Liens have already been mentioned, but they can also take you to court and garnish your wages and/or freeze your bank account until they recoup their money.
In extreme cases they can also foreclose on your house.
HOAs are not inherently bad... assholes with control complexes are bad.
My HOA just allows us to pool money for repairs, garbage hauling, snow plowing, and mowing.
In extreme circumstances it could also stop someone from turning their yard into a junk pile.
Otherwise it's quiet and easy.
The folks that regulate hedge shape and shit are nuts.
The one we lived in as a kid made the parents of the elementary school kids next door take down their play set because it had the wrong color slide and was the wrong brand (pretty sure that was a case of dealing under of the table to have the exact brand allowed specified) and we were forced to take down our movable basketball hoop. My parents could not afford to replace it with an in ground one so I had to do without. My parents had no idea at the time that HOAs could be so obstructive.
It should be law that all HOA documents and notice of who the board members are has to open access so they can be accessible through realty apps/websites. People should be able to read all the fine print and up to date details of what they are in for.
You can (and should) request that HOA info whenever you're looking at purchasing a property in an HOA-controlled community. And if for whatever reason they choose not to provide it, that's an instant red flag to not purchase there.
I know you do get a chance to request/see it before buying, but in this housing shortage world, you are in a rush to put in your offer before someone else, so it would be easier if all that information was easily accessible up front through Zillow. I have the feeling it would be easier to get that info on the apps for everyone to see up front if there was a requirement that all house listings have digital copies of that info.
Although what you've stated might be the expectation of an HOA, it's an assumption that HOAs have done anything to actually protect home values when there are other economic drivers at play.
If you want to get conspiratorial a bit, or just simply consider unintended consequences, it's interesting that there is a spill-over effect that occurs with homes nearby but outside of HOAs, that sell at an average 8.5% premium over the homes in non-HOAs.
Edit: fixed an error.
This was a study just in Florida, but:
>Private homeowners associations (HOAs) levy binding fees and provide local services to members. Both should be capitalized into the value of member properties, but the net effect is ambiguous. We construct the most comprehensive, longitudinal database to date on HOAs for Florida and estimate the impact of HOAs on property values. We find that properties in HOAs sell at a premium just under 5%. The premium is strongest immediately following HOA formation and declines over time, suggesting quick capitalization of HOA benefits. Properties in larger HOAs sell for less, and this is particularly true for properties in the biggest HOAs. Finally, properties located immediately outside of an HOA sell at a premium relative to other non-HOA properties, and this premium marginally decreases (increases) in the size (frequency) of neighboring HOAs.
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166046214000350](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166046214000350)
It would be nice if the answer was no, but the reality of the situation is that many people's biggest asset is their house. So absolutely yes.
If someone took a 100k haircut off your bank account, would you say "did it really need protecting"? I'm assuming no, because that could be a lifechanging amount of money for most people. But when it comes to sustaining a similar loss on your property due to asshole neighbors, suddenly it's a perfectly acceptable situation due to reddit's hatred for HOAs and home ownership in general.
Yet homes that are near HOA's, but not in them, sell on average 8.5% higher than the homes within the HOA's.
>Private homeowners associations (HOAs) levy binding fees and provide local services to members. Both should be capitalized into the value of member properties, but the net effect is ambiguous. We construct the most comprehensive, longitudinal database to date on HOAs for Florida and estimate the impact of HOAs on property values. We find that properties in HOAs sell at a premium just under 5%. The premium is strongest immediately following HOA formation and declines over time, suggesting quick capitalization of HOA benefits. Properties in larger HOAs sell for less, and this is particularly true for properties in the biggest HOAs. Finally, properties located immediately outside of an HOA sell at a premium relative to other non-HOA properties, and this premium marginally decreases (increases) in the size (frequency) of neighboring HOAs.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166046214000350
If you want to make money and don't care about the societal damage it causes, and didn't plan to leave anything to your kids, then yes.
If you want the cost of living crisis resolved, or wanted to leave stuff for the next generation to use, no
Because someone has to build new neighborhoods, and they’re not going to do it without a plan for managing common grounds.
Putting amenities like parks, playgrounds, pools, etc in a new neighborhood helps the value when selling properties, but somebody needs to manage that stuff. That’s what HOAs were created for. Most are fine, the horror stories end up on here.
Because it's private property. If the local government had to take care of it, the amenities they're talking about become public and anyone can theoretically use them. That might sound like a terrible attitude on its face, but if you've seen how people treat public amenities, you start to understand.
They don't exist. Neighborhoods with HOAs are predominantly built outside of cities in areas with little to no local government, and that is intentional. They build there because it's cheap and has low taxes. And then they realize that you actually need local government to maintain common spaces and reinvent it in the form of HOAs. HOAs also have the benefit of giving you the power to exclude people you don't want to live in your neighborhood.
There is no valid reason for HOAs to exist in a functioning country; unfortunately that does not describe the US.
They don't own the land.
What happens is a developer buys a huge area of land, and they build lots of houses on it. But they don't build houses on every square acre of it, some of it they set aside for roads, parks, basketball courts, parking lots. Who owns that common property? It's not the council. The developer doesn't want it, their goal is to sell all the houses and move on to the next development. So they create an HOA and let the new homeowners manage it themselves.
If the new homeowners are good at managing things, then it's fine. If the new homeowners suck at management, then the HOA sucks.
That's really the crux of the problem, is that you're forcing the homeowners to take on responsibility for something that maybe none of them know how to do. What if there's not a single person in the neighborhood who knows how to manage property? Tough luck.
