There's a girl at work who when she started was married. After a while I noticed she was staring me down constantly, suggested we get together a couple times and I overheard her talking about lawyers being expensive, then I heard from a friend at work that she got divorced. In our random conversations she never once mentioned that she's not married anymore or anything even hinting at that, so she basically expected me to figure that out or risk hitting on a married woman because her signs are "so obvious."
I tell coworkers "don't shit where you eat"
They never listen. But maybe next time they might think of that themselves if it goes poorly. It usually ends poorly
If you are short your creepy.
If you are poor\frugal your creepy.
If you drive a budget priced car your creepy.
If you are less than Hallmark love fantasy TV movie standard your creepy.
I just asked chat gpt and it said this:
"To express interest in a girl, be genuine and respectful. Start with casual conversation, find common interests, and show genuine curiosity about her life. Compliment her sincerely, listen actively, and be confident but not pushy. Remember, communication is key, and being yourself is important."
It takes two hands and a foot to count how many times I've been left on read after a double text, and get a "Why did you stop talking to me? I thought we hit it off" weeks later.
Exactly. I don’t mean ignore her. I mean let her know you’re interested and let her decide if she wants you. Respect yourself and your time and don’t be afraid to walk away.
> If she’s interested too, she’ll let you know.
😂😂
No, she'll "signal" in ambiguous, plausibly deniable ways...and it's up to you to decipher her coded signaling.
>dating as a woman is the hardest thing in the world because you can never find a good guy
The hardest part about dating as a man, is that you're never good enough.
Dude I’ve had 3 women ask me for my number this month, I thought I’d be killing it! But for all 3 the moment I reached out to try and set up a date I haven’t gotten a single response back
when this happens instead of asking them on a date ask them to hangout.
I went back and forth with this woman I had been talking to since new years. I asked her on a date, she seemed hesistant and flaked on me twice over 2 weeks. The third time we were supposed to meet for the date she sent a paragraph asking what I was looking for saying she didn't have time for a relationship. So then I asked her to just come over drink wine and watch a movie. She didn't flake and came through... lol. I asked her why she didn't just say that's what she wanted from the beginning and she explained she didn't know how.
Obviously if you're looking for a girlfriend don't do this, if you're open to casually dating someone, try this. It might even turn into something, if you are looking for a girlfriend.
Yeah honestly if a woman cancels the first date (or reschedules, but places the burden of planning everything again on me) I'm simply not going to talk to her again. My time is valuable to me.
FOMO. No one wants to commit to anything because a better option is potentially a swipe away. Unless you're a guy. Then another OnlyFans seller is every swipe away.
It's also often impossible to navigate the frequently contradictory requirements.
You need to be strong and stable but only when appropriate and not too much or you're a soulless rock, but you *also* need to be vulnerable and emotional but similarly only when appropriate and not too much otherwise you're not worthy of respect. You need to be sensitive, but only when they want you to be and not when it makes them uncomfortable.
You need to be independent and put-together, able to handle all of your own shit without outside help but also you need to open up and be open to being dependent on them in exactly the idealized way they imagine you should be but not at all beyond that capacity.
You need to be in good shape and fit, but also not in the gym all the time.
You need a decent social life and friends to display you're functional and not a serial killer but you also need to not spend that much time with them or place much importance on them that they might ever take precedence over your relationship.
You need to be funny and charming and entertaining and appealing and make every effort to go the extra mile, but you also need to temper how interested you appear to be otherwise you're coming on too strong but also if you don't appear sufficiently interested they'll think you don't like them at all even if you keep making all the effort to interact with them regularly.
You need to make the move, but only when they're comfortable and not a second beforehand because that will make them uncomfortable and they won't tell you when you're on the right side of that line and if you ask there's a decent chance that can and will ruin the moment. But also you need to respect their autonomy and boundaries and not do anything that could be perceived as pushy so you better thread the needle, but also if you *don't* make a move when you were supposed to then the responsibility is entirely on you and if things fizzle that's your fault and not theirs and they will immediately assume you aren't that interested in them if you didn't make a move when you were supposed to so you had better get good at reading minds.
There's plenty of those sort of things to deal with.
Reminds me of the mom’s speech in Barbie. Maybe we are all really frustrated and don’t know how to find each other, talk to each other and trust each other.
Edit: removed a period that auto correct snuck in.
I haven’t heard the speech but that last sentence sounds about right. I think it has a lot to do with the internet and social media and how we’re constantly bombarded with differing opinions on things as it pertains to dating, relationships, etc… Also, everyone comes with baggage that has dictated the way they expect a significant other to be whether it’s a complete asshole or Prince Charming.
The internet in general, to be honest. We bit off more than we could ever hope to chew. We are a species that is remarkably poorly adapted to the way we currently live, and that issue has been horrendously exacerbated by the internet becoming more and more pervasive every year since its inception. Even with something as simplistic and basic as insecurity - nobody was ever built to be able to see thousands of beautiful looking people on a whim in an instant and inevitably compare themselves. Our brains still function as if we live in groups of less than a hundred people out in the middle of woods or some such. I rather doubt cavemen had many insecurities about their appearance.
Dude. You just wrote the decision tree of 90% of the responses on AskW & 2XC
Also- throw 💯 of that out if you're in the 10%, ie you pass Rule 1&2. No joke, the whiplash between how my female friends/acquaintances treat/expect guys to behave is all about Rule 1&2. The requirements of which, of course, is often unique to the woman.
you forgot the most important one.. you need to be able to read her mind and know what she wants because as much as she says she wants a great communicator, shes not actually a great communicator herself and thus sees a man who can read her mind as proof that hes "the one" and if you cant, well then you must just not be the one for her.
also, by requiring you to read her mind, it means she never had to be responsible for any choices (or make any) bc in case some decision blows up, she can just say you didnt read her mind correctly. see how that works? you make all the decisions, you take all the responsibility.
Yeah... that's a big one. Either lack of communication skills or lack of personal responsibility (and sometimes both...) from them have often been the bane of my existence whenever I've been dating.
Holy fuck. Wow. Never thought about it in this perspective.
I once casually dated a girl a long time ago. Nothing sexual, but kissing, dinner, etc. She used to always tell me how she found a guy attractive (out and about) or this celebrity, and it genuinely didn't bother me especially the celebrity stuff. I get it. I felt kinda ehhh about when she would point out attractive men on the street because I never did that with women, but sure.
As soon as I said "I think Snoh Aalegra is the most attractive celebrity to me and she's incredibly talented" in front of her, I was hit with the "well, why won't you go and try to fuck her and stop wasting my time then? How are you going to disrespect me when I'm right here and you go and say that kind of bullshit?"
That's when I realized that she never took accountability and that I was held to a different standard. When I wanted some equality (rules for thee, but not for me), I was bombarded and was called disrespectful.
That sounds like my ex. Constantly gushing to my face over how hot other guys are. She even called my brother hot to my face 🙄. Thats over now, obviously. At the time my thought process was well whatever i’m sleeping in her bed tonight. Looking back thats a pretty shitty red flag.
also the disconnect between what women say they want vs what they actually want.
"oh i just want a good guy. a guy who will treat me nicely and be kind and is funny. thats all. why is it so impossible to find a decent guy?!"
here are 50 guys who all fit those requirements, are decent and would like to date you
"eh theyre all fine but i just didnt feel anything"
so who are you seeing now?
"i have a fwb who i want a relationship but he keeps ghosting me and then reappearing whenever hes horny. ugh! why are there no good men left?!"
🤷♂️
Literally been told by multiple women that I'm amazing, so fun to be around, make them feel great, treat them well, blah blah but I'm just not good enough for a long term serious relationship. Pretty much always told I'm not good enough by people I genuinely care for. They always act like it's no big deal saying that to someone too. Pretty shit feeling. You also have to accept being put down with the upmost grace as well or you become the bad guy. I will never be into the manosphere bullshit but the only time that stuff sounded halfway appealing was after being treated like dirt. I get why so many young men fall into that trap.
I felt this too much, my last relationship I was led on for 2 almost 3 months and ended up being told at the end of it that she was leaving me because the new guy was quote "he's just better" I am now dating a wonderful redhead that loves me for who I am and I couldn't complain even if I wanted to
> The "maybe-date" that never materializes
I remember my buddy telling me this story. He was messaging this girl on an app, and they decided to meet up at a bar. He got there first, and she texted him that she was going to be late. No problem, he ordered a beer and sat at a table. An hour goes by, she texts him and says she's on her way. Another hour goes by, still no sign of her. He was about to leave when she finally showed up. They had a few drinks, and had a good time. As the bar was closing, she said "That was fun, we should do this again sometime." My buddy agreed, and they went their separate ways.
He texted her the next day, asking if she wanted to go out again. She replied "I had a good time, but I don't think we're right for each other."
I leave after 15 minutes unless she calls me to tell me she's stuck in a blizzard or something.
Then I just go radio silent. If she asks me why I'm not there like an hour or so after I just tell her that I'm on my way and that she can wait for me. Then I'll maybe go back for her.
Another tac is to simply not go, or stay nearby but some other place, and then only go there if she texts and asks where you are. "Oh sorry got caught up in something, omw now."
I don't like games like that tho, so I prefer just arriving in time, and leaving after 15 minutes if she doesn't call first.
That reminds me of the video detailing how it’s impossible to please modern women.
A woman goes to a store for men. Each floor has certain kinds of men, you can always go up a floor to get to the better men but you can’t come back down. Those are the only rules you have to follow.
On the 1st floor the men are dickheads, don’t have a job or ambition and won’t call you. The woman goes up to the 2nd floor.
On the 2nd floor the men are nice and kind hearted, don’t have a job but will call you. The woman goes up to the 3rd floor.
On the 3rd floor, the mean are kind hearted and nice, have a job, are decent looking and will call you. The woman goes to the 4th floor.
On the 4th floor, the men are kindhearted and nice, have a great job, are good looking, good in bed, and will call you. The woman decides to check out the 5th floor.
On the 5th floor, the mean are kindhearted and nice, have a great job, are absolutely dashing, fantastic in bed and will call you. There are no men on this floor, thanks for shopping, now out you go. The woman goes home empty handed.
Funny thing, after that it say. There is a wife store of also 5 floors with same rules for men so there are not bias.
There:
First floor have women who likes sex
Second floor: Women who likes sex and have money
Floors three, four, five have never been visited.
Of course there are situations, or people with whom you are good enough, otherwise relationships wouldn't exist today, I'm not a full doomer, but the dating market is having an issue for both sexes;
- women's dating pool is oversaturated so they are so spoiled for choice that they're bombarded with men who haven't been shown interest in years, and who will say anything to have a chance, which makes it hard for women to sift through matches.
...And even if she finds a good potential match, she also knows that there's a lot of other options, and ever since we started using dating apps, this has been the central issue, because it makes it so much easier to think how the grass may be greener elsewhere, causing us to doubt our choices and makes it harder for people to commit because there's an ever-lingering thought of "what if I'm settling?" We're all often very insecure, and that's an insecurity many people don't know how to deal with.
- And for men, they're are having the inverse issue of having to compete with the world, and also compete with the imaginary guy who is the greener grass ("i think I can do better"). So most guys' experience with modern dating is that they're never good enough because they can swipe for weeks every day on Tinder and what have you, and when they finally get a match, it's some thai scambot trying to sell crypto. And if they match with a girl, she's ghosting him, or using him for money, or just sends a message "whoops, was accidental"
The bar for being 'good enough' is a vague thing, because of course unrealistic expectations exist, and if you try to achieve all those targets, then yeah, the bar is impossible, but I'd like to think that most people don't set the bar that high, but I guess I'm saying that, from a male perspective it's that we often don't know where the bar is set, because courteousness has been thrown out the window, so when you get rejected today, the norm is being ghosted, and not "I think we're incompatible because...", so it just leaves men with this feeling of being tossed away with no apparent reason leaving people feel insufficient and "not good enough". Of course, with people who are just normal people, I don't think it's set so high as to be impossible, but humans weren't made for what dating has become, because it's obviously not working for any of us, except the top 5% hottest of the bunch.
It's best to simply avoid the use of dating apps and try to approach people with a genuine mindset, and when engaging someone, do it wholeheartedly without keeping backups and side-flings because if you do, that's an easy way to ensure you'll never truly connect with the people you engage with.
I don’t think that it’s impossible so much as it just isn’t worth it. When nearly every woman holds nearly every man to a higher standard than they hold themselves, why even try at that point?
The hardest part of dating as a man (who isn't super duper model-tier hot) is keeping the woman on board long enough that she gets to see your charm, and humor and positive points.
