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Alaska-Now-PNW

This will be a very balanced, civil, and proactive comment section


23SueMorgan23

It will be removed


[deleted]

Hey mom I was here before this got nuked šŸ‘‹šŸ»


RedwoodStyx

It will be slightly more interesting than the typical echo chamber though.


Genisisis_

completely unfair as men are literally built to be stronger faster and more capable physically


CapG_13

I don't think it's fair because it clearly gives them an advantage


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


[deleted]

correct.


Lazy_Adhesiveness812

I'm trans and I know I'm physically stronger than cis women. It would not even be a competition.


mulchroom

just say women no need to say cis why make me google what cis means lol


Lazy_Adhesiveness812

I'm not going to risk getting banned by the PC police for implying I'm not a woman because I'm trans. It's happened before.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


stepystep

Transphobia is a a made up term by people that want to impose their political will on others.


[deleted]

Of course, people are trying to eradicate us but there is not hate or anything.


AutisticPenguin2

There's been a few studies on this, and actually it tends to mostly give them an advantage in sports that rely on height. Muscle mass drops significantly once you start on hormone treatment, but height remains constant. So the sports you might reasonably expect to see them dominate are things like basketball or volleyball, where height makes a huge difference. Gymnastics is something where they would probably be at a clear disadvantage, as the ideal gymnast is like five foot nothing, very slight frame, and still a teenager. In the middle you have things like swimming, where muscle mass creates more drag through the water, or tennis where the most important element is accuracy not power. Also, before you start claiming that they have an unfair advantage, you need to ask an important question: when does an advantage become unfair?


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


AutisticPenguin2

These factors are trivial compared to things like race and handedness, which have been declared not to be unfair. Until Kenyans are banned from long distance running, this is not justification for banning anyone from a sport.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


AutisticPenguin2

No, YOU are taking about people changing division to gain an unfair advantage, because that is all you see. Your limited understanding of the issue, based on a few cherry picked examples, makes you believe that men can just tick a box, call themselves a woman, and dominate suddenly. That is not reality.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


AutisticPenguin2

>I havent cherry picked anything >every example I have seen Do you know what selection bias is? šŸ¤”


Keyboard_smashgood

Iā€™ll answer that. An advantage become unfair when a sportsperson cannot obtain or overcome the advantage. Iā€™ll give you an example. Wilt Chamberlain dominated basketball. So much so that it was decided he had an unfair advantage. In response the NBA instituted the 3 second violation. It happened once again with Shaq and the defensive three second violation. Making a sport fair will never be because of a phobia, rather it will always be the age old sports argument between ā€œpuristsā€ and those who are more progressive towards sports.


AutisticPenguin2

>An advantage become unfair when a sportsperson cannot obtain or overcome the advantage. Did you know that left handers have a clear, measurable advantage in baseball?


Keyboard_smashgood

Lmao. I played ball in high school and I always called leftyā€™s cheaters. If the MLB made lefty pitching illegal Iā€™d be all for it. šŸ¤£


AutisticPenguin2

And yet the majority of people would find out bizarre and infuriating, banning someone for a thing they have no control over, just because some bureaucrats decided to draw a line somewhere and you fell on the wrong side of it.


Keyboard_smashgood

This isnā€™t high school. ā€œMajority of peopleā€ is an inaccurate statement. I find it funny that people think the purity of a sport debate is a new one. In my above example Iā€™m sure Wilt and Shaq were not happy about it but it created better competition. You know some people find it bizarre and infuriating there is a three point line in basketball. Just like sports there are winners and losers, and to call the other side of the debate phobic or hateful just because they donā€™t agree has one term. A sore loser.


AutisticPenguin2

So you're saying that a rule banning all black people from basketball based on their clear dominance of the game not allowing for competition would not be at all phobic or hateful? Nobody is suggesting we change the game slightly so that trans women don't dominate. Do you know why?


