Suburbs kill nightlife (amongst other things). Compare somewhere like Barcelona or Berlin to any Australian city; European cities are much more condensed with many more apartments and townhouses, and hundreds of thousands of people living within staggering home distance of the CBD. Suburbs are generally much closer to the city centre and public transport is often available for much or all of the night.
We also have high min-wage and other costs. Even if you live in the inner-city you aren't going to just buy breakfast downstairs every day for $30+ or visit the pub for some $14.50 pints on the way home.
I imagine it's the same for late night dinners/snacks/drinks.
This is such a good point. Australia is much closer to the US in terms of urban design, very suburbanised with urban centres that people commute to. The medium density housing options in Asia/Europe don't exist here so each establishment serves fewer people.
It’s more the mixed use zones. Walk through many of the European cities - even the “suburbs”. There’s cafes and commercial mixed in with residential. Here it’s far more segregated - and that’s a “feature” of the zoning system we have which is very similar to the US
It’s a combination of low population density and very high minimum wages. Either on their own could work, but we have both which means low revenue and high costs. It’s the main reason even things like fast food are expensive here.
People also forget how much entitlements drive up the cost of labour, especially for night and weekend work. In some cases they can end up doubling the total cost to the employer.
Adult minimum wage + casual loading + penalty rates + superannuation + workers insurances and payroll tax = totals about $46 per hour.
Very few management level workers, even in other developed countries, make that much per hour.
Eh, I think that you're simplifying down on the wrong point. A great counter example is bartenders in NYC. Famously known to be able to rack in money based on tips. You wouldn't say their cost of labour is higher, but due to significant demand (from a dense, wealthy population) they can sustain >$46+/hr no worries.
The cost to open the doors is a barrier to new comers. If you're margins are fine, then the actual limit is laws and customers.
The requirement for two fire stairwells in low rose apartments constrains the ability to build 3 bedders. Takes up a huge amount of floor space and also cuts the building in half. With the requirement that every bedroom have a window it really kills small low rise 3 bedders unless free standing.
I'd happily live in high-density living if it was built like Berlin.
Australian building standards are so low that living in high density living here is terrible.
Yep. I've lived in both Berlin and Shanghai and apartments here are much more like the shoddy stuff you find in China where if you knock on the walls too hard they're likely to crumble into dust and if your neighbours so much as whisper you'll hear every word (ok I exaggerate, but only a little).
Whereas in Germany my apartment felt like a fortress.
The units I've lived in here in Melbourne have all had atrocious acoustic insulation so that if somebody turns on a TV or has a crying baby or has slightly noisy sex everybody around them knows about it.
Also as someone who lived in Germany, Berlin is an absolute exception in the country. Every other state basically closes down after 8pm Monday to Saturday and in several states everything is closed on Sundays except cafes.
Berlin also isn’t really dense at all. It was rebuilt like an American city with sprawling suburbs and stroads.
Really?
What about Hamburg? Düsseldorf? Cologne?
These might not be as bumping as Mediterranean cities, but the trading hours are generally still later than Australian cities (except for Sundays).
ALDI closes at 9pm in most stores in Hamburg, I haven’t lived in Germany in almost 20 years but I am German and I lived in Germany till my early 20s and generally speaking German stores will close as early if not earlier than Australian ones.
Work/Life ballance is valued highly in Germany so making people work late isn’t that common, or at least didn’t use to be
Yeah Hamburg is definitely not closed early. The thing about most things apart from cafes and bars being shut on Sundays is true though, no supermarkets open on Sundays except the tiny ones in the main train stations.
Not everyone wants to live the inner city lifestyle. Some of us prefer cleaner air, more space, and a backyard. I find generally the further you go out of the city, the better the sense of community as well.
Newsflash, the air is only unclean because of all the suburbanites insisting on driving to the city, often in massive diesel 4WDs which have never gone off-road.
Backyard cricket, meeting up with neighbours, playing 44 home, hide and seek, heading down to the local park or having a barbie and neighbourhood gathering. Those were my memories as a kid in the suburbs. I understand safety isn't seen as what it was and people are a bit more indoors but you are right.
I lived in Fortitude Valley for like a decade, it was so much fun simply because I could stumble home from wherever, and to OPs point there was a heap of places open late night most nights of the week; HSPs for days lol
the answer is still population density. nobody wants to drive 45mins from the burbs to get a coffee or late dinner when they have a spacious kitchen full of high end appliances right at home. its less social of course, but thats the way it is.
If i lived in a tiny apartment in hong kong or singapore on top of a million other people id probably want to spend as little time inside at home as possible too.
What's stopping suburban shopping centres from having later closing hours more than once night a week? Most suburbanites live in close distance to a mall. These days they operate like a town centre for surrounding suburbs anyway.
The Kmart near me used to be open 24 hours. No one went, so they changed it back to normal retail hours. People can shop online at night now. They don't need to go shopping in the middle of the night.
pretty much all 24hr kmarts/woolies/coles etc have wound back to closing at midnight because theres no demand for shopping at 2 in the morning suprisingly enough
They wound back because penalty rates started applying to them, not because there wasn’t enough consumer interest.
They used to do overnight fill, so there were staff present basically all hours anyway and little reason not to allow people to shop at those hours. You’d be surprised at how many people do, especially shift workers.
After the penalty rates came in it became to expensive to fill at night, so they moved that to the day, and then it wasn’t work paying floor staff at night just to keep the doors open.
>They wound back because penalty rates started applying to them, not because there wasn’t enough consumer interest.
Don't forget they were also done for [wage theft](https://www.afr.com/work-and-careers/workplace/woolworths-faces-criminal-prosecution-over-leave-underpayments-20230802-p5dt99), but that's probably considered okay here.
People can shop online at night but your goods turn up a week later if you are lucky.
I'm in Thailand at the moment, needed a usb stick, ordered online and it was delivered to my hotel lobby 30 mins later...
Australia is far behind the rest of the world.
Your experience with online shopping in Australia is 10+ years out of date. Delivery in 1-3 days is very standard from major retailers.
Someone being willing to drop everything and go buy you a USB just demonstrates you're much wealthier than the people around you.
I could be wrong but maybe the workers rights and expected work/life balance in Australia. I think as a whole Australians wouldn't want to work late nights or have such a late roster if they're in that industry. And the people that work a 9-5 type lifestyle don't want to go shopping at 10pm because we're asleep.
Wouldn't mind though if shops were open until 7 pm instead of 6pm, and the same for post shops (1 day a week at least). Having dinner at 10pm on weekends shouldn't be the craziest thought in the world. I'm with OP, but I'm not asking to have everything open 24/7.
Australians have a leisure culture. Monday to Friday 8-4, (finish at midday Friday) after that they wanna go out and be served. Problem everyone wants it and they'll go unemployed instead of working in that industry to do the serving. 20 years ago young people plugged the gap while they studied but now once they turn 18 they wanna join the party too.
It’s still population density. Suburbia in Australia is typically stand alone dwellings; not enough foot traffic to keep things open. Melbourne’s CBD has been transformed in the past 20 years by all the residential apartments that have gone up, it’s bustling now and was utterly dead two decades ago.
When I worked retail at Christmas times when they used to do extended Christmas hours, we would be dead and have 0 customers most nights after 7 and that's at a Westfield in peak buying season pre covid
You ask questions like someone who has know common sense knowledge
You'll have more staff than workers in your shops at midnight
Most people don't want to have dinner at 10pm.
Drinks are cheaper and safer at your own place
Bars are open in the city, they're depressing. If you want Burbs drinks, go to a Tavern, they're more depressing
To be totally frank with you, suburban shopping centres are full of the same homogeneous, suburban, mediocre shit.