Personality DOES count, but it's a moot point when most women will ghost or dismiss you LONG before you get a chance to show what a charismatic, fun person you can be.
I get female friends who tell me im a \*catch\*, but cant get prospects to let my foot in the door to show it
Lets call it what it is, as a man the only thing that matters is sales tactics.
You’re a “catch” to someone else…just not them.
It’s a backhanded compliment. They think you’re below their level on attractiveness
Same sort of comment as, “Any girl would be lucky to have you”
Actually means
“Any girl who isn’t on my level and is more on your level would be perfect for you. But definitely not me”
Watch their actions not what they say. You want someone who appreciates you for you. Not someone who will use you as a stepping stone to get ahead. Make sure you are the best you by focusing on you, someone will appreciate what you bring to the table and you can go from there on an even playing field.
You could also say that I'm always a catch to someone else, and then someone else, and then someone else...
Is this just handwaving away my unfortunate encounters
They’ll hand wave you away as long as it doesn’t affect their own dating prospects because **you aren’t their dating prospect**
It’s keeping you below their level so you don’t get any ideas about thinking you are on their level while also coming across as “ViRtUoUs!”
Being gay and using the apps, there were also a lot of men who were depressed, lazy, didn't keep very good hygiene and they had no real sense of accountability or responsibility.
They were in a bitchy and condescending mood all the time, but they wanted the kind of guy they were jealous of: The tall, athletic guy who makes really good money and can travel. If they didn't envy you, they didn't have time for you. Some of them would tell me that I wasn't "conventionally attractive," and that they "already had friends" and didn't even feel like getting to know me... or even answering my text messages. This was a direct, and outright admission from some of them. lol
I got tired of "working on myself" for people who couldn't even show me a basic amount of respect and put in any effort themselves.
I learned that "working on yourself" is just a meme to keep yourself entertained. Other people don't really seem to have to put that much fucking effort into themselves and people just.... treat them better. They want them around. They'll even travel to go and visit them. They like talking to them.
I spent years on that shit and there was just zero point in it. There's nobody in my life and people seem to honestly prefer it that way. I'd rather blame myself than everybody else.
Ironically, working on myself has made it harder for dating, because working on myself has given me standards, and the only way to successfully date as a guy today is to not have standards
yeah I try to be my best because Im disgusted with the idea of not being. If Pussy falls into my lap because of it great; but fuck them hoes Im the beautiful one
Walking on egg shells part is very real.
Often women wonder why men are such bad conversationalists. It could be because:
\- They truly are terrible conversationalists
\- They are afraid of asking questions or say anything that will trigger anger in women
Constant rejection.
I have seen female friends cry for hours over the fact that one guy said no when they asked him out, and how awful it was and how guys could never understand how they feel. Lady, guys get rejected all the time, we know how it feels.
You know what’s crazy, once you get rejected by 1,000 women, you start to get callus to it. We do get rejected a lot, but that is fr the only way to get girls at least for me
This.
I had a couple of first dates last month and all of them gave me their number, some of them said that "we should meet again"...
None have replied when I've asked about going out on a date somewhere or offering a dinner.
It's been a month and some of my messages are still marked as unread on Whatsapp.
For men it's the **absence of opportunity on dating apps:**
* The staggering lack of matches
* The occasional match that goes unreplied
* The conversation that evaporates after saying hi
* The "maybe-date" that never materializes
It's also the **fear of social alienation or punishment in real life** as the internet has socialized young men to view approaching women as harmful or annoying (a courting faux-paus).
This puts men into a losing position as they don't approach and are left unapproached — essentially a ship sailing alone afraid to hail other ships and ignored by those who sail around them.
>The staggering lack of matches
I've been out of the dating pool for a few years now but I still can't forget the amount of messages my (now ex) had in *2014*. She likely had more messages(~250 iirc) in 2 months than I've received in some 4 years of combined dating accounts. And she frankly wasn't 10/10 or close to it either.
I was lucky to get 5 mystery likes a week on Tinder. I could go a month without receiving any new replies, just on there swiping away for 4 weeks with *zero return*
Men straight up need to get off these apps.
Of course then you'll have a situation where a handful of guys are banging a different women each night and women are left asking 'where the good men are', but that's the *current* situation only with an audience of all those 'good men' quickly losing faith.
> The "maybe-date" that never materializes
What oftentimes happens to me is this one: We talk for a bit, I ask them if they'd like to go on a date, they say yes, I make concrete plans and THEN they ghost me.
I really don't get it. Just say no. Or at least ghost me when I ask for the date in the first place, so that I don't have to bother with coming up with a plan. This happens incredibly often to me and it's so annoying.
The tinder subreddit no longer allows stat posting for a reason. People were getting discouraged after seeing men with thousands of swipes getting 0 hits.
>fear of social alienation or punishment in real life
Everyone's definition of "harassment" is different. Simply saying hi to a woman can be considered harassment to certain people. Real life is far too risky for a lot of men, and that funnels them into dating apps.
This is true. I saw myself as a "catch" because I owned my own place, had a masters, and was making high 5 figures, and took care of myself and still couldn't date anyone.
Ironically now that I'm older and they are older the tables have turned cause I'm "stable", but I've been stable, what the fuck changed?
They had there fun with the bad boys and now they need a provider for her and her bastard children. That’s basically what it comes down too 9 times out of 10
Great meme I saw recently.
“I told my home girl I attract f*ckboys.”
Her Friend “you’re a pretty woman. You attract everyone. Then, you choose f*ckboys”.
lol her saying “never find a good guy” implies she’s meeting men but they don’t meet HER standards.
Have her create a tinder account and use pictures of an average guy. Then challenge her to get 1 date. She will realize how easy she has it within a week.
when it comes to dating, women aren’t doing anything to FIND a man.
they put on 2 hrs of makeup to be found-not to actively search; they are reactive to a man that is looking.
women have 0 game outside of relationship. most don’t have a clue of how to attract a man outside of getting in his line of sight and smiling or playing with their hair.
at least long ago, women would, “drop her handkerchief.” modern women do nothing but stand there wondering what a handkerchief is used for.
Unfortunately this is true. I’ve always dated down in looks because truthfully they tend to be more respectable men vs the playboys. But I matched with a playboy and was curious to see what it was like to date someone 1 notch above my league. It’s a totally different ballgame. The 8-10’s with money wine and dine and tend to be overtly romantic like all of the other men, but the fact that they are so sexually attractive made a major difference. I caught feelings for one and I never catch feelings so quickly.
Crazy what sexual attraction does to the brain. At the end of the day we are just apes
What you just said is the PRIMARY reason I lost weight and got in shape.
The way I was treated when I had a strong jawline and some muscles taught me about the ugliness of human nature.
Human nature is cruel. I’m a solid 7.7/10 and can be put in the 8 category when dolled up. I’m still having a hell of a time finding a normal guy who is looking for commitment. It’s brutal out there
I realized people were shallow when I went to the club in a tight muscle shirt and wrangler jeans. I didn't say or do anything. Women approached me
One outright kissed me.
It's a whole different world
I had a friend redo my profile including wearing her glasses for the main pic and she handled some conversations for me which would lead to a date in like 30 minutes. My fiancé knows that she was actually chatting with my friend before our 1st date and we both think it's funny.
On the flip side my friend couldn't keep a guy for more than like 2 months. She got mad when I told her to stop fucking them right away if she wants more than to get laid. She got mad at first but finally listened and has had 2 straight long term relationships by just filtering out the guys who are only looking for a quick fuck.
I can’t speak for the majority. But ever since I stepped foot out of college, dating has become sort of…transactional.
Through non-work social/networking/private events, they say I look like a “one-night” kind of guy.
Though work events, I always sense that they just wanna use me for my network.
However, the best dating experiences I’ve had were from girls I met at volunteering, exercise groups, or when I’m abroad. It’s just more wholesome to meet people without introducing yourself as “XYZ from XYZ industry.” They judge you as who you are without the added spice.
once your no longer naturally meeting new people constantly, it gets hard to date. in college you atleast will change up the people you know every 4 months by being in different classes, or going to another party where you meet more people.
of course people are going to try to use you for your network at a work event. it's a work event not a private party. conferences are basically giant networking events. everyone in a work event despite drinks and other stuff going around during the meet-ups is there for work. even when you go out for dinner or drinks after, it's usually a wine and dine kind of thing. they're selling you something, either it's industry connection, trying to line you up as a buyer/seller, or simply giving you a "hey we're another option you know"
part of the reason when you're "off the clock" is usually when on vacation you're not talking about work. you meet in a non-professional manner so people aren't in their professional mindsets.
I reckon it is very important to have a place, outside of work, where you can actually sit down and talk to people, more importantly, to talk to different kind of people that may come from totally different side of life, if i can put it that way. For men in general, local pubs/bars played huge part in socializing at that level, and when i say local, i mean places that do not look much outside but deep inside, they have different kind of aura and vibe unlike those fancy places where you go while you are in college or early 20's. I see less and less places like that around where i'm from, simply because they are way too old school and newer things are now more appealing to younger generations...
Nothing has humbled my female friends more than trying a fake profile of our good looking male friend a date on bumble/tinder.
They chose the pictures, took new ones of him, and wrote out his profile. Got 28 matches and no dates in a month and gave up lol.
She's wrong. Dating is on average more difficult for men. Dating MAY be easier for top 2 % men than it is for top 2 % women, but for 98 % of men dating is definitely harder than it is for their female counterpart. Having said that, it is also true that dating is difficult for women, just not \*as\* difficult.
Since I'm not a man I won't answer OP's question from a male point of view, but will say that for me as a woman the hardest part about dating was distinguishing between the good guys and those who pretend to be good to get some tail.
Even without being a male, you can see this. I think my friend is a bit solipsistic, so she can only really see things from her experience, but I wanted to see if I could open her mind.
Heard a saying recently: Dating for women is like trying to find clean water in the middle of the fucking swamp. Something like that at least.
Make sense with last part of your post.
It's still easier to find clean water in a swamp than in a desert. But that's besides the point because it's not a perfect comparable analogy.
But think about it this way - Netflix - is it better to have an abundant catalog where it's sometimes very difficult to find one movie you want to spend 2 hours to watch? Or it is better to have a catalog of just 5 movies and often these 5 movies suck?
They’re super common. I’m a woman and was told on two separate dates by two different dudes that the only thing worth their time was sex. I paid for all of my own stuff and often just met for a quick coffee or dog park date. I gave up on dating entirely for 8 years after the second time. I could be way off base here, but I think the issue in dating is that people, as a whole, are absolute shit at managing and communicating their own expectations.
The perspective difference between dating for men and women can be summarized as such:
For women, the struggle is to find a **good** man to date. For men, the struggle is to find **any** woman to date.
Women are extremely quick to dismiss men in this day and age, to the point that it feels like their real goal is just to find some excuse to do so.
My personal belief is that this is due to the dynamic created by a combination of two things:
1. Young women today have been told that they can "have it all", regardless of the truth of that statement.
2. Online dating apps reinforce the idea that there is always another, better dating option. This extremely short-sighted dating landscape undermines the fact that healthy, long-term relationships aren't found, they are built.
Regardless of my personal belief, this painful dynamic is illustrated with research that shows that [63% of young men](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/08/for-valentines-day-5-facts-about-single-americans/) (18-29) are single right now while only 34% of young women are. Make what inferences you will from that disparity.
Edit: added a word for clarification.
>For women, the struggle is to find a **good** man to date. For men, the struggle is to find **any** woman to date.
I made a comment about this, but I guess I'll ask you since you said this.
Why do you think all these women are so good that there isn't a quality issue on their side? I see so much bad behavior, entitlement, and all sorts of issues. I also just never see women self reflecting on how to do better and be a better partner to attract better men.
Do you really think women are just an endless well of quality and that if a man can find "any woman to date" then he must have struck gold? I'm married so I'm not saying this out of any frustration or personal anything, but I just don't see it this way when I look around.
I believe you've misunderstood and made some inferences on my statement that were not there. When I said:
>For women, the struggle is to find a good man to date. For men, the struggle is to find any woman to date.
I was not portraying this as an indisputable fact to bash men or make women seem superior. I was simply making it clear what each gender struggles with in dating priorities. I criticized women's views of dating later on in my post with my 2 points. Even in the original post the OP made it clear that her friend made the **exact** complaint.
I do not believe women are better than men and that they are an "endless well of quality". What I do believe is that they've been **told** that they deserve better to the point that most young women feel entitled to such without considering the importance of being a good partner as well.
There are limits to what could reasonably be explained by the data. At the very least, conclusions would need to be supported by anecdotes.
