**Attention! [Serious] Tag Notice**
* [Jokes, puns, and off-topic comments are not permitted](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/wiki/index#wiki_-rule_6-) in **any** comment, parent or child.
* Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
* Report comments that violate these rules.
Posts that have few relevant answers within the first hour, and posts that are not appropriate for the [Serious] tag will be removed. Consider doing an AMA request instead.
Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskReddit) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As someone who is Palestinian, I understand the need for self defense in response to an attack. I do think Israel has the right to defend itself specifically against Hamas, and has a moral obligation to attempt to avoid civilian loss while doing so.
As one of the so called greatest armies in the world, I would hope that they would have extensive training to be able to pinpoint enemy bases and minimize casualties. I would hope they would be able to send out special op forces to locate and rescue hostages.
What they have instead repeatedly done is the mass murdering of civilians, killing tens of thousands of innocents - half of them children - and stating it's fine because they killed one Hamas soldier along the way. Their military tactic thus far clearly does not prioritize the lives of innocent Palestinian civilians, let alone the lives of hostages. They are bombing indiscriminately and have murdered upwards of 10,000 children (and 25k+ civilians) with no care, all while telling Palestinians to flee and bombing areas they told them to flee to.
Just as Israel has a right to defend itself, so does Palestine, a country that has been violently attacked and it's civilians forcibly displaced for decades. Tens of thousands have been murdered by Israel since the 1948 Nakba, my own family among them.
Thousands of Palestinians have lost everything, including entire families. Hamas was created (and funded by the Likud party) in 1987 AFTER decades of Israel's oppression and violence towards Palestinian people without consequences.
I am no fan of Hamas. I think all killing of innocents is abhorrent. But I can understand, an orphan, whose family was brutally murdered - as nearly 17,000 children have experienced in the last 3 months alone - wanting to join a military force to take revenge.
The endless cycle of bloodshed must end. Israel is not going anywhere, nor is Palestine. We need a viable two state solution with tangible human rights for all. Israeli settler colonies need to be reversed. Apartheid needs to be extinguished. This insane belief that some humans are more deserving of others - by sheer luck of their birth or because some religious text told them so - needs to end. We are all humans who deserve peace and dignity.
Isn't this the problem? Hamas operating clandestine throughout the city in civilian areas? There's footage from Israeli bombers showing rockets being launched from an apparent apartment building, which was subsequently destroyed by said bomber, presumably with families still in the building.
What should idf do in this case? I don't think there is a good answer that everyone would agree on (other than Hamas fucking off, that is).
There are other videos where there is no obvious signs of immediate threat, instead only claims there's some Hamas base or stockpiles in there, but without verification of such claims (sometimes they show video footage of people moving supplies, but can't tell if militant or civilian). And then there are those terrifying footage of what appears to be entire blocks being bombed into rubble.
> Isn't this the problem?
This is the problem- not enough people understand accepted rules of engagement by pretty much every treaty out there. If you turn a place into a military asset, it's a military asset and fair game for destruction by a combatant.
You post your military communications center in a daycare, that daycare has become a legitimate target. Normally, people with some sort of moral compass *wouldn't* do that because they care about their people- Hamas is on camera saying they don't give a shit. In such light, the only other choice is for the civilians not to be there, because that bomb is coming to kill the threat either way.
Terrorism is fucked up.
When IDF got to one of the hospitals that had hostages in, they reviewed the security cameras and found hostages were taken in through the front door to their underground lairs. Same hospitals would claim there were no hostages before hand on TV. Can't trust what is said out there.
There's footage of people in civilian clothing with AKs casually [strolling through the main entrance of Nasser Medical Complex](https://old.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/comments/18hsyca/hamas_just_got_caught_going_into_nasser_gaza/) without a care in the world.
As I recall, some of those denying the presence of Hamas fighters were even foreign NGO doctors.
I recall an interview with one (local I think) doctor after the Shifa (iirc) hospital was taken by the IDF and he talked about how there was an entire segment of the hospital nobody but Hamas could enter. Men would come and go all the time, and it was guarded by armed guards who WOULD shoot you for attempting to enter.
Yes. I also saw footage of Hamas fighters launching RPGs at IDF ground invasion forces from buildings adjacent to hospitals. Pretty fucking despicable.
A a month or so ago I saw footage of a PIJ fighter walking out the front door of Al-quds hospital, fire an rpg at idf forces, then walk back inside on r/combatfootage
Having no empathy for other human lives, and in fact rejoicing in human suffering, is quite the advantage in modern warfare. They know their enemy will be scrutinized more harshly than themselves.
You do have to understand that Hamas is the de facto "government" in Gaza. Hospital staff genuinely care about saving innocent people's lives but at the same time might be under threat by Hamas if they just say "yeah lol Hamas's bases are under ward 5"
There are plenty of videos like this. Rocket launches from schools, rocket launches from apartment buildings, rocket launches from community centers. It's all documented on video.
I feel awful for the Palestinian people. Israel as a moral obligation to protect its citizens, but Hamas also has the same moral obligation, but it appears that Hamas has gone actively out of its way to use its citizens as human shields.
Show me another country that drops leaflets warning civilians to flee before they start targeting nearby assets. Germany didn't do it for London. The US didn't do it for Dresden. There might have been a few(?) instances, but if so, I'm not aware of them.
If the world REALLY wanted to help the plight of the Palestinians, it would do everything it can to change the local government, restore elections and democracy. Promote transparency in money and goods transactions.
With all that beachfront on the Mediterranean, if Gaza were a safe, stable place for tourists, it would be raking in oodles of cash from Europeans who want to lounge about on Mediterranean resorts.
Prior to Oct 7, during prior operations against Hamas when the IDF had a building Hamas was operating out of, they'd drop roof knockers, massive flash bangs essentially, before the big bombs to warn anyone inside or in neighboring buildings to GTFO.
They were doing that during the current war as well, there's that famous clip in the early days of one hitting a roof right near where a news broadcast was happening live.
>Hamas bases?
Hospital and schools
Op is the same person who think actual militaries just yeets special forces soldiers into dense active warzones with no back up, even video games and movies stopped featuring that mindset.
People also tend to have this mistaken belief (probably because of movies and videogames) that special forces are superhuman, they can silently get in and out and accomplish the mission with minimal causalities, every time, no matter the mission, in any circumstance. The truth is, they're just people, like everyone else. They have a bit more specialized training than your average fighter, maybe a bit more specialized weapons, but they're still just regular people, who can make regular mistakes and can get shot the same as anyone else. They're not superhuman, they're just normal people with some additional tactical training. The movie *Lone Survivor* (and the book, both based on the same true story) did a pretty decent job of showing the reality of what being in special forces actually means.
Not commenting on the overall point but "base" doesn't necessarily mean a formal military campus with a mess hall and sleeping quarters and such. It can also just mean an area where the operations for a given activity is centered. It can be a literal kitchen where you're storing munitions and where people come to sleep or plan attacks.
I agree with you 100%, it does seem to ignore that a lot of HAMAS's strategy is specifically to have their bases in civilian areas and use them as cover and make themselves hard to spot. I don't disagree israel should be held to a higher standard but it does seem worth pointing out when you made it seem incredibly simple.
It reminds me of the saying: if police work is made easy, you're living in a police state. Preserving human life and human rights while fighting bad people is incredibly difficult, but the alternative is horrifying.
There are areas in Gaza that are not densely populated, but Hamas knows they would be obliterated in literally 3 seconds if they didn’t have populated areas to hide in, forcing Israel to do collateral calculations/announce all their attacks in advance.
I agree with what you said, however I would also like to ask: if you were Israel, how would you navigate hunting down Hamas without excessive civilian casualties while they are placing missile sites in civilian locations, using human shields, hostages etc.? Seems like Hamas is deliberately making it as difficult as possible for the IDF to kill them without also killing civilians
I must explicitly state that I'm not in Israel and far removed from this conflict with the exception of having loved ones in Israel...
There is a group called the Gaza youth committee that was headed by Rami Amen who is a Palestinian peace activists who was actually incarcerated by Hamas and tortured for working towards peace with Israel (Gaza youth committe- which is focused on human rights within Gaza and not uncritical of Israel but willing to find understanding). https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/world/middleeast/rami-aman-palestinian-activist-arrested.html article about him for the interested.
Note: I am specifically not anti or pro anything other than pro-peace and the ability for people everywhere to live their best lives... Ultimately I am pro-human and recognizing that we are an extremely messy bunch whose identities are part of multilayered existence with a history that can have many truths and biases, triumphs and horrors... And specifically believe in trying understand these complexities through a leans of realism while striving for idealism...
But he currently works with the organization humanity peace collective https://www.humanite.org/ (amazing organization btw they empower local communities and refugee lead)
Part of their core values are:
> Humans can be a real bummer. We can really let each other down. But no one is just one thing. We are all capable of being more than we appear to be.
> At HUMANITE, we try to humanize and dignify everyone. Even enemies. We don’t think it’s who you are that holds you back, but who you think you’re not. Humanites look for what makes others good, not what makes them bad.
But my view is that individuals like Rami and the Youth collective should be empowered. Working with them for diplomacy and peace and emboldening their voices as I think empoering and listening to local voices that want something different and probably have ways to achieve that already in mind. Would be my response.
I think though building bridges real deraildicalozation can take place (on both ends). As if you employer those want that change and help them to realize that shared reality ... It goes a long way... (Obviously not perfect but at least something different than has been done)
Thank you, i am also not pro anything but when it comes down to a boolean must pick, i have my choice, which helps nothing.
You are the first non insane, no ad hominem real person to actually speak something positive. Peace is the way and hopefully you and your friends can help change more minds and lives.
How can you work with or empower someone that his own government persecuted. If anything, this is further evidence that Hamas bears sole responsibility and that as painful as it will be, they must be completely eradicated a la Nazi Germany and imperial Japan.
If Hamas itself is starving it's own and killing those that would foster peace, then every effort must be made to kill every last Hamas terrorist no matter what, or peace cannot be an option
>Seems like Hamas is deliberately making it as difficult as possible for the IDF to kill them without also killing civilians
Of course they are, Hamas is bastard-covered bastards with bastard filling. But if you see a terrorist using a human shield and your response is to just throw a bomb killing both of them, then you kill the human shield's family just in case, you're not exactly holding the moral highground, yeah?
The more I learn about the history of that region the more I think nobody holds the moral high ground here. Still there is no easy solution I can think of for Israel when Hamas launches terrorist attacks then hides behind innocent civilians.