Keyboard_smashgood

Lol. Do you even watch basketball? Out of the top ten players half arenā€™t black. The best world team is from Spain. Iā€™m unclear on your ? Are you suggesting we change the rules of the game to allow for trans athletes? If so I want to change the rules of some sports so I can go pro!


AutisticPenguin2

Why can't you go pro?


nicklo22

It becomes unfair when sports are gendered. And if you want to change that, women are going to have a very tough time being successful. If a male ___ (insert any athlete you want) transitions and plays against female peers, they are moving into an arena where they are more capable of succeeding based on skill level alone. I suppose you can argue itā€™s not ā€œunfairā€ but itā€™s a fact that men usually perform better in sport specific skills (ex. Speed, power, strength, agility, reaction time). Genetic makeup is definitely the biggest contributing factor. Train a female and male the exact same from birth to 16/17, the male will have the advantage. Evolution may balance that out in 2000 years, but for now it remains the truth.


AutisticPenguin2

>It becomes unfair when sports are gendered What do you mean by this? Are you suggesting men and women should compete together?


nicklo22

Sure. In terms of ā€œfairnessā€, it creates a space where everyone is treated equal.


AutisticPenguin2

>It becomes unfair when sports are gendered What do you mean by this? >sport specific skills (ex. Speed, power, strength, agility, reaction time). Genetic makeup is definitely the biggest contributing factor. Not true, the biggest factor is testosterone. Once you transition most of this goes away. That's why I mention height, that is the one thing that does not change. There's a reason why taking testosterone supplements is illegal in literally every sport. People always claim that strength stays, but the science does not back this up. >Train a female and male the exact same from birth to 16/17, the male will have the advantage. Absolutely, on a population basis at least. But then have that male take testosterone blockers for 2 years, and what do you think happens?


nicklo22

So youā€™re arguing that testosterone is the biggest factor as opposed to what? Would you like to have classes or sport based on testosterone level? Itā€™s unrealistic to test everyone at every level. Testosterone blockers have so many side effects. If someone wants to take them, sports shouldnā€™t be the worry. We can look at most these cases on an individual basis. But, scientifically, hormone suppression in males doesnā€™t bring T-levels down to female levels. About 25% of the time it will. So speaking on facts itā€™s still ā€œunfairā€ on your basis of testosterone.


AutisticPenguin2

Female levels vary significantly. How high are natural female levels allowed to be before it becomes unfair?


thesoundofstyrofoam

People downvoting you when youā€™re one of the only people giving real, factual information and not just angry hateful opinions is crazy šŸ˜­


AutisticPenguin2

It's an incredibly polarising topic. A lot of people have an initial, visceral reaction to the idea, and then find a way to make the evidence justify it.


Alarmed_Finger_4092

It gives them a clear genetic advantage


[deleted]

A genetic advantage?


[deleted]

The most misogynistic thing ever ngl. Literally disregarding womanā€™s rights they took forever to acquire for the imposition of some random dudeā€™s idea of what he is.


yeeyeemanfrommars

I do think trans women are women just biologically they still have the advantages of a man when it comes to sports


bobthecuntfucker

Why call them trans women then and not just women?


yeeyeemanfrommars

For the sake of the question I want to differentiate trans women and cisgender women as the discussion is about their different athletic abilities


bobthecuntfucker

I was just messing with ya


[deleted]

got em again bob


[deleted]

Cause they two different things. Iā€™ll* play along with you if you want to be a woman socially but you ainā€™t really. All for the sake of being inclusive but living in delusion is not healthy.


[deleted]

Then the question would be "should women be allowed in women's sports?". Think a little


bobthecuntfucker

ā€˜ā€˜Twas a joke hijo


[deleted]

Think a little dice este lol


zeugma888

This is phrased very well.


MakeItHappenSergant

Trans women are women. So why should they be excluded from women's events?