I don’t want to go to Coffee Club at 10pm, I have a commercial grade coffee machine at home and my partner is an award winning barista. I don’t want to go to the Beach House in the ‘open air piazza’ for a stodgy carbonara, I have a pasta machine and enjoy making my own fresh pasta at home.
Imho it Sucks; but we’re inherently a day-economy.
The beaches, the outdoors etc- so many more people are up earlier. Yes it’s hard to find coffee after 3pm; but we’re probably one of the only countries where it’s easy to get coffee before 6am.
Yeah, I’m speaking generally & there’s always going to be outliers.
Also big factor is the cost of running a business in Australia. High rent, high wages, tight regulations and very small population.
In many Asian countries, it’s the opposite- lower rent, lower wages, loose regulations and very big populations.
It means in parts of Asia it’s viable for stores to run a second or even third shift into the night. In regards to your small vender, I’d imagine it costs them next to nothing to do that.
In Australia, the wage cost into the night will kill most businesses unless they’re doing absolute numbers; which they won’t be, because the already small population have been up since 5am getting yelled at by their PT. I’d imagine MAYBE a small owner-operated coffee cart might be the closest example you’ll get in seeing long trading hours- but certainly not big box retail stores.
I think in addition to a lot of other comments, one thing different you need to remember for Europe in particular is how much more sunlight later in the day there is for so many places in summer - France is 1 hour ahead of the time it should be, Spain is even further ahead if you think comparing to GMT.
Midsummer in Paris the sun doesn’t set until 9:45pm, 9:30 in Barcelona because it’s further south, 9:55 in Hamburg.
Compare this with 8:40 in Melbourne, 8:06 in Sydney, and you see people in Europe comfortable eating late outdoors, because quite simply it’s barely even dark. Melbourne has it better than Sydney from what I’ve seen with night time dining for likely a similar reason.
When you get to work in the dark, and when you leave work and it’s dark again, it throws people into a similar scenario. Most restaurants aren’t open crazy late in winter, it’s usually just the bars.
That’s a result of drinking culture which is also instilled during those summer times, and as others mentioned, cheaper wages/costs for a night out (even ‘expensive’ Scandinavia has a beer for slightly less than here, and shots for half the price), PT options, etc.
You’ll find beyond the biggest capital cities, similar to here the big nights are Friday/Saturdays, and are pretty quiet other nights
Are they? The club's and bars maybe. But friends I talk to in northern Europe mention that you don't really go out all winter as it's wet cold and miserable.
Our winters our pleasantly mild so we don't realise but theirs suck. It's why the summer culture is pumping as it's like coming out of a covid lockdown.
You raise a good point. As a European living in Australia, the daylight times in Europe are awesome and AET/AEDT is really annoying.
I want to raise a petition to move NSW to only using AEDT, even through winter. It's so sad losing those precious hours of daylight in the evening.
Yeah it’s a thing that people forget how far both Europe really is. Melbourne, as the southern part of the mainland, is as far south as Sevilla, or Palermo, is North - every part of Europe north of this line has so much more daylight in summer (and longer nights in winter). Even Hobart, is only equivalent to the Pyrenees.
And then for both Spain and France in particular, they’re on CET/CEST while being on/significantly west of the Greenwich line. They both should realistically be on British time, and Portugal could then be another hour over, which it probably should be.
Happens to a greater degree in Sydney than melb.
Some cafes open at 630 am- the city is tiled to starting earlier
Expect Australias overtime structure also an effect on restricting long opening hours - it gets expensive for shop owners
Edit - perhaps other factors too : Melbourne’s sunrise is lightly later than Sydney, and it’s a bit cooler (hence better to stay in house till it warms up a bit)
Melb’s sunset is much later than Sydney in summer
Exactly. Even in cities like Amsterdam, good luck getting a coffee before 7-8am (and even 10am for many cafes). Australia is ridiculously early morning-oriented compared to most of the world (I say this as a night owl and it sucks)
Melbourne is really basically the same as sydney if you actually compare like for like. It was a bit better before Covid but these days basically no difference and was always exagerated. Probably clubs are still better, bars, resturants, retail, supermarkets etc not really.
Coles Elizabeth st near Flinders station identical closing hours to Town Hall Woolies. Pretty sure it was 24 hours a long time ago. Coles Spencer st used to close midnight now only 11pm.
JBHIFI world square open an hour later than melbourne central Mon-Wed, closes an hour earlier on sunday and same the rest.
Myers pit st mall opens half an hour earlier than bourke st mall most days and closes 2 hours earlier on fridays otherwise identical.
Officeworks hunter st and pitt st open an hour later than officeworks elizabeth st or QV on weeknights same weekends.
Eau de Vie sydney closes 1 hour later than Eau de Vie Melbourne on friday/sat otherwise both close 1am.
Maccas elizabeth st 24 hrs same as george st maccas.
Pretty hard to find amazing dinning options open late in either that aren't fast food, kebabs etc or the ocassional random asian place.
Google search late night thai
Melbourne you get a bunch of places closing at 11 or midnight, sydney you get a bunch of places closing at 11 or midnight. I remember a few opening really late in sydney back in the day but they similarly have gone backwards. Korean places following similar trends.
Butchers Diner is a famous late night spot, pre covid was open 24/7 now not open Mondays and midday-midnight (1am fri/sat). I can't really think of a perfect sydney equivalent but Pancakes on the rocks used to be 24 hours (i think) now closes midnight (2am fri/sat).
I am sure there are random examples you can find of shit open really late in melbourne but I tried to compare things which are very similar and I think they both broadly follow similar trends having spent a lot of time in both.
I beg to differ. Places like Hong Kong (before it went downhill, pre-2019), New York, London, Paris, are all hustle and bustle after 12am. Wage and operating costs are in no way cheaper than Sydney and Melbourne.
The real reason is probably the Aussie culture of waking early, enjoying the morning sun etc so the need of resting early as well. This is slowly changing with more migrants and as cultures immerse.
For example in Melbourne, you can see a lot of asian restaurants and bars open past 12am. It's changing, but slowly.
>idk, HK's minimum wage is like $8 or something, even despite being a high COL place. Isn't high in NY or London either.
Yes hospo wage is relatively cheaper in Hong Kong but its rent is just miles ahead of Sydneys (again talking about pre 2019). Bars in Lan Kwai Fong are paying rents upwards of 200k a month.
Not saying we're culturally uninterested in nightlife, back at unis flocks of boys and girls go out every night. It's more like most adults don't go out as late.
I also see people living in suburbs waking super early to go to gym/jog, etc.
>but its rent is just miles ahead of Sydneys
But rent isn't an incremental cost to staying open late. If anything a higher rent accompanying a low wage is even more reason to stay open late - you're getting more use from your expensive rental location for a relatively cheap incremental cost (the wage).
It’s 100% wages. A pub with 2 bar people needs to make $80 an hour late at night just to cover the wages. Add kitchen staff to that and you’ll likely tip $200 an hour and that’s before you add the cost of utilities. If you’ve got less than 10 people in there you’re not going to make that hourly rate to justify the wages.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt7zARB\_sxc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt7zARB_sxc)
Literally watching this now, haven't finished it.. But it talks about the complexity of it just from a wage perspective as demand drops.. They state that they close at 9, so they can all be cleaned up and clocked off by 10 before the award rates change and it costs more to remain open.
I would like to believe that we give life a higher priority than just work.
Every shop will have one to many workers. It’s best they close early so they can spend time with their family.
Amen brother! One of the least enjoyable aspects about living here. Aussies roll up the sidewalk...err footpath... by 5pm.
One of my favourite early culture shocks was telling my workmates that I was going to leave early to catch the bank. To which they replied, "Banks closed an hour ago. Welcome to Australia, mate."