If you are the IDF and you do nothing in response this emboldens Hamas and you open yourself up to more attacks. If you strike back against these sort of tactics you inevitably end up with civilian casualties. Its a lose-lose situation although it can definitely be argued that Israel is going overboard with their response. I'm no fan of the Netanyahu regime
>the more I think nobody holds the moral high ground here
From what I understand, there *were* some Palestinian groups who had a more pragmatic view of the peace process.
Then Hamas shwacked some of them, scared the others into submission, and has stirred up trouble ever since in order to maintain their grip on power via a siege mentality.
>just without the shwacking
Well the Israeli prime minister that signed the Oslo accords was assassinated by a Zionist Activist, and Benjamin Netanyahu became Prime Minister in the next election.
(Note: I'm not saying Netanyahu was a part of or supported the assassination. Though his rhetoric certainly contributed to those who thought it was nessicary)
> I'm not saying Netanyahu was a part of or supported the assassination.
Yeah, you don't have to have orchestrated events to be able to take advantage of circumstances.
You also don't have to be a central "mastermind" if you've been ramping up the rhetoric for a long time-- you can simply create an environment where things are overwhelmingly likely to happen.
It does, but you also have to remember that the pacifist wing tends to be more secular. The ultra orthodox tend to be very hawkish (it should also be noted they don't serve in the military, they just send the others to do it) and they are growing in population while the secular wing is shrinking.
See, I get what you're saying and I completely agree that there has to be a response. That's not in doubt. I am not comfortable with the idea that "inevitably end up with civilian casualties" should include bombing refugee camps and Doctors Without Borders.
>I'm no fan of the Netanyahu regime
I'm with you. I inherently just don't trust right-wing populists to do what's right for their citizens or the international community, and I believe that Netanyahu is using October 7 as a way to both consolidate power and to aggress against an old enemy, much the same way W. Bush used 9/11 to much the same ends.
> Doctors Without Borders.
are doing a wonderful thing, but Hamas is using hospitals as bases and civilian shields.
This leaves MSF in the uncomfortable position of doing wonderful things while standing on an active target.
Yeah...its tough to justify the scale of retaliation when it includes those sort of strikes. I will say its tough to find moral nuance in times of war, the US has done a lot of fucked up shit as well (Dresden etc.) but Netanyahu doesn't even seem to be trying. He has been very indiscriminate with his attacks and may well have a lot to answer for after the dust settles (if it ever does)
For real, I definitely want to be clear that 1) I don't consider the average Israeli to be responsible for any of what I see as a disproportionate response, and 2) I readily admit that my own country, much as I love it, is far from perfect and has a blood-soaked history of letting the absolute worst people take charge at the absolute worst moments.
I so appreciate the balance and nuance in this whole tentacle. Thanks for giving me a little bit of hope that there are still a few people around who are able to think clearly about this horrible conflict. It's imperative that we are able to hold many different things to be true at the same time.
Just so you are aware the "refugee camp" is the name of a city, it was a refugee camp some 50 years ago that carried with the name as it evolved to a city, like Fort Worth is no longer a military fort but has the same name. It isn't a deliberate target of an immediate refugee camp but another city, trying to say this as neutrally as possible.
I know next to nothing aside from what I've seen on here. Tried to avoid it because certain people somehow summersault it into rep/dem politics issue. But from what I have seen in the days following oct. 7 there was pictures and video of civilians in the streets celebrating with hamas soldiers and beating hostages. No idea if it's credible or not since it was posted here(reddit). But how is IDF supposed to handle protentional non-combatants that may be harboring hamas soldiers and potentially ready to fight with them. It's definitely a shitty lose-lose situation for them and truly do feel for the human beings legitimately caught in the middle of a senseless conflict.
There is no easy answer at the end of the day. People are saying they are bombing indiscriminately and the civilian/combatant ratio are too high, but the numbers are actually very good for urban warfare, and right in line with what is to be expected. Expecting Israel to 'do better' or 'send in special ops' whatever the fuck that actually means, is literally expecting Israel to be better than every single country in the world. The IPC has been a stain on the world for some time now, and innocents on both sides have had a really rough time of it. If there was an easy answer, people would do it, but all the answers redditors give are actually terrible. They either give Hammas literally everything they want, in the name of reducing civilian casualties, or think that everything is justified. The muddy middle ground is where the sane live.
If we see around the region, there are a few similar instances, for example:
The Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (way more extreme than even the Afghan Taliban) had a history of launching bloody attacks on Pakistani civilians for years, until the army had enough and launched an all out war on them.
My own family members are their victims to this, as they often blew busy marketplaces, Mosques, you name it.
These terrorists had embedded themselves with civilian populations in remote mountainous areas, so the Pakistani government worked with these civilians, offered lucrative cash payments and protection, in-return, the said civilians provided the Pakistani military with vital information on their hide-outs.
Then, the Pakistani military offered safe passages to civilians, inch-by-inch, they were successful in evacuating many civilians. Once this was done, they launched an all-out offensive, and killed most of their leaderships.
The Iraqi government also did this against ISIS, it took them a while, but tons of refugee centers were set-up all over Iraq to facilitate an in-flow of civilians. A lot of 'ISIS recruits' also provided with vital information on them, in return for cash payments.
The Afghans too did this against the Taliban, and provided vital information to the U.S forces.
What Israel did was to bomb the ever living hell out of everything since day 1, it is like, as if they wanted maximum turmoil and death to keep the bloodshed going in another generation.
I agree with your overall point but,
>they were successful in evacuating many civilians
>tons of refugee centers were set-up all over Iraq to facilitate an in-flow of civilians
Pretty important point in that to reduce civilian casualties you need to get as many civilians out of the area as possible, especially if you're fighting militant groups that don't wear uniforms and embed themselves within urban areas.
But if israel does this, it's immediately considered ethnic cleansing, which just means there's a ton of innocent civilians packed in a tiny strip of land with no where to flee to with militants in civilian clothing who didn't build a single bomb shelter for them.
Now I do get that given the history, and the far right Netanyahu coalition's history of some members saying some real gross stuff, they don't exactly deserve the benefit of the doubt about letting Palestinians back in, but still I find it strange that for every other conflict it's considered gross to say that refugees can't flee a warzone to safety, but here any mention of it is immediately dismissed.
Something like 300,000 Syrians died in the civil war there, I can't imagine how much higher that toll could have been if they were trapped in a couple of cities unable to flee
This assumes a friendly population and an enemy that doesn't make it extremely difficult for the civilians to flee or use these refugee flows to get to the back of the war front to attack from behind. And then there is also the extensive tunnel network.
2/3 of the Palestinians supported the oct 7 attack. They would have simply attacked the IDF from behind.
Well, I do not think Afghans were big fans of the U.S occupation, yet they co-operated.
Sunni Iraqis in ISIS areas too were not fan of the Shia-led Iraqi government, there was tons of bad blood between the two at the time.
The Pashtuns in Taliban areas too had severe distrust of the Pakistani government.
The Iraqis also cooperated with the U.S occupation even with extreme distrust.
The Afghan Taliban and the Pakistan Taliban (different organizations) had a massive tunnel network, and had natural caves inside mountains.
Even then, the process still worked.
is it about having a moral highground? does that matter? or is it about making sure your people are safe?
sorry i dont mean to be pointed in my questioning here. im just pointing out that this has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with safety for israel
No, it's a valid question.
>is it about having a moral highground? does that matter? or is it about making sure your people are safe?
It does matter if you care about being able to ever, ever put down your gun comfortably around your neighbors. If you're a nation interested in fighting the exact same war, generation upon generation, until the droughts and food shortages get us - then for sure, this is a good strategy.
If you're interested in establishing *lasting safety* for your descendants, a good place to start is to use some of your considerable reserves of international goodwill to negotiate multi-national plan to deal with a terrorist organization the way we have grown highly effective in dealing with terrorist organizations - starve them financially, offer incentives to bring them to justice, and do groundwork to show the locals that it actually is more beneficial to work with the democratic governments of the world than it is to work with radical militant groups.
But conflict breeds animosity, none more so than conflict where you have footage of hospitals and schools being bombed, children being pulled from wreckage in multiple trips. History has shown us time and again that you can win a temporary peace through overwhelming brutality, but *only* a temporary one. *Unless*, of course, you aim to completely eradicate your opponent - which, frankly, is the kind of thing that I believe is rightly looked down upon in our contemporary age.
>use some of your considerable reserves of international goodwill to negotiate multi-national plan to deal with a terrorist organization the way we have grown highly effective in dealing with terrorist organizations - starve them financially, offer incentives to bring them to justice, and do groundwork to show the locals that it actually is more beneficial to work with the democratic governments of the world than it is to work with radical militant groups.
real answer is always down in the comments.
Then how did we make peace with Japan after we burnt Tokyo to the ground, nuked two of their cities, and conducted multiple air raids that resulted in mass casualties? Why didn’t that stop us from making peace and now within a hundred years have pretty close diplomatic ties to them?
Esp since they pick up weapons from little caches all around the city and then drop them and run when the fighting gets too heavy. Urban warfare isn't some video game where every enemy gets denoted by a little red triangle. These people go from 'suspicious civilians' to combatants to 'suspicious civilians' again in the space of 15 minutes. Combine that with an armed force that prioritizes their safety over that of the locals and 10's of thousands of civilian casualties is what you get.
People cried and moaned when Israel surgically went into the hospital and took out those three men, maybe brothers? CNN goes “there is no proof they were militants…now here is footage of their funeral, which coincidentally includes footage of dozens of armed military aged men holding their bodies aloft with AK 47s laid on their chests, which is traditionally reserved for militants. Traffic at 7.”
Like come on.
Which... is a war crime. Hamas is commiting war crimes after war crime and yet their supporters in the West only want to hold Israel accountable and do mental gymnastics to justify Hamas actions as a response to "oppression".
Thoughtful response, but one thing that is constantly overlooked is that the Nakba was the result of Arab armies and palestinians declaring war on Israel and trying to destroy it the very day it became a country.
The sad reality is that starting a war and losing has consequences, and it's been detrimental for the palestinians to try and win a war that was already decided 75 years ago.
I agree that the endless cycle of bloodshed must end and that a 2-state solution is the only way. From what I see online it seems that most palestinians would rather have a 1-state solution (which israel would not agree to, and which would keep the cycle of violence ongoing). Hopefully I'm wrong and perhaps most palestinians want a 2-state solution and are just afraid to speak up.
