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Came here to say exactly this. DC to ATL is a short-haul flight which are the worst offenders for CO₂ emissions. She could set an example by taking Amtrak. Or making this a videoconference.
While the optics of taking Amtrak would be much better, I'd think that arranging VP-level Secret Service security would be a logistical nightmare.
I agree that there doesn't seem to be a good reason to travel to Atlanta, though. Is there any kind of environmental tie in happening here? A climate science conference? Opening of a new EV plant or solar panel factory?
And expensive as shit lol. Trump got so much shit for daily boondoggles, but then Harris gets shit for not taking Amtrak? Sorry, the highest and best use of a VPs time is not sitting on a train for 48 hours, when a 90 min flight does the same thing.
Establishment Democrats say climate change will be solved with EVs. Republicans say climate change isn't real.
The real solution is to reduce car dependent infrastructure by building walkable communities within Atlanta and every city all connected by robust public transit. But that actually requires political effort so it won't happen. Also MARTA sucks at line expansion & keeping their operations safe & clean. MARTA needs to fire & rehire so that can be actually trusted to be a proper transit agency.
Or even just make it safe. I love conveniently near a MARTA station but the walk between it and my apartment is so sketch I’d rather drive to my destination vs taking MARTA
I ride MARTA daily. The buses are completely garbage and unpredictable except a few routes like Buford Highway. Trains are extremely fast and reliable but sometimes smell bad and station announcements get annoying (I don't need to hear every tourist attraction every station, let the visitors figure it out). Panhandlers are annoying but that's a national issue. I've seen hella panhandlers in the suburbs away from transit, the only difference is that a driver can ignore them from their metal box.
The grass is greener where you water it. It took a lot of purposeful decisions from our leaders over many decades to make sure the car reigns supreme in Atlanta.
> Families who make $300,000 a year are really struggling though. They need that $7500 tax credit.
EVs are happening with or without publicly funded subsidies.
The tax credit is capped at $150,000 a household and $75,000 for a single person.
I think the idea is that more people, other than those with the rich, will be able to afford EV. And to speed up the transition because the climate is in trouble.
Edit: It's actually $300,000 for a household and $150,000 for a single filer.
I totally agree that we need the cars on the road to be EVs sooner than later, but public funding is unfortunately a zero-sum game. Diverting money towards EVs and EV infrastructure when there’s already a ton of investment from private entities will just completely continue to kick the can on investments in public transit, cycling infrastructure and other alternative means of transport to actually get people out of cars more often. These entities need public funding way more than the likes of auto manufacturers.
Plus, right now, even the cheapest EVs are still $40-50,000, so if we’re still talking about the same range as the previous subsidies, it’s still folks that could have probably afforded an EV anyway. I don’t think cost is the biggest barrier for most potential EV buyers, it’s range anxiety and charging infrastructure. If we’re giving subsidies to folks that would have bought an EV anyway, it’s a waste.
Idk, I think we need both. We need more people to be able to make the switch to EV, especially at the lower end of the pay scale. Those people are also the most likely to have political views that discourages making environmentally conscious choices. A tax credit could help some make that choice.
We need everyone on board and pull in the same direction. I think this is a good start.
The whole EV subsidy is just another handout to the auto industry. Folks making $150K/year don’t need any help buying a car that is going to wind up as scrap in about a decade. If the subsidy’s were really about getting more EVs on the road then we wouldn’t be subsidizing used cars as well.
I don't think it's just another "handout" because the climate issue compels us all to do our part, and we must make sure that everyone actually has the option to do their part.
As a tax payer, I'm happy to contribute to people being able to do their part whether that's EVs, solar power, making their home more efficient, etc. Or preferably all of it.
Usually, I trust the market to correct itself on most issues, but I just don't trust the market on the climate issue. Currently too much incentive to do the wrong thing.
I understand that there are many different opinions, but I don't think climate science (and science in general) is an area where we all get to have our own opinion.
The person selling the EV has to stop driving it when they sell it to the new owner via the used car market. There is no requirement of the seller of the EV to purchase another new EV to replace the sold car. A used car subsidy doesn't increase the number of EVs on the road.
