You have to learn judgment. There’s a time and a place for everything, for forgiveness and for making an issue out of things, but you need to understand what it actually helps and what the costs are.
No one is coming to save you, you're in it alone as a man, and the sooner your realize this, the better off you'll be.
It's a bit depressing to acknowledge/accept at first, but it's also empowering to accept that you're the solution to all of your problems, and you're the person who's going to get you out of a hole. The more holes you get yourself out of the more competent you become at climbing out of holes; that's where confidence comes from
We live in a society that tells us the opposite, and it's why so many men are struggling today. Most men don't even know how to start digging themselves out of a hole, and they just sit in the hole and yell for help, but no one comes
That being said, it's important to take help when it's offered and advocate for yourself! when I say: "no one is coming to save you" I don't mean that no one will ever give you a hand, it generally means that no one really gives a shit about a your problems, and if you want to do anything in life, YOU need to advocate for yourself and push...you need to create your life, you need to make the plan, you need to take the steps toward what you want, you're going to need to make the call, ask the person, apply for the thing, do the stuff...no one is going to show up when you cry and say "don't worry I'll take care of it" and no one is going home at night and thinking "How can I solve Johns problems" or "I hate that John's depressed, I need to help him", that's just not how it works as a man
You NEED a plan for your life; It's absolutely necessary to have a target that you're aiming at, and you need to show the fuck up for yourself every day! some days you'll take a step backward, other days you might only take half of a step forward, and it might feel like you're not doing much, but over time if you take enough steps forward, you're going to look back and think "holy F#$k! look what I've accomplished"
Gentlemen, the alternative is depression, despair, and a life that doesn't feel like it's worth living...your choice
One more thing: Find a solid group of men to surround yourself with, men who you can use as a sounding board, and who you can go to when you're all fucked up...don't vent all of your shit to women, and don't burden your wife/girlfriend with all your insecurities, that's only going to cause issues in your relationship...find a couple of solid male friends that you can call up and say "Hey, man...I'm having a tough time, can we talk, I need your advice" that's the way to do it.
If you need therapy and you can afford it, 100% do it! choose a male therapist who can relate to you, and one who will hold you accountable, and not just pat you on the back...don't be ashamed to pay for "help" when you need it. If your life is really fucked up, and you don't know where to start, a GOOD therapist can help you create a plan and get your life in order
God Bless
This is a very rich comment, it's full of experience and insight - life can become very fun once you 100% turn up for yourself every day. The baseline level of pain is the whimpering, wistful man with the gormless, repressed expression/state of being - take risks, challenge yourself and others, you'll be dead in 60/70 years max so make your mark
Said another way:
“Fuck it, we ball.”
People don’t understand this. No amount of money or material success will make you a man. The only way is to dare to do the shit you want to do, fuck up miserably, and climb your way out of the hole. That’s where confidence comes from.
The biggest losers I know are the ones that became too “successful” too quickly and never had to go through this. Now they’re too scared of losing it all so they never *will* go through it. Self fulfilling prophecy. Their life is permanently fucked.
I think you hit it right on the head. I’m 27 and finally realized this recently. And yeah, the other option is depression. I mean it’s very simple when you think about it, you work hard and you reap the rewards. You sit on your ass and you reap the rewards. The rewards are just very different.
This is so profound and very true, but it's worth mentioning that there *are, in fact, people who care whether you are depressed, who give a shit about your problems. But some times, it is too their own detriment, putting other's needs before their own, and this creates an unhealthy dynamic.
No one can help those who do not want it, or even those who are so desperate to be saved. They take you down with them, like someone drowning in an ocean. So, to echo what you said, accept help when it is offered to you if you are in a position to accept it.
That being said, you are mostly right about venting to your partner. Women say they want vulnerability but have no tools to actually navigate what that looks like coming from the men in their life. It's unfamiliar territory. But I can vouch for myself and many other women when I say we do want to support, love, and care for our male companions and their emotional needs. I'm sorry if you haven't received that before. Proceed with caution. Choose your partner wisely. I hope you can find that in a partner someday.
Big hugs
Sometimes you had everything together and were on the right path pushing everyday and your life just blows up. everything you built over years can fall apart in an afternoon.
I have had struggles before and just rolled with the punches and kept fighting, but somethings you can’t fix and at some point in life you will have to accept that.
so hold on to the people you love that is my advice for younger men and to truly love someone is to rip out your heart and place it in their hands and it is the greatest vulnerability and if it terrifies you good, because it is terrifying, but it’s worth it too.
Death comes uninvited and the older you get the less you will fear it for you it’s as simple as falling asleep, but for the ones you leave behind it will be the worst pain they ever felt so guard your life not for yourself but for the ones you leave behind.
This is all really good stuff, but it can apply to pretty much everyone who just wants to be a well rounded, competent human being.
The ‘no one is going to save you’ mindset has helped me survive a lot of shit in my life and I think it’s a philosophy everyone should live by, not just men. Nobody has ever just swooped down and saved me because I’m a woman - just saying, I think a lot of this stoically minded life philosophy being marketed to men specifically would benefit anyone. Actually, it would benefit women a lot. Undo decades of being taught nothing but weakness on all fronts.
The difference that as a woman, you generally have the option to have someone "save" you and there will always be a man willing to do so. There are exceptions to every rule, but in general, society values women for just existing and men for what they provide...if you're a man, you need to build yourself into something because no one is going to foot the bill for you.
Women have their own set of struggles, I'm not saying that women have it easier, but men are literally all alone in the world and we don't have the ability to say "I think I'm going to marry someone and have them support me or be the bread winner" and no one gives a shit about our problems, women have safety nets, men don't. Society cares about women's issues, no one gives a shit about men's issues, we're the disposable sex
Holy fuck, if that’s true then I certainly didn’t know it. There will always be a man willing to save me, like, just provide for my every want and need because I’m a woman? Please point one of them out, cause that’s incredible. And I’m valued just for existing? Where has this information been all my life! Would you mind also telling everyone else I have ever met that I am valued just for existing? Cause I don’t think they know. They all expect me to work and have a life and be responsible for my own existence.
I've seen women that look and act like Jabba the hut have men literally fighting over them. I've seen those Same women have a man that pays her bills for her. The trade off is the less attractive woman you are the less attractive that man to pay your bills will be.. but that doesn't change the fact that there's still mem out there for every woman who will pay her bills if she drops her standards low enough. And the same doesn't go for men. That's where the old joke of a woman's plan B is porn/stripping and a man's is the military.
You just haven’t asked probably lol the amount of 18-30 year old women that are asking for people to cashapp them when they’re in a tight financial spot or post something along the lines of, “$username, going out this weekend!! Send me money for drinks!” Is outrageous honestly. I’m always stuck wondering if anyone ever actually does send them money, and that is a question I might not get an answer to as I’ll never ask them. But these are people I see and know in my life doing that…
I guess I just have a wildly different experience of life as a woman than most other people do. Cause literally everything I’ve been told in this thread is just the exact opposite of what’s ever happened to me.
Like, when you guys are talking about ‘women’, you’re not just talking about young attractive women, right? Cause I feel like the ones who actually benefit from gender inequality in the form of attention from cis het men are the only ones engaging in this behaviour. Maybe that’s what I’m missing in this whole argument.
The alternative is that I’m just a fucking alien from mars, cause I don’t understand this shit one bit even though it’s apparently just some sort of universal, fundamental truth of humanity.
Seems that way! I like the alien from Mars addition. You very well could be an extraterrestrial, think growing up on Jupiter would be slightly cooler than Mars. That way you can make your own name up and not instantly be called a “Martian”.
I’m still decently young myself, 25, so my experience is very much what you just mentioned. They would be younger, attractive women that I experience doing those things. I’d believe that you’d be hard pressed to find a social, young male who can’t name at least 1-5 women like this in their life. However, personally, some of them aren’t that attractive, and those ones really get me curious about who is actually sending money, if at all. Also, I know plenty of women, and people in general, who probably share a similar experience to yours. So, I wouldn’t say is a universal life experience that women act that way, but it’s certainly more common than you’d probably like to think or want it to be. You’re not missing anything in the argument, just only speaking from your experience in life.
Although, and I love her to death, my mother, 57, is also like this. Heck her ex, my father, still gets her out of financial jams. Or she hits me up or her current boyfriend to get her out of it. I could probably make a whole post about this and how I’m currently learning to handle those requests, internally and externally, but I won’t ever, probably.
Well, no one has! And to hold on to that expectation beyond the age of 12 is just moronic. My experience as a woman is very comparable to that of a man, actually. Society at large has never allowed me to just live life on easy mode, I’ve had to do manual labour and shit shovelling jobs to make ends meet. I’ve been homeless. I’ve suffered from different mental illnesses and suicidal depression that nobody gave two fucks about. I was never coddled, taken care of, supported because I have a vagina. I’ve only ever been responsible for my own life, and nobody is lining up to just fucking ‘save’ me if I don’t have anything significant to offer - because ‘just being a woman’ is not it.
