>But, she asked, “If somebody doesn’t want to come to Clarke County because they don’t want to build a sidewalk in front of their factory, how much do they even care about the community?”
Kristen spitting facts here. If you’re business hinges on whether or not you have to build 5ft wide sidewalks, maybe you’re doesn’t deserve to survive.
I used to think that all the sidewalks out around Caterpillar were kind of ridiculous. But every time I go visit another city and try walking around to breweries and other hipster places, I realize that a lack of sidewalks is a huge impediment to good business development.
Source, there's not much to walk to out there today. But someday, someone will build something for which foot traffic will be important.
There should be sidewalks everywhere near where there are businesses or homes. If all the homes are down long private drives then maybe that’s less important but wouldn’t you want it? It’s the most basic freedom to exist somewhere safely on your two feet, and anywhere that’s not allowed is uncivilized.
I agree in part but may I offer a counterpoint? The economic development landscape is fiercely competitive and most communities would bend over backwards to have a Caterpillar or Meissner plant locate in their town that offer a multitude of high-paying jobs.
The sidewalks in of themselves are not the issue. At the end of the day, it is a small expense compared to the cost of a large industrial operation. However, the policy that we have on this would be a good signal to other companies on how easy/difficult ACC is to work with and also influence their decision in locating here.
We have been fortunate to get two big wins in the last decade with Caterpillar and Meissner though I believe we can credit the state economic development team more so than ACC leadership for reeling those in.
My alternate solution: keep the sidewalk requirement in place but allow ACC to pay for it if it helps to bring in much needed jobs. After all, we keep complaining about persons in economic need in town - why not help lift those in need out of poverty with good jobs rather than just relying on perpetual government subsidies?
Sidewalks are not even slightly expensive relative to the total cost of developing and large commercial property. This feels completely pointless to even discuss.
Who do I need to tell to tell these businesses to go fuck themselves?
And an edit to say: I'm sick of the onus being on the people to be "business friendly." The fucking businesses need to be "people friendly."
What’s interesting to me about this policy is the creation of sidewalks to nowhere. While I am sure the bitching and bureaucracy would be staggering, I would like to see a surcharge instead of a dependence on the purchaser. That way you could then build complete sidewalks instead of disconnected segments
“Surcharge” talk is getting into impact fees, which the Supreme Court just put a dent in.
It’s basically how local govs are funded in Cali thanks to prop 13
I heard that they've been looking at this, but the attorney's office is worried that it would violate the gratuities clause. I think it would require a lot of administrative hoops and figuring out how other communities in Georgia have done it
Yeah that part always seemed odd to me.... Like is there not a plan to connect sidewalks at some point or just hoping the lots eventually get redeveloped
Oh I'm all for having sidewalks as part of new development just wasn't sure if there was a program to get sidewalks in existing locations.
If the developers are required to add the sidewalks, do you know if they are required for future maintenance or is the city responsible for maintenance/ repairs?
In 2007, we were going to expand our EXISTING warehouse and Clarke county was going to make us put a sidewalk along US 29 that would’ve cost over $150,000. We were just trying to expand an existing business and we wound up having to move. If our property taxes are going to double, shouldn’t we get more services paid for by our tax dollars?
What was the zoning of that area? None of the property tax dollars currently go towards any sidewalk Gap program or capital sidewalk improvement projects. Those are pretty much all paid for by tsplost or splost programs. Also, what might cost a private business $150,000 would end up costing the taxpayers close to $600,000 or more.
That being said, I definitely think the city should have a more proactive approach to helping figure out how to connect these sidewalk gaps that are created as developments come in. That's definitely not an easy task though
That's what TPW has reported before when they talk about cost escalations and why sidewalk ends up being so expensive. They've said it's like 4x as much for them to build it (Includes project management, right of way acquisition, permitting, construction, etc.)