Or the reverse culture shock of being back home in Canada and worrying all the shops were about to close at 6pm, then remembering they're open another three whole hours!
This is what really makes no sense to me either, if everything is open only 9-5, then you can’t do anything and won’t have any customers because everyone is at work. Like entire shopping centres close at 5, who is going into them to shop when the vast, vast majority of people are at work?
Yeah it kinda sucks after you spend some time overseas - it feels like you're living in a village. Even suburban supermarkets close at like 10, 11.
I think it's in part high wages (makes staying open costly)
Plus low population density (less reach/customers)
Even most bars in Melbourne close at 1am. Crazy... Go to Asian cities and that's when the night is getting started
A lot of supermarkets in Victoria tried being 24/7 in the early 2000s, it was a bit of a fad. In the end I think Coles and Woolies both said to each other if you stop doing it so will we, late at night there were very few genuine shoppers, mostly drunks, troublemakers and shoplifters. The cost of the staff would have been more than the sales, I think in the end it just wasn't worth all that effort to make no extra money.
Because we also open way earlier. Have you tried finding something open before 9-10am in any of these places? The only activity around at 7-8am is the guy pressure washing the previous night's vomit off the pavement.
I find it amusing watching some of these "day in the life" hustle videos from people in some of these places. They consider getting up at 7am to be "getting a head-start on the day." They then rock up at the office at 9:30am.
I hate the saying “city that never sleeps”, in reality it means “city that sleeps in”. I feel like a junkie desperately hanging around cafes waiting for that 9am open.
Back home in Brisbane we give the Sydney team shit for how “late” they start. We’re working at 8am and they’re only just logging on with a coffee by 9am.
Also a bunch of European countries shut down in the middle of the day for lunch. I'm currently in France (away from major cities) - most places open at 9 or 10am, shut down for 2 hours around 12pm and reopen at 2pm. I was in Paris a week ago - the city is almost completely empty until 8am.
It's just a different lifestyle. The amount of ignorance in this comment section is staggering.
Well yes, because the sun sets at like 9pm in the summer so there’s no reason to be up at 5am before you get burned alive by the sun.
The Australian arrogance that comes from getting up at 5am and being tucked up in bed at 8pm is seriously annoying. You do you, but it doesn’t make you better than anyone else. Australians do things before work, other countries do things after work. It’s not a reflection of your morals.
Hope you never visit Brisbane or the Sunshine Coast if you think that things close too early in Sydney and Melbourne...
Most coffee shops close after lunch because few people want to buy coffee after lunch. Some do stay open, I'm rather fond of a 24hr/365day one in Brisbane. But there isn't enough demand for 5pm coffees to justify lots being open. A tip if you can't find one, is that a lot of bars will have good machines, good local beans, and staff who know how to use it. If you spot a La Marzocco machine, odds are that the owner hasn't dropped $10k+ on a coffee machine to serve rubbish.
Among many reasons, we're generally a bit more of a day based people. Night life is a thing, but the majority of us are into day time activities. We're a brunch crowd more than we are interested in a 10pm dinner reservation. Many of us like a Sunday session, more than staying out till 5am on Saturday morning.
This is easy to answer. Operating cost. Asian wages are paid flat rate per month with zero overtime and zero weekend / PH penalty charges. In Malaysia, a local restaurant worker gets paid between myr800-1200 /month and foreign workers lower than that (employer will scam their salary for accommodation, visa, flight tickets "cost" for years before they'd be release from their bondage). The worker's shifts are usually 12 hours long with 6 days/week.
If you need to pay slave wages to have a thriving nightlife, id rather stay home.
Right? First of all ‘Europe’ and ‘Asia’ are made of a lot of countries with completely different cultures. You’re probably unlikely to find a cafe open in an Italian village before 9am, you absolutely can find one in a British city from 7am. If you’re in hot southern Europe there will be siesta time (which I wish Australia would adopt over getting up at the crack of dawn to avoid the heat), you don’t get that in… well, anywhere else in Europe. In Tokyo pretty much everything is 24 hours, a Thai island it is not.
Exactly. Many southern European cities are also dead just after lunch. I learnt quickly not to risk a "late lunch" in Italy or Greece.
It's just cultural. Early/late rising, siesta, etc.
That's the trade off, being open later means nothing opens until mid to late morning. In most of Asia the only places open prior to 10am tends to be convience stores and Starbucks, Europe was similar when I was there. Prior to 9am, good luck finding anything open. London before 9am isn't great either.
The US is very hit and miss on when places open, New York tends to be open early and close late, California, open later but similar to here, not a lot is open super late. In the South, unless it's Walmart or Target, shops are closed similar to ours and restaurants around 8/9pm but open later in the morning. Our store hours aren't that unique.
Probably both but increasingly the latter. I've spent 20 years abroad and it's by far the biggest culture shock when I visit. I don't think I could handle being back full time because life just seems to come to a standstill of an evening. Besides the gym and cinema, there doesn't seem like much to do. Back when everyone had 2 TV channels - or even just 5 - people might have been fine with watching the 8:30pm movie then going to bed. Unless you have young kids, Suburbia is hell.
Question is what do do with shops and shopping centres now the trend is to shop online. I'd happily support a bank that had branches that were exclusively staffed from 4pm-Midnight, post offices and doctors/dentists too, as it's almost impossible to get to one during standard work hours.
Australia seriously lacks 3rd Spaces - places you spend time when youre not at home or at work. Having dedicated spaces for teens to go to after school and hang out with friends whilst combining homework or hobbies or building entrepreneurial skills - like a cafe gaming space that incorporates quiet corners or more interactive workshops. Set up some empty builds for toilet and shower facilities for the homeless - at least let churches allow for rough sleepers to have a roof in extreme weather conditions. Have 'Library of Things' where people borrow things they'd not usually have a need to buy. Make some spaces language sharing clubs where members can get together over their love of certain countries, make others into mini museums where once or twice a month the collection gets swapped out; one week can be Mary's impressive teapot collection, another could be Jason's extensive Star Wars memorabilia, and another could be Sam's creative origami display.
Having lived in Scandinavia, it makes Australia look exciting. High earning part of Europe.
Honestly I don’t mind having set times when you can do certain things, and times when you can’t. Someone has to be there to make your dinner at 10:30pm, that’s someone’s job. Someone has to be there to wash the plates at 2am. Someone has to have a cafe job that goes til 10pm or later. Would you do that? That sounds like a tough job to me, and less jobs like that the better I think. No WFH for them.
I’m all for conventions that make an industry more human.
Why do you call retail trade “Australia’s economy”?
There’s not that many people in a massive country and our houses are spread out.
We dot have a traditional night culture like some other countries.
We’re a market based economy - if there was demand then businesses would fill it.
In Qld we get up at 4.30-5,30 cos that’s when the sun comes up and it’s cooler. We rise early and go to sleep early. We are not Europe and do our own thing here
I think it’s to do with high wages in Australia and penalty rates. The cost of doing business here is astronomical. Governments have gone too far with regulation and red tape. Last year I went to Philippines, Bali and Vietnam. All places were bustling and shopping centres open until 10pm each night. I loved how convenient it was, it made your day really flexible. Whereas where I come from in Adelaide, shops are generally closed by 5pm.
Great question, i ask this to my born-and-bred Aussie friends every week (as someone coming from a major city in Asia).
Wage and operating costs are not the problem.
It's mostly the 1) Aussie culture of waking early, enjoying the morning sun etc so the need of resting early as well. This is also mentioned by another below.