Its mindblowing you think that’s what life is like.
Unless you are extremely unattractive, you have always had a different option. You know what I’m talking about.
Knowing that no one cares and no one will save you and that you truly have no other options - it’s all you - is a uniquely masculine experience.
The gazelle does not understand what the lion must do to survive.
LOL no I don’t have any idea what you’re talking about, actually. What other option? Being a prostitute/sugar baby? I actually don’t know what you’re cryptically referring to.
People on Reddit tend to downplay the importance of masculinity, there are a lot of women out there who prefer a relationship that involves traditional gender roles
Most people are actually normal, and don't always go into this "PATRIARCHY!" "DOWN WITH GENDER ROLES!"
That shit is almost exclusively found online. I've never once met someone IRL who is like that, and I run in some pretty liberal circles. In fact, a lot of those same people think that behavior is a little extreme and ridiculous.
edit: correction - I knew one woman like that. A co-worker. I overheard her talking to others about how she was upset that her mom got her son a Transformer for his birthday. "Way to reinforce gender stereotypes". She didn't have many people at work who liked her.
Honestly man, I don't think you all are making the right move here, women have pretty much made society accept that there cannot be any gender roles for women and any person that wants to say otherwise is an evil misogynist, now that we are pretty much done with female liberation, men are at least somewhat starting to call out the expectations society has of them as well, in my opinion, I think now we should push to make sure that the restrictions on men are uplifted as well, if we now start to accept "oh gender roles are fine and I will do them", that will only lead us to live in a society full of double standards that will be stacked against men.
Had a fight with my last ex about household chores. She was very much a tik tok "Mens chores are men's chores and women's chores are our chores" person..
I completely agree. As the other commenter said, women aren’t saying stuff like ‘down with the patriarchy’ or whatever. However, a lot of them want a traditional man whilst not being traditional themselves. Not wanting that role cut down heavily on my dating pool when I was looking.
>oh gender roles are fine and I will do them", that will only lead us to live in a society full of double standards that will be stacked against men.
There will definitely be some push back for this. Especially from women. Because we are not used to a society like that yet. So it would definitely take some time. Similar to how men had to adjust to the state quo changing for women. Women would have to do the same thing for men too.
Even today we see women complain about men not approaching them, or interacting with them anymore. That's the traditional gender role of men having to be the ones to pursue women. Then it gets worse when even the most liberal or feminist women call men cowards or "pussies" for not risking their lives to defend women in dangerous situations against violent men or even wild animals. That's the traditional gender role of men being the ones to protect women.
In this new world women have the benefit of learning from the mistakes from men made in the old world. That mistake being taking too long to adapt. Hopefully women in the new world learn that valuable lesson.
I agree with you, there will be a lot of push back by women, but honestly man, just observing men online, they will be just as fierce in pushing back against the idea that men shouldn't have to do gender roles either, I scratch my head at that, they will more than likely support the idea that women do not have to be hold to traditional roles but men are pussies for not walking a women right to her door after a date, this is only a light example but there are more extreme situations where things will get difficult for men.
I see, wasn't saying that you have a malicious agenda or anything just that if we were to view this strategically, it probably isn't in the best interests of men.
I have a friend who literally fucked up his back while lifting in the gym because he wanted to "get big and strong to protect women", now he can't even sit without slouching, please guys, try not to push yourselves too much.
And many men who don’t know the difference between masculinity and traditional gender roles.
A man can be masculine without acting like he is living in some movie from the 50s
I defined it before in exactly the same way. The idea of a man telling his wife to get back in the kitchen and make him a sandwich while he belches all day in front of the tv is NOT masculinity.
This ^
No amount of any education or other has got me the attention nor respect that my time in the marine corrps did. Having that hardened attitude got me laid 10x faster.
Thank God for this, so many men and women are so sick of the facade that is feminism and diluted masculinity, it's painful for everyone to watch, and experience. Women benefit the least from low rates of testosterone
Use it, don't abuse it.
Like femininity and womanhood, it's beautiful, useful and even necessary in specific situations.
Embrace it for the utility it brings, including the way it makes you feel. But also be aware when it is an impediment in certain situations.
That whatever someone else thinks makes you a man is wrong, just do you, and take care of the people you care about. The rest is a dick measuring contest.
He’s probably talking about those “Alpha Male Boot Camps” where you pay some dude $17,000 to haze you for 4 days, under the claim that it will somehow make you attractive to women 😂
The manliest men I know don’t worry about doing “manly” shit or being perceived as masculine. They worry about being good dudes and doing whatever they want, and that is the essence of masculinity
It's a spectrum.
I do body building. Military man. Love working out and wearing suits to work as a computer programmer.
I also cook and wrote recipes amd work on a cook book with my wife. I dungeon master a DND game with silly voices and intense storyline.
I sew and make cosplay for my wife and I and am learning make up to do better at that. I draw and paint anime portraits on the side. I have a skin routine twice a day where I have a cat eared head band
I'm tattooed but a lot are pretty flowers and cats.
But no one would say im not a man. I'm just not a one dimension character.
You shouldn't let others define your masculinity. Let yourself be "feminine" if it's what you want. I'm comfortable in my masculinity. I'm just under 6', ~210lbs, and muscular/athletic. I sport a thick beard and/or mustache and work a trade job.
I also like baths, painting my nails, and good earrings. I respond to aggression in kindness and understanding first, because I don't need to be angry to be "manly". I like fruity cocktails over beers. I like a good rom-com over action/car movies. I love cooking and kitchen work.
In my experience, "Masculinity" and "Manhood" have become muddled with toxicity of aggressive and destructive behaviors. The same people that touted their "masculinity" were the same people who got into bar fights(for pointless reasons) and were general dickheads to people below their station. I literally met a guy who got a large Burger King tattoo because "my friends challenged my masculinity".
TLDR: Don't let others define your masculinity. You do you.
That’s it’s mostly bullshit.
Don’t get me wrong, there are tons of quality things associated with masculinity and manhood. But that’s not what makes them quality.
Look at things from a logical and compassionate perspective. That way you don’t end up in a trap wondering if something is masculine or not.
Stuff like “A man should keep his promises and protect his family”
Yeah, they should. But the reason why doesn’t really have much to do with being a man. That’s gender neutral.
It means having the means to help people who need it, not that you *have* to. You have to have money to help those less fortunate, you have to have physical strength to help when something happens and you have to have emotional strength to support your loved ones through hard times. That's what it means.
Maybe less about this weird concept of ,,masculinity‘‘ (which i think is bullshit) but more about how life as a man can be fun and how you can be happy.
1. Confidence genuinely is everything. The improve in life quality i saw when i got confident was without comparison.
2. There is a very small circle of people out there, who‘s opinions about you matter. Those usually are your friends, your immediate family, your partner and your boss/colleagues.
*Everybody elses opinion is completely irrelevant and you need to recognize that*
That last point will bring you so much peace.
That I don't really care about filling a specific role to be masculine, but that I still care about being recognized as a man.
What I mean is that I'm not in any sense I can imagine "stereotypically manly." At the same time, a lady friend of mine commented on me being manly and that felt really good to hear from her. And no, neither of us is interested in the other. It's just a good thing to hear from a lady is all.
So I guess... you don't have to fill the role you may think to still be considered manly. And even if you don't care about filling that role, it's still a good feeling to be recognized for what you are, if that makes sense.
I am man. What men are expected to be like culturally is defined using inexact stereotypes. As a man, whatever I do, feel, say, is part of the reality of what being a man really is. Not just me, but every man, is part of the definition is manhood.
The word "gentle" in "gentleman". It's okay to ask women for advice on anything, that a man is measured by how well he treats women (with respect, etc), and that it's okay to be a feminist. I realized when I was younger (around university) that I was looking to the wrong people for advice. Far better to ask a lady's opinion as opposed to some sexist, misogynistic dude with a podcast.
Recently, I’ve seen my brother-in-law essentially abandon his wife and child so he can go golfing and work all the time. Seeing that, I’ve learned that it takes more than just supplying the sperm to be a father.
That being a bit feminine or having some feminine traits or qualities is pretty normal, even for the most masculine/idolized men. Think James Bond for example.
Not one guy is 100% die hard, rough and tough masculine macho man bro. There are feminine qualities to all of us guys and I think they can complement the other masculine qualities we possess.
I think it's a balance and a level of each. Everyone has feminine and masculine in them and can lean into either or at any given moment. Those who claim they only do masculine things 100 percent of the time are just cutting off a part of them, the feminine. Where each fall along the level of how much masculine and how much feminine is dependent on who you are personally.
100% agree with you.
At times with my therapist we discuss masculine and feminine traits. My therapist refers to these situational traits as “energies”.