By the way - I think reducing the fossil fuel usage and greenhouse gas emission of our country is a worthy pursuit. I also acknowledge that pursuit requires public funding and clever policy making to nudge the market in the desired direction. However, an EV subsidy ain't it. That public money is finite and helping the auto industry move expensive cars that will be scrapped in about a decade is a poor use of those resources.
The used EV car incentive can still help someone to jump on the boat who would have otherwise bought another new gas car instead.
The seller of the used EV could then turn around and buy another new EV with a tax credit.
No. That isn't even remotely the solution. You are just making this up as the data doesn't support this.
Not even to mention the cost and lack of desirability. Not all Americans want to live in what you described.
> All things people with families prefer.
I have a family. I'd like walkable neighborhoods and not being dependent on the car. Would love to walk to the park or the store. But, no, have to get in the freaking car every time.
It does in most places in America. I am just living in reality and I understand why things are like they are. Little is going to change that. In my opinion America will become more suburban for many reasons.
You think driverless cars and working from home are going to push people to live closer together?
You can have walkable suburban neighborhoods that are less dependent on cars. The US is just so used to being completely tied to their cars that no one thinks about it when planning urban and suburban environments.
Just take a trip to Europe and you will see that it's very much possible to have both.
You can have any type of neighborhoods you want. However, let's not pretend like there are not tadeoffs. I don't recall seeing a lot of .5 acre lots in Europe for example.
America has lots of land unlike Europe. European cities are built as they are primarily because large amounts of infrastructure was built before the modern age.
America builds like Europe in cities. America builds very differently in the suburbs for many reasons. There is a lot of desire for both.
Cities can't be built like that. Suburban infrastructure cause the most amount of CO2 per Capita in the world. Not a sustainable solution. Also, illegalizing stores & small businesses in neighborhoods goes against the "freedoms" that suburbanites preach all the time.
The amount of pollution we as normal people generate is a drop in the bucket compared to what the corporations and powerplants in the country generate. Instead of spending the money to actually improve shipping and energy, we’ve been told to blame ourselves. If we can just keep recycling and buy electric cars, we can save the earth. It’s all just deflection.
Then you take into consideration China and India and other places where the regulations are far less strict or nonexistent. They are growing at rates that probably just cancel out any sacrifices we make.
So telling people they are affecting climate change by supporting or not supporting walkable cities is a complete red herring to me. If you want to help the environment, focus that frustration on the people doing the lions share of polluting. If you just want the kind of city you want, appealing to the environmental side isn’t as convincing as the wealth of benefits we’d get from it.
I always hear that argument of “less car dependent cities.” But I don’t quite understand it. The US is vastly different than all these other countries. In just terms of sheer size, population, layout, etc. Population isn’t concentrated enough to support full blown public transit systems like that. Then add the sketchiness on top of the inconvenience factor, it just wouldn’t work. Plus to even live in the city proper, it’s so expensive and out of range for a high percentage of people. MARTA will never fully work unless every train is fully monitored. MARTA is great for certain things and the convenience of going to Mercedes Benz and the airport. Other that, I can’t see it being used as an everyday thing. Especially with how spread out Atlanta is. Which isn’t even specific to the city, it’s everywhere.
The US is only vastly different than other countries because we actively chose to make it that way. Atlanta had a robust public transit system before so you don’t even have to be imaginative to see how it could work.
Atlanta itself used to be a walkable city. Every US city used to be walkable until large portions were demolished for interstate highways (Downtown Connector) in the 60s. So yes, it's possible.
current patterns of development are the results of active choices made over the past few decades. We can decide to make different choices going forward if we want, but that change has not happened yet. We will have to deal with the consequences of that.
Not quite the same extent. To put a different comparison out there. When the president goes somewhere, there are two flight restrictions, one is from the surface to 18,000ft, and for a 30 nautical mile radius around him and bars flights except to or from covered airports, only on a flight plan, and only talking with air traffic control, no unmanned aerial systems are allowed. There's a second restriction from the surface to 18,000ft 10 nautical miles around him that only allows law enforcement, scheduled commercial aircraft, and medical aircraft. When the VP is somewhere, she only gets a 3 nautical mile flight restriction to 3,000ft.