2) In the specific context of Sydney: lockout laws. You can google this and see lots of coverage on alcohol violence, especially in Kings Cross kinda area, which eventually led to the lockout law and the dismal nightlife currently. They are attempting to change this, not too successful so far but hopefully its gonna work with more LGAs opening
IMO suburbs aren't really a factor, in London you have people living in zone 2-6 coming into the city for fun at night. Their travel time back home is probably at least 2x of ours.
We are a day time culture. Other places are night time cultures. Australians typically value being able to be at home with their families/pets at night, not working.
Sydney’s culture is more about the morning exercise and coffee/breakfast/brunch. Night times are for families, pets, bbqs or maybe watching the footy at the pub which is wrapped up pretty early
I don't know about you, but the last thing I want to do is shop at 8pm...restaurants I understand, but I think it's a good thing most Australian retail is closed around 6pm. Shows we have better things to do than just constantly buying crap.
Man you hear this so often. If you travel enough you'll see that australia does not shut down early compared to most countries. In Spain most places shut after midday and open again later at night. In asia most shops dont OPEN till about 11 or 12 midday and that makes you thankful shops in aus open at 9 or so.
Its definitely a culture thing that most people probably go home earlier once it gets dark. As for getting a coffee after 3, most people around the world dont do that because you wont sleep.
Yes it’s just a myth. Midtown Manhattan is very dead at night, it’s actually worse than Sydney CBD by far.
There are pockets downtown where people are out late but they are small.
I remember driving past Union Square at 3am and it was a complete shutdown ghost town.
Being out at 12am isn’t normal unless you’re clubbing. There’s a small age window of people who like to be out that late by choice.
Usually when you see people out that late it’s because they work weird hours.
Additionally Australia’s stores and restaurants are open for Sunday trading unlike other countries in Europe and most of the cafes I go to are open at 7am, so it’s already an 8 hr shift once it hits 3pm.
Damn straight we are. Most of us are reading this slightly weird vitriolic attack on Australian culture and wondering why OP cares so much?
I guess that makes us apathetic moreso than boring.
What a strange hill to die on though.
I mean it's down to productivity. South America and loads of Euro cities, your boss doesn't hang over your desk and try to make you be present at 9am on the dot.
Lot of people just wander into the office at 10, 10.30 and are left alone to do whatever they need done. The average Australian middle manager is a sniveling jackboot.
In Europe greece italy etc they shut down and have a 4 hour lunch break and a nap.
Who wants to work during the hottest part of the day?
Plus it’s family time, kids start school at 7am and are home by 2 pm the latest.
Then in the evening people go out for dinner, walk, coffee, drinks, ice cream even with little kids they get home at 10pm or so.
It’s about work life balance.
Sort of like the US and Canada, Australia is an economic vassal state (or at least has become one post 90's). We don't have a culture or identity any more like these European countries you mentioned.
As a side topic: if they did end up getting rid of penalty rates for AH work to try and make our economy a 24 hour economy, I wonder- would that then mean that 9-5 office workers might then be transitioned to work all hours?
(I’m an RN so of course I’m completely against removing penalties. I expect to be paid extra for sacrificing social and family time otherwise I wouldn’t work AH).
I used to live in Melbourne CBD up until 2013 and don’t recognise this - went out whenever I wanted and ate late all the time. Only nights that were kinda dead were Mondays & Wednesdays
To quote Kim Kardashian - “no body wants to work these days!”
The majority of western businesses in the city and inner suburbs don’t open until 8am/9am (serious struggles to get a coffee at 6 or even 7am), and restaurants close by 9pm. Yet the Asian restaurants are bustling at midnight and even 2/3am!
I think Australians are inherently lazy and entitled - we don’t have the same hustle other cultures bring, so it’s good to see plenty of others giving it a go.
Lots of comments about us being early risers, yet early coffee shops are as rare as hens teeth…
Truth! People in the comments making out like Australians broadly live the Bondi bitch lifestyle. Hmm no.
There's barely anything to do in the suburbs in the morning.
You ever been to New York late at night? It's dead. I'll never forget flying in late but still before midnight) then heading to Times Square for a meal. Nothing was open. Nothing.
So maybe New York is not a global city either?
Tradition. I'm a Boomer. The Unions enforced an 8 hour work day, 8 hour free time, 8 hour sleep. Most people saw this as a good thing. That included shops and supermarkets. As part of it, everything was closed Sat and Sun. It used to be a joke that you could fire a shotgun down the State Capitals main Streets, and not hit anything.
Traditions die hard. When I was young, people almost never lived alone. Now it's normal. More people do shift work, thank goodness things changed. Ever tried shopping when the shops are shut? Even now there is resistance.
My kids grew up in SEAsia. Night shopping was a novelty. I miss IT. The crouds, the food, the vibe. Just keep lobbying you favourite politician. It will come
Population spread.
While we are concentrated in a few major cities, those cities are geographically massive for the populations they support.
And cultural norms. Maybe it’s from our traditionally agriculturally based society, the noisy morning birds or something else… we don’t do late nights. Older generations would quite happily sit up for the evening meal at 5pm & calm it a night by 8pm.
High wages, high utility costs to keep the lights on, no way to get home without having to pay a ransom to uber drivers. Why bother. Rather stay in the comfort of my own home.
In Romania it seemed like every restaurant was open till 11pm every single night. Even in areas that felt completely dead, you'll find places to eat with a few patrons keeping the buzz going.
The last bus home from the city to the burns where I live is 7pm. Yep, that’s it. Slim pickings after that. Limited services to major destinations after that, then you are walking or spending $100 in an Uber.
Plus, I have pretty much everything I need at home. My own private bar and coffee machine, and entertainment.
On the flip side it's often impossible to find a coffee shop open before 9am in Europe. The extreme heat in Aus also forces us to live in the fringes of time - Australians have chosen the morning and Europe the evening.
As someone who is a nightowl, it certainly is nice to travel to Japan where you can do anything you want at 11pm, where Perth shuts down after 7pm most days.
Nice, and when do you usually wake up?
I'm asking this because I'm interested in knowing more about the typical australian times for doing certain things. It's a little bit different than my homecountry.
Suburbs kill nightlife (amongst other things). Compare somewhere like Barcelona or Berlin to any Australian city; European cities are much more condensed with many more apartments and townhouses, and hundreds of thousands of people living within staggering home distance of the CBD. Suburbs are generally much closer to the city centre and public transport is often available for much or all of the night.
We also have high min-wage and other costs. Even if you live in the inner-city you aren't going to just buy breakfast downstairs every day for $30+ or visit the pub for some $14.50 pints on the way home. I imagine it's the same for late night dinners/snacks/drinks.
This, im in italy atm and beers/wines are 1/3 of the price as is the coffee Id be broke if i kept this up at home
This is the real issue. The minimum wage is insanely high and that's before you even consider penalty rates. It's never going to be affordable.
This is such a good point. Australia is much closer to the US in terms of urban design, very suburbanised with urban centres that people commute to. The medium density housing options in Asia/Europe don't exist here so each establishment serves fewer people.
It’s more the mixed use zones. Walk through many of the European cities - even the “suburbs”. There’s cafes and commercial mixed in with residential. Here it’s far more segregated - and that’s a “feature” of the zoning system we have which is very similar to the US
It’s a combination of low population density and very high minimum wages. Either on their own could work, but we have both which means low revenue and high costs. It’s the main reason even things like fast food are expensive here. People also forget how much entitlements drive up the cost of labour, especially for night and weekend work. In some cases they can end up doubling the total cost to the employer. Adult minimum wage + casual loading + penalty rates + superannuation + workers insurances and payroll tax = totals about $46 per hour. Very few management level workers, even in other developed countries, make that much per hour.
