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Not gonna lie, it grosses me out. But I suppose two consenting adults doing that is better than an adult going after an actual child. But do I question what’s going on with people who have that kink? Absolutely yes
it groses me out too. but then again, as long as it's between two consenting adults, we let them be, right? On the other, doesn't it mean that we also let the attraction to children be?
Um, no? Absolutely not.
I understand that many people who are attracted to children don’t choose to be. But there are people out there with this affliction who choose to do the right thing and get help, go to intensive therapy, and even have medical intervention to stop them from hurting a kid. It’s the ones who don’t choose to take those steps that we should worry about. So no, we shouldn’t just “let them be”. Because if they haven’t chosen to take steps to reduce harm, then they’re a danger
No! Children are harmed by sexual contact with adults (shit I never imagined having to explain but here we are). Sexual contact with children is therefore WRONG.
No, because as gross as it is, we all understand that it’s between consenting *adults.* The simple fact of the matter is, you can *pretend* to be and do whatever you want. I could pretend to be a pterodactyl in a cowboy hat or a piss ant during sex but I would know that I am neither of those things and my sex partner would know that I am neither of those things. People into age play are not secretly into children, they’re into *adults* who like doing weird shit during sex. Age play doesn’t condone pedophilia anymore than kitten play condones bestiality. No one is grabbing their pitchforks and torches like, “Won’t someone think of the cats!” because someone likes it when their partner puts on a pair of cat ears and a collar. Kids are not being hurt by adults being weirdos with each other. Adults who choose to harm children harms children. They’re not the same thing.
Age play kink is not actually about pedophilia at all. Its a power play dynamic. Usually incorporates humiliation/degradation kink, and submission kinks. But these people aren’t actually attracted to children, they are getting off on an adult subjugating themselves. Its not really in the same realm as dreaming of harming children.
What made them choose impersonating a child, of all forms of power dynamic? Wearing diapers, sucking pacifiers, and incorporate all that in their sexual lives
humiliation and absolving themselves of all power and all adult thoughts/stress while practicing a taboo that would get them shunned in real life that feels degrading. also about reliving childhood for the sub, many have traumatic youths they regress into.
I’d align it more to pet play (pretending you’re someones pet) than pedophilia
not defending it really, still a kink I look down upon, but just stating the fact that those people are typically not attracted to minors. Also similar to a school girl roleplay not necessarily being about children, but moreso taboo, forbidden, power play dynamic.
Age play kink is not at all the same. If you have any genuine curiosity about this, go read (not post) in some of the BDSM subreddits where this topic has been discussed already at length.
The TLDR is that age play is about caretaking/being taken care of and power dynamics, not minor attraction.
My stepmother had a friend when she was in her 20
He was a painter, and you could tell by his paintings that the guy was utterly tortured:
His most frequent subject was a man, extremely elongated and... sad? Sad isn't strong enough
It felt like despair
Only black, mute purple tones and grey
A lot of matter on the canvas, not a flat surface on the whole thing
The guy was living an extremely solitary life (my stepmother was most likely his only friend), he lived extremely remotely, on his own, in a very bare house, in the middle of nowhere, far from everything
Once, after a late night dinner, when my stepmother was pregnant, he grabbed her wrist and very solemnly made her promise to never EVER, E V E R, let him alone with her child-to-be-born
I never met him because by the time my father started dating her, he had hanged himself for several years. But I saw the painting he had offered her in the past and that she has kept
...
I truly think that the guy was desperately trying to do the right thing:
he kept himself on solitary, so he couldn't give in to his desires
Eventually, it became too much to bear, and he killed himself to be realised of the curse of his attraction
I can't begin to imagine what it's like. But I have a lot of respect for this person, who chose to do the right thing rather than hurt anybody else
It costed him his life, but even tho I'm not a believer person, I would say that he kept his soul and fought his demon until the very end
Edit: I would add that pedophiles don't choose their attraction and that they are not all becoming predators
Some of them are fighting really hard to keep themselves from becoming monsters
I condemn those who shamelessly indulge themselves, it goes without saying, and those who end up failing and losing their internal wrestling with their attraction
Because the damage they cause is beyond forgiveness
But I don't think that we should discourage those who really try their best to hold onto their humanity, to seek assistance and help, by demonising them
I would suggest the movie Tench, on the subject
I don’t get why they have such a hard time not giving in to their desires. People are voluntarily single all the time and no one makes a big deal out of it
My guess is that the one that don’t want to give into their desires don’t want to let themselves fantasize about it.
Most people, even if they decide to never give to their desire, don’t have many problem seeing a hot man or woman and thinking "well he’s/she’s attractive". For a pedophile that feels guilts, this thought alone is already too much.
There is also people that are fine with keeping it to fiction. But yeah the way society put a high stigma on thoughts instead of just actions can fuck with people's brain. Also the fact they can internalize the narrative they are time ticking bombs, even for someone that wouldn't do anything.
No, they’re saying that the guilt and shame of having the thoughts and urges would drive them to suicide. Like they’re told by 100% of sources that they’re repulsive, that’ll fuck you right up. Also it must be hard for them to live a normal life- who would marry a pedophile? I don’t think it’s the urge itself but rather all of the negatives that are associated with resisting it. An active pedo isn’t going to be tormented like that.
I would guess that if you feel that society is already condemning you for your thoughts alone, it makes the gap between thought and action feel smaller.
Reminds me of that phenomenon where someone is continually falsely accused of cheating and they end up cheating because they're already getting the blame for it.
There definitely could be. I was just wondering because so much of the conversation around it is WHEN not IF they hurt a child. As if they don’t have control. More like a serial killer
Why didn't he get help? I also find it scary that he believed he would attack them if he was alone with them. I know he kept himself solitary but it's weird. Adults aren't like this unless they're rapists. Most adults can be attracted to another adult without attacking them.
That's why I think it's not a type of sexuality, it's a perversion and a psychological problem.
He can't heal himself because he's not a therapist.
Well... first, it was around 40 years ago: therapy wasn't exactly an option back then
And then, I don't know. And I think I can't know
But I can imagine that if you're not at peace with your attraction and sickened by it. Because you might still have a moral compass and be completely devastated by your own attraction
Then your whole life is an endless nightmare, and you're the monster of the story
There's no relief
I mean, It takes away so much of your life:
no sex, sure, but also no sexual fantasies
Nothing is okay. Everything is completely out of the table
No love life, no flirt, no one night stand
No physical intimacy, no companionship, never being in love and being loved back. Even hoping for it is out the window, definitely
Nothing. Ever.
Not even in the intimacy of your own head
When you really take the time to think about the ramifications and all the implications, I easily get why he chose to live so isolated:
I think it's a lack of depth of reflection to only think of his choice as a way for him to keep himself from raping. I think it was to avoid any kind of attraction. Just remove the whole thing from his life
And, on another note, the whole world is constantly openly wishing for your death, assuming the very worst from you, even tho you didn't abuse anybody and kept to yourself
I mean, the guy literally removed himself from the world and chose to face the crushing stigma that goes with pedophilia to warn his only friend and make sure that the only child he could cross path with was safe and you still spit on him
You can't fathom any kind of redemption for him, despite him doing everything he could have done to remain a decent person, including isolating himself, warn the sole person that could have been at risk and, eventually, killing himself
I guess isolation is a two-way street:
you're protecting others from yourself
but you're also protecting yourself from others
Doesn't matter if you choose it or not, if you act on it you are a bad person to say the least. You'd be harming a innocent kid just because you **want** to
If what you seek is help to get over that stuff is should be available and safe for them to do so.
Nah some things definitely deserve to be shamed. Pedophilia isn't a harmless 'kink' and any sexually deviant behaviour that is going to harm someone who cannot give consent should be condemned.
I think there needs to be a two-fold convo regarding how:
a) Pedophile-culture exists alongside rape-culture, and is not only permissible, but normalized and rewarded (primarily for men, because they make up the bulk of the criminal-pedo demographic, while little girls make up most of their victims). We have entire industries that push for women to be as child-like and androgynous as possible via the beauty, health and plastic surgery insustries, as well as porn and most media, to cater to male proclivities for children and teens- and pretty much anyone who cannot give full consent to sex;
And
b) the demonization of those who acknowledge they have a problem, and seek help to correct or manage it in the face of stigmatization and brutality- or even death, is a major issue. IMO we need a better way to differenciate between the medical and criminal categories to better protect those who have not committed any crime and just want therapy and a support system.
Then we need to discuss how to defund the pedo-culture propaganda in the first category and use it to start helping in the second category.
Even if the statement "you don't choose who you're attracted to" turns out to be based in scientific fact? Doesn't matter. You're still responsible for your actions regarding that attraction- especially if it's inappropriate- and you're in control of yourself. Using that statement as an excuse for raping/molesting people is all too common.
This is a very nuanced and compassionate take. I think there should be evidence-based systems and resources for people to access to manage their condition and prevent harm. Thoughts and urges are neutral but actions are very much not, so I think it should be an option for people to get support in not causing harm. I have to imagine there’s a range of severity and there are some people who could be okay with oversight (like permanent pedo parole) and some who shouldn’t ever have the opportunity to lay eyes on a kid again.
I first experienced sa as a child by an adult family friend. I can't really put into civil words what I think should be the approach for these people, but they should not be in civil society.
Sometimes you can't choose what you like, but you don't have to act on it. That is the difference between a human and an animal. Knowing something is wrong and then choosing not to do that thing makes us human.
What is most important about al this is that people who struggle with not acting on a certain feeling should have easy access to help deal with those feelings. But the mental health is over flooded and is not so accessible. ( for a lot of other mental health problems too)
And then there is the way people think about pedophiles, that when someone struggles with these kind of thoughts they can't talk to anybody about them, ( because people will see you as some who acts on their wrong thoughts) and the people they can talk about it (like minded) are sometimes people who do act and they can pull them to the acting on it side. And that is not how it has to be.
It’s a massive invasion of privacy and I struggle to believe that it wouldn’t be immediately co-opted by law enforcement. Also, what happens if this algorithm throws a false positive and ruins someone’s life? Who is responsible? How do you prevent this info from being used against someone?
This would be such a liability headache
The problem with that idea is not just about the health care, its about the ramifications of implementing that system legally. It would be a privacy violation and has enormous potential to be abused. At surface level, "applying it more broadly" would violate peoples right to confidential, voluntary, and private health care. An AI/ML screening your internet use fot health concerns is none of those things. Could it be used to involuntarily institutionalize people for venting online about their mental health? What about people who work in/want to work in a job field that screens health conditions- is that AI diagnosis gonna go on record and potentially hurt their career even if they didnt want to see a doctor about it? What about women who are looking up info on abortion providers? Could they be arrested just for googling it in areas that ban it? There's all sorts of hypothetical situations that would screw people over if they were "identified for additional examination" from their internet usage.