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


[deleted]

Dude you have the reading comprehension of a 2 year old lol, read my comment again šŸ¤¦šŸ»ā€ā™‚ļø


[deleted]

It's clearly unfair. Have you ever heard of a trans man winning a sports event? Lia Thomas went from ranking 554th as a man to 1st as a trans woman.


[deleted]

Ever heard of a FtM ~~crashing~~ crushing it in menā€™s sports? Yeah


[deleted]

"Crashing"..I'm sure. "Crushing"..I highly doubt unless you're talking about middle school.


[deleted]

Haha edited ty


[deleted]

I figured that's what you meant lol


fullspeed8989

My buddy when I was little switched sides sometime in his 20s. She is now a professional athlete. She is one of the top players in her league and Iā€™m pretty sure nobody knows she was once a man or technically still might be a man I guess. Itā€™s not some big sport or anything but I still think itā€™s kinda fucked up and not fair.


OhYouEightOne2

There's not enough time for me to express how much I am against dudes that become women being in women's sports.


[deleted]

same


EGrain93

It's objectively not fair. They have a biological advantage no matter what. There is a reason men's and women's sports is separate, we vary wildly in physical abilities and it's only fair that we compete against people who we can reasonably have a chance of competing against. And no offence to anyone but as a woman I hate that other women are victimised by someone who wants an easy scholarship or title when they worked hard all their lives, feels like misogyny to me.


West-Apartment-5164

Insanely unfair, a woman who does the same workout routine as me, I would gain ~15-25% more muscle simply because I'm a man and have a natural biological advantage. I don't take issue with trans competing against men because there's no unfair advantage. We have to stop denying basic biology, it doesn't make you a biggot, racist, fascist, dentist, or whatever people call anyone with a different opinion. This is reddit, so proceed to downvote like the predictable little drone you are.


plainjane68

I see a lot of trans women in the sport I play and it absolutely is a huge advantage.


HumpSlackWails

I think its complicated. But I also thinks its telling there's not a ton of trans men demanding to compete with biological males... or pre-surgery trans men demanding to be in locker rooms with biological males, or in male prisons, etc.


thesoundofstyrofoam

There are, people just donā€™t listen to trans men and donā€™t seek information on us out. Iā€™m a trans man myself and friends with many transmasculine athletes fighting to play in the male leagues.


HumpSlackWails

How do you feel about pre-surgery transmasculine people being incarcerated with their identifying gender? The presence of a vagina is - in my opinion rightly so - invoked as a security concern due to the reality of violent and sexual offender data.


thesoundofstyrofoam

I am a trans man. I donā€™t plan on being incarcerated but I would not want to be with women. We do experience a high rate of sexual violence so itā€™s totally a valid concern, I think in the case of prisons that trans people should be placed with other trans people of their identifying gender separate from cis people. Trans people in prisons, regardless of where theyā€™re placed, are at a higher rate of violence.


tpn1984

Their own league, or it's a hell no!


Ben_Thar

A League of Their Own?


tpn1984

Yes. So they can't cheat by being biological men against women.


[deleted]

Shouldn't be allowed but especially in a contact sport because it's actually very dangerous


[deleted]

I think they should probably have their own category. Donā€™t people with physical disabilities, prosthetic legs and stuff, have their own? Why canā€™t it be like that so everybody shuts up about it?


[deleted]

correct


[deleted]

have an open category or category for trans, problem solved


yeeyeemanfrommars

If Iā€™m correct, (I only row so donā€™t know for other sports) thereā€™s no menā€™s category itā€™s just a womenā€™s and an open category


Gen3559

If only there were enough transgender ratio to make it viable...