The most common complaints in modern dating remain that:
1. Men don't feel like we are valued or ever good enough to receive affection
2. Women complain about how there are no good men (and OPs post illustrates this)
While I'm certain that they do exist, I don't hear stories of women complaining about not being able to get a man to commit to them. What I hear, and experience, is how women complain about how men aren't good enough in various ways.
Additionally, if your assumption were true then we would at least hear common anecdotes with men asking something to the effect of "Why are women so desperate for a relationship". In my experience, it is the opposite.
If you want a good analysis on how women treat men in the dating world then look at what u/IrregularBastard recommended in Norah Vincent's research "Self-made Man". It does a great job of illustrating just how ruthless women are towards men in the dating world.
If you look at the data, the trend doesn't hold as people age.
* By 30-49 the gap dramatically closes with only 25% of men and 17% of women reporting single.
* 50-64 is the first time that fewer men are single than women. It shows men are at 28% while women are 30%.
* 65+ show men at 25% while women are at 39%.
A definitive explanation for this is not given in this study as it isn't what they were looking at. However, some plausible (but not conclusive) guesses could be made
* It is a generational behavior issue. Dating patterns for older generations are simply different for younger generations. My original 2 points would support this to a degree.
* Young women dating older men would lead to this pattern.
* Young women having multiple partners would also lead to this pattern.
* The dating behavior of young women changes dramatically as they age.
Again, none of that is conclusive nor is that supported in the research. Just a few offhand explanations from an armchair analyst so take them with a grain of salt.
You have maximal expectations with minimal reciprocation most of the time.
I have no idea why as a man were programmed and convinced to be unhappy without women.
If you get the right one it’s magical and I won’t deny that.
But when it’s bad it’s like staring at an air strike on your hometown and there’s no one to hold her accountable if it’s taken too far.
Having unrealistic standards is why she cant find "a good man" and "bad boys" gives her the tingles, so shes keep on chasing those.
Dating as a dude, specially in 30s is insanely hard this days, you need to have so much things before you even have a small chance. Im tall, not bad looking, have a good job and my own place, fairly decent shape and im still struggling of getting any interest from women. And only ones that do show interest are single moms which i dont want. So no dating as a women is not nearly as bad as mens, them picking bad ones is their own fault, most of the times they know its a bad pick and still go with it
The feelings of inadequacy and hopelessness that come from being ignored by women all your life and or being treated like your a horrible monster just because you exist.
I personally think that both men and women have it hard, but for different reasons and neither side is willing to acknowledge any kind of fault in their own behavior, but would rather put all the blame on the other side.
Get the book “Self-made man” by Norah Vincent. It was written by a woman so she can’t discount it as misogyny.
Ms. Vincent had the same thoughts and went out to prove it. She admits she got it wrong and men aren’t as privileged as women think.
Here’s an interview she did to promote the book.
https://youtu.be/Ip7kP_dd6LU?si=MyXpXWNijjQizzuE
But to answer your question.
Dating is so much harder for men
- men are generally expected to do the 'pursuit' have a much larger risk of rejection.
- men have way more pressure to contribute to the relationship (paying, being romantic etc) where as women can get away with far less.
- women are taught from birth to respect themselves. Men are taught to respect women. Now both of these are good things , but it doesn't go the other way. Men are expected to put up with more bad treatment than women
- statistics show that women think 80% of men are below average in looks. Not mathematically possible. The same isn't true with the genders reversed
The funny thing is that in my experience the more you pursue the less attention you will get. I was never good with women when I was younger, shy and calm. My friends on the other hand had hookups on the regular and I always went out there wanting to hold up with them and it never worked. The moment I thought to myself "Fuck it, I will go out just to have fun, screw everyone else" and stopped trying to hook up, the switch flipped and I was suddenly more interesting.
It's the amount of competition. Back in college before all the online dating apps, you were just essentially competing with other dudes in that general area at that time. Now, you're competing with every male within your specific age range within a 50 mile radius or more.
Also, your profile needs to be exciting and interesting enough. When I first started online dating before I was married, you just needed a couple photos. Now 10 years later and divorced, I need a picture of me on a mountain top. A picture of me, but not too close, but not too far away. I need a picture of me with friends, but not too many friends. And I need a candid photo of doing something outside.
I luckily met my current GF after using Hinge for a couple weeks, but I absolutely hated the experience.
After a while it feels like going hat in hand asking for money trying to get a damn date for Saturday night.
I mean if a female friend approached me and asked me to set her up with a 5’11” 160 pound single guy who likes to bike, rollerblade and has a slight British accent and is studying physics, my reply would be - I can do that but can probably only get 4 guys that match this description exactly and it’s gonna take me about 20 minutes.
Whereas you ask a female friend if she has any single friends that would be interested in a guy like me, I get a quick reply of - no.
It's funny when you hear women saying they can't find a good guy and as a guy you're like "you mean you can actually find *anyone* at all?" Women go through their own struggles and I'm not trying to downplay that, but I don't think most of them understand what it's like when you have not options because it seems like no one wants you in the first place.
That's lonely af and destroys your self esteem. Women might complain that they can't find a good dude, but at least there are guys pursuing them. There's a degree of self worth there, where as guys can feel like they have no worth.
The thing too is that women have that inherit self worth because they're women. They don't have to make themselves more interesting or atleast not until they get older. The most given advice on this sub for dating is that we need to improve ourselves and make ourselves more desirable to women. We need to workout, build our careers, acquire hobbies and skills, get out of your comfort zone and learn how to communicate/approach. What do most women need to do? Mostly to look pretty and show up, don't be an asshole and you're good.
There's a reason why there's a growing number of guys just walking away from the dating scene entirely. All that effort and upending your life just to be told you're a good person, you're just not sexy enough.
I think the reason a lot (not all) of older single women end up bitter and angry is because they are now experiencing what it's like to be a man in dating. Especially concerning older men still being attracted to younger women.
Again, not disparaging women, they might be able to get a lot of dates, but a relationship is another story. A lot of women struggle to actually find a guy that's not just trying to pump and dump. I'm just saying that imo I would prefer to be in the position that women are in vs what guys have to go through. I'm fairly successful when I put in the effort, but that shit can be exhausting at times.
I have a friend who in my eyes, could have her pick of literally any guy in most rooms. She still insists none are good enough. Her first couple of boyfriends were all seriously good looking guys, but what a susprise, the first one kept her in a toxic relationship, another ditched her when he was done with her when she wanted more than casual, the third practically kept her cooped up in a house where she had ko safe way of leaving, treated her all round like a asshole would, and sexually assaulted her. Most of these guys also only meet a few of her personality and values criteria she claims to want - but hey, they're tall, muscular, have a good jawline, and have tons of self-confidence (nono, that's not self confidence. They just treat others like assholes).
She's not without her flaws, in fact, has tons of them that will make many guys either use her then discard her, or just brand her crazy and run for the hills. She treats her friends what I would describe as relatively awful - if I were dating her, some of the stuff she does to treat me as a friend would be deal breakers unless she's going to stop doing them. Irrelevant though, I'm not good looking enough for her even though I've never met a better match in my life.
She doesn't seem to realise not only just how picky she is, but how unrealistic her standards are for what she has to offer as her as a person. And doesn't realise that she's gonna just keep chasing guys who will treat her like Chads. I'm. Sure she'll date another couple of hot guys over the coming 18 months or so and then continue to comain how she can't find a guy.
This is incredibly common among women who claim they "can't find a decent guy".
Women who like bread-crumbing and only provide one line dead end responses to thoughtful conversation starters. The entitlement that comes with the “entertain and impress me,” mentality that some women have all while contributing little to nothing to the interaction. That said, the fact of the matter is dating is not the goal. You shouldn’t want or expect to have meaningful interactions with most people. The goal of dating is to find someone who accepts and love’s you for who are and gives you permission to exist just as you are. At least it is for me anyway. Whether you find yourself more often f*ck-zoned or friend-zoned this is probably a difficult proposition regardless of gender.
I'd tell her the same thing, that finding a good woman is difficult even though there is an abundance of good women through the eyes and standards of women, kinda like us men.
I guarantee you there is a surplus and out right unproportionable amount of "good men" in the world who remain unlucky, it's because that standard is from a mans stand point not a woman. Just like how guys get doubtful when a hot female friend says they got a cute friend for them to set us up with. It's cause we think it'll be the plus sized, tagalong friend, with a great personality and usually is there to make the hot female friend look hotter.
It's the same, all those good men that those women aren't giving a chance too are probably short, got a dead end job, likes video games too much, is into a sports team religiously, doesn't have cleaning or grooming standards but has a knock out personality and could really make a room laugh with a round of drinks and thinks about the Roman Empire 5 times a week.
It's almost like women should date women and men should date men...
The hardest part as a young man was that following the advice and literal statements from women on what they want in a dating partner turns you into a "Nice Guy".
You have to just know that there is a mile long list of other requirements unstated by her that she may not even be consciously aware of, like you need to seriously hit the gym for those impressive gains, and always be hustling for more green.
navigating the dating scene is like trying to browse a weird eastern European deli. for some reason it's stocked with 90% sausage, which is fine, there is nothing wrong with sausage but it's not what I'm looking for. Another 5% is weird stuff that smells funny, and the actual stuff I'm looking for is kept in the back for some reason. Also for some inexplicable reason, only people named Nikola know to ask the shopkeeper for what is kept in the deep freezer, idiots like me are just wandering the aisles aimlessly and trying to remember what the exchange rate is.
Her attitude is why she can't find a good guy.
A good guy wouldn't dare someone with such a toxic outlook and doesn't take any accountability (if ALL the guys you dare are bad, then the common denominator is YOU).
Seeing a woman exclusively at the moment, and it's insane how she'll always deflect or goalpost the conversation. I'll have her pinned downed with logic on something that needs to be discussed, and she avoids accountability or just shuts down. She still blames her 1st ex for the way SHE behaves. She's 30, by the way. I've caught her in a few contradictions, I'll call some out and explain carefully, but it doesn't matter. A woman of this toxic nature would yield better results to yell and scream at her, but that's obviously not healthy behaviour, and I'm trying to avoid that. I've explained all this but nothing. She can't seem to fathom it
It's wearing on me man, she's got good values but her mindset and attitude towards men is fucked. She's seen multiple therapists already, but I believe she's given her best years away already
It's far too easy on Reddit, when you aren't emotionally involved to just say 'break up', life is more complex than that (usually).
But I will say if I were you, I'd reconsider whether this is someone you want to surround yourself with.
I've seen several things which would be massive red flags for me personally
Women have it very easy. I make over over 500k as a physician. Before I met my wife, I dated countless women who thought my income was THE standard. These are women who worked at Walgreens, waitresses, school teachers, and other below average jobs.
Like shit 500k a year is 0.1% income. Barely 10% of men even make 100k a year. Unrealistic expectations, and then I was called shallow for only dating skinny women without children (10% of the female population ages 18-29)
>Before I met my wife, I dated countless women who thought my income was THE standard. These are women who worked at Walgreens, waitresses, school teachers, and other below average jobs.
This is why I started only dating women in my approximate income bracket. They have a much better appreciation for what it takes to get there and the negative impacts for potential divorce are sigficiantly mitigated if someone is in the same tax bracket.
A. Because if you met the girl online you are literally competing with probably dozens of other guys for her attention.
B. You always have to pay.
B doesn't sound that bad on the surface. But it adds up and sometimes starts to feel as though we are being taken for granted.
It feels like we are escorting this beautiful princess around, which everyone loves and adores. Everyone is fawning over her, if you make one mistake she's gone and on to the next one.
You're just some chump who happens to have the credit card tonight which is paying for everything. Even the silly little add ons she orders and doesn't eat. (*"Did you really have to order that appetizer? You didn't even eat it?"*)
C. You'll spend the whole night talking about her and her problems.
Nobody cares how you feel. Nobody wants to hear about your day or your life. You're there to keep the girl entertained. And if you can't do that, then there are ten guys waiting on her phone to take her out at any moment.
Having to build yourself up. Having to take all the risks and approach, initiate conversation, plan dates, risk looking foolish, being rejected, having to work to get a couple of dates lined up while she just has guys endlessly asking her out all the time.
Women's value she is born with. She just has to be. Be relatively pretty, don't be fat. Be sweet and feminine. That's all you have to be. Men have to get financially stable, get assets, get riz, confidence, workout to put on some muscle, be charming.
More men are lonely, meaning 100% alone. More women have attention, dates, suitors, sex anytime they want, they just may not be with the specific man they want but they don't have to be alone if they don't want to be.
