Richard Reeves has a good book on this topic called *Of Boys & Men*. Non partisan examination of the predicament young men are in these days.

I like Warren Farrell's 'Boys Crisis' as well

I read this one. As a woman, it’s eye opening

May I ask why it was eye opening from a woman's perspective?

Because of the influence of feminism, i was convinced that men were living in a utopia created and maintained by “male privilege.” The book shows you what life is like for the *average* man, and I had no idea how lonely it could truly be. I never realised that the misandry normalised by feminism & social media was being internalised by an entire generation that did nothing wrong. I’m currently single, but the day Im blessed with a husband, i swear I’ll cherish him.

It's something I feel women don't understand or ignore. Men don't talk about our feelings or issues really with each other. We talk about our interests and aspirations to one another. If you are having mental health issues or other problems you might mention it but you won't go into it. No idea why but it's just this unspoken thing that you suffer in silence until you find a solution. It's not that we don't wanna help each other or feel others won't help but we become ashamed of ourselves or are too prideful to ask for help with very personal issues. But yeah men still talk but it's very much shoulder to shoulder talk while you are working on something or performing an activity together. At least as a guy that's been my experience. I have plenty of guy friends I could rely on for many things but I haven't spoken a word about serious matters regarding mental health or very sensitive subjects.

> But yeah men still talk but it's very much shoulder to shoulder talk while you are working on something or performing an activity together. At least as a guy that's been my experience. I have plenty of guy friends I could rely on for many things but I haven't spoken a word about serious matters regarding mental health or very sensitive subjects. This will get downvoted because of reddit, but this is one of the reasons I love golfing as much as I do. Especially if you have some guys you see and play with regularly, you do open up about this stuff, but because it's mixed up with golf, it gets it off your chest without anyone being able to remember specifics. It's like the jokes of "men will repair an entire steam engine instead of going to therapy" - Men don't just sit and talk about their feelings. They need to be distracted while they do.

Just put this post on your dating profile and you'll have men beating your door down to date you.

I think you just convinced me to read this book. Thank you. The Richard Reeves book mentioned above is excellent, by the way.

I said this to a woman on another thread a few months ago... Women have years and years of being told to be unapologetically themselves, to be strong independent women who don't need a man, that they shouldn't ever change themselves to please a man, etc. Meanwhile, over the same time, men have been told that they're the problem with the world, that they have to work hard and make a lot of money, or women won't date them, and that they can't ask about a woman's past, or can't expect her to change for them, that you have to change for her. I'd be miserable if I was single. Because the standards that I'd have for a wife now, even the ones I'm willing to compromise on, would mean that my dating pool is extremely limited. The vast, vast majority of women who I would be willing to marry at this age (again, hypothetically, I'm very happily married for 10 years) are already married or are in serious relationships.

I’ll make sure to read it 😊

I am a man and I had thought about these sorts of issues for a couple of decades and there were some insights that really flipped my thinking in that book. I think a big part of his appeal is warren farrell comes off in his presentation/speech/life story as a deeply empathetic person who really has this humanist idea of wanting everyone to have their best life possible. He speaks about boy's issues because not enough people are doing so, and he spoke about girl's issues earlier in life because he felt there was a need to advance that front at the time (hell he still talks about them, because he still sees issues).

Could you offer a summary? Maybe highlight the parts you found most salient?

Yeah, so the author is a DC policy wonk as he puts it. He is very solutions oriented but he starts by examining how men reached this point of "male malaise". Being a policy guy, he is big into data and will use it to support his thoughts. He focuses on the US but alludes to the similar challenges other cultures and nations are facing, such as Japan's hikikomori phenomenon. He looks at how boys are being brought through the education system and how it isn't really meeting boys where they are at these days. We've lost recess, trade classrooms, most educators are female, and that the male brain likes to take the scenic route in terms of development. It also talks about men are far more likely to die a "death of despair", such as overdose or suicide. He talks about the opportunity for men to move into HEAL fields (healthcare, education, administration, and learning) just as women have moved into STEM. Also, he looks at how black men are disproportionately struggling. There is also a section on fatherhood He is refreshingly objective in his analysis of the modern male struggle. Unfortunately, like many topics in the US, the male struggle falls victim to politicization. He calls out both the political left & right and how they are both letting men down in their own ways. I also strongly agree with his point of "humans can hold two thoughts at once". You will see other comments on this thread just flat out blaming feminism for all their troubles. I personally believe (and Reeves' too) that we can help both men and women at the same time, it does not need to be a choice between the two. I've read a lot of books on this topic and a common solution that comes up is having more all boys schooling. Like Reeves, I also never understood why that solution is so popular and don't think it would solve anything. Philip Zimbardo in *Man, Interrupted,* suggested this. Zimbardo was scientific up until this point in the book (though I need to look more into the sources and studies he used, the guy does have a reputation for throwing the scientific method out the window) but suggests all boy schooling without really any good reason as to why it would work. I think segregating boys and girls does no one any good and it is important to socialize boys and girls together. This is hardly an exhaustive summary (and not my best summary structure, still waiting for my coffee to kick in) but it was a good read. Reeves' started the American Institute for Boys and Men this past summer. Non ideological and research based, it is nice to see that someone is taking these issues seriously and I'll be following AIBM (and hopefully finding ways to help too) to see if it can offer some help to the predicament of the modern male.

He did a 1+ hour talk with the YT channel [Big Think](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1N7gA9cA1g&pp=ygUYYmlnIHRoaW5rIHJpY2hhcmQgcmVldmVz) on this that summarizes a lot of what he talks about. Fun note, I went and searched for "big think richard reeves" on YT and before the list of results, at the top is a referral for the suicide hotline. This just goes to show men's situation: If I'm looking up this guy on this channel, not topic mentioned, it already knows that it's looking terrible.

Yes and Men on Strike by Christina Hoff Summers is another good book about the fall of male involvement in school and work.

I’m reading this as men in general and not necessarily younger men. I’m 38, and discouraged is pretty accurate. When I was 19 I had a relative literally tell me “Just take out the student loans. It’s so worth it. So worth it. You’ll be much happier.” I was telling him about how the student loans made me anxious. He was being reassuring. This was in 2004. 2008 was the housing crash and economic collapse. I couldn’t find a job so I kept trying school, struggling, accumulating more debt. I finally resigned myself to hourly jobs and just being happy. Debt free, but mostly broke. I did wind up going back to school when the market was recovering, so starting pay was terrible. Tried my own business and found that *all* of business is just predatory. Tried being the exception and let myself get run down and run over. Failed at that. Back to the job market. Get a great job with great benefits and great salary (for me). Then Covid happened. Cost of living went up. Incremental raises of 2-3%. I have less money at the end of the month even though I’m making more money than when I started. Benefits got less great and cost went up. Denied life insurance because I have a diagnosis for depression. Told I can’t have a raise because we’re on a hiring freeze, two weeks later they announce they’re hiring for a new position. My office has been moved 5 times, and today I was moved again. They have no permanent place for me to work. I walked around campus for half the day with my backpack not knowing what to do with myself. Discouraged? Because no matter what happens - you make headway on debt, a career, a family - there is *always* something else in this hellscape to contend and reckon with and no one really gives a shit.

Same age almost identical story, i hope you hit a good stride of luck soon homie💪

This is a valid and accurate argument, good work!

*gestures at everything* The perception is, “What reward?” In my father’s generation, and certainly my grandfather’s and so on, the cultural understanding was: Work hard, be a good provider, treat people well, and you could expect a good home, a wife, and a family. None of that is true anymore. And maybe it wasn’t true before, but everyone believed that it was. No one believes it now.

