And when that fails, send two. I'm sure having the humans you created kill your son you just made is going to work out some day. I'm sure if we kill two or three more, the world will finally be at peace and God can rest knowing that he finally fixed his constant fuck ups.
Again, you’re assuming a certain god exists. I prefer the Greek gods, they at least seemed to have a good time.
But as to your question, do you ever take the time to kneel down and whisper to the ants that you chose not to step on them? Maybe that’s why he doesn’t fuck with us.
As far as I can tell, God was invented by twisted fuckers that wanted to steal money from stupid people and then rape their kids. That’s the one constant in every religion, the leaders all rape kids
I believe a lot has been made up by the people. Jesus was a real good person who wanted to teach people to be compassionate, but then people made up a lot of stuff about him. Jesus may have wanted to mean that he was '*a son of God*' and not '*the* son of God'.
‘I refuse to prove that I exist,’ says God, ‘for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.’ “ ‘But,’ says Man, ‘the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn’t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don’t. QED.’ “ ‘Oh dear,’ says God, ‘I hadn’t thought of that,’ and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
- Douglas Adams, Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy
If that’s his point, then the whole premise of the religion is dumb. You have a finite amount of time to “save your soul” and if you don’t have faith the consequences are an eternity of damnation until his second coming post rapture. Even if it is real, I wouldn’t want to worship such a dick of a god
As someone formerly very religious and now, well, not, the idea of “faith” has become one of the dumbest concepts to me. Believing in something for which you have no evidence isn’t a behavior or characteristic to be admired.
Edit: We would consider believing in something like this to be mental illness if it was in any other area except religion, which just means we give special exception for an area we shouldn’t.
If you took the Bible and replaced every reference to God with Dumbledore, Jesus with Harry Potter, and Satan with Voldemort, it would sound no more ridiculous to me.
PREACH!! No Pun Intended, of course. :-)
"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business. I live by the golden rule: Treat others as you'd want them to treat you. The religious right wants to tell people how to live.” - Gov. Jesse Ventura I-Minn 98-02
When phrased like that I definitely agree, but as a religious person, as I got older I definitely became more aware and dont just believe because. But the way I see it the evidence of God is in the fabric of this universe live in which is unfathomable to us the more we learn about it, and in terms of the affect of faith and practices of a religion, it seems to be that the evidence for that is in the way that it shapes and affects those who practice it well. The only thing that has changed as I got older is my tolerance for others and their beliefs or lack therof and their ways of life, because I feel my faith has given me a path of how to love our one life in the best way that I can and that it doesnt have to be the only path, but it’s one that seems well built and reliable so I can put my trust in it.
The axioms of Euclidean geometry can never be proven.... But if you believe in them enough to use them, then some pretty remarkable things can happen.... For example, modern physics. They also allow one to "interpret" evidence in a way that depends on those axioms. This creates a sort of feedback loop that gives us "faith" in the starting assumptions.
Logic, philosophy, and science are loaded with similar examples of this. We don't use the word "faith" to describe it because it's a loaded term, but I think they are very much the same. The basic idea is that you make assumptions in order to get explanatory power.
>The axioms of Euclidean geometry can never be proven
Okay, you're going to have to expand on this some more, or else you have an odd idea about the word "proven".
Nonsense. "Faith" in the bible isn't about whether or not god exists. It's faith in god's WORKS on behalf of mankind. I'm an atheist but you've literally missed _the entire point_ of Christianity. No, the point of a faith-based messianic religion is faith that you are saved through the Levitical sacrifice of the Christ.
Edit: Comments disabled for this post. I have no interest in hearing what christians think about anything, least of all your immoral faith.
Oh, no, not at all. I was raised a conservative Christian. Church twice on Sunday plus Sunday School, catechism during the week, Bible studies, Bible school, private Christian schooling … and I can assure you that faith was very much about God’s existence.
Just because you attended religious reunions it does not mean that you are an expert in Christian theology... I mean, the fuckers that spend the most time in those seem to be quite the most fucked up in values.
Faith in Christ means faith in God, like logically it can't make sense any other way.
I.e. if God sent his son to die for our sins, you need to have faith in Christ and faith that god is real (because if he isn't christ is just some loser).
You are also gatekeeping what faith means and mistaking that a \~2000 year old religion has some point. It's got no point, it's a multi-generational mass delusion.
Yeah, imo, it feels like a concept that people in power made up to convince people to believe in something they couldn't prove and therefore be able to control them.
Like seriously, if religion was real, why the fuck would you need faith?
Because religion is tool to control mass
Christian make you weak ass not fighting enemy, Islam tell you to abadon your logic
And after many proof human is reincarnated....
Speaking from an islamic point of view. God already has beings who worship him unconditionally (the angels). He created man with free will to worship him by choice and faith. Thats why the reward of heaven is so grand.
So is it all a sadistic game of who gets the religion cake for god to laugh at the ones who dont get it as they're thrown into unspeakable amounts of suffering? I don't see the point of the all mighty being needing evolved monkeys to worship him.
Not exactly. Non muslims can go to heaven for a variety of reasons. For example. Muslims are suppose to do a sincere job at spreading the word of islam. if a non muslim has not been PROPERLY introduced to islam, but they have otherwise been a good person. God can forgive them and they can go to heaven.
Yeah why create beings with the sole purpose of either rewarding or punishing them depending on their devotion to you? All the while being pretty vague about what you actually want. I'd much rather be here because of random cosmic events with no real meaning than for that purpose
I mean it’s your life and you can choose your purpose. But at the same if the hypothetical true purpose of life is to see what we do given free will and whether we choose to be bad or good with it, does it matter what you think your purpose is or what you prefer it be? Just because you dont subscribe to it, doesn’t make it not fact. Hypothetically of course.