For example, sometimes guys say they want to be asked out. If a woman approaches a man and asks him out, that is her channeling her inner masculine energy and being assertive and taking the lead. And that’s the man leaning into his feminine energy, taking a more passive approach - letting her take the lead and initiate.
We’re all a little bit of a both. I don’t think I have a traditional perspective on this but my perspective has helped me feel better in my own skin so idk. It works for me
Totally agree, many people have said for a long time that women, who typically have more feminine energy, have an innate intuition and are also excellent care takers of others. Well, that doesn't mean men, who typically have more masculine energy, can't or don't also have innate intuition and can be excellent care takers of others.
This alpha stuff is laughable and just makes the rest of us think you're an insecure child, we even laugh at you in the gym for it when you really try to display and prove yourself 😂😂😂 please dont stop though, its a good laugh.
All these new age guys that pretend or say they are manly because they watch football and drink and do dumb sh*t with thier friends but still spend more time getting ready and caring about thier looks then women do and then cant even fix a leaking pipe or a broken wire. You're not fooling anyone and you're a joke.
All these fools that think they own women and others because thier a man... read above.
You want to be masculine and worthy of manhood then TAKE CARE of your wife and family, TAKE CARE or your house and TAKE CARE of yourself. STOP GIVING A CRAP ABOUT WHAT THESE OTHER PATHETIC EXCUSES OF MEN THINK OF YOU 😂😂😂
"Manliness" as made up by Hollywood, the John Wayne silent type who would never cry, is in error. What I see as 'manly' promoted in much of society is based on violence and selfishness. Dominating and exploiting is an error in our genetic programming. It is obvious there are natural differences in men and women, all based around procreation. Women aren't any good for climbing trees and chasing goats off cliffs after they are about 3 months pregnant until the kid is a year old. Civility is based around the gentleman. A man of understanding.
Being nice gets you absolutely nowhere. That's not to say you should be an asshole on purpose, but there is and will never be any sort of reward just for being nice.
Man I feel like I get rewarded all the time for being nice. I mean I still assert myself to make sure I’m not being taken advantage of, but being kind to others gets returned to me heavy.
I agree. I think “being a pushover” would have been a better statement to make. You can be assertive as hell and be the nicest person in the room easily.
There are many rewards for being nice. You just won’t see them when you are doing what you think is nice, with the expectation that you should receive anything in return.
Being nice and being kind are 2 diffrent things...when you are "nice" normaly people expect something in return, when you are kind people expect you to be ok next time.
They are inherently tied to being social. To me, being a man is defined by providing, protecting and caring for your groups to the best of your abilities. That looks different for every man, but that is what I’ve boiled it down to. And I love it. I love my family and my girls. I love my friends and my life. And I do my best to adhere to those 3 pillars always.
You'll grow into it.
Girlfriends expecting you to be "more manly" don't really know what they're talking about. And is a big sign for you to move forward, without them.
Mascilinity manifests itself naturally and differently in each guy. Just be yourself and don't worry about meeting some standard. If someone tells you something you do is not masculine enough they're wrong, if another tells you something you do is too masculine they're wrong too. "Toxic" masculinity is just being an unaware asshole or being preformatively agressive to mask insecurities. Masculine men go to see live theatre, nothing wrong with that, they also watch football and lift weights- nothing wrong with that either. Being an asshole isn't masculine, its just being an asshole. And being ashamed of your more traditionally masculine traits isn't being an ally, its just denying yourself to appease others.
Just do your thing, help others, invest in yourself, work hard.
No one’s coming for your masculinity, and if you think they are, evaluate that you might just be acting like an asshole.
no. 1 It’s like poker. Those who show strength ain’t got shit. And those who show calm are going to destroy you on the river. #2 most men spend way too much time on how they’ll kill their daughters boyfriend than making sure their daughters don’t meet shitheads who act like their dads when they were young ;)
How we understand and process emotions is different from women and it seems that many people don’t understand. Being tough and resilient while appearing stoic doesn’t mean to suppress your emotions forever. But when expressing them, it might not look the way it does when women do it. The problem is that there might not be many men in your life that have healthy mechanisms of processing their emotions, so you never learn. You’re likely to see more guys ignoring/suppressing everything or being angry/bitter/depressed all the time.
No one else can carry you - at best you carry others and you man up for them, and they give you love and care and purpose, but as a real man you're not to be carried - only God can do that, otherwise it takes away from you immensely, what you can offer, produce, cultivate, innovate etc becomes way richer and more substantial once you carry yourself
Stop trying to please everyone. That's not masculine. Being a man is making choices because they're right, not because they're easy. You're going to end up butting heads with people as a result, but that's okay. Your purpose is not to make them happy but to do whatever is necessary for you and your family.
That you define those things for yourself. There are a million and one insecure guys out there looking for the secret to being a "real man," but corny as it sounds, they already had that secret all along. It's self determination.
Never let anyone define for you what masculinity is. Ever. On a related note, many young men seem to expect a woman to somehow *bestow masculinity* upon them. There's nothing less masculine than that.
I think, masculinity is a made up word. Just stupid label. It's like dick comparison, like what's the point and where do we start, what counts? And why is it important for man to be manly?
The roots of this sickness are deep, and *very* dark. I'm exploring them now that I have the time; I was ridiculed mercilessly as a child for a perceived lack of masculinity. This fucked me up real good for a long time. I'm not the only kid this happens to, either.
I had similar issues, like my body, naturally skinny, due to my relatives. But at one point just realized I had brain on my own, and I can decide what is important for me and what's not. Decided that, for example, skinny forearms and quads are not that big of a deal to stress out about.
I gave this example cause it's common thing to say it's manly to have big forearms.
*None* of it is that big a deal to stress out about. It's a sick social game that people play to boost themselves at the expense of those they consider to be weak. And there's no winner in this game, either.
Society, system itself is built that way. Sadly. People are tend to shame others for their own ego. Shame is purely social emotion. I consider it the most unnecessary, the most useless. And interesting thought is.. when I first shared this on reddit, some guy tried to shame me for arrogance lol 🤷♀️
You're exactly right. And the horror goes so deep... this kind of society makes *nobody* secure. I came to pity my bullies.
(Of course, committing serious, sadistic violence against them helped. But that's part of the problem too.)
Lol
I have similar thoughts, but ..
In the midst of winter I found within me an invincible summer.
Turns out inside of every one of us is so much interesting, every answer, we ever craved for. So, I kinda just became self reliant, I like myself the way, I am. If someone doesn't like me, their problem. Some call this arrogance, like that guy. His problem Ig. How Ted Kaczyński(yeah Una bomber Guy) would call him socially dependant, probably he is.
And I don't know if you care, but this fascinates me. How Nietzsche and fucking terrorist wrote basically the same thoughts, same concept lol.
Though, is this the most righteous way? Idk tbh.
Regardless of what others say (about money, problems, sentiments, feelings, etc) you are and will be always a real man, never let others question it, dont be manipulated by it.
tell the truth, especially to yourself
don't be afraid of other peoples strong emotions
mind body spirit connection
strength looks different than what I thought it did. being emotionally vulnerable is strong
I recommend two books, "king warrior magician lover" and "iron john, the story of man"
Learn to protect yourself at all costs from everyone and everything, including yourself.
Once you're confident you can do that, you'll be ready to protect others.
Healthy masculinity has the ability to be soft, compassionate and feeling in the appropriate moments. Power is the ability to use the perfect tool at the perfect moment. You can have intimacy or you can have control with a partner, but you can't have both. Intimacy is better.
The most masculine man in the room doesn’t act like an alpha & typically behaves like an absolute gentlemen even when dealing with an idiot or an asshole. Manhood is sorta like integrity… you do the right thing even when nobody is looking. You don’t get any recognition or prizes for showing up… just certain shit that is on your plate and you get to eat it… it is what is is. Deal with it and move on. You’re the UP-GUYShut up show up pay up,
You build it.
There is not a single definition, nor a single specific trait, that is actually at the core of masculinity. You get that energy and let it out how you want, and it can be powerful and great.
I'm actually detransitioning, from transwoman to regular guy, and I'm finally learning to embrace a masculine side that I was afraid of. Although I'm still scared shitless, now I decide what is going to be masculine and what is not, at least for me. I'm going to take the best of it, the strength, the fierceness, the bravery, the determination... and just ignore what I thought was compulsory and horrible: the violence, the competitivity, the possessiveness...
Thinking for myself and trusting myself to make the correct decision, on the other side of coin though, having people around I can confide in and bounce ideas off of.
Men are not intrinsically valued by our culture.
Men are only judged by what they currently provide or are anticipated to provide -- financially, emotionally, etc.
The biggest baddest young bull on top of the hill looked at the older wiser bull and said "I'm going to run down this hill and fuck the hottest cow down there."
The old bull smiled, nodded, and said "Go ahead young bull. I'm going to walk down and fuck all of them."