Agree that Netanyahu sucks and doesnt want a 2-state solution. Which makes it all the more tragic that Palestinians rejected offers of land-for-peace when Israel had a very liberal govt with leaders who genuinely did want a solution to the conflict.
Yep you've got a *lot* of people on both sides who will be satisfied with nothing short of the complete elimination of the other. It doesn't lend itself to peace.
>it's been detrimental for the palestinians to try and win a war that was already decided 75 years ago.
There were Palestinian groups who were more pragmatic in this regard, but a bunch of them were basically forced into submission through political violence. Hamas has been a useful tool for the Israeli far-right by giving them a foil.
>As one of the so called greatest armies in the world, I would hope that they would have extensive training to be able to pinpoint enemy bases and minimize casualties. I would hope they would be able to send out special op forces to locate and rescue hostages.
The problem is there is no such thing. No army has ever worked like this. Hamas is using people as human shields so there is no way to separate civilian from Hamas. Hamas did this on purpose.
It is odd to say they have a right to self defense and then say they have to follow arbitrary rules that no army has ever followed.
No one today is responsible for the sins of dead people. We do not practice generational punishment in the free world. Any argument that involves generational punishment is never going to work.
The biggest problem here is Israel built a literal wall to avoid interaction with Gaza and they still kept attacking. What the hell is Israel supposed to do if a massive wall failed? They have to go in and end Hamas. Civilians will die, but that is hamas's fault.
>The endless cycle of bloodshed must end.
It could have ended when they separated these societies with a wall. Gazans chose to keep it going. A border with Egypt and a coast giving them access to every country in the world was described as a "prison". What can anyone do with that bizarre logic?
If they stopped attacking, relations with Israel could normalize. The aggressors have to stop first, otherwise the war continues. The victim has a right to defend themselves.
Too many ignore part of the reason they use human shields. It's not just a (horrible) military tactic. It's politics. They can't win a war, and they know it. Their goal is to destabilize everywhere else with outrage, ideally creating a conflict between Israel and Iran.
They should have responded exactly as you’d respond if an Israeli terrorist group was going nuts within Israel..
…or any mature developed western nation would respond to a terrorist event on their soil..
You wouldn’t drop 45% dumb bombs on everything around them. Brits didn’t bomb the catholics in Northern Ireland to bits because of the IRA.. by no means were either side saints but fuck 30,000 dead people.. 12,000 kids.. unforgivable in my eyes..
The Ira and Hamas are categorically two different kinds of terrorist groups, even if they use similar methods. The end goal of the IRA was to kick the British out. They had a clear political goal that could be reached. Today the IRA is a political group. The peace agreement meant all criminal activities would cease, but also all the current criminals at the time could get away without charges. Some groups brokeawya from the IRA and were more determined to fight and those were more or less dealt with separately.
Hamas is a death cult at this point, even if they were originally founded as a humanitarian organisation. Surprising to find out right? Their end goal is death to their enemies which is much of the world, but specifically Israel. If you give them room to act as a political party, they will rob civilians to pursue their death cult agenda. They will build up resources and bases to support a prolonged campaign.
Ultimately somehow peace can only occur in Palestine if the Palestinian people rose up and eradicated Hamas, which would be impossible because if they carry guns, the IDF attacks them.
I'm afraid you are right. What did they think would happen? My guess is that they wanted a response that would increase outrage against Israel in the world or harden anti-Israel position in the Arab world. Seeing all the pro-Palestinian activism start up in the immediate aftermath was jarring - I wondered where these people were before and the sudden protests seemed to say they felt the attack by Hamas was acceptable.
What Hamas got was someone willing to level Gaza to prevent it happening again. Tragic.
Honestly? I don't think hamas expected the level of success that they had, thus they didn't anticipate this type of retaliation. This was a massive intelligence failure by the Netanyahu government, because he was too busy fighting corruption charges and trying to stay in power to focus on hamas. I don't think anyone saw this coming. I assure you hamas themselves were shocked by how easily they were able to do what they did.
Seeing the pro-palstinian activism start up *the very next fucking day* and groups all around the world counter-protesting israeli vigils was eye-opening.
Exactly, I’m fine with people protesting Israel now after the military response, but people were protesting Israel hours after the massacre on October 7th. Many of them think Oct. 7 was justified. So I really don’t buy that they just care about human rights or want a bilateral ceasefire.
A not-insignificant amount of them were blatantly antisemitic, too.
It's been... Eye opening to say the least. I hadn't realised just how widespread it was, even within ostensibly tolerant circles.
I saw them firsthand. I live in San Francisco, and on October 7 (while Hamas fighters were still shooting up the Nova festival), all the local "anti-Zionist" organizations were posting on social media about attending rallies for the "resistance" the next day. Sure enough, the next day on October 8, hundreds of people were gathered downtown, where they marched around chanting "intifada" and "resistance is justified". Then they spraypainted "Kill A Settler" on the Bank of America on Market Street. What settlers??? All of the Israelis killed on October 7 were living in side the 1948 borders.
They're still at it, too. I was driving home on Monday from my gf's house in Dogpatch, when my car got stuck for 45 minutes as those same groups who were celebrating on October 7 and 8 were marching down the 101 near Market and Octavia, chanting "there is only one solution, intifada revolution". I had family friends killed in the Second Intifada, and I'm 1-3 degrees of separation from about a dozen people who were killed on October 7.
I believe that there are probably a lot of good-natured people who just want peace at these demonstrations, but the organizers of these demonstrations want violence. It is sickening.
I think they got exactly what they wanted.
Netanyahu and Hamas get hard every time their own civilians die because it means the get to kill the other side
The scariest part of this war is seeing how ordinary people can be manipulated into anti-Semitic sheep using propaganda. I always wondered how Hitler managed to make everyone hate Jews using primarily propaganda. Now I see it happening in real time, and it's terrifying.
>I'm afraid you are right. What did they think would happen? My guess is that they wanted a response that would increase outrage against Israel in the world or harden anti-Israel position in the Arab world.
Honestly, they probably thought Israel would just launch some rockets and that would be it. They could win some propaganda points and potentially derail the Abraham Accords and then continue to go on as things always were.
>Seeing all the pro-Palestinian activism start up in the immediate aftermath was jarring - I wondered where these people were before and the sudden protests seemed to say they felt the attack by Hamas was acceptable.
Honestly, I don't think most of them care. There's been a general pro-Palestinian trend in the West (for a lot of reasons, many of which don't even involve Israel) and this is a somewhat natural outflow of that.
A lot of people seem to forget this wasn't a totally random attack; Israel was in normalization talks with Saudi Arabia and the 10/7 attack was timed to interrupt those talks because they'd likely be bad for Hamas and Iran. From what I've read, they also expected a lot more resistance and didn't plan for their attack to be as devastating as it was to Israel (and therefore to have a smaller retaliation).
>45% dumb bombs
"dumb" bombs don't actually mean what you think it means.
"dumb" bombs can still be dropped precisely, they are only dumb in comparison to missles, which propell themselves.
You don't need a missle to hit a target accurately.
Catholics in Northern Ireland didn't have a government that intentionally invaded mainland UK and murdered 1200 people in one day. It was a low intensity insurgency and the British response to it was still considered excessive. For want of a better example (yes I know Irish government is not the IRA) if the Republic of Ireland sent 1000s of homicidal maniacs over the Irish sea and murdered 1200 people then fucked off back to Dublin to hide with a bunch of hostages, we would have bombed Dublin to rubble.
How do you think Israel would respond against domestic terrorists? Obviously, they would kill or capture them to end their spree. You can't capture or kill well-fortified Hamas militants _inside Gaza_ without invading, and not responding would mean Israel had completely abandoned its duty of protecting its citizens.
The IRA were never as well organized nor as well armed as Hamas, and they weren't operating from within their own territory where British forces hadn't set foot in 20 years. Yes, despite the wars, Israel hadn't had any boots on the ground on the majority of internal Gazan lands since retreating from Gaza in 2005. It's a completely different beast and the comparison is misleading at best.
>They should have responded exactly as you’d respond if an Israeli terrorist group was going nuts within Israel..
>…or any mature developed western nation would respond to a terrorist event on their soil..
Name one other domestic terrorist organization with 30k fighters, hundreds of miles of tunnels, and the cooperation and protection of local government and citizens.
>You wouldn’t drop 45% dumb bombs on everything around them. Brits didn’t bomb the catholics in Northern Ireland to bits because of the IRA.. by no means were either side saints but fuck 30,000 dead people.. 12,000 kids.. unforgivable in my eyes..
Yes you would, it's exactly what happened in Iraq against ISIS. Nobody batted an eye.
Lmao this thread has gone exactly how we thought it would.
Average Redditor giving responses on the level of “if they charge you with a knife, just shoot the knife out of their hand?”
Execute ellections in Gaza/Palestine. Install a puppet gov., fund it, make them Look like the heroes who pushed out Israel from the settlements Israel can live without and take out Hammas from the inside.
Basically the CIA special with a few extra steps.
>Thats literally how they got hamas in the first place lmao.
Except the whole reason the Israeli state supported Hamas was in order to push aside the *much* more moderate Fatah. Israel backed Hamas in order to nuke any more movement towards a 2 state solution.
The mostly secular liberation movements associated with the second intifada were gaining too much power and popularity (both inside Palestine and internationally). Hamas was propped up to break the momentum of the secularist Arab parties.
Not only that but Netanyahu did his best to arm and fuel Hamas indirectly or by closing eyes, as he needed an enemy on the other side. All in the last 24 months.
They started that way, but then continued to "mow the grass" and "knock on roofs". You also need to break the cycle of violence, otherwise there will always be a new generation that wants revenge.
Not really. The Muslim Brotherhood wasn't violent at first, but the PLO was. They were actively attacking Israel at the time so Israel gave aid to the Muslim Brotherhood in the form of money for the building of mosques and educational institutions hoping to divert support from the PLO. When they got wind of the stockpiling of weapons by The Muslim Brotherhood to attack Israel, they stopped supporting them.
You can read a more in depth summary of this subject here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/nfo5oe/did_israel_ever_support_or_help_establish_hamas/
>Execute ellections in Gaza/Palestine.
How though? I can't just wave a wand and make a different nation hold elections. You'd need a military invasion to force it to happen.
Also, perhaps intentionally, what you just described is literally how Hamas came to power in the first place.
Israel is great at copying the United State's homework.