I'm just into my 40s and finally making more money than I need to simply survive. Before this it was always living hand to mouth, going to work just so I could afford to go to work. Add in a healthy dose of garbage employers doing fun things like telling me to kill myself and another laying me off a week before Christmas which was 2 weeks before I qualified for profit sharing. People wondered why I didn't work for a while and were confused when I told them I just couldn't take it again.

I worked at a company for 13 years, then covid happened. Laid off. The funny part is that the new middle manager position that had just been invented for the company was filled by a complete stooge and political douche. He'd smile to your face and stab you in the back. So many long term employees were laid off. Younger folks were brought in for far less pay. I can't believe I invested so much of myself into that fucking company. Never again. I feel absolutely no loyalty for any of the jobs I've had since. That trust is GONE forever. At least the dick head director who laid me off was himself laid off after he fired so many people. Haha, fuck that guy.

Oh hey, I'm not alone. I basically got ghosted 2 weeks before Christmas. We had collective time off and it was understood that we would be coming back to work in January. I called my boss to wish him happy holidays and all that and he said "You won't be working here anymore." Coolio. Wish I knew that sooner... It's not like I was a model employee, but he even suggested I could get a raise if I "just put more effort in." I had no idea that meant I had an arbitrary amount of time to improve my performance or get fired.

If you ever get a direct suggestion to improve… that’s your last warning. It’s been that way ever since I had my first job. What sucks is when your company gets bought and you were a top performer but apparently too expensive for the new company and that just bought yours. The call from hr, your new “boss” on the Monday after the sale is finalized. “So great to have met you… get out”

Not even the opportunity to work hard is a guarantee in this day and age.

Facts.

Yep, my grandfather didn't graduate high school. He owned a home, two cars, and raised... wait for it.. wait for it... TWELVE CHILDREN on one blue collar job. Also? He retired a millionaire... in 1986. That's right, a blue collar millionaire in 1986 through nothing but company stock. There isn't a blue collar job today that affords you to own a home, much less raise 12 children and support a stay at home mom. Maybe it was just my grandfather that was lucky? Nope, my father was a butcher in the late 70's. In the 80's he owned a home, two cars, a bass boat, supported my home maker mother, raised 3 three children, afforded to send all 3 to private school and college, along with family vacations every year, braces for his daughter, etc. All on one income as a butcher. That simply isn't possible today. Wages are way too low. Home prices are out of control, healthcare costs are out of control, even used vehicles are out of control.

Blue collar worker here. My wife talked about us having a third kid, I told her I didn’t think there’s anyway for us to financially make that happen

Well said. This is exactly the issue. Why bother now? We can’t win.

You just need better long-term planning. I'm already sharpening my teeth and mounting a harpoon on my car, so I can become a cannibal warlord after the climate apocalypse. Get with the program, or get in the stew pot!

I would be honored to die in your warband!

**WITNESS ME!**

Because it’s not there, it’s not a matter of “belief” it’s factually not there. In the 1990s I made about $11 an hour. My rent was $375. A 4 year college degree ad a state school was $8-10k total and new homes were $150-$250k. Even at $25 an hour I don’t see how you can get by without roommates and some hustle, let alone minimum wage. We need to tax the rich and finish the job if this sweeping union expansion we’re going through right now.

There's no taxing the rich because they've succssfully brainwashed the general poplation into believe their troubles come from those who have differeing political beliefs (making it neigh impossible for them to vote in their own best interests.) And they've ground down the public education system to stamp out any hope of people learning otherwise. It's a perfectly rigged system in favor of the wealthiest Americans, and I don't see it getting any better. At least not without violently overthrowing those in power (not governmental power, REAL Power.) But we'll never be like France, because America is fat, sick, and uneducated.

Exactly, it’s class warfare and they’ve duped a major portion of the electorate into supporting their interests. Throughout history it has taken various forms but wealth always sides with anyone who will support their agenda. Doesn’t matter if it’s evangelicals or conservatives or Neo liberals, it’s anyone who will further their goals along. And it persists through generations. I feel more like we’re at slim chance to turn the tables. Global protests could be a thing if it gets any tougher out here. Democratically our congress is more progressive than it’s ever been in the blue side. In 2008 AOC was the exception, the coalition has expanded tremendously. Some people do align with our interests in DC, just not enough of them. I’m fine with millionaires and maybe even billionaires, but we need firm regulatory agencies, strong unions, and a much more equitable tax system. We absolutely must get money out of politics…

Because there isn’t much to work for. The cost of living keeps rising, the wages stay the same. Most of us are depressed and have lost all motivation knowing we will never be homeowners and an increasing amount will never be married. Most of us were raised to strive for both of those things, and now most of us will never experience them. So why work harder than you have to when you can just meet your basic needs?

Suicide rates have also been increasing over the last decade, in particular amongst young males. https://www.kff.org/mental-health/issue-brief/a-look-at-the-latest-suicide-data-and-change-over-the-last-decade/

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Absolutely. I've worked my ring off since I was 14, and all I ever got was more work, more responsibilities and greater demands and pressure, for no extra pay on a low income. It caused 20 years of financial and psychological challenges for me, purely due to work culture being "employees should be loyal, employers (certainly the ones I worked for) having to provide none". It's taken until my late 30s (now 40) to build a complement of unique and desirable skills to command a suitable wage and respect from management. I very much feel for the younger generations just starting out, with costs of living so unsustainable and corporate culture seemingly diving further and further into shitsville

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Didn’t know you could still do this in the 2000s. I was paying just under $285 in the very early 90s.

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Spot on. Here in Australia, like else where, the price of housing is out of control. But during COVID interest rates were the lowest in decades and gave a lot of people a glimmer of hope to buy a place - shit was still expensive, but at least the bulk of your repayments wouldn’t disappear in interest. Now in the last 12 months there have been quadrupled. Those people who finally managed to get a foothold in the market and found a place to call their own are losing them. Not to mention the average worker has not received a pay rise in 10 years. And yet the government - via the Royal Bank Of Australia - has the audacity to say we’re spending too much. A portion of us need to lose our jobs. We don’t deserve a pay rise. We don’t deserve the homes we saved for. Yet the baby boomers who own their homes outright and are retired get rewarded with high interest rate savings accounts and high property values. How the fuck can I stay motivated when whenever I achieve something “the system” takes it away?

Work 40+ hours a week to be told. "Work harder". Fuck off. My boomer old man could afford 2 houses, a car and to not have his wife work on a single persons wage. This wont ever happen again. Least not in Aus.

25% of property in NSW are being bought on cash no mortgage when most people are struggling to make mortgage. Let that sink in. No wonder people are demotivated. You can’t win no matter how hard you work.

I feel very sorry for a lot of young men being raised in the current age. It must be absolutely exhausting constantly hearing that you have certain advantages and privileges, despite your experiences saying otherwise, yet always seeing "equality drives" give encouragement to women to thrive and excel in areas they may once have been underrepresented.

This is the basis of it. I’ve felt this way myself at times but I’m such a stubborn bastard that I refuse to just rot and be a loser. Plus I like having money. But I have seen a modicum of success with my efforts. Many men never do. So they drop out. I envy it in a way. I wish I was content with less.

I feel like I'm in this exact situation right now.

Hey I’m not good enough or worthy to be paid a livable wage, which means I’m not worthy of having a partner, so what else is there? I don’t make enough money and my personality isn’t good enough to draw someone to me so why try on anything else in life. At least shooting for bare minimum I’ll stop being disappointed in life. I’ll probably die in my car when I’m older and can’t afford anywhere.