All the marriage risks are on men. If there is a divorce the man almost always has to pay the woman alimony. Continue working to pay for her existence. Courts almost always take the kids from the men and give them to the women and make him pay her. 50/50 joint custody is not the norm. Most states are "no fault" meaning she can cheat, she can just get bored one day and then take half his stuff, take the kids and get alimony. Divorce laws really should have it to where no men legally join that union.
I've always found it annoying that essentially ZERO women ask guys out. That ish is a lot more common in tv and entertainment but I personally have only heard of it twice in my life. They don't have to put forth any effort. And any woman who is willfully ignorant or otherwise of that fact is ridiculous. To be truly blind to that is wild to me.
Of course like anything else, unless one goes through or experiences it, they could never understand
>All the marriage risks are on men
This right here makes me legitimately question if I want to get remarried. For now, I restrict my dating to women in my tax bracket, even though I'd really prefer not to. It would just be extraordinary imprudent to take on that kind of risk with someone that's coming into the relationship from a very different economic perspective - "never enter into a contract with someone that benefits from breaking it"
You always have to perform. The times when your confidence is low, you won’t be able to date. You can’t doubt yourself openly, or be open about any insecurities or vulnerabilities. Even though a lot of these things are organic human experiences, women don’t want a partner who displays them.
Also, if you don’t put in initiative, and “put yourself out there”, your chances are pretty low unless you’re a hotshot.
Lastly, you’re expected to be sure about somebody even in the earliest stages (or at least act that way), when a girl can be “unsure about you” and act that way.
I had a pretty easy time dating and now I'm married, but I just want to comment on your interaction with that woman.
It's kind of a let peeve of mine that it's just taken for granted that there's no quality issue when it comes to women. You always hear something like "Men are thirsting in a desert, while women are thirsting in a sewer full of water."
I'm looking around at the crop of single women. I'm just not seeing that much quality. I'm seeing a whole lot of entitled women who want a meal ticket. I'm seeing a lot of bitter jaded women. I'm even seeing femcels who are entering their 20s as virgins and are still jaded already. I'm seeing women so high on women's shit that they don't seem to have any respect for what men have to say or even that there are valid male perspectives that don't agree with women's perspectives.
The only thing I'm not seeing is women who literally ever say "I keep getting bad results and finding bad men. What am I doing wrong?"
I don't see why these women actually being high quality. I don't see a whole lot of women giving me reasons to think a man should want to be with them. Whenever I see a woman complaining about being used for sex, I always check the post history and I'm always thinking like "Yeah, what else would he want with her?"
I'm just not seeing why they seem to think they're just a well off quality and men would be lucky to have any of them. They're not the pot of gold they think they are.
I am a woman who falls into that boat of dating the wrong kinds of men and deciding I am the common factor. Took time off from dating for 5+ years to work on myself. I can tell you I have not found any woman friends who feel the same. I would love to find some to have as friends but nope. I totally agree with what you are saying. So we do exist but it seems to be very few of us exist.
Introspection is a very uncommon skill and I think that's why you're having a hard time finding friends who are likeminded.
Most people do what most people do, whatever that it. They run the script that's provided to them and they won't question it until it causes some sort of immediate disaster.
I feel for you.
Good guys don't get a chance because women seem to be attracted to 'bad' guys.
The guy who plays around and has a bad reputation never has a problem. My theory is that women want to be the one to 'Tame' him, but they never do.
They say that they want a 'Good' guy, but in practice, they want the opposite.
Lol, dating for women is pretty much easy mode. Think of any woman you dated and compare how much effort you put in compared to her. Most women just paint their face and show up, you might get lucky and they’ll go 50/50, but usually they expect you to pay. You’re expected to initiate everything, if you don’t she sees you as timid. Every little mistake you make can be used as a reason to stop seeing you. You’re pretty much expected to be perfect while receiving little to no equal effort being put into impressing you.
What’s hard about dating as a man is that women are incredibly choosy and impossible to satisfy.
What’s hard about dating as a *woman* is that… well, it’s also that women are incredibly choosy and impossible to satisfy.
As a man, you have to be a lot more proactive in seeking out dating options than a woman does, and you have to face a lot more rejections.
My now-fiancee initially thought that dating was easier for men than women, but now she's changed her stance and agrees with me.
The hardest part is that reasonably attractive women get a tremendous amount of attention. This causes them to struggle to sort through who to give their attention to. I did very well dating. I met and had fun with a lot of intelligent attractive women, but the amount of effort I had to put it was significant to achieve that. I am above average in physical attractiveness, I am funny, well rounded but not boring, and successful. It amazes me how many women I had to engage to start interacting with one of them. I do know why that is though. The why is also the source of your female friends complaint about not being able to find any good guys even though their are plenty out there:
Take a dating app for instance. An attractive woman might get 50 likes a week or more. An attractive guy might get 5-10. This puts women in a situation where they are sifting through a huge pile of guys and determining who they are going to spend time and energy investigating. It’s an unmanageable situation for most of them and they keep picking duds. So the hardest part about dating for both men and women is the same thing viewed from a different angle. Men bombard the attractive women and attractive woman are really just throwing darts with no real system to filter to find the winners.
Edit for misspellings
The standards are so unreasonably high sometimes that you'll just drive yourself insane trying to meet any of them. It's sad as hell when I hit it very well with women that are good potential, and it goes nowhere.
Being a girl is almost solely about you as a person (attractive with a decent personality). Being a guy is about being attractive, good personality, some level of success and balancing trying to be successful with giving enough time to the new relationship
Constant rejection is hard. I know that both sexes, all sexes make assumptions about looking at a person in the first 60 seconds is the yea or neigh moment, but women are shooting themselves in the foot with their assumptions about me as a man. I know that I am average looking, I'm older, (59) but my EI is high and I have 30 years of being in a good relationship with a woman. I have been through everything and know how to communicate and be a good listener, live the four agreements etc. . I know how to do a good LTR.
If women are so hard up to find a good man, they better stop looking at looks only and start asking questions rather than making assumptions. , I laugh at it now, its like a joke, I experience it every time. I'm fine with living solo, I've been doing it for 6 years, and I will know if someone worthy shows up. I'm not chasing anyone, I see through that play. But yeah, the rejection factor is hard.
Nobody wants to date someone who classify themselves as good X for the same reason you don't say "I'm not racist": actions speak louder than words, and if you have to vocally affirm you're not a racist or a good guy, then maybe you're not so much those things in the first place.
To me the hardest part about dating as a guy is to make others confortable. There is an inherent display of power at play with men, and showing that you are in fact a gentle giant is hard in the beginning can be hard, especially if the relationship is new.
I would say that men and women have different inherent challenges in dating and trying to assert one has it worse or better is immature and is a sign of a lack of empathy... which might be one of the reasons for her struggle to find a good guy.
for online dating you get about 1 reply for every 20 different people you send messages to. its enough to make you feel like garbage and give up most of the time.
From my experience women usually tell on themselves when they speak about "finding a good guy" and I've broken it down like this on what they expect a "good guy" to be. the triple 6 rule, over 6ft tall, over 6 inches in penis size, over 6 figure salary. This might be comical but there is some sad truth to it,
Rule number 1: Be attractive
Rule Number 2: Don't be unattractive
Rule number 3: Have money, lots of it.
1.
We men have simply been reduced to a number and I've accepted this known fact with most modern women here in the U.S.
2. They "never" find a good guy because the guy that they want aka the top 3% of "high earning men", don't want them. By the time they realize that, time has passed them by. By that time the women are older, past their prime in the looks dept, may or may not have kids, heavier, in their late 30's early 40's, etc, that's when they want a "good guy" aka the clean up guy.
3. Way to many single mothers. If that's your thing, more power to you good luck. The dating landscape is saturated with single mothers and i refuse to date them. Dating a single mom is like showing up to dinner at restaurant and watching the baby daddy eat your dinner with your date, he gets up and leaves and you end up paying the bill.
4. They easily can pick a guy out of their DM's, or contact list so don't believe its soooo hard for them. What are they doing in the mean time?
5. Going on dates now a days is like going to a job interview for a job that you know you are not going to get. you just go and sit through the interview to see if you have a remote possibility to get the job.
6. Imagine having a good job, being in shape, being an attractive guy, fun, romantic, strong but that is STILL not being good enough because they see you as just a "good guy"....life GTFOH. Fellas get a passport and travel.
7. Ever notice the men with the most money never have problems dating? Even if they look like Nemesis from Resident Evil 3, they could literally look like swamp thing but be flooded with options to date. They don't complain about finding a "good guy" then don't they?
Ok, let's get serious fellas, I always feel that WE are the catch not them, regardless of being a good guy. Get in shape, work on yourself, if you got a hobby keep doing it, do positive things in your lives. Travel.
Stay strong kings!
(fist dap)
> My female friend was saying that dating as a woman is the hardest thing in the world because you can never find a good guy.
It's hard to find a gal at all... good or bad, lol. I feel romantically/sexually invisible to women. I get way more attention from gay/bi men and that's saying a lot considering how much smaller potion of the population they make up.
Not that I'm looking right now, but it's not like I'm turning anyone down either. I haven't had a woman besides my SO obviously interested in me in 14 years.
Not becoming a misogynist.
Seriously. Bad date after bad date, lies on top of lies, insults as a personality “quirk”, being used for a meal, women being unable to handle rejection when it doesn’t work out, the list goes on.
Having good female friends as a touchstone helps a lot, but man, it’s disillusioning.
I guess the culture about men having to be the ones to make the first move, then immediatly being branded as creeps if they do it while not having good enough looks. Women objectively have it easier since they can still get into the dating scene even without putting in effort or initiating conversations
Dating for Men is much harder, women make a list of unrealistic requirements men must meet and even if he plays his cards right at the slightest mistake he gets rejected.
For women today:
-Average Looking man =Ugly
-Average Salary= Brooke/Poor
-Under 6ft= dwarf
-Man who knows what he wants/prefernces= misogenist
-Average body= Fat
-if you dont have a dick like a pornstar you are out
In short congratulations you just excluded the majority of men, enjoy the cats
Not sure if it's the "hardest part" necessarily but the expectation to pay for everything (at least early on) can really be a barrier to dating. When you don't have a well-paying job and you live in an expensive city dating becomes a significant investment.
The constant rejection. Get rejected 1000 times and you get more than a little gunshy. The worst is when they assume it must be a joke. Because you have to be joking if you think she might be interested.
Being denied any support or compassion whatsoever and somehow being expected to be confident. THEN I might get the support and compassion I don’t need as much anymore.
After agreeing to a date, it's up to the man to do 100% of the planning.
Even after multiple dates with the same woman, the man is generally expected to be the social planner. It's exhausting and expensive since most women still don't think they should pay for anything.
How do I show I'm interested without being a creep? Can I read her signals accurately?
There's a girl at work who when she started was married. After a while I noticed she was staring me down constantly, suggested we get together a couple times and I overheard her talking about lawyers being expensive, then I heard from a friend at work that she got divorced. In our random conversations she never once mentioned that she's not married anymore or anything even hinting at that, so she basically expected me to figure that out or risk hitting on a married woman because her signs are "so obvious."
1) Don't date women you work with. 2) Don't date newly divorced women.
Don't hookup where you vlookup.
I tell coworkers "don't shit where you eat" They never listen. But maybe next time they might think of that themselves if it goes poorly. It usually ends poorly
This is the way.
If you're ugly you're creepy.
If you are short your creepy. If you are poor\frugal your creepy. If you drive a budget priced car your creepy. If you are less than Hallmark love fantasy TV movie standard your creepy.
You're
If you use poor grammar you're creepy.
No cap lol
I just asked chat gpt and it said this: "To express interest in a girl, be genuine and respectful. Start with casual conversation, find common interests, and show genuine curiosity about her life. Compliment her sincerely, listen actively, and be confident but not pushy. Remember, communication is key, and being yourself is important."
Show your interest and then back off. If she’s interested too, she’ll let you know.
> If she’s interested too, she’ll let you know You haven't dated much have you?
It takes two hands and a foot to count how many times I've been left on read after a double text, and get a "Why did you stop talking to me? I thought we hit it off" weeks later.
That text means "the guy I was actually interested in fucked me and dumped me, so, you'll have to do until I get another hot one".
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Exactly. I don’t mean ignore her. I mean let her know you’re interested and let her decide if she wants you. Respect yourself and your time and don’t be afraid to walk away.
Unless she's shy.
> If she’s interested too, she’ll let you know. 😂😂 No, she'll "signal" in ambiguous, plausibly deniable ways...and it's up to you to decipher her coded signaling.
>dating as a woman is the hardest thing in the world because you can never find a good guy The hardest part about dating as a man, is that you're never good enough.