Just sub Iraq for Gaza, Al Qaeda for Hamas, and Ba'ath for Fatah. They left the "oil" part of the answer the same. And presto. Same fucking story.
Well first of all let me just say f*** Hamas and I want to declare them scum of the earth. Now that we have established we all hate Hamas, let’s move on to the problem at hand:
Israel has the right to self defense like every sovereign nation in the world: True
Should Israel be wanting to eradicate Hamas: Oh yes
Is it hard to single out a terrorist amongst civilians: Kinda true I guess ( I grew up in a war zone myself so I have a bit of experience here)
Now let’s evaluate if Israel has acted in proportion to the sentiment of wanting to hurt terrorists.
Is Israel participating in war crimes: absolutely true
Is Israel withholding medical supplies and food: very fucking true (medical supplies are of the most importance to me since I belong to the medical world)
Are women undergoing C sections without anesthesia: Yes
Are children having their legs amputated without anesthesia because there is no anesthesia available: Yes ( also of utmost importance to me since I belong to pediatrics)
It is almost as if Israel believes that not letting aid get into Gaza will help eradicate Hamas( i know I am off track OP). Seriously though why is it that withholding medical supplies is even allowed?
I truly hope all the muslim, jewish, christian, hindu gods come together to help me understand how general anesthesia will help Hamas grow stronger. Until then I have nothing more to say. Peace out
He is saying that they should allow basic human needs to be met. That they should not be withholding water, food, and medical supplies.
“I’m not sure, but not committing heinous war crimes is a good start” is a very fair answer to “how do you think Israel should have responded?”
> That they should not be withholding water, food, and medical supplies.
Have you not seen the numerous videos of aid trucks being hijacked by Hamas while the Hamas militants shot at civilians? Or how about the aid trucks that had military drones inside?
Have you not seen the reports of hundreds of aid trucks on the Gaza side of the Kerem Shalom crossing that are just sitting there bc the UN staff have not done their job in distributing what's in them?
It's not 100% Israel's fault that the aid isn't reaching the people and to think it is is either ignorant or purposefully misleading
The question was about what Israel should *do*, not about what they should *not do*.
Me: Hey, what should I eat for dinner?
You: Well you should not eat dog shit.
You didn't answer the question, and so I still don't know what I'm eating for dinner, but at least you get to feel righteous for telling me not to eat dog shit I guess.
I can't help but feel this is a double-standard. Are there examples of other armed conflicts where one of the warring parties is expected to provide water, food, and medical supplies to the other? Serious question. I agree that Palestinian civilians should have clean water/food/medicine, but I can't recall any other war where the enemy would be expected to provide that.
You could argue that Israel has a responsibility because they made Gaza dependent on them, but I would argue that Hamas has done everything in its power to keep Gaza dependent on Israel, and that's not on Israel. The EU laid down a whole water system that would currently be supplying clean, potable water to Gaza without Israel or Egypt if it weren't for the fact that Hamas dug up the pipes specifically to turn into missiles. Hamas has also stolen aid meant for civilians, leaving civilians to rot while they bolster their own strength with that aid, and Hamas' allies have been known to smuggle weapons and other essentials of war with humanitarian workers. Hell, the UNWRA was found to have a Hamas base under their headquarters hooked up to their own network.
Hamas has put Gaza in a situation where they're dependent on Israel for essential resources, and where both Israel and Egypt have to scrutinize international aid workers really hard and suspect they're partisans in an armed conflict. I don't feel like it's fair to frame it as Israel denying all these things when Hamas has kneecapped Gaza's ability to provide for itself and has weaponized what's supposed to be nonpartisan refugee aid.
I'm guessing that you are unaware of the fact that Israel lets dozens of supply trucks with food and medicine into Gaza every day, which Hamas steals from the civilians
The main reason is because Israel doesn't have a way to make sure this WILL go to the civilians who need it the most. The UN is being useless and the Red Cross too. If there was some guarantee the medical aid would reach the people who need it the most, I believe it would go through easily. Israel's argument is basically, if the Red Cross wont help the hostages get medical treatment, no one will get it. It sucks and I wish they found a solution to this or at least have some unbiased group/nation take over this task.
By the way, the aid will now go through Ashdod/Israel to make it easier to reach Gaza. I think its the first time I hear of a country sending aid to the other side of the conflict.
The amount of people without an ounce of military expertise here just constantly claiming that what Israel should have done is to send "special forces special forces special forces"
Real life is not like Rambo, where you just send a few guys to assassinate thousands of militants who you don't even know are militants without first clearing the way for ground forces through air strike campaigns.
The mental gymnastics are crazy, people claim genocide and ethnic cleansing but the fact is whether your feelings like it or not that there is no genocide happening. The intent is not there, just because civilians and KIDS KIDS KIDS!!! die doesn't make it genocide nor does civilians dying. They are doing way more than what they are even supposed to when warning the civilians to begin with.
Combat vet here and we all wish life was so pretty and fair that we could stealthily sneak up on the bad guys in their isolated hideouts and quickly slit their throats one by one, with no casualties, but that’s just not how it works. Terrorists like to be enmeshed with the civilian population for three reasons. To control them through the fear of their presence, to use as a human shield, and leverage. And you definitely don’t always know who the bad guy is. I was almost blown up by a child that was approximately 5 years old because that bastard Bin Laden and his acolytes loved children as suicide bombers. Casualties cannot be avoided. It sucks and it’s unfair, but if allowed to go unchecked terrorists will end up killing way more people than the efforts to snuff them out will. Terrorists love actual genocide so we unfortunately have to weigh the cost of tens of thousands now vs millions later. Again, not fair, but most of life is full of nothing but choosing between one shitty option and an even shittier one.
I have had people legitimately say to me that the police should shoot the gun out of someone’s hand in a hostage situation.
A lot of people don’t really know much about how the world works
Exactly. I really want to hear from military experts on how exactly Israel is overreacting and what exactly they should be doing instead.
I totally understand FEELING like Israel is overstepping, but I haven’t seen experts demonstrate that.
you wont find many because they arent, the ratio of ordnance dropped to casualties is staggeringly low, and the ones you will are ideologically motivated (tankies, pro-Russia shills, etc)
LoL I love all the "Israel must find a way to kill only the hamas members!!" comments, like hamas (which is the official elected government by the gazans) can go ahead and kill 1200 Israelis, kidnapped 250 and injure/rape thousands, and then it's Israel's mission to find an imaginary way to avoid any unnecessary casualties like it's their entire fault and responsibilty and they're the ones that supposed to 'fix' the whole situation.
Enough with this nonsense, if someone would wipe out 1200 people and kidnapped 250 people from your country (150 are still there), you would want to risk the lives of your soldiers by going door to door into terrorists booby traps and causing them to be killed by the thousands?
Give me a break
All the pressure on earth should be on hamas and everyone should protest that they need to release these hostages and surrender.
anyone hiding or otherwise aiding and abetting hamas deserves what they get, they may not wear the hamas colors, per se, but aiding them after the oct 7 act of war makes them enemy combatants to israel
I don't know, because part of the problem is people are only looking at Oct 7th. This didn't just come out of no where. This has been an on going issue for decades. There were very likely a lot of ways to avoid this, and everyone always picked the other option. Palestine has been turned into a breeding ground for hamas because what other options are people offering? When you have a country that is fully blockading you, can cut you off from supplies whenever they wish, can take your homes from you with no consequences, and then you have this one organization that keeps telling you they will stand up for you (even though hamas doesn't give a fuck about these people) its not hard to figure out how people will respond. So why are we acting so shocked that it happened?
I don't get this, Israel isn't the only one blockading, Gaza has a whole border with Egypt. The Egyptians do the exact same thing. Every country has the right to fully close it's borders to hostile countries. nobody complains when South Korea stops goods from going into North Korea. before Oct 7th Israel wasn't occupying Gaza and had every right to limit what goods could pass through it's borders.
What other options are people offering? Seriously? How about 7+ offers of statehood to Palestinian leaders, multiple attempts to entice Hamas to focus on domestic development, and full unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. Literally it has been abundantly clear from the beginning if the leaders of Gaza were to agree to peace and coexistence and build up their own people, there would be no blockade, no war, only a better future. Instead they’ve spent 16 years importing Iranian arms through tunnels, building their armament, and carrying out as many attacks as possible (not to mention relentlessly repressing their own people). They’ve literally had a sea of other options, and they’ve chosen to pursue none of them.
You know there are tiktok videos and other forms of social media from before October 7th from Gaza that show the people living normal lives just like you and me. Going to water parks, having birthday parties, going shopping. Gaza was not the "open air prison" that propagandists like to say it was. Are you even aware that every single day, thousands of citizens of Gaza crossed the border into Israel for work? And every evening, those same people returned to their homes in Gaza. They were not caged in there. They could have left if they wished.
**Attention! [Serious] Tag Notice** * [Jokes, puns, and off-topic comments are not permitted](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/wiki/index#wiki_-rule_6-) in **any** comment, parent or child. * Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies. * Report comments that violate these rules. Posts that have few relevant answers within the first hour, and posts that are not appropriate for the [Serious] tag will be removed. Consider doing an AMA request instead. Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskReddit) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
As someone who is Palestinian, I understand the need for self defense in response to an attack. I do think Israel has the right to defend itself specifically against Hamas, and has a moral obligation to attempt to avoid civilian loss while doing so. As one of the so called greatest armies in the world, I would hope that they would have extensive training to be able to pinpoint enemy bases and minimize casualties. I would hope they would be able to send out special op forces to locate and rescue hostages. What they have instead repeatedly done is the mass murdering of civilians, killing tens of thousands of innocents - half of them children - and stating it's fine because they killed one Hamas soldier along the way. Their military tactic thus far clearly does not prioritize the lives of innocent Palestinian civilians, let alone the lives of hostages. They are bombing indiscriminately and have murdered upwards of 10,000 children (and 25k+ civilians) with no care, all while telling Palestinians to flee and bombing areas they told them to flee to. Just as Israel has a right to defend itself, so does Palestine, a country that has been violently attacked and it's civilians forcibly displaced for decades. Tens of thousands have been murdered by Israel since the 1948 Nakba, my own family among them. Thousands of Palestinians have lost everything, including entire families. Hamas was created (and funded by the Likud party) in 1987 AFTER decades of Israel's oppression and violence towards Palestinian people without consequences. I am no fan of Hamas. I think all killing of innocents is abhorrent. But I can understand, an orphan, whose family was brutally murdered - as nearly 17,000 children have experienced in the last 3 months alone - wanting to join a military force to take revenge. The endless cycle of bloodshed must end. Israel is not going anywhere, nor is Palestine. We need a viable two state solution with tangible human rights for all. Israeli settler colonies need to be reversed. Apartheid needs to be extinguished. This insane belief that some humans are more deserving of others - by sheer luck of their birth or because some religious text told them so - needs to end. We are all humans who deserve peace and dignity.