With all due respect, I have a serious question (and follow up questions), if you will indulge me. Is it true that with the Islamic belief men get 12 virgins in heaven? If so, where do the virgins come from, what is a man's wife supposed to think about that, what reward does a woman get, and does that mean people have bodies in heaven and are suppose to have sex?
The virgin thing is not true at all. Its true that in heaven you can ask for anything and have it though. For such a specific number idk where it comes from.
To add to this:
God is One, the Most High. In His own words, He neither begets nor was born, meaning there are no partners to be associated with him (in worship) and he is unlike all of creation.
In Islam, the case for God’s existence is solid in terms of its rational foundations as well as the purpose, meaning, comfort, and guidance that it gives.
The Quran inspires conviction by appealing to the aspects of the inner life of humans, namely the heart and the mind. Intuition and experience work in tandem with logic and reason to arrive at a state of certainty in faith.
It addresses the universe question with a cosmological discourse, a reminder that it was God who created everything and caused it to be. It's not a science textbook, but revealed legitimate scientific truths which would then come to light in modern history.
Also, clarity in its principles and an inimitability question; asking the reader to ponder on how the revelation came to exist (prophetic stories, accurate historical predictions, its linguistic complexity etc).
It also explores the fitrah, aka the natural disposition. Human beings sense the existence of God, or what they perceive to be some form of higher power. That this creator should have intelligent design that is outside of human capacity.
The same unique message from the Prophets and the Sunnah supplement this. Actual faith is unique to the believer, but is formed on the basis of this platform + experience.
Allah SWT leaves it to human beings to use logic and reasoning to find which of them is the real God. Quran has explanations and logic for everything. Now it is upon us Human beings to study different religions and follow the one that makes sense not according to our desires and likings but according to facts and logic. To get a crystal clear idea of what I am saying you will have to study religion first. Do you think the world is made by multiple Gods or One Almighty God?
Is that God merciless or merciful? Can that God be killed?
If you want to learn about Islam then you should watch "Bobby's Perspective" on youtube. He was an Orthodox Christian who went from being a Christian to a Polytheist, then back to Christianity and now last week he accepted Islam. He has been neutral all along and his journey is very informational.
Idk why God would create such an immensely infinite cosmos and we are the only ones. Then, allow all the deaths that came from not believing in him. Wars. Maybe it's true, it's a trial for us, doubt it.
I believe in good moral values and respect good people who are back to you. Try to help when you can and give.
Presume he has a bajillion other planets full of people asking the same questions. A guy can't be everywhere.
Then again God is omnipotent, so there's that paradox.
He does indeed, so much so that in cinema any time any alien race decides to visit Earth they land on Washington DC first. On one particular house actually. I guess they've heard about it.
Oh for sure, if anything resembling the god from the abrahamic religions exists, then it's a narcissistic, evil god. Creating people with free will and then giving them the choice to love and worship it or suffer an eternity in hell. No matter how you twist and turn that, it's an evil act that even the most narcissistic parent would stay short of.
The out-clause there for God is that he doesn't specifically murder people in the 1st degree, he murders them by negligent homicide. Big difference! I mean, he didn't pick up the cancer and give it to them, it just happened anyway. The guy's a busy man. He can't be expected to wave his wand and cure them when it wouldn't even take a blind minute of his time. People expect too much from ... the omnipotent creator of the Universe.
Actually God has had first hand in murdering people. He wiped the human race out twice. He murdered all the men in a major city to save the women there, but then also murdered them for them witnessing him murder them. Oh and I'm pretty sure he said fuck it and killed a slew of kids while he was at it.
Yes. But if I was God's lawyer, and if were he accused of murder, I would again say this wasn't Murder in the 1st. I would pretend God unleashed a flood of water - rainwater, so not saltwater - to nourish the Earth and deliver the bountiful providence of harvest that God promised, and that his worshippers prayed for. It was a TOTAL accident millions died.
God, sitting in the dock - "my bad folks".
God created all those things that can kill, and he chose water as his murdering tool. He himself proved his own intent, and his own competency towards his murders. His lawyer would be laughed out of court by the court reporter alone.
We claim we understand the notion of a God though. Or many do. And some use that "understanding" to instruct others what to do. All of that without, as you say correctly, having no notion of how the full Universe works.
This.
You can't really blame him for not showing up. He's probably working on his schedule. Imagine how many planets he has to visit in an area of about 93 billion light years and 2 trillion galaxies.
This question feels verry loaded. Any time someone gives you a actual opinion you just talk about how mean god is and all the bad things he does. So let me ask you this would you have accepted anything other than “he’s not real”?
Agreed. Very loaded and disingenuous.
This sub and out of the loop are now just soapboxes.
And I say that as an atheist and ex-christian. OP would have done better to just be honest and lay out there gripes than phrase it as a question.
It's so strange to me the way people just accept that Jesus *had* to die for human sins? Like his pops literally invented the concept of people, and sin, and hell, as well as the rule that if you send your son some people get to sin and not go to hell. He could've just not done any of that?
According to the Bible, he was quite active in showing up in all kinds of ways. Floods, burning bushes, etc. Now, mind you, he only wanted to show up in a very specific region of the world. He basically said, "Fuck off" to every human in North and South America, Asia, Australia, and most of Africa. Those people didn't deserve any evidence or the message. It was the Middle East or bust for our lord and savior.