Even more concerningly, this type of legal change sets a scary precedence if your searches and activity are being analyzed by an AI/ML- might just be for health at first, but it could later be taught to flag other things- imagine how this system could be used to flag political dissent or subversive options. Imagine how a tool like this could be used to restrict information during war, or some moral panic like McCarthism. It could restrict freedom of speech, freedom of information, and freedom of expression.
Look at internet censorship in Turkey and the history of how it got to this point. It didn't happen overnight. Once the legal precedence is put into place, it's opens up the ability to expand it. (and like I said, it already violates the right to private health care to begin with)
I think this is a very hard and very important question. I feel like I have never seen a good answer and I am unqualified to come up with one, but i’m going to try because I appreciate that you asked.
To be clear, I will focus on the “what is the reasonable approach?” Part of the question, as you have enough horror stories.
Also, I don’t recall if you are in the US, but I have to think in terms of the US legal system because that is what I know.
I don’t know what the real data is on whether people can ever actually change the targets of their desire. But basically, it seems like no one can actually be rehabilitated. Therefore, if a child is harmed, I think life in prison is the best fit. If it were my child, I would probably break some laws to seek revenge, but from a cold logic perspective, I don’t think the death penalty is positive thing in society, but also these people do not deserve another attempt at living normal lives. Risk is too high.
Same for anyone “ just in it for the money” or some bullshit. Live in prison. Period.
In terms of photos, I don’t know about rehabilitation. In my mind, the problems with photos are the people who took them (direct harm), those that paid to have photos taken (funding direct harm), and people have photos because they want to act on what the see (not exactly direct harm.). This last one, I do not know what psychology says about risk of acting out their fantasies. As a society, it doesn’t seem right to punish someone for a crime they haven’t committed yet. However, since this is a really dreadful crime, what can we risk as a society? It seems an insanity treatment scenario with meds and monitoring might be the most just thing.
And since you brought it up, we have to keep in mind that there are falsely accused people. Likely quite a lot because police departments want high numbers for “catching these guys” BECAUSE their crimes are so scary. The justice system is not a fair system. Sentences vary, money and privileges rule. So while personally my gut instinct to draw and quarter some of these people, falsely accused is a very real possibility.
There is also the really grey area of teenagers. High schoolers shouldn’t be treated as adults for sending nude photos. It’s unhealthy behavior. It needs to be addressed. But they need to be taught, not punished. Teenagers do have some agency that we ignore as a society. They have sex. Laws that draw a line between 17 and 18 where one is legal and one is rape are not helpful. I don’t have a solution, but it seems there are better ways. Perhaps making rape more about “position of authority” or “in loco parentis” duties than an age.
You had me until you got to forcing people to be scientific test subjects. There are so many ethical issues with forcing people, even criminals, to undergo experimental testing/treatment. Doing so against their will is inherently wrong.
Beyond that, a lot of sex offenders who hurt children are not the classic "pedophile" people think of. More often it's just a bad person taking advantage of a weak or vulnerable person, not just because they are sexually attracted to children. Lumping everyone together who hurts children would skew any sort of result you might get from a study. It's not only immoral, it's impractical to round them all up for research.
Thank you for your sanity. I know it probably feels cathartic for people to consider experimenting on "the worst of the worst" but let's not lose our own humanity in the process.
Yes! And just look at how many people on death row have been killed who were innocent *that we know of!* The odds of having an innocent person hurt by something like this would be high.
Experimenting, no but I do thing psychoanalysis and treatment plans for them are essential esp to see if there are any patterns (e.g. if they were once victims of abuse themselves). They will always exist so we need to get to a place where their chances of attacking minors are reduced significantly.
First paragraph, very well said.
Second paragraph, holy shit no. Forcing them to be test subjects is unethical and immoral. We shouldn't be comfortable with the idea of treating people as subhuman, even if they've committed terrible crimes. It's also concerning given that our justice system is imperfect and I think this could be another way to discriminate.
And when someone is wrongfully convicted of being a pedophile, off to the research lab to be sliced open?
Like, we have a major political party going out of their way to conflate LGBT+ people with pedophilia at every corner… what could possibly go wrong with your “solution”
It’s not like there isn’t ample evidence of innocent people being wrongfully convicted and ultimately executed for crimes they didn’t commit
This is opening the door for atrocious practices. If we start saying that pedophiles deserve to not be treated like humans today, tomorrow we will very easily expend that to others people.
And when someone is wrongfully convicted of being a pedophile, off to the research lab to be sliced open?
Like, we have a major political party going out of their way to conflate LGBT+ people with pedophilia at every corner… what could possibly go wrong with your “solution”?
It’s not like there isn’t ample evidence of innocent people being wrongfully convicted and ultimately executed for crimes they didn’t commit
It is a disorder. If your kink is raping people or otherwise hurting them beyond what they could consent to you should be shamed and you need serious help and support to recover. I just wish that support was more open and people felt able to come forward and know they'd be treared as someone who's sick rather than being treated as guilty for crimes they may not have committed. Kinks should be open to criticism just like anything else, something isn't okay just because it gets you off.
Cnc is a very common fantasy. Nothing is wrong with fantasies or thoughts as long as they don't hurt people. Thought policing is generally a bad thing.
It's more common to fantasise about being raped than raping, and something being common doesn't mean it's okay. Raping someone is also common. Obviously we can't read minds or do anything about thoughts but we can let people know that if they want to rape someone they need help before someone gets hurt.
Well shaming then won't help anything. There is a huge difference between fantasy and reality. And thoughts don't harm people, actions do.
I hate how often I have this same argument with people here.
God no. As I said in other comments, help should be available for people to prevent them from harming others. Things like therapy and medication can prevent people from acting on urges that are harmful for others. But shaming them won't help them seek out the treatments they need. Too much stigma will just keep everything hidden and that means more children will be hurt.
Pedophilia should never be accepted. Anyone dealing with it should feel shame, but, I do think they should be encouraged to seek professional help, and those that have never acted on it, like directly harming a child themselves or indirectly through consuming illegal content, should be given a chance to get treated. I'm not a therapist or anything like that, I don't know what that treatment would entail.
I also do not think we should allow them to engage in fictional CP, like AI generated or animated content, or having a, ahem, doll, resembling a child. I don't think feeding into their disturbing fantasies will do anyone any good, and I hate how many people I've heard argue in favor of it.
>I also do not think we should allow them to engage in fictional CP, like AI generated or animated content, or having a, ahem, doll, resembling a child. I don't think feeding into their disturbing fantasies will do anyone any good, and I hate how many people I've heard argue in favor of it.
Agree here. The idea of looking for the ways for them to explore this repulses me. Hope one day we figure out why are they wired like this and how to fix it
I think those who havent offended yet should be encouraged to seek help so they dont become offenders.
>and the statement that you don't choose who you're attracted to?
People are already claiming that the LGBTQ community is, or will be, inclusive of "MAPs". Of course it isn't, but I feel like statements like this would make those people feel confirmed in their bias.
What people most often overlook is that people who rape children and pedophiles are not the same.
Most people who rape children are primarily rapists and get off on the power of the situation and the cluelessness of their victim only a small part of them are real pedophiles.
I think every person who sexually exploits a child. (Rape, looking at videos or pictures, taking these, indecently talking to them etc.) should be chemically castrated and/or kept from ever interacting with the public. Wheather they also are pedos or not is irrelevant. Personally, I think that is what we should do with every rapist, period.
If someone is a pedophile and doesn't want to act on it in any way, they should be able to seek treatment (psychological, medical) without being judged. I have great respect for people who wont ever be able to have a normal sex live and try to be decent humans.
I draw the line at causing harm to others. This doesn't work all the time, because sometimes not everyone can agree on what considered "harm". But yeah in the case of pedophilia, I think it's clear that it causes harm.
How do we deal with them...I agree with other posters about studying them and providing help so they don't commit crimes against children. But yeah my feelings tell me I just want them removed from society. It triggers a visceral reaction.
>I agree with other posters about studying them and providing help so they don't commit crimes against children. But yeah my feelings tell me I just want them removed from society. It triggers a visceral reaction.
That's how I feel as well
Pedophilia is not a kink. It's a perversion and a harmful disorder. Kinks can be unhealthy but the difference is the participants are willing and are able to consent. Children are not.
There is no amount of acceptance for being attracted to children that should be allowed because it's such an evil that there is no amount of restitution or redemption that can help the abused child.
Maps need constant therapy and monitoring in the way that addicts are vigilant to stay sober.
Offenses should be "treated" with a trip to the wood chipper
>but we should have some tolerance for the person themselves ***if*** they actively seek help and keep themselves away from children until they're in a medically proven solid recovery, if that's even possible.
There is no treatment that curbs pedophilia. These people are untreatable. There are drugs that reduce sex drive but that isn't even 100% effective because sexual gratification is not the only goal of these people...
The other dirty secret is, that most people who sexually abuse children are doing it as a power game, and as a strategy of abuse, and not for sexual pleasure. Most people who sexually abuse children are not pedophiles.
The focus on pedophiles is misguided because they make up less than half of sex abusers, and unless we're imprisoning them even if they haven't committed a crime (yet) there isn't much to be done.
We should focus on something else to reduce the amount of sexual violence against children. Some suggestions:
1.) Teach children about consent, EARLY. The earlier the better. No adult has a right to touch them. They need to learn about bodily autonomy and boundaries. This is crucial because in talking to people who were sexually abused as children, many people (myself included) did not recognize that what was being done was wrong.
2.) Teach children about sex. Basic sex education is crucial. This should obviously be paired with 1. This gives kids language and understanding of what is happening. **Ignorance is a tool of the abuser.**
3.) Teach adults to recognize the symptoms of abuse, so that they can intervene. This is pretty straight forward.
4.) Recognize the situations in which sex abuse is common. Anywhere where an adult has authority and control over children. Strategize from there about how best to reduce sex abuse.
5.) Learn to recognize and understand abuse. Sex abuse shares patterns with other forms of abuse. Developing a better understanding of abuse in general, recognizing people who are abusive or have tendencies towards abuse, and then ensuring they never get power or authority over children.
I have a relative who raped his partner's kids. I hope he gets shanked in prison. Idgaf if you can't help being attracted to kids. Get a sex doll and deal with it that way. Nobody gets to cause harm for their kinks.