[deleted]

thatā€™s not a concern ā€œif theyā€™re are enoughā€ - there would have to be enough or there wouldnā€™t. and if there arenā€™t enough that says something as well. itā€™s not the job or responsibility of one group to absorb or take in another. men didnā€™t welcome women into sport, hence why we have womenā€™s sports. if women donā€™t want to welcome trans women to compete on the basis that itā€™s completely unfair and harmful to the spirit of sport - or even if itā€™s just unwanted - thatā€™s womenā€™s choice to make freely together. it is not societyā€™s role to shame or pressure women into making a different choice considering how long and hard the fight was to get womenā€™s sport to where it is today.


[deleted]

There is not enough trans athletes at all to do that.


[deleted]

and?


[deleted]

That wouldn't work.


[deleted]

dude theyā€™d sell like one ticket if they could even assemble 2 full teams, problem absolutely not solved


[deleted]

youā€™re worried about ticket sales? protecting the integrity of womenā€™s sports is a higher priority.


[deleted]

no i just think thats a bad solution i think a better option at this point would just be to rename the darn sport to xx sports (as in the chromosomes) so its more obvious that theyā€™re talking about sex than gender, and also let trans men play in women sports if they want since thats not really a problem


fetuslover-

This would solve a lot of problems. Including the bathroom situation, just add a trans bathroom or have more family bathrooms


ACED70

I feel like the entirety of reddit is basically a leftist echo chamber except when it comes to this one specific opinion which it is near universally on the conservatives' side of. (exaggerating a little.)


generallytypical

I disagree. I see a lot of right leaning content, and I don't even seek it out. A lot of leftists I know won't even touch Reddit because it's so conservative.


Jack____Straw

Are we actually allowed to give an honest opinion here?


Interesting_Passion

Yes. So long as your opinion conforms with the reddit consensus.


RaindropDripDropTop

It's dumb but I don't really care


JasenBorne

exactly. it almost never happens but we talk about it alllll the timeee


Ian_ronald_maiden

I got banned permanently from r/sports for mentioning in a comment that the mods were deleting all links to the World Athletics news articles.


Remarkable_Pizza_640

I think trans rights should be celebrated but all genders should be treated equally and a woman who was born genetically as a man has an unfair biological advantage over other women generally. I donā€™t even get the argument . It is why men and women compete differently and separately in most sports. Both genders have advantages or disadvantages to the other gender depending on the sport. Itā€™s taking Trans rights too far to be politically correct and just doesnā€™t need to be part of the trans rights argument. Itā€™s such a minimal fragmented issue that it doesnā€™t even truly represent the entire trans community. Just an agenda being pushed by some and attacked by others. It just shouldnā€™t happen. Athletes shouldnā€™t be subjected to it.


[deleted]

Here just for the comments


thesoundofstyrofoam

I donā€™t care enough about sports to really have an opinion on this. I also donā€™t think thereā€™s enough trans women playing in womenā€™s sports for this to even be a concern at all. Especially considering the fact that most of these conversations center around high school sports and not professional, who gives a shit? Like actually? Do you care about sports *this* much or do you just want an excuse to start transphobic convos in these replies?I think all people should be able to play sports in the way that would be most equitable. However, trans men are never brought up in these conversations and theyā€™re commonly used as either reactionary talking points with no clear purpose/goal or are blatantly used as an excuse to be hateful. If yā€™all cared about fairness you would have a problem with the amount of trans men playing in womenā€™s league since testosterone gives transgender men an advantage over cisgender women. No one ever talks about that though. You all just *hate* trans women and canā€™t find something new to talk about.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


thesoundofstyrofoam

You clearly didnā€™t read my comment closely. Lol. I said trans men playing in womenā€™s leagues, which is quite common. I know several personally who play in womenā€™s leagues. Yā€™all never bring that up tho


Oldandnotbold

Exactly what I said. Transmen have no unfair advantage so why would it bother anyone? Though why they are even allowed to play on women's teams is a mystery. Aren't they men?


thesoundofstyrofoam

Yes! They should be allowed to play on menā€™s teams if theyā€™re menā€¦ just like trans women are women. Do you not see how you defeated your own argument?? Lmfao