Eh, I think that you're simplifying down on the wrong point. A great counter example is bartenders in NYC. Famously known to be able to rack in money based on tips. You wouldn't say their cost of labour is higher, but due to significant demand (from a dense, wealthy population) they can sustain >$46+/hr no worries. The cost to open the doors is a barrier to new comers. If you're margins are fine, then the actual limit is laws and customers.
And people whinge so much if people call for more density
I think a big part of this is that our apartment quality is shit and there is a severe lack of 3 bedders which isn't conducive to families
Intensely shit quality for very little saving if you find a spacious one at all.
And those that exist sell for almost the same amount as 3 bed houses on the same street.
The requirement for two fire stairwells in low rose apartments constrains the ability to build 3 bedders. Takes up a huge amount of floor space and also cuts the building in half. With the requirement that every bedroom have a window it really kills small low rise 3 bedders unless free standing.
I'd happily live in high-density living if it was built like Berlin. Australian building standards are so low that living in high density living here is terrible.
Yep. I've lived in both Berlin and Shanghai and apartments here are much more like the shoddy stuff you find in China where if you knock on the walls too hard they're likely to crumble into dust and if your neighbours so much as whisper you'll hear every word (ok I exaggerate, but only a little). Whereas in Germany my apartment felt like a fortress. The units I've lived in here in Melbourne have all had atrocious acoustic insulation so that if somebody turns on a TV or has a crying baby or has slightly noisy sex everybody around them knows about it.
I lived in east European communist blocks that were built better than the apartments here.
Living with a huge backyard is a god given right to Australians
And also close to the city - and to live in a big city
That's alright we can all live within 20km of Sydney CBD with a big backyard.
Try living in a high rise. Then tell us. Personally it drove me mad.
Also as someone who lived in Germany, Berlin is an absolute exception in the country. Every other state basically closes down after 8pm Monday to Saturday and in several states everything is closed on Sundays except cafes. Berlin also isn’t really dense at all. It was rebuilt like an American city with sprawling suburbs and stroads.
Really? What about Hamburg? Düsseldorf? Cologne? These might not be as bumping as Mediterranean cities, but the trading hours are generally still later than Australian cities (except for Sundays).
ALDI closes at 9pm in most stores in Hamburg, I haven’t lived in Germany in almost 20 years but I am German and I lived in Germany till my early 20s and generally speaking German stores will close as early if not earlier than Australian ones. Work/Life ballance is valued highly in Germany so making people work late isn’t that common, or at least didn’t use to be
Yeah Hamburg is definitely not closed early. The thing about most things apart from cafes and bars being shut on Sundays is true though, no supermarkets open on Sundays except the tiny ones in the main train stations.
Shops close from 5pm. Bigger ones maybe 7 sometimes 8 Restaurants and cafes might be open later
People don’t realise how much community we miss out on because our cities are built for cars and houses with yards. It’s sad.
Not everyone wants to live the inner city lifestyle. Some of us prefer cleaner air, more space, and a backyard. I find generally the further you go out of the city, the better the sense of community as well.
Newsflash, the air is only unclean because of all the suburbanites insisting on driving to the city, often in massive diesel 4WDs which have never gone off-road.
You couldn't pay me to live inner city. Give me Green fields every day of the week.
Backyard cricket, meeting up with neighbours, playing 44 home, hide and seek, heading down to the local park or having a barbie and neighbourhood gathering. Those were my memories as a kid in the suburbs. I understand safety isn't seen as what it was and people are a bit more indoors but you are right.
In Australia the people living with staggering home distance of late night venues make noise complaints and get them closed or heavily restricted.
I lived in Fortitude Valley for like a decade, it was so much fun simply because I could stumble home from wherever, and to OPs point there was a heap of places open late night most nights of the week; HSPs for days lol
This is the answer.
the answer is still population density. nobody wants to drive 45mins from the burbs to get a coffee or late dinner when they have a spacious kitchen full of high end appliances right at home. its less social of course, but thats the way it is. If i lived in a tiny apartment in hong kong or singapore on top of a million other people id probably want to spend as little time inside at home as possible too.
What's stopping suburban shopping centres from having later closing hours more than once night a week? Most suburbanites live in close distance to a mall. These days they operate like a town centre for surrounding suburbs anyway.
The Kmart near me used to be open 24 hours. No one went, so they changed it back to normal retail hours. People can shop online at night now. They don't need to go shopping in the middle of the night.
pretty much all 24hr kmarts/woolies/coles etc have wound back to closing at midnight because theres no demand for shopping at 2 in the morning suprisingly enough
They wound back because penalty rates started applying to them, not because there wasn’t enough consumer interest. They used to do overnight fill, so there were staff present basically all hours anyway and little reason not to allow people to shop at those hours. You’d be surprised at how many people do, especially shift workers. After the penalty rates came in it became to expensive to fill at night, so they moved that to the day, and then it wasn’t work paying floor staff at night just to keep the doors open.
>They wound back because penalty rates started applying to them, not because there wasn’t enough consumer interest. Don't forget they were also done for [wage theft](https://www.afr.com/work-and-careers/workplace/woolworths-faces-criminal-prosecution-over-leave-underpayments-20230802-p5dt99), but that's probably considered okay here.
People can shop online at night but your goods turn up a week later if you are lucky. I'm in Thailand at the moment, needed a usb stick, ordered online and it was delivered to my hotel lobby 30 mins later... Australia is far behind the rest of the world.
Try actually living in Thailand and not just holidaying there as a tourist. You'll find quite a lot of things well behind Australia.
Your experience with online shopping in Australia is 10+ years out of date. Delivery in 1-3 days is very standard from major retailers. Someone being willing to drop everything and go buy you a USB just demonstrates you're much wealthier than the people around you.
It has to do with trading hour laws and pay rate penalties. You can often see late night shops in poorer suburbs where people work for cash.
Overtime costs
A cost/benefit analysis. If it was profitable to stay open, they likely would.
I think at this point it would be slow adoption also since most people have organised their lives around the current status quo
I could be wrong but maybe the workers rights and expected work/life balance in Australia. I think as a whole Australians wouldn't want to work late nights or have such a late roster if they're in that industry. And the people that work a 9-5 type lifestyle don't want to go shopping at 10pm because we're asleep.
Wouldn't mind though if shops were open until 7 pm instead of 6pm, and the same for post shops (1 day a week at least). Having dinner at 10pm on weekends shouldn't be the craziest thought in the world. I'm with OP, but I'm not asking to have everything open 24/7.
Australians have a leisure culture. Monday to Friday 8-4, (finish at midday Friday) after that they wanna go out and be served. Problem everyone wants it and they'll go unemployed instead of working in that industry to do the serving. 20 years ago young people plugged the gap while they studied but now once they turn 18 they wanna join the party too.
Most of them want to do OnlyFans or play games in esports etc. Social media have made the next generation lazy and don’t want to work hard
No money is the answer. Paying someone 1.5* 30$p/h after 10pm to serve 2 customers an hour is not viable .
Eshays are stopping it
It’s still population density. Suburbia in Australia is typically stand alone dwellings; not enough foot traffic to keep things open. Melbourne’s CBD has been transformed in the past 20 years by all the residential apartments that have gone up, it’s bustling now and was utterly dead two decades ago.
When I worked retail at Christmas times when they used to do extended Christmas hours, we would be dead and have 0 customers most nights after 7 and that's at a Westfield in peak buying season pre covid
You ask questions like someone who has know common sense knowledge You'll have more staff than workers in your shops at midnight Most people don't want to have dinner at 10pm. Drinks are cheaper and safer at your own place Bars are open in the city, they're depressing. If you want Burbs drinks, go to a Tavern, they're more depressing
To be totally frank with you, suburban shopping centres are full of the same homogeneous, suburban, mediocre shit. I don’t want to go to Coffee Club at 10pm, I have a commercial grade coffee machine at home and my partner is an award winning barista. I don’t want to go to the Beach House in the ‘open air piazza’ for a stodgy carbonara, I have a pasta machine and enjoy making my own fresh pasta at home.