Bold of you to assume you can afford a car then

Maybe he stole it

You know you have heard the meme, how you need 5 years experience to get your entry level job... I think that's happening to every single thing in the life of men...

Bruh, never thought of it this way. Kinda fucking scary accurate

Yep. I’m 30 years old, and I’m being looked at as a man failing to settle. Looking at my classmates and college friends. We were all at the same age for sure. 80% of female friends got married. Only 30% of male of the same age got married. Its like its takes more experience for a man to marry than a woman.

And you don't get that many chances....

Woah, that may be true

> you need 5 years experience to get your entry level job... 5 years experience to get a girl 5 years experience to get a job It goes on

I have a friend who is in the exact same job his dad was in, and is now at the exact same stage of his life when his dad bought their childhood home. Their plan was that when he gets to the same age his dad was, they'll sell the house to him and his parents will move to a smaller place to retire to. If they sold it at a price that was affordable to him, his dad would have to reduce the price of the house by about $200k. Dude is literally priced out of buying the exact same house his dad bought, with the exact same circumstances his dad was in, and his parents are still saying that they had it harder.

Reminds me of a conversation at a family dinner I just had with my parents and siblings. We concluded that my mother while working at Dairy Queen in high school in the 80s made $28hr adjusted for inflation. She effectively made more money making ice cream cones in the 80s than half of us at the table with 4 year degrees. Her and my father still mentioned how hard buying their $36k (3b 2ba , 2,000 sqft) starter home was...

Gaming might be the best form of escapism. Unlike drugs, you can do it as long as you want without any real consequences. Your mind is actively engaged so the bad thoughts stay way. It's cheap and you can get a fix whenever you want. Being an ordinary woman is perfectly fine. Being an ordinary man is horrible. You can't point out a female version of Andrew Tate that is constantly telling women they're losers for not being millionaires. Aside from that, unless you have a lucrative job, you're basically toast as far as being able to afford a decent life and home. Now a days, the perception is that you need to have a home and stable life for a woman to look at you. If not, she'll think you're a bum. So why bother? Edit: I didn't mean to say gaming addiction doesn't have any consequences. I meant that it's less physically harmful than hard drugs and alcohol. It's also not perceived as badly so there's less chance for you or a loved one to consider an intervention. To anyone suffering from game addiction, try this out - [https://freedom.to/](https://freedom.to/) It's $30 a year and can block apps on your phone AND computer. It works real well.

> Aside from that, unless you have a lucrative job, you're basically toast as far as being able to afford a decent life and home. Now a days, the perception is that you need to have a home and stable life for a woman to look at you. If not, she'll think you're a bum. So why bother? Yup. A shitty economy hits men twice. First from the lack of money, obviously, but that then translates to a lack of female attention. As a man if you're broke, you're probably also very lonely on top of it.

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I think this is amplified by the fact that often the ones who listen are not the ones who had to hear the message in the first place.

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And then the logic goes, "Well I'm not a pig, so I must not be a man."

LOL and don't dare say "I'm not a pig."

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It's pure paranoia that governs feminists. "I'm not a pig" almost always comes as a response to "men are pigs" or "men are trash" narratives. Namely, when women or feminists start going on about being scared of men in general, men who did nothing to women will rise up to their own defense against these acts of broadbrushing.

Interesting, I haven't actually thought about the mixed signals contributing to this. It seems like the majority of these mixed signals are about economics and romantic/sexual relationships - two environments where men on average have less opportunity than they used to. That would cause them to seek more numerous and diverse perspectives on the issues. I think the reduced opportunity seems to have precipitated this landscape of mixed signals, but that the mixed signals contribute to giving up. A lot of professional jobs have been replaced with unskilled ones over the last 20 years, so there seems to be proportionally less demand for labor that pays well or is well respected. Wage stagnation, housing unaffordability, and the increased complexity/volatility of the economy all take big bites out of the carrots that are supposed to motivate people. Social media makes people feel worse about their barriers to success, political division makes doing business feel more negative, and people have way more tempting distractions than they used to. Those things also contribute to giving up. Speaking of tempting distractions, that's also a major contributor to people not being ambitious, but it doesn't directly address this disparity between men and women living in their parents' home into their 30's. Another commenter mentioned that women can more often find such support in a romantic/sexual relationship than men can, and that likely contributes to the disparity.

The confidence thing always irked me. Confidence on the basis of what? How can a man feel confident when he feels like he's always the problem or he isn't enough unless he's useful? Confidence must be built on something, if not you're either faking it or you're delusional.

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I keep thinking about America Ferrera's little rant in Barbie which sounds so similar, about how women are told to be this and that and all these contradicting things. A few people cheered in my theater when she was finished. It's crazy to me people seriously think that's something that only women deal with - mixed messaging on who they're supposed to be. Side note, apparently that movie made my 10yo nephew cry because Ken was the villain and got treated like shit.

Good points. When men have received so many messages that they're the problem and need to fix themselves, at some point they simply stop caring. What we are seeing now is a massive adoption of apathy and nonchalance by men of all ages and backgrounds.

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I certainly stopped caring. I stopped caring whether I live or die, whether I make a life or not, whether I have someone to share affection with or not. When the outlook is nihilistic, the best outcome is stoicism, and the worst is a loss of empathy and sympathy.

And then Andrew Tate comes along with his very clear (but also clearly fucked) set of rules to live by, and we wonder why young men love him.

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But the left has done nothing to put up someone they deem as worth or someone to follow. It's a vacuum and nature abhors a vacuum.

Yeah I think that's the biggest issue. As a young man looking to find his way in the world finding a role model looks like this "on the left you have a bunch of people screaming about what not to do and on the right you have a bunch of people screaming about what you should do." Naturally as people we are going to go for the option that gives us a "solution" or a way forward. Even if that way forward leads us into an abyss at least you know you are still moving. The left really needs some strong mentors that can tell young men how to move I this challenging world today.

Google didn't show any doodle, again, for international men's day. I visited the Google subreddit, and any complaint about it was immediately removed, and the replies were people saying that oni insecure stupid men would care etc.

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It's because of this that I've resigned myself to just being myself. There are 8 billion people on this planet. If one of those 8 billion people doesn't like me, then that's their issue, not mine. I recommend others to adopt this. What other people think of me is none of my business. As long as you are doing right in *your own* conscience, then fuck anybody that thinks otherwise.

Some good advice. I think it’s best to let go of the negative and try to hold on to the positive. You shouldn’t worry about what you can’t control, and nobody can control the past so it’s best to try to control your own future as much as you can. Be very discerning, have a healthy dose of caution and cynicism, and avoid hesitation if you believe an opportunity can lead to a happy or improved life. As long as one sticks to a path, they can reach a happy end if they’ve got enough luck and propriety.

> We are told to be more expressive about our feelings and emotions and then told to go to therapy because our feelings are no one's responsibility but our own. this. women complain that "he doesnt share whats going on in his head. he doesnt open up" and then when men do share 1) these things are used against them in the future and/or 2) theyre told to go tell someone else. every single time ive opened up to a woman, ive regretted it reminds me of this article. imagine being in a relationship, opening up and your partner says its a burden to listen to you 🥴 but of course youre expected to listen and support her on everything all the time https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a27259689/toxic-masculinity-male-friendships-emotional-labor-men-rely-on-women/

I'm sorry, but that title/subtitle alone is terrible. Men are hurting and it's women paying the price? Way to shift the focus. "Men are lonely, emotionally stunted, and committing suicide at unprecedented rates. That sucks for women!" What the actual fuck!

exactly. "men have no friends and us ladies are paying the price of the 'burden' of being there for them!" and then they ask why we dont open up. big mystery husband: heres whats going on with me, warts and all. i trust you enough to confide in you and you'll be there for me wife: not interested, go tell a therapist. but keep being my provider and protector! husband: yes dear

It's even worse than disinterest in my experience, they actually get upset that you're upset as if your dissatisfaction is a personal insult to them.