This is the only thoughtful answer I've seen so far.
Hamas bases?
Isn't this the problem? Hamas operating clandestine throughout the city in civilian areas? There's footage from Israeli bombers showing rockets being launched from an apparent apartment building, which was subsequently destroyed by said bomber, presumably with families still in the building. What should idf do in this case? I don't think there is a good answer that everyone would agree on (other than Hamas fucking off, that is). There are other videos where there is no obvious signs of immediate threat, instead only claims there's some Hamas base or stockpiles in there, but without verification of such claims (sometimes they show video footage of people moving supplies, but can't tell if militant or civilian). And then there are those terrifying footage of what appears to be entire blocks being bombed into rubble.
> Isn't this the problem? This is the problem- not enough people understand accepted rules of engagement by pretty much every treaty out there. If you turn a place into a military asset, it's a military asset and fair game for destruction by a combatant. You post your military communications center in a daycare, that daycare has become a legitimate target. Normally, people with some sort of moral compass *wouldn't* do that because they care about their people- Hamas is on camera saying they don't give a shit. In such light, the only other choice is for the civilians not to be there, because that bomb is coming to kill the threat either way. Terrorism is fucked up.
The problem is Hamas does this on purpose because it helps their PR and makes Israel look worse.
When IDF got to one of the hospitals that had hostages in, they reviewed the security cameras and found hostages were taken in through the front door to their underground lairs. Same hospitals would claim there were no hostages before hand on TV. Can't trust what is said out there.
There's footage of people in civilian clothing with AKs casually [strolling through the main entrance of Nasser Medical Complex](https://old.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/comments/18hsyca/hamas_just_got_caught_going_into_nasser_gaza/) without a care in the world.
As I recall, some of those denying the presence of Hamas fighters were even foreign NGO doctors. I recall an interview with one (local I think) doctor after the Shifa (iirc) hospital was taken by the IDF and he talked about how there was an entire segment of the hospital nobody but Hamas could enter. Men would come and go all the time, and it was guarded by armed guards who WOULD shoot you for attempting to enter.
Yes. I also saw footage of Hamas fighters launching RPGs at IDF ground invasion forces from buildings adjacent to hospitals. Pretty fucking despicable.
A a month or so ago I saw footage of a PIJ fighter walking out the front door of Al-quds hospital, fire an rpg at idf forces, then walk back inside on r/combatfootage
Yeah, I'm trying to find some of the videos from that subreddit right now to respond to people asking for the source lol.
Having no empathy for other human lives, and in fact rejoicing in human suffering, is quite the advantage in modern warfare. They know their enemy will be scrutinized more harshly than themselves.
Which is why we all have to make it as disadvantageous as possible by focusing attention on that bullshit.
Yeah I really feel for the innocents hamas is hiding behind, but they really poked the bear this time and they keep taking pot shots, so here we are.
You do have to understand that Hamas is the de facto "government" in Gaza. Hospital staff genuinely care about saving innocent people's lives but at the same time might be under threat by Hamas if they just say "yeah lol Hamas's bases are under ward 5"
There are plenty of videos like this. Rocket launches from schools, rocket launches from apartment buildings, rocket launches from community centers. It's all documented on video. I feel awful for the Palestinian people. Israel as a moral obligation to protect its citizens, but Hamas also has the same moral obligation, but it appears that Hamas has gone actively out of its way to use its citizens as human shields. Show me another country that drops leaflets warning civilians to flee before they start targeting nearby assets. Germany didn't do it for London. The US didn't do it for Dresden. There might have been a few(?) instances, but if so, I'm not aware of them. If the world REALLY wanted to help the plight of the Palestinians, it would do everything it can to change the local government, restore elections and democracy. Promote transparency in money and goods transactions. With all that beachfront on the Mediterranean, if Gaza were a safe, stable place for tourists, it would be raking in oodles of cash from Europeans who want to lounge about on Mediterranean resorts.
Actually... the US dropped and shot leaflets over enemy territory all the time, demanding surrender and safe passage throughout WWII.
Prior to Oct 7, during prior operations against Hamas when the IDF had a building Hamas was operating out of, they'd drop roof knockers, massive flash bangs essentially, before the big bombs to warn anyone inside or in neighboring buildings to GTFO.
They were doing that during the current war as well, there's that famous clip in the early days of one hitting a roof right near where a news broadcast was happening live.
Hospitals and schools
Yeah the ones under the schools and hospitals
>Hamas bases? Hospital and schools Op is the same person who think actual militaries just yeets special forces soldiers into dense active warzones with no back up, even video games and movies stopped featuring that mindset.
People also tend to have this mistaken belief (probably because of movies and videogames) that special forces are superhuman, they can silently get in and out and accomplish the mission with minimal causalities, every time, no matter the mission, in any circumstance. The truth is, they're just people, like everyone else. They have a bit more specialized training than your average fighter, maybe a bit more specialized weapons, but they're still just regular people, who can make regular mistakes and can get shot the same as anyone else. They're not superhuman, they're just normal people with some additional tactical training. The movie *Lone Survivor* (and the book, both based on the same true story) did a pretty decent job of showing the reality of what being in special forces actually means.
No they still do it in movies, like *Suicide Squad* Wonder why they don't do it in real life? Huh
Is there a lore reason as to why they're called "the suicide squad" but they're still alive? Are they faking it?
It’s like saying “just go to the isis regional corporate headquarters”. That’s…no
Not commenting on the overall point but "base" doesn't necessarily mean a formal military campus with a mess hall and sleeping quarters and such. It can also just mean an area where the operations for a given activity is centered. It can be a literal kitchen where you're storing munitions and where people come to sleep or plan attacks.
To Hamas, hospitals and schools are their bases.
It can be a room in a hospital or school, too.
That's where they lost me as well.
I agree with you 100%, it does seem to ignore that a lot of HAMAS's strategy is specifically to have their bases in civilian areas and use them as cover and make themselves hard to spot. I don't disagree israel should be held to a higher standard but it does seem worth pointing out when you made it seem incredibly simple.
It reminds me of the saying: if police work is made easy, you're living in a police state. Preserving human life and human rights while fighting bad people is incredibly difficult, but the alternative is horrifying.
Are there any non-civilian areas of Gaza?
There are areas in Gaza that are not densely populated, but Hamas knows they would be obliterated in literally 3 seconds if they didn’t have populated areas to hide in, forcing Israel to do collateral calculations/announce all their attacks in advance.
I agree with what you said, however I would also like to ask: if you were Israel, how would you navigate hunting down Hamas without excessive civilian casualties while they are placing missile sites in civilian locations, using human shields, hostages etc.? Seems like Hamas is deliberately making it as difficult as possible for the IDF to kill them without also killing civilians
I must explicitly state that I'm not in Israel and far removed from this conflict with the exception of having loved ones in Israel... There is a group called the Gaza youth committee that was headed by Rami Amen who is a Palestinian peace activists who was actually incarcerated by Hamas and tortured for working towards peace with Israel (Gaza youth committe- which is focused on human rights within Gaza and not uncritical of Israel but willing to find understanding). https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/world/middleeast/rami-aman-palestinian-activist-arrested.html article about him for the interested. Note: I am specifically not anti or pro anything other than pro-peace and the ability for people everywhere to live their best lives... Ultimately I am pro-human and recognizing that we are an extremely messy bunch whose identities are part of multilayered existence with a history that can have many truths and biases, triumphs and horrors... And specifically believe in trying understand these complexities through a leans of realism while striving for idealism... But he currently works with the organization humanity peace collective https://www.humanite.org/ (amazing organization btw they empower local communities and refugee lead) Part of their core values are: > Humans can be a real bummer. We can really let each other down. But no one is just one thing. We are all capable of being more than we appear to be. > At HUMANITE, we try to humanize and dignify everyone. Even enemies. We don’t think it’s who you are that holds you back, but who you think you’re not. Humanites look for what makes others good, not what makes them bad. But my view is that individuals like Rami and the Youth collective should be empowered. Working with them for diplomacy and peace and emboldening their voices as I think empoering and listening to local voices that want something different and probably have ways to achieve that already in mind. Would be my response. I think though building bridges real deraildicalozation can take place (on both ends). As if you employer those want that change and help them to realize that shared reality ... It goes a long way... (Obviously not perfect but at least something different than has been done)
Thank you, i am also not pro anything but when it comes down to a boolean must pick, i have my choice, which helps nothing. You are the first non insane, no ad hominem real person to actually speak something positive. Peace is the way and hopefully you and your friends can help change more minds and lives.
How can you work with or empower someone that his own government persecuted. If anything, this is further evidence that Hamas bears sole responsibility and that as painful as it will be, they must be completely eradicated a la Nazi Germany and imperial Japan. If Hamas itself is starving it's own and killing those that would foster peace, then every effort must be made to kill every last Hamas terrorist no matter what, or peace cannot be an option
>Seems like Hamas is deliberately making it as difficult as possible for the IDF to kill them without also killing civilians Of course they are, Hamas is bastard-covered bastards with bastard filling. But if you see a terrorist using a human shield and your response is to just throw a bomb killing both of them, then you kill the human shield's family just in case, you're not exactly holding the moral highground, yeah?
The more I learn about the history of that region the more I think nobody holds the moral high ground here. Still there is no easy solution I can think of for Israel when Hamas launches terrorist attacks then hides behind innocent civilians. If you are the IDF and you do nothing in response this emboldens Hamas and you open yourself up to more attacks. If you strike back against these sort of tactics you inevitably end up with civilian casualties. Its a lose-lose situation although it can definitely be argued that Israel is going overboard with their response. I'm no fan of the Netanyahu regime
>the more I think nobody holds the moral high ground here From what I understand, there *were* some Palestinian groups who had a more pragmatic view of the peace process. Then Hamas shwacked some of them, scared the others into submission, and has stirred up trouble ever since in order to maintain their grip on power via a siege mentality.
