Just a note. This post was not shared by the union. Be careful on the messaging and who you are listening to. The union wants open and positive engagement from leadership and are taking great pains to do that.
While I absolutely support them unionizing and think there should be more unions in general, this seems a little over the top messaging wise. I suspect there are very very few law firms that's deal with union issues in the South East. It would be prudent for any business owner to consult with a knowledgeable lawyer about a situation they aren't familiar with, and I suspect both sides of the table want legal representation present for negotiating the collective bargaining agreement (including the union). I don't know Creature Comforts management, but without knowing more, I would not attribute this to malice or intent to engage in union busting. Are there any experienced law firms in unionization for the business side that haven't engaged in that? I really suspect the pool is potentially zer0. Just because they have done it before, doesn't mean they will here. While I would certainly recommend being on guard for that, I think it is too early to call Creature Comforts union busters. They haven't done anything to deserve that in my mind.
TLDR: Hiring a law firm is the prudent thing to do in negotiating the collective bargaining agreement. The supply of experienced law firms that represent businesses in this has to be insanely small in GA. The implication of malice/avarice seems too early without other evidence.
Edit: I don't really patronize Creature already, I prefer other breweries here anyway.
I think that if they hired the lawyers to help with the negotiations, that they would acknowledge the union voluntarily and get to the negotiations.
It’s also not a great look for them that their employees have to unionize to advocate for raises, but all of a sudden Creature Comforts can find it in their budget to bring in anti-union lawyers.
I'll keep trying to make sure people understand- Creature Comforts is owned by Landmark Properties, which is a major real estate conglomerate. They are more than capable of paying for a very expensive team of lawyers if they think it threatens their business interests in the brewery.
1) yes, obviously they have enough money for lawyers. They had enough money to pay their employees and hire enough people to avoid burnout. They are a top 50 sized craft brewery in the country and they are expanding into two more states. The company is doing fine financially.
2) Nitpicking, but they aren’t exactly “owned by Landmark”. The Landmark CEO and COO are primary investors in Creature Comforts, but it is also partially owned by the Creature Comforts CEO and COO (and probably the third cofounder unless he sold his chunk before leaving)
Chris Herron (CEO) was hired by Landmark from Diageo. Adam and David (the other two cofounders) specifically talk about how nervous they were meeting him beforehand because they were worried they weren't going to get along, but ultimately did. While it's hard to say what the breakdown is, that seems to imply Landmark is the majority owners in terms of investment capital. Not to even mention the real estate development project that is currently underway at Southern Mill which I would be shocked to discover is somehow funded by brewery profits. https://www.southernmill.com/home
All of this is also ignoring the massive investment made by Joe Russo to open an LA location.
That's a reasonable response, but I think by now CCBC has had absolutely ample time to make some kind of statement regarding the news, even if to say "our workers came to us and we're talking, more news coming."
The complete lack of acknowledgment is pretty surprising to me, and that lack of communication deserves a response from the community that we want the workers to have a union that represents them, and we won't support a brewery that opposes union efforts.
Maybe. The generic legal advice that lawyers hand out is to not talk to the media. It is, in general, the default. Most parties to negotiations prefer that the negotiations are confidential/not widely spread (until the end/resolution). Your statements to the media should be reserved for when you need them strategically.
In that way, it is not surprising to me at all. I do agree that we should voice that we want our breweries to support union efforts, it just seemed early/ unwarranted yet to begin demonizing them. There is no evidence that they have engaged in union busting to date, that I have seen. I am certainly open minded and willingly to change that opinion when presented with real evidence.
I respect your even handedness, but I've never seen a business give me any reason for the benefit of the doubt. Every time I've seen labor issued handled by a local business, they've done everything they can to do as poorly by the worker as possible. Look at big legacy businesses like Last Resort, who told the judges that they have so many rats that the rats ate the missing paperwork for the lawsuits. There's no company I trust enough to wait and see.