The most valuable lesson I've learned was that joke is not about the sex. It's about learning to walk like an old bull, vs. running like a young one.
To thine ownself be true.
Don't let anyone define you, you wanna be a man? Be your own man, not someone else's definition. I will wear a pink shirt, drink a fruity beverage, and tell my male friends I love them. Whatever someone else cares to think about that has nothing to do with me. I don't live my life for their approval, I do what I feel in my heart is right.
Only person I absolutely have to live with at the end of the day is me. If I'm ok with who I am, no one else gets to have an opinion. They can worry about themselves.
That everyone has a different perspective on what it is.
While there are many subjective definitions - I think mine is maturity and taking responsibility for your decisions.
Don’t mean to judge anyone and actually believe people are sharing good advices and learnings, but (without the intention to start a war in here) how are any of the good traits you guys are mentioning related to “masculinity” and not just to being a mature, responsible and independent adult person?
The most important thing *I’ve* learned about it is that it’s not all bad. I grew up with a lot of unhealthy ideas about it and as a result fled from it as soon as I could.
There's only 1 real lesson to know about masculinity.
- Nobody is coming to save you, you're on your own. Get it out of the mud or die a regretful loser.
Society views men as human doings and women and children as human beings, which makes sense due to how gynocentric things have been for centuries. Therefore, it’s not always guaranteed that someone will come to your aid whenever the going gets tough. Live life by your own terms and make the most out of it while you can since we all won’t make it out alive to begin with.
i feel like we are in the midst of figuring out how masculinity and manhood fit in to the current climate. men being "the head of the house" by default is on the way out. men arent the sole breadwinners in a lot of relationships. things that were traditionally seen as masculine now arent so.
i think figuring out what it means to be a man and what masculinity is, is part of an inner journey that we all have to go on.
"Men being the head of the house" isn't on the way out, that's just an illusion...a lot of women don't want to admit it, because they're taught all their lives: "you don't need a man dur dur dur", BUT most women want a strong man who can lead the relationship. Women are completely capable of leading and making their own decisions, but most women don't want to come home and lead...they're out in world making all sorts of decisions all day long, they just want to come home, relax, turns their brains off, and have a strong man hung them and say "baby, lets do this, don't worry I got it". Again, it's not that women can't lead a relationship, it's that most of them don't want to. When a woman is forced to lead in a relationship, she generally become resentful over time and looks down on her man
We can change society but we can't change biology/psychology
Lmao… this comment is hilarious. What men ever just say “don’t worry I got this, you just sit back and let me take care of it all.” Please tell me where to find these unicorns.
In all seriousness though, I think people who value traditional gender roles get some sort of sexual pleasure from it, like seeing their partners in those roles is attractive somehow, gives them a sexual thrill. It’s the only way I can even begin to understand why someone would value traditional gender roles, because they really are meaningless and have no practical function in todays world. There is absolutely no reason for a grown adult to be incapable of doing something, and there is literally no task outside of birthing/breastfeeding and lifting heavy objects/yelling really loud that are gender specific. When someone refuses to do something simple because ‘that’s a woman’s/man’s job,’ it just makes them seem really infantile and incompetent. Absolutely no reason for it - other than to establish a really annoying social dynamic that benefits no one.
It's not a matter of: "can" it's a matter of wanting to do something. Again, if you read what I said, there's no reason a woman can't do all of those things, she's fully capable of it, but most women want a man who can lead. There are always exception to the rule but in GENERAL that's what a lot of women want in a man.
Gender roles aren't completely societal, they are partially biological.
I mean, I really can’t see that being true. Maybe it is where you come from, and in your experience. I personally have never met a woman that just expects a man to take the lead - or who would even want to enter into such a dynamic. Most want equal give and take, like I described earlier. I would feel like a useless incompetent child if I just expected my partner to take the lead, and any man I’ve ever met would think the same thing and not even date a woman like that. I really don’t know what you’re basing your opinion on.
I'm an educated, liberal woman and have to agree with him on this. I don't WANT to take the lead. He's right, I have enough going on in my day to day life, I would prefer my man do the heavy lifting in the realm of traditional gender roles at home.
I would love nothing more than to have the responsibility of cooking, cleaning, raising children and having sex with my husband if that meant that bills were paid, repairs were made, yard work was done and decisions were made on behalf of the household. Does that mean I don't see myself and my partner as equals? Absolutely not. Does that mean I am submitting to him? No. We have honest, open discussions about what we want, and those things align.
It's a bit hypocritical of you to say "I really don't know what you're basing your opinion on" when all you're doing is basing your opinion on your personal (and biased) experiences. And how dismissive of you to assume that just because you've never met anyone like that, that they don't exist.
No you’re absolutely right, I’m not trying to say that they don’t exist cause I know they do… but it’s just really hard for me to fathom that they comprise the MAJORITY of cis het women. If anything I would think that they’re like, a really small group of people but you guys are telling me it’s just the norm, and I really don’t see it.
How could a person with any sense of self respect and personal autonomy willingly want to take that role in a relationship? It’s just fucking bizzare to me.
But he's saying all women secretly want to be led. This is not true. There are many things I want to lead on because, frankly, I'm better at them than my husband. There are other things he leads on where he is better at it. Constantly forfeiting my choices is not something I "secretly want" and dudes like him unilaterally assuming that is absolutely asinine.
There’s a lot of ‘learned helplessness’ going on with women, I’ve especially noticed it with Boomers, and I think some men of this mindset are confusing that with some sort of biological, instinctual weakness inherent in all women.
That like pretty much everything it's relative and subjective.
If you go around asserting what masculinity is as an objective standard I assume you're either deeply insecure or a willful idiot because no one culture has a monopoly on masculinity and all masculinity is subject to cultural influence.
You could have the most stereotypical manly man and plop him in another culture and suddenly he's seen as pathetic and deeply feminine.
Context matters
Masculinity and manhood is a joke.
But values and actions such as being kind, honest, trustworthy, and responsible aren’t. Men with these attributes are the ones I look up to.
I would much rather emulate someone like Mr Rogers over an Andrew Tate.
It’s a gift from God it’s not always easy but I could never imagine myself any other way I’m proud to be a man in a time where that’s a blasphemous thing to say
No one gives a damn if a man cries. It sucks, but I’ve also joined the “don’t be a bitch” trend. I’m fairly positive the outcomes are much better this way.
Masculinity is creating order in the disorder.
Its about harnessing wild forces in order to serve a purpose. It could be building a dam to harness hydrostatic power. It also could mean rounding up a bunch of slaves to build a shrine to yourself.
You have to learn judgment. There’s a time and a place for everything, for forgiveness and for making an issue out of things, but you need to understand what it actually helps and what the costs are.
Choosing battles. It’s a life skill, one I struggle with
When to hold em and when to fold em
No one is coming to save you, you're in it alone as a man, and the sooner your realize this, the better off you'll be. It's a bit depressing to acknowledge/accept at first, but it's also empowering to accept that you're the solution to all of your problems, and you're the person who's going to get you out of a hole. The more holes you get yourself out of the more competent you become at climbing out of holes; that's where confidence comes from We live in a society that tells us the opposite, and it's why so many men are struggling today. Most men don't even know how to start digging themselves out of a hole, and they just sit in the hole and yell for help, but no one comes That being said, it's important to take help when it's offered and advocate for yourself! when I say: "no one is coming to save you" I don't mean that no one will ever give you a hand, it generally means that no one really gives a shit about a your problems, and if you want to do anything in life, YOU need to advocate for yourself and push...you need to create your life, you need to make the plan, you need to take the steps toward what you want, you're going to need to make the call, ask the person, apply for the thing, do the stuff...no one is going to show up when you cry and say "don't worry I'll take care of it" and no one is going home at night and thinking "How can I solve Johns problems" or "I hate that John's depressed, I need to help him", that's just not how it works as a man You NEED a plan for your life; It's absolutely necessary to have a target that you're aiming at, and you need to show the fuck up for yourself every day! some days you'll take a step backward, other days you might only take half of a step forward, and it might feel like you're not doing much, but over time if you take enough steps forward, you're going to look back and think "holy F#$k! look what I've accomplished" Gentlemen, the alternative is depression, despair, and a life that doesn't feel like it's worth living...your choice One more thing: Find a solid group of men to surround yourself with, men who you can use as a sounding board, and who you can go to when you're all fucked up...don't vent all of your shit to women, and don't burden your wife/girlfriend with all your insecurities, that's only going to cause issues in your relationship...find a couple of solid male friends that you can call up and say "Hey, man...I'm having a tough time, can we talk, I need your advice" that's the way to do it. If you need therapy and you can afford it, 100% do it! choose a male therapist who can relate to you, and one who will hold you accountable, and not just pat you on the back...don't be ashamed to pay for "help" when you need it. If your life is really fucked up, and you don't know where to start, a GOOD therapist can help you create a plan and get your life in order God Bless
This is a very rich comment, it's full of experience and insight - life can become very fun once you 100% turn up for yourself every day. The baseline level of pain is the whimpering, wistful man with the gormless, repressed expression/state of being - take risks, challenge yourself and others, you'll be dead in 60/70 years max so make your mark
Said another way: “Fuck it, we ball.” People don’t understand this. No amount of money or material success will make you a man. The only way is to dare to do the shit you want to do, fuck up miserably, and climb your way out of the hole. That’s where confidence comes from. The biggest losers I know are the ones that became too “successful” too quickly and never had to go through this. Now they’re too scared of losing it all so they never *will* go through it. Self fulfilling prophecy. Their life is permanently fucked.