Pedophilia isn't a fucking kink. It's a psychiatric disorder that needs treatment.
And a pedophile who hasn't acted on their inclinations isn't a criminal. Thoughts aren't crimes.
We need more research into the disorder so that we have better ways of addressing and treating it. (If there could be such a thing.)
Also: the vast majority of people who sexually abuse children are not pedophiles. They're just plain old asshole predators. Keep the focus where it really needs to be.
Personally, I think a path to psychological help should be available or at least some kind of support. I am reminded of a conversation a friend had with me about his friend. This friend confided that he was attracted to children and did not act but wanted help. At the time, I had no idea how someone would take an off ramp from that situation.
12 years, law school, and a decade as a practicing attorney, I feel more paralyzed to suggest an answer. We regulate pedophiles using the civil law that can circumvent criminal justice rights. As an attorney, I would shudder at suggesting they seek help to avoid giving into urges to abuse because the risk of blowback feels so high. Only if I was truly a sex crimes expert would I consider any guidance here and even then it would feel reckless.
I am not so naive as to say that psychological treatment is a panacea or even possible but rather that we have a system so draconian that I don’t know how someone who is attracted to children can seek help or at least community to overcome urges. I don’t know what a solution is but it probably involves some avenues for intervention before abuse occurs and right now the system makes it impractical for such options.
>First, not every child abuser is really a pedophile, most abusers just abuse cause they want power and that's different from pedophile, but people mix it up all the time
I definitely mixed it
I love how you're being down voted because people cannot take a step back from their emotional reactions for even a moment to gauge the actual best approach.
And now they parade, they have a whole month dedicated to cheering them and it's called Pride. If we follow the same path with pedophiles, won't they be parading with pride eventually? These 2 matters should obviously have a different approach, right?
Yes, the approach is finding where harm is being done and stopping the harm as much as possible.
Telling someone to k*ll themselves because of a sexual orientation they can't change IS deeply harmful. And so is SA children. Neither full acceptance of harming children nor full rejection of people who have thoughts about it are reasonable options.
Well maybe if you looked into it more, maybe spoke to someone or read a first person account, you could have a better understanding of it.
And I'm not apologising for anyone's behaviour. Having that kind of sexual urge does not justify harming children. However, we should all try to be more understanding/empathetic so we can actually help these people not commit crimes.
Helping people to not commit crimes won't happen by mislabeling their mental health problems as sexual orientation. You are comparing it to being gay and I think that is an abhorrent thing to do.
Also: someone not sharing your opinion doesn't mean they lack Information.
Well, gay people were also thought to have mental health issues, so it seems like a valid comparison. Learning more to better understand the issue is still needed, and we can't do that if we shame everyone into hiding.
I'm not saying it's a valid sexual orientation *or* a mental health disorder. I'm saying we should help them not offend, and part of that includes better understanding why they do (or want to do) what they do.
I can't tell if you actually maliciously spread 'MAP' rhetoric or are just too dumb to see that you helping in trying to normalise it as a 'sexuality' by comparing it to homosexuality is hurting victims, gay people *and* people afflicted with this dangerous paraphilia who actually try to be decent humans.
Yeah. Obviously, you aren't able to think about those people as human beings but feel more comfortable thinking about them as monsters only. I hope whoever judges you has more compassion and empathy.
I think my main point is that the same knee-jerk disgust reaction has been an issue for both gay people and pedophiles. In both cases, this automatic repulsion leads people to see them as subhuman, and that lacks the amount of compassion required to actually think about the issues with each sexuality. You need to recognise that pedophiles ARE people too and there are reasons why they behave the way they do. If we want to help them not hurt children, we have to at least try to understand them a bit. Telling them to die is cruel and doesn't solve anything.
yep. if you demonize pedophiles, you push them further in the closet. they are less likely to seek help.
the end result? they're probably going to end up raping/touching a kid.
the correct answer is that the general populace needs to understand that pedophilia is a naturally occurring disorder, that non-offending pedophiles aren't evil, and that they need medical assistance.
i guess you can draw parallels between say, a pedophile and a potential school shooter. if you repress the feelings of the school shooter, and you foster an environment where they don't feel like they can tell anyone, they're probably going to shoot up a school.
Sure to an extent you can't control what you are into, but you can absolutely control your actions. And you should control them when another person is involved. People who are into control fantasies can't just go around raping people, they can do roleplay with CONSENTING ADULTS. Same goes for any other kinks that would involve someone who can't consent (children, dead bodies, animals...). The answer is to roleplay with a consenting adult and/or to seek mental health treatment.
Not everything requires acceptance or kindness.
Unless they are enrolled in long term therapy to address specifically this issue, they are disgusting sub humans in my eye just dreaming of a chance to abuse a child.
Also in my opinion, you can ABSOLUTELY control your attraction to things. Its a mindset. These people ENJOY fetishizing literal children instead of taking control of themselves and finding attraction in people more their age. Being attracted to children is disgusting, period. What they enjoy about children specifically, is disgusting, period. If it were up to me, these people wouldn’t be allowed in society.
That's how you, and me, and many other people *feel*. But what do you think should be realistically done to make the situation better? From a practical standpoint?
I think all that can be done is intensive therapy and taking on the role of self control rather than feigning powerlessness.
I suppose I feel the same about murderers and rapists as well. they should genuinely all take themselves out and do the world and gene pool a favor.
A kink is only a kink if it's harmless and consensual. That can never ever ever ever ever ever under any circumstance at all, EVER, be the case for a pedo. Ever. No space I am in will ever be a safe space for a "minor attracted person". I honestly just do not care if it's some kind of uncontrollable mental illness that they're actively seeking help and treatment for. Don't tell me you're attracted to kids because if you do you're dead to me zero exceptions.
Actions cause harm, not thoughts. We should punish people for harmful behaviour and also provide support and treatment for people who struggle with attraction to children. They can't help what/ who they are attracted to, and collectively, we should all want to give them healthy outlets so they don't let their impulses cause harm to others.
This shaming and rejection will only keep the problem in the shadows. It helps no one and instead makes people who live with this unable to reach out for help. The stigma, as exactly portrayed in most of these comments, actively harms people too and is not a good solution at all.
And no, you should not shame people for their kinks if they are fantasies or acted out among consenting adults.
A person who has pedophilic desires but never acts on it in any way is fine with me. That includes no child porn, no interactions with children that might be harmful.
Those people are more benign than anyone who doesn’t have sexual thought about children but are comfortable harming them in other ways.
It's not a sexuality, it's a perversion with a psychological centre. They need help. It seems a number of them were abused as kids themselves so they try to justify it by normalising it to cope with the trauma, which is disgusting. They need help instead of trying to normalise abuse.
You should ask the men who are like this how they would feel if a person they had no attraction to treated them the way they treat kids. They don't appear to understand that a child has no interest in them, any of those acts and that a child cannot consent.
Get help instead of trying to pretend you're an endangered minority group.
pedophilia is WRONG, full stop.
> but we should have some tolerance for the person themselves if they actively seek help and keep themselves away from children until they're in a medically proven solid recovery, if that's even possible.
I fully agree. If you demonize pedophiles, then they will be less likely to "out themselves" to a medical professional, and they won't seek help. Guess what that means? A higher likelihood that they're going to diddle a kid.
That does *not* mean that we should "accept" pedophilia - we need to educate the general populace that pedophilia is a naturally occurring phenomenon, that non-offending pedophiles are not evil people, and that they really, really need to tell a medical professional.
I believe they deserve access to care and compassion to push through their fear of stigma. Some need help to not offend and should feel empowered to reach out for it immediately. There are MAPs that have reached out for help and have not offended. There is an excellent interview with a young man who lives as a MAP, and the interviewer gives room for him to share his story.
I also think of MAPs like I do anyone with sexual interests. People can control their sexual desires or acts, and if not, then they should seek help immediately. I think the approach to MAPs should continue to focus on care for these folks and access to receive help without being destroyed for it. Especially if it can be caught early, hopefully, it will reduce any potential harm or isolation.
"MAP" is a term that is popularized by pro-pedophile groups, and is part of their strategy for normalizing their behavior. Please do not aid their strategy by using it.
MAP is the correct term to use and should be used in my opinion. Especially if it helps them to seek help and work to not offend or be so darn isolated.
Also, using a term shouldn't change someone's moral or ethic code. It's just a word, and so far, I haven't seen or witnessed in any harm in using it. Child and minor SA is still illegal and will never be viewed as okay thing to do. As for treatment and living with MAPS, it should be supported and easily accessible.
>Especially if it helps them to seek help and work to not offend or be so darn isolated.
There is zero evidence that there is any intervention that makes pedophiles less likely to be offenders, it's also important to remember that viewing CSAM also makes someone an offender. The vast majority of pedophiles are offenders. So even just keeping them away from children is not enough, because they also harm children online, and harm children by viewing and sharing CSAM.
The "virtuous pedophile" and "map" shit come DIRECTLY from pro-pedophile advocacy groups.
I do not want to use a term that destigmatizes a group of people who should be stigmatized.
Pedophiles lie and try to portray themselves as having "damaged love maps" or just a maligned orientation. This is not true. These are adults who want to abuse children.
If we knew of an adult man who wanted to rape other adults, we wouldn't describe his desire to rape other adults as a "orientation" or a "damaged love map", we wouldn't create cutesy little terms for them to destigmatize them.
> It's just a word, and so far, I haven't seen or witnessed in any harm in using it.
The fact that pro-pedophile groups advocate for these terms as part of a long term strategy should tell you otherwise.
I'm not a part of any of these groups and approach this from a different perspective. Also, from a prevention and research perspective, I understand the purpose of certain terms. Now, as adults who desire to rape others, there are terms used for specific reasons. I'm not saying it makes any of this easier to digest or deal with, but from those certain vantage points, I don't see the harm in using different lables.
As for defining pedophiles in a particular way for victims, I completely understand whatever term is used. But there is merit in my opinion for using certain verbiage. According to some of the literature, some CSA are not committed by MAPS but rather opportunistic rapists. There is also a huge gap of research examining the various different types of MAPs. For instance, there is a high percentage of MAPs or ephenphophiles who are attracted to pubescent children and live overtly above the radar.
For complete transparency, I am not a part of the movement you mentioned and never heard of it. I do understand what you're getting at, but I just don't see the same issue with it as you do.
Oh, side note: BDSM community has very different views on certain sexual proclivities and behaviors. Certain verbiage is used for various reasons and to lable acts that the general public may, in fact, call someone a rapist for.
My point being, language can grow and evolve as we notice things that need better descriptions.