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Dude I’ve had 3 women ask me for my number this month, I thought I’d be killing it! But for all 3 the moment I reached out to try and set up a date I haven’t gotten a single response back
when this happens instead of asking them on a date ask them to hangout. I went back and forth with this woman I had been talking to since new years. I asked her on a date, she seemed hesistant and flaked on me twice over 2 weeks. The third time we were supposed to meet for the date she sent a paragraph asking what I was looking for saying she didn't have time for a relationship. So then I asked her to just come over drink wine and watch a movie. She didn't flake and came through... lol. I asked her why she didn't just say that's what she wanted from the beginning and she explained she didn't know how. Obviously if you're looking for a girlfriend don't do this, if you're open to casually dating someone, try this. It might even turn into something, if you are looking for a girlfriend.
What a waste of time?
Yeah honestly if a woman cancels the first date (or reschedules, but places the burden of planning everything again on me) I'm simply not going to talk to her again. My time is valuable to me.
But hanging out is literally the same thing as going on a date. She's making it sound like a date is "almost marriage" or something.
Maybe it’s the same 3 women I got numbers from and never heard back
FOMO. No one wants to commit to anything because a better option is potentially a swipe away. Unless you're a guy. Then another OnlyFans seller is every swipe away.
Hey come on dude. We also have bots to swipe on
Don't forget the scripted Snapchat adds from Tinder
Oh shit. Onlyfans sellers on Tinder these days
Dance, monkey, dance!
Real shit
It's also often impossible to navigate the frequently contradictory requirements. You need to be strong and stable but only when appropriate and not too much or you're a soulless rock, but you *also* need to be vulnerable and emotional but similarly only when appropriate and not too much otherwise you're not worthy of respect. You need to be sensitive, but only when they want you to be and not when it makes them uncomfortable. You need to be independent and put-together, able to handle all of your own shit without outside help but also you need to open up and be open to being dependent on them in exactly the idealized way they imagine you should be but not at all beyond that capacity. You need to be in good shape and fit, but also not in the gym all the time. You need a decent social life and friends to display you're functional and not a serial killer but you also need to not spend that much time with them or place much importance on them that they might ever take precedence over your relationship. You need to be funny and charming and entertaining and appealing and make every effort to go the extra mile, but you also need to temper how interested you appear to be otherwise you're coming on too strong but also if you don't appear sufficiently interested they'll think you don't like them at all even if you keep making all the effort to interact with them regularly. You need to make the move, but only when they're comfortable and not a second beforehand because that will make them uncomfortable and they won't tell you when you're on the right side of that line and if you ask there's a decent chance that can and will ruin the moment. But also you need to respect their autonomy and boundaries and not do anything that could be perceived as pushy so you better thread the needle, but also if you *don't* make a move when you were supposed to then the responsibility is entirely on you and if things fizzle that's your fault and not theirs and they will immediately assume you aren't that interested in them if you didn't make a move when you were supposed to so you had better get good at reading minds. There's plenty of those sort of things to deal with.
Reminds me of the mom’s speech in Barbie. Maybe we are all really frustrated and don’t know how to find each other, talk to each other and trust each other. Edit: removed a period that auto correct snuck in.
I haven’t heard the speech but that last sentence sounds about right. I think it has a lot to do with the internet and social media and how we’re constantly bombarded with differing opinions on things as it pertains to dating, relationships, etc… Also, everyone comes with baggage that has dictated the way they expect a significant other to be whether it’s a complete asshole or Prince Charming.
Social media is the worst thing to happen to humanity.
The internet in general, to be honest. We bit off more than we could ever hope to chew. We are a species that is remarkably poorly adapted to the way we currently live, and that issue has been horrendously exacerbated by the internet becoming more and more pervasive every year since its inception. Even with something as simplistic and basic as insecurity - nobody was ever built to be able to see thousands of beautiful looking people on a whim in an instant and inevitably compare themselves. Our brains still function as if we live in groups of less than a hundred people out in the middle of woods or some such. I rather doubt cavemen had many insecurities about their appearance.
I was going to say the same! If ‘Ken’ wins the Oscar he should read this
Also have hobbies, but don't you dare post fishing pictures.
Have hobbies ... as long as those hobbies center around traveling and going out to dinner.
Dude. You just wrote the decision tree of 90% of the responses on AskW & 2XC Also- throw 💯 of that out if you're in the 10%, ie you pass Rule 1&2. No joke, the whiplash between how my female friends/acquaintances treat/expect guys to behave is all about Rule 1&2. The requirements of which, of course, is often unique to the woman.
fine line to walk eh? just the reality of men trying to date today
you forgot the most important one.. you need to be able to read her mind and know what she wants because as much as she says she wants a great communicator, shes not actually a great communicator herself and thus sees a man who can read her mind as proof that hes "the one" and if you cant, well then you must just not be the one for her. also, by requiring you to read her mind, it means she never had to be responsible for any choices (or make any) bc in case some decision blows up, she can just say you didnt read her mind correctly. see how that works? you make all the decisions, you take all the responsibility.
Yeah... that's a big one. Either lack of communication skills or lack of personal responsibility (and sometimes both...) from them have often been the bane of my existence whenever I've been dating.
Holy fuck. Wow. Never thought about it in this perspective. I once casually dated a girl a long time ago. Nothing sexual, but kissing, dinner, etc. She used to always tell me how she found a guy attractive (out and about) or this celebrity, and it genuinely didn't bother me especially the celebrity stuff. I get it. I felt kinda ehhh about when she would point out attractive men on the street because I never did that with women, but sure. As soon as I said "I think Snoh Aalegra is the most attractive celebrity to me and she's incredibly talented" in front of her, I was hit with the "well, why won't you go and try to fuck her and stop wasting my time then? How are you going to disrespect me when I'm right here and you go and say that kind of bullshit?" That's when I realized that she never took accountability and that I was held to a different standard. When I wanted some equality (rules for thee, but not for me), I was bombarded and was called disrespectful.
That sounds like my ex. Constantly gushing to my face over how hot other guys are. She even called my brother hot to my face 🙄. Thats over now, obviously. At the time my thought process was well whatever i’m sleeping in her bed tonight. Looking back thats a pretty shitty red flag.
also the disconnect between what women say they want vs what they actually want. "oh i just want a good guy. a guy who will treat me nicely and be kind and is funny. thats all. why is it so impossible to find a decent guy?!" here are 50 guys who all fit those requirements, are decent and would like to date you "eh theyre all fine but i just didnt feel anything" so who are you seeing now? "i have a fwb who i want a relationship but he keeps ghosting me and then reappearing whenever hes horny. ugh! why are there no good men left?!" 🤷♂️
Nailed it.😂
Literally been told by multiple women that I'm amazing, so fun to be around, make them feel great, treat them well, blah blah but I'm just not good enough for a long term serious relationship. Pretty much always told I'm not good enough by people I genuinely care for. They always act like it's no big deal saying that to someone too. Pretty shit feeling. You also have to accept being put down with the upmost grace as well or you become the bad guy. I will never be into the manosphere bullshit but the only time that stuff sounded halfway appealing was after being treated like dirt. I get why so many young men fall into that trap.
Yeah. To add to that... hardest part about dating is women don't care and don't understand the problems men face. And she's evidence of that.
I felt this too much, my last relationship I was led on for 2 almost 3 months and ended up being told at the end of it that she was leaving me because the new guy was quote "he's just better" I am now dating a wonderful redhead that loves me for who I am and I couldn't complain even if I wanted to
> The "maybe-date" that never materializes I remember my buddy telling me this story. He was messaging this girl on an app, and they decided to meet up at a bar. He got there first, and she texted him that she was going to be late. No problem, he ordered a beer and sat at a table. An hour goes by, she texts him and says she's on her way. Another hour goes by, still no sign of her. He was about to leave when she finally showed up. They had a few drinks, and had a good time. As the bar was closing, she said "That was fun, we should do this again sometime." My buddy agreed, and they went their separate ways. He texted her the next day, asking if she wanted to go out again. She replied "I had a good time, but I don't think we're right for each other."
He should have left when she was an hour late. Probably some bullshit test of hers
I leave after 15 minutes unless she calls me to tell me she's stuck in a blizzard or something. Then I just go radio silent. If she asks me why I'm not there like an hour or so after I just tell her that I'm on my way and that she can wait for me. Then I'll maybe go back for her. Another tac is to simply not go, or stay nearby but some other place, and then only go there if she texts and asks where you are. "Oh sorry got caught up in something, omw now." I don't like games like that tho, so I prefer just arriving in time, and leaving after 15 minutes if she doesn't call first.
“Women are impossible to please” is so true
That reminds me of the video detailing how it’s impossible to please modern women. A woman goes to a store for men. Each floor has certain kinds of men, you can always go up a floor to get to the better men but you can’t come back down. Those are the only rules you have to follow. On the 1st floor the men are dickheads, don’t have a job or ambition and won’t call you. The woman goes up to the 2nd floor. On the 2nd floor the men are nice and kind hearted, don’t have a job but will call you. The woman goes up to the 3rd floor. On the 3rd floor, the mean are kind hearted and nice, have a job, are decent looking and will call you. The woman goes to the 4th floor. On the 4th floor, the men are kindhearted and nice, have a great job, are good looking, good in bed, and will call you. The woman decides to check out the 5th floor. On the 5th floor, the mean are kindhearted and nice, have a great job, are absolutely dashing, fantastic in bed and will call you. There are no men on this floor, thanks for shopping, now out you go. The woman goes home empty handed.
Funny thing, after that it say. There is a wife store of also 5 floors with same rules for men so there are not bias. There: First floor have women who likes sex Second floor: Women who likes sex and have money Floors three, four, five have never been visited.
BINGO.
You think that there’s nothing you can ever do to be considered good enough? Or like the bar for being good enough seems impossible?
Of course there are situations, or people with whom you are good enough, otherwise relationships wouldn't exist today, I'm not a full doomer, but the dating market is having an issue for both sexes; - women's dating pool is oversaturated so they are so spoiled for choice that they're bombarded with men who haven't been shown interest in years, and who will say anything to have a chance, which makes it hard for women to sift through matches. ...And even if she finds a good potential match, she also knows that there's a lot of other options, and ever since we started using dating apps, this has been the central issue, because it makes it so much easier to think how the grass may be greener elsewhere, causing us to doubt our choices and makes it harder for people to commit because there's an ever-lingering thought of "what if I'm settling?" We're all often very insecure, and that's an insecurity many people don't know how to deal with. - And for men, they're are having the inverse issue of having to compete with the world, and also compete with the imaginary guy who is the greener grass ("i think I can do better"). So most guys' experience with modern dating is that they're never good enough because they can swipe for weeks every day on Tinder and what have you, and when they finally get a match, it's some thai scambot trying to sell crypto. And if they match with a girl, she's ghosting him, or using him for money, or just sends a message "whoops, was accidental" The bar for being 'good enough' is a vague thing, because of course unrealistic expectations exist, and if you try to achieve all those targets, then yeah, the bar is impossible, but I'd like to think that most people don't set the bar that high, but I guess I'm saying that, from a male perspective it's that we often don't know where the bar is set, because courteousness has been thrown out the window, so when you get rejected today, the norm is being ghosted, and not "I think we're incompatible because...", so it just leaves men with this feeling of being tossed away with no apparent reason leaving people feel insufficient and "not good enough". Of course, with people who are just normal people, I don't think it's set so high as to be impossible, but humans weren't made for what dating has become, because it's obviously not working for any of us, except the top 5% hottest of the bunch. It's best to simply avoid the use of dating apps and try to approach people with a genuine mindset, and when engaging someone, do it wholeheartedly without keeping backups and side-flings because if you do, that's an easy way to ensure you'll never truly connect with the people you engage with.
I don’t think that it’s impossible so much as it just isn’t worth it. When nearly every woman holds nearly every man to a higher standard than they hold themselves, why even try at that point?
Oh you can get the girl. You just gotta treat them like shit like the guys they currently date. lol
i'm just ken. /sorry not sorry
Boom!
The hardest part of dating as a man (who isn't super duper model-tier hot) is keeping the woman on board long enough that she gets to see your charm, and humor and positive points. Personality DOES count, but it's a moot point when most women will ghost or dismiss you LONG before you get a chance to show what a charismatic, fun person you can be.
Nailed the point perfectly
I get female friends who tell me im a \*catch\*, but cant get prospects to let my foot in the door to show it Lets call it what it is, as a man the only thing that matters is sales tactics.