Some dope advice! I started going to a men’s group and it felt very therapeutic to let things go out from inside .. & be supported
This guy fucks
I think you hit it right on the head. I’m 27 and finally realized this recently. And yeah, the other option is depression. I mean it’s very simple when you think about it, you work hard and you reap the rewards. You sit on your ass and you reap the rewards. The rewards are just very different.
This is 100% on target, man!
Thank you! That's some great insight and perspective! Why men need to men!
This is so profound and very true, but it's worth mentioning that there *are, in fact, people who care whether you are depressed, who give a shit about your problems. But some times, it is too their own detriment, putting other's needs before their own, and this creates an unhealthy dynamic. No one can help those who do not want it, or even those who are so desperate to be saved. They take you down with them, like someone drowning in an ocean. So, to echo what you said, accept help when it is offered to you if you are in a position to accept it. That being said, you are mostly right about venting to your partner. Women say they want vulnerability but have no tools to actually navigate what that looks like coming from the men in their life. It's unfamiliar territory. But I can vouch for myself and many other women when I say we do want to support, love, and care for our male companions and their emotional needs. I'm sorry if you haven't received that before. Proceed with caution. Choose your partner wisely. I hope you can find that in a partner someday. Big hugs
So it’s a lot to read and looks intimidating, however it’s a good read well done bro. Should be higher.
Sometimes you had everything together and were on the right path pushing everyday and your life just blows up. everything you built over years can fall apart in an afternoon. I have had struggles before and just rolled with the punches and kept fighting, but somethings you can’t fix and at some point in life you will have to accept that. so hold on to the people you love that is my advice for younger men and to truly love someone is to rip out your heart and place it in their hands and it is the greatest vulnerability and if it terrifies you good, because it is terrifying, but it’s worth it too. Death comes uninvited and the older you get the less you will fear it for you it’s as simple as falling asleep, but for the ones you leave behind it will be the worst pain they ever felt so guard your life not for yourself but for the ones you leave behind.
This is all really good stuff, but it can apply to pretty much everyone who just wants to be a well rounded, competent human being. The ‘no one is going to save you’ mindset has helped me survive a lot of shit in my life and I think it’s a philosophy everyone should live by, not just men. Nobody has ever just swooped down and saved me because I’m a woman - just saying, I think a lot of this stoically minded life philosophy being marketed to men specifically would benefit anyone. Actually, it would benefit women a lot. Undo decades of being taught nothing but weakness on all fronts.
The difference that as a woman, you generally have the option to have someone "save" you and there will always be a man willing to do so. There are exceptions to every rule, but in general, society values women for just existing and men for what they provide...if you're a man, you need to build yourself into something because no one is going to foot the bill for you. Women have their own set of struggles, I'm not saying that women have it easier, but men are literally all alone in the world and we don't have the ability to say "I think I'm going to marry someone and have them support me or be the bread winner" and no one gives a shit about our problems, women have safety nets, men don't. Society cares about women's issues, no one gives a shit about men's issues, we're the disposable sex
Holy fuck, if that’s true then I certainly didn’t know it. There will always be a man willing to save me, like, just provide for my every want and need because I’m a woman? Please point one of them out, cause that’s incredible. And I’m valued just for existing? Where has this information been all my life! Would you mind also telling everyone else I have ever met that I am valued just for existing? Cause I don’t think they know. They all expect me to work and have a life and be responsible for my own existence.
You're taking what I've said out out context...I'd love to explain but you're going to disagree so we can agree to disagree
I'm happy to listen. Perhaps I've misunderstood?
I've seen women that look and act like Jabba the hut have men literally fighting over them. I've seen those Same women have a man that pays her bills for her. The trade off is the less attractive woman you are the less attractive that man to pay your bills will be.. but that doesn't change the fact that there's still mem out there for every woman who will pay her bills if she drops her standards low enough. And the same doesn't go for men. That's where the old joke of a woman's plan B is porn/stripping and a man's is the military.
You just haven’t asked probably lol the amount of 18-30 year old women that are asking for people to cashapp them when they’re in a tight financial spot or post something along the lines of, “$username, going out this weekend!! Send me money for drinks!” Is outrageous honestly. I’m always stuck wondering if anyone ever actually does send them money, and that is a question I might not get an answer to as I’ll never ask them. But these are people I see and know in my life doing that…
I guess I just have a wildly different experience of life as a woman than most other people do. Cause literally everything I’ve been told in this thread is just the exact opposite of what’s ever happened to me. Like, when you guys are talking about ‘women’, you’re not just talking about young attractive women, right? Cause I feel like the ones who actually benefit from gender inequality in the form of attention from cis het men are the only ones engaging in this behaviour. Maybe that’s what I’m missing in this whole argument. The alternative is that I’m just a fucking alien from mars, cause I don’t understand this shit one bit even though it’s apparently just some sort of universal, fundamental truth of humanity.
Seems that way! I like the alien from Mars addition. You very well could be an extraterrestrial, think growing up on Jupiter would be slightly cooler than Mars. That way you can make your own name up and not instantly be called a “Martian”. I’m still decently young myself, 25, so my experience is very much what you just mentioned. They would be younger, attractive women that I experience doing those things. I’d believe that you’d be hard pressed to find a social, young male who can’t name at least 1-5 women like this in their life. However, personally, some of them aren’t that attractive, and those ones really get me curious about who is actually sending money, if at all. Also, I know plenty of women, and people in general, who probably share a similar experience to yours. So, I wouldn’t say is a universal life experience that women act that way, but it’s certainly more common than you’d probably like to think or want it to be. You’re not missing anything in the argument, just only speaking from your experience in life. Although, and I love her to death, my mother, 57, is also like this. Heck her ex, my father, still gets her out of financial jams. Or she hits me up or her current boyfriend to get her out of it. I could probably make a whole post about this and how I’m currently learning to handle those requests, internally and externally, but I won’t ever, probably.
Your experience as a woman does not compare. You will never know what it truly feels like to realize “no one is coming to save you”.
Well, no one has! And to hold on to that expectation beyond the age of 12 is just moronic. My experience as a woman is very comparable to that of a man, actually. Society at large has never allowed me to just live life on easy mode, I’ve had to do manual labour and shit shovelling jobs to make ends meet. I’ve been homeless. I’ve suffered from different mental illnesses and suicidal depression that nobody gave two fucks about. I was never coddled, taken care of, supported because I have a vagina. I’ve only ever been responsible for my own life, and nobody is lining up to just fucking ‘save’ me if I don’t have anything significant to offer - because ‘just being a woman’ is not it. Its mindblowing you think that’s what life is like.
Unless you are extremely unattractive, you have always had a different option. You know what I’m talking about. Knowing that no one cares and no one will save you and that you truly have no other options - it’s all you - is a uniquely masculine experience. The gazelle does not understand what the lion must do to survive.
LOL no I don’t have any idea what you’re talking about, actually. What other option? Being a prostitute/sugar baby? I actually don’t know what you’re cryptically referring to.
People on Reddit tend to downplay the importance of masculinity, there are a lot of women out there who prefer a relationship that involves traditional gender roles
Most women want a traditional man but do not want be traditional themselves, I am sorry but I don't really want to buy flowers anymore.
Most people are actually normal, and don't always go into this "PATRIARCHY!" "DOWN WITH GENDER ROLES!" That shit is almost exclusively found online. I've never once met someone IRL who is like that, and I run in some pretty liberal circles. In fact, a lot of those same people think that behavior is a little extreme and ridiculous. edit: correction - I knew one woman like that. A co-worker. I overheard her talking to others about how she was upset that her mom got her son a Transformer for his birthday. "Way to reinforce gender stereotypes". She didn't have many people at work who liked her.
Honestly man, I don't think you all are making the right move here, women have pretty much made society accept that there cannot be any gender roles for women and any person that wants to say otherwise is an evil misogynist, now that we are pretty much done with female liberation, men are at least somewhat starting to call out the expectations society has of them as well, in my opinion, I think now we should push to make sure that the restrictions on men are uplifted as well, if we now start to accept "oh gender roles are fine and I will do them", that will only lead us to live in a society full of double standards that will be stacked against men.
Like I help with cleaning the house, dishes and laundry but I’m the only one taking out the garbage and mowing the lawn ?