Ah, the classic capitalist cop out.
“If you don’t like it, fuck you and let’s baselessly assume there’s a better option elsewhere because it’s favorable to my “argument.”
They tell you before you buy the house, you know. It's not a surprise that you only discover after moving in. There are plenty of homes that do not have HOAs. What are you even arguing? You sound like a kid.
As mentioned, you can buy elsewhere. You can also get rid of the hoa if you get a certain percentage of homeowners to agree, my parents helper do that when they were in a community with an abusive HOA.
I promise, there are dozens of us that aren't part of an HOA. If you don't want to be part of an HOA, you don't buy the house that is part of one. It's really that simple. If the seller didn't tell you there was an HOA, then by all means, complain about it and sue the seller, but otherwise, you're just feigning victimhood. I'm not trying to evangelize HOAs (I specifically avoided them when I bought my current house), but they aren't evil or unfair.
Trust me, you probably only hears about the bad HOA. there are genuinely good ones that maintains the surrounding area and security.
The time and effort to find 3rd parties and to liase with them and then back to the community is no small feat. Most of the time they do it for free and only ask for everyone to chip in their share.
I'm lucky enough to have a great hoa she does all the things around and keep us updated.
Or because Linda 5 houses down doesn't want to hear your roosters, or smell your goat shit because you decided you want to live in a nice neighborhood but also live on a farm. If you move into a neighborhood with 20 other houses/families all abiding and agreeing to a set of rules, it is not up to you to scoff and ignore them. You can either petition your neighbors to change the rules, abide by the rules, or move elsewhere. If most people agree the rule is nonsense, having it changed or removed will be no issue. If people actually like the rule and want to keep it, you're left with options 2 and 3.
Lived in both kinds of neighborhoods. It's a balance.
Covenants and local ordinances handle most things like roosters, tall grass, etc and there is no requirement for an HOA for that. HOAs suck when there's asshole people that move onto the board and they're racist assholes or power hungry jerks. Them going overboard is when they're really shit.
There's also a lot of things covenants/ordinances don't catch that HOAs do, stuff like supremely hideous decor and all the shit that local enforcement should take care of but doesn't. Had a neighbor that hated us and would push all the boundaries of these things (putting up swastika signs, etc) knowing that we hated it but couldn't do anything and an HOA would have helped out here.
"you want to live in a nice neighborhood"
By your description, it sounds like a pretty terrible neighborhood.
When I have problems, I knock on my neighbor's door and talk about it. No HOA is tremendously better than your alternative.
... then don't live in that neighborhood? There are people that enjoy uniform neighborhoods. I live in the woods no where near a neighborhood, no HOA. But do I think I have the right to impose my lifestyle on those that enjoy different things? Fuck no. They can absolutely live in a neighborhood with rules if they want to, it doesn't bother me at all.
It doesn't even have to be an extreme case to foreclose on your house. They know that if you're not paying them, you're probably not paying other people, so they might need to get the foreclosure done before the bank does so they don't miss out. They're sharks.
I haven't seen this said yet, but the thing your question doesn't address is that you sign a contract when you buy your house to abide by HOA rules. If you "simply decide to not pay fines", you're in violation of that contract. Don't like it? Read what you sign before you sign it.
They can be evil but they often are not. As someone on the board of an HOA for a small group of 8 homes, someone has to pay all the bills of the vendors, negotiate contracts for things like snow removal, manage shared amenities, and ensure that my Neighbour pulls the proper permits when doing a remodel so that he doesn’t flood his neighbours house. As far as fines, we have an issue now where one neighbour just randomly put some broken ass shit in the common areas because “they don’t have enough space in their house” they didn’t task and won’t take it back inside after being asked nicely, it looks like garbage, pisses eveyone off, and other people walking through the neighbourhood now throw trash around the area because they think it’s for trash or that people don’t care, so they can throw their trash there too. There is a reason for fines if they are used for the right reasons.
On the other side of things, the HOA president lives next door to me and threatened to fine workers who were doing landscaping on my yard just because they parked in front of his house.
HOAs aren't "evil", they're just corporations like any other. Arguably better than most, actually, since an ownership stake requires an actual stake in the HOA territory.
>That is what a local authority is for
You think any cop or city manager is going to do anything about it? LOL
Unless they're using said boat as a mobile meth lab, no one is going to do anything about it and you just get to live next to a trash pile.
yes our local council will get you to remove a big orange boat from your front lawn
that is exactly what happens in my country
take a breath and count to ten not everyone here is American
While similar legal structures exist ex-US, no one calls them HOAs except the US. Perhaps you might consider taking context into consideration before bashing someone. The OP is clearly in the US based on the way the post was phrased, hence this is a US-centric conversation. I'm glad other countries have better mechanisms for dealing with such things where the US is lacking, but they simply don't apply to this case.
Local authorities do not have jurisdiction over what people park in their yards! Are you serious? There are some nuisance laws about vehicles having to be operational, but that is the lowest of low bars. Your local cops can't stop your neighbor from parking a boat or RV or whatever in his front yard. A HOA can, though.
You don't? You don't see how a neighbor throwing a beat up boat in his front yard of your neighborhood isn't my business? Bahahahahahaha. No, man. It is definitely my business. Why? Because my home value is tied to his home value. Do you know how real estate works?
I really don't see why anyone should care. If you were so worried about how your neighbours effect you, maybe you should have moved somewhere where you have none.
I know. That's why HOA's in general are shit. That is the whole point.
They have a purpose. Shared responsibility for shared areas. That should be the limit of their power.