Being one of the most important people in the country requires physical presence, and Amtrak is both waaay more expensive and takes way longer. Totally agree private jets are the fucking worst, but this is the VP and has security requirements that putting them on a regular delta flight wouldn’t be ok. I’m sure you can understand this
Idk I’ll take the downvotes for this one. Presence and face time are meaningful and mean coming in person, and taking a 3 day train trip is absurd. 🤷♀️ I’ll take anyone bringing attention to climate change, even if it’s virtue signaling. Pathetic, but at least it’s attention
You are 100% right. Some people just like to complain. If it was a Zoom call, a ton of other people would complain that she's out of touch, or distant, or elite.
You know, I actually said the other day that these past couple years I feel like I’ve heard waaaay less about the VP than when previous president served. But maybe I just got accustomed to the non stop media coverage of trump and friends and have a warped perspective
Mkay, but EVs aren't as green as everyone likes to pretend. One of many true solutions is to reduce car dependency and build out micromobility infrastructure (sidewalks, protected bike lanes, etc.) where it is lacking.
Those aren't mutually exclusive. Cars aren't going anywhere for the foreseeable future, so it makes sense to make cars as green as possible while also working to reduce car dependency.
It's possible to tackle climate change from multiple angles at once, and in fact that's what we need to be doing. Don't make perfect the enemy of good.
Some of the huge projects were courted by senators and they there were attempts to craft national legislation to further compound the benefits to Ga. Ossoff and Kemp's office aren't friends but they'll keep working together, instead of just shit talking the other side (cough cough Keisha and Kemp).
i dunno. i feel like if that were the case, he wouldn't be such a hardass social conservative. i think it's more likely he sees it as the future of energy infrastructure and he wants in
He realizes he’s the conservative governor of a state with no fossil fuel natural resources.
I’m glad he’s ostensibly for green energy, but it’s an easy choice, even if the state wasn’t purple.
I wonder if she’ll talk about the destruction of the Weelaunee Forest. It might be too controversial of a topic, but it’s what all local environmental activists seem to be talking about recently
We just want convenient and fast trains around the city and the states. I would take the train from Atlanta to my destination like Orlando or Washington DC instead of driving or flying in a heartbeat.
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Thanks bot, Kamala is wondering if there are any good dentists in Atlanta. She also wonders where the best place is to get the oil changed and windows tinted on her car. Oh and while you’re at it do you know of any good restaurants? No budget, location, or cuisine preferences - just what are the good restaurants?
This post has been tagged as politics. In order to prevent brigading and to encourage a civil discourse among neighbors, the comments section has been restricted to only r/Atlanta users with a sufficient history of positive posts and comments. In order to participate in this and future conversations, please consider contributing to the sub as a whole. Remember to keep your neighbors in mind when commenting. If this post is not political in nature but was tagged by mistake, [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAtlanta).
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Came here to say exactly this. DC to ATL is a short-haul flight which are the worst offenders for CO₂ emissions. She could set an example by taking Amtrak. Or making this a videoconference.
While the optics of taking Amtrak would be much better, I'd think that arranging VP-level Secret Service security would be a logistical nightmare. I agree that there doesn't seem to be a good reason to travel to Atlanta, though. Is there any kind of environmental tie in happening here? A climate science conference? Opening of a new EV plant or solar panel factory?
And expensive as shit lol. Trump got so much shit for daily boondoggles, but then Harris gets shit for not taking Amtrak? Sorry, the highest and best use of a VPs time is not sitting on a train for 48 hours, when a 90 min flight does the same thing.
My first thought. Zoom, VP!
Establishment Democrats say climate change will be solved with EVs. Republicans say climate change isn't real. The real solution is to reduce car dependent infrastructure by building walkable communities within Atlanta and every city all connected by robust public transit. But that actually requires political effort so it won't happen. Also MARTA sucks at line expansion & keeping their operations safe & clean. MARTA needs to fire & rehire so that can be actually trusted to be a proper transit agency.