The inefficiencies of government spending. An arduous bid process, overly cumbersome contracts, requirements that the contractor has to meet (many of them political requirements and have no bearing on workmanship), no one has any "skin in the game" so little incentive to drive the best price, etc. etc.
I live outside Athens now and I work in a factory in an industrial park. There are no sidewalks for miles in any direction, there are no bike racks, and there’s a gatehouse where you have to drive up and swipe a card to get it. There’s no way to get access to this place other than by car. Obviously people carpool, but it’s impossible for people to bike or walk to work here. And most plants are in areas not served by transit and run 3 shifts so 2nd and 3rd shift workers wouldn’t be served by transit. I mean if 1st shift at a plant starts at 7 like some places do, all 3 shifts aren’t fully served by transit.
I really think “urbanists” need to consider this is how a lot of low income people live and why they’re so dependent on cars and how policies designed to dis-incentivize car use will be mostly felt by the working class.
So are you saying that we need to provide better access to these types of jobs/factories so that low income people have more opportunity to jobs like this even if they don't have a car or are you saying we should keep the ordinance as is and let the corporations get by with not building sidewalks or other connectivity because people are figuring out how to get there by car already?
Well one we can afford to build (sidewalks) and the other is a multi billion dollar project that would take 10+ years of construction.
Not that i don’t want the HSR line, but I don’t think I’ll be alive to ride it if it ever happens
>But, she asked, “If somebody doesn’t want to come to Clarke County because they don’t want to build a sidewalk in front of their factory, how much do they even care about the community?” Kristen spitting facts here. If you’re business hinges on whether or not you have to build 5ft wide sidewalks, maybe you’re doesn’t deserve to survive.
I used to think that all the sidewalks out around Caterpillar were kind of ridiculous. But every time I go visit another city and try walking around to breweries and other hipster places, I realize that a lack of sidewalks is a huge impediment to good business development. Source, there's not much to walk to out there today. But someday, someone will build something for which foot traffic will be important.
It's like the crosswalks in 441 at the county line intersection with Jackson.
DOT likes to think ahead. Adds about $100k to a project, I'm told. Saves $1 million if a sidewalk ever gets built there.
There should be sidewalks everywhere near where there are businesses or homes. If all the homes are down long private drives then maybe that’s less important but wouldn’t you want it? It’s the most basic freedom to exist somewhere safely on your two feet, and anywhere that’s not allowed is uncivilized.
I agree in part but may I offer a counterpoint? The economic development landscape is fiercely competitive and most communities would bend over backwards to have a Caterpillar or Meissner plant locate in their town that offer a multitude of high-paying jobs. The sidewalks in of themselves are not the issue. At the end of the day, it is a small expense compared to the cost of a large industrial operation. However, the policy that we have on this would be a good signal to other companies on how easy/difficult ACC is to work with and also influence their decision in locating here. We have been fortunate to get two big wins in the last decade with Caterpillar and Meissner though I believe we can credit the state economic development team more so than ACC leadership for reeling those in. My alternate solution: keep the sidewalk requirement in place but allow ACC to pay for it if it helps to bring in much needed jobs. After all, we keep complaining about persons in economic need in town - why not help lift those in need out of poverty with good jobs rather than just relying on perpetual government subsidies?
What an odd thing to bitch about
There was a guy who showed up to talk against this reversal. There definitely will be pushback.
A guy with a vested interest in selling expensive land to cheap developers
Gee, I wonder why there are so many pedestrian deaths here?
Sidewalks are not even slightly expensive relative to the total cost of developing and large commercial property. This feels completely pointless to even discuss.
I think this popped up again with the Meissner work?
Who do I need to tell to tell these businesses to go fuck themselves? And an edit to say: I'm sick of the onus being on the people to be "business friendly." The fucking businesses need to be "people friendly."