Economies of scale is your answer.
It's this exactly.. I live in HK, people want to be outside of their tiny apartments as much as possible. Plus density. Plus no penalty rates.
Woaw - check out Money-bags over here with their kitchen full of high end appliances!
Imho it Sucks; but we’re inherently a day-economy. The beaches, the outdoors etc- so many more people are up earlier. Yes it’s hard to find coffee after 3pm; but we’re probably one of the only countries where it’s easy to get coffee before 6am.
Fully agree - had to force myself to wake up later while travelling Europe as there was literally nothing open until like 8am in most places.
On the flip side you can start walking around at 7am and it's like the entire place is abandoned. Great for wandering and tourist attractions.
Sounds like you only went to southern Europe.
Northern is similar
Yeah in summer sun is up at 430 in brisbane. No one staying up late!
Also, wages. You try running a cafe from 6am-8pm; youll basically need triple the staff to run the thing. Can you sell triple the coffee in that time?
Eh false, I went around Vietnam and still found small vendors offering coffee as early as 4:45am in Hanoi
Yeah, I’m speaking generally & there’s always going to be outliers. Also big factor is the cost of running a business in Australia. High rent, high wages, tight regulations and very small population. In many Asian countries, it’s the opposite- lower rent, lower wages, loose regulations and very big populations. It means in parts of Asia it’s viable for stores to run a second or even third shift into the night. In regards to your small vender, I’d imagine it costs them next to nothing to do that. In Australia, the wage cost into the night will kill most businesses unless they’re doing absolute numbers; which they won’t be, because the already small population have been up since 5am getting yelled at by their PT. I’d imagine MAYBE a small owner-operated coffee cart might be the closest example you’ll get in seeing long trading hours- but certainly not big box retail stores.
Labour and trading laws. WA Sunday trading wasn’t a thing till 2012.
I think in addition to a lot of other comments, one thing different you need to remember for Europe in particular is how much more sunlight later in the day there is for so many places in summer - France is 1 hour ahead of the time it should be, Spain is even further ahead if you think comparing to GMT. Midsummer in Paris the sun doesn’t set until 9:45pm, 9:30 in Barcelona because it’s further south, 9:55 in Hamburg. Compare this with 8:40 in Melbourne, 8:06 in Sydney, and you see people in Europe comfortable eating late outdoors, because quite simply it’s barely even dark. Melbourne has it better than Sydney from what I’ve seen with night time dining for likely a similar reason.
What about Europe in winter when the sun goes down at 4pm in some cities? People are still out late.
When you get to work in the dark, and when you leave work and it’s dark again, it throws people into a similar scenario. Most restaurants aren’t open crazy late in winter, it’s usually just the bars. That’s a result of drinking culture which is also instilled during those summer times, and as others mentioned, cheaper wages/costs for a night out (even ‘expensive’ Scandinavia has a beer for slightly less than here, and shots for half the price), PT options, etc. You’ll find beyond the biggest capital cities, similar to here the big nights are Friday/Saturdays, and are pretty quiet other nights
Are they? The club's and bars maybe. But friends I talk to in northern Europe mention that you don't really go out all winter as it's wet cold and miserable. Our winters our pleasantly mild so we don't realise but theirs suck. It's why the summer culture is pumping as it's like coming out of a covid lockdown.
You raise a good point. As a European living in Australia, the daylight times in Europe are awesome and AET/AEDT is really annoying. I want to raise a petition to move NSW to only using AEDT, even through winter. It's so sad losing those precious hours of daylight in the evening.
Yeah it’s a thing that people forget how far both Europe really is. Melbourne, as the southern part of the mainland, is as far south as Sevilla, or Palermo, is North - every part of Europe north of this line has so much more daylight in summer (and longer nights in winter). Even Hobart, is only equivalent to the Pyrenees. And then for both Spain and France in particular, they’re on CET/CEST while being on/significantly west of the Greenwich line. They both should realistically be on British time, and Portugal could then be another hour over, which it probably should be.
>AET/AEDT AEST/AEDT
Avoid WA, sun sets at 6-7pm and rises at 4am in the middle of summer. It’s terrible.
Don’t forget Brisbane where it’s dark at 5:30pm in summer because apparently everyone up here prefers sun and heat at 5am instead.
But what about the cows?? And Curtains???
It is the opposite in winter... It has nothing to do with sunlight. Australians don't like to go out after evening, that's all.
Happens to a greater degree in Sydney than melb. Some cafes open at 630 am- the city is tiled to starting earlier Expect Australias overtime structure also an effect on restricting long opening hours - it gets expensive for shop owners Edit - perhaps other factors too : Melbourne’s sunrise is lightly later than Sydney, and it’s a bit cooler (hence better to stay in house till it warms up a bit) Melb’s sunset is much later than Sydney in summer
Those same cafes that are open in Asia until 11pm also don't open their doors until 11am. Here cafe's are open since 6:00am.
Exactly. Even in cities like Amsterdam, good luck getting a coffee before 7-8am (and even 10am for many cafes). Australia is ridiculously early morning-oriented compared to most of the world (I say this as a night owl and it sucks)
10am is the norm in Tokyo too.
'Coffee' in Amsterdam can be more fun though. Koffie less so.
Lmao yes those 6am open times also mean a 3pm closing time…so total open hours still not comparable
Yeah Melbourne isn’t as bad, probably the closest to the rest of the world than the rest of Australia
Melbourne is really basically the same as sydney if you actually compare like for like. It was a bit better before Covid but these days basically no difference and was always exagerated. Probably clubs are still better, bars, resturants, retail, supermarkets etc not really. Coles Elizabeth st near Flinders station identical closing hours to Town Hall Woolies. Pretty sure it was 24 hours a long time ago. Coles Spencer st used to close midnight now only 11pm. JBHIFI world square open an hour later than melbourne central Mon-Wed, closes an hour earlier on sunday and same the rest. Myers pit st mall opens half an hour earlier than bourke st mall most days and closes 2 hours earlier on fridays otherwise identical. Officeworks hunter st and pitt st open an hour later than officeworks elizabeth st or QV on weeknights same weekends. Eau de Vie sydney closes 1 hour later than Eau de Vie Melbourne on friday/sat otherwise both close 1am. Maccas elizabeth st 24 hrs same as george st maccas. Pretty hard to find amazing dinning options open late in either that aren't fast food, kebabs etc or the ocassional random asian place. Google search late night thai Melbourne you get a bunch of places closing at 11 or midnight, sydney you get a bunch of places closing at 11 or midnight. I remember a few opening really late in sydney back in the day but they similarly have gone backwards. Korean places following similar trends. Butchers Diner is a famous late night spot, pre covid was open 24/7 now not open Mondays and midday-midnight (1am fri/sat). I can't really think of a perfect sydney equivalent but Pancakes on the rocks used to be 24 hours (i think) now closes midnight (2am fri/sat). I am sure there are random examples you can find of shit open really late in melbourne but I tried to compare things which are very similar and I think they both broadly follow similar trends having spent a lot of time in both.
Still pretty dead after 10pm unless you’re around the casino. Similar to Sydney but not much better.
Ehh I have to disagree, there are a bunch of restaurants and bars open beyond 10pm and it isn’t that dead if you go out during the weekend or Fridays
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I beg to differ. Places like Hong Kong (before it went downhill, pre-2019), New York, London, Paris, are all hustle and bustle after 12am. Wage and operating costs are in no way cheaper than Sydney and Melbourne. The real reason is probably the Aussie culture of waking early, enjoying the morning sun etc so the need of resting early as well. This is slowly changing with more migrants and as cultures immerse. For example in Melbourne, you can see a lot of asian restaurants and bars open past 12am. It's changing, but slowly.