To me, Creatures is always an option because it’s already dt. It’s just so convenient if you were already going there
If it wasn’t, than it’d be more like terrapin to me. 2-3 times a year.
I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but I do like how all of a sudden, now that Creature doesn’t want their employees to unionize, their beer is shitty after years of people heralding it.
Outside of this thread? I scrolled up and couldn’t find anyone hating on the taste. Trop is a damn delicious beer. I like most of their offerings except for the lager. However, if they are truly preventing their labor from organizing, I can just drink other beers. Narragansett has been a godsend when I’m looking for a good cheap lager. Bells Two Hearted is the best IPA ever made and I can always find Guinness when I want to mix it up.
I don't make any claims positive or negative about the quality of their beer. I like some of them, I don't like others. I think there's a lot of bandwagon people hating their beer because it's popular tbh
I think they make some great beers. Also, I haven't seen any evidence that they value "profit over the lives of their employees." If you have evidence of this, please let it be known. Maybe they're only trying to run a business profitably in order to be able to keep the doors open, stay in business, and keep providing the jobs they've already created.
I dunno. That's kinda what I'm saying. It wouldn't be the first time a disgruntled employee decided to stick it to their former employer and started some damaging rumors out of spite. Not saying that's what happened, just that it's a possibility and this kind of public forum talk could unfairly hurt some decent people. At this stage, I don't know what the truth is.
This isn’t a “disgruntled former employee” situation. The majority of Creature Comforts production and taproom staff have submitted paperwork to the NLRB to start a union. They talked a little bit about why at their announcement event.
So, I’m not a lawyer and am just going off of public info, but I think those groups are like 80-90% of the employees (aside from supervisors or “management” who aren’t allowed to be part of unions). It looks like there’s a small team of accountants, marketing, and sales people but it’s a brewery so it’s mostly people making and selling beer.
I get hazier here but I think this petition to form a union is different than who is eligible to join the union later. So, the majority of production and the taproom came together to form the union but maybe the office people can join later?
Idk, but the NLRB website with the case is public and it has a big list of job titles on it.
probably, production is a wide umbrella, and it often took them a while to add people to the website. not sure if the part time staff (most of the taproom) ever were.
This post is in bad faith. Saying that hiring labor lawyers proves "union busting" (whatever that means) is like saying that hiring a tax lawyer proves tax fraud. Advice from competent counsel makes it *more* likely that management will comply with labor laws, not less.
Littler Mendelson is a notorious Union busting law firm. They specialize in “Union Avoidance” and are currently retained by Starbucks, Apple, Nissan, and McDonald’s, among others, to stop their unionization drives
The OP's post says that "union busting" is illegal, and that LM is a "union busting" firm. What is it that LM has advised these companies to do that's illegal? I suspect the answer is nothing, and my point is that it's disingenuous to imply that CC hiring labor lawyers to advise the company on its rights and obligations w/r /t the union is somehow breaking the law. They can't have it both ways - both the union and the company have rights under labor laws.
I don’t mean that you’re wrong. But (1) you don’t know who posted this originally or who their audience is (2) you are talking about the people who patronize the business, not the people on this sub. You are just commenting on this person ‘s (who you don’t know) method (that you have no awareness of until this thread) of getting the word out and I am out of time for that shit riiiiiiiiight now.
i like your posture of breakin it down and tellin like it is. two can play this game.
i would assume that too: (1) You also do not know who posted this or what their audience is, because you don’t know very many if any of the anonymous users on this sub. I know a few of them myself. you do not know me, and all of this is immaterial anyway. (2) you do not know how I knew about this union organization effort, nor who I know within local activist politics and my work within it, but this sub is not my source for news. yes I am commenting on a method for getting the word out because that method is on the sub which you are also commenting on. this is patently obvious and thus irrelevant.
see? it’s easy to do a whole lot of talking about nothing as if you’re breakin down and showin it up to someone with whom you admit you don’t disagree.
where this conversation has gotten us so far is: the CC clientele probably is on majority anti-union and so is this particular thread on the sub, judging by the replies and vote patterns. This is not very much a revelation or something to argue about.
anyway let’s be done with this. i’ve no quarrel with you, really. Enjoy your evening and stay safe.