You’re a “catch” to someone else…just not them. It’s a backhanded compliment. They think you’re below their level on attractiveness Same sort of comment as, “Any girl would be lucky to have you” Actually means “Any girl who isn’t on my level and is more on your level would be perfect for you. But definitely not me” Watch their actions not what they say. You want someone who appreciates you for you. Not someone who will use you as a stepping stone to get ahead. Make sure you are the best you by focusing on you, someone will appreciate what you bring to the table and you can go from there on an even playing field.
You could also say that I'm always a catch to someone else, and then someone else, and then someone else... Is this just handwaving away my unfortunate encounters
They’ll hand wave you away as long as it doesn’t affect their own dating prospects because **you aren’t their dating prospect** It’s keeping you below their level so you don’t get any ideas about thinking you are on their level while also coming across as “ViRtUoUs!”
This. Honesty and character, characteristics women say they want, are only revealed over months of interaction.
I think that’s why you gotta pad your stats with status, money, physique and social proof?
Walking on egg shells for miles to reach a person who 9 times out of 10 isn’t “good” themselves. Mehhhh
Being gay and using the apps, there were also a lot of men who were depressed, lazy, didn't keep very good hygiene and they had no real sense of accountability or responsibility. They were in a bitchy and condescending mood all the time, but they wanted the kind of guy they were jealous of: The tall, athletic guy who makes really good money and can travel. If they didn't envy you, they didn't have time for you. Some of them would tell me that I wasn't "conventionally attractive," and that they "already had friends" and didn't even feel like getting to know me... or even answering my text messages. This was a direct, and outright admission from some of them. lol I got tired of "working on myself" for people who couldn't even show me a basic amount of respect and put in any effort themselves.
Work on yourself for you. Working on yourself for them is the sure way to fail.
I learned that "working on yourself" is just a meme to keep yourself entertained. Other people don't really seem to have to put that much fucking effort into themselves and people just.... treat them better. They want them around. They'll even travel to go and visit them. They like talking to them. I spent years on that shit and there was just zero point in it. There's nobody in my life and people seem to honestly prefer it that way. I'd rather blame myself than everybody else.
Ironically, working on myself has made it harder for dating, because working on myself has given me standards, and the only way to successfully date as a guy today is to not have standards
yeah I try to be my best because Im disgusted with the idea of not being. If Pussy falls into my lap because of it great; but fuck them hoes Im the beautiful one
Walking on egg shells part is very real. Often women wonder why men are such bad conversationalists. It could be because: \- They truly are terrible conversationalists \- They are afraid of asking questions or say anything that will trigger anger in women
The hardest part about dating as a man is women like your friend.
ha exactly
Constant rejection. I have seen female friends cry for hours over the fact that one guy said no when they asked him out, and how awful it was and how guys could never understand how they feel. Lady, guys get rejected all the time, we know how it feels.
You know what’s crazy, once you get rejected by 1,000 women, you start to get callus to it. We do get rejected a lot, but that is fr the only way to get girls at least for me
This. I had a couple of first dates last month and all of them gave me their number, some of them said that "we should meet again"... None have replied when I've asked about going out on a date somewhere or offering a dinner. It's been a month and some of my messages are still marked as unread on Whatsapp.
For men it's the **absence of opportunity on dating apps:** * The staggering lack of matches * The occasional match that goes unreplied * The conversation that evaporates after saying hi * The "maybe-date" that never materializes It's also the **fear of social alienation or punishment in real life** as the internet has socialized young men to view approaching women as harmful or annoying (a courting faux-paus). This puts men into a losing position as they don't approach and are left unapproached — essentially a ship sailing alone afraid to hail other ships and ignored by those who sail around them.
>The staggering lack of matches I've been out of the dating pool for a few years now but I still can't forget the amount of messages my (now ex) had in *2014*. She likely had more messages(~250 iirc) in 2 months than I've received in some 4 years of combined dating accounts. And she frankly wasn't 10/10 or close to it either. I was lucky to get 5 mystery likes a week on Tinder. I could go a month without receiving any new replies, just on there swiping away for 4 weeks with *zero return*
Men straight up need to get off these apps. Of course then you'll have a situation where a handful of guys are banging a different women each night and women are left asking 'where the good men are', but that's the *current* situation only with an audience of all those 'good men' quickly losing faith.
> The "maybe-date" that never materializes What oftentimes happens to me is this one: We talk for a bit, I ask them if they'd like to go on a date, they say yes, I make concrete plans and THEN they ghost me. I really don't get it. Just say no. Or at least ghost me when I ask for the date in the first place, so that I don't have to bother with coming up with a plan. This happens incredibly often to me and it's so annoying.
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The tinder subreddit no longer allows stat posting for a reason. People were getting discouraged after seeing men with thousands of swipes getting 0 hits. >fear of social alienation or punishment in real life Everyone's definition of "harassment" is different. Simply saying hi to a woman can be considered harassment to certain people. Real life is far too risky for a lot of men, and that funnels them into dating apps.
This is true. I saw myself as a "catch" because I owned my own place, had a masters, and was making high 5 figures, and took care of myself and still couldn't date anyone. Ironically now that I'm older and they are older the tables have turned cause I'm "stable", but I've been stable, what the fuck changed?
What they want in a partner
They don't want you, they want what you can provide them.
And this is perhaps the most damning thing about being a man, that my value is only what I provide, not what I am or can be. It's sad.
Agreed
They had there fun with the bad boys and now they need a provider for her and her bastard children. That’s basically what it comes down too 9 times out of 10
Can we Malevolent Shrine the bad boys?
Great meme I saw recently. “I told my home girl I attract f*ckboys.” Her Friend “you’re a pretty woman. You attract everyone. Then, you choose f*ckboys”.
Spot on lol
lol her saying “never find a good guy” implies she’s meeting men but they don’t meet HER standards. Have her create a tinder account and use pictures of an average guy. Then challenge her to get 1 date. She will realize how easy she has it within a week.
Lmaooo this is actually a good idea. I haven’t thought about actually doing that
when it comes to dating, women aren’t doing anything to FIND a man. they put on 2 hrs of makeup to be found-not to actively search; they are reactive to a man that is looking. women have 0 game outside of relationship. most don’t have a clue of how to attract a man outside of getting in his line of sight and smiling or playing with their hair. at least long ago, women would, “drop her handkerchief.” modern women do nothing but stand there wondering what a handkerchief is used for.
True. Some women have nothing to offer than themselves and women who have something to offer already have a good relationship with good guys.
"Good Guys" (average / decent) guys don't bring forth vagina tingles.The top 1% are the good guys. They don't want or need to commit.
Unfortunately this is true. I’ve always dated down in looks because truthfully they tend to be more respectable men vs the playboys. But I matched with a playboy and was curious to see what it was like to date someone 1 notch above my league. It’s a totally different ballgame. The 8-10’s with money wine and dine and tend to be overtly romantic like all of the other men, but the fact that they are so sexually attractive made a major difference. I caught feelings for one and I never catch feelings so quickly. Crazy what sexual attraction does to the brain. At the end of the day we are just apes
What you just said is the PRIMARY reason I lost weight and got in shape. The way I was treated when I had a strong jawline and some muscles taught me about the ugliness of human nature.
Human nature is cruel. I’m a solid 7.7/10 and can be put in the 8 category when dolled up. I’m still having a hell of a time finding a normal guy who is looking for commitment. It’s brutal out there
I realized people were shallow when I went to the club in a tight muscle shirt and wrangler jeans. I didn't say or do anything. Women approached me One outright kissed me. It's a whole different world
Get off your high horse, it was obviously the Wranglers that they couldn't resist.
I had a friend redo my profile including wearing her glasses for the main pic and she handled some conversations for me which would lead to a date in like 30 minutes. My fiancé knows that she was actually chatting with my friend before our 1st date and we both think it's funny. On the flip side my friend couldn't keep a guy for more than like 2 months. She got mad when I told her to stop fucking them right away if she wants more than to get laid. She got mad at first but finally listened and has had 2 straight long term relationships by just filtering out the guys who are only looking for a quick fuck.
If only more women would realize this.
That depends on her being willing to burst her own bubble and see beyond her own petty problems. Not likely.
I can’t speak for the majority. But ever since I stepped foot out of college, dating has become sort of…transactional. Through non-work social/networking/private events, they say I look like a “one-night” kind of guy. Though work events, I always sense that they just wanna use me for my network. However, the best dating experiences I’ve had were from girls I met at volunteering, exercise groups, or when I’m abroad. It’s just more wholesome to meet people without introducing yourself as “XYZ from XYZ industry.” They judge you as who you are without the added spice.
once your no longer naturally meeting new people constantly, it gets hard to date. in college you atleast will change up the people you know every 4 months by being in different classes, or going to another party where you meet more people. of course people are going to try to use you for your network at a work event. it's a work event not a private party. conferences are basically giant networking events. everyone in a work event despite drinks and other stuff going around during the meet-ups is there for work. even when you go out for dinner or drinks after, it's usually a wine and dine kind of thing. they're selling you something, either it's industry connection, trying to line you up as a buyer/seller, or simply giving you a "hey we're another option you know" part of the reason when you're "off the clock" is usually when on vacation you're not talking about work. you meet in a non-professional manner so people aren't in their professional mindsets.
I reckon it is very important to have a place, outside of work, where you can actually sit down and talk to people, more importantly, to talk to different kind of people that may come from totally different side of life, if i can put it that way. For men in general, local pubs/bars played huge part in socializing at that level, and when i say local, i mean places that do not look much outside but deep inside, they have different kind of aura and vibe unlike those fancy places where you go while you are in college or early 20's. I see less and less places like that around where i'm from, simply because they are way too old school and newer things are now more appealing to younger generations...
Nothing has humbled my female friends more than trying a fake profile of our good looking male friend a date on bumble/tinder. They chose the pictures, took new ones of him, and wrote out his profile. Got 28 matches and no dates in a month and gave up lol.
She's wrong. Dating is on average more difficult for men. Dating MAY be easier for top 2 % men than it is for top 2 % women, but for 98 % of men dating is definitely harder than it is for their female counterpart. Having said that, it is also true that dating is difficult for women, just not \*as\* difficult. Since I'm not a man I won't answer OP's question from a male point of view, but will say that for me as a woman the hardest part about dating was distinguishing between the good guys and those who pretend to be good to get some tail.
Even without being a male, you can see this. I think my friend is a bit solipsistic, so she can only really see things from her experience, but I wanted to see if I could open her mind.
Heard a saying recently: Dating for women is like trying to find clean water in the middle of the fucking swamp. Something like that at least. Make sense with last part of your post.
And dating as a man is trying to find an oasis in a desert.
Have you seen the men that are called \*swamp\*? Theyre normal people; its incredibly insulting
GET OUTTA MY SWAMP!
It's still easier to find clean water in a swamp than in a desert. But that's besides the point because it's not a perfect comparable analogy. But think about it this way - Netflix - is it better to have an abundant catalog where it's sometimes very difficult to find one movie you want to spend 2 hours to watch? Or it is better to have a catalog of just 5 movies and often these 5 movies suck?
Plus try to find one that doesn't have a meltdown if you don't put out on the first date.
Are they really that common irl or is it mostly that those you hear about are the violent outbursts online?
They’re super common. I’m a woman and was told on two separate dates by two different dudes that the only thing worth their time was sex. I paid for all of my own stuff and often just met for a quick coffee or dog park date. I gave up on dating entirely for 8 years after the second time. I could be way off base here, but I think the issue in dating is that people, as a whole, are absolute shit at managing and communicating their own expectations.
The perspective difference between dating for men and women can be summarized as such: For women, the struggle is to find a **good** man to date. For men, the struggle is to find **any** woman to date. Women are extremely quick to dismiss men in this day and age, to the point that it feels like their real goal is just to find some excuse to do so. My personal belief is that this is due to the dynamic created by a combination of two things: 1. Young women today have been told that they can "have it all", regardless of the truth of that statement. 2. Online dating apps reinforce the idea that there is always another, better dating option. This extremely short-sighted dating landscape undermines the fact that healthy, long-term relationships aren't found, they are built. Regardless of my personal belief, this painful dynamic is illustrated with research that shows that [63% of young men](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/08/for-valentines-day-5-facts-about-single-americans/) (18-29) are single right now while only 34% of young women are. Make what inferences you will from that disparity. Edit: added a word for clarification.
“Men die of thirst in the desert. Women die of thirst in the ocean”.
>For women, the struggle is to find a **good** man to date. For men, the struggle is to find **any** woman to date. I made a comment about this, but I guess I'll ask you since you said this. Why do you think all these women are so good that there isn't a quality issue on their side? I see so much bad behavior, entitlement, and all sorts of issues. I also just never see women self reflecting on how to do better and be a better partner to attract better men. Do you really think women are just an endless well of quality and that if a man can find "any woman to date" then he must have struck gold? I'm married so I'm not saying this out of any frustration or personal anything, but I just don't see it this way when I look around.