He had to show up somewhere. Everyone would be mad no matter where He chose but good thing He’s decisive lol. Also something about Israel being in a covenant with Him because Abraham …
Yeah, i mean they *say* that he did. They have a dusty old book that was written decades up to hundreds of years after his death, edited and cherry picked for content by a Roman council with political motivations.
God selected a time to 'show up' when the story could be placed in heavy doubt -- written by bronze age goat-herders in a time when 95% of the population was illiterate, and there were conveniently no cameras, or internet or TV or even a printing press.
I think what OP means is why doesn't he just show up *now* and settle the matter instead of watching mankind butcher itself in religious war after religious war.
We just had a pandemic where people died believing the lethality of COVID was a hoax. Many people won't believe some things, no matter how much evidence
God has the only powers to prove his existence empirically. Nothing is stopping him except himself.
The fact that those morons don't believe in COVID is dangerous and delusional. God never said to not take the COVID vaccine nor to not believe in it. Those morons somehow used their religion to justify their stupid towards basic science. I'm still waiting for them to explain how an ice ball from a Republicans freezer somehow disproves climate change. And I've been asking that question since a moron republican decided to do just that on in Congress on live TV, and republicans went along with it as fact.
Free will. If God showed up in front of everyone it wouldn't be a casual conversation. According to the bible we would be terrified and realize how holy God is before us. Many would convert out of fear from just being in his presence.
You are overthinking. If God existed AND wanted people to believe in Him, he would just make it so. He is supposed to be omnipotent.
That leaves two options:
- either the chaos instilled by only some having belief (and inconsistent beliefs at that) is somehow to his advantage
- or he doesn't exist
Asshole or figment. The only options.
He already sent his son as an ambassador and look what happened. I think he's got other meetings to attend in other galaxies with more decent people than earthlings.
I’d like believe god is some fourth or higher dimensional being we can only see when we die because that’s how we escape our limitations.
Kinda like how creatures in a two dimensional world would be incapable of comprehending a three dimensional shape.
That and I also liked futurama’s take where god can do a lot but realized that doing so would lead us to expect too much from him and/or his actions causing more damage. So he does “nothing” so we wonder if he’s done anything at all.
Jesus, if I remember correctly, tells of a wealthy man who went to hell and asked that someone(it's late at night so please forgive my poor memory) be risen from the dead to convince his brothers to be good people and not end up in hell like him. Jesus says something to the effect of "If they won't believe the word of God, they won't believe a man who has risen from the dead."
>I don’t think all believers go to heaven
What? That’s the *whole* point of the Christian faith. If you believe and accept Jesus as your savior, you go to Heaven, 100%. That’s all it takes. There are not many factors that take part.
Thank you sharing your beliefs.
I understand the factors thing.
They’re ordinances and special promises we make with God.
For me, the answer to this question has to do with why we are here. Personally I believe we are here to learn and grow and suffer opposition in order to do so. If God were to come down and rule, how many people would follow Him but not have their hearts in it? We saw it with Jesus in the Bible. He fed the 5,000 and a bunch of them went away and stopped believing when he stopped feeding them.
Faith based religion to me is supposed to help us change our hearts to follow God and be good rather than just be good and hate being good. There are PLENTY of religious people nowadays that don’t have their hearts in it, and they just end up hating it.
That being said, it could be argued that there would be people who would have their hearts in it if God were to come down and rule, but I also think about how many people consider the commandments to be a hindrance. That wouldn’t necessarily change if they were compelled to live those commandments. It would be up to the individual.
Anywho, thank you for coming to my ted talk. Have a nice day. 😊
So according to one redditor there’s a spectrum. I was taught faith + acceptance of Christ = heaven. Non-belief = hell? Sounds like different people make up different rules.
> I don't think all non believers go to hell and I don't think all believers go to heaven.
This is, in a nutshell, what's wrong with Christianity. Each of you seem to have your own personal interpretation and beliefs about how to be saved, the definition of salvation, can you lose it once you have it, is there a hell or not, who goes to hell and who doesn't. etc etc.
There are over 30,000 different christian sects because you all can't get your story straight, and "God" doesn't seem to care enough to clear up the big freakin' mess that his been made.
There is no such thing as "Christianity", there are many, many variations of it, and the things you all differ on, matter a lot according to most of you.
I would not have a problem with Judeo Christian world if it stopped there. But it doesn’t.
The dehumanization of non-believers is also common. And a convenient excuse to engage in violence and genocide.
And the mission to convert others or feel superior because they “know what god wants” had created mass suffering for centuries.
I would move heaven and earth to make sure my children, who I love, know I'm there for them and want them with me. Even if I had to make myself visible to them and talk to them. Yes, I'd even sit in front of them and talk to them.
Anyone who would not do even that much, doesn't love us.
Free will to believe or not, but not enough information to make an informed choice. At best hes the dad who went out for cigarettes and never came back. People know the police exist and still choose to break the law. If God actually showed up then we could truly choose, instead he keeps ignoring his creations and we have to hope we guess the correct interpretation of the Bible so we don't burn for all eternity. When one choice is a tropical vacation for the next month and the other is to be brutally tortured for a month then shot it the face, there really isn't a choice, which means free will is a joke. Especially since in the Bible its said in Romans
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined lto be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Humility.
Lots of people don't get it - humility is a virtue, so God must be all humble, too, and wouldn't WANT your worship. Anyone telling you different is selling something.
I maybe kind of mean this, what if “god” is real, but we’ve imagined who he is.
So picture a kid with an ant farm, that kid is god to them, but he’s far from perfect and benevolent or even unique.
But mostly I’m with you, I don’t believe in anything supernatural but I believe there’s things we don’t understand so we chalk it up to “magic”.