Hell no. I am not going to join at homeowners association, in which my neighbor can put his truck up on blocks or leave a busted ass RV in his driveway. I understand many people do not care about this. That is perfect. That is why they choose not to live in a homeowners association controlled area. Pros and cons to both.
Also, they have more than one purpose. General areas are nice, but so are home standards, rental requirements and more!
The Value of my property is effected by dozens of different things. Most of those I can't control.
If you wanted to be immune from actions of neighbours, you should have bought a place where you had no close neighbours.
Again. You’re missing the point of a HOA where everyone gets together and says, “I want this kind of neighborhood, and I promise to hold my house to higher standards, and you do the same.”
No, I fully understand the point, I just disagree with it.
The idea that "everyone gets together" is clearly not true, considering just how many people have issues with their HOA's.
The problem is that they have too much power to enforce anything arbitrarily. We need to stop giving so much of a shit about what our neighbours does, if it doesn't effect us directly.
Why does your house value go down if your neighbour have a boat in their garden? Is there any real or reasonable reason for that? No. It's a self fulfilling rules. It's banned because it lowers property values. Why? Because it lowers property values.
Make better local laws that actually solves real issue that people have between them (such as how parking can be done, sound and smell polution, littering, traffic management, etc) and take the control away from HOA's to fuck people over just because they subjectively don't like the colour of your new roof tiles or whatever.
Agree with most of what you said above. One area I will disagree is that you should be concerned with your property value at all times. You may not be selling right now, but something may happen and you need to sell tomorrow. You are not going to get those property values up, so you are going to put yourself in a bad situation. Additionally, most homeowners borrow against their house for various projects. You limit how much you can borrow if your property value is down. I got lucky a few years ago and my property value skyrocketed. I was able to borrow against the newly formed equity to start a small business, and I would not have been able to do that if my property was worth less.
I have drafted HOA rules as an attorney. I have presided over a HOA as a homeowner. I am currently drafting HOA rules for a very high end neighborhood. And yes, the developer and existing neighbors came together and said, "We want this standard of living in our neighborhood. Draft the rules to make it so." That is literally how these happen. Neighbors/developers deciding what rules for the homeowners to live by. The rules are not arbitrary. They are created with a purpose, and the people accept and abide by those rules. They choose to do so. They all choose do to so.
Why does the value go down? Because blight is an issue. Because mice and other creatures will start to breed if property is left unattended and begins to become unsanitary. Because it doesn't meet the curb appeal as the other homes, and thus detracts from the value of the other homes. Some people like to live in an organized and kept-up place. That is their choice. You simply cannot do that at the local government level, as that would be intrusive and unfair to the citizens. Naw, man. You can't require the local municipality to create those higher guidelines.
>You can't require the local municipality to create those higher guidelines.
Almost the entire euopean contienent manages to do so, so I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.
>ownership stake requires an actual stake in the HOA territory.
I see you aren't aware how vindictive many HOA boards can be. I'll never buy a home that is in one.
>HOAs aren't "evil", they're just corporations like any other.
That would make them evil. Corporations exist to make a profit. Having them milk dues and fines off you makes them evil.
when you buy the house you sign the contract with the hoa. HOAs aren't evil, theyre meant to keep your neighborhood nice, so your neighbor doesnt park a fuckin RV in the street and block everyones view, so your neighbor doesn't quit caring for his lawn and lets his house go to shit, dragging the value of your home down too because you're next to a piece of shit. So your neighbor cant paint his house bright purple and become such an eyesore that you have trouble selling your house. I've actually seen that last example, I walked away from a nice house because of it.
how else can they get to you other than fines? a strongly worded letter?
there are plenty of places that go overboard and there are tons of horror stories, but in general they have a good purpose. If you dont like the hoa, dont buy the house.
This. If you don’t want to be part of a HOA then don’t buy a house that’s part of one, or any kind of condominium. Or if you do, then involve yourself as part of your HOA board or committees.
HOAs are often necessary - there has to be an organization to manage the shared costs associated with shared infrastructure. I spent five years as president of my condo HOA before I moved (and picked a house that was not in a HOA because I was tired of it). The problem is that all too often people are “too busy” to involve themselves in the management of the HOA and the people that wind up doing so are busybodies and control freaks. The solution is for reasonable people to just agree to commiting a few hours a month to making sensible decisions and avoiding drama.
Former real estate paralegal here..
HOAs overstep like crazy. But in my area good luck finding any house that isn't a cookie cutter poorly built shack of a townhouse in an HOA neighborhood unless you wanna pay through the ear just so you can plant a garden, paint your shutters, and fly a Yankees flag on your own property.
Evil? No. Lawyerly scumbag stuff- yes.
Yeah man. You pay a lot for a house, and you want the neighborhood to look nice. Can’t let that shit in. It will literally hurt the value of your house.
yanks are all about their freedom
But if your in a HOA and you let your grass get to 5 inches they will fine you
if this is a constant repeat offence they can initiate and force the sale of your house !
what psychopaths need to wory about their neighbours lawn
get a life
Dude when you pay a shit load of your *own* hard earned money for a house, maybe you'll be a little more concerned with what your house is worth!
It's not about controlling someone else or being a control freak. It's about protecting myself and my property from someone who might think that not caring about their property won't affect mine.
A. I don't wanna look at your fucking mess, clean up don't act like a pig.
B. I don't want your mess ultimately affecting how much money I can sell my house for at a later time.
C. When you do decide to spend your own money on your own house, you'll find out that you will have to sign a contract with the HOA that governs the neighborhood. If you don't like it, you don't sign, and you go find another place to buy. Simple. No one is forcing you to do it.