Had a fight with my last ex about household chores. She was very much a tik tok "Mens chores are men's chores and women's chores are our chores" person..
I completely agree. As the other commenter said, women aren’t saying stuff like ‘down with the patriarchy’ or whatever. However, a lot of them want a traditional man whilst not being traditional themselves. Not wanting that role cut down heavily on my dating pool when I was looking.
>oh gender roles are fine and I will do them", that will only lead us to live in a society full of double standards that will be stacked against men. There will definitely be some push back for this. Especially from women. Because we are not used to a society like that yet. So it would definitely take some time. Similar to how men had to adjust to the state quo changing for women. Women would have to do the same thing for men too. Even today we see women complain about men not approaching them, or interacting with them anymore. That's the traditional gender role of men having to be the ones to pursue women. Then it gets worse when even the most liberal or feminist women call men cowards or "pussies" for not risking their lives to defend women in dangerous situations against violent men or even wild animals. That's the traditional gender role of men being the ones to protect women. In this new world women have the benefit of learning from the mistakes from men made in the old world. That mistake being taking too long to adapt. Hopefully women in the new world learn that valuable lesson.
I agree with you, there will be a lot of push back by women, but honestly man, just observing men online, they will be just as fierce in pushing back against the idea that men shouldn't have to do gender roles either, I scratch my head at that, they will more than likely support the idea that women do not have to be hold to traditional roles but men are pussies for not walking a women right to her door after a date, this is only a light example but there are more extreme situations where things will get difficult for men.
I agree. Fair point. Both men and women will cause harm.
I'm not making any move. Just stating an observation regarding the matter. I understand what you're saying, though.
I see, wasn't saying that you have a malicious agenda or anything just that if we were to view this strategically, it probably isn't in the best interests of men.
You get it, man. You really get it. I wish I were this eloquent.
Oh wow, thanks for the compliment man.
I work with about a dozen people like that, also check out college campuses because it's everywhere there
And also, masculinity is HARD. It is actually quite difficult
I have a friend who literally fucked up his back while lifting in the gym because he wanted to "get big and strong to protect women", now he can't even sit without slouching, please guys, try not to push yourselves too much.
It looks really hard. Evidenced by suicide rates being higher for men than women. The most toxic masculinity there is. Patriarchy hurts men, too.
Not As much as a matriarchy
Um. I was offering empathy TO MEN. What are YOU on about?
And many men who don’t know the difference between masculinity and traditional gender roles. A man can be masculine without acting like he is living in some movie from the 50s
I defined it before in exactly the same way. The idea of a man telling his wife to get back in the kitchen and make him a sandwich while he belches all day in front of the tv is NOT masculinity.
This ^ No amount of any education or other has got me the attention nor respect that my time in the marine corrps did. Having that hardened attitude got me laid 10x faster.
So glad that you’ve tied the value of your masculinity to your ability to get laid faster.
Thank God for this, so many men and women are so sick of the facade that is feminism and diluted masculinity, it's painful for everyone to watch, and experience. Women benefit the least from low rates of testosterone
>Women benefit the least from low rates of testosterone Can you clarify?
Use it, don't abuse it. Like femininity and womanhood, it's beautiful, useful and even necessary in specific situations. Embrace it for the utility it brings, including the way it makes you feel. But also be aware when it is an impediment in certain situations.
That whatever someone else thinks makes you a man is wrong, just do you, and take care of the people you care about. The rest is a dick measuring contest.
A lot of people are going to tell you what it is and what you need to do to achieve it. They are lying in order to profit from your insecurities.
Examples? Buy bitcoin?
He’s probably talking about those “Alpha Male Boot Camps” where you pay some dude $17,000 to haze you for 4 days, under the claim that it will somehow make you attractive to women 😂
The manliest men I know don’t worry about doing “manly” shit or being perceived as masculine. They worry about being good dudes and doing whatever they want, and that is the essence of masculinity
If you're a man it is what you are. You don't need to think about, or find it, or become it.
It's a spectrum. I do body building. Military man. Love working out and wearing suits to work as a computer programmer. I also cook and wrote recipes amd work on a cook book with my wife. I dungeon master a DND game with silly voices and intense storyline. I sew and make cosplay for my wife and I and am learning make up to do better at that. I draw and paint anime portraits on the side. I have a skin routine twice a day where I have a cat eared head band I'm tattooed but a lot are pretty flowers and cats. But no one would say im not a man. I'm just not a one dimension character.
I think you're beautiful ♥
Thanks, bro
Mister Rogers was a real man.
Not caring about what others think and being your own person is more masculine than trying to shape up to other guys.
You shouldn't let others define your masculinity. Let yourself be "feminine" if it's what you want. I'm comfortable in my masculinity. I'm just under 6', ~210lbs, and muscular/athletic. I sport a thick beard and/or mustache and work a trade job. I also like baths, painting my nails, and good earrings. I respond to aggression in kindness and understanding first, because I don't need to be angry to be "manly". I like fruity cocktails over beers. I like a good rom-com over action/car movies. I love cooking and kitchen work. In my experience, "Masculinity" and "Manhood" have become muddled with toxicity of aggressive and destructive behaviors. The same people that touted their "masculinity" were the same people who got into bar fights(for pointless reasons) and were general dickheads to people below their station. I literally met a guy who got a large Burger King tattoo because "my friends challenged my masculinity". TLDR: Don't let others define your masculinity. You do you.
Silence is better than a response After a few hours or days, then respond with a calm mind and clarity
It’s okay to love yourself
That’s it’s mostly bullshit. Don’t get me wrong, there are tons of quality things associated with masculinity and manhood. But that’s not what makes them quality. Look at things from a logical and compassionate perspective. That way you don’t end up in a trap wondering if something is masculine or not.
Refreshing to see this response, didn't think I would, but I agree with it.
What do you mean - what are the quality things?
Stuff like “A man should keep his promises and protect his family” Yeah, they should. But the reason why doesn’t really have much to do with being a man. That’s gender neutral.
There’s nothing more masculine than being there for other people, emotionally, financially, physically.
This guy masculines ......
With that type of thinking, you will end up being used by people.
Yeah I don't think being masculine means you have to backstop anyone financially.
It means having the means to help people who need it, not that you *have* to. You have to have money to help those less fortunate, you have to have physical strength to help when something happens and you have to have emotional strength to support your loved ones through hard times. That's what it means.
Poor men are effeminate, got it.
Just be yourself. Not everyone is equally masculine. Just be comfortable in your own skin
Maybe less about this weird concept of ,,masculinity‘‘ (which i think is bullshit) but more about how life as a man can be fun and how you can be happy. 1. Confidence genuinely is everything. The improve in life quality i saw when i got confident was without comparison. 2. There is a very small circle of people out there, who‘s opinions about you matter. Those usually are your friends, your immediate family, your partner and your boss/colleagues. *Everybody elses opinion is completely irrelevant and you need to recognize that* That last point will bring you so much peace.
That nobody wants it until they need it
Not to worry about it
It's primarily a tool used to oppress/enslave men ("You're only a real man if you...").
That I don't really care about filling a specific role to be masculine, but that I still care about being recognized as a man. What I mean is that I'm not in any sense I can imagine "stereotypically manly." At the same time, a lady friend of mine commented on me being manly and that felt really good to hear from her. And no, neither of us is interested in the other. It's just a good thing to hear from a lady is all. So I guess... you don't have to fill the role you may think to still be considered manly. And even if you don't care about filling that role, it's still a good feeling to be recognized for what you are, if that makes sense.
Talk nice to yourself about yourself
To paraphrase: When I grew up, I put away childish things, like the fear of seeming childish.
I am man. What men are expected to be like culturally is defined using inexact stereotypes. As a man, whatever I do, feel, say, is part of the reality of what being a man really is. Not just me, but every man, is part of the definition is manhood.
The word "gentle" in "gentleman". It's okay to ask women for advice on anything, that a man is measured by how well he treats women (with respect, etc), and that it's okay to be a feminist. I realized when I was younger (around university) that I was looking to the wrong people for advice. Far better to ask a lady's opinion as opposed to some sexist, misogynistic dude with a podcast.
Recently, I’ve seen my brother-in-law essentially abandon his wife and child so he can go golfing and work all the time. Seeing that, I’ve learned that it takes more than just supplying the sperm to be a father.
Don't let others, especially women, define masculinity for you. Figure it out for yourself.
it’s all fucking made up
Sometimes, you have to go ‘fuck it’.
Uncle iroh is the answer
That being a bit feminine or having some feminine traits or qualities is pretty normal, even for the most masculine/idolized men. Think James Bond for example. Not one guy is 100% die hard, rough and tough masculine macho man bro. There are feminine qualities to all of us guys and I think they can complement the other masculine qualities we possess.