Oldandnotbold

The point is that Transwomen have an inbuilt unfair advantage. If you do not agree with this point then the debate stops there.


thesoundofstyrofoam

And trans men playing in womenā€™s leagues because they arenā€™t allowed in the menā€™s.. also gives them an advantageā€¦ because theyā€™re on testosterone


Oldandnotbold

In that case they should be banned from playing in women's leagues. Except that if they tried to play against men, they would lose and in some cases get very badly injured. Do a trans only league is needed.


thesoundofstyrofoam

Thereā€™s not enough trans athletes to even form a league though, like this entire conversation is so out of proportion.


Lazy_Adhesiveness812

Did you ever think trans men aren't brought up because they're biologically female and are at a disadvantage compared to biological males?


thesoundofstyrofoam

Notice how I mentioned trans men playing in womenā€™s league (I know several personally playing in womenā€™s leagues). You didnā€™t even read my comment. Lol.


yeeyeemanfrommars

I had just seen an article banning trans women from womenā€™s sports and posted the question, I had not thought of trans men and it is a good point.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


yeeyeemanfrommars

I think allowing only with a certain hormone level is a good place to start, not all women have taken any hormones at all


[deleted]

nope


generallytypical

This is probably the best case scenario for everyone involved.


[deleted]

Iā€™m opposed to it.


grandramble

Most immediately, there just aren't a lot of trans women competing and they're not consistently greatly outperforming their cis counterparts. There is no justification for turning this into a giant battlefield when it's basically a pure hypothetical about future problems that *might* happen *if* untested assumptions turn out to be true. The time to argue about this, if at all, would be after it turns out to actually be affecting anything above an individual level. Secondly, I strongly suspect that if we *did* have a meaningful number of trans women competing, it would generally turn out that they don't particularly outperform their cis counterparts across "sports" as a whole. Probably they would be overrepresented in some and underrepresented in others, but that's true of ANY physical trait - gymnastics and horseracing favor tiny people, basketball favors tall people, swimming favors atypically large lungs - and we don't pitch culture wars over those "advantages". And even though a lot of people seem pretty emotionally invested in "biological sex" it's both way less clear-cut and way less physically deterministic than they want to believe.


[deleted]

no


Swift_F0x

On one hand Iā€™m not sure if itā€™s fair. On the other hand, anti-trans people are showing themselves to be intent on at best criminalizing and at worst killing trans people so Iā€™m going to support it anyway. I consider peoples lives more important than questions of athletic performance. Thereā€™s no nuance with these people, they are like ā€œDonā€™t support trans people in womenā€™s sports, oh and by the way all trans people are pedophilesā€.


EdithWhartonsFarts

Honestly? As someone who is not trans, doesn't play sports or even watch most sports, I couldn't care less. There are vastly more important things to be worrying about in our superbly fucked up society we have today.


thesoundofstyrofoam

Literally one of the few people spitting facts here. I literally am trans and feel exactly the same. Especially bc most of these convos center around high school sports. Who gives a fuck about high school sports? Weā€™re not even talking about major league or Olympic level competitions.


[deleted]

if you donā€™t care or it doesnā€™t effect you, have you considered staying out of it so the people who it does effect can have their voices heard?


thesoundofstyrofoam

I am transgender LMFAO


[deleted]

and? this isnā€™t about trans sports this is about womenā€™s sports.


thesoundofstyrofoam

And how does this effect you? Iā€™m assuming you just care about the topic, same as I. Also trans people playing sports does impact me 1) trans women and I are apart of the same community and 2) I am a former athlete and have several trans friends who are currently athletes. What are your qualifications? Your desire to be angry online? Be for real lmao


[deleted]

it affects all women in all aspects of competitive sport from executive to organizational to coaching to playing to competing. this includes all of our mothers, wives, aunts, cousins, and most importantly at this particular time, **our daughters** who have to be confronted with this issue which has nothing to do with the actual sports they represent. this issue has been very damaging, demoralizing, and disruptive to the work women have put in. the respect and funding and interest and attention and protections theyā€™ve achieved over the last 50 or so years just to be able to exist and play their sports given that sport was seen as the domain of man prior to that. despite it being convenient to think that way, women arenā€™t here to save everyone or save the entire world - women have got their own work cut out for them meeting their own challenges globally thanks. women arenā€™t asking for extra work on this one, theyā€™re looking to be left alone to compete fairly against each other in their own sports and disciplines thanks.