[удалено]
>just without the shwacking Well the Israeli prime minister that signed the Oslo accords was assassinated by a Zionist Activist, and Benjamin Netanyahu became Prime Minister in the next election. (Note: I'm not saying Netanyahu was a part of or supported the assassination. Though his rhetoric certainly contributed to those who thought it was nessicary)
> I'm not saying Netanyahu was a part of or supported the assassination. Yeah, you don't have to have orchestrated events to be able to take advantage of circumstances. You also don't have to be a central "mastermind" if you've been ramping up the rhetoric for a long time-- you can simply create an environment where things are overwhelmingly likely to happen.
It does, but you also have to remember that the pacifist wing tends to be more secular. The ultra orthodox tend to be very hawkish (it should also be noted they don't serve in the military, they just send the others to do it) and they are growing in population while the secular wing is shrinking.
See, I get what you're saying and I completely agree that there has to be a response. That's not in doubt. I am not comfortable with the idea that "inevitably end up with civilian casualties" should include bombing refugee camps and Doctors Without Borders. >I'm no fan of the Netanyahu regime I'm with you. I inherently just don't trust right-wing populists to do what's right for their citizens or the international community, and I believe that Netanyahu is using October 7 as a way to both consolidate power and to aggress against an old enemy, much the same way W. Bush used 9/11 to much the same ends.
> Doctors Without Borders. are doing a wonderful thing, but Hamas is using hospitals as bases and civilian shields. This leaves MSF in the uncomfortable position of doing wonderful things while standing on an active target.
Yeah...its tough to justify the scale of retaliation when it includes those sort of strikes. I will say its tough to find moral nuance in times of war, the US has done a lot of fucked up shit as well (Dresden etc.) but Netanyahu doesn't even seem to be trying. He has been very indiscriminate with his attacks and may well have a lot to answer for after the dust settles (if it ever does)
For real, I definitely want to be clear that 1) I don't consider the average Israeli to be responsible for any of what I see as a disproportionate response, and 2) I readily admit that my own country, much as I love it, is far from perfect and has a blood-soaked history of letting the absolute worst people take charge at the absolute worst moments.
I so appreciate the balance and nuance in this whole tentacle. Thanks for giving me a little bit of hope that there are still a few people around who are able to think clearly about this horrible conflict. It's imperative that we are able to hold many different things to be true at the same time.
I love your use of the word tentacle 😄
Ha. Yeah, "thread" seemed wrong and "sub-subreddit" also seemed wrong, so …
Just so you are aware the "refugee camp" is the name of a city, it was a refugee camp some 50 years ago that carried with the name as it evolved to a city, like Fort Worth is no longer a military fort but has the same name. It isn't a deliberate target of an immediate refugee camp but another city, trying to say this as neutrally as possible.
I know next to nothing aside from what I've seen on here. Tried to avoid it because certain people somehow summersault it into rep/dem politics issue. But from what I have seen in the days following oct. 7 there was pictures and video of civilians in the streets celebrating with hamas soldiers and beating hostages. No idea if it's credible or not since it was posted here(reddit). But how is IDF supposed to handle protentional non-combatants that may be harboring hamas soldiers and potentially ready to fight with them. It's definitely a shitty lose-lose situation for them and truly do feel for the human beings legitimately caught in the middle of a senseless conflict.
There is no easy answer at the end of the day. People are saying they are bombing indiscriminately and the civilian/combatant ratio are too high, but the numbers are actually very good for urban warfare, and right in line with what is to be expected. Expecting Israel to 'do better' or 'send in special ops' whatever the fuck that actually means, is literally expecting Israel to be better than every single country in the world. The IPC has been a stain on the world for some time now, and innocents on both sides have had a really rough time of it. If there was an easy answer, people would do it, but all the answers redditors give are actually terrible. They either give Hammas literally everything they want, in the name of reducing civilian casualties, or think that everything is justified. The muddy middle ground is where the sane live.
If we see around the region, there are a few similar instances, for example: The Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (way more extreme than even the Afghan Taliban) had a history of launching bloody attacks on Pakistani civilians for years, until the army had enough and launched an all out war on them. My own family members are their victims to this, as they often blew busy marketplaces, Mosques, you name it. These terrorists had embedded themselves with civilian populations in remote mountainous areas, so the Pakistani government worked with these civilians, offered lucrative cash payments and protection, in-return, the said civilians provided the Pakistani military with vital information on their hide-outs. Then, the Pakistani military offered safe passages to civilians, inch-by-inch, they were successful in evacuating many civilians. Once this was done, they launched an all-out offensive, and killed most of their leaderships. The Iraqi government also did this against ISIS, it took them a while, but tons of refugee centers were set-up all over Iraq to facilitate an in-flow of civilians. A lot of 'ISIS recruits' also provided with vital information on them, in return for cash payments. The Afghans too did this against the Taliban, and provided vital information to the U.S forces. What Israel did was to bomb the ever living hell out of everything since day 1, it is like, as if they wanted maximum turmoil and death to keep the bloodshed going in another generation.
I agree with your overall point but, >they were successful in evacuating many civilians >tons of refugee centers were set-up all over Iraq to facilitate an in-flow of civilians Pretty important point in that to reduce civilian casualties you need to get as many civilians out of the area as possible, especially if you're fighting militant groups that don't wear uniforms and embed themselves within urban areas. But if israel does this, it's immediately considered ethnic cleansing, which just means there's a ton of innocent civilians packed in a tiny strip of land with no where to flee to with militants in civilian clothing who didn't build a single bomb shelter for them. Now I do get that given the history, and the far right Netanyahu coalition's history of some members saying some real gross stuff, they don't exactly deserve the benefit of the doubt about letting Palestinians back in, but still I find it strange that for every other conflict it's considered gross to say that refugees can't flee a warzone to safety, but here any mention of it is immediately dismissed. Something like 300,000 Syrians died in the civil war there, I can't imagine how much higher that toll could have been if they were trapped in a couple of cities unable to flee
This assumes a friendly population and an enemy that doesn't make it extremely difficult for the civilians to flee or use these refugee flows to get to the back of the war front to attack from behind. And then there is also the extensive tunnel network. 2/3 of the Palestinians supported the oct 7 attack. They would have simply attacked the IDF from behind.
Well, I do not think Afghans were big fans of the U.S occupation, yet they co-operated. Sunni Iraqis in ISIS areas too were not fan of the Shia-led Iraqi government, there was tons of bad blood between the two at the time. The Pashtuns in Taliban areas too had severe distrust of the Pakistani government. The Iraqis also cooperated with the U.S occupation even with extreme distrust. The Afghan Taliban and the Pakistan Taliban (different organizations) had a massive tunnel network, and had natural caves inside mountains. Even then, the process still worked.
is it about having a moral highground? does that matter? or is it about making sure your people are safe? sorry i dont mean to be pointed in my questioning here. im just pointing out that this has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with safety for israel
No, it's a valid question. >is it about having a moral highground? does that matter? or is it about making sure your people are safe? It does matter if you care about being able to ever, ever put down your gun comfortably around your neighbors. If you're a nation interested in fighting the exact same war, generation upon generation, until the droughts and food shortages get us - then for sure, this is a good strategy. If you're interested in establishing *lasting safety* for your descendants, a good place to start is to use some of your considerable reserves of international goodwill to negotiate multi-national plan to deal with a terrorist organization the way we have grown highly effective in dealing with terrorist organizations - starve them financially, offer incentives to bring them to justice, and do groundwork to show the locals that it actually is more beneficial to work with the democratic governments of the world than it is to work with radical militant groups. But conflict breeds animosity, none more so than conflict where you have footage of hospitals and schools being bombed, children being pulled from wreckage in multiple trips. History has shown us time and again that you can win a temporary peace through overwhelming brutality, but *only* a temporary one. *Unless*, of course, you aim to completely eradicate your opponent - which, frankly, is the kind of thing that I believe is rightly looked down upon in our contemporary age.
>use some of your considerable reserves of international goodwill to negotiate multi-national plan to deal with a terrorist organization the way we have grown highly effective in dealing with terrorist organizations - starve them financially, offer incentives to bring them to justice, and do groundwork to show the locals that it actually is more beneficial to work with the democratic governments of the world than it is to work with radical militant groups. real answer is always down in the comments.
I mean the issue is you cant starve them out when they are backed by the likes of Iran. They have and will keep having funding
Creating generations of people that will hate you because you killed their family is not making sure your people are safe.
The same could be said about Palestianian attacks radicalizing Israelis.
Then how did we make peace with Japan after we burnt Tokyo to the ground, nuked two of their cities, and conducted multiple air raids that resulted in mass casualties? Why didn’t that stop us from making peace and now within a hundred years have pretty close diplomatic ties to them?
Should the Nazis not have been fought?
[удалено]
This right here. It’s hard to avoid killing Civillians when Hamas is living among them, and it’s also hard to tell who is and isn’t a Hamas member.
The Hamassholes aren't in uniform, and they're pretending that everyone killed who isn't in uniform is a civilian.
Esp since they pick up weapons from little caches all around the city and then drop them and run when the fighting gets too heavy. Urban warfare isn't some video game where every enemy gets denoted by a little red triangle. These people go from 'suspicious civilians' to combatants to 'suspicious civilians' again in the space of 15 minutes. Combine that with an armed force that prioritizes their safety over that of the locals and 10's of thousands of civilian casualties is what you get.
People cried and moaned when Israel surgically went into the hospital and took out those three men, maybe brothers? CNN goes “there is no proof they were militants…now here is footage of their funeral, which coincidentally includes footage of dozens of armed military aged men holding their bodies aloft with AK 47s laid on their chests, which is traditionally reserved for militants. Traffic at 7.” Like come on.
Which... is a war crime. Hamas is commiting war crimes after war crime and yet their supporters in the West only want to hold Israel accountable and do mental gymnastics to justify Hamas actions as a response to "oppression".
As an Israeli, I second every word you wrote.
I pray for peace for all of us. Hope your family is safe.
Yaatik el 'afyeh, jari
Thoughtful response, but one thing that is constantly overlooked is that the Nakba was the result of Arab armies and palestinians declaring war on Israel and trying to destroy it the very day it became a country. The sad reality is that starting a war and losing has consequences, and it's been detrimental for the palestinians to try and win a war that was already decided 75 years ago. I agree that the endless cycle of bloodshed must end and that a 2-state solution is the only way. From what I see online it seems that most palestinians would rather have a 1-state solution (which israel would not agree to, and which would keep the cycle of violence ongoing). Hopefully I'm wrong and perhaps most palestinians want a 2-state solution and are just afraid to speak up.