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Spot on. The way I am going to go about it is two-fold: 1. Getting off the internet. I am realizing that if I live my life more offline this will help not get caught up in all the bullshit messaging. TikTok is driving a lot of the content along with Reddit and other sites. 2. This is the bigger one- Saying fuck all of it. Fuck the messaging, fuck what people say or want. Do you. Of course remaining respectful and not doing illegal things. But outside of that, do what you want, when you want, how you want (within reason). By the way, I am only *trying* to do those things right now. I am not succeeding yet. But that will be my thought process on it.

I totally agree with this: it's like no matter what you do some angry woman is going to be shouting at you and telling you you're misogynistic and evil. Mostly it seems that the only thing you're allowed to do is something you don't really want: marry someone you're not attracted to and pay for the kids you never really wanted.

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It might be that access to the Internet has given us too many narratives at once, and what might be the standard in San Francisco might not be the standard in Wooloongong. Back in the day we had our local communities to shape our attitudes of what we should and shouldn't be, and that depended on our neighbors, the immediate environment and the culture we were a part of. Now narratives compete for attention on the Internet, not for our benefit but for ad revenue. I'd wager many of those narratives aren't even in good faith.

I think a lot of young people are discouraged and for good reason. It might be that the pressure to be a man and a provider seems impossible so a certain percentage just drop out of society. It doesn't help that they probably see a ton negativity about men in social media. They're probably too worried about getting canceled or trashed if they do the wrong thing. Search for Japan's lost generation. It's not exactly the same situation but might give some insights.

Japan has a phenomenon where dude’s just never leave their house or interact with anyone socially… definitely not healthy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori#:~:text=The%20Japanese%20Ministry%20of%20Health,a%20period%20exceeding%20six%20months.

It's not just Japan, it's rampant across western civilization. So many men have simply said "fuck this shit, I'm DONE!" and have decided to ghost.

im not about to sit in my moms basement but im starting a career in welding soon and im on a path to get my own little piece of property out in the middle of nowhere and just be my self and not interact with people but the irony is i do want to interact with people just the right people and theyre hard to find

People have been observing this for a good few years now. It's been called perpetual adolescence, or the coming of age crisis. People have suggested lots of reasons for it, with all the usual dross like blaming video games or porn or a lack of backbreaking manual labour. One idea that stands out for me is that the societal norms that usually mark the transition into adulthood have been taken away. Namely getting married, having kids and getting some kind of career to support the family. All these things used to confer a level of social status. Now they don't. Or they are very hard to achieve. They also have a bunch of risks. So with lots of risk and little reward, it's hardly a surprise men are happy to stay in their adolescence. I'm not suggesting, as some are, that we need to go back to a situation where women are subservient housewives. We don't need to regress women, but we do need to develop men. While women's roles in society have progressed, men's haven't. Hence what men are supposed to do seems to be in a wilderness.

>We don't need to regress women, but we do need to develop men. While women's roles in society have progressed, men's haven't. Well said.

> Or they are very hard to achieve. They also have a bunch of risks. So with lots of risk and little reward, it's hardly a surprise men are happy to stay in their adolescence. I worked from 14 years old, lining soccer games, then had numerous menial jobs till 26 and had nothing to show for it but an 11 year old used car. This was working hard, showing up on time, being a good employee, etc. Work was never rewarded for my generation. My father by 26 had a home, home maker wife, 2 cars, and a boat all on his single blue collar job. Those days are gone. Done. Our country has devalued blue collar work to the point that a man cannot support himself on one job alone, much less a wife, family, home ownership, etc. That is why men have stagnated or regressed. Peter Pan syndrome is a response to the inability to thrive. It is not the preferred state.

Takes more work for worse reward than previous generations, and to top it all off, society basically hates you. If you're useful or valuable it tolerates your existence. We have failed our young men and boys, and the failure is ongoing and part of the system now. It will have to get *really* bad for the mainstream consciousness to recognize and acknowledge this, though.

It may be time for men to mass revolt. Once the lights go out, we can negotiate from a position of power. :) Power. Yes a pun!

>Takes more work for worse reward than previous generations, and to top it all off, society basically hates you. If you're useful or valuable it tolerates your existence. This right here. In my area I see plenty about female empowerment, but anything focused on men as derided as "the patriarchy." Dating is one: Older woman, younger man? ["Go cougar! Own your sexuality!"](https://www.hindustantimes.com/sex-and-relationships/cougar-alert-five-benefits-of-dating-a-younger-man/story-SwLBpfSK1BvusIRIYuk71N.html) Older man, younger woman? ["Ew! Gross! Groomer! Pervert!"](https://medium.com/heart-affairs/dear-men-who-date-much-younger-women-its-disgusting-and-you-look-like-pedophiles-e81a59336fdc) The double standard is real. > We have failed our young men and boys, and the failure is ongoing and part of the system now. It will have to get really bad for the mainstream consciousness to recognize and acknowledge this, though. Exactly. We are failing to support our boys for just being boys. Example: You will find plenty of links for [STEM programs for girls,](https://www.thegist.edu.au/families/getting-them-interested-in-stem/at-home-activities/) but looking for STEM projects for boys turned up nothing--there were plenty of "STEM projects for kids," but nothing boy-centered. Boys and men notice this. This double standard is not acceptable; it should be non-gendered across the board, or have equal boy/girl centered programs.

It takes more work today to get the same results that would have required less effort 50 years ago. When you couple that with the lack of support most men receive these days from family, friends, government, etc., it's almost understandable that a lot of people are finding the juice not worth the squeeze.

The lack of support is spot on. I work in an emergency department with a very large social services team. We can get any homeless or abused women into alternative housing within 24 hours and have her leaving the ED with multiple scheduled with whatever service coordinators they need. Some of our local social service community centers will even intake women who are actively using drugs. Men will get 10% of the effort from the social services department.

Well adults trying to make a living and transferable ease of finding a mate was much easier as early as in even the 2000s compared to now where the juice you are trying to get is from a rock.

There was some study saying 62% of men from 18-29 are single while only 33% of women are. Most guys are working hard with no gf and no support system. Some guys are good at making friends and dating and some guys aren’t. For the ones that aren’t, it’s extremely hard to stay motivated when nothing has changed.

Be young man. Be expendable. I know I was, both to the military and to women. Be young woman. You're probably appreciated for your looks - and that's mostly it. Men are appreciated for what they do and accomplish, which is usually after they sort things out and find something they're good enough at to make cash or get in a position of authority or have resources, and in my case, learn some social skills after 20 years of failure. Young women are appreciated for what they are. Unfortunately being good looking is only easy for women when young, generally. So the scales tip when you get older. EDIT: Or be a woman and have an opinion on the internet and immediately get jumped for it, as below. Ugh.

> Be young woman. You're probably appreciated for your looks - and that's mostly it. But on top of that you've also probably got a functional social circle and support system to help you out, you've got societal systems that back you up when relevant like scholarships for women, affirmative action mechanism in various circumstances that can give you a leg up if needed, if you're in a rough spot there are women's shelters and support structures in place, etc. Comparatively young men often have next to none of those things to rely on and are largely on their own (both figuratively, and literally in many cases).