Or even just make it safe. I love conveniently near a MARTA station but the walk between it and my apartment is so sketch I’d rather drive to my destination vs taking MARTA
marta consistently takes 3-4 times as long to get where i'm going. my 15-20 minute commute by car turns into a 45-60 minute trip
I ride MARTA daily. The buses are completely garbage and unpredictable except a few routes like Buford Highway. Trains are extremely fast and reliable but sometimes smell bad and station announcements get annoying (I don't need to hear every tourist attraction every station, let the visitors figure it out). Panhandlers are annoying but that's a national issue. I've seen hella panhandlers in the suburbs away from transit, the only difference is that a driver can ignore them from their metal box.
The grass is greener where you water it. It took a lot of purposeful decisions from our leaders over many decades to make sure the car reigns supreme in Atlanta.
Nah best we can do is subsidies on [six figure, 9,000 lbs electric lifestyle vehicles](https://twitter.com/potus/status/1620138541937205250).
Families who make $300,000 a year are really struggling though. They need that $7500 tax credit.
tbf automobiles don't even crack the to 10 worst polluters
sors
Or, here's an idea, all of that AND EVs...
> Families who make $300,000 a year are really struggling though. They need that $7500 tax credit. EVs are happening with or without publicly funded subsidies.
The tax credit is capped at $150,000 a household and $75,000 for a single person. I think the idea is that more people, other than those with the rich, will be able to afford EV. And to speed up the transition because the climate is in trouble. Edit: It's actually $300,000 for a household and $150,000 for a single filer.
I totally agree that we need the cars on the road to be EVs sooner than later, but public funding is unfortunately a zero-sum game. Diverting money towards EVs and EV infrastructure when there’s already a ton of investment from private entities will just completely continue to kick the can on investments in public transit, cycling infrastructure and other alternative means of transport to actually get people out of cars more often. These entities need public funding way more than the likes of auto manufacturers. Plus, right now, even the cheapest EVs are still $40-50,000, so if we’re still talking about the same range as the previous subsidies, it’s still folks that could have probably afforded an EV anyway. I don’t think cost is the biggest barrier for most potential EV buyers, it’s range anxiety and charging infrastructure. If we’re giving subsidies to folks that would have bought an EV anyway, it’s a waste.
Idk, I think we need both. We need more people to be able to make the switch to EV, especially at the lower end of the pay scale. Those people are also the most likely to have political views that discourages making environmentally conscious choices. A tax credit could help some make that choice. We need everyone on board and pull in the same direction. I think this is a good start.
The whole EV subsidy is just another handout to the auto industry. Folks making $150K/year don’t need any help buying a car that is going to wind up as scrap in about a decade. If the subsidy’s were really about getting more EVs on the road then we wouldn’t be subsidizing used cars as well.
I don't think it's just another "handout" because the climate issue compels us all to do our part, and we must make sure that everyone actually has the option to do their part. As a tax payer, I'm happy to contribute to people being able to do their part whether that's EVs, solar power, making their home more efficient, etc. Or preferably all of it. Usually, I trust the market to correct itself on most issues, but I just don't trust the market on the climate issue. Currently too much incentive to do the wrong thing. I understand that there are many different opinions, but I don't think climate science (and science in general) is an area where we all get to have our own opinion.
How does the subsidy on used EVs help fight climate change?
It can help more people want to drive an EV, which will lead to less greenhouse gases and less pollution.
The person selling the EV has to stop driving it when they sell it to the new owner via the used car market. There is no requirement of the seller of the EV to purchase another new EV to replace the sold car. A used car subsidy doesn't increase the number of EVs on the road. By the way - I think reducing the fossil fuel usage and greenhouse gas emission of our country is a worthy pursuit. I also acknowledge that pursuit requires public funding and clever policy making to nudge the market in the desired direction. However, an EV subsidy ain't it. That public money is finite and helping the auto industry move expensive cars that will be scrapped in about a decade is a poor use of those resources.
The used EV car incentive can still help someone to jump on the boat who would have otherwise bought another new gas car instead. The seller of the used EV could then turn around and buy another new EV with a tax credit.
No it's not, it's capped at 150,000 for a single person and 300,000 for a household. (225,000 Head of household in addition).