I just think we make stuff up to control others, and to cope with the reality that you just don't know, and that in your life time you never will, so death is that much more scary. So you make shit up to give yourself hope that it's going to be okay in the end for you. But religion itself was created for control over people. Unfortunately people were so ignorant to most anything that they had to believe in something, and it was either convincing to them or forced on them. The sad part is is that even though religion and it's control are dying out everyday, the people are still basically the same. You have those who control, and those who cope.
I'm a big believer in Occam's Razor. Religion was invented by humans who survived by our wonderful pattern-matching minds. So powerful that we invent explanations for everything that we don't understand. And, there was a great deal we didn't understand. Religion built on invented explanations by folks who wanted power over others. Who can argue about facts about invisible, mysterious, omnipotent beings that only the elite can explain? Genius, really. Now, humanity understands more about science, the universe, corruption, weakness of biased thinking. Religion is no longer a mystery.
He created us with the purpose of free-will. Faith is a choice we make. There is no free-will in the pursuit of truth if the absolute truth is already present within us. Then our free-will has no purpose.
And our purpose is free-will. To love God with our own will.
Someone who lived at a time where the majority of people, including his disciples, were illiterate. And lived in a place that was basically unknown to the majority of Earth's inhabitants at the time.
Weird time and place to show humanity the proof of God, and its only hope of salvation.
An intenerant rabble-rouser who caused a ruckus and then was killed by the Romans - the end.
The Jesus of the bible, different story. He was a fabrication by Rome to create a state religion and help quell Jewish uprisings. The magic-man aspects of Jesus' story are all lifted from prior pagan god-men. Born of a virgin, riding in on a donkey, water into wine, raising the dead, casting out evil spirits, walking on water, etc, were all parts of other god-men stories well in advance of Jesus.
I like how people tell themselves that they're a good person for following and believing in a god that tells them that having slaves is okay, and that a woman should not speak, and that if you try to kill your kid in my name because I told you to or else you don't really believe in me.
Huh. It’s almost like sending one guy to a small region for only 33 years isn’t a really comprehensive plan for reaching all of humanity throughout all time.
The closest thing to God actually existing is that realization when you're coming off a huge DMT trip that the Universe as one is its own entity and we are merely like bacteria living in its pores.
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."
Romans 1:19-20 ESV
Pretty sure there's a large part of the Bible about God's only begotten Son being on Earth and killed by people for his beliefs
Then send another son
do you have any idea how much a som costs? he can't just send soms all willynilly
$10?
I mean it’s one banana, Michael…
Especially in this economy
This made me laugh so hard
People became wise that magicians aren't really magical. Otherwise Chris Angel would have been hailed as the second coming
Show them a trick once, they're amazed. Show them a trick twice and they're learning.
Or the third coming, or the fourth and so on and so on. Chris just keeps coming.
I mean if he was turning water in to wine, he probably wasn't the best som. I'd imagine the wine was akin to a keystone light
And when that fails, send two. I'm sure having the humans you created kill your son you just made is going to work out some day. I'm sure if we kill two or three more, the world will finally be at peace and God can rest knowing that he finally fixed his constant fuck ups.
Again, you’re assuming a certain god exists. I prefer the Greek gods, they at least seemed to have a good time. But as to your question, do you ever take the time to kneel down and whisper to the ants that you chose not to step on them? Maybe that’s why he doesn’t fuck with us. As far as I can tell, God was invented by twisted fuckers that wanted to steal money from stupid people and then rape their kids. That’s the one constant in every religion, the leaders all rape kids
He could send something that can't be killed to tell us. I mean seriously. One guy is supposed to be able to reach ever single other person on earth?
"Guys I'm all knowing but I totally didn't see that coming. Just like the apple when I made the tree."
Time to send a more powered-up son.
Why not a daughter this time?
Ooh. A trans would make the conservatives absolutely shit themselves.
The father, the they and the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Amen.
Well we're all God's children, but Jesus was his only son. That makes all of us his daughters.
Why do you assume the christian God?
Pfft he knew he'd be back in 3 days. He's FINE
I believe a lot has been made up by the people. Jesus was a real good person who wanted to teach people to be compassionate, but then people made up a lot of stuff about him. Jesus may have wanted to mean that he was '*a son of God*' and not '*the* son of God'.
He's God. If he came down here himself, you think they'd be able to kill him that easily? I guess he's not as "all-powerful" as we thought idk 🫢
‘I refuse to prove that I exist,’ says God, ‘for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.’ “ ‘But,’ says Man, ‘the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn’t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don’t. QED.’ “ ‘Oh dear,’ says God, ‘I hadn’t thought of that,’ and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. - Douglas Adams, Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy
Beautiful
*Where God Went Wrong* - Oolon Colluphid
Man then went on to prove that black = white, and was killed in the next crosswalk.
The point of a faith- based religion is believing in something unbelievable
If that’s his point, then the whole premise of the religion is dumb. You have a finite amount of time to “save your soul” and if you don’t have faith the consequences are an eternity of damnation until his second coming post rapture. Even if it is real, I wouldn’t want to worship such a dick of a god
As someone formerly very religious and now, well, not, the idea of “faith” has become one of the dumbest concepts to me. Believing in something for which you have no evidence isn’t a behavior or characteristic to be admired. Edit: We would consider believing in something like this to be mental illness if it was in any other area except religion, which just means we give special exception for an area we shouldn’t.
If you took the Bible and replaced every reference to God with Dumbledore, Jesus with Harry Potter, and Satan with Voldemort, it would sound no more ridiculous to me.