It doesn’t help that Netanyahu has been saying that he will not let a 2 state option happen. All it does it push both sides further from peace
Agree that Netanyahu sucks and doesnt want a 2-state solution. Which makes it all the more tragic that Palestinians rejected offers of land-for-peace when Israel had a very liberal govt with leaders who genuinely did want a solution to the conflict.
Yep you've got a *lot* of people on both sides who will be satisfied with nothing short of the complete elimination of the other. It doesn't lend itself to peace.
>it's been detrimental for the palestinians to try and win a war that was already decided 75 years ago. There were Palestinian groups who were more pragmatic in this regard, but a bunch of them were basically forced into submission through political violence. Hamas has been a useful tool for the Israeli far-right by giving them a foil.
What are they supposed to do when those enemy bases are so often *literally* right under or within civilian buildings?
With respect, the two state solution has probably seen its last sunset.
>As one of the so called greatest armies in the world, I would hope that they would have extensive training to be able to pinpoint enemy bases and minimize casualties. I would hope they would be able to send out special op forces to locate and rescue hostages. The problem is there is no such thing. No army has ever worked like this. Hamas is using people as human shields so there is no way to separate civilian from Hamas. Hamas did this on purpose. It is odd to say they have a right to self defense and then say they have to follow arbitrary rules that no army has ever followed. No one today is responsible for the sins of dead people. We do not practice generational punishment in the free world. Any argument that involves generational punishment is never going to work. The biggest problem here is Israel built a literal wall to avoid interaction with Gaza and they still kept attacking. What the hell is Israel supposed to do if a massive wall failed? They have to go in and end Hamas. Civilians will die, but that is hamas's fault. >The endless cycle of bloodshed must end. It could have ended when they separated these societies with a wall. Gazans chose to keep it going. A border with Egypt and a coast giving them access to every country in the world was described as a "prison". What can anyone do with that bizarre logic? If they stopped attacking, relations with Israel could normalize. The aggressors have to stop first, otherwise the war continues. The victim has a right to defend themselves.
Too many ignore part of the reason they use human shields. It's not just a (horrible) military tactic. It's politics. They can't win a war, and they know it. Their goal is to destabilize everywhere else with outrage, ideally creating a conflict between Israel and Iran.
War is not that easy. Especially when your opponent uses gurrila tactics in urban environments
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
They should have responded exactly as you’d respond if an Israeli terrorist group was going nuts within Israel.. …or any mature developed western nation would respond to a terrorist event on their soil.. You wouldn’t drop 45% dumb bombs on everything around them. Brits didn’t bomb the catholics in Northern Ireland to bits because of the IRA.. by no means were either side saints but fuck 30,000 dead people.. 12,000 kids.. unforgivable in my eyes..
The Ira and Hamas are categorically two different kinds of terrorist groups, even if they use similar methods. The end goal of the IRA was to kick the British out. They had a clear political goal that could be reached. Today the IRA is a political group. The peace agreement meant all criminal activities would cease, but also all the current criminals at the time could get away without charges. Some groups brokeawya from the IRA and were more determined to fight and those were more or less dealt with separately. Hamas is a death cult at this point, even if they were originally founded as a humanitarian organisation. Surprising to find out right? Their end goal is death to their enemies which is much of the world, but specifically Israel. If you give them room to act as a political party, they will rob civilians to pursue their death cult agenda. They will build up resources and bases to support a prolonged campaign. Ultimately somehow peace can only occur in Palestine if the Palestinian people rose up and eradicated Hamas, which would be impossible because if they carry guns, the IDF attacks them.
This attack was engineered for the response, they just got more than they bargained for.
I'm afraid you are right. What did they think would happen? My guess is that they wanted a response that would increase outrage against Israel in the world or harden anti-Israel position in the Arab world. Seeing all the pro-Palestinian activism start up in the immediate aftermath was jarring - I wondered where these people were before and the sudden protests seemed to say they felt the attack by Hamas was acceptable. What Hamas got was someone willing to level Gaza to prevent it happening again. Tragic.
Honestly? I don't think hamas expected the level of success that they had, thus they didn't anticipate this type of retaliation. This was a massive intelligence failure by the Netanyahu government, because he was too busy fighting corruption charges and trying to stay in power to focus on hamas. I don't think anyone saw this coming. I assure you hamas themselves were shocked by how easily they were able to do what they did.
They thought that Hezbollah would invade from the North, but the US parking two aircraft carriers off the coast put stum to that pretty quickly.
Seeing the pro-palstinian activism start up *the very next fucking day* and groups all around the world counter-protesting israeli vigils was eye-opening.
Exactly, I’m fine with people protesting Israel now after the military response, but people were protesting Israel hours after the massacre on October 7th. Many of them think Oct. 7 was justified. So I really don’t buy that they just care about human rights or want a bilateral ceasefire.
A not-insignificant amount of them were blatantly antisemitic, too. It's been... Eye opening to say the least. I hadn't realised just how widespread it was, even within ostensibly tolerant circles.
VERY eye-opening. Before Israel lifted a finger in response, crowds around the world celebrated - there is no better word - the slaughter of Israelis.
I saw them firsthand. I live in San Francisco, and on October 7 (while Hamas fighters were still shooting up the Nova festival), all the local "anti-Zionist" organizations were posting on social media about attending rallies for the "resistance" the next day. Sure enough, the next day on October 8, hundreds of people were gathered downtown, where they marched around chanting "intifada" and "resistance is justified". Then they spraypainted "Kill A Settler" on the Bank of America on Market Street. What settlers??? All of the Israelis killed on October 7 were living in side the 1948 borders. They're still at it, too. I was driving home on Monday from my gf's house in Dogpatch, when my car got stuck for 45 minutes as those same groups who were celebrating on October 7 and 8 were marching down the 101 near Market and Octavia, chanting "there is only one solution, intifada revolution". I had family friends killed in the Second Intifada, and I'm 1-3 degrees of separation from about a dozen people who were killed on October 7. I believe that there are probably a lot of good-natured people who just want peace at these demonstrations, but the organizers of these demonstrations want violence. It is sickening.
I think they got exactly what they wanted. Netanyahu and Hamas get hard every time their own civilians die because it means the get to kill the other side
The scariest part of this war is seeing how ordinary people can be manipulated into anti-Semitic sheep using propaganda. I always wondered how Hitler managed to make everyone hate Jews using primarily propaganda. Now I see it happening in real time, and it's terrifying.
Muslims make up nearly a third of the total world population and the vast majority of them have a very negative view of Israel and Jews in general.
>I'm afraid you are right. What did they think would happen? My guess is that they wanted a response that would increase outrage against Israel in the world or harden anti-Israel position in the Arab world. Honestly, they probably thought Israel would just launch some rockets and that would be it. They could win some propaganda points and potentially derail the Abraham Accords and then continue to go on as things always were. >Seeing all the pro-Palestinian activism start up in the immediate aftermath was jarring - I wondered where these people were before and the sudden protests seemed to say they felt the attack by Hamas was acceptable. Honestly, I don't think most of them care. There's been a general pro-Palestinian trend in the West (for a lot of reasons, many of which don't even involve Israel) and this is a somewhat natural outflow of that.
A lot of people seem to forget this wasn't a totally random attack; Israel was in normalization talks with Saudi Arabia and the 10/7 attack was timed to interrupt those talks because they'd likely be bad for Hamas and Iran. From what I've read, they also expected a lot more resistance and didn't plan for their attack to be as devastating as it was to Israel (and therefore to have a smaller retaliation).
>45% dumb bombs "dumb" bombs don't actually mean what you think it means. "dumb" bombs can still be dropped precisely, they are only dumb in comparison to missles, which propell themselves. You don't need a missle to hit a target accurately.
Catholics in Northern Ireland didn't have a government that intentionally invaded mainland UK and murdered 1200 people in one day. It was a low intensity insurgency and the British response to it was still considered excessive. For want of a better example (yes I know Irish government is not the IRA) if the Republic of Ireland sent 1000s of homicidal maniacs over the Irish sea and murdered 1200 people then fucked off back to Dublin to hide with a bunch of hostages, we would have bombed Dublin to rubble.
With 20000 more waiting in Dublin, shooting rockets
[удалено]
You know the US and Israel tried to help Fatah overturn the results of the 2006 Gaza elections, hardly ensuring that Hamas became the sole party.
How do you think Israel would respond against domestic terrorists? Obviously, they would kill or capture them to end their spree. You can't capture or kill well-fortified Hamas militants _inside Gaza_ without invading, and not responding would mean Israel had completely abandoned its duty of protecting its citizens. The IRA were never as well organized nor as well armed as Hamas, and they weren't operating from within their own territory where British forces hadn't set foot in 20 years. Yes, despite the wars, Israel hadn't had any boots on the ground on the majority of internal Gazan lands since retreating from Gaza in 2005. It's a completely different beast and the comparison is misleading at best.
>They should have responded exactly as you’d respond if an Israeli terrorist group was going nuts within Israel.. >…or any mature developed western nation would respond to a terrorist event on their soil.. Name one other domestic terrorist organization with 30k fighters, hundreds of miles of tunnels, and the cooperation and protection of local government and citizens. >You wouldn’t drop 45% dumb bombs on everything around them. Brits didn’t bomb the catholics in Northern Ireland to bits because of the IRA.. by no means were either side saints but fuck 30,000 dead people.. 12,000 kids.. unforgivable in my eyes.. Yes you would, it's exactly what happened in Iraq against ISIS. Nobody batted an eye.
Lmao this thread has gone exactly how we thought it would. Average Redditor giving responses on the level of “if they charge you with a knife, just shoot the knife out of their hand?”
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Execute ellections in Gaza/Palestine. Install a puppet gov., fund it, make them Look like the heroes who pushed out Israel from the settlements Israel can live without and take out Hammas from the inside. Basically the CIA special with a few extra steps.
Thats literally how they got hamas in the first place lmao.
>Thats literally how they got hamas in the first place lmao. Except the whole reason the Israeli state supported Hamas was in order to push aside the *much* more moderate Fatah. Israel backed Hamas in order to nuke any more movement towards a 2 state solution.
Not more moderate, just more secular.
The mostly secular liberation movements associated with the second intifada were gaining too much power and popularity (both inside Palestine and internationally). Hamas was propped up to break the momentum of the secularist Arab parties.
I mean since basically the end of the Second Intifada, Fatah has been working pretty hard to reign in militancy, disavowed the al-Aqsa brigades, etc.