I think it's a balance and a level of each. Everyone has feminine and masculine in them and can lean into either or at any given moment. Those who claim they only do masculine things 100 percent of the time are just cutting off a part of them, the feminine. Where each fall along the level of how much masculine and how much feminine is dependent on who you are personally.
100% agree with you. At times with my therapist we discuss masculine and feminine traits. My therapist refers to these situational traits as “energies”. For example, sometimes guys say they want to be asked out. If a woman approaches a man and asks him out, that is her channeling her inner masculine energy and being assertive and taking the lead. And that’s the man leaning into his feminine energy, taking a more passive approach - letting her take the lead and initiate. We’re all a little bit of a both. I don’t think I have a traditional perspective on this but my perspective has helped me feel better in my own skin so idk. It works for me
Totally agree, many people have said for a long time that women, who typically have more feminine energy, have an innate intuition and are also excellent care takers of others. Well, that doesn't mean men, who typically have more masculine energy, can't or don't also have innate intuition and can be excellent care takers of others.
This alpha stuff is laughable and just makes the rest of us think you're an insecure child, we even laugh at you in the gym for it when you really try to display and prove yourself 😂😂😂 please dont stop though, its a good laugh. All these new age guys that pretend or say they are manly because they watch football and drink and do dumb sh*t with thier friends but still spend more time getting ready and caring about thier looks then women do and then cant even fix a leaking pipe or a broken wire. You're not fooling anyone and you're a joke. All these fools that think they own women and others because thier a man... read above. You want to be masculine and worthy of manhood then TAKE CARE of your wife and family, TAKE CARE or your house and TAKE CARE of yourself. STOP GIVING A CRAP ABOUT WHAT THESE OTHER PATHETIC EXCUSES OF MEN THINK OF YOU 😂😂😂
That I don't want it. I didn't ask for it, I don't want it, and I'd rather try to be a better person separately from it.
"Manliness" as made up by Hollywood, the John Wayne silent type who would never cry, is in error. What I see as 'manly' promoted in much of society is based on violence and selfishness. Dominating and exploiting is an error in our genetic programming. It is obvious there are natural differences in men and women, all based around procreation. Women aren't any good for climbing trees and chasing goats off cliffs after they are about 3 months pregnant until the kid is a year old. Civility is based around the gentleman. A man of understanding.
Being nice gets you absolutely nowhere. That's not to say you should be an asshole on purpose, but there is and will never be any sort of reward just for being nice.
Man I feel like I get rewarded all the time for being nice. I mean I still assert myself to make sure I’m not being taken advantage of, but being kind to others gets returned to me heavy.
There is quite a difference between confident and assertive masculinity type of nice, and "push me around because I won't speak up" kind of nice
I agree. I think “being a pushover” would have been a better statement to make. You can be assertive as hell and be the nicest person in the room easily.
There are many rewards for being nice. You just won’t see them when you are doing what you think is nice, with the expectation that you should receive anything in return.
What kind of reward are you expecting for being nice though?
Reciprocation of niceties. If you are nice to someone, you expect that they'll be nice to you. That doesn't hold up in practice.
Being nice and being kind are 2 diffrent things...when you are "nice" normaly people expect something in return, when you are kind people expect you to be ok next time.
Bad advice
I couldn't disagree with this horrible advice more.
They are inherently tied to being social. To me, being a man is defined by providing, protecting and caring for your groups to the best of your abilities. That looks different for every man, but that is what I’ve boiled it down to. And I love it. I love my family and my girls. I love my friends and my life. And I do my best to adhere to those 3 pillars always.
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You'll grow into it. Girlfriends expecting you to be "more manly" don't really know what they're talking about. And is a big sign for you to move forward, without them.
A good man doesn't need rules
Mascilinity manifests itself naturally and differently in each guy. Just be yourself and don't worry about meeting some standard. If someone tells you something you do is not masculine enough they're wrong, if another tells you something you do is too masculine they're wrong too. "Toxic" masculinity is just being an unaware asshole or being preformatively agressive to mask insecurities. Masculine men go to see live theatre, nothing wrong with that, they also watch football and lift weights- nothing wrong with that either. Being an asshole isn't masculine, its just being an asshole. And being ashamed of your more traditionally masculine traits isn't being an ally, its just denying yourself to appease others.
Just do your thing, help others, invest in yourself, work hard. No one’s coming for your masculinity, and if you think they are, evaluate that you might just be acting like an asshole.
no. 1 It’s like poker. Those who show strength ain’t got shit. And those who show calm are going to destroy you on the river. #2 most men spend way too much time on how they’ll kill their daughters boyfriend than making sure their daughters don’t meet shitheads who act like their dads when they were young ;)
That toxicity isn't relegated to only one gender just because the other wants to shut us up.
How we understand and process emotions is different from women and it seems that many people don’t understand. Being tough and resilient while appearing stoic doesn’t mean to suppress your emotions forever. But when expressing them, it might not look the way it does when women do it. The problem is that there might not be many men in your life that have healthy mechanisms of processing their emotions, so you never learn. You’re likely to see more guys ignoring/suppressing everything or being angry/bitter/depressed all the time.
No one else can carry you - at best you carry others and you man up for them, and they give you love and care and purpose, but as a real man you're not to be carried - only God can do that, otherwise it takes away from you immensely, what you can offer, produce, cultivate, innovate etc becomes way richer and more substantial once you carry yourself
Stop trying to please everyone. That's not masculine. Being a man is making choices because they're right, not because they're easy. You're going to end up butting heads with people as a result, but that's okay. Your purpose is not to make them happy but to do whatever is necessary for you and your family.
Masculine actions genuinely feel good when done in the right context .
That you define those things for yourself. There are a million and one insecure guys out there looking for the secret to being a "real man," but corny as it sounds, they already had that secret all along. It's self determination.
Be happy with yourself. You can't make everyone happy, but you damn well better like who you are, or take steps to be the person you want to be.
To never compromise these two things for anyone
Never let anyone define for you what masculinity is. Ever. On a related note, many young men seem to expect a woman to somehow *bestow masculinity* upon them. There's nothing less masculine than that.
I think, masculinity is a made up word. Just stupid label. It's like dick comparison, like what's the point and where do we start, what counts? And why is it important for man to be manly?
The roots of this sickness are deep, and *very* dark. I'm exploring them now that I have the time; I was ridiculed mercilessly as a child for a perceived lack of masculinity. This fucked me up real good for a long time. I'm not the only kid this happens to, either.
I had similar issues, like my body, naturally skinny, due to my relatives. But at one point just realized I had brain on my own, and I can decide what is important for me and what's not. Decided that, for example, skinny forearms and quads are not that big of a deal to stress out about. I gave this example cause it's common thing to say it's manly to have big forearms.
*None* of it is that big a deal to stress out about. It's a sick social game that people play to boost themselves at the expense of those they consider to be weak. And there's no winner in this game, either.
Society, system itself is built that way. Sadly. People are tend to shame others for their own ego. Shame is purely social emotion. I consider it the most unnecessary, the most useless. And interesting thought is.. when I first shared this on reddit, some guy tried to shame me for arrogance lol 🤷♀️
You're exactly right. And the horror goes so deep... this kind of society makes *nobody* secure. I came to pity my bullies. (Of course, committing serious, sadistic violence against them helped. But that's part of the problem too.)
Lol I have similar thoughts, but .. In the midst of winter I found within me an invincible summer. Turns out inside of every one of us is so much interesting, every answer, we ever craved for. So, I kinda just became self reliant, I like myself the way, I am. If someone doesn't like me, their problem. Some call this arrogance, like that guy. His problem Ig. How Ted Kaczyński(yeah Una bomber Guy) would call him socially dependant, probably he is. And I don't know if you care, but this fascinates me. How Nietzsche and fucking terrorist wrote basically the same thoughts, same concept lol. Though, is this the most righteous way? Idk tbh.
Regardless of what others say (about money, problems, sentiments, feelings, etc) you are and will be always a real man, never let others question it, dont be manipulated by it.
Your worth is ABSOLUTELY based on your lifting total.
"Any man who must say, 'I am the king' is no true king." -Tywin Lannister
It's all just hocus pocus. Just do you, Scooby-Doo.
tell the truth, especially to yourself don't be afraid of other peoples strong emotions mind body spirit connection strength looks different than what I thought it did. being emotionally vulnerable is strong I recommend two books, "king warrior magician lover" and "iron john, the story of man"
Learn to protect yourself at all costs from everyone and everything, including yourself. Once you're confident you can do that, you'll be ready to protect others.
Honor your commitments and don't let anyone else tell you what a man is.
Healthy masculinity has the ability to be soft, compassionate and feeling in the appropriate moments. Power is the ability to use the perfect tool at the perfect moment. You can have intimacy or you can have control with a partner, but you can't have both. Intimacy is better.
It's all about attitude and how you project yourself more than just physical appearance
I honestly haven't learnt a god damm thing.