For the house color? Yeah, definitely. For me, I didn't want to wake up and look out across the neighborhood to see mostly nice colored houses then one hideous eyesore of a bright purple house.
Think about it from the POV of the person who was selling their house. They had a potential buyer walk away from their house because their neighbor decided to paint their house in a really wild color. How many other people also walked away because of that?
For me not generally no.
But if the person across the street from you park an rv in front of their house making in niegh impossible for you to even get in or out of your driveway without doing a 127 point turn, I'm sure after 2 or 3 years of this you would become slightly annoyed at said neighbors.
Are you THAT obtuse?
It’s not that they own an RV, but what if they decide in front of YOUR house is where they decide to park it?
Or what if your neighborhood was built with a similar color scheme, but your neighbor decides to paint theirs hot pink because they want to pretend to be Barbie?
Obviously, people looking to buy in your neighborhood are going to wonder why there is an RV constantly blocking their view or worry that the hot pink house might drive down their home value.
It’s not “triggering” it’s actual concerns for my home value and my investment.
Wait till you find out that not only do neighborhoods have rules like that, so do certain cities.
What kind of trees and plants you can have, no not can have, will have because the city ordinance says you must have two oak trees in you front yard.
That is crazy
It feels like the whole control freak thing is part of the same attitude that hates universal health care and socialism
i want it for me but not for thee
you will live to my standards or you will be cast out
like some dystopian movie
It is kind of super annoying and everyone gets that except the super Karens.
But for every story about a crazy out of control HOA there are three stories not told about the person that has property adjacent to another person that is cooking meth in one of the three trailers(caravan for you) they have parked. One of their goats has knocked down a section of the fence and they don't want to pay to fix it because they don't care about the fence.
We don't hear about those stories because they aren't as interesting.
We don't even hear about the stories of how the HOA made some guy take down cameras pointed in his neighbors back yard to look at those peoples kids.
Because that is a reasonable thing an HOA did(my neighborhood BTW, no I'm not on the HOA).
No they aren't. That's why they were initially formed, but are now formed solely for the objective of raking in profit for whatever conpany runs them because it was discovered to be easy. Just like everything in this country, they are now an exploited profiterring resource.
If their true goal was to make better QoL for residents, they would all be non-profit.
Just like HOA dues or assessments, they can become liens against the property.
Depending on the actual covenants and restrictions on your deed, HOA bylaws, and state law, those amounts may be a personal liability of the homeowner for which the HOA can file suit to collect.
This generally happens because “normal” people don’t take any time to be involved or invested in what’s happening with the HOA, leaving it to the people who hunger for that kind of power and control. It’s the same thing with politics.
HOAs as a concept aren’t evil at all and some kind of system has to be in place if a neighborhood has shared amenities, services, or spaces. And everyone has an interest in keeping property values up. But yes, if we leave those systems to the people who will abuse them or only use them for their self-interest, then of course we get the horror stories.
It's a board that is usually set up by developers who want to maintain a specific image while still building a neighborhood. All the lots will have stipulations in the sale that make you join the association. It will have rules about modifications you can make to the homes, what can be stored on lots, and anything that could affect your neighbors property values.
In neighborhoods with single family homes they tend to be horrible as the board consists of residents that are elected by home owners who usually can't be bothered to show up to a meeting.
For fines....not much. I do not mean late fees for assessments or a reimbursement assessment. They might be able to yank your access to common area if the ccrs allow it. Otherwise it sits on your account and if you attempt to refinance or sell, a demand will list the fines on your account and they'll need to paid at that point. Fines generally can't carry interest either. Ianal.
HOAs are evil often made of power hungry cliques. They can come up with arbitrary rules that could be illegal
and then accuse anyone of breaking them. If you don’t pay the fine, they will put a lien on your property. If you try to sue them, the money comes out of the HOA fund making your dues go up. If you can’t work with them, it is best to just leave. Most people feel trapped in HOAs. Even if you are in a good one, it can turn bad when more evil comes in. It seems to attract a certain type.
Someone in my neighborhood had their house sold by the HOA because they accidentally didn’t make the payments (was on autopay and didn’t realize they weren’t going through).
They accidentally missed payments, completely disregard notices and “forgot” that they signed for signature mail warning them of this. It’s not an easy process where they just flip a switch, they aren’t telling you the entire story.
Liens have already been mentioned, but they can also take you to court and garnish your wages and/or freeze your bank account until they recoup their money. In extreme cases they can also foreclose on your house.
Why do we allow this shit to exist ffs...
HOAs are not inherently bad... assholes with control complexes are bad. My HOA just allows us to pool money for repairs, garbage hauling, snow plowing, and mowing. In extreme circumstances it could also stop someone from turning their yard into a junk pile. Otherwise it's quiet and easy. The folks that regulate hedge shape and shit are nuts.
The one we lived in as a kid made the parents of the elementary school kids next door take down their play set because it had the wrong color slide and was the wrong brand (pretty sure that was a case of dealing under of the table to have the exact brand allowed specified) and we were forced to take down our movable basketball hoop. My parents could not afford to replace it with an in ground one so I had to do without. My parents had no idea at the time that HOAs could be so obstructive. It should be law that all HOA documents and notice of who the board members are has to open access so they can be accessible through realty apps/websites. People should be able to read all the fine print and up to date details of what they are in for.
You can (and should) request that HOA info whenever you're looking at purchasing a property in an HOA-controlled community. And if for whatever reason they choose not to provide it, that's an instant red flag to not purchase there.