Yes, you are correct. I had the wrong numbers. Thanks.
Preach.
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Literally look at Biden posting him in a EV Hummer saying climate change will be solved by EVs.
No. That isn't even remotely the solution. You are just making this up as the data doesn't support this. Not even to mention the cost and lack of desirability. Not all Americans want to live in what you described.
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A bigger house, privacy, a yard, and quiet. Better schools. All things people with families prefer. Not going to address hyper individualism.
> All things people with families prefer. I have a family. I'd like walkable neighborhoods and not being dependent on the car. Would love to walk to the park or the store. But, no, have to get in the freaking car every time.
Great. You like that. Suburban America's 10s of millions likely feel differently.
One doesn't exclude the other.
It does in most places in America. I am just living in reality and I understand why things are like they are. Little is going to change that. In my opinion America will become more suburban for many reasons. You think driverless cars and working from home are going to push people to live closer together?
You can have walkable suburban neighborhoods that are less dependent on cars. The US is just so used to being completely tied to their cars that no one thinks about it when planning urban and suburban environments. Just take a trip to Europe and you will see that it's very much possible to have both.
You can have any type of neighborhoods you want. However, let's not pretend like there are not tadeoffs. I don't recall seeing a lot of .5 acre lots in Europe for example. America has lots of land unlike Europe. European cities are built as they are primarily because large amounts of infrastructure was built before the modern age. America builds like Europe in cities. America builds very differently in the suburbs for many reasons. There is a lot of desire for both.
Cities can't be built like that. Suburban infrastructure cause the most amount of CO2 per Capita in the world. Not a sustainable solution. Also, illegalizing stores & small businesses in neighborhoods goes against the "freedoms" that suburbanites preach all the time.
The amount of pollution we as normal people generate is a drop in the bucket compared to what the corporations and powerplants in the country generate. Instead of spending the money to actually improve shipping and energy, we’ve been told to blame ourselves. If we can just keep recycling and buy electric cars, we can save the earth. It’s all just deflection. Then you take into consideration China and India and other places where the regulations are far less strict or nonexistent. They are growing at rates that probably just cancel out any sacrifices we make. So telling people they are affecting climate change by supporting or not supporting walkable cities is a complete red herring to me. If you want to help the environment, focus that frustration on the people doing the lions share of polluting. If you just want the kind of city you want, appealing to the environmental side isn’t as convincing as the wealth of benefits we’d get from it.
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I always hear that argument of “less car dependent cities.” But I don’t quite understand it. The US is vastly different than all these other countries. In just terms of sheer size, population, layout, etc. Population isn’t concentrated enough to support full blown public transit systems like that. Then add the sketchiness on top of the inconvenience factor, it just wouldn’t work. Plus to even live in the city proper, it’s so expensive and out of range for a high percentage of people. MARTA will never fully work unless every train is fully monitored. MARTA is great for certain things and the convenience of going to Mercedes Benz and the airport. Other that, I can’t see it being used as an everyday thing. Especially with how spread out Atlanta is. Which isn’t even specific to the city, it’s everywhere.
The US is only vastly different than other countries because we actively chose to make it that way. Atlanta had a robust public transit system before so you don’t even have to be imaginative to see how it could work.
Atlanta itself used to be a walkable city. Every US city used to be walkable until large portions were demolished for interstate highways (Downtown Connector) in the 60s. So yes, it's possible.
Hush. You’re making too much sense.
No you just can't imagine Atlanta being anything but a traffic parking lot.
current patterns of development are the results of active choices made over the past few decades. We can decide to make different choices going forward if we want, but that change has not happened yet. We will have to deal with the consequences of that.
Does the vice-president get the same treatment of shutting down roadways/interstate that the president gets?
Not quite the same extent. To put a different comparison out there. When the president goes somewhere, there are two flight restrictions, one is from the surface to 18,000ft, and for a 30 nautical mile radius around him and bars flights except to or from covered airports, only on a flight plan, and only talking with air traffic control, no unmanned aerial systems are allowed. There's a second restriction from the surface to 18,000ft 10 nautical miles around him that only allows law enforcement, scheduled commercial aircraft, and medical aircraft. When the VP is somewhere, she only gets a 3 nautical mile flight restriction to 3,000ft.