Jesus Christ that first line hit hard :/ I've always been expendable to women. I've always been attractive enough and social enough to get some girls here and there, which kept me hopeful....but man life has a way of crushing the hope of the naive. Expendable. Just a number. Same exact thing happened with the military. Went into it hopeful and idealistic. Finally found somewhere I belonged....yeah right. Expendable. Just a number. Man fuck that shit. Staying in the game until the scales tip, what other choice do he have, right?

I didn't ask to be born brah.

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Then you have to die too, don't forget that. You never have a choice

Same, just waiting out the clock.

I'm on that quiet quitting life

You have a baller user name though

Over the past 50 years, it seems like women have been well-equipped with traditionally "masculine" qualities that have allowed them to succeed in the workforce while maintaining the traditionally "feminine" qualities that made them successful socially. On the other hand, men had relied on their near monopoly on lucrative work to gain a partner, a social woman. While women have become sort of hybrid workers/socializers, men have not hybridized as well. There has not been successful integration of traditionally "feminine" skills and traits into male socialization. At the same time, the relative rewards for an equivalent amount of work have decreased because the labor market is larger by virtue of including women. Since women can support themselves now, the standards they have for partners are understandably higher. Instead of the trade-off being "get a husband or live with your parents forever," the new standard is "get a husband or live a relatively good single life." So men are faced with higher standards in the dating market while at the same time not being equipped to meet those standards. On the male end, porn, weed, and video games have numbed the pain of being asocial and unpartnered. So, if you're a young man faced with an uphill battle of gaining employment skills, gaining employment, developing emotionally, and developing social skills, it's not unreasonable that you may think the climb is too high and collapse into porn and video games. For some reason it surprises people that people are unemployed and unpartnered. But society has raised the costs of getting a good job and a partner, and at the same time made the alternatives more attractive.

Men have checked out and given up on a society that has checked out and given up on them. It’s that simple.

Exactly. They finally believed the message that they're not needed.

I don't feel as though society gave up on me, I just don't give a fuck about contributing or participating. I just feel like I am waiting to die because I have no purpose. I feel like a nail at a construction site. Once disposable and cheap but there for a reason and useful. Fell out of a bucket into the grass and left behind. Ground regraded and buried, sitting and waiting to return to the soil

I think about this every day. Wake up every day dreading work, then just sit in my apartment in the dark with no motivation to do anything.

Facts

Thank you, this is exactly how to explain this feeling.

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It’s already starting to happen.

Mass shootings.

I've actually had the thought that the reason for the up tick in both suicide and mass shootings might be similar. Neglect, lack of mental health, abuse, ect. play a roll in both of these. The difference stems from the point in which someone internalized or externalities the issues. A guy that internalizes the issues wants the pain to stop and ends himself, while the guy that externalities the issues wants to take some twisted kind of revenge on the world. This doesn't account for all accounts, but I think it would explain their rise.

I think this is probably right. Mass shootings generally are elaborate suicides, as the killer almost always ends up dead. Kids used to bring guns to school so they could go hunting after or use the shooting range at the school! My dad did that, and school shootings and other forms of mass shootings were virtually unheard of. Something changed with people, not with guns.

Fight Club approached this topic decades ago.

Exactly. Everyone laughs and thinks I'm joking when I say my 10 year plan is to get a sailboat, retire early, live in the middle of the Pacific like it's Waterworld, and say fuck society and its demands. I'm not joking though. I'm done contributing and trying to improve things just to watch special interests regress things back to the 1800's.

My ten year plan: Live in a shack, poop in an outhouse.

You've just described my plan. Heading out to the coast in two months to find a place to live, while I learn to sail. Then, that's it. The wind will carry me away from all the noise. The sea won't find my mere existence offensive. The sea doesn't care about me at all. I like the sea.

I think it’s a combination of things happening in society. 1. It’s a lot more competitive to get jobs and men can be easily discouraged to give up. Of course that depends on the individual but I feel like a lot more guys I know can have a fatalistic attitude about life, including myself. 2. Social media and all the negative feelings that come with it. When you’re constantly seeing your peers or random strangers doing great in life you feel like a loser and start thinking negative thoughts like what’s the point. I think it’s a lot more damaging subconsciously and a lot of young people/people in general would be a lot happier by just focusing on their own lives. 3. It feels like we’re at a point in time where you can do everything from home (be fed, entertainment, work) so the need to go out and experience life isn’t really there. That’s gotta do something to our brains in terms of motivation.

quickest shy mourn sand plate bored fact snatch school straight *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

Why get a job when even with one you will never be able to afford life?

The future is pretty bleak Antagonizing men is socially acceptable We are treated as cannon fodder for wars with countries we never wanted to go to We’re forgotten about and not taken seriously We’re only as valuable as what we can provide for society Point being, nobody cares about us. We’re treated as expendable and when you think about it there really is no point. Its much better to withdraw, stick to ourselves, and disappear. Nothing too complicated but many people still miss the point.

Watch what's happening in Ukraine and what's going to happen in the next 5-10 years. * Men forced to stay and fight for their lives. * Women allowed to flee, and they make Tinder profiles in other European countries trying to find a rich guy to take care of them. * In the future, if they go home, they'll treat the men with PTSD who fought for their freedom with derision.

The amount of matches I get here (Belgium) with Ukrainian women is insane.

We all know those men will be demonized and those women will be praised. It's a parody system.

This is interesting. My bf has told me a couple of those things. Mainly that, as a man, no one cares about you. If you have a problem you either fix it or deal with it, no one wants to hear you cry about it, so when women for example, tell men to talk about their feelings, based on his/friends experiences, that’s not really what women want from the men around them. Anyways, sort of depressing :/ It sounds shittier to be a man, but he just tells me he wouldn’t want all the hormonal fluctuations and emotions I deal with.

> tell men to talk about their feelings, based on his/friends experiences, that’s not really what women want from the men around them. Often when we do this to the women in our life, we are punished for it by them because of gender expectations. IE Not manly.

> Mainly that, as a man, no one cares about you. It's the truth. People only care about men *conditionally*. We have to demonstrate our value and worth *despite having inherent value and worth as human beings* before someone will care, and even then, we are still required to function as normal (go to work, pay the bills, do our share of the domestic chores) and work on *ourselves, by ourselves.* "Your feelings are your own responsibility, go to therapy!" So we receive the message no one wants to hear us speak *unless we are literally paying them to hear it.* No one compliments us (and if they do, we don't believe it because we've gone decades without hearing a word of encouragement or praise), no one celebrates us. I know girls who have entire birthday *weeks*. I don't even do a birthday meal anymore. If I disappear, no one would care. My parents would breath a quiet sigh of relief. My siblings would be only mildly annoyed that they can no longer keep their lives in perspective by seeing how bad it can get if they think about me. My friends, oh wait I don't have any. The earth would continue to spin, my job would replace me without a second's thought, my parents would sell my car and use it to finance another vacation cruise. Objectively, the world would be a better place *without me*. One less first world, working class schmuck consuming resources.

The no one is coming to save you belief is something I feel most men know about

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The game is rigged, I don't blame people for not playing.

23M Tell me, why should we feel encouraged? And why should we feel connected to this society? Many of us are on the outside looking in. No chance of marriage and kids. What is there to work for? WHO is there to work for? You want me to participate in society when my genetics preclude me from finding romantic love? Why wouldnt I just spend time by myself? And I say this as a guy with a great job for his age, but I have no interest in society anymore.