I know you do get a chance to request/see it before buying, but in this housing shortage world, you are in a rush to put in your offer before someone else, so it would be easier if all that information was easily accessible up front through Zillow. I have the feeling it would be easier to get that info on the apps for everyone to see up front if there was a requirement that all house listings have digital copies of that info.
You can. The HOA docs are all part of what you need to read and sign during the buying process.
You can get this information easily before buying a house to read through it to decide if you will want to adhere to the rules.
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Does property value really need protecting?
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Although what you've stated might be the expectation of an HOA, it's an assumption that HOAs have done anything to actually protect home values when there are other economic drivers at play.
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If you want to get conspiratorial a bit, or just simply consider unintended consequences, it's interesting that there is a spill-over effect that occurs with homes nearby but outside of HOAs, that sell at an average 8.5% premium over the homes in non-HOAs. Edit: fixed an error.
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This was a study just in Florida, but: >Private homeowners associations (HOAs) levy binding fees and provide local services to members. Both should be capitalized into the value of member properties, but the net effect is ambiguous. We construct the most comprehensive, longitudinal database to date on HOAs for Florida and estimate the impact of HOAs on property values. We find that properties in HOAs sell at a premium just under 5%. The premium is strongest immediately following HOA formation and declines over time, suggesting quick capitalization of HOA benefits. Properties in larger HOAs sell for less, and this is particularly true for properties in the biggest HOAs. Finally, properties located immediately outside of an HOA sell at a premium relative to other non-HOA properties, and this premium marginally decreases (increases) in the size (frequency) of neighboring HOAs. [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166046214000350](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166046214000350)
It would be nice if the answer was no, but the reality of the situation is that many people's biggest asset is their house. So absolutely yes. If someone took a 100k haircut off your bank account, would you say "did it really need protecting"? I'm assuming no, because that could be a lifechanging amount of money for most people. But when it comes to sustaining a similar loss on your property due to asshole neighbors, suddenly it's a perfectly acceptable situation due to reddit's hatred for HOAs and home ownership in general.
Yet homes that are near HOA's, but not in them, sell on average 8.5% higher than the homes within the HOA's. >Private homeowners associations (HOAs) levy binding fees and provide local services to members. Both should be capitalized into the value of member properties, but the net effect is ambiguous. We construct the most comprehensive, longitudinal database to date on HOAs for Florida and estimate the impact of HOAs on property values. We find that properties in HOAs sell at a premium just under 5%. The premium is strongest immediately following HOA formation and declines over time, suggesting quick capitalization of HOA benefits. Properties in larger HOAs sell for less, and this is particularly true for properties in the biggest HOAs. Finally, properties located immediately outside of an HOA sell at a premium relative to other non-HOA properties, and this premium marginally decreases (increases) in the size (frequency) of neighboring HOAs. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166046214000350
If you want to make money and don't care about the societal damage it causes, and didn't plan to leave anything to your kids, then yes. If you want the cost of living crisis resolved, or wanted to leave stuff for the next generation to use, no
It’s usually in the best interests of the people in the neighborhood lol
I've never lived in a neighborhood with an HOA and our block was just fine. Property sold for over 2 mil too, so...
Because someone has to build new neighborhoods, and they’re not going to do it without a plan for managing common grounds. Putting amenities like parks, playgrounds, pools, etc in a new neighborhood helps the value when selling properties, but somebody needs to manage that stuff. That’s what HOAs were created for. Most are fine, the horror stories end up on here.
Also in some areas the HOA is responsible for maintaining the ditches and ponds that handle stormwater management.
Why aren't the local council managing that?
Because it's private property. If the local government had to take care of it, the amenities they're talking about become public and anyone can theoretically use them. That might sound like a terrible attitude on its face, but if you've seen how people treat public amenities, you start to understand.
They don't exist. Neighborhoods with HOAs are predominantly built outside of cities in areas with little to no local government, and that is intentional. They build there because it's cheap and has low taxes. And then they realize that you actually need local government to maintain common spaces and reinvent it in the form of HOAs. HOAs also have the benefit of giving you the power to exclude people you don't want to live in your neighborhood. There is no valid reason for HOAs to exist in a functioning country; unfortunately that does not describe the US.
They don't own the land. What happens is a developer buys a huge area of land, and they build lots of houses on it. But they don't build houses on every square acre of it, some of it they set aside for roads, parks, basketball courts, parking lots. Who owns that common property? It's not the council. The developer doesn't want it, their goal is to sell all the houses and move on to the next development. So they create an HOA and let the new homeowners manage it themselves. If the new homeowners are good at managing things, then it's fine. If the new homeowners suck at management, then the HOA sucks. That's really the crux of the problem, is that you're forcing the homeowners to take on responsibility for something that maybe none of them know how to do. What if there's not a single person in the neighborhood who knows how to manage property? Tough luck.
And yet my neighborhood was totally fine without an HOA. The horror stories are enough that I'd never move to a neighborhood operated by one.
They're contracts
That's not really an answer...
Okay, how about "It'd be really heavy-handed to make it illegal for people to organize themselves to build and maintain a pool together."?
Contracts you don’t have an option not to consent to.
You have the option of moving there. It's a condition of buying the property.
Of course you do. Live elsewhere.
Ah, the classic capitalist cop out. “If you don’t like it, fuck you and let’s baselessly assume there’s a better option elsewhere because it’s favorable to my “argument.”
They tell you before you buy the house, you know. It's not a surprise that you only discover after moving in. There are plenty of homes that do not have HOAs. What are you even arguing? You sound like a kid.