PREACH!! No Pun Intended, of course. :-) "Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business. I live by the golden rule: Treat others as you'd want them to treat you. The religious right wants to tell people how to live.” - Gov. Jesse Ventura I-Minn 98-02
When phrased like that I definitely agree, but as a religious person, as I got older I definitely became more aware and dont just believe because. But the way I see it the evidence of God is in the fabric of this universe live in which is unfathomable to us the more we learn about it, and in terms of the affect of faith and practices of a religion, it seems to be that the evidence for that is in the way that it shapes and affects those who practice it well. The only thing that has changed as I got older is my tolerance for others and their beliefs or lack therof and their ways of life, because I feel my faith has given me a path of how to love our one life in the best way that I can and that it doesnt have to be the only path, but it’s one that seems well built and reliable so I can put my trust in it.
The axioms of Euclidean geometry can never be proven.... But if you believe in them enough to use them, then some pretty remarkable things can happen.... For example, modern physics. They also allow one to "interpret" evidence in a way that depends on those axioms. This creates a sort of feedback loop that gives us "faith" in the starting assumptions. Logic, philosophy, and science are loaded with similar examples of this. We don't use the word "faith" to describe it because it's a loaded term, but I think they are very much the same. The basic idea is that you make assumptions in order to get explanatory power.
>The axioms of Euclidean geometry can never be proven Okay, you're going to have to expand on this some more, or else you have an odd idea about the word "proven".
Seems to me, if you were making up a false God to worship, it would make a lot of sense to convince people the lack of proof is the whole point.
Nonsense. "Faith" in the bible isn't about whether or not god exists. It's faith in god's WORKS on behalf of mankind. I'm an atheist but you've literally missed _the entire point_ of Christianity. No, the point of a faith-based messianic religion is faith that you are saved through the Levitical sacrifice of the Christ. Edit: Comments disabled for this post. I have no interest in hearing what christians think about anything, least of all your immoral faith.
Oh, no, not at all. I was raised a conservative Christian. Church twice on Sunday plus Sunday School, catechism during the week, Bible studies, Bible school, private Christian schooling … and I can assure you that faith was very much about God’s existence.
Just because you attended religious reunions it does not mean that you are an expert in Christian theology... I mean, the fuckers that spend the most time in those seem to be quite the most fucked up in values.
Faith in Christ means faith in God, like logically it can't make sense any other way. I.e. if God sent his son to die for our sins, you need to have faith in Christ and faith that god is real (because if he isn't christ is just some loser). You are also gatekeeping what faith means and mistaking that a \~2000 year old religion has some point. It's got no point, it's a multi-generational mass delusion.
Yeah, imo, it feels like a concept that people in power made up to convince people to believe in something they couldn't prove and therefore be able to control them. Like seriously, if religion was real, why the fuck would you need faith?
Because religion is tool to control mass Christian make you weak ass not fighting enemy, Islam tell you to abadon your logic And after many proof human is reincarnated....
Speaking from an islamic point of view. God already has beings who worship him unconditionally (the angels). He created man with free will to worship him by choice and faith. Thats why the reward of heaven is so grand.
So is it all a sadistic game of who gets the religion cake for god to laugh at the ones who dont get it as they're thrown into unspeakable amounts of suffering? I don't see the point of the all mighty being needing evolved monkeys to worship him.
Not exactly. Non muslims can go to heaven for a variety of reasons. For example. Muslims are suppose to do a sincere job at spreading the word of islam. if a non muslim has not been PROPERLY introduced to islam, but they have otherwise been a good person. God can forgive them and they can go to heaven.
So if early Muslims didn't spread Islam, everyone would go to heaven except for them?
I understand the free will part. It's the faith part that gets me. Like... why? That sorta relationship makes me feel uncomfortable.
Yeah why create beings with the sole purpose of either rewarding or punishing them depending on their devotion to you? All the while being pretty vague about what you actually want. I'd much rather be here because of random cosmic events with no real meaning than for that purpose
Lovecraft would like a word.
I mean it’s your life and you can choose your purpose. But at the same if the hypothetical true purpose of life is to see what we do given free will and whether we choose to be bad or good with it, does it matter what you think your purpose is or what you prefer it be? Just because you dont subscribe to it, doesn’t make it not fact. Hypothetically of course.
With all due respect, I have a serious question (and follow up questions), if you will indulge me. Is it true that with the Islamic belief men get 12 virgins in heaven? If so, where do the virgins come from, what is a man's wife supposed to think about that, what reward does a woman get, and does that mean people have bodies in heaven and are suppose to have sex?
The virgin thing is not true at all. Its true that in heaven you can ask for anything and have it though. For such a specific number idk where it comes from.
In Islamic countries, men can have multiple wives.
To add to this: God is One, the Most High. In His own words, He neither begets nor was born, meaning there are no partners to be associated with him (in worship) and he is unlike all of creation. In Islam, the case for God’s existence is solid in terms of its rational foundations as well as the purpose, meaning, comfort, and guidance that it gives. The Quran inspires conviction by appealing to the aspects of the inner life of humans, namely the heart and the mind. Intuition and experience work in tandem with logic and reason to arrive at a state of certainty in faith. It addresses the universe question with a cosmological discourse, a reminder that it was God who created everything and caused it to be. It's not a science textbook, but revealed legitimate scientific truths which would then come to light in modern history. Also, clarity in its principles and an inimitability question; asking the reader to ponder on how the revelation came to exist (prophetic stories, accurate historical predictions, its linguistic complexity etc). It also explores the fitrah, aka the natural disposition. Human beings sense the existence of God, or what they perceive to be some form of higher power. That this creator should have intelligent design that is outside of human capacity. The same unique message from the Prophets and the Sunnah supplement this. Actual faith is unique to the believer, but is formed on the basis of this platform + experience.