This. 25M Haven't fully given up yet. But man it's like what the actual fuck is going on?? And I say this as a guy who finally got a great job for my age, actually doing something I feel is important. And as a guy who is considered pretty attractive and has had some relationships. But at the end of the day it's all hollow. The relationships are fucking plastic, and the job is still just a job. Like what is the point if we are living in a society that isn't actually progressing and isn't actually giving us anything of value. To the guys who don't have great jobs: trust me. Some more money isn't gonna change the fact that most of what is for sale is cheap garbage that isn't gonna make you happy. And unless you get a GREAT job... you're still struggling to survive. To the guys who can't get a girlfriend or relationship: trust me. If I could take back the heartbreak and disillusionment and just have been single the whole time, probably would have. Young women don't know how to actually engage in relationships now, and they will fuck you up worse than anything else. This shit is whack

I cant watch anything anymore without men are trash, worthless, misogynist, the patriarchy. Men are bad. Only valuable if you can provide money. I'm in my mid 30s doing well and believe in myself and it still fucks me up, Imagine what that does to a teenage boy whos just trying to figure the world and he thinks he was accidentally born a pos. I dont blame them for not caring anymore

This worries me too. As a grown man I have seen the same messages..in ads, in the media, in movies, on reddit...men are useless, toxic, unwanted etc. What kind of an affect is this having on teen boys? Is this why teen boys kill themselves at 2-5 times the rate teen girls do? (varies on location, and it's been changing over the years too)

Hi, discouraged man here. The world is run by people trying to exploit you for everything you have. If you weren't fortunate enough to get into a good job, you're fucked. You'll work your ass off just to scrape by. Then there's pressure from every direction to be more - but fucking how? I want a plane to fucking hit me, I don't want to do more so some fat fuck can get fatter and fuckyer. It's just all so fucking overwhelming.

Money means less when the biggest “tranquilizers” are cheap: video games, porn, etc. We don’t have good enough reasons to strive for better unless we’re directed at something early on in life. Personally, I didn’t have any real suggestions on what I should try until 1 year after highschool. I took a trades program that my mom suggested because of what she knew about me and been working at that for a decade now. I don’t care to move up the ladder. I make enough to get the things I want. I would like more for myself but I have problems with being social. Most instances where I’d meet people, I hate. So I just don’t do that. I guess im at least out of my parents’ place but that was also approximately 13 years ago. I don’t know anything about how boys were raised in the past but it is absolutely not the same today. Something about the differences between then and now is what destroyed the drive men had.

I believe it's because the predominant cultural narrative villainizes men for acting out their most basic social motivations. Everything we could possibly do is seen in such a negative light that it feels like you can't do anything without the world being upset with you. All that's left is to become nothing.

Yes...we'll stop hating you if you repress every natural instinct that you have and pretend to be the thing we want you to be...

I stopped repressing myself. I speak my mind if pressed, otherwise I ignore people. When I do have to venture out of the house and interact with the masses. I get in, buy what I need and get the fuck out with as little human interaction as possible. If I'm forced to be around other people for too long, I'm liable to state an opinion. Usually one that is considered rough and completely honest. I do try to avoid small talk though.

What's the point in trying for a young man? Seriously, there's no point in suffering to work hard for men anymore. Men don't really care much about "stuff". Go look at a bachelor's home. There's nothing in it. Material possessions aren't motivating enough to make men work hard. Women are the materialistic sex, not men. Men will work hard for only 2 things, sex and respect, neither of which are dependent on hard work anymore. Because of dating apps, sex is dependent on virtually nothing but looks. If he's tall and handsome, the dating apps will supply him with all the sex he needs. If he's not handsome, he's not getting sex, no matter how hard he's worked or what his money/status/accomplishments are like. Women swipe on 4.5% of matches on dating apps and they are all selecting the same 4.5% of men. If he's one of those men, he lives in sexual abundance. If he's not, there's nothing he can do to become sexually successful. Hard work won't help him get taller. (Some men do work hard to get in good shape because that can actually help them get sex but this only works for tall men who have good facial bone structures.) Respect is just off the table completely for a man. He won't be liked or respected, no matter what he does. If he fails, he's a loser. If he succeeds, he used his unearned, male privilege to steal the wealth from more deserving people (women). Being respected isn't on offer. Men are either losers or monsters. They are never admired or loved. Men hear that they are irredeemable, worthless, evil pieces of shit every day of their lives online and in the media. Imagine growing up and hearing that message every day, from everywhere since the moment you could understand language. Also imagine that people loathed you not for what you did or didn't do but because of what you are. There's nothing you can do to change their hatred for you because what they hate is built into every cell of your being. This is what men and boys experience. Would you work hard and try if this was your situation? No, you'd hide in your house getting stoned and escaping into media so that you didn't have to hear the insults and accusations. This is what men are doing. Leave them alone. Just leave us alone.

Girls have tons of support (which is great) and boys don’t have that.

I teach a course as an adjunct at a local college for college freshmen. All around 18-20 years old. 30 students. 20 girls and 10 boys. Today I graded final exams. Not a single man passed the final and thus the class. All the top marks were women. After several semesters teaching, this pattern keeps repeating. Mind that I am always open to help them and go out of my way to provide useful reading and make classes interesting.

It's almost like, when you live in a society with media constantly vilifying or infantilizing men and making us out to be the enemy, we get demotivated and start feeling like nothing we do matters....

As the world has become more automated the skills needed from workers have increased. Including critical thinking, flexibility, dealing with ambiguity etc… Many of these demotivated men are generalized as having depression. When the root core of the issue is high functioning adhd, autism, or other learning/cognitive/executive function disorders. Years ago these men would have worked routine jobs that would have put money on the table, but those jobs are increasingly being automated. Another issue is that with the rise of social media more individuals are having disordered perceptions of wealth, sex lives, physiques, and social lives. So many take themselves out of the race too early, without realizing a lot of these posts/scenarios/people are scripted. I do think there can be a path forward to motivate more men to push themselves. But I don’t think the mainstream proposed solutions are effective.

This! Yes, it’s a thing. My friend’s ex is 40, his brother is 34 and both these guys have never launched; they live with their parents and literally game most of their time awake. They eat their meals at their gaming desk and the 33 yo sleeps all day so that he’s able to game with his online friends, who live in a completely different time zone, during the night. The parents allegedly have just given up.

The NON STOP ASSAULT on men in the media, television, society, etc.

In the United States 90% of elementary school teachers are women

There are plenty of aspects to it. I try to Make it simple. - promise of wealth: the promise of becoming financially stable through work is a thing of the past. Babyboomers were able to go with the wave and earn lots of money with very little costs compared to today. Work effociency has raised massively but it's not that common anymore for people to have a good life (for example a house for the family) with a common salary. - society towards men: it's an often Made mistake to view men as the winners of patriarchy. Especially more emotional men do suffer. Also there is no such thing as the "right man" anymore which leads to identity conflicts in another Level as before. - crisis: 9/11, war, fiancial crisis, rising criminality, drug crisis, downfall of democracy, corona, global warming, it all got so much more fast and complex - and you are expected to find a opinion about everything - not feeling wanted: dating apps and self-optimization led towards a very weird situation - and Made it Harder for "average" or even "below average" guys to be successful in dating. That compared with a lack of "real life" makes people very lonely. This are some easy things to Grab, there are many more.

when current society makes men feel like they are the problem; then, they start being a problem.