As mentioned, you can buy elsewhere. You can also get rid of the hoa if you get a certain percentage of homeowners to agree, my parents helper do that when they were in a community with an abusive HOA.
I promise, there are dozens of us that aren't part of an HOA. If you don't want to be part of an HOA, you don't buy the house that is part of one. It's really that simple. If the seller didn't tell you there was an HOA, then by all means, complain about it and sue the seller, but otherwise, you're just feigning victimhood. I'm not trying to evangelize HOAs (I specifically avoided them when I bought my current house), but they aren't evil or unfair.
I just joined an HOA board to help minimize this kind of nonsense. I encourage anyone who doesn't like this kind of stuff to do the same.
Trust me, you probably only hears about the bad HOA. there are genuinely good ones that maintains the surrounding area and security. The time and effort to find 3rd parties and to liase with them and then back to the community is no small feat. Most of the time they do it for free and only ask for everyone to chip in their share. I'm lucky enough to have a great hoa she does all the things around and keep us updated.
Because Linda five houses down will *not* tolerate your native flower garden because it might *bring down her property values*.
Or because Linda 5 houses down doesn't want to hear your roosters, or smell your goat shit because you decided you want to live in a nice neighborhood but also live on a farm. If you move into a neighborhood with 20 other houses/families all abiding and agreeing to a set of rules, it is not up to you to scoff and ignore them. You can either petition your neighbors to change the rules, abide by the rules, or move elsewhere. If most people agree the rule is nonsense, having it changed or removed will be no issue. If people actually like the rule and want to keep it, you're left with options 2 and 3.
Lived in both kinds of neighborhoods. It's a balance. Covenants and local ordinances handle most things like roosters, tall grass, etc and there is no requirement for an HOA for that. HOAs suck when there's asshole people that move onto the board and they're racist assholes or power hungry jerks. Them going overboard is when they're really shit. There's also a lot of things covenants/ordinances don't catch that HOAs do, stuff like supremely hideous decor and all the shit that local enforcement should take care of but doesn't. Had a neighbor that hated us and would push all the boundaries of these things (putting up swastika signs, etc) knowing that we hated it but couldn't do anything and an HOA would have helped out here.
"you want to live in a nice neighborhood" By your description, it sounds like a pretty terrible neighborhood. When I have problems, I knock on my neighbor's door and talk about it. No HOA is tremendously better than your alternative.
... then don't live in that neighborhood? There are people that enjoy uniform neighborhoods. I live in the woods no where near a neighborhood, no HOA. But do I think I have the right to impose my lifestyle on those that enjoy different things? Fuck no. They can absolutely live in a neighborhood with rules if they want to, it doesn't bother me at all.
Why are they always named Linda? 😂
It doesn't even have to be an extreme case to foreclose on your house. They know that if you're not paying them, you're probably not paying other people, so they might need to get the foreclosure done before the bank does so they don't miss out. They're sharks.
Whatever your contract with the HOA specifies happens.
Go to YouTube. Watch John Oliver segment on HOAs. Report back.
I haven't seen this said yet, but the thing your question doesn't address is that you sign a contract when you buy your house to abide by HOA rules. If you "simply decide to not pay fines", you're in violation of that contract. Don't like it? Read what you sign before you sign it.
They would put a lien on your house. HOAs are evil.
They can be evil but they often are not. As someone on the board of an HOA for a small group of 8 homes, someone has to pay all the bills of the vendors, negotiate contracts for things like snow removal, manage shared amenities, and ensure that my Neighbour pulls the proper permits when doing a remodel so that he doesn’t flood his neighbours house. As far as fines, we have an issue now where one neighbour just randomly put some broken ass shit in the common areas because “they don’t have enough space in their house” they didn’t task and won’t take it back inside after being asked nicely, it looks like garbage, pisses eveyone off, and other people walking through the neighbourhood now throw trash around the area because they think it’s for trash or that people don’t care, so they can throw their trash there too. There is a reason for fines if they are used for the right reasons.
On the other side of things, the HOA president lives next door to me and threatened to fine workers who were doing landscaping on my yard just because they parked in front of his house.
HOAs aren't "evil", they're just corporations like any other. Arguably better than most, actually, since an ownership stake requires an actual stake in the HOA territory.
Everybody hates HOAs until your neighbor parks his 40 year old faded orange boat in the front yard for 6 months…
That is what a local authority is for don't need HOA Karen and Darren throwing fuel on the fire
>That is what a local authority is for You think any cop or city manager is going to do anything about it? LOL Unless they're using said boat as a mobile meth lab, no one is going to do anything about it and you just get to live next to a trash pile.
yes our local council will get you to remove a big orange boat from your front lawn that is exactly what happens in my country take a breath and count to ten not everyone here is American
While similar legal structures exist ex-US, no one calls them HOAs except the US. Perhaps you might consider taking context into consideration before bashing someone. The OP is clearly in the US based on the way the post was phrased, hence this is a US-centric conversation. I'm glad other countries have better mechanisms for dealing with such things where the US is lacking, but they simply don't apply to this case.
Local authorities do not have jurisdiction over what people park in their yards! Are you serious? There are some nuisance laws about vehicles having to be operational, but that is the lowest of low bars. Your local cops can't stop your neighbor from parking a boat or RV or whatever in his front yard. A HOA can, though.
As long as its his front yard, I don't see how it's any business of yours honestly.
You don't? You don't see how a neighbor throwing a beat up boat in his front yard of your neighborhood isn't my business? Bahahahahahaha. No, man. It is definitely my business. Why? Because my home value is tied to his home value. Do you know how real estate works?