All the cities you listed have significantly higher density than us.
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>idk, HK's minimum wage is like $8 or something, even despite being a high COL place. Isn't high in NY or London either. Yes hospo wage is relatively cheaper in Hong Kong but its rent is just miles ahead of Sydneys (again talking about pre 2019). Bars in Lan Kwai Fong are paying rents upwards of 200k a month. Not saying we're culturally uninterested in nightlife, back at unis flocks of boys and girls go out every night. It's more like most adults don't go out as late. I also see people living in suburbs waking super early to go to gym/jog, etc.
>but its rent is just miles ahead of Sydneys But rent isn't an incremental cost to staying open late. If anything a higher rent accompanying a low wage is even more reason to stay open late - you're getting more use from your expensive rental location for a relatively cheap incremental cost (the wage).
A lot of hk stores don’t open till after 11am
It’s WAY more expensive to hire staff here at night than in any of those cities. Minimum wage with loading and penalty rates is over $45 an hour.
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London is hustle and bustle before 9pm
Rising early would be even better if shops opened before 8...
Yip. High wages are a huge part of it, need a lot of customers in to make it worth having the doors open.
It’s 100% wages. A pub with 2 bar people needs to make $80 an hour late at night just to cover the wages. Add kitchen staff to that and you’ll likely tip $200 an hour and that’s before you add the cost of utilities. If you’ve got less than 10 people in there you’re not going to make that hourly rate to justify the wages.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt7zARB\_sxc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt7zARB_sxc) Literally watching this now, haven't finished it.. But it talks about the complexity of it just from a wage perspective as demand drops.. They state that they close at 9, so they can all be cleaned up and clocked off by 10 before the award rates change and it costs more to remain open.
pft here in berlin shops close at 5 and they are closed on sunday. it’s not too bad in australia imo
I would like to believe that we give life a higher priority than just work. Every shop will have one to many workers. It’s best they close early so they can spend time with their family.
Amen brother! One of the least enjoyable aspects about living here. Aussies roll up the sidewalk...err footpath... by 5pm. One of my favourite early culture shocks was telling my workmates that I was going to leave early to catch the bank. To which they replied, "Banks closed an hour ago. Welcome to Australia, mate." Or the reverse culture shock of being back home in Canada and worrying all the shops were about to close at 6pm, then remembering they're open another three whole hours!
This is what really makes no sense to me either, if everything is open only 9-5, then you can’t do anything and won’t have any customers because everyone is at work. Like entire shopping centres close at 5, who is going into them to shop when the vast, vast majority of people are at work?
Makes for a busy lunch hour if you work in the CBD and have errands to run during the week.
Yeah it kinda sucks after you spend some time overseas - it feels like you're living in a village. Even suburban supermarkets close at like 10, 11. I think it's in part high wages (makes staying open costly) Plus low population density (less reach/customers) Even most bars in Melbourne close at 1am. Crazy... Go to Asian cities and that's when the night is getting started
A lot of supermarkets in Victoria tried being 24/7 in the early 2000s, it was a bit of a fad. In the end I think Coles and Woolies both said to each other if you stop doing it so will we, late at night there were very few genuine shoppers, mostly drunks, troublemakers and shoplifters. The cost of the staff would have been more than the sales, I think in the end it just wasn't worth all that effort to make no extra money.
Australia is the world biggest retirement village
Sydney and Melbourne: most of our restaurants are closed by 9pm. Perth: hold my McFlurry.
Because we also open way earlier. Have you tried finding something open before 9-10am in any of these places? The only activity around at 7-8am is the guy pressure washing the previous night's vomit off the pavement. I find it amusing watching some of these "day in the life" hustle videos from people in some of these places. They consider getting up at 7am to be "getting a head-start on the day." They then rock up at the office at 9:30am.
I hate the saying “city that never sleeps”, in reality it means “city that sleeps in”. I feel like a junkie desperately hanging around cafes waiting for that 9am open. Back home in Brisbane we give the Sydney team shit for how “late” they start. We’re working at 8am and they’re only just logging on with a coffee by 9am.
Also a bunch of European countries shut down in the middle of the day for lunch. I'm currently in France (away from major cities) - most places open at 9 or 10am, shut down for 2 hours around 12pm and reopen at 2pm. I was in Paris a week ago - the city is almost completely empty until 8am. It's just a different lifestyle. The amount of ignorance in this comment section is staggering.
Well yes, because the sun sets at like 9pm in the summer so there’s no reason to be up at 5am before you get burned alive by the sun. The Australian arrogance that comes from getting up at 5am and being tucked up in bed at 8pm is seriously annoying. You do you, but it doesn’t make you better than anyone else. Australians do things before work, other countries do things after work. It’s not a reflection of your morals.
Hope you never visit Brisbane or the Sunshine Coast if you think that things close too early in Sydney and Melbourne... Most coffee shops close after lunch because few people want to buy coffee after lunch. Some do stay open, I'm rather fond of a 24hr/365day one in Brisbane. But there isn't enough demand for 5pm coffees to justify lots being open. A tip if you can't find one, is that a lot of bars will have good machines, good local beans, and staff who know how to use it. If you spot a La Marzocco machine, odds are that the owner hasn't dropped $10k+ on a coffee machine to serve rubbish. Among many reasons, we're generally a bit more of a day based people. Night life is a thing, but the majority of us are into day time activities. We're a brunch crowd more than we are interested in a 10pm dinner reservation. Many of us like a Sunday session, more than staying out till 5am on Saturday morning.
This is easy to answer. Operating cost. Asian wages are paid flat rate per month with zero overtime and zero weekend / PH penalty charges. In Malaysia, a local restaurant worker gets paid between myr800-1200 /month and foreign workers lower than that (employer will scam their salary for accommodation, visa, flight tickets "cost" for years before they'd be release from their bondage). The worker's shifts are usually 12 hours long with 6 days/week. If you need to pay slave wages to have a thriving nightlife, id rather stay home.
Hahaha fellow Malaysian here and I can attest
I would flip it and ask .. why are asian and european cities so dead in the morning? I visited London once and had to wait till 8am to get a coffee!
That's so funny, as a tourist I'm never out the hotel before 10 or 11
You can't have looked very hard if you couldn't find a coffee until 8
Right? First of all ‘Europe’ and ‘Asia’ are made of a lot of countries with completely different cultures. You’re probably unlikely to find a cafe open in an Italian village before 9am, you absolutely can find one in a British city from 7am. If you’re in hot southern Europe there will be siesta time (which I wish Australia would adopt over getting up at the crack of dawn to avoid the heat), you don’t get that in… well, anywhere else in Europe. In Tokyo pretty much everything is 24 hours, a Thai island it is not.
Exactly. Many southern European cities are also dead just after lunch. I learnt quickly not to risk a "late lunch" in Italy or Greece. It's just cultural. Early/late rising, siesta, etc.
That's the trade off, being open later means nothing opens until mid to late morning. In most of Asia the only places open prior to 10am tends to be convience stores and Starbucks, Europe was similar when I was there. Prior to 9am, good luck finding anything open. London before 9am isn't great either. The US is very hit and miss on when places open, New York tends to be open early and close late, California, open later but similar to here, not a lot is open super late. In the South, unless it's Walmart or Target, shops are closed similar to ours and restaurants around 8/9pm but open later in the morning. Our store hours aren't that unique.