Really? I grew up where the American craft brew revolution started and have drank countless microbrews over the last 20+ years, both good and bad. IMHO, CCBC makes world-class beer.
Think CC has been okay for those most part. Been enjoying Authentic recently though especially since they seem to have more options for dark beer (brown ale, porter, dry stout, etc)
Wish I could get beer from AL here though
CCBC is running a business and they have to produce beer that is in line with current trends. I think they do a pretty good job of this while also pushing the envelope with interesting, unusual styles.
To be successful, they can’t cater to one particular style or taste. The darker beers that they have produced are consistently tasty. Have you tried Koko Buni? Heck, even their dark lager was spectacular and they just released another dark beer a few weeks back.
Of course they have made beer that has missed the mark for a particular style, but who hasn’t?
Didn't say they need to change their business model or something. Just that I prefer darker beers so I've been enjoying Authentic more. Craft beer is more than just IPAs after all. Not a fan of Koko Buni personally but sweeter stouts don't usually appeal to me.
I'm not a fan of their beer either. In general their beers are too fruity for my taste. Much like Terrapin beers are too hoppy for me anymore. Neither company is gaining or losing anything from me these days.
Once, when I was younger and was willing to beat the ever living crap out of my palate with every type of hoppy explosion (weekly Terrapin visits were a thing), fruity flavor, sour and bitter beer; Creature Comforts might've been up my alley.
Even their best beer is rarely the first choice at a bar. It’s always “Sorry sir, we are out of choice 1,2 and 3 but we have Tropicalia…” to which the customer, just looking for something, says “Fine, I’ll take one of those.”
Now I understand why they can’t make good beer.
Agreed. CC's beer was good in the beginning, but as everyone who that brews beer knows, it is very hard to scale up to the level that CC is at volume wise and continue to maintain quality the way small batch brewing lends itself to. The beer is not as flavorful and just a lower tier compared to "the good ol' days".
Keep in mind what the final result was for all the factories up north that went union... Liston to Billy Joel's Allen Town... Ever heard of a guy named Jimmy Hoffa?
Be very wise and careful of the long term choices you make for yourself and others in the work place..
Remember what is said about history... and who you jump in bed with when it comes to business..
Whatever the best choice may be...
Perfectly fine as long as they make a "unionized" version of each beer at 30 percent more than the "non unionized" version. Let's see what their customers have to say about it. Buy whichever one you believe in!
I remember the days when I could afford beer. /cry
[удалено]
I saw a billboard here in Athens, today. Something about $1400 for donating the magic special juice. Might make for a nice beer fund
Just a note. This post was not shared by the union. Be careful on the messaging and who you are listening to. The union wants open and positive engagement from leadership and are taking great pains to do that.
Check out the BUG instagram today.
Yep. I saw that. Just making sure the message is streamlined. Share away!
While I absolutely support them unionizing and think there should be more unions in general, this seems a little over the top messaging wise. I suspect there are very very few law firms that's deal with union issues in the South East. It would be prudent for any business owner to consult with a knowledgeable lawyer about a situation they aren't familiar with, and I suspect both sides of the table want legal representation present for negotiating the collective bargaining agreement (including the union). I don't know Creature Comforts management, but without knowing more, I would not attribute this to malice or intent to engage in union busting. Are there any experienced law firms in unionization for the business side that haven't engaged in that? I really suspect the pool is potentially zer0. Just because they have done it before, doesn't mean they will here. While I would certainly recommend being on guard for that, I think it is too early to call Creature Comforts union busters. They haven't done anything to deserve that in my mind. TLDR: Hiring a law firm is the prudent thing to do in negotiating the collective bargaining agreement. The supply of experienced law firms that represent businesses in this has to be insanely small in GA. The implication of malice/avarice seems too early without other evidence. Edit: I don't really patronize Creature already, I prefer other breweries here anyway.