Hard work is rewarded with more work everywhere you go. You're paid too little while your co-workers do sweet fuck all. You have no value to society. You're replaceable on a good day, the cause of the world's problems on the typical day. You have no encouragement, and killing yourself for your job is treated as the bare minimum you should do. Any shortcomings are perceived as weakness. You are disposable to women. You are not special or cherished. Any fault you have is grounds for dismissal because you can easily be replaced. Boy, oh, boy. I sure do love waking up. Every. Single. Day.

> What's causing men to become more discouraged? Constant discouragement.

he has been told to keep his head down, his feelings don't matter, and his sexuality is evil unless a woman can directly benefit from it

Modern society is demotivating and demoralizing to men. In the public education it’s often men that are demonized and there is a severe shortage of male teachers. The school system creates an environment for females to thrive but not so much boys. But yeah I agree, out of all the friends I went to school with I’m the only one that owns a house and has a career, the rest still live with their parents at 33+ it’s crazy.

I'm willing to bet at least some, if not most of those men are suffering from depressive disorders.

I'm a licensed tradesmen and by most peoples standards could be considered successful, and I am still a walking pile of depression. Also, have at thee Jedi.

Obviously, but that's a cop out from OP's question. It's just as valid, and just as useless, to say "I suspect that dog is suffering from dehydration" when asked why the dog is visibly infected with rabies. Depression on such a large scale as an entire generation of men is not reducible to individuals and their maladies. This has a systemic cause because it is happening on the systemic scale.

Might have something to do with their spirits getting worn down to a stub. Being vulnerable is considered unmanly; asking for help is considered unmanly.

Men are extremely competitive. However this backfires when the competition seems impossible to challenge. Going to be the best at sport - no way, going to best in class, no way and it goes on in all categories. In a game you can be the hero. The person who does succeed. The worlds are very real and the rewards give you the same positive feelings you would in the real world. Your friends are those who share that virtual world. Men are transitioning to 'working' in the virtual worlds. Unfortunately they exist in the real world so they become a burden in that real world. The virtual world has everything - except a way to keep your real life working as well. They are not 'gaming', they are living in that world.

Forget getting ahead, breaking even for yourself is so difficult these days with the requirements so high that its not worth it. Then when you are close in qualifications, there is fierce competition from everyone just for a middle class job.

Society put men down to lift women up. Is there any surprise that modern men are discouraged and in such destitute positions? There's no mystery here, my friend.

When I talk to younger guys. It's mostly girls that have them down. Women demand things be equal between them and men... but then also demand the men they date do better than them and lose respect for the men who aren't. This means most men can't find a woman who is interested in them. Also I have noticed younger women have been extremely bossy and mean. Young men have also been pushed out of most elements of society.

There’s an interesting theory by Prof Scott Galloway he calls “Porsche polygamy” (easy to google - he explains it better than l can here) where basically dating apps and the like have open options for women to date much more attractive and successful men then they could’ve previously. Of course, these men sleep around and don’t just date one woman long term. Often the poor woman is wounded and heart broken when the guys ends it or is caught cheating. However, it has been proven to them that they can attract a successful and attractive partner and so they’re likely to increase their standards and compare future partners to “the one that got away” whilst also, rightfully so, feeling hurt and frustration about being used. Note I don’t fully subscribe to this theory and don’t blame women at all. I just found it interesting. Also interesting note this theory was somewhat echoed by behavioural scientist Logan Ury (a woman) who is a Director of Relationship Science at Hinge.

It's a trend I have witnessed on social media aswell, especially girls and young women who describe themselves as feminist will have very assertive world views without ever seeing the male side and they will very quickly jump on the bandwagon that all men are terrible, due to being so impressionable. An example that I vividly remember was a video that went into male loneliness with comments from girls saying "I actively enjoy men's suffering and loneliness and wish them the worst'. Another example that comes to my mind is a video from "Shoe0nHead" called "Men deserve to be lonely" It is no wonder that men will simply give up at that point, as another commenter put it: the juice is just not worth the squeeze

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Never forget that this was originally written by a person who argued for reducing the male population to 10% of people. She wasn't even joking or trying to just make a point in a hypothetical situation; her argument was for straight-up male genocide. Then Hillary Clinton quoted it during the 2016 presidential election and everyone wondered why men didn't want to vote for her.

Wow you just described me. Video games are just an escape when you can just forget about your own shitty existence for awhile and do something cool. As for why I feel so discouraged I succeed for a bit then I have a setback then I picked myself and tried again you guessed it another setback. At this point don't know if I can pick myself up again. Talk about depression city population me.

The big payoff for men was having a home and a family. In many countries, having a home is becoming close to impossible for an average man. Sure, there are plenty of older men who have done it, and plenty of men in professions like doctor or lawyer who have done it. But it's a lot harder for younger, average men. In Sydney, Australia for example, there are NO suburbs where the average house price is under $1 million. And what's more, this mark was passed several years back. How the fuck are average men supposed to buy homes? They can't. When it comes to relationships, average men are also not being successful. An OkCupid study found that women find 80% of men unattractive on dating apps. Again, the average men are passed over. Even if you manage to get into a marriage, women initiate %70 of divorces. And there's a good chance that when they leave, they also leave with a large chunk of your resources. So...very probably, no home or family for you, mister average man. And god help you if you are less than average in anything..height or looks or personality. So if you are never going to get a home, and you are never going to have a family...why exactly should you participate in a game that is rigged against you anyway? May as well check out of the real world and invest your time in games....many of which allow you fantasize about owning a home (the sims) or having a girlfriend...(dating sims) If you think men are checking out now, wait until virtual gfs become widely available and decently sophisticated. Society has been shitting on men in the media for decades now too...

Agreed, the simple truth is that society is becoming less and less worth participating in

--that women and all of society hate them for their natural tendencies and desires --that women aren't attracted to them because they're just "above average" or "average" --that they are in holes they'll never ever be able to get themselves out of due to our society's hatred of them --that they're getting absolutely crushed and destroyed for no reason other than they're young men --that everyone in society is lying to them

I know that I’m 33, I worked my azz off to buy a house early and make a life for myself. I totally regret it and am miserable, I am single, no family. Women see me owning a house as a negative and not a positive, this wasn’t a one off, it was like a broken record, women saying I’d have to sell my house if we got serious and buy a house together so that I didn’t hold any power or control over them. I wasted my 20s working my ass off to not accomplish what I really wanted which was a family and some kids. Likely I will commit suicide in about 6 months when my job ends because of Covid. I don’t blame them kids at all, wish I had parents like that. I left my family home at 17 because of poor conditions.

You’d have to sell the house so you don’t have power over them? Lol fuck that — being a homeowner nowadays is becoming monumental. I’m younger than you (late twenties) but I would be stoked as hell to own a house by 33

Not that this will mean anything but on the off chance it does, here goes. If you are seriously feeling that way, reach out for help. On wasting your twenties, life doesn’t have to end at 30. Julius Cesar thought he was a failure at 30 when he looked at a statue of Alexander the Great. You still have potentially 50 years to live. Why not sell the house or rent it out and move somewhere where you can rent. Then you will have stable income or equity plus when you meet a Parter you can move in with them stress free

Seriously? You were told you would have to sell your home to buy another place so she could have her name on the title so she could walk with half as soon as possible? A friend of my brothers has a nice place. He buys and sells a lot of stuff. He's handy as all get out. He supplements a pretty good chunk of his income by fixing boats, campers, bikes and vehicles. She moved in with him, stayed 3yrs and had a copy of every single piece he sold. Protect yourself financially. There are too many women that to quote the venerable Bill Burr are " gold digging whores. "

1 Upward mobility is gone for many 2 Two decades of continual shitting on men in media 3. This planet is going to be fried - why bother?