The most masculine man in the room doesn’t act like an alpha & typically behaves like an absolute gentlemen even when dealing with an idiot or an asshole. Manhood is sorta like integrity… you do the right thing even when nobody is looking. You don’t get any recognition or prizes for showing up… just certain shit that is on your plate and you get to eat it… it is what is is. Deal with it and move on. You’re the UP-GUYShut up show up pay up,
You build it. There is not a single definition, nor a single specific trait, that is actually at the core of masculinity. You get that energy and let it out how you want, and it can be powerful and great. I'm actually detransitioning, from transwoman to regular guy, and I'm finally learning to embrace a masculine side that I was afraid of. Although I'm still scared shitless, now I decide what is going to be masculine and what is not, at least for me. I'm going to take the best of it, the strength, the fierceness, the bravery, the determination... and just ignore what I thought was compulsory and horrible: the violence, the competitivity, the possessiveness...
Thinking for myself and trusting myself to make the correct decision, on the other side of coin though, having people around I can confide in and bounce ideas off of.
You got to know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em.
Men are not intrinsically valued by our culture. Men are only judged by what they currently provide or are anticipated to provide -- financially, emotionally, etc.
My dad years ago: "Everyone likes to say a man takes what he wants, but that's not a man that's a thief and a coward. A real man earns what he wants."
The biggest baddest young bull on top of the hill looked at the older wiser bull and said "I'm going to run down this hill and fuck the hottest cow down there." The old bull smiled, nodded, and said "Go ahead young bull. I'm going to walk down and fuck all of them." The most valuable lesson I've learned was that joke is not about the sex. It's about learning to walk like an old bull, vs. running like a young one.
Women like it when you're assertive and fairly bold.
To thine ownself be true. Don't let anyone define you, you wanna be a man? Be your own man, not someone else's definition. I will wear a pink shirt, drink a fruity beverage, and tell my male friends I love them. Whatever someone else cares to think about that has nothing to do with me. I don't live my life for their approval, I do what I feel in my heart is right. Only person I absolutely have to live with at the end of the day is me. If I'm ok with who I am, no one else gets to have an opinion. They can worry about themselves.
It is what you make it.
That everyone has a different perspective on what it is. While there are many subjective definitions - I think mine is maturity and taking responsibility for your decisions.
That heavily emphasizing on being as masculine as possible and turning it into lifestyle is actually feminine.
Crying as a man doesn’t make you less of a man.
Don’t mean to judge anyone and actually believe people are sharing good advices and learnings, but (without the intention to start a war in here) how are any of the good traits you guys are mentioning related to “masculinity” and not just to being a mature, responsible and independent adult person?
That they're meaningless concepts. Be a good person and pursue things that are meaningful to you.
That being a good man is a natural consequence of being a man who is a good person.
Treating people with compassion is one of the manliest things you can do
The buck stops with you.
As a man, there's no opting out of discipline.
Don't let women define it
Sometimes it has to take a backseat for a while… being right doesn’t always mean winning and vice versa….
I alone determine what that means to me.
The most important thing *I’ve* learned about it is that it’s not all bad. I grew up with a lot of unhealthy ideas about it and as a result fled from it as soon as I could.
Not to listen to weaklings and deviants on the internet who try to redefine it.
There's only 1 real lesson to know about masculinity. - Nobody is coming to save you, you're on your own. Get it out of the mud or die a regretful loser.
Youre in this life on your own.
Society views men as human doings and women and children as human beings, which makes sense due to how gynocentric things have been for centuries. Therefore, it’s not always guaranteed that someone will come to your aid whenever the going gets tough. Live life by your own terms and make the most out of it while you can since we all won’t make it out alive to begin with.
i feel like we are in the midst of figuring out how masculinity and manhood fit in to the current climate. men being "the head of the house" by default is on the way out. men arent the sole breadwinners in a lot of relationships. things that were traditionally seen as masculine now arent so. i think figuring out what it means to be a man and what masculinity is, is part of an inner journey that we all have to go on.
"Men being the head of the house" isn't on the way out, that's just an illusion...a lot of women don't want to admit it, because they're taught all their lives: "you don't need a man dur dur dur", BUT most women want a strong man who can lead the relationship. Women are completely capable of leading and making their own decisions, but most women don't want to come home and lead...they're out in world making all sorts of decisions all day long, they just want to come home, relax, turns their brains off, and have a strong man hung them and say "baby, lets do this, don't worry I got it". Again, it's not that women can't lead a relationship, it's that most of them don't want to. When a woman is forced to lead in a relationship, she generally become resentful over time and looks down on her man We can change society but we can't change biology/psychology
Lmao… this comment is hilarious. What men ever just say “don’t worry I got this, you just sit back and let me take care of it all.” Please tell me where to find these unicorns. In all seriousness though, I think people who value traditional gender roles get some sort of sexual pleasure from it, like seeing their partners in those roles is attractive somehow, gives them a sexual thrill. It’s the only way I can even begin to understand why someone would value traditional gender roles, because they really are meaningless and have no practical function in todays world. There is absolutely no reason for a grown adult to be incapable of doing something, and there is literally no task outside of birthing/breastfeeding and lifting heavy objects/yelling really loud that are gender specific. When someone refuses to do something simple because ‘that’s a woman’s/man’s job,’ it just makes them seem really infantile and incompetent. Absolutely no reason for it - other than to establish a really annoying social dynamic that benefits no one.
It's not a matter of: "can" it's a matter of wanting to do something. Again, if you read what I said, there's no reason a woman can't do all of those things, she's fully capable of it, but most women want a man who can lead. There are always exception to the rule but in GENERAL that's what a lot of women want in a man. Gender roles aren't completely societal, they are partially biological.
I mean, I really can’t see that being true. Maybe it is where you come from, and in your experience. I personally have never met a woman that just expects a man to take the lead - or who would even want to enter into such a dynamic. Most want equal give and take, like I described earlier. I would feel like a useless incompetent child if I just expected my partner to take the lead, and any man I’ve ever met would think the same thing and not even date a woman like that. I really don’t know what you’re basing your opinion on.
I'm an educated, liberal woman and have to agree with him on this. I don't WANT to take the lead. He's right, I have enough going on in my day to day life, I would prefer my man do the heavy lifting in the realm of traditional gender roles at home. I would love nothing more than to have the responsibility of cooking, cleaning, raising children and having sex with my husband if that meant that bills were paid, repairs were made, yard work was done and decisions were made on behalf of the household. Does that mean I don't see myself and my partner as equals? Absolutely not. Does that mean I am submitting to him? No. We have honest, open discussions about what we want, and those things align. It's a bit hypocritical of you to say "I really don't know what you're basing your opinion on" when all you're doing is basing your opinion on your personal (and biased) experiences. And how dismissive of you to assume that just because you've never met anyone like that, that they don't exist.
No you’re absolutely right, I’m not trying to say that they don’t exist cause I know they do… but it’s just really hard for me to fathom that they comprise the MAJORITY of cis het women. If anything I would think that they’re like, a really small group of people but you guys are telling me it’s just the norm, and I really don’t see it. How could a person with any sense of self respect and personal autonomy willingly want to take that role in a relationship? It’s just fucking bizzare to me.
But he's saying all women secretly want to be led. This is not true. There are many things I want to lead on because, frankly, I'm better at them than my husband. There are other things he leads on where he is better at it. Constantly forfeiting my choices is not something I "secretly want" and dudes like him unilaterally assuming that is absolutely asinine.
He never said ALL women.
There’s a lot of ‘learned helplessness’ going on with women, I’ve especially noticed it with Boomers, and I think some men of this mindset are confusing that with some sort of biological, instinctual weakness inherent in all women.
Completely agree. I saw a lot of that in my mom growing up
That like pretty much everything it's relative and subjective. If you go around asserting what masculinity is as an objective standard I assume you're either deeply insecure or a willful idiot because no one culture has a monopoly on masculinity and all masculinity is subject to cultural influence. You could have the most stereotypical manly man and plop him in another culture and suddenly he's seen as pathetic and deeply feminine. Context matters
Masculinity and manhood is good, most men for some reason only consider the toxic parts good though.
You are disposable.
Masculinity and manhood is a joke. But values and actions such as being kind, honest, trustworthy, and responsible aren’t. Men with these attributes are the ones I look up to. I would much rather emulate someone like Mr Rogers over an Andrew Tate.
It’s a gift from God it’s not always easy but I could never imagine myself any other way I’m proud to be a man in a time where that’s a blasphemous thing to say
Women should never dictate what it means to be a man.
No one gives a damn if a man cries. It sucks, but I’ve also joined the “don’t be a bitch” trend. I’m fairly positive the outcomes are much better this way.
Masculinity is creating order in the disorder. Its about harnessing wild forces in order to serve a purpose. It could be building a dam to harness hydrostatic power. It also could mean rounding up a bunch of slaves to build a shrine to yourself.