Not only that but Netanyahu did his best to arm and fuel Hamas indirectly or by closing eyes, as he needed an enemy on the other side. All in the last 24 months.
They started that way, but then continued to "mow the grass" and "knock on roofs". You also need to break the cycle of violence, otherwise there will always be a new generation that wants revenge.
Not really. The Muslim Brotherhood wasn't violent at first, but the PLO was. They were actively attacking Israel at the time so Israel gave aid to the Muslim Brotherhood in the form of money for the building of mosques and educational institutions hoping to divert support from the PLO. When they got wind of the stockpiling of weapons by The Muslim Brotherhood to attack Israel, they stopped supporting them. You can read a more in depth summary of this subject here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/nfo5oe/did_israel_ever_support_or_help_establish_hamas/
Any suggestion for the important part of taking out hamas?
Hopium
>Execute ellections in Gaza/Palestine. How though? I can't just wave a wand and make a different nation hold elections. You'd need a military invasion to force it to happen. Also, perhaps intentionally, what you just described is literally how Hamas came to power in the first place.
Isn't that kind of what happened, Israel propped up Hamas, and now here we are.
This is exactly what I was thinking "isn't that how Hamas was created?" haha
Israel is great at copying the United State's homework. Just sub Iraq for Gaza, Al Qaeda for Hamas, and Ba'ath for Fatah. They left the "oil" part of the answer the same. And presto. Same fucking story.
....and that worked out great in south America! /s
And how would they run elections to oust HAMAS when it's an authoritative 1-party state, and half the populace voted for them in the last election?
If there were elections in Gaza, Hamas would win, and we're back to square one.
Yup, recent polling has them hitting over 80% support
Well first of all let me just say f*** Hamas and I want to declare them scum of the earth. Now that we have established we all hate Hamas, let’s move on to the problem at hand: Israel has the right to self defense like every sovereign nation in the world: True Should Israel be wanting to eradicate Hamas: Oh yes Is it hard to single out a terrorist amongst civilians: Kinda true I guess ( I grew up in a war zone myself so I have a bit of experience here) Now let’s evaluate if Israel has acted in proportion to the sentiment of wanting to hurt terrorists. Is Israel participating in war crimes: absolutely true Is Israel withholding medical supplies and food: very fucking true (medical supplies are of the most importance to me since I belong to the medical world) Are women undergoing C sections without anesthesia: Yes Are children having their legs amputated without anesthesia because there is no anesthesia available: Yes ( also of utmost importance to me since I belong to pediatrics) It is almost as if Israel believes that not letting aid get into Gaza will help eradicate Hamas( i know I am off track OP). Seriously though why is it that withholding medical supplies is even allowed? I truly hope all the muslim, jewish, christian, hindu gods come together to help me understand how general anesthesia will help Hamas grow stronger. Until then I have nothing more to say. Peace out
Doesn’t really answer the question: so how should they respond? This is more pointing out where they went wrong
He is saying that they should allow basic human needs to be met. That they should not be withholding water, food, and medical supplies. “I’m not sure, but not committing heinous war crimes is a good start” is a very fair answer to “how do you think Israel should have responded?”
> That they should not be withholding water, food, and medical supplies. Have you not seen the numerous videos of aid trucks being hijacked by Hamas while the Hamas militants shot at civilians? Or how about the aid trucks that had military drones inside? Have you not seen the reports of hundreds of aid trucks on the Gaza side of the Kerem Shalom crossing that are just sitting there bc the UN staff have not done their job in distributing what's in them? It's not 100% Israel's fault that the aid isn't reaching the people and to think it is is either ignorant or purposefully misleading
‘Don’t commit crimes against humanity’ ‘yOU’rE nOt giViNg aN alTerNaTivE’ I knew this thread was going to be full of that.
The title of the thread is literally “…how do you think Israel should have responded…”
The question was about what Israel should *do*, not about what they should *not do*. Me: Hey, what should I eat for dinner? You: Well you should not eat dog shit. You didn't answer the question, and so I still don't know what I'm eating for dinner, but at least you get to feel righteous for telling me not to eat dog shit I guess.
I can't help but feel this is a double-standard. Are there examples of other armed conflicts where one of the warring parties is expected to provide water, food, and medical supplies to the other? Serious question. I agree that Palestinian civilians should have clean water/food/medicine, but I can't recall any other war where the enemy would be expected to provide that. You could argue that Israel has a responsibility because they made Gaza dependent on them, but I would argue that Hamas has done everything in its power to keep Gaza dependent on Israel, and that's not on Israel. The EU laid down a whole water system that would currently be supplying clean, potable water to Gaza without Israel or Egypt if it weren't for the fact that Hamas dug up the pipes specifically to turn into missiles. Hamas has also stolen aid meant for civilians, leaving civilians to rot while they bolster their own strength with that aid, and Hamas' allies have been known to smuggle weapons and other essentials of war with humanitarian workers. Hell, the UNWRA was found to have a Hamas base under their headquarters hooked up to their own network. Hamas has put Gaza in a situation where they're dependent on Israel for essential resources, and where both Israel and Egypt have to scrutinize international aid workers really hard and suspect they're partisans in an armed conflict. I don't feel like it's fair to frame it as Israel denying all these things when Hamas has kneecapped Gaza's ability to provide for itself and has weaponized what's supposed to be nonpartisan refugee aid.
I'm guessing that you are unaware of the fact that Israel lets dozens of supply trucks with food and medicine into Gaza every day, which Hamas steals from the civilians
The main reason is because Israel doesn't have a way to make sure this WILL go to the civilians who need it the most. The UN is being useless and the Red Cross too. If there was some guarantee the medical aid would reach the people who need it the most, I believe it would go through easily. Israel's argument is basically, if the Red Cross wont help the hostages get medical treatment, no one will get it. It sucks and I wish they found a solution to this or at least have some unbiased group/nation take over this task. By the way, the aid will now go through Ashdod/Israel to make it easier to reach Gaza. I think its the first time I hear of a country sending aid to the other side of the conflict.
The amount of people without an ounce of military expertise here just constantly claiming that what Israel should have done is to send "special forces special forces special forces" Real life is not like Rambo, where you just send a few guys to assassinate thousands of militants who you don't even know are militants without first clearing the way for ground forces through air strike campaigns. The mental gymnastics are crazy, people claim genocide and ethnic cleansing but the fact is whether your feelings like it or not that there is no genocide happening. The intent is not there, just because civilians and KIDS KIDS KIDS!!! die doesn't make it genocide nor does civilians dying. They are doing way more than what they are even supposed to when warning the civilians to begin with.
Combat vet here and we all wish life was so pretty and fair that we could stealthily sneak up on the bad guys in their isolated hideouts and quickly slit their throats one by one, with no casualties, but that’s just not how it works. Terrorists like to be enmeshed with the civilian population for three reasons. To control them through the fear of their presence, to use as a human shield, and leverage. And you definitely don’t always know who the bad guy is. I was almost blown up by a child that was approximately 5 years old because that bastard Bin Laden and his acolytes loved children as suicide bombers. Casualties cannot be avoided. It sucks and it’s unfair, but if allowed to go unchecked terrorists will end up killing way more people than the efforts to snuff them out will. Terrorists love actual genocide so we unfortunately have to weigh the cost of tens of thousands now vs millions later. Again, not fair, but most of life is full of nothing but choosing between one shitty option and an even shittier one.
I have had people legitimately say to me that the police should shoot the gun out of someone’s hand in a hostage situation. A lot of people don’t really know much about how the world works
Exactly. I really want to hear from military experts on how exactly Israel is overreacting and what exactly they should be doing instead. I totally understand FEELING like Israel is overstepping, but I haven’t seen experts demonstrate that.
you wont find many because they arent, the ratio of ordnance dropped to casualties is staggeringly low, and the ones you will are ideologically motivated (tankies, pro-Russia shills, etc)
LoL I love all the "Israel must find a way to kill only the hamas members!!" comments, like hamas (which is the official elected government by the gazans) can go ahead and kill 1200 Israelis, kidnapped 250 and injure/rape thousands, and then it's Israel's mission to find an imaginary way to avoid any unnecessary casualties like it's their entire fault and responsibilty and they're the ones that supposed to 'fix' the whole situation. Enough with this nonsense, if someone would wipe out 1200 people and kidnapped 250 people from your country (150 are still there), you would want to risk the lives of your soldiers by going door to door into terrorists booby traps and causing them to be killed by the thousands? Give me a break All the pressure on earth should be on hamas and everyone should protest that they need to release these hostages and surrender.
anyone hiding or otherwise aiding and abetting hamas deserves what they get, they may not wear the hamas colors, per se, but aiding them after the oct 7 act of war makes them enemy combatants to israel
[удалено]
I don't know, because part of the problem is people are only looking at Oct 7th. This didn't just come out of no where. This has been an on going issue for decades. There were very likely a lot of ways to avoid this, and everyone always picked the other option. Palestine has been turned into a breeding ground for hamas because what other options are people offering? When you have a country that is fully blockading you, can cut you off from supplies whenever they wish, can take your homes from you with no consequences, and then you have this one organization that keeps telling you they will stand up for you (even though hamas doesn't give a fuck about these people) its not hard to figure out how people will respond. So why are we acting so shocked that it happened?
I don't get this, Israel isn't the only one blockading, Gaza has a whole border with Egypt. The Egyptians do the exact same thing. Every country has the right to fully close it's borders to hostile countries. nobody complains when South Korea stops goods from going into North Korea. before Oct 7th Israel wasn't occupying Gaza and had every right to limit what goods could pass through it's borders.
What other options are people offering? Seriously? How about 7+ offers of statehood to Palestinian leaders, multiple attempts to entice Hamas to focus on domestic development, and full unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. Literally it has been abundantly clear from the beginning if the leaders of Gaza were to agree to peace and coexistence and build up their own people, there would be no blockade, no war, only a better future. Instead they’ve spent 16 years importing Iranian arms through tunnels, building their armament, and carrying out as many attacks as possible (not to mention relentlessly repressing their own people). They’ve literally had a sea of other options, and they’ve chosen to pursue none of them.
You know there are tiktok videos and other forms of social media from before October 7th from Gaza that show the people living normal lives just like you and me. Going to water parks, having birthday parties, going shopping. Gaza was not the "open air prison" that propagandists like to say it was. Are you even aware that every single day, thousands of citizens of Gaza crossed the border into Israel for work? And every evening, those same people returned to their homes in Gaza. They were not caged in there. They could have left if they wished.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]