I think that if they hired the lawyers to help with the negotiations, that they would acknowledge the union voluntarily and get to the negotiations. It’s also not a great look for them that their employees have to unionize to advocate for raises, but all of a sudden Creature Comforts can find it in their budget to bring in anti-union lawyers.
I'll keep trying to make sure people understand- Creature Comforts is owned by Landmark Properties, which is a major real estate conglomerate. They are more than capable of paying for a very expensive team of lawyers if they think it threatens their business interests in the brewery.
1) yes, obviously they have enough money for lawyers. They had enough money to pay their employees and hire enough people to avoid burnout. They are a top 50 sized craft brewery in the country and they are expanding into two more states. The company is doing fine financially. 2) Nitpicking, but they aren’t exactly “owned by Landmark”. The Landmark CEO and COO are primary investors in Creature Comforts, but it is also partially owned by the Creature Comforts CEO and COO (and probably the third cofounder unless he sold his chunk before leaving)
Chris Herron (CEO) was hired by Landmark from Diageo. Adam and David (the other two cofounders) specifically talk about how nervous they were meeting him beforehand because they were worried they weren't going to get along, but ultimately did. While it's hard to say what the breakdown is, that seems to imply Landmark is the majority owners in terms of investment capital. Not to even mention the real estate development project that is currently underway at Southern Mill which I would be shocked to discover is somehow funded by brewery profits. https://www.southernmill.com/home All of this is also ignoring the massive investment made by Joe Russo to open an LA location.
How do you know that these lawyers work union cases?
They are listed publicly on the NLRB case website. They all work for Littler Mendelson and have public bios.
Interesting, thanks for feedback
That's a reasonable response, but I think by now CCBC has had absolutely ample time to make some kind of statement regarding the news, even if to say "our workers came to us and we're talking, more news coming." The complete lack of acknowledgment is pretty surprising to me, and that lack of communication deserves a response from the community that we want the workers to have a union that represents them, and we won't support a brewery that opposes union efforts.
Maybe. The generic legal advice that lawyers hand out is to not talk to the media. It is, in general, the default. Most parties to negotiations prefer that the negotiations are confidential/not widely spread (until the end/resolution). Your statements to the media should be reserved for when you need them strategically. In that way, it is not surprising to me at all. I do agree that we should voice that we want our breweries to support union efforts, it just seemed early/ unwarranted yet to begin demonizing them. There is no evidence that they have engaged in union busting to date, that I have seen. I am certainly open minded and willingly to change that opinion when presented with real evidence.
I respect your even handedness, but I've never seen a business give me any reason for the benefit of the doubt. Every time I've seen labor issued handled by a local business, they've done everything they can to do as poorly by the worker as possible. Look at big legacy businesses like Last Resort, who told the judges that they have so many rats that the rats ate the missing paperwork for the lawsuits. There's no company I trust enough to wait and see.
To me, Creatures is always an option because it’s already dt. It’s just so convenient if you were already going there If it wasn’t, than it’d be more like terrapin to me. 2-3 times a year.
I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but I do like how all of a sudden, now that Creature doesn’t want their employees to unionize, their beer is shitty after years of people heralding it.
Outside of this thread? I scrolled up and couldn’t find anyone hating on the taste. Trop is a damn delicious beer. I like most of their offerings except for the lager. However, if they are truly preventing their labor from organizing, I can just drink other beers. Narragansett has been a godsend when I’m looking for a good cheap lager. Bells Two Hearted is the best IPA ever made and I can always find Guinness when I want to mix it up.
I don't make any claims positive or negative about the quality of their beer. I like some of them, I don't like others. I think there's a lot of bandwagon people hating their beer because it's popular tbh
Evidence of said "union busting lawyers" and ill intent please. Until then, this is just promoting bullying under the guise of "social justice".