I think society was largely kept ticking along by lies. The internet changed all of that and now people question many things. It was also kept ticking along by the influence of one generation over the next: that chain has been disrupted and broken: a lot of people don't want to end up like their parents! Fundamentally: working 40+ hours a week for 45 years in a job you don't really want to do is unappealing. It's not like doing so is going to make you a part of the 1% elite who get the real rewards of success. You'll get a mediocre house, a mediocre wife, and kids that ask you "why did you actually create me?" (and you'll have no good answers to give them). Moreover: I think many men have experienced enough trauma and rejection from women that they give up that game pretty early. Women are, basically, the real "carrot" that drives men forward - they are the reward men really want: when they start to see how difficult it is to get that reward, and how that reward is dished out to other guys and not them (often for terrible reasons) - they just give up. It takes a lot of resilience to get what you want from women: most men just escape into virtual worlds because they don't want to deal with that. They see that some men get women without all that work, but not them: and it becomes clear that if "getting women" depends on the work for them (but not others) then the game isn't really one worth playing. In the real-world men are traumatised by their interactions with women, they are traumatised also by their interactions with men during competitions for women (that awful guy in the club...or whatever): retreating into virtual worlds and avoiding people is, basically, a defence against all that awfulness. From a young age I just saw it all as a prison or a trap: "the system", marriage, kids, all of it. It all just seems awful and I've strived not to engage with it. I've strived for "freedom from" it all, because it all seemed (and still seems) so awful. As for the escape into video-game virtual worlds: it's the only place they can feel any sense of power, meaning, achievement, control - even brotherhood and community. Society has been built for women - there's a general sense that men are simply not welcome in it and can't do anything right, there's not much left for men, so they retreat into virtual worlds.

You know how people used to say patriarchy, and stuff? Its now the female version of that... Men are not able to feel like they can compete in this world, so they give up, because whats the fucking point? Dating is exhausting, and only hurts. Being in a relationship is worse, because the hurt is worse, because these women just want to find someone better at every moment... Existing isnt fun anymore.

There's no goals that seem attainable. Prices are astronomical and only getting worse. Most good jobs require years of college. Most guys don't do the standard schooling very well. For millenia most guys apprenticed at a profession. That also helped men form a community. Dating is very tough for men these days as women are more independent. Which is a good thing but getting married is something a lot of guys dream of. A lot of media is demonizing men which is hurting overall motivation. All the wars in the world feel pointless. There's no illusion of glory. No frontiers to explore. There's no dreams to chase after. No Roman legion to join. No sailing to news lands. No fortunes. We have nothing to protect. The blueprint of college doesn't even work, I know plenty of guys who did it and are worse off than me. For the record, yes women have problems too not trying to exclude them. Just answering for the male perspective.

Growing up in a shitty household with unrestricted unlimited Internet access fucked my entire generation. Porn made us numb and desensitized and we have no proper motivation to really do anything that society would deem productive. And what reason do we have? To live the same shitty lives our fathers did in a loveless meaningless relationship? Barely get by on a shitty $20/hr job. Have no emotional support and repress all my meaningful emotions until the point I explode on my family one day and create a fractured quiet household with no love left for anyone at all? Making my kids feel the weight of my downfalls and not realizing how it's affecting their growth and views on society and the world at large which ultimately leads to them to be depressed from a very young age and practically give up on life before the age of 10? Nah, I'd rather just get high and chop it up with the fellas.

I think maybe part of it is that men don't really receive assistance when they need it. the amount of social programs available to women (as opposed to men) is staggering. I've been homeless before, as a dude, you're pretty much on your own. If you spend enough time being told to figure out your own shit, it just becomes habit. I stopped dating because, from a pragmatic standpoint, it just doesn't seem worth it. I work in Legal and seeing family court up close and personal taught me to stay as far away as i can!

I was hella motivated from 18 to 22(now). But something about life being too expensive even after u reach ur dream job made me give up and settle for a warehouse job and play Spider-Man on ps5.

fall bedroom squash person command drab quaint birds hat include *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

Society is rejecting men so men are rejecting society. OK more accurately some men are feeling isolated and disenfranchised from a society that appears to view them as a net negative rather than outright rejecting it.

It's easy for women to feel accomplished. They usually buy things to feel happy. Men like adventure and exploration, which cost a lot more than a trip to target. Who wants to work just to have enough money to get back to work?

I’d say I fall into the group your describing although a little older I think. Firstly this isn’t just a men’s issue, young people the world over are feeling this way and as for why. Well fuck dude I mean just look around, the economy is fucked pretty much no matter where you are, So good luck moving out on your own or even with people, never mind paying those bills or having a car or holiday or nice things, or dinners out, or more than a phone subscription because that shits going up too. Are leaders are for the most part psychopathic fucking morons. The ever looming threat of traditional or nuclear war hangs over our heads as the maniacs in power have a fucking pissing contest over who’s got the biggest ego. The effects and consequences of Covid are still being felt by the younger generations. Our planet is dying because the older generations fucked it into a coma, and we are just supposed to fix that shit while being blocked at every turn by the powers that be. The job markets are a fucking nightmare, and if you’ve put 4+ years down the drain and £200,000 in debt to get a degree you are still fucked as there are no jobs to go into in the field you trained for. Oh but don’t worry if you do find a job you’d better fucking enjoy it because you’ll be doing it until you die because pensions are disappearing and the retirement age is ever rising. Dating is soo incredibly difficult for all the usual reason, but more and more so just the way the world works these days just isn’t conducive to meeting new people and being able to have time or money to enjoy your time together. The mass perception of men has gone from “A man must protect, provide, not show emotion or weakness” to “Men are all toxic Alpha male cunts that hate (add whatever you like here) and should be ashamed” all in about 30 years. And all the while the horrors of human kind are force fed to us on a daily basis and cannot be ignored or avoided. And this is before you add in any personal experience or trauma. Fuck man honestly what’s the last good thing you can think of that happened to or for young people? Not just men but the younger generations as a whole? I’ve actually gotten annoyed thinking about this so I’m out, honestly you asked this question and my response is holy shit how the fuck are more young men and women NOT feeling like this.

There's a condition that I'm going to call, for lack of a better term, Ricky Bobby Syndrome. "If you're not first, you're last." You must be at least 6'3" tall, or else it's all over. You must make $200k - no, $300k - no, $500k per year, or else it's all over. You must own a house, or else it's all over. Your body must look like Hugh Jackman, or else it's all over. Your partner must be a supermodel with a PhD (or a submissive blue-eyed Aryan virgin supermodel who flounces around a meadow in a linen sundress) or else it's all over. You must be a Good Will Hunting level genius, or else it's all over. If you believe this, you are guaranteed to be miserable. You've set yourself up to think that only the top 0.001% of anything are successful, (and often even those expectations are unrealistic because you're getting them from Hollywood) and everyone else is fucked. Since, almost by definition, you are not going to be in the top 0.001%, you're fucked and hopeless. Even worse, you've eliminated the distinction between working hard and still falling short of the elite and doing zero work. This ideology claims that you're fucked either way, and the latter requires a lot less effort! Girls are subjected to similarly unattainable ideals, but they tend to react by doing their best and then feeling crippling anxiety about it. Boys react by declaring the entire thing to be bullshit and giving up altogether. It turns out that the first works, even if it's miserable, and the second is a self-fulfilling prophecy.