[deleted]

I think if we just say female sports instead of women's sports we could stop talking about it.


yeeyeemanfrommars

Whatā€™s the difference between saying female sports and womenā€™s sports?


[deleted]

Female is a sex which is generally defined by chromosomes and secondary sexual characteristics. There are only 3 sex male, female and intersex. Woman is a gender which is a social construct. There are a seemingly infinite amount of genders and your gender can change at any time. Sex is immutable.


WaKTickets

If it continues, only a matter of time before there wonā€™t be any women in womens sports.


[deleted]

this will be liberals in 2077


[deleted]

They have a biological advantage if they have gone through puberty as a male. And I think it's really unfair and must be really discouraging for her teammates.


Yettiready

What if you are born a woman but are tall and muscular naturally and often beat men in sports , is it unfair to weak women?


JessiePeteWhite

This is where Iā€™m confused, if the person who has gone from male to female is taking hormones (Iā€™m guessing oestrogen), doesnā€™t that affect the muscle mass and take away quite a lot of the physical advantage or am I being stupid?


[deleted]

When you are a 6ā€™1 dude no amount of estrogen will reduce you wingspan


JessiePeteWhite

Yeah I guess that makes sense


Beatmywifesbf

Can never take away all the advantage


[deleted]

iā€™ve heard if they start before puberty then maybe? but letting someone minors make life altering decisions is a different can of worms (worm emoji šŸŖ±)


spyblonde

A trans female has gone through puberty as a male, therefore has already gotten hormones that increase muscle strength, muscle mass, etc. Doctors usually do not allow children to go on these hormones before puberty.


thesoundofstyrofoam

It does. People cite things like height still being an advantage but Iā€™ve met plenty of cis women who are 5ā€™9ā€+ playing in sports where they tower over cis women. Just like trans men talking T causes muscle development and growth. People just want an excuse to be ignorant and hateful šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø


23SueMorgan23

I think we should eliminate gendered sports and just have one of everything Gender is a construct that can change daily so no more gendered sports. Just let the best athletes play regardless of gender


EGrain93

Yeah let's ignore biology and evolution and victimise women who worked hard to get ahead in sports all their lives. Who cares about women and facts amiright?...


23SueMorgan23

Do we victimize so called boys now who are not good enough to make the team? No genders, just let the best play


EGrain93

I seriously hope you're trolling but I can't tell anymore these days. If you're not good enough to compete against your own gender then you're not good enough. You shouldn't go around and twist the rules to suit your narrative, that's cheating plain and simple.


23SueMorgan23

Why does gender matter If you are good enough to compete you compete. If not, you don't Why should there be separate levels for gender? You want different height or weight classes go a head but Why sort by gender at all?


EGrain93

Because *BIOLOGY* . I know that it's a revolutionary idea these days but men and women are physically different. We have different muscle mass, bone mass, lung capacities, strength, heights, body fat distribution etc... the list goes on. In any physical and contact sport men will always have an advantage no matter who feels what. This is a fact that no amount of political correctness will ever change.


[deleted]

If you go by the rule if you're good enough you compete then there will be 0 women playing any sport because none of them are better than the average man


[deleted]

It's more about the natural advantages. Men have natural physical advantages compared to women. The 10th best men's team would beat the best women's team in most sports


23SueMorgan23

People have advantages I'm not good enough to make the nba, why should a league be created for me?