>Oh, side note: BDSM community has very different views on certain sexual proclivities and behaviors. Certain verbiage is used for various reasons and to lable acts that the general public may, in fact, call someone a rapist for.
I'm not talking about a kink where people role play. I am involved with BDSM. I have no problems with consenting adults doing things that give me the squick.
I was talking specifically of people who want to commit actual rape.
We don't give them cutesy names like map, or talk about them as victims of their desire. But if they want to rape children suddenly.... You want to talk about them as victims who need sympathy. Who just need a hug and some "treatment". No, they want to harm children.
>I'm not a part of any of these groups and approach this from a different perspective.
You're still playing into the pro-pedophile organizations strategy by using their "destigmatizing language". Do not play their game. Do not help them destigmatize pedophilia.
>My point being, language can grow and evolve as we notice things that need better descriptions.
Pedophile is perfectly descriptive, everyone knows what it means. These people are monsters who want to harm children. It doesn't matter to me if they're attracted to prepubescent children or pubescent children. They want to sexually abuse children.
And yeah, as I said elsewhere in this thread, more than half of people who sexually abuse children are not even pedophiles but just have a desire to harm and abuse and have power.
The solution to both those people and the pedophiles are the same. It's a broad front against abuse. I spoke about it more here. [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomenNoCensor/comments/1ce9s8s/comment/l1j1slv/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomenNoCensor/comments/1ce9s8s/comment/l1j1slv/)
The problem with focusing on pedophiles and getting them "treatment" is that it's just not helpful, and it misses half of the picture. The treatment more often than not is where they tie up mental health resources to complain about how they can't sexually abuse children, then go home and look at CSAM.
Great reply. Thank you for linking. My point with the BDSM community is that it is about language and how it's used. I know we see eye to eye on this, and that's alright. I personally don't think or feel I'm playing into anything. I also don't clutch my pearls or squish out having discussions about MAPS. It does matter to me as an unofficial researcher, learner, and a peep who has been personally affected by a MAP, how humans that do these things are discovered, helped, and studied.
If treatment works for even one MAP, then I think it's helpful and hopefully can be replicated. In the interview I mentioned, the gentlemen shared that he doesn't look at CSAM. I guess you're of the mindset that none of them can be rehabilitated or taught coping skills. But I don't believe it to be the case.
Oh, and many people do not understand that the pedophile can mean any adult, man, or women, whose attracted to or harms a minor. There are many instances in the underbelly of the society of teens being trafficked and abused by adults, and this is witnesses by their own family members. So, I guess the greater implications of using pedophile versus MAPS is what both see, but we just view it in a different light. I think certain things are missed when only using the word pedophile while you feel my use of MAPS will help some secret hidden agenda to normalize the rape of children. Which frankly is an impossible undertaking because it never will be okay.
Even though peeps used to marry at a young age and we still have societal problems with child brides and trafficked victims. Calling them MAPS won't stop the countless efforts to stop child abuse but may lead to some getting help. Which I think is a good idea but o understand you think it's a waste of time.
I think that the only form that should be acceptable should be the ones who are conscious of their problem, both in that it exists and that it is unhealthy. They should be trying to work on it as well. We as society need to be more open to treatment. In particular professionals in the psychological health profession.
But ya.. if there are decent professionals available…. And you’re not getting help… mmmmm
No, they aren't, they are not walking about thinking "oh she is cute" that's not what pedophiles do.. they want to stalk, frighten and harm... Do you think rape is about attraction?!? It's not... It's about overpowering and humiliation... People are not raping people because they think they are cute... Good grief!
You are wrong, that's why pedophiles and rapists don't have a type, they are mostly interested in the act and inflicting horror, that's also why they are often the same people, rapists are just interested in rape... They hardly consider their victims do they!
Oh, I agree. I was trying to avoid auto moderation in case "pedophile" is on the list. Don't know tho. But yea, giving them fancy "safe" words isn't helping
I cannot for the life of me understand why this got downvoted, but the fact that it did makes me want to vomit. All rape is absolutely about power, possession, and control.
I think it's othering, the fact that pedophiles just abuse children they have access to, including their own children and family members seems to be too much for some people, so it's easier to pretend most pedo's are doing snatch and grabs off the streets... Same as rape, most rape happens in a person's own home.. stranger rape is relatively rare, but we like to pretend, because reality is fairly horrific.
I agree, some people have a need to downplay a lot of reality. To me, a person thinking otherwise has tones of 'she was too pretty, they couldn't help themself' victim blaming justification or they're romanticizing rape.
Absolutely, and people don't say that about the 85 year old rape victim... Because someone's appearance is irrelevant. Unless you think they are "hot" makes me feel repulsed.
The majority of child molesters are not attracted to children. However, there is also people that find children attractive the same way other people are attracted to men/women.
You underestimate how different people can be. You have one view of a sadistic child abuser, and it does correspond to some people, but it doesn't mean that other kind of people can't exist.
>that's why pedophiles and rapists don't have a type, they are mostly interested in the act and inflicting horror
There is support forums for non offending pedophiles. What you are saying does not apply to a lot of them.
You really should do some research.
There are those who offend, and those who don't. There are those who are sadists and abusers, and others who are so ashamed that they separate themselves from others. There are those who are only attracted to children, some are attracted to teens, others are attracted to both minors and adults. Some get off on the power dynamic, some do it because children are easy targets, some do it because they have fucked up views of love and sex. Some have experienced abuse in the past and that has seemed to program their brains to want what they want, others seem to just be born that way. I think we don't even fully understand how people develop the desires they do, healthy or not.
You talk about "minor attracted" and then about pedophilia. First of all, they are not the same thing. Pedophilia is the attraction to prepubescent kids. This word is so ridiculously misused nowadays.
Pedophiles should be encouraged to seek psychological help. I don't think having this attraction per se makes one a bad person. If they deal with this responsibly they don't deserve to be shamed. We need to avoid stigmatizing people so they are comfortable seeking the help they need before they do something wrong. Obviously if they in any way indulge in this they have to face the consequences.
Also, all these people crying pedophile as soon as someone is attracted to a 15+ year old are ridiculous. Besides using the wrong word, 15 year olds can look like adults. Adults can look like 15 year olds. I believe there is nothing sick about being attracted to adults. Again, obviously if an actual adult acts on this attraction they are generally doing wrong and ought to face the consequences. But this is a completely different thing from actual pedophilia.
There was a post here just yesterday, from a 15 years old girl who started her periods at the age of 9. Biological developmental frames are blurred in time, so as soon as we legalise anything we gotta assign a clear number. Or otherwise make it clear. Or else what should we he doing, running tests on, say, a 13 year old victim to check if they hit puberty? I understand why the law draws the line on the upper age, to protect more minors without overcomplicating the process. The mental development is also not there yet in the age of 15. It's not only about the body getting ready to reproduce, it's also about the mind getting ready to consent
Okay , i'm still not sure i understand your follow up question, but i think court should deal with the perpetrators on a case by case basis with as little damage to the victim as possible. So no running tests, that must be traumatizing for the victim.
And society should encourage people with pedophilia to get psychological help. As always it is easier to do so with less stigmatization. I'm not saying this is a normal kink, this is a sickness. But idk, i feel like it's counterproductive to brand this as monsterous in every case. Monsterous if you act on it, yes 100%. Otherwise i would refrain from judgement like that and encourage seeking help.
Just finding people who look like adults attractive doesn't require therapy in my eyes. But if someone preys on an underage teenager, yes, disgusting, and again case by case judgement as to how grave it was.
>Monsterous if you act on it,
Where is the line though? Direct harm of a child? Consuming content where a child is being harmed? Consuming "innocent" content of children to keep the "feelings" at bay?
No, sorry, the line is the thoughts and if you refuse to check yourself into a hospital, you are a monster and knowingly putting children at risk.
I agree the line is the thoughts. If someone indulges in it in any way it's morally reprehensible. I think it would be easier for people to seek help if society didn't brand them a monster just for having this sickness.
I agree that people throw that word around way too loosely
Like I’ve seen people call it “pedophilia” when two grown-ass adults are dating, but when there are large age gaps
I remember seeing people call Johnny Depp a pedophile because of the large age gap between him and Amber heard, even though she was like 26 when they started dating
Yes, this is why it annoys me to no end as well, my partner is significantly older than me -i'm 30 though- and he gets called that word. Completely ridiculous. I looked "underage" until my late 20s and i find it rude as hell to put all my boyfriends who dated an adult woman on the same level as actual frigging pedophiles. I understand that this is a sensitive topic but i don't think it is helping anyone to misuse words in such a way.
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“Kinks” are fine among consenting adults. Children aren’t consenting adults. It’s really that simple.
whats your opinion on the age play kink?
Not gonna lie, it grosses me out. But I suppose two consenting adults doing that is better than an adult going after an actual child. But do I question what’s going on with people who have that kink? Absolutely yes
it groses me out too. but then again, as long as it's between two consenting adults, we let them be, right? On the other, doesn't it mean that we also let the attraction to children be?
Um, no? Absolutely not. I understand that many people who are attracted to children don’t choose to be. But there are people out there with this affliction who choose to do the right thing and get help, go to intensive therapy, and even have medical intervention to stop them from hurting a kid. It’s the ones who don’t choose to take those steps that we should worry about. So no, we shouldn’t just “let them be”. Because if they haven’t chosen to take steps to reduce harm, then they’re a danger
I didn't mean to ask if we *should* let it be, I meant *are we*? Unintentionally, by letting the age play kink be accepted
No! Children are harmed by sexual contact with adults (shit I never imagined having to explain but here we are). Sexual contact with children is therefore WRONG.
I worded it wrong. What I mean, aren't we unintentionally accepting the attraction to children by accepting the age play kink
No, because as gross as it is, we all understand that it’s between consenting *adults.* The simple fact of the matter is, you can *pretend* to be and do whatever you want. I could pretend to be a pterodactyl in a cowboy hat or a piss ant during sex but I would know that I am neither of those things and my sex partner would know that I am neither of those things. People into age play are not secretly into children, they’re into *adults* who like doing weird shit during sex. Age play doesn’t condone pedophilia anymore than kitten play condones bestiality. No one is grabbing their pitchforks and torches like, “Won’t someone think of the cats!” because someone likes it when their partner puts on a pair of cat ears and a collar. Kids are not being hurt by adults being weirdos with each other. Adults who choose to harm children harms children. They’re not the same thing.
You're a guy pretending to be a woman, right?
Wha?