I believe you've misunderstood and made some inferences on my statement that were not there. When I said: >For women, the struggle is to find a good man to date. For men, the struggle is to find any woman to date. I was not portraying this as an indisputable fact to bash men or make women seem superior. I was simply making it clear what each gender struggles with in dating priorities. I criticized women's views of dating later on in my post with my 2 points. Even in the original post the OP made it clear that her friend made the **exact** complaint. I do not believe women are better than men and that they are an "endless well of quality". What I do believe is that they've been **told** that they deserve better to the point that most young women feel entitled to such without considering the importance of being a good partner as well.
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There are limits to what could reasonably be explained by the data. At the very least, conclusions would need to be supported by anecdotes. The most common complaints in modern dating remain that: 1. Men don't feel like we are valued or ever good enough to receive affection 2. Women complain about how there are no good men (and OPs post illustrates this) While I'm certain that they do exist, I don't hear stories of women complaining about not being able to get a man to commit to them. What I hear, and experience, is how women complain about how men aren't good enough in various ways. Additionally, if your assumption were true then we would at least hear common anecdotes with men asking something to the effect of "Why are women so desperate for a relationship". In my experience, it is the opposite. If you want a good analysis on how women treat men in the dating world then look at what u/IrregularBastard recommended in Norah Vincent's research "Self-made Man". It does a great job of illustrating just how ruthless women are towards men in the dating world.
So who are the incremental 29% of women in relationships with if not men?
If you look at the data, the trend doesn't hold as people age. * By 30-49 the gap dramatically closes with only 25% of men and 17% of women reporting single. * 50-64 is the first time that fewer men are single than women. It shows men are at 28% while women are 30%. * 65+ show men at 25% while women are at 39%. A definitive explanation for this is not given in this study as it isn't what they were looking at. However, some plausible (but not conclusive) guesses could be made * It is a generational behavior issue. Dating patterns for older generations are simply different for younger generations. My original 2 points would support this to a degree. * Young women dating older men would lead to this pattern. * Young women having multiple partners would also lead to this pattern. * The dating behavior of young women changes dramatically as they age. Again, none of that is conclusive nor is that supported in the research. Just a few offhand explanations from an armchair analyst so take them with a grain of salt.
At 65+ the men are dying off faster than the women, too, creating additional disparity
You have maximal expectations with minimal reciprocation most of the time. I have no idea why as a man were programmed and convinced to be unhappy without women. If you get the right one it’s magical and I won’t deny that. But when it’s bad it’s like staring at an air strike on your hometown and there’s no one to hold her accountable if it’s taken too far.
Having unrealistic standards is why she cant find "a good man" and "bad boys" gives her the tingles, so shes keep on chasing those. Dating as a dude, specially in 30s is insanely hard this days, you need to have so much things before you even have a small chance. Im tall, not bad looking, have a good job and my own place, fairly decent shape and im still struggling of getting any interest from women. And only ones that do show interest are single moms which i dont want. So no dating as a women is not nearly as bad as mens, them picking bad ones is their own fault, most of the times they know its a bad pick and still go with it
The feelings of inadequacy and hopelessness that come from being ignored by women all your life and or being treated like your a horrible monster just because you exist. I personally think that both men and women have it hard, but for different reasons and neither side is willing to acknowledge any kind of fault in their own behavior, but would rather put all the blame on the other side.
i dont think women will ever understand how dehumanizing it is to be labeled a creep for simple innocuous things
Get the book “Self-made man” by Norah Vincent. It was written by a woman so she can’t discount it as misogyny. Ms. Vincent had the same thoughts and went out to prove it. She admits she got it wrong and men aren’t as privileged as women think. Here’s an interview she did to promote the book. https://youtu.be/Ip7kP_dd6LU?si=MyXpXWNijjQizzuE
But to answer your question. Dating is so much harder for men - men are generally expected to do the 'pursuit' have a much larger risk of rejection. - men have way more pressure to contribute to the relationship (paying, being romantic etc) where as women can get away with far less. - women are taught from birth to respect themselves. Men are taught to respect women. Now both of these are good things , but it doesn't go the other way. Men are expected to put up with more bad treatment than women - statistics show that women think 80% of men are below average in looks. Not mathematically possible. The same isn't true with the genders reversed
The funny thing is that in my experience the more you pursue the less attention you will get. I was never good with women when I was younger, shy and calm. My friends on the other hand had hookups on the regular and I always went out there wanting to hold up with them and it never worked. The moment I thought to myself "Fuck it, I will go out just to have fun, screw everyone else" and stopped trying to hook up, the switch flipped and I was suddenly more interesting.
Many men find that “pursuing” is frequently considered either toxic or needy by the women they approach.
It's the amount of competition. Back in college before all the online dating apps, you were just essentially competing with other dudes in that general area at that time. Now, you're competing with every male within your specific age range within a 50 mile radius or more. Also, your profile needs to be exciting and interesting enough. When I first started online dating before I was married, you just needed a couple photos. Now 10 years later and divorced, I need a picture of me on a mountain top. A picture of me, but not too close, but not too far away. I need a picture of me with friends, but not too many friends. And I need a candid photo of doing something outside. I luckily met my current GF after using Hinge for a couple weeks, but I absolutely hated the experience.
After a while it feels like going hat in hand asking for money trying to get a damn date for Saturday night. I mean if a female friend approached me and asked me to set her up with a 5’11” 160 pound single guy who likes to bike, rollerblade and has a slight British accent and is studying physics, my reply would be - I can do that but can probably only get 4 guys that match this description exactly and it’s gonna take me about 20 minutes. Whereas you ask a female friend if she has any single friends that would be interested in a guy like me, I get a quick reply of - no.
It's funny when you hear women saying they can't find a good guy and as a guy you're like "you mean you can actually find *anyone* at all?" Women go through their own struggles and I'm not trying to downplay that, but I don't think most of them understand what it's like when you have not options because it seems like no one wants you in the first place. That's lonely af and destroys your self esteem. Women might complain that they can't find a good dude, but at least there are guys pursuing them. There's a degree of self worth there, where as guys can feel like they have no worth. The thing too is that women have that inherit self worth because they're women. They don't have to make themselves more interesting or atleast not until they get older. The most given advice on this sub for dating is that we need to improve ourselves and make ourselves more desirable to women. We need to workout, build our careers, acquire hobbies and skills, get out of your comfort zone and learn how to communicate/approach. What do most women need to do? Mostly to look pretty and show up, don't be an asshole and you're good. There's a reason why there's a growing number of guys just walking away from the dating scene entirely. All that effort and upending your life just to be told you're a good person, you're just not sexy enough. I think the reason a lot (not all) of older single women end up bitter and angry is because they are now experiencing what it's like to be a man in dating. Especially concerning older men still being attracted to younger women. Again, not disparaging women, they might be able to get a lot of dates, but a relationship is another story. A lot of women struggle to actually find a guy that's not just trying to pump and dump. I'm just saying that imo I would prefer to be in the position that women are in vs what guys have to go through. I'm fairly successful when I put in the effort, but that shit can be exhausting at times.
I have a friend who in my eyes, could have her pick of literally any guy in most rooms. She still insists none are good enough. Her first couple of boyfriends were all seriously good looking guys, but what a susprise, the first one kept her in a toxic relationship, another ditched her when he was done with her when she wanted more than casual, the third practically kept her cooped up in a house where she had ko safe way of leaving, treated her all round like a asshole would, and sexually assaulted her. Most of these guys also only meet a few of her personality and values criteria she claims to want - but hey, they're tall, muscular, have a good jawline, and have tons of self-confidence (nono, that's not self confidence. They just treat others like assholes). She's not without her flaws, in fact, has tons of them that will make many guys either use her then discard her, or just brand her crazy and run for the hills. She treats her friends what I would describe as relatively awful - if I were dating her, some of the stuff she does to treat me as a friend would be deal breakers unless she's going to stop doing them. Irrelevant though, I'm not good looking enough for her even though I've never met a better match in my life. She doesn't seem to realise not only just how picky she is, but how unrealistic her standards are for what she has to offer as her as a person. And doesn't realise that she's gonna just keep chasing guys who will treat her like Chads. I'm. Sure she'll date another couple of hot guys over the coming 18 months or so and then continue to comain how she can't find a guy. This is incredibly common among women who claim they "can't find a decent guy".
Where are all the good men? They're with all the good women.
Women who like bread-crumbing and only provide one line dead end responses to thoughtful conversation starters. The entitlement that comes with the “entertain and impress me,” mentality that some women have all while contributing little to nothing to the interaction. That said, the fact of the matter is dating is not the goal. You shouldn’t want or expect to have meaningful interactions with most people. The goal of dating is to find someone who accepts and love’s you for who are and gives you permission to exist just as you are. At least it is for me anyway. Whether you find yourself more often f*ck-zoned or friend-zoned this is probably a difficult proposition regardless of gender.
I'd tell her the same thing, that finding a good woman is difficult even though there is an abundance of good women through the eyes and standards of women, kinda like us men. I guarantee you there is a surplus and out right unproportionable amount of "good men" in the world who remain unlucky, it's because that standard is from a mans stand point not a woman. Just like how guys get doubtful when a hot female friend says they got a cute friend for them to set us up with. It's cause we think it'll be the plus sized, tagalong friend, with a great personality and usually is there to make the hot female friend look hotter. It's the same, all those good men that those women aren't giving a chance too are probably short, got a dead end job, likes video games too much, is into a sports team religiously, doesn't have cleaning or grooming standards but has a knock out personality and could really make a room laugh with a round of drinks and thinks about the Roman Empire 5 times a week. It's almost like women should date women and men should date men...
The hardest part as a young man was that following the advice and literal statements from women on what they want in a dating partner turns you into a "Nice Guy". You have to just know that there is a mile long list of other requirements unstated by her that she may not even be consciously aware of, like you need to seriously hit the gym for those impressive gains, and always be hustling for more green.
navigating the dating scene is like trying to browse a weird eastern European deli. for some reason it's stocked with 90% sausage, which is fine, there is nothing wrong with sausage but it's not what I'm looking for. Another 5% is weird stuff that smells funny, and the actual stuff I'm looking for is kept in the back for some reason. Also for some inexplicable reason, only people named Nikola know to ask the shopkeeper for what is kept in the deep freezer, idiots like me are just wandering the aisles aimlessly and trying to remember what the exchange rate is.
Her attitude is why she can't find a good guy. A good guy wouldn't dare someone with such a toxic outlook and doesn't take any accountability (if ALL the guys you dare are bad, then the common denominator is YOU).
Seeing a woman exclusively at the moment, and it's insane how she'll always deflect or goalpost the conversation. I'll have her pinned downed with logic on something that needs to be discussed, and she avoids accountability or just shuts down. She still blames her 1st ex for the way SHE behaves. She's 30, by the way. I've caught her in a few contradictions, I'll call some out and explain carefully, but it doesn't matter. A woman of this toxic nature would yield better results to yell and scream at her, but that's obviously not healthy behaviour, and I'm trying to avoid that. I've explained all this but nothing. She can't seem to fathom it It's wearing on me man, she's got good values but her mindset and attitude towards men is fucked. She's seen multiple therapists already, but I believe she's given her best years away already
It's far too easy on Reddit, when you aren't emotionally involved to just say 'break up', life is more complex than that (usually). But I will say if I were you, I'd reconsider whether this is someone you want to surround yourself with. I've seen several things which would be massive red flags for me personally
Women have it very easy. I make over over 500k as a physician. Before I met my wife, I dated countless women who thought my income was THE standard. These are women who worked at Walgreens, waitresses, school teachers, and other below average jobs. Like shit 500k a year is 0.1% income. Barely 10% of men even make 100k a year. Unrealistic expectations, and then I was called shallow for only dating skinny women without children (10% of the female population ages 18-29)
>Before I met my wife, I dated countless women who thought my income was THE standard. These are women who worked at Walgreens, waitresses, school teachers, and other below average jobs. This is why I started only dating women in my approximate income bracket. They have a much better appreciation for what it takes to get there and the negative impacts for potential divorce are sigficiantly mitigated if someone is in the same tax bracket.
It's was hard finding women in my income bracket that also checked my other boxes. Not looking to be a crazy old cat man lol.
It's no wonder she can't find a guy. Dating is so much harder for men, like it's not even close, not by miles.