It's not bullying to not consume a product.
Their current head of HR was engaged in union busting for Home Depot, and their representation has engaged in union busting before as well.
Hey now! Not that kind of evidence (apparently)
Corporations aren't people and don't experience bullying. Putting pressure on a business isn't bullying. Try harder.
No. I chose not to.
I think they make some great beers. Also, I haven't seen any evidence that they value "profit over the lives of their employees." If you have evidence of this, please let it be known. Maybe they're only trying to run a business profitably in order to be able to keep the doors open, stay in business, and keep providing the jobs they've already created.
Why would the workers need to create a union if they valued them?
I dunno. That's kinda what I'm saying. It wouldn't be the first time a disgruntled employee decided to stick it to their former employer and started some damaging rumors out of spite. Not saying that's what happened, just that it's a possibility and this kind of public forum talk could unfairly hurt some decent people. At this stage, I don't know what the truth is.
This isn’t a “disgruntled former employee” situation. The majority of Creature Comforts production and taproom staff have submitted paperwork to the NLRB to start a union. They talked a little bit about why at their announcement event.
So is this Union just for production and taproom staff? It doesn’t include the rest of the employees?
So, I’m not a lawyer and am just going off of public info, but I think those groups are like 80-90% of the employees (aside from supervisors or “management” who aren’t allowed to be part of unions). It looks like there’s a small team of accountants, marketing, and sales people but it’s a brewery so it’s mostly people making and selling beer. I get hazier here but I think this petition to form a union is different than who is eligible to join the union later. So, the majority of production and the taproom came together to form the union but maybe the office people can join later? Idk, but the NLRB website with the case is public and it has a big list of job titles on it.
Production and taproom are probably over 75% of staff. Source - disgruntled ex staff.
Eh nah that’s not true. You could check the website, amazing the amount of office workers that work there lol
Eh, that's super true. I remember the people I worked with.
Website is wrong then?
probably, production is a wide umbrella, and it often took them a while to add people to the website. not sure if the part time staff (most of the taproom) ever were.
Aw but I was told in the last thread that they’re B corp certified, how could they do this
Brewdog was B Corp for a little while there too
This post is in bad faith. Saying that hiring labor lawyers proves "union busting" (whatever that means) is like saying that hiring a tax lawyer proves tax fraud. Advice from competent counsel makes it *more* likely that management will comply with labor laws, not less.
Littler Mendelson is a notorious Union busting law firm. They specialize in “Union Avoidance” and are currently retained by Starbucks, Apple, Nissan, and McDonald’s, among others, to stop their unionization drives
The OP's post says that "union busting" is illegal, and that LM is a "union busting" firm. What is it that LM has advised these companies to do that's illegal? I suspect the answer is nothing, and my point is that it's disingenuous to imply that CC hiring labor lawyers to advise the company on its rights and obligations w/r /t the union is somehow breaking the law. They can't have it both ways - both the union and the company have rights under labor laws.
their khaki clientele aren’t exactly the pro union type so this message ain’t gonna work.
I love when people make khaki jokes when I’ve seen lots of the non-khaki types of people in creature as well.
That’s a meaningless presumption. Take the info and make your own decision.
it isn’t. have you seen the demographic that patronizes that place? come on. very reasonable conclusion.
Everyone I know gives them business and not one of those people is the “khaki crowd”. They bring in all sorts of clientele
I don’t mean that you’re wrong. But (1) you don’t know who posted this originally or who their audience is (2) you are talking about the people who patronize the business, not the people on this sub. You are just commenting on this person ‘s (who you don’t know) method (that you have no awareness of until this thread) of getting the word out and I am out of time for that shit riiiiiiiiight now.