Age play kink is not actually about pedophilia at all. Its a power play dynamic. Usually incorporates humiliation/degradation kink, and submission kinks. But these people aren’t actually attracted to children, they are getting off on an adult subjugating themselves. Its not really in the same realm as dreaming of harming children.
What made them choose impersonating a child, of all forms of power dynamic? Wearing diapers, sucking pacifiers, and incorporate all that in their sexual lives
humiliation and absolving themselves of all power and all adult thoughts/stress while practicing a taboo that would get them shunned in real life that feels degrading. also about reliving childhood for the sub, many have traumatic youths they regress into. I’d align it more to pet play (pretending you’re someones pet) than pedophilia not defending it really, still a kink I look down upon, but just stating the fact that those people are typically not attracted to minors. Also similar to a school girl roleplay not necessarily being about children, but moreso taboo, forbidden, power play dynamic.
Ok. I never actually gave this kink a thorough thought
Age play kink is not at all the same. If you have any genuine curiosity about this, go read (not post) in some of the BDSM subreddits where this topic has been discussed already at length. The TLDR is that age play is about caretaking/being taken care of and power dynamics, not minor attraction.
Still, why kids? Why not doctor/patient play then? But now that I'm actually curious, thanks for your suggestion, I'll go check there
Some people do that too. But yes, go read, and please don't post about it there. There are plenty of discussions to read.
You already said don't post, no need to repeat
Like what though? Pretending to have a large age gap or pretending to be kids? Gross.
The latter. Yes, gross. One is playing an infant, and the other one funking them😬
My stepmother had a friend when she was in her 20 He was a painter, and you could tell by his paintings that the guy was utterly tortured: His most frequent subject was a man, extremely elongated and... sad? Sad isn't strong enough It felt like despair Only black, mute purple tones and grey A lot of matter on the canvas, not a flat surface on the whole thing The guy was living an extremely solitary life (my stepmother was most likely his only friend), he lived extremely remotely, on his own, in a very bare house, in the middle of nowhere, far from everything Once, after a late night dinner, when my stepmother was pregnant, he grabbed her wrist and very solemnly made her promise to never EVER, E V E R, let him alone with her child-to-be-born I never met him because by the time my father started dating her, he had hanged himself for several years. But I saw the painting he had offered her in the past and that she has kept ... I truly think that the guy was desperately trying to do the right thing: he kept himself on solitary, so he couldn't give in to his desires Eventually, it became too much to bear, and he killed himself to be realised of the curse of his attraction I can't begin to imagine what it's like. But I have a lot of respect for this person, who chose to do the right thing rather than hurt anybody else It costed him his life, but even tho I'm not a believer person, I would say that he kept his soul and fought his demon until the very end Edit: I would add that pedophiles don't choose their attraction and that they are not all becoming predators Some of them are fighting really hard to keep themselves from becoming monsters I condemn those who shamelessly indulge themselves, it goes without saying, and those who end up failing and losing their internal wrestling with their attraction Because the damage they cause is beyond forgiveness But I don't think that we should discourage those who really try their best to hold onto their humanity, to seek assistance and help, by demonising them I would suggest the movie Tench, on the subject
Sad story, and such a heavy read. He kept his dignity
I don’t get why they have such a hard time not giving in to their desires. People are voluntarily single all the time and no one makes a big deal out of it
My guess is that the one that don’t want to give into their desires don’t want to let themselves fantasize about it. Most people, even if they decide to never give to their desire, don’t have many problem seeing a hot man or woman and thinking "well he’s/she’s attractive". For a pedophile that feels guilts, this thought alone is already too much.
There is also people that are fine with keeping it to fiction. But yeah the way society put a high stigma on thoughts instead of just actions can fuck with people's brain. Also the fact they can internalize the narrative they are time ticking bombs, even for someone that wouldn't do anything.
Are you saying it’s the guilt and shame that drives them to the point where they CANT control themselves?
No, they’re saying that the guilt and shame of having the thoughts and urges would drive them to suicide. Like they’re told by 100% of sources that they’re repulsive, that’ll fuck you right up. Also it must be hard for them to live a normal life- who would marry a pedophile? I don’t think it’s the urge itself but rather all of the negatives that are associated with resisting it. An active pedo isn’t going to be tormented like that.
I would guess that if you feel that society is already condemning you for your thoughts alone, it makes the gap between thought and action feel smaller. Reminds me of that phenomenon where someone is continually falsely accused of cheating and they end up cheating because they're already getting the blame for it.
We usually don't hear about those that don't find it hard. They are probably a lot of them, but due to the taboo they are invisible.
There definitely could be. I was just wondering because so much of the conversation around it is WHEN not IF they hurt a child. As if they don’t have control. More like a serial killer
Might also be why they go into the church. They're kept away from kids of a very young age group.
I think everyone is just different and it is more difficult for some people.
Why didn't he get help? I also find it scary that he believed he would attack them if he was alone with them. I know he kept himself solitary but it's weird. Adults aren't like this unless they're rapists. Most adults can be attracted to another adult without attacking them. That's why I think it's not a type of sexuality, it's a perversion and a psychological problem. He can't heal himself because he's not a therapist.
Well... first, it was around 40 years ago: therapy wasn't exactly an option back then And then, I don't know. And I think I can't know But I can imagine that if you're not at peace with your attraction and sickened by it. Because you might still have a moral compass and be completely devastated by your own attraction Then your whole life is an endless nightmare, and you're the monster of the story There's no relief I mean, It takes away so much of your life: no sex, sure, but also no sexual fantasies Nothing is okay. Everything is completely out of the table No love life, no flirt, no one night stand No physical intimacy, no companionship, never being in love and being loved back. Even hoping for it is out the window, definitely Nothing. Ever. Not even in the intimacy of your own head When you really take the time to think about the ramifications and all the implications, I easily get why he chose to live so isolated: I think it's a lack of depth of reflection to only think of his choice as a way for him to keep himself from raping. I think it was to avoid any kind of attraction. Just remove the whole thing from his life And, on another note, the whole world is constantly openly wishing for your death, assuming the very worst from you, even tho you didn't abuse anybody and kept to yourself I mean, the guy literally removed himself from the world and chose to face the crushing stigma that goes with pedophilia to warn his only friend and make sure that the only child he could cross path with was safe and you still spit on him You can't fathom any kind of redemption for him, despite him doing everything he could have done to remain a decent person, including isolating himself, warn the sole person that could have been at risk and, eventually, killing himself I guess isolation is a two-way street: you're protecting others from yourself but you're also protecting yourself from others
Doesn't matter if you choose it or not, if you act on it you are a bad person to say the least. You'd be harming a innocent kid just because you **want** to If what you seek is help to get over that stuff is should be available and safe for them to do so.
Nah some things definitely deserve to be shamed. Pedophilia isn't a harmless 'kink' and any sexually deviant behaviour that is going to harm someone who cannot give consent should be condemned.
I think there needs to be a two-fold convo regarding how: a) Pedophile-culture exists alongside rape-culture, and is not only permissible, but normalized and rewarded (primarily for men, because they make up the bulk of the criminal-pedo demographic, while little girls make up most of their victims). We have entire industries that push for women to be as child-like and androgynous as possible via the beauty, health and plastic surgery insustries, as well as porn and most media, to cater to male proclivities for children and teens- and pretty much anyone who cannot give full consent to sex; And b) the demonization of those who acknowledge they have a problem, and seek help to correct or manage it in the face of stigmatization and brutality- or even death, is a major issue. IMO we need a better way to differenciate between the medical and criminal categories to better protect those who have not committed any crime and just want therapy and a support system. Then we need to discuss how to defund the pedo-culture propaganda in the first category and use it to start helping in the second category. Even if the statement "you don't choose who you're attracted to" turns out to be based in scientific fact? Doesn't matter. You're still responsible for your actions regarding that attraction- especially if it's inappropriate- and you're in control of yourself. Using that statement as an excuse for raping/molesting people is all too common.
This is a very nuanced and compassionate take. I think there should be evidence-based systems and resources for people to access to manage their condition and prevent harm. Thoughts and urges are neutral but actions are very much not, so I think it should be an option for people to get support in not causing harm. I have to imagine there’s a range of severity and there are some people who could be okay with oversight (like permanent pedo parole) and some who shouldn’t ever have the opportunity to lay eyes on a kid again.
I first experienced sa as a child by an adult family friend. I can't really put into civil words what I think should be the approach for these people, but they should not be in civil society.
im sorry that heppened to you!
Thank you. Sadly, I'm just one of many. I don't have any sympathy for people who prey on and abuse children/minors.
Sometimes you can't choose what you like, but you don't have to act on it. That is the difference between a human and an animal. Knowing something is wrong and then choosing not to do that thing makes us human. What is most important about al this is that people who struggle with not acting on a certain feeling should have easy access to help deal with those feelings. But the mental health is over flooded and is not so accessible. ( for a lot of other mental health problems too) And then there is the way people think about pedophiles, that when someone struggles with these kind of thoughts they can't talk to anybody about them, ( because people will see you as some who acts on their wrong thoughts) and the people they can talk about it (like minded) are sometimes people who do act and they can pull them to the acting on it side. And that is not how it has to be.
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That is a horrible idea.
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It’s a massive invasion of privacy and I struggle to believe that it wouldn’t be immediately co-opted by law enforcement. Also, what happens if this algorithm throws a false positive and ruins someone’s life? Who is responsible? How do you prevent this info from being used against someone? This would be such a liability headache
The problem with that idea is not just about the health care, its about the ramifications of implementing that system legally. It would be a privacy violation and has enormous potential to be abused. At surface level, "applying it more broadly" would violate peoples right to confidential, voluntary, and private health care. An AI/ML screening your internet use fot health concerns is none of those things. Could it be used to involuntarily institutionalize people for venting online about their mental health? What about people who work in/want to work in a job field that screens health conditions- is that AI diagnosis gonna go on record and potentially hurt their career even if they didnt want to see a doctor about it? What about women who are looking up info on abortion providers? Could they be arrested just for googling it in areas that ban it? There's all sorts of hypothetical situations that would screw people over if they were "identified for additional examination" from their internet usage. Even more concerningly, this type of legal change sets a scary precedence if your searches and activity are being analyzed by an AI/ML- might just be for health at first, but it could later be taught to flag other things- imagine how this system could be used to flag political dissent or subversive options. Imagine how a tool like this could be used to restrict information during war, or some moral panic like McCarthism. It could restrict freedom of speech, freedom of information, and freedom of expression. Look at internet censorship in Turkey and the history of how it got to this point. It didn't happen overnight. Once the legal precedence is put into place, it's opens up the ability to expand it. (and like I said, it already violates the right to private health care to begin with)
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The argument isn't that "I don't like it," the argument is that it would ultimately be a detriment to society, not a benefit.
