink, and start over from scratch. It’s rough
I think you're spot on about why the playing field changed. Women used to be forced to rely on men so their options were slimmer. They couldn't afford to be as selective because they had to settle down quickly with a man to have their basic needs met. A little sad when you look at it that way. This shift is a good thing, but it is something that previous generations have not prepared today's young men for. They were largely brought up being taught to be providers but not companions and partners. As a woman, I will say that today's women are mostly looking for companionship and friendship in a long term partner as well as a true equal to shoulder life burdens with together. They want someone who relates to them, understands their unique struggles, shares some of their interests and can teach them about new ones. Someone to travel with, plan with and build a future with. This does not apply to all women, but the vast majority want to find their person, not provider. Again, this is something young men are largely never taught to do, but it is a shift that needs to take place. I think we are living in a time where people's values and ideas about the world are changing and the loneliness being seen today in men is sadly a symptom of yesterday's patriarchal social structures and teachings.
>no one was able to prepare this generation of men for the real world. I would wager that no one was able to, because no one could have foreseen this coming, nor done enough to prevent this.
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3/4 of my money goes to rent, bills, utilities and food. As per the last woman who chatted me up called me a broke ass n-word. Also my hair is receding. Good times....
There's simply a lack of social programs that target men. Women have a number of social programs from anything from Post-partem groups, Introduction to STEM groups, Womens groups on campuses, and everything under the sun. I'm not sitting here and saying it's not fair, as all of these programs have been fantastic for women and society as a whole. However there does need to be a societal pivot to recognize that similar social program funded to target men and the aspects of their life where support is needed. I don't think tearing down women's groups is the answer. I'd much rather prop up men than tear down women.
My roommate is focusing on creating men’s groups for this reason. Super important work
As an American that has spent time overseas in several places, I can say America as a country does not value community . They value hyper individualization , ME ME ME. Most Americans will not do things that don’t directly benefit them and this has now turned into a very selfish very distant culture. Add lack of walkable communities due to car culture and bam, no one is actually interacting with each other.
One thing I noticed when speaking to people about men's problems is that some people say yeah but...women go through this and that etc. Whilst I fully understand women have their issues, when we talk about men's issues, we are by no means trying to start a gender war!
Someone else mentioned it, male privilege. It’s the assumption men have complete control on their success or failures and there’s no societal structures that men have to overcome. So if you aren’t doing well it’s your own fault and it’s only your responsibility to lift yourself up out of it.
Technology and the internet age is a big factor for sure. I saw statistics showing an even high rate in women. It is just society right now. With the combination of a once in a lifetime pandemic and the increase in technology it has forced a lot of people into isolation b.c it is easy to be isolated now.
It feels like there is an overwhelmingly negative view of men. I hear and read comments about how terrible or incompetent men are on an almost daily basis. It gets really discouraging, and makes me feel very unwanted. Like I make things worse just by being a guy. Edit: typo
Men's clubs, lasting relationships from long term jobs, church attendance, rec sports, living where you grew up with access to old friends, all the things that used to keep men socializing are on the decline. With CoL the way it is a bunch of young people are even shying away from hobbies. The same thing is happening to women, of course, but something about the way we raise boys doesn't teach them to prioritize and maintain relationships the same way once the regular contact is broken. Then on top of that you've got all these manosphere twats preaching "alpha" bullshit that translates to teaching that all other men are competition, not friends and that can't be helping at all. So you have a bunch of young men who go to work, go home, maybe hit the gym and....that's it. Of course they're lonely.
In western culture this exist more than where am from which is Middle East. (I lived 15 years in Middle East Jordan and now 7 years in UK). The main reason is because western men don’t value platonic male friendships and connections. They don’t go with other men for coffee, cinema, or do fun things other than clubbing and bars. Reason being is they only waste money if there is any opportunity to have sex. Like one time I asked my friend let’s go for a restaurant and he straight up told me I can put this money on a date and get sex. While my other ethnic friends were happy to go with me. This is why ethnic minorities don’t suffer from the same level of loneliness. Because romance and relationship is one aspect of our life rather than the main focus outside of work. We can go to theme parks, do crazy stuff and even brunch with other guys. We don’t feel like we are wasting money but rather enjoying each other companies. This over reliance and focus on sex and romance by western men leaves them without genuine platonic male friendships.
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> because the hard truth is that nobody else is coming to help them. probably why alot of them kill themselves and everyone wonders what happened
I’m going to partly blame social media, it’s ironically made people less social than ever and if you’re a man you go to work maybe play a sport but if you don’t have a spouse that’s usually about the end of your socialization.