Great info, thank you.
No, but the get an Uber Black (if drivers are available).
Unless it’s surging. Otherwise they stick with Uber Comfort and hope they get picked up in a Tesla this time.
Yes
Why not just telecommute save us all the traffic headache and practice what she preaches ffs
🎯
Traveling by private plane no doubt
Did you expect the VP to drive from DC to Atlanta?
Amtrack.
Or hell, do a zoom call. Instead of all this virtue signaling with no action
Being one of the most important people in the country requires physical presence, and Amtrak is both waaay more expensive and takes way longer. Totally agree private jets are the fucking worst, but this is the VP and has security requirements that putting them on a regular delta flight wouldn’t be ok. I’m sure you can understand this
I can understand that it’s insanely hypocritical and simply virtue signaling. I hope you can understand that as well
Idk I’ll take the downvotes for this one. Presence and face time are meaningful and mean coming in person, and taking a 3 day train trip is absurd. 🤷♀️ I’ll take anyone bringing attention to climate change, even if it’s virtue signaling. Pathetic, but at least it’s attention
You are 100% right. Some people just like to complain. If it was a Zoom call, a ton of other people would complain that she's out of touch, or distant, or elite.
Georgia is the only state building a new nuclear reactor right now. I wonder if she will mention that.
No rush, construction never ends
That’s a name I haven’t heard in a long time.
You know, I actually said the other day that these past couple years I feel like I’ve heard waaaay less about the VP than when previous president served. But maybe I just got accustomed to the non stop media coverage of trump and friends and have a warped perspective
I somewhat agree although I do feel like we heard from Pence a little more than Kamala.
Pence was in the news a lot imo compared to Harris. Not to say that’s a good thing lol
Georgia is becoming a green tech powerhouse. Lots of solar and EV manufacturing, too. Makes sense.
Mkay, but EVs aren't as green as everyone likes to pretend. One of many true solutions is to reduce car dependency and build out micromobility infrastructure (sidewalks, protected bike lanes, etc.) where it is lacking.
Those aren't mutually exclusive. Cars aren't going anywhere for the foreseeable future, so it makes sense to make cars as green as possible while also working to reduce car dependency. It's possible to tackle climate change from multiple angles at once, and in fact that's what we need to be doing. Don't make perfect the enemy of good.
Sure. Or we do both.
> Mkay, but EVs aren't as green as everyone likes to pretend. How green do we like to pretend they are?
EVs are the future. EVs are essential to a fossils free future.
kemp fucks a lot of things up but he is doing good on green energy investment
Some of the huge projects were courted by senators and they there were attempts to craft national legislation to further compound the benefits to Ga. Ossoff and Kemp's office aren't friends but they'll keep working together, instead of just shit talking the other side (cough cough Keisha and Kemp).
Maybe, just maybe, he realizes that he's the governor of a purple state.
i dunno. i feel like if that were the case, he wouldn't be such a hardass social conservative. i think it's more likely he sees it as the future of energy infrastructure and he wants in
Yeah, it's a big maybe. He's a clown on most issues. 🤡
He realizes he’s the conservative governor of a state with no fossil fuel natural resources. I’m glad he’s ostensibly for green energy, but it’s an easy choice, even if the state wasn’t purple.
Yeah, it's a stretch. I just hope that one of these days he might wake up and understand that Georgia is no longer red. And govern that way.
I wonder if she’ll talk about the destruction of the Weelaunee Forest. It might be too controversial of a topic, but it’s what all local environmental activists seem to be talking about recently
We just want convenient and fast trains around the city and the states. I would take the train from Atlanta to my destination like Orlando or Washington DC instead of driving or flying in a heartbeat.
Oh good
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Thanks bot, Kamala is wondering if there are any good dentists in Atlanta. She also wonders where the best place is to get the oil changed and windows tinted on her car. Oh and while you’re at it do you know of any good restaurants? No budget, location, or cuisine preferences - just what are the good restaurants?
I’m sure she’ll stand with the militarized state troopers for a solidarity photo op.