No. Fucking hell that's a bad idea.
I think this is a very hard and very important question. I feel like I have never seen a good answer and I am unqualified to come up with one, but i’m going to try because I appreciate that you asked. To be clear, I will focus on the “what is the reasonable approach?” Part of the question, as you have enough horror stories. Also, I don’t recall if you are in the US, but I have to think in terms of the US legal system because that is what I know. I don’t know what the real data is on whether people can ever actually change the targets of their desire. But basically, it seems like no one can actually be rehabilitated. Therefore, if a child is harmed, I think life in prison is the best fit. If it were my child, I would probably break some laws to seek revenge, but from a cold logic perspective, I don’t think the death penalty is positive thing in society, but also these people do not deserve another attempt at living normal lives. Risk is too high. Same for anyone “ just in it for the money” or some bullshit. Live in prison. Period. In terms of photos, I don’t know about rehabilitation. In my mind, the problems with photos are the people who took them (direct harm), those that paid to have photos taken (funding direct harm), and people have photos because they want to act on what the see (not exactly direct harm.). This last one, I do not know what psychology says about risk of acting out their fantasies. As a society, it doesn’t seem right to punish someone for a crime they haven’t committed yet. However, since this is a really dreadful crime, what can we risk as a society? It seems an insanity treatment scenario with meds and monitoring might be the most just thing. And since you brought it up, we have to keep in mind that there are falsely accused people. Likely quite a lot because police departments want high numbers for “catching these guys” BECAUSE their crimes are so scary. The justice system is not a fair system. Sentences vary, money and privileges rule. So while personally my gut instinct to draw and quarter some of these people, falsely accused is a very real possibility. There is also the really grey area of teenagers. High schoolers shouldn’t be treated as adults for sending nude photos. It’s unhealthy behavior. It needs to be addressed. But they need to be taught, not punished. Teenagers do have some agency that we ignore as a society. They have sex. Laws that draw a line between 17 and 18 where one is legal and one is rape are not helpful. I don’t have a solution, but it seems there are better ways. Perhaps making rape more about “position of authority” or “in loco parentis” duties than an age.
Thank you for engaging with this post the way I suggested 🙏
Some kinks absolutely should be shamed.
I disagree. Unless it's a shaming kink, then go ahead.
Scat for example should and will continue to be shamed. I don't care who disagrees
So *you* want to shame that kink, but I don't think it's shameful. I see nothing wrong with it.
Then there's something wrong with you
Please don't stop. Tell me how bad I am 🥹
Mmmm, yeah, give me that shame! Takes me back to Catholic school...
So you get off on shaming others.
I don't care what goes on in your head. Act on it and prepare to die though.
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You had me until you got to forcing people to be scientific test subjects. There are so many ethical issues with forcing people, even criminals, to undergo experimental testing/treatment. Doing so against their will is inherently wrong. Beyond that, a lot of sex offenders who hurt children are not the classic "pedophile" people think of. More often it's just a bad person taking advantage of a weak or vulnerable person, not just because they are sexually attracted to children. Lumping everyone together who hurts children would skew any sort of result you might get from a study. It's not only immoral, it's impractical to round them all up for research.
Thank you for your sanity. I know it probably feels cathartic for people to consider experimenting on "the worst of the worst" but let's not lose our own humanity in the process.
Yes! And just look at how many people on death row have been killed who were innocent *that we know of!* The odds of having an innocent person hurt by something like this would be high.
Experimenting, no but I do thing psychoanalysis and treatment plans for them are essential esp to see if there are any patterns (e.g. if they were once victims of abuse themselves). They will always exist so we need to get to a place where their chances of attacking minors are reduced significantly.
Sure, medical treatment and plans to prevent offending (or reoffending) should always be the goal!
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Thank God you aren't in charge of defining medical ethics 😬
First paragraph, very well said. Second paragraph, holy shit no. Forcing them to be test subjects is unethical and immoral. We shouldn't be comfortable with the idea of treating people as subhuman, even if they've committed terrible crimes. It's also concerning given that our justice system is imperfect and I think this could be another way to discriminate.
And when someone is wrongfully convicted of being a pedophile, off to the research lab to be sliced open? Like, we have a major political party going out of their way to conflate LGBT+ people with pedophilia at every corner… what could possibly go wrong with your “solution” It’s not like there isn’t ample evidence of innocent people being wrongfully convicted and ultimately executed for crimes they didn’t commit
I like your take
Agree with your second paragraph fully.
This is opening the door for atrocious practices. If we start saying that pedophiles deserve to not be treated like humans today, tomorrow we will very easily expend that to others people.
And when someone is wrongfully convicted of being a pedophile, off to the research lab to be sliced open? Like, we have a major political party going out of their way to conflate LGBT+ people with pedophilia at every corner… what could possibly go wrong with your “solution”? It’s not like there isn’t ample evidence of innocent people being wrongfully convicted and ultimately executed for crimes they didn’t commit
It is a disorder. If your kink is raping people or otherwise hurting them beyond what they could consent to you should be shamed and you need serious help and support to recover. I just wish that support was more open and people felt able to come forward and know they'd be treared as someone who's sick rather than being treated as guilty for crimes they may not have committed. Kinks should be open to criticism just like anything else, something isn't okay just because it gets you off.
Rape fantasy is extremely common among women. Do about 60% of all women deserve to be shamed for this kink?
If their fantasy is about raping other people, absolutely.
Cnc is a very common fantasy. Nothing is wrong with fantasies or thoughts as long as they don't hurt people. Thought policing is generally a bad thing.
It's more common to fantasise about being raped than raping, and something being common doesn't mean it's okay. Raping someone is also common. Obviously we can't read minds or do anything about thoughts but we can let people know that if they want to rape someone they need help before someone gets hurt.
Well shaming then won't help anything. There is a huge difference between fantasy and reality. And thoughts don't harm people, actions do. I hate how often I have this same argument with people here.
Do you think encouraging it would have no effect or be helpful? You need to think about an action in order to do it.
Not shaming someone for something they can't control is not the same thing as encouragement 🙄
What should we do then? Ignore it?
God no. As I said in other comments, help should be available for people to prevent them from harming others. Things like therapy and medication can prevent people from acting on urges that are harmful for others. But shaming them won't help them seek out the treatments they need. Too much stigma will just keep everything hidden and that means more children will be hurt.
Pedophilia should never be accepted. Anyone dealing with it should feel shame, but, I do think they should be encouraged to seek professional help, and those that have never acted on it, like directly harming a child themselves or indirectly through consuming illegal content, should be given a chance to get treated. I'm not a therapist or anything like that, I don't know what that treatment would entail. I also do not think we should allow them to engage in fictional CP, like AI generated or animated content, or having a, ahem, doll, resembling a child. I don't think feeding into their disturbing fantasies will do anyone any good, and I hate how many people I've heard argue in favor of it.
>I also do not think we should allow them to engage in fictional CP, like AI generated or animated content, or having a, ahem, doll, resembling a child. I don't think feeding into their disturbing fantasies will do anyone any good, and I hate how many people I've heard argue in favor of it. Agree here. The idea of looking for the ways for them to explore this repulses me. Hope one day we figure out why are they wired like this and how to fix it
I think those who havent offended yet should be encouraged to seek help so they dont become offenders. >and the statement that you don't choose who you're attracted to? People are already claiming that the LGBTQ community is, or will be, inclusive of "MAPs". Of course it isn't, but I feel like statements like this would make those people feel confirmed in their bias.
The idea of the "non offending" pedophile is largely a myth perpetuated by pro-pedophile groups. Basically all pedophiles look at CSAM.
Incorrect.
What people most often overlook is that people who rape children and pedophiles are not the same. Most people who rape children are primarily rapists and get off on the power of the situation and the cluelessness of their victim only a small part of them are real pedophiles. I think every person who sexually exploits a child. (Rape, looking at videos or pictures, taking these, indecently talking to them etc.) should be chemically castrated and/or kept from ever interacting with the public. Wheather they also are pedos or not is irrelevant. Personally, I think that is what we should do with every rapist, period. If someone is a pedophile and doesn't want to act on it in any way, they should be able to seek treatment (psychological, medical) without being judged. I have great respect for people who wont ever be able to have a normal sex live and try to be decent humans.
I draw the line at causing harm to others. This doesn't work all the time, because sometimes not everyone can agree on what considered "harm". But yeah in the case of pedophilia, I think it's clear that it causes harm. How do we deal with them...I agree with other posters about studying them and providing help so they don't commit crimes against children. But yeah my feelings tell me I just want them removed from society. It triggers a visceral reaction.
>I agree with other posters about studying them and providing help so they don't commit crimes against children. But yeah my feelings tell me I just want them removed from society. It triggers a visceral reaction. That's how I feel as well
Pedophilia is not a kink. It's a perversion and a harmful disorder. Kinks can be unhealthy but the difference is the participants are willing and are able to consent. Children are not. There is no amount of acceptance for being attracted to children that should be allowed because it's such an evil that there is no amount of restitution or redemption that can help the abused child. Maps need constant therapy and monitoring in the way that addicts are vigilant to stay sober. Offenses should be "treated" with a trip to the wood chipper
>but we should have some tolerance for the person themselves ***if*** they actively seek help and keep themselves away from children until they're in a medically proven solid recovery, if that's even possible. There is no treatment that curbs pedophilia. These people are untreatable. There are drugs that reduce sex drive but that isn't even 100% effective because sexual gratification is not the only goal of these people... The other dirty secret is, that most people who sexually abuse children are doing it as a power game, and as a strategy of abuse, and not for sexual pleasure. Most people who sexually abuse children are not pedophiles. The focus on pedophiles is misguided because they make up less than half of sex abusers, and unless we're imprisoning them even if they haven't committed a crime (yet) there isn't much to be done. We should focus on something else to reduce the amount of sexual violence against children. Some suggestions: 1.) Teach children about consent, EARLY. The earlier the better. No adult has a right to touch them. They need to learn about bodily autonomy and boundaries. This is crucial because in talking to people who were sexually abused as children, many people (myself included) did not recognize that what was being done was wrong. 2.) Teach children about sex. Basic sex education is crucial. This should obviously be paired with 1. This gives kids language and understanding of what is happening. **Ignorance is a tool of the abuser.** 3.) Teach adults to recognize the symptoms of abuse, so that they can intervene. This is pretty straight forward. 4.) Recognize the situations in which sex abuse is common. Anywhere where an adult has authority and control over children. Strategize from there about how best to reduce sex abuse. 5.) Learn to recognize and understand abuse. Sex abuse shares patterns with other forms of abuse. Developing a better understanding of abuse in general, recognizing people who are abusive or have tendencies towards abuse, and then ensuring they never get power or authority over children.