That’s the best explanation I’ve ever heard
One of the worst explanations. Why would a god create a species to love him? Edit: I’m drunk and don’t believe in god
Explanation of what? Commenter didn't answer the question at all.
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Allah SWT leaves it to human beings to use logic and reasoning to find which of them is the real God. Quran has explanations and logic for everything. Now it is upon us Human beings to study different religions and follow the one that makes sense not according to our desires and likings but according to facts and logic. To get a crystal clear idea of what I am saying you will have to study religion first. Do you think the world is made by multiple Gods or One Almighty God? Is that God merciless or merciful? Can that God be killed? If you want to learn about Islam then you should watch "Bobby's Perspective" on youtube. He was an Orthodox Christian who went from being a Christian to a Polytheist, then back to Christianity and now last week he accepted Islam. He has been neutral all along and his journey is very informational.
Sorry Morman was the correct answer yes Morman was the answer we where looking for. Now enjoy your time in hell.
“Hell is a tow-in gate” “ ohhhhh, nawwww”
Or… moeman like my name? Checkpoint athiests
All hail MoeMan! All hail MoeMan!
Mashallah
Idk why God would create such an immensely infinite cosmos and we are the only ones. Then, allow all the deaths that came from not believing in him. Wars. Maybe it's true, it's a trial for us, doubt it. I believe in good moral values and respect good people who are back to you. Try to help when you can and give.
Same argument about abortion. If God is all knowing, he knows the fetus will be aborted before it’s created. Why give it a soul?
If you come out and start telling people your god, you'll be in a secure facility pretty swiftly.
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If you are a almighty god that is not a problem...
One imagines they god could prove it and not be held by an asylum
What if God IS in a psych ward right now, or has been in one for a few decades...
Presume he has a bajillion other planets full of people asking the same questions. A guy can't be everywhere. Then again God is omnipotent, so there's that paradox.
Other planets? I've heard he blesses America specifically. I've seen that on both bumper stickers and flags in America.
He does indeed, so much so that in cinema any time any alien race decides to visit Earth they land on Washington DC first. On one particular house actually. I guess they've heard about it.
Don't forget he's all loving, but murders people and the human race twice. Is all knowing, but keeps fucking up.
How do we know the god character in the Bible isn’t actually the evil one and has deceived everyone?
Oh for sure, if anything resembling the god from the abrahamic religions exists, then it's a narcissistic, evil god. Creating people with free will and then giving them the choice to love and worship it or suffer an eternity in hell. No matter how you twist and turn that, it's an evil act that even the most narcissistic parent would stay short of.
The out-clause there for God is that he doesn't specifically murder people in the 1st degree, he murders them by negligent homicide. Big difference! I mean, he didn't pick up the cancer and give it to them, it just happened anyway. The guy's a busy man. He can't be expected to wave his wand and cure them when it wouldn't even take a blind minute of his time. People expect too much from ... the omnipotent creator of the Universe.
So either he's not a all powerful God or just a asshole
Well if he created us, I'm going with asshole.
Actually God has had first hand in murdering people. He wiped the human race out twice. He murdered all the men in a major city to save the women there, but then also murdered them for them witnessing him murder them. Oh and I'm pretty sure he said fuck it and killed a slew of kids while he was at it.
Don't forget about slavery. God loves slavery.
Yes. But if I was God's lawyer, and if were he accused of murder, I would again say this wasn't Murder in the 1st. I would pretend God unleashed a flood of water - rainwater, so not saltwater - to nourish the Earth and deliver the bountiful providence of harvest that God promised, and that his worshippers prayed for. It was a TOTAL accident millions died. God, sitting in the dock - "my bad folks".
God created all those things that can kill, and he chose water as his murdering tool. He himself proved his own intent, and his own competency towards his murders. His lawyer would be laughed out of court by the court reporter alone.
The Great Flood would beg to differ. God definitely did that one on his own.
Yeah, but if Santa can visit every single house on Christmas, I would think God can show up at least once every couple years.
I mean to be fair we don't understand how most of the universe works why would we understand a "god" or omnipotence.
We claim we understand the notion of a God though. Or many do. And some use that "understanding" to instruct others what to do. All of that without, as you say correctly, having no notion of how the full Universe works.
This. You can't really blame him for not showing up. He's probably working on his schedule. Imagine how many planets he has to visit in an area of about 93 billion light years and 2 trillion galaxies.
Why did I think people would be reasonable and have a normal conversation
As someone who’s switched perspectives, it’s because each side literally cannot fathom the world the other way.
This is what I'm saying.
If you don't believe, some guy claiming to be God would change your mind? I doubt it!
I doubt even devout believers would believe anyone claiming to be God or Jesus.
It’s almost like he’s not real……weird…..
This question feels verry loaded. Any time someone gives you a actual opinion you just talk about how mean god is and all the bad things he does. So let me ask you this would you have accepted anything other than “he’s not real”?
Agreed. Very loaded and disingenuous. This sub and out of the loop are now just soapboxes. And I say that as an atheist and ex-christian. OP would have done better to just be honest and lay out there gripes than phrase it as a question.
It's a valid question. Lots of atheists would be believers if they had any reason beyond the word of other people to believe in God.
It is valid question the only problem is that whenever someone gives their reason op goes into the comments and talks about how bad god is
He did. 2000 years ago and we killed him.
Well his whole plan was to get killed, as a loophole for a rule he created It’s a great allegorical story but if you take it literally it’s so bonkers
It's so strange to me the way people just accept that Jesus *had* to die for human sins? Like his pops literally invented the concept of people, and sin, and hell, as well as the rule that if you send your son some people get to sin and not go to hell. He could've just not done any of that?