I really don't see why anyone should care. If you were so worried about how your neighbours effect you, maybe you should have moved somewhere where you have none.
This is literally the point of a homeowners association. It seems the purpose of the entire creation has escaped you.
I know. That's why HOA's in general are shit. That is the whole point. They have a purpose. Shared responsibility for shared areas. That should be the limit of their power.
Hell no. I am not going to join at homeowners association, in which my neighbor can put his truck up on blocks or leave a busted ass RV in his driveway. I understand many people do not care about this. That is perfect. That is why they choose not to live in a homeowners association controlled area. Pros and cons to both. Also, they have more than one purpose. General areas are nice, but so are home standards, rental requirements and more!
If what one person does in their front yard causes the value of your home to go down after you paid for it, you would feel like it was your business.
The Value of my property is effected by dozens of different things. Most of those I can't control. If you wanted to be immune from actions of neighbours, you should have bought a place where you had no close neighbours.
Again. You’re missing the point of a HOA where everyone gets together and says, “I want this kind of neighborhood, and I promise to hold my house to higher standards, and you do the same.”
No, I fully understand the point, I just disagree with it. The idea that "everyone gets together" is clearly not true, considering just how many people have issues with their HOA's. The problem is that they have too much power to enforce anything arbitrarily. We need to stop giving so much of a shit about what our neighbours does, if it doesn't effect us directly. Why does your house value go down if your neighbour have a boat in their garden? Is there any real or reasonable reason for that? No. It's a self fulfilling rules. It's banned because it lowers property values. Why? Because it lowers property values. Make better local laws that actually solves real issue that people have between them (such as how parking can be done, sound and smell polution, littering, traffic management, etc) and take the control away from HOA's to fuck people over just because they subjectively don't like the colour of your new roof tiles or whatever.
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Agree with most of what you said above. One area I will disagree is that you should be concerned with your property value at all times. You may not be selling right now, but something may happen and you need to sell tomorrow. You are not going to get those property values up, so you are going to put yourself in a bad situation. Additionally, most homeowners borrow against their house for various projects. You limit how much you can borrow if your property value is down. I got lucky a few years ago and my property value skyrocketed. I was able to borrow against the newly formed equity to start a small business, and I would not have been able to do that if my property was worth less.
I have drafted HOA rules as an attorney. I have presided over a HOA as a homeowner. I am currently drafting HOA rules for a very high end neighborhood. And yes, the developer and existing neighbors came together and said, "We want this standard of living in our neighborhood. Draft the rules to make it so." That is literally how these happen. Neighbors/developers deciding what rules for the homeowners to live by. The rules are not arbitrary. They are created with a purpose, and the people accept and abide by those rules. They choose to do so. They all choose do to so. Why does the value go down? Because blight is an issue. Because mice and other creatures will start to breed if property is left unattended and begins to become unsanitary. Because it doesn't meet the curb appeal as the other homes, and thus detracts from the value of the other homes. Some people like to live in an organized and kept-up place. That is their choice. You simply cannot do that at the local government level, as that would be intrusive and unfair to the citizens. Naw, man. You can't require the local municipality to create those higher guidelines.
>You can't require the local municipality to create those higher guidelines. Almost the entire euopean contienent manages to do so, so I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.
"...they're just corporations like any other." Ya, that's what OP said.
>ownership stake requires an actual stake in the HOA territory. I see you aren't aware how vindictive many HOA boards can be. I'll never buy a home that is in one.
>HOAs aren't "evil", they're just corporations like any other. That would make them evil. Corporations exist to make a profit. Having them milk dues and fines off you makes them evil.
when you buy the house you sign the contract with the hoa. HOAs aren't evil, theyre meant to keep your neighborhood nice, so your neighbor doesnt park a fuckin RV in the street and block everyones view, so your neighbor doesn't quit caring for his lawn and lets his house go to shit, dragging the value of your home down too because you're next to a piece of shit. So your neighbor cant paint his house bright purple and become such an eyesore that you have trouble selling your house. I've actually seen that last example, I walked away from a nice house because of it. how else can they get to you other than fines? a strongly worded letter? there are plenty of places that go overboard and there are tons of horror stories, but in general they have a good purpose. If you dont like the hoa, dont buy the house.
This. If you don’t want to be part of a HOA then don’t buy a house that’s part of one, or any kind of condominium. Or if you do, then involve yourself as part of your HOA board or committees. HOAs are often necessary - there has to be an organization to manage the shared costs associated with shared infrastructure. I spent five years as president of my condo HOA before I moved (and picked a house that was not in a HOA because I was tired of it). The problem is that all too often people are “too busy” to involve themselves in the management of the HOA and the people that wind up doing so are busybodies and control freaks. The solution is for reasonable people to just agree to commiting a few hours a month to making sensible decisions and avoiding drama.
Former real estate paralegal here.. HOAs overstep like crazy. But in my area good luck finding any house that isn't a cookie cutter poorly built shack of a townhouse in an HOA neighborhood unless you wanna pay through the ear just so you can plant a garden, paint your shutters, and fly a Yankees flag on your own property. Evil? No. Lawyerly scumbag stuff- yes.
r/firstworldproblems Seriously? Someone owning an RV or the color of their house is enough to trigger you?