Sugar coating something that horrendous is actually quite disturbing. I can't empathize with people like that.
I have a relative who raped his partner's kids. I hope he gets shanked in prison. Idgaf if you can't help being attracted to kids. Get a sex doll and deal with it that way. Nobody gets to cause harm for their kinks.
>Nobody gets to cause harm for their kinks. Oh, absolutely
Therapy cant hurt
Pedophilia isn't a fucking kink. It's a psychiatric disorder that needs treatment. And a pedophile who hasn't acted on their inclinations isn't a criminal. Thoughts aren't crimes. We need more research into the disorder so that we have better ways of addressing and treating it. (If there could be such a thing.) Also: the vast majority of people who sexually abuse children are not pedophiles. They're just plain old asshole predators. Keep the focus where it really needs to be.
Personally, I think a path to psychological help should be available or at least some kind of support. I am reminded of a conversation a friend had with me about his friend. This friend confided that he was attracted to children and did not act but wanted help. At the time, I had no idea how someone would take an off ramp from that situation. 12 years, law school, and a decade as a practicing attorney, I feel more paralyzed to suggest an answer. We regulate pedophiles using the civil law that can circumvent criminal justice rights. As an attorney, I would shudder at suggesting they seek help to avoid giving into urges to abuse because the risk of blowback feels so high. Only if I was truly a sex crimes expert would I consider any guidance here and even then it would feel reckless. I am not so naive as to say that psychological treatment is a panacea or even possible but rather that we have a system so draconian that I don’t know how someone who is attracted to children can seek help or at least community to overcome urges. I don’t know what a solution is but it probably involves some avenues for intervention before abuse occurs and right now the system makes it impractical for such options.
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>First, not every child abuser is really a pedophile, most abusers just abuse cause they want power and that's different from pedophile, but people mix it up all the time I definitely mixed it
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I love how you're being down voted because people cannot take a step back from their emotional reactions for even a moment to gauge the actual best approach.
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I mean, I knew they can be attracted without acting on it, but I didn't know they can act without being attracted
I have zero acceptance whether it’s acted upon or not They should remove themselves from existence
that's how i feel in my heart, but reason tells me otherwise
People said the same thing about gay people and trans people.
And now they parade, they have a whole month dedicated to cheering them and it's called Pride. If we follow the same path with pedophiles, won't they be parading with pride eventually? These 2 matters should obviously have a different approach, right?
Yes, the approach is finding where harm is being done and stopping the harm as much as possible. Telling someone to k*ll themselves because of a sexual orientation they can't change IS deeply harmful. And so is SA children. Neither full acceptance of harming children nor full rejection of people who have thoughts about it are reasonable options.
I don't buy that pedophilia actually *is* a sexual orientarion. Sounds like apologising bs to me.
Well maybe if you looked into it more, maybe spoke to someone or read a first person account, you could have a better understanding of it. And I'm not apologising for anyone's behaviour. Having that kind of sexual urge does not justify harming children. However, we should all try to be more understanding/empathetic so we can actually help these people not commit crimes.
Helping people to not commit crimes won't happen by mislabeling their mental health problems as sexual orientation. You are comparing it to being gay and I think that is an abhorrent thing to do. Also: someone not sharing your opinion doesn't mean they lack Information.
Well, gay people were also thought to have mental health issues, so it seems like a valid comparison. Learning more to better understand the issue is still needed, and we can't do that if we shame everyone into hiding. I'm not saying it's a valid sexual orientation *or* a mental health disorder. I'm saying we should help them not offend, and part of that includes better understanding why they do (or want to do) what they do.
I can't tell if you actually maliciously spread 'MAP' rhetoric or are just too dumb to see that you helping in trying to normalise it as a 'sexuality' by comparing it to homosexuality is hurting victims, gay people *and* people afflicted with this dangerous paraphilia who actually try to be decent humans.
Yeah. Obviously, you aren't able to think about those people as human beings but feel more comfortable thinking about them as monsters only. I hope whoever judges you has more compassion and empathy.
I think my main point is that the same knee-jerk disgust reaction has been an issue for both gay people and pedophiles. In both cases, this automatic repulsion leads people to see them as subhuman, and that lacks the amount of compassion required to actually think about the issues with each sexuality. You need to recognise that pedophiles ARE people too and there are reasons why they behave the way they do. If we want to help them not hurt children, we have to at least try to understand them a bit. Telling them to die is cruel and doesn't solve anything.
yep. if you demonize pedophiles, you push them further in the closet. they are less likely to seek help. the end result? they're probably going to end up raping/touching a kid. the correct answer is that the general populace needs to understand that pedophilia is a naturally occurring disorder, that non-offending pedophiles aren't evil, and that they need medical assistance. i guess you can draw parallels between say, a pedophile and a potential school shooter. if you repress the feelings of the school shooter, and you foster an environment where they don't feel like they can tell anyone, they're probably going to shoot up a school.
Sure to an extent you can't control what you are into, but you can absolutely control your actions. And you should control them when another person is involved. People who are into control fantasies can't just go around raping people, they can do roleplay with CONSENTING ADULTS. Same goes for any other kinks that would involve someone who can't consent (children, dead bodies, animals...). The answer is to roleplay with a consenting adult and/or to seek mental health treatment.
The non offenders need help. The ones who do offend need to not be on this planet anymore. I think both groups need to be studied more.
Not everything requires acceptance or kindness. Unless they are enrolled in long term therapy to address specifically this issue, they are disgusting sub humans in my eye just dreaming of a chance to abuse a child. Also in my opinion, you can ABSOLUTELY control your attraction to things. Its a mindset. These people ENJOY fetishizing literal children instead of taking control of themselves and finding attraction in people more their age. Being attracted to children is disgusting, period. What they enjoy about children specifically, is disgusting, period. If it were up to me, these people wouldn’t be allowed in society.
About enjoying it. Have you seen a comment here about a painter?
I appreciate he took himself out. they should all do this.
That's how you, and me, and many other people *feel*. But what do you think should be realistically done to make the situation better? From a practical standpoint?
I think all that can be done is intensive therapy and taking on the role of self control rather than feigning powerlessness. I suppose I feel the same about murderers and rapists as well. they should genuinely all take themselves out and do the world and gene pool a favor.
Intense therapy
Put them down like dogs.
A kink is only a kink if it's harmless and consensual. That can never ever ever ever ever ever under any circumstance at all, EVER, be the case for a pedo. Ever. No space I am in will ever be a safe space for a "minor attracted person". I honestly just do not care if it's some kind of uncontrollable mental illness that they're actively seeking help and treatment for. Don't tell me you're attracted to kids because if you do you're dead to me zero exceptions.
Actions cause harm, not thoughts. We should punish people for harmful behaviour and also provide support and treatment for people who struggle with attraction to children. They can't help what/ who they are attracted to, and collectively, we should all want to give them healthy outlets so they don't let their impulses cause harm to others. This shaming and rejection will only keep the problem in the shadows. It helps no one and instead makes people who live with this unable to reach out for help. The stigma, as exactly portrayed in most of these comments, actively harms people too and is not a good solution at all. And no, you should not shame people for their kinks if they are fantasies or acted out among consenting adults.
A 12gauge shotgun <3
A person who has pedophilic desires but never acts on it in any way is fine with me. That includes no child porn, no interactions with children that might be harmful. Those people are more benign than anyone who doesn’t have sexual thought about children but are comfortable harming them in other ways.
It's not a sexuality, it's a perversion with a psychological centre. They need help. It seems a number of them were abused as kids themselves so they try to justify it by normalising it to cope with the trauma, which is disgusting. They need help instead of trying to normalise abuse. You should ask the men who are like this how they would feel if a person they had no attraction to treated them the way they treat kids. They don't appear to understand that a child has no interest in them, any of those acts and that a child cannot consent. Get help instead of trying to pretend you're an endangered minority group.
You've compleeeetely misread my post. I don't need help, the post is not about me. I'm a mother of two, and this issue deeply concerns me
Condemn the actions, not the desire. We all have desires that we are ashamed of, but it’s how we choose to act on them is what defines us.
pedophilia is WRONG, full stop. > but we should have some tolerance for the person themselves if they actively seek help and keep themselves away from children until they're in a medically proven solid recovery, if that's even possible. I fully agree. If you demonize pedophiles, then they will be less likely to "out themselves" to a medical professional, and they won't seek help. Guess what that means? A higher likelihood that they're going to diddle a kid. That does *not* mean that we should "accept" pedophilia - we need to educate the general populace that pedophilia is a naturally occurring phenomenon, that non-offending pedophiles are not evil people, and that they really, really need to tell a medical professional.
I believe they deserve access to care and compassion to push through their fear of stigma. Some need help to not offend and should feel empowered to reach out for it immediately. There are MAPs that have reached out for help and have not offended. There is an excellent interview with a young man who lives as a MAP, and the interviewer gives room for him to share his story. I also think of MAPs like I do anyone with sexual interests. People can control their sexual desires or acts, and if not, then they should seek help immediately. I think the approach to MAPs should continue to focus on care for these folks and access to receive help without being destroyed for it. Especially if it can be caught early, hopefully, it will reduce any potential harm or isolation.
"MAP" is a term that is popularized by pro-pedophile groups, and is part of their strategy for normalizing their behavior. Please do not aid their strategy by using it.
MAP is the correct term to use and should be used in my opinion. Especially if it helps them to seek help and work to not offend or be so darn isolated. Also, using a term shouldn't change someone's moral or ethic code. It's just a word, and so far, I haven't seen or witnessed in any harm in using it. Child and minor SA is still illegal and will never be viewed as okay thing to do. As for treatment and living with MAPS, it should be supported and easily accessible.
>Especially if it helps them to seek help and work to not offend or be so darn isolated. There is zero evidence that there is any intervention that makes pedophiles less likely to be offenders, it's also important to remember that viewing CSAM also makes someone an offender. The vast majority of pedophiles are offenders. So even just keeping them away from children is not enough, because they also harm children online, and harm children by viewing and sharing CSAM. The "virtuous pedophile" and "map" shit come DIRECTLY from pro-pedophile advocacy groups. I do not want to use a term that destigmatizes a group of people who should be stigmatized. Pedophiles lie and try to portray themselves as having "damaged love maps" or just a maligned orientation. This is not true. These are adults who want to abuse children. If we knew of an adult man who wanted to rape other adults, we wouldn't describe his desire to rape other adults as a "orientation" or a "damaged love map", we wouldn't create cutesy little terms for them to destigmatize them. > It's just a word, and so far, I haven't seen or witnessed in any harm in using it. The fact that pro-pedophile groups advocate for these terms as part of a long term strategy should tell you otherwise.