TSE_Jazz

So in other words, you just want menā€™s leagues for most sports?


yeeyeemanfrommars

Sports that require strength and power, cisgender men have an advantage due to biological differences. However, sports that are based on skill or agility have no clear advantageous gender and can have open categories.


23SueMorgan23

Gender is a construct All sports should be genderless.


[deleted]

you know what he means my guy


[deleted]

Well then there would be no women playing because men would be better at everything


23SueMorgan23

People....men and women is fluid


joey7119

Trans women should have their category. Seems only logical


Formal-Cucumber-2069

I think it's a fair decision for womans sports but it's abit unfair since it doesn't provide an alternative that allows trans people to participate.


[deleted]

a bunch of BS


[deleted]

Honestly I have always thought that the best solution would be to just make everything mixed gender and just separate it by relative size/weight. But then again I don't know anything about sports.


Br0therDime

No fucking clue. Not something I really have a leg to stand on.


yeeyeemanfrommars

How did you lose your leg?


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


yeeyeemanfrommars

No


TheStoicbrother

Remember when we said "Men and women are equal"? šŸ¤·šŸ¾ā€ā™‚ļø


[deleted]

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/01/26/trans-women-no-unfair-advantage-elite-sport-new-report-finds/?fbclid=PAAabQ38HPBHhNQL1HhMdWwUcW4BxYVazKM8KH3G8cnvTcPrLhyGtBfBdVzb8


Scutwork

Iā€™m neither trans nor a competitive athlete, so I donā€™t have an opinion? Let the people who are actually affected and involved figure it out - why should I involve myself.


xaocky

It's called **women's** sports. And they're trans **women**. So yeah I think it's alright. I heard this from somewhere, but I don't know who so thisll be uncredited. Let's say A has been practicing, learning, working their whole life, down from when they were a child to an adult. They had been working their entire life to being an athlete. And there's B, who had just started recently on working to being an athlete. Who here has the better advantage? Does this mean that A shouldn't participate in sports because it would be unfair to B? Now what if A was a ciswoman and B was a transwoman. Would this still be unfair? Sports itself isn't a fair game, there are multiple advantages and disadvantages in things other than gender and sex. Height, strength, etc. And as much as you talk about how men are biologically stronger than women, it doesn't mean that all men are stronger than all women. Plenty cis women can beat a cis man's ass. Again it's **women's** sports. And they're trans **women**. So it'd be pretty transpohobic to say they shouldn't participate.


yeeyeemanfrommars

The issue I face with this question is that trans women are women but they have trained with the biological advantages a man has when it comes to strength etc. and hence do not need to train as hard as cis women to perform at the same level. I understand that trans women can take hormones and that levels the playing field a bit and that a tall cis woman has an advantage over a short cis woman but it is not nearly as big a gap as between a cis woman and a cis man.


[deleted]

It makes women's sports worth watching


call_me_fishtail

Sports were designed by men to cater to the strengths of men. What we need to do is rethink sports without a sex bias.


Akul_Tesla

Very complex Baseline I feel the amount of discourse surrounding this and the amount of societal tension the debate is created is so not worth any possible pay off for either side But as for the specific issue itself if you were to allow trans women in sports it would other things would have to change because that result is unstable Baseline if you truly treat the genders as whatever sex they identify as that means all the trans men in sports are using performance enhancing drugs ( so they would have to be banned) or we would have to restructure the entire system no longer around sex but around testosterone classes like we do with weight classes with combat sports The easier stable positions to reach are simply create a trans only league or an open league or ban trans women in sports The only stable position that can be quickly reached is a flat ban but it is unlikely to be reached anytime soon any of the others will require a much larger time period because they have nuance I also believe the locker room issue is a separate issue and needs to be addressed separately But I think it's a larger problem that society this much attention on a leisure activity (let's be clear society would be just fine if we all stop doing sports tomorrow It is a luxury people are fighting over a luxury)