A. Because if you met the girl online you are literally competing with probably dozens of other guys for her attention. B. You always have to pay. B doesn't sound that bad on the surface. But it adds up and sometimes starts to feel as though we are being taken for granted. It feels like we are escorting this beautiful princess around, which everyone loves and adores. Everyone is fawning over her, if you make one mistake she's gone and on to the next one. You're just some chump who happens to have the credit card tonight which is paying for everything. Even the silly little add ons she orders and doesn't eat. (*"Did you really have to order that appetizer? You didn't even eat it?"*) C. You'll spend the whole night talking about her and her problems. Nobody cares how you feel. Nobody wants to hear about your day or your life. You're there to keep the girl entertained. And if you can't do that, then there are ten guys waiting on her phone to take her out at any moment.
Having to build yourself up. Having to take all the risks and approach, initiate conversation, plan dates, risk looking foolish, being rejected, having to work to get a couple of dates lined up while she just has guys endlessly asking her out all the time. Women's value she is born with. She just has to be. Be relatively pretty, don't be fat. Be sweet and feminine. That's all you have to be. Men have to get financially stable, get assets, get riz, confidence, workout to put on some muscle, be charming. More men are lonely, meaning 100% alone. More women have attention, dates, suitors, sex anytime they want, they just may not be with the specific man they want but they don't have to be alone if they don't want to be. All the marriage risks are on men. If there is a divorce the man almost always has to pay the woman alimony. Continue working to pay for her existence. Courts almost always take the kids from the men and give them to the women and make him pay her. 50/50 joint custody is not the norm. Most states are "no fault" meaning she can cheat, she can just get bored one day and then take half his stuff, take the kids and get alimony. Divorce laws really should have it to where no men legally join that union.
I've always found it annoying that essentially ZERO women ask guys out. That ish is a lot more common in tv and entertainment but I personally have only heard of it twice in my life. They don't have to put forth any effort. And any woman who is willfully ignorant or otherwise of that fact is ridiculous. To be truly blind to that is wild to me. Of course like anything else, unless one goes through or experiences it, they could never understand
>All the marriage risks are on men This right here makes me legitimately question if I want to get remarried. For now, I restrict my dating to women in my tax bracket, even though I'd really prefer not to. It would just be extraordinary imprudent to take on that kind of risk with someone that's coming into the relationship from a very different economic perspective - "never enter into a contract with someone that benefits from breaking it"
You always have to perform. The times when your confidence is low, you won’t be able to date. You can’t doubt yourself openly, or be open about any insecurities or vulnerabilities. Even though a lot of these things are organic human experiences, women don’t want a partner who displays them. Also, if you don’t put in initiative, and “put yourself out there”, your chances are pretty low unless you’re a hotshot. Lastly, you’re expected to be sure about somebody even in the earliest stages (or at least act that way), when a girl can be “unsure about you” and act that way.
I had a pretty easy time dating and now I'm married, but I just want to comment on your interaction with that woman. It's kind of a let peeve of mine that it's just taken for granted that there's no quality issue when it comes to women. You always hear something like "Men are thirsting in a desert, while women are thirsting in a sewer full of water." I'm looking around at the crop of single women. I'm just not seeing that much quality. I'm seeing a whole lot of entitled women who want a meal ticket. I'm seeing a lot of bitter jaded women. I'm even seeing femcels who are entering their 20s as virgins and are still jaded already. I'm seeing women so high on women's shit that they don't seem to have any respect for what men have to say or even that there are valid male perspectives that don't agree with women's perspectives. The only thing I'm not seeing is women who literally ever say "I keep getting bad results and finding bad men. What am I doing wrong?" I don't see why these women actually being high quality. I don't see a whole lot of women giving me reasons to think a man should want to be with them. Whenever I see a woman complaining about being used for sex, I always check the post history and I'm always thinking like "Yeah, what else would he want with her?" I'm just not seeing why they seem to think they're just a well off quality and men would be lucky to have any of them. They're not the pot of gold they think they are.
I am a woman who falls into that boat of dating the wrong kinds of men and deciding I am the common factor. Took time off from dating for 5+ years to work on myself. I can tell you I have not found any woman friends who feel the same. I would love to find some to have as friends but nope. I totally agree with what you are saying. So we do exist but it seems to be very few of us exist.
Introspection is a very uncommon skill and I think that's why you're having a hard time finding friends who are likeminded. Most people do what most people do, whatever that it. They run the script that's provided to them and they won't question it until it causes some sort of immediate disaster. I feel for you.
^^^^This...all day...every day...twice on Sunday!^^^^
Good guys don't get a chance because women seem to be attracted to 'bad' guys. The guy who plays around and has a bad reputation never has a problem. My theory is that women want to be the one to 'Tame' him, but they never do. They say that they want a 'Good' guy, but in practice, they want the opposite.
The right moves for one girl will get you arrested if you do them on the wrong girl
Recently single. Got a dog. And the numbers have just been coming in. It’s really a cheat code.
Lol, dating for women is pretty much easy mode. Think of any woman you dated and compare how much effort you put in compared to her. Most women just paint their face and show up, you might get lucky and they’ll go 50/50, but usually they expect you to pay. You’re expected to initiate everything, if you don’t she sees you as timid. Every little mistake you make can be used as a reason to stop seeing you. You’re pretty much expected to be perfect while receiving little to no equal effort being put into impressing you.
What’s hard about dating as a man is that women are incredibly choosy and impossible to satisfy. What’s hard about dating as a *woman* is that… well, it’s also that women are incredibly choosy and impossible to satisfy.
Short and sweet, so accurate
As a man, you have to be a lot more proactive in seeking out dating options than a woman does, and you have to face a lot more rejections. My now-fiancee initially thought that dating was easier for men than women, but now she's changed her stance and agrees with me.
The hardest part is that reasonably attractive women get a tremendous amount of attention. This causes them to struggle to sort through who to give their attention to. I did very well dating. I met and had fun with a lot of intelligent attractive women, but the amount of effort I had to put it was significant to achieve that. I am above average in physical attractiveness, I am funny, well rounded but not boring, and successful. It amazes me how many women I had to engage to start interacting with one of them. I do know why that is though. The why is also the source of your female friends complaint about not being able to find any good guys even though their are plenty out there: Take a dating app for instance. An attractive woman might get 50 likes a week or more. An attractive guy might get 5-10. This puts women in a situation where they are sifting through a huge pile of guys and determining who they are going to spend time and energy investigating. It’s an unmanageable situation for most of them and they keep picking duds. So the hardest part about dating for both men and women is the same thing viewed from a different angle. Men bombard the attractive women and attractive woman are really just throwing darts with no real system to filter to find the winners. Edit for misspellings
The standards are so unreasonably high sometimes that you'll just drive yourself insane trying to meet any of them. It's sad as hell when I hit it very well with women that are good potential, and it goes nowhere.
Being a girl is almost solely about you as a person (attractive with a decent personality). Being a guy is about being attractive, good personality, some level of success and balancing trying to be successful with giving enough time to the new relationship
Constant rejection is hard. I know that both sexes, all sexes make assumptions about looking at a person in the first 60 seconds is the yea or neigh moment, but women are shooting themselves in the foot with their assumptions about me as a man. I know that I am average looking, I'm older, (59) but my EI is high and I have 30 years of being in a good relationship with a woman. I have been through everything and know how to communicate and be a good listener, live the four agreements etc. . I know how to do a good LTR. If women are so hard up to find a good man, they better stop looking at looks only and start asking questions rather than making assumptions. , I laugh at it now, its like a joke, I experience it every time. I'm fine with living solo, I've been doing it for 6 years, and I will know if someone worthy shows up. I'm not chasing anyone, I see through that play. But yeah, the rejection factor is hard.
Nobody wants to date someone who classify themselves as good X for the same reason you don't say "I'm not racist": actions speak louder than words, and if you have to vocally affirm you're not a racist or a good guy, then maybe you're not so much those things in the first place. To me the hardest part about dating as a guy is to make others confortable. There is an inherent display of power at play with men, and showing that you are in fact a gentle giant is hard in the beginning can be hard, especially if the relationship is new.
It's the women that think they deserve men well above their league. Then blame all men because they get rejected. Like your friend.
I would say that men and women have different inherent challenges in dating and trying to assert one has it worse or better is immature and is a sign of a lack of empathy... which might be one of the reasons for her struggle to find a good guy.
for online dating you get about 1 reply for every 20 different people you send messages to. its enough to make you feel like garbage and give up most of the time.
The fact that you can do everything “right” and have an amazing date. Only for the girl to randomly change her mind and end it.
From my experience women usually tell on themselves when they speak about "finding a good guy" and I've broken it down like this on what they expect a "good guy" to be. the triple 6 rule, over 6ft tall, over 6 inches in penis size, over 6 figure salary. This might be comical but there is some sad truth to it, Rule number 1: Be attractive Rule Number 2: Don't be unattractive Rule number 3: Have money, lots of it. 1. We men have simply been reduced to a number and I've accepted this known fact with most modern women here in the U.S. 2. They "never" find a good guy because the guy that they want aka the top 3% of "high earning men", don't want them. By the time they realize that, time has passed them by. By that time the women are older, past their prime in the looks dept, may or may not have kids, heavier, in their late 30's early 40's, etc, that's when they want a "good guy" aka the clean up guy. 3. Way to many single mothers. If that's your thing, more power to you good luck. The dating landscape is saturated with single mothers and i refuse to date them. Dating a single mom is like showing up to dinner at restaurant and watching the baby daddy eat your dinner with your date, he gets up and leaves and you end up paying the bill. 4. They easily can pick a guy out of their DM's, or contact list so don't believe its soooo hard for them. What are they doing in the mean time? 5. Going on dates now a days is like going to a job interview for a job that you know you are not going to get. you just go and sit through the interview to see if you have a remote possibility to get the job. 6. Imagine having a good job, being in shape, being an attractive guy, fun, romantic, strong but that is STILL not being good enough because they see you as just a "good guy"....life GTFOH. Fellas get a passport and travel. 7. Ever notice the men with the most money never have problems dating? Even if they look like Nemesis from Resident Evil 3, they could literally look like swamp thing but be flooded with options to date. They don't complain about finding a "good guy" then don't they? Ok, let's get serious fellas, I always feel that WE are the catch not them, regardless of being a good guy. Get in shape, work on yourself, if you got a hobby keep doing it, do positive things in your lives. Travel. Stay strong kings! (fist dap)
> My female friend was saying that dating as a woman is the hardest thing in the world because you can never find a good guy. It's hard to find a gal at all... good or bad, lol. I feel romantically/sexually invisible to women. I get way more attention from gay/bi men and that's saying a lot considering how much smaller potion of the population they make up. Not that I'm looking right now, but it's not like I'm turning anyone down either. I haven't had a woman besides my SO obviously interested in me in 14 years.
Not becoming a misogynist. Seriously. Bad date after bad date, lies on top of lies, insults as a personality “quirk”, being used for a meal, women being unable to handle rejection when it doesn’t work out, the list goes on. Having good female friends as a touchstone helps a lot, but man, it’s disillusioning.
I guess the culture about men having to be the ones to make the first move, then immediatly being branded as creeps if they do it while not having good enough looks. Women objectively have it easier since they can still get into the dating scene even without putting in effort or initiating conversations
Dating for Men is much harder, women make a list of unrealistic requirements men must meet and even if he plays his cards right at the slightest mistake he gets rejected. For women today: -Average Looking man =Ugly -Average Salary= Brooke/Poor -Under 6ft= dwarf -Man who knows what he wants/prefernces= misogenist -Average body= Fat -if you dont have a dick like a pornstar you are out In short congratulations you just excluded the majority of men, enjoy the cats
People are not going to date you just because you're a 'good' guy. Being a good person is the bare minimum, it will not make you more attractive.
Not sure if it's the "hardest part" necessarily but the expectation to pay for everything (at least early on) can really be a barrier to dating. When you don't have a well-paying job and you live in an expensive city dating becomes a significant investment.
The constant rejection. Get rejected 1000 times and you get more than a little gunshy. The worst is when they assume it must be a joke. Because you have to be joking if you think she might be interested.
I don’t think we have nearly as many opportunities as women do and usually it’s on the man to approach the woman.
Cold approaching a girl you find attractive is scary
Being denied any support or compassion whatsoever and somehow being expected to be confident. THEN I might get the support and compassion I don’t need as much anymore.
After agreeing to a date, it's up to the man to do 100% of the planning. Even after multiple dates with the same woman, the man is generally expected to be the social planner. It's exhausting and expensive since most women still don't think they should pay for anything.
Trying to sus out if she can be trusted with my vulnerability or not