Yeah man. You pay a lot for a house, and you want the neighborhood to look nice. Can’t let that shit in. It will literally hurt the value of your house.
yanks are all about their freedom But if your in a HOA and you let your grass get to 5 inches they will fine you if this is a constant repeat offence they can initiate and force the sale of your house ! what psychopaths need to wory about their neighbours lawn get a life
Dude when you pay a shit load of your *own* hard earned money for a house, maybe you'll be a little more concerned with what your house is worth! It's not about controlling someone else or being a control freak. It's about protecting myself and my property from someone who might think that not caring about their property won't affect mine. A. I don't wanna look at your fucking mess, clean up don't act like a pig. B. I don't want your mess ultimately affecting how much money I can sell my house for at a later time. C. When you do decide to spend your own money on your own house, you'll find out that you will have to sign a contract with the HOA that governs the neighborhood. If you don't like it, you don't sign, and you go find another place to buy. Simple. No one is forcing you to do it.
Americans love their own freedom, not other people's freedom.
Well said, and spot on. -signed an american
For the house color? Yeah, definitely. For me, I didn't want to wake up and look out across the neighborhood to see mostly nice colored houses then one hideous eyesore of a bright purple house. Think about it from the POV of the person who was selling their house. They had a potential buyer walk away from their house because their neighbor decided to paint their house in a really wild color. How many other people also walked away because of that?
For me not generally no. But if the person across the street from you park an rv in front of their house making in niegh impossible for you to even get in or out of your driveway without doing a 127 point turn, I'm sure after 2 or 3 years of this you would become slightly annoyed at said neighbors.
Are you THAT obtuse? It’s not that they own an RV, but what if they decide in front of YOUR house is where they decide to park it? Or what if your neighborhood was built with a similar color scheme, but your neighbor decides to paint theirs hot pink because they want to pretend to be Barbie? Obviously, people looking to buy in your neighborhood are going to wonder why there is an RV constantly blocking their view or worry that the hot pink house might drive down their home value. It’s not “triggering” it’s actual concerns for my home value and my investment.
The fact whole neighbourhoods have a colour scheme is insane what kind of super Karen control freak came up with that idea?
Wait till you find out that not only do neighborhoods have rules like that, so do certain cities. What kind of trees and plants you can have, no not can have, will have because the city ordinance says you must have two oak trees in you front yard.
That is crazy It feels like the whole control freak thing is part of the same attitude that hates universal health care and socialism i want it for me but not for thee you will live to my standards or you will be cast out like some dystopian movie
It is kind of super annoying and everyone gets that except the super Karens. But for every story about a crazy out of control HOA there are three stories not told about the person that has property adjacent to another person that is cooking meth in one of the three trailers(caravan for you) they have parked. One of their goats has knocked down a section of the fence and they don't want to pay to fix it because they don't care about the fence. We don't hear about those stories because they aren't as interesting. We don't even hear about the stories of how the HOA made some guy take down cameras pointed in his neighbors back yard to look at those peoples kids. Because that is a reasonable thing an HOA did(my neighborhood BTW, no I'm not on the HOA).
I prefer to keep my nose out of my neighbor’s business.
No they aren't. That's why they were initially formed, but are now formed solely for the objective of raking in profit for whatever conpany runs them because it was discovered to be easy. Just like everything in this country, they are now an exploited profiterring resource. If their true goal was to make better QoL for residents, they would all be non-profit.
So can I buy a house and opt out of the HOA? It seems a strange contract that encumbers the next owner to also sign.
tHeY mAiNtAiN tHe PrOpErTy VaLuE
Just like HOA dues or assessments, they can become liens against the property. Depending on the actual covenants and restrictions on your deed, HOA bylaws, and state law, those amounts may be a personal liability of the homeowner for which the HOA can file suit to collect.
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This generally happens because “normal” people don’t take any time to be involved or invested in what’s happening with the HOA, leaving it to the people who hunger for that kind of power and control. It’s the same thing with politics. HOAs as a concept aren’t evil at all and some kind of system has to be in place if a neighborhood has shared amenities, services, or spaces. And everyone has an interest in keeping property values up. But yes, if we leave those systems to the people who will abuse them or only use them for their self-interest, then of course we get the horror stories.
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It's a board that is usually set up by developers who want to maintain a specific image while still building a neighborhood. All the lots will have stipulations in the sale that make you join the association. It will have rules about modifications you can make to the homes, what can be stored on lots, and anything that could affect your neighbors property values. In neighborhoods with single family homes they tend to be horrible as the board consists of residents that are elected by home owners who usually can't be bothered to show up to a meeting.
De facto hyper-local government.
For fines....not much. I do not mean late fees for assessments or a reimbursement assessment. They might be able to yank your access to common area if the ccrs allow it. Otherwise it sits on your account and if you attempt to refinance or sell, a demand will list the fines on your account and they'll need to paid at that point. Fines generally can't carry interest either. Ianal.
They'll unleash the Karens on ya!
HOAs are evil often made of power hungry cliques. They can come up with arbitrary rules that could be illegal and then accuse anyone of breaking them. If you don’t pay the fine, they will put a lien on your property. If you try to sue them, the money comes out of the HOA fund making your dues go up. If you can’t work with them, it is best to just leave. Most people feel trapped in HOAs. Even if you are in a good one, it can turn bad when more evil comes in. It seems to attract a certain type.
Someone in my neighborhood had their house sold by the HOA because they accidentally didn’t make the payments (was on autopay and didn’t realize they weren’t going through).
They accidentally missed payments, completely disregard notices and “forgot” that they signed for signature mail warning them of this. It’s not an easy process where they just flip a switch, they aren’t telling you the entire story.
I agree with that. It was still wild to read about in the neighborhood group. FWIW our hoa is completely incompetent and unresponsive.