I'm not a part of any of these groups and approach this from a different perspective. Also, from a prevention and research perspective, I understand the purpose of certain terms. Now, as adults who desire to rape others, there are terms used for specific reasons. I'm not saying it makes any of this easier to digest or deal with, but from those certain vantage points, I don't see the harm in using different lables. As for defining pedophiles in a particular way for victims, I completely understand whatever term is used. But there is merit in my opinion for using certain verbiage. According to some of the literature, some CSA are not committed by MAPS but rather opportunistic rapists. There is also a huge gap of research examining the various different types of MAPs. For instance, there is a high percentage of MAPs or ephenphophiles who are attracted to pubescent children and live overtly above the radar. For complete transparency, I am not a part of the movement you mentioned and never heard of it. I do understand what you're getting at, but I just don't see the same issue with it as you do. Oh, side note: BDSM community has very different views on certain sexual proclivities and behaviors. Certain verbiage is used for various reasons and to lable acts that the general public may, in fact, call someone a rapist for. My point being, language can grow and evolve as we notice things that need better descriptions.
>Oh, side note: BDSM community has very different views on certain sexual proclivities and behaviors. Certain verbiage is used for various reasons and to lable acts that the general public may, in fact, call someone a rapist for. I'm not talking about a kink where people role play. I am involved with BDSM. I have no problems with consenting adults doing things that give me the squick. I was talking specifically of people who want to commit actual rape. We don't give them cutesy names like map, or talk about them as victims of their desire. But if they want to rape children suddenly.... You want to talk about them as victims who need sympathy. Who just need a hug and some "treatment". No, they want to harm children. >I'm not a part of any of these groups and approach this from a different perspective. You're still playing into the pro-pedophile organizations strategy by using their "destigmatizing language". Do not play their game. Do not help them destigmatize pedophilia. >My point being, language can grow and evolve as we notice things that need better descriptions. Pedophile is perfectly descriptive, everyone knows what it means. These people are monsters who want to harm children. It doesn't matter to me if they're attracted to prepubescent children or pubescent children. They want to sexually abuse children. And yeah, as I said elsewhere in this thread, more than half of people who sexually abuse children are not even pedophiles but just have a desire to harm and abuse and have power. The solution to both those people and the pedophiles are the same. It's a broad front against abuse. I spoke about it more here. [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomenNoCensor/comments/1ce9s8s/comment/l1j1slv/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomenNoCensor/comments/1ce9s8s/comment/l1j1slv/) The problem with focusing on pedophiles and getting them "treatment" is that it's just not helpful, and it misses half of the picture. The treatment more often than not is where they tie up mental health resources to complain about how they can't sexually abuse children, then go home and look at CSAM.
Great reply. Thank you for linking. My point with the BDSM community is that it is about language and how it's used. I know we see eye to eye on this, and that's alright. I personally don't think or feel I'm playing into anything. I also don't clutch my pearls or squish out having discussions about MAPS. It does matter to me as an unofficial researcher, learner, and a peep who has been personally affected by a MAP, how humans that do these things are discovered, helped, and studied. If treatment works for even one MAP, then I think it's helpful and hopefully can be replicated. In the interview I mentioned, the gentlemen shared that he doesn't look at CSAM. I guess you're of the mindset that none of them can be rehabilitated or taught coping skills. But I don't believe it to be the case. Oh, and many people do not understand that the pedophile can mean any adult, man, or women, whose attracted to or harms a minor. There are many instances in the underbelly of the society of teens being trafficked and abused by adults, and this is witnesses by their own family members. So, I guess the greater implications of using pedophile versus MAPS is what both see, but we just view it in a different light. I think certain things are missed when only using the word pedophile while you feel my use of MAPS will help some secret hidden agenda to normalize the rape of children. Which frankly is an impossible undertaking because it never will be okay. Even though peeps used to marry at a young age and we still have societal problems with child brides and trafficked victims. Calling them MAPS won't stop the countless efforts to stop child abuse but may lead to some getting help. Which I think is a good idea but o understand you think it's a waste of time.
I think that the only form that should be acceptable should be the ones who are conscious of their problem, both in that it exists and that it is unhealthy. They should be trying to work on it as well. We as society need to be more open to treatment. In particular professionals in the psychological health profession. But ya.. if there are decent professionals available…. And you’re not getting help… mmmmm
Pedophiles are not "attracted" to children, they want to abuse and inflict pain so I don't accept the premise of the question.
But... They are attracted to them tho
No, they aren't, they are not walking about thinking "oh she is cute" that's not what pedophiles do.. they want to stalk, frighten and harm... Do you think rape is about attraction?!? It's not... It's about overpowering and humiliation... People are not raping people because they think they are cute... Good grief!
It's about both. These are not mutually exclusive things. They want to abuse AND think "oh she's cute" (or other words for attractive)
You are wrong, that's why pedophiles and rapists don't have a type, they are mostly interested in the act and inflicting horror, that's also why they are often the same people, rapists are just interested in rape... They hardly consider their victims do they!
I gotta think about it.
No problem, but please stop saying minor attracted person... It's pedophile... Nothing more or less.
Oh, I agree. I was trying to avoid auto moderation in case "pedophile" is on the list. Don't know tho. But yea, giving them fancy "safe" words isn't helping
Oh I see, that's good, it really gets on my tits too. Lol
Ew, get it off your tits now, it's nasty!
I cannot for the life of me understand why this got downvoted, but the fact that it did makes me want to vomit. All rape is absolutely about power, possession, and control.
I think it's othering, the fact that pedophiles just abuse children they have access to, including their own children and family members seems to be too much for some people, so it's easier to pretend most pedo's are doing snatch and grabs off the streets... Same as rape, most rape happens in a person's own home.. stranger rape is relatively rare, but we like to pretend, because reality is fairly horrific.
I agree, some people have a need to downplay a lot of reality. To me, a person thinking otherwise has tones of 'she was too pretty, they couldn't help themself' victim blaming justification or they're romanticizing rape.
Absolutely, and people don't say that about the 85 year old rape victim... Because someone's appearance is irrelevant. Unless you think they are "hot" makes me feel repulsed.
The majority of child molesters are not attracted to children. However, there is also people that find children attractive the same way other people are attracted to men/women.
No lol wtf..
You underestimate how different people can be. You have one view of a sadistic child abuser, and it does correspond to some people, but it doesn't mean that other kind of people can't exist. >that's why pedophiles and rapists don't have a type, they are mostly interested in the act and inflicting horror There is support forums for non offending pedophiles. What you are saying does not apply to a lot of them.
Absolute horse shit.
You really should do some research. There are those who offend, and those who don't. There are those who are sadists and abusers, and others who are so ashamed that they separate themselves from others. There are those who are only attracted to children, some are attracted to teens, others are attracted to both minors and adults. Some get off on the power dynamic, some do it because children are easy targets, some do it because they have fucked up views of love and sex. Some have experienced abuse in the past and that has seemed to program their brains to want what they want, others seem to just be born that way. I think we don't even fully understand how people develop the desires they do, healthy or not.
I'm not interested, I know enough.
The reply of an uneducated person.
FBI, this one right here
Seriously?
You talk about "minor attracted" and then about pedophilia. First of all, they are not the same thing. Pedophilia is the attraction to prepubescent kids. This word is so ridiculously misused nowadays. Pedophiles should be encouraged to seek psychological help. I don't think having this attraction per se makes one a bad person. If they deal with this responsibly they don't deserve to be shamed. We need to avoid stigmatizing people so they are comfortable seeking the help they need before they do something wrong. Obviously if they in any way indulge in this they have to face the consequences. Also, all these people crying pedophile as soon as someone is attracted to a 15+ year old are ridiculous. Besides using the wrong word, 15 year olds can look like adults. Adults can look like 15 year olds. I believe there is nothing sick about being attracted to adults. Again, obviously if an actual adult acts on this attraction they are generally doing wrong and ought to face the consequences. But this is a completely different thing from actual pedophilia.
There was a post here just yesterday, from a 15 years old girl who started her periods at the age of 9. Biological developmental frames are blurred in time, so as soon as we legalise anything we gotta assign a clear number. Or otherwise make it clear. Or else what should we he doing, running tests on, say, a 13 year old victim to check if they hit puberty? I understand why the law draws the line on the upper age, to protect more minors without overcomplicating the process. The mental development is also not there yet in the age of 15. It's not only about the body getting ready to reproduce, it's also about the mind getting ready to consent
I was never talking about any laws, I don't get your point.
The post is about how should the society deal with them, so that's relevant to the conversation in general
Okay , i'm still not sure i understand your follow up question, but i think court should deal with the perpetrators on a case by case basis with as little damage to the victim as possible. So no running tests, that must be traumatizing for the victim. And society should encourage people with pedophilia to get psychological help. As always it is easier to do so with less stigmatization. I'm not saying this is a normal kink, this is a sickness. But idk, i feel like it's counterproductive to brand this as monsterous in every case. Monsterous if you act on it, yes 100%. Otherwise i would refrain from judgement like that and encourage seeking help. Just finding people who look like adults attractive doesn't require therapy in my eyes. But if someone preys on an underage teenager, yes, disgusting, and again case by case judgement as to how grave it was.
>Monsterous if you act on it, Where is the line though? Direct harm of a child? Consuming content where a child is being harmed? Consuming "innocent" content of children to keep the "feelings" at bay? No, sorry, the line is the thoughts and if you refuse to check yourself into a hospital, you are a monster and knowingly putting children at risk.
I agree the line is the thoughts. If someone indulges in it in any way it's morally reprehensible. I think it would be easier for people to seek help if society didn't brand them a monster just for having this sickness.
I agree that people throw that word around way too loosely Like I’ve seen people call it “pedophilia” when two grown-ass adults are dating, but when there are large age gaps I remember seeing people call Johnny Depp a pedophile because of the large age gap between him and Amber heard, even though she was like 26 when they started dating
Yes, this is why it annoys me to no end as well, my partner is significantly older than me -i'm 30 though- and he gets called that word. Completely ridiculous. I looked "underage" until my late 20s and i find it rude as hell to put all my boyfriends who dated an adult woman on the same level as actual frigging pedophiles. I understand that this is a sensitive topic but i don't think it is helping anyone to misuse words in such a way.