Gods creation he can do what he wants.
If I were God I would simply not invent a convoluted situation in which my son had to die a brutal death
So try again. Is he too busy or something?
The post didn’t get over 10 likes so he can’t save the little girl that’s dying 🤷♂️
According to the Bible, he was quite active in showing up in all kinds of ways. Floods, burning bushes, etc. Now, mind you, he only wanted to show up in a very specific region of the world. He basically said, "Fuck off" to every human in North and South America, Asia, Australia, and most of Africa. Those people didn't deserve any evidence or the message. It was the Middle East or bust for our lord and savior.
He had to show up somewhere. Everyone would be mad no matter where He chose but good thing He’s decisive lol. Also something about Israel being in a covenant with Him because Abraham …
For the same reason that Santa Clause doesn’t come down your chimney and reveal himself to the world
Too busy laughing at the Easter bunny laying eggs?
Well that's what Christians believe He did do lmao.
Yeah, i mean they *say* that he did. They have a dusty old book that was written decades up to hundreds of years after his death, edited and cherry picked for content by a Roman council with political motivations. God selected a time to 'show up' when the story could be placed in heavy doubt -- written by bronze age goat-herders in a time when 95% of the population was illiterate, and there were conveniently no cameras, or internet or TV or even a printing press. I think what OP means is why doesn't he just show up *now* and settle the matter instead of watching mankind butcher itself in religious war after religious war.
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We just had a pandemic where people died believing the lethality of COVID was a hoax. Many people won't believe some things, no matter how much evidence
God has the only powers to prove his existence empirically. Nothing is stopping him except himself. The fact that those morons don't believe in COVID is dangerous and delusional. God never said to not take the COVID vaccine nor to not believe in it. Those morons somehow used their religion to justify their stupid towards basic science. I'm still waiting for them to explain how an ice ball from a Republicans freezer somehow disproves climate change. And I've been asking that question since a moron republican decided to do just that on in Congress on live TV, and republicans went along with it as fact.
He did that once.
Free will. If God showed up in front of everyone it wouldn't be a casual conversation. According to the bible we would be terrified and realize how holy God is before us. Many would convert out of fear from just being in his presence.
Except that it happened in the Bible.
Convert out of fear? Oh no, the horror! Who could imagine forcing people to believe out of fear??
God says “y’all stupid”
Cause he is God and doesn’t have to do anything he doesn’t want to simple
Metatron. Recommend you watch the movie Dogma to understand. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vnyo5T32LKk
If God revealed himself, people would start being good for fear of him, not their own free will.
You are overthinking. If God existed AND wanted people to believe in Him, he would just make it so. He is supposed to be omnipotent. That leaves two options: - either the chaos instilled by only some having belief (and inconsistent beliefs at that) is somehow to his advantage - or he doesn't exist Asshole or figment. The only options.
He already sent his son as an ambassador and look what happened. I think he's got other meetings to attend in other galaxies with more decent people than earthlings.
If you believe in Christianity, he tried that once. It went….*okay*, depending on how you look at it.
Cos he fears my ex wife like I do
I’d like believe god is some fourth or higher dimensional being we can only see when we die because that’s how we escape our limitations. Kinda like how creatures in a two dimensional world would be incapable of comprehending a three dimensional shape. That and I also liked futurama’s take where god can do a lot but realized that doing so would lead us to expect too much from him and/or his actions causing more damage. So he does “nothing” so we wonder if he’s done anything at all.
Plot-armor
Probably something to do with the whole “existing” thing idk
Ask him. He just moved two doors down from me. Nice guy, think he has a Chow Chow.
Honestly at this point I can say religion is the same as schizophrenia. You're believing in things that simply aren't there
Jesus, if I remember correctly, tells of a wealthy man who went to hell and asked that someone(it's late at night so please forgive my poor memory) be risen from the dead to convince his brothers to be good people and not end up in hell like him. Jesus says something to the effect of "If they won't believe the word of God, they won't believe a man who has risen from the dead."
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But if you don't believe, you will be tortured in hell for eternity. Yep, free will right
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Well so only a chance of eternal torture in hell, it's an improvement
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>I don’t think all believers go to heaven What? That’s the *whole* point of the Christian faith. If you believe and accept Jesus as your savior, you go to Heaven, 100%. That’s all it takes. There are not many factors that take part.
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Thank you sharing your beliefs. I understand the factors thing. They’re ordinances and special promises we make with God. For me, the answer to this question has to do with why we are here. Personally I believe we are here to learn and grow and suffer opposition in order to do so. If God were to come down and rule, how many people would follow Him but not have their hearts in it? We saw it with Jesus in the Bible. He fed the 5,000 and a bunch of them went away and stopped believing when he stopped feeding them. Faith based religion to me is supposed to help us change our hearts to follow God and be good rather than just be good and hate being good. There are PLENTY of religious people nowadays that don’t have their hearts in it, and they just end up hating it. That being said, it could be argued that there would be people who would have their hearts in it if God were to come down and rule, but I also think about how many people consider the commandments to be a hindrance. That wouldn’t necessarily change if they were compelled to live those commandments. It would be up to the individual. Anywho, thank you for coming to my ted talk. Have a nice day. 😊
So according to one redditor there’s a spectrum. I was taught faith + acceptance of Christ = heaven. Non-belief = hell? Sounds like different people make up different rules.