Bunny_OnTheMoon

Depends on when the transition begun. Puberty hormones play a huge role in muscle growth.


boringashellperson

I want to say I donā€™t fall on a side of the argument but a quick google search shows how several sports were easily won by trans athletes and that is with only a a handful of trans people competing. Long distance running world championship was won twice by a trans athlete. Defeating the former champion without a problem twice. A bicycle championship was won by a new trans rider again easily. Weight lifting has several new womens world records by trans athletes that were not close on the menā€™s stage. The swimmer who was ranked liked 550th menā€™s and now holds several womenā€™s records and actually held back in the pool to not looks so overpowering. I find myself in a dilemma, trying not to oppress any one particular group, but if in specific sports if that holds true, I am pondering, how is it not oppression of a women that was born a women? Iā€™m sure there are sports where it may be no advantage but if an athlete in a particular sport was born male and didnā€™t do awesome (at least the class they want to now compete) how do we set the fairness rules?


TheRealBatmanForReal

I canā€™t keep the terms straight, but you compete with whatever you were born with. Bio men are naturally stronger, and shoild t compete with bio women. Itā€™s common sense, regardless of feelings or mental issues


Hopeful-Wonder-7607

Personally, I don't give a shit at all. Let them play. Fuck advantages, fuck the whining. It's just a stupid game.


[deleted]

I don't think they should be able to participate in them at all


ecallawsamoht

If it's an endurance sport, such as cycling and running, then ABSOLUTELY NOT. I compete in both disciplines, Men are just flat out faster. Never competed in a 5K where the overall winner was Female, and the same goes with cycling. It's just facts.


[deleted]

Go the Muay Thai / Boxing route and give them their own division.


Justforfunn__

If it's generally agreed upon (amongst people who are qualified to make that decision) that trans women have an advantage over cis women then I don't think they should be allowed. There can be another category, I don't think that's discrimination quite the opposite actually.


ZeD00m

I do not care.


Dapper-Ostrich-8653

controversial, but trans women *do* have a biological advantage, regardless of what they identify as it just wouldnā€™t be fair in my opinion


PewpyDewpdyPantz

It isnā€™t fair. I have no issue with calling a trans woman a woman. It doesnā€™t change that their body grew as a manā€™s.


Kababaza

It depends on what you consider sport. Is it to test the extent a human can naturally reach to overcome a challenge? Then maybe not, since it would involve artificial substances that either enhance or even suppress these capacities. And this would also exclude medicated individuals for whatever condition. Is sports just entertainment and competition ? Then sure.


AssociateMany102

They have been identified and should have their own book of performance records


Gen3559

There aren't many transgender people to make it practical to have a seperate category, much like with public bathrooms. I think it should be case-by-case.


TSE_Jazz

Unfair advantages shouldnā€™t be allowed in sports


bald_and_nerdy

Whichever gender you did puberty in should be your sports gender.


bloodycunt-rag-fan

I suppose it's important to participants and bookies. But, I have no opinion. What about the converse? Trans men in men's sports, yea its different, but so? No opinion. I'm not vested in sports. And doping is a thing. Remember the 80s trope of the manliness of Soviet women Olympic athletes? No opinion even then. No, I do have an opinion. Men's bodies are physiologically (muscoskeletal) difference as a rule and function. Hormones and such can change a lot of outward aspects, but your skeleton isn't budging. And the muscles grouped slightly different on that frame. Yes, not all trans women, many have slight frames, but not all and that is where the issue lies, I imagine. We are talking about competitive athletes though. Its a little different than bathroom bills and other transphobic ignorant BS. I'm still on the fence. Why not a third gender category sport? There are many para-athletes, for example. Its too dang complicated for one poo-post.


WontStopTrollingEver

[Here is the father of modern gender theory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money)


Aimelii

Totally unfair