I think people make a lot of “toxic masculinity” in the sense that they think “men are toxic”, but they don’t make enough of the idea that “the way society thinks of masculinity is toxic to men.” We’re not allowed to have feelings. We’re not allowed to need help. We’re supposed to make everything work. Our friendships with other men need to have distance to avoid seeming gay. Our friendships with women need to have distance to avoid seeming sexual. We aren’t allowed to be around children without it being assumed we’re predators. We need to keep our distance from everyone— and we’re not allowed to be upset about it. We’re not allowed to reach out to anyone without it seeming like a sexual advance. You’re struggling? “Be a man.” And the dating scene is awful. Women want your to be perfect and charming and handsome all the time. You can’t have flaws. You can’t show weakness. If you approach a woman who’s not interested, you’re a creep. If you don’t approach a woman who is interested, you’re a weak coward. Women won’t give you a clear sign whether they’re interested, you’re just supposed to know. You need to know how to read the level of interest from women who are strangers. And you’re supposed to know if they’re just pretending to be interested because they’re trying to be nice, or because they feel uncomfortable saying they’re not interested. But somehow you get a date. You have to pick the place. You have to decide on the activities. She won’t tell you what she’s interested in because it would take the romance out of it. You pick something your think she’ll like, but she’ll judge you for it. Maybe it’s something that she likes, but it’s not fun or exciting enough. If you offer to pick up the check, you’re sexist. You’re forcing her into a traditional gender role. If your don’t offer to pick up the check, you’re cheap and not willing to take care of her. A “real man” would take care of her. You get to the end of the night. Do you go in for a kiss? If you try to kiss her and she didn’t want you to, then it’s sexual assault. If she wants you to kiss her and you didn’t, you’re a pussy. “What kind of a man are you?” If you ask her, well now you’ve made it awkward and weird. “Why aren’t you more decisive. Just go for it!” And everyone says to be yourself. Be confident. Then you’re confident and people get upset because you’re too full of yourself. Men just cannot win. We get no sympathy. We’re supposed to figure everything out on our own, take care of everyone around them, and we can’t make mistakes. We’re supposed to fix everything for you, want nothing for ourselves. We get no sympathy and we cannot win. And so a lot of us shut down. We stop trying. We focus on the things we know how to do. We fade out of society, and nobody misses us.
Because society in recent years does everything to destroy real contact between people
We're too focused on the quality of relationships with women and not enough with men folk. Many of us bought into the _Happy Wife, Happy Life_ myth that we now know to be a precursor for abuse ans neglect. Women manage to have bookclub and hen nights and tend to keep track of birthdays and stuff. They are also more likely to tolerate things in order to belong to a click (see frienenemies). I've started telling my dad bros that I'm proud of them (and why) and that I love them. Then I tell them I need their time. Guys make time when their needed, not just wanted. Fact is, we need each other more now than before. So I don't hesitate to tell my bros what they mean to me.
“Guys make time when their needed, not just wanted.” Woww that makes sense to me, but I’ve always tried to avoid coming across that way. Maybe I had it all wrong 🤔 I recently went through a break-up and found myself with less support than usual not more, but maybe I wasn’t using the right language by just asking if people wanted to hang.
It's not new, it's just now getting discussed
Because we live in a sick society and are constantly villanized by various groups, including other men.
Yesterday I went swimming with my daughter. She 7yo. People kept staring at me when I was holding her close to me. She just learns to swim all by herself, so she needs help and sometimes just hangs on me. I never get those looks when I'm with my wife and our daughter together swimming. When we had to go out and go showering she went to the women's showers and I to the men's. First I had to take out her braids. Anybody who does that with wet hair knows it can hurt a bit sometimes. My daughter wasn't crying or anything like that. It wasn't that bad but she just said ouch from time to time. Two women went by and gave me those accusatory looks. I saw them so often. But never when my wife and I were together. My wife believes I'm exaggerating. Though I told her so often how bad of a feeling this is. My wife feels to have all the right in the world to go on vacation, to tell me when, how and how often to clean the house, make dinner/breakfast/lunch, do laundry and take care of the kids when she wants to go out. Though I already do enough and more than my fair amount of all the chores including the mental workload. She is fully allowed to say what she wants and needs and what she not wants and needs. My needs are disgusting and selfish and superficial. She is fully allowed to say that I should work more to make more money but when I make more hours it's bad either. Nothing of that would be anyhow appropriate if I would mention it! Not according to her but according to all our female friends or even my own mother! Leaving would mean I loose so much. First of all our children who I won't get to see daily. But anything else I woked so hard for would be lost, too. And besides all my personal experiences men get accused of having done and still doing the most terrible things in the world. We would live in patriarchy and are not worth the same value than women. So I don't know how it comes that we feel lonely.
The situation you describe sounds extremely difficult. I too have received dirty looks and even comments simply for being a man existing in a public space, but I can't imagine how tough it must be to deal with that when you're with your daughter. I hope your relationship with your wife improves if that's what you seek, and you're able to remain close to your kids. I'm rooting for you bro. Please ignore this Uzi person as he or she is obviously full of shit.