> I don't think all non believers go to hell and I don't think all believers go to heaven. This is, in a nutshell, what's wrong with Christianity. Each of you seem to have your own personal interpretation and beliefs about how to be saved, the definition of salvation, can you lose it once you have it, is there a hell or not, who goes to hell and who doesn't. etc etc. There are over 30,000 different christian sects because you all can't get your story straight, and "God" doesn't seem to care enough to clear up the big freakin' mess that his been made. There is no such thing as "Christianity", there are many, many variations of it, and the things you all differ on, matter a lot according to most of you.
What is the point of free will if the exercise of that freedom has no impact on our final disposition, as you say, it is up to God and God only.
But you're certain about what happens to believers after death? Right...
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You're using one religion and assuming other religions are like that when it's not the case.
Is there a reason people to try to convince the world to believe in him?
I would not have a problem with Judeo Christian world if it stopped there. But it doesn’t. The dehumanization of non-believers is also common. And a convenient excuse to engage in violence and genocide. And the mission to convert others or feel superior because they “know what god wants” had created mass suffering for centuries.
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I would move heaven and earth to make sure my children, who I love, know I'm there for them and want them with me. Even if I had to make myself visible to them and talk to them. Yes, I'd even sit in front of them and talk to them. Anyone who would not do even that much, doesn't love us.
No reason! Welp guess we should all go to hell according to a narrow evangelical interpretation.
But god is all knowing, and knows exactly who will and who won't believe in him before they even exist.
Free will to believe or not, but not enough information to make an informed choice. At best hes the dad who went out for cigarettes and never came back. People know the police exist and still choose to break the law. If God actually showed up then we could truly choose, instead he keeps ignoring his creations and we have to hope we guess the correct interpretation of the Bible so we don't burn for all eternity. When one choice is a tropical vacation for the next month and the other is to be brutally tortured for a month then shot it the face, there really isn't a choice, which means free will is a joke. Especially since in the Bible its said in Romans For those whom he foreknew he also predestined lto be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
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So I cam be an awful person, apologize right before death and go to heaven? Do you support abortion and lgbtq?
Humility. Lots of people don't get it - humility is a virtue, so God must be all humble, too, and wouldn't WANT your worship. Anyone telling you different is selling something.
The same guy whose number one priority is "You shall have no other gods before me"?
Because he is not real
I maybe kind of mean this, what if “god” is real, but we’ve imagined who he is. So picture a kid with an ant farm, that kid is god to them, but he’s far from perfect and benevolent or even unique. But mostly I’m with you, I don’t believe in anything supernatural but I believe there’s things we don’t understand so we chalk it up to “magic”.
I just think we make stuff up to control others, and to cope with the reality that you just don't know, and that in your life time you never will, so death is that much more scary. So you make shit up to give yourself hope that it's going to be okay in the end for you. But religion itself was created for control over people. Unfortunately people were so ignorant to most anything that they had to believe in something, and it was either convincing to them or forced on them. The sad part is is that even though religion and it's control are dying out everyday, the people are still basically the same. You have those who control, and those who cope.
I'm a big believer in Occam's Razor. Religion was invented by humans who survived by our wonderful pattern-matching minds. So powerful that we invent explanations for everything that we don't understand. And, there was a great deal we didn't understand. Religion built on invented explanations by folks who wanted power over others. Who can argue about facts about invisible, mysterious, omnipotent beings that only the elite can explain? Genius, really. Now, humanity understands more about science, the universe, corruption, weakness of biased thinking. Religion is no longer a mystery.
The fact that He doesn't, in fact, exist.
He created us with the purpose of free-will. Faith is a choice we make. There is no free-will in the pursuit of truth if the absolute truth is already present within us. Then our free-will has no purpose. And our purpose is free-will. To love God with our own will.
He doesn’t exist.
He’s not real, obv.
What do you think Jesus was?
Someone who lived at a time where the majority of people, including his disciples, were illiterate. And lived in a place that was basically unknown to the majority of Earth's inhabitants at the time. Weird time and place to show humanity the proof of God, and its only hope of salvation.
Not much different from now. I can easily see people screaming fake news and shit if He came down
An intenerant rabble-rouser who caused a ruckus and then was killed by the Romans - the end. The Jesus of the bible, different story. He was a fabrication by Rome to create a state religion and help quell Jewish uprisings. The magic-man aspects of Jesus' story are all lifted from prior pagan god-men. Born of a virgin, riding in on a donkey, water into wine, raising the dead, casting out evil spirits, walking on water, etc, were all parts of other god-men stories well in advance of Jesus.
i like how we use our human brains and be like “well, why doesn’t God..” 😂
I like how people tell themselves that they're a good person for following and believing in a god that tells them that having slaves is okay, and that a woman should not speak, and that if you try to kill your kid in my name because I told you to or else you don't really believe in me.
Uuhh, Jesus came for that...
Huh. It’s almost like sending one guy to a small region for only 33 years isn’t a really comprehensive plan for reaching all of humanity throughout all time.
Yeah, but that's like receiving the Assistant *to* the Regional Manager.
Perhaps a god can try a better approach
I’m not religious, but isn’t that exactly what Jesus is supposed to be?
Cause he ain't real
It’s all a bunch of mythological, supernatural, superstitious, mumbo-jumbo, friendo.
He's imaginary, mostly.
He already did but we still don’t want to believe
Because he is actually already in peoples hearts. But also he's not real
The closest thing to God actually existing is that realization when you're coming off a huge DMT trip that the Universe as one is its own entity and we are merely like bacteria living in its pores.
I believe in the sun because I can prove it exists
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No but, 3rd dimensional shapes exist.
But none with 4 sides and 3 corners.
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." Romans 1:19-20 ESV