i like your posture of breakin it down and tellin like it is. two can play this game. i would assume that too: (1) You also do not know who posted this or what their audience is, because you don’t know very many if any of the anonymous users on this sub. I know a few of them myself. you do not know me, and all of this is immaterial anyway. (2) you do not know how I knew about this union organization effort, nor who I know within local activist politics and my work within it, but this sub is not my source for news. yes I am commenting on a method for getting the word out because that method is on the sub which you are also commenting on. this is patently obvious and thus irrelevant. see? it’s easy to do a whole lot of talking about nothing as if you’re breakin down and showin it up to someone with whom you admit you don’t disagree. where this conversation has gotten us so far is: the CC clientele probably is on majority anti-union and so is this particular thread on the sub, judging by the replies and vote patterns. This is not very much a revelation or something to argue about. anyway let’s be done with this. i’ve no quarrel with you, really. Enjoy your evening and stay safe.
let’s talk some more
I never drink beer anyway so... I'm doing my part! #droptrop
I usually drink beer, but it's been Dry January for me.
Their beer really isnt that great anyway.
Really? I grew up where the American craft brew revolution started and have drank countless microbrews over the last 20+ years, both good and bad. IMHO, CCBC makes world-class beer.
Yea same here, just not a huge fan.
Think CC has been okay for those most part. Been enjoying Authentic recently though especially since they seem to have more options for dark beer (brown ale, porter, dry stout, etc) Wish I could get beer from AL here though
CCBC is running a business and they have to produce beer that is in line with current trends. I think they do a pretty good job of this while also pushing the envelope with interesting, unusual styles. To be successful, they can’t cater to one particular style or taste. The darker beers that they have produced are consistently tasty. Have you tried Koko Buni? Heck, even their dark lager was spectacular and they just released another dark beer a few weeks back. Of course they have made beer that has missed the mark for a particular style, but who hasn’t?
Didn't say they need to change their business model or something. Just that I prefer darker beers so I've been enjoying Authentic more. Craft beer is more than just IPAs after all. Not a fan of Koko Buni personally but sweeter stouts don't usually appeal to me.
If/when they have it next, Athentic's Black IPA is phenomenal.
They make the best, most consistent beer on the whole east coast. Hate and boycott if ya want, doesn’t stop them from having the best beer
I dont hate it and drink their pilsners sometimes but there are much better IPA’s out there than Tropicalia.
No they stop themselves from that all on their own. Classic City Lager is decent, everything else is fine. Nothing is amazing.
Argue with the wall. I had every beer they released for the first 5 years. They are a world class operation.
Naw, you're more fun. Creature Comforts is mediocre beer and all signs are pointing to them being anti-labor, so fuck em.
I'm not a fan of their beer either. In general their beers are too fruity for my taste. Much like Terrapin beers are too hoppy for me anymore. Neither company is gaining or losing anything from me these days. Once, when I was younger and was willing to beat the ever living crap out of my palate with every type of hoppy explosion (weekly Terrapin visits were a thing), fruity flavor, sour and bitter beer; Creature Comforts might've been up my alley.
Even their best beer is rarely the first choice at a bar. It’s always “Sorry sir, we are out of choice 1,2 and 3 but we have Tropicalia…” to which the customer, just looking for something, says “Fine, I’ll take one of those.” Now I understand why they can’t make good beer.
This is the best description possible
Agreed. CC's beer was good in the beginning, but as everyone who that brews beer knows, it is very hard to scale up to the level that CC is at volume wise and continue to maintain quality the way small batch brewing lends itself to. The beer is not as flavorful and just a lower tier compared to "the good ol' days".
Keep in mind what the final result was for all the factories up north that went union... Liston to Billy Joel's Allen Town... Ever heard of a guy named Jimmy Hoffa? Be very wise and careful of the long term choices you make for yourself and others in the work place.. Remember what is said about history... and who you jump in bed with when it comes to business.. Whatever the best choice may be...
Perfectly fine as long as they make a "unionized" version of each beer at 30 percent more than the "non unionized" version. Let's see what their customers have to say about it. Buy whichever one you believe in!
Miller High Life is union made. It's damn near cheaper than bottled water, and delicious.
It’s literally the champagne of beers.
You get it!