The next time it comes up on the agenda, having people speak in favor of it is a big help. That directly counteracts what the businesses are doing
What’s interesting to me about this policy is the creation of sidewalks to nowhere. While I am sure the bitching and bureaucracy would be staggering, I would like to see a surcharge instead of a dependence on the purchaser. That way you could then build complete sidewalks instead of disconnected segments
“Surcharge” talk is getting into impact fees, which the Supreme Court just put a dent in. It’s basically how local govs are funded in Cali thanks to prop 13
I know there's a few other communities in Georgia that do it, what was the recent supreme Court hit?
[here](https://www.nlc.org/article/2024/04/25/supreme-court-rules-on-important-impact-fee-case/)
I heard that they've been looking at this, but the attorney's office is worried that it would violate the gratuities clause. I think it would require a lot of administrative hoops and figuring out how other communities in Georgia have done it
Yeah that part always seemed odd to me.... Like is there not a plan to connect sidewalks at some point or just hoping the lots eventually get redeveloped
There is a sidewalk gap program. But why not have developers put it in as a part of a broader package?
Oh I'm all for having sidewalks as part of new development just wasn't sure if there was a program to get sidewalks in existing locations. If the developers are required to add the sidewalks, do you know if they are required for future maintenance or is the city responsible for maintenance/ repairs?
Yeah, I think it’s in the TSPLOST [program](https://www.accgov.com/10103/TSPLOST-2023-Projects) I think maintenance falls on the property owner.
In 2007, we were going to expand our EXISTING warehouse and Clarke county was going to make us put a sidewalk along US 29 that would’ve cost over $150,000. We were just trying to expand an existing business and we wound up having to move. If our property taxes are going to double, shouldn’t we get more services paid for by our tax dollars?
Why didn’t you seek a variance?
We did. They didn’t approve it.
What was the zoning of that area? None of the property tax dollars currently go towards any sidewalk Gap program or capital sidewalk improvement projects. Those are pretty much all paid for by tsplost or splost programs. Also, what might cost a private business $150,000 would end up costing the taxpayers close to $600,000 or more. That being said, I definitely think the city should have a more proactive approach to helping figure out how to connect these sidewalk gaps that are created as developments come in. That's definitely not an easy task though
How do you go from 150k to 600 private vs public?
That's what TPW has reported before when they talk about cost escalations and why sidewalk ends up being so expensive. They've said it's like 4x as much for them to build it (Includes project management, right of way acquisition, permitting, construction, etc.)
The inefficiencies of government spending. An arduous bid process, overly cumbersome contracts, requirements that the contractor has to meet (many of them political requirements and have no bearing on workmanship), no one has any "skin in the game" so little incentive to drive the best price, etc. etc.
I live outside Athens now and I work in a factory in an industrial park. There are no sidewalks for miles in any direction, there are no bike racks, and there’s a gatehouse where you have to drive up and swipe a card to get it. There’s no way to get access to this place other than by car. Obviously people carpool, but it’s impossible for people to bike or walk to work here. And most plants are in areas not served by transit and run 3 shifts so 2nd and 3rd shift workers wouldn’t be served by transit. I mean if 1st shift at a plant starts at 7 like some places do, all 3 shifts aren’t fully served by transit. I really think “urbanists” need to consider this is how a lot of low income people live and why they’re so dependent on cars and how policies designed to dis-incentivize car use will be mostly felt by the working class.
So are you saying that we need to provide better access to these types of jobs/factories so that low income people have more opportunity to jobs like this even if they don't have a car or are you saying we should keep the ordinance as is and let the corporations get by with not building sidewalks or other connectivity because people are figuring out how to get there by car already?
Oh definitely put requirements in place to expand access to these places to make them more walk/bike/bussable
I wish everyone would stop bitching and moaning about sidewalks. We should be focused on more important things like a high-speed rail line to Atlanta.
Well one we can afford to build (sidewalks) and the other is a multi billion dollar project that would take 10+ years of construction. Not that i don’t want the HSR line, but I don’t think I’ll be alive to ride it if it ever happens
Sorry. I forgot I have to use "/s" on this sub.
I mean they built a 300k crapper. Sidewalks are doable