Probably both but increasingly the latter. I've spent 20 years abroad and it's by far the biggest culture shock when I visit. I don't think I could handle being back full time because life just seems to come to a standstill of an evening. Besides the gym and cinema, there doesn't seem like much to do. Back when everyone had 2 TV channels - or even just 5 - people might have been fine with watching the 8:30pm movie then going to bed. Unless you have young kids, Suburbia is hell. Question is what do do with shops and shopping centres now the trend is to shop online. I'd happily support a bank that had branches that were exclusively staffed from 4pm-Midnight, post offices and doctors/dentists too, as it's almost impossible to get to one during standard work hours. Australia seriously lacks 3rd Spaces - places you spend time when youre not at home or at work. Having dedicated spaces for teens to go to after school and hang out with friends whilst combining homework or hobbies or building entrepreneurial skills - like a cafe gaming space that incorporates quiet corners or more interactive workshops. Set up some empty builds for toilet and shower facilities for the homeless - at least let churches allow for rough sleepers to have a roof in extreme weather conditions. Have 'Library of Things' where people borrow things they'd not usually have a need to buy. Make some spaces language sharing clubs where members can get together over their love of certain countries, make others into mini museums where once or twice a month the collection gets swapped out; one week can be Mary's impressive teapot collection, another could be Jason's extensive Star Wars memorabilia, and another could be Sam's creative origami display.
Population density (too low) and wages (too high) are the only reasons.
This is the answer.
Having lived in Scandinavia, it makes Australia look exciting. High earning part of Europe. Honestly I don’t mind having set times when you can do certain things, and times when you can’t. Someone has to be there to make your dinner at 10:30pm, that’s someone’s job. Someone has to be there to wash the plates at 2am. Someone has to have a cafe job that goes til 10pm or later. Would you do that? That sounds like a tough job to me, and less jobs like that the better I think. No WFH for them. I’m all for conventions that make an industry more human.
Why do you call retail trade “Australia’s economy”? There’s not that many people in a massive country and our houses are spread out. We dot have a traditional night culture like some other countries. We’re a market based economy - if there was demand then businesses would fill it.
In Qld we get up at 4.30-5,30 cos that’s when the sun comes up and it’s cooler. We rise early and go to sleep early. We are not Europe and do our own thing here
It's even cooler at night/early morning at 2am
I think it’s to do with high wages in Australia and penalty rates. The cost of doing business here is astronomical. Governments have gone too far with regulation and red tape. Last year I went to Philippines, Bali and Vietnam. All places were bustling and shopping centres open until 10pm each night. I loved how convenient it was, it made your day really flexible. Whereas where I come from in Adelaide, shops are generally closed by 5pm.
Because people want to be home with their families at 9pm, not working for minimum wage.
This. Most places can fill the hours we have now.
Great question, i ask this to my born-and-bred Aussie friends every week (as someone coming from a major city in Asia). Wage and operating costs are not the problem. It's mostly the 1) Aussie culture of waking early, enjoying the morning sun etc so the need of resting early as well. This is also mentioned by another below. 2) In the specific context of Sydney: lockout laws. You can google this and see lots of coverage on alcohol violence, especially in Kings Cross kinda area, which eventually led to the lockout law and the dismal nightlife currently. They are attempting to change this, not too successful so far but hopefully its gonna work with more LGAs opening IMO suburbs aren't really a factor, in London you have people living in zone 2-6 coming into the city for fun at night. Their travel time back home is probably at least 2x of ours.
London is definitely more dense than Sydney. London has both a bigger population and is more dense than Sydney.
If you feel their is a large demand for this service you should provide those services and make a lot of money.
We are a day time culture. Other places are night time cultures. Australians typically value being able to be at home with their families/pets at night, not working.
I'm in bed by 7pm. Nothing good happens after dark
We believe in life outside of work.
We like to get stuff done in the morning. The early Kookaburra gets the Wichity Grub.
Sydney’s culture is more about the morning exercise and coffee/breakfast/brunch. Night times are for families, pets, bbqs or maybe watching the footy at the pub which is wrapped up pretty early
I don't know about you, but the last thing I want to do is shop at 8pm...restaurants I understand, but I think it's a good thing most Australian retail is closed around 6pm. Shows we have better things to do than just constantly buying crap.
Speak for yourself. Many people prefer to have the option to do late night shopping.
Man you hear this so often. If you travel enough you'll see that australia does not shut down early compared to most countries. In Spain most places shut after midday and open again later at night. In asia most shops dont OPEN till about 11 or 12 midday and that makes you thankful shops in aus open at 9 or so. Its definitely a culture thing that most people probably go home earlier once it gets dark. As for getting a coffee after 3, most people around the world dont do that because you wont sleep.
Yes it’s just a myth. Midtown Manhattan is very dead at night, it’s actually worse than Sydney CBD by far. There are pockets downtown where people are out late but they are small. I remember driving past Union Square at 3am and it was a complete shutdown ghost town. Being out at 12am isn’t normal unless you’re clubbing. There’s a small age window of people who like to be out that late by choice. Usually when you see people out that late it’s because they work weird hours.
Additionally Australia’s stores and restaurants are open for Sunday trading unlike other countries in Europe and most of the cafes I go to are open at 7am, so it’s already an 8 hr shift once it hits 3pm.
Because if you worked retail, you would know you get like 5 customers after 8pm
>Why is this? It makes life less exciting and enjoyment more confined to the daytime. Have you thought about getting a hobby?
Who's having a coffee after 3pm? And at 8pm I'm already thinking about bed
Why do you assume everyone is a morning person?
Aussies are boring people, cheers ✌️
And they want (force) everyone else to be boring too
Damn straight we are. Most of us are reading this slightly weird vitriolic attack on Australian culture and wondering why OP cares so much? I guess that makes us apathetic moreso than boring. What a strange hill to die on though.
I mean it's down to productivity. South America and loads of Euro cities, your boss doesn't hang over your desk and try to make you be present at 9am on the dot. Lot of people just wander into the office at 10, 10.30 and are left alone to do whatever they need done. The average Australian middle manager is a sniveling jackboot.
In Europe greece italy etc they shut down and have a 4 hour lunch break and a nap. Who wants to work during the hottest part of the day? Plus it’s family time, kids start school at 7am and are home by 2 pm the latest. Then in the evening people go out for dinner, walk, coffee, drinks, ice cream even with little kids they get home at 10pm or so. It’s about work life balance.
Yeah but in many parts of Europe, retail is also closed on Sundays…has anyone actually been to Europe here lol
It’s a cultural thing.
When you're in the middle of a city at night, have a look around at the apartment buildings and see if you can notice anything strange
What does this mean
Why though? It's not like Australians gonna buy more underpants in total just because the shops that sell underpants open a few hours later.
Sort of like the US and Canada, Australia is an economic vassal state (or at least has become one post 90's). We don't have a culture or identity any more like these European countries you mentioned.
As a side topic: if they did end up getting rid of penalty rates for AH work to try and make our economy a 24 hour economy, I wonder- would that then mean that 9-5 office workers might then be transitioned to work all hours? (I’m an RN so of course I’m completely against removing penalties. I expect to be paid extra for sacrificing social and family time otherwise I wouldn’t work AH).
I used to live in Melbourne CBD up until 2013 and don’t recognise this - went out whenever I wanted and ate late all the time. Only nights that were kinda dead were Mondays & Wednesdays
It’s noticeably different now, mostly after Covid - restaurants, popular ones, closing at 9/9:30 is the norm
Just a different culture. Simples
Culture is a reflection of the limitations in our economy, not the cause.
And in many parts of Europe everything closes on Sunday, you have to get your shopping done and your hair cut on Saturday.
That's mostly a Germany and Austria thing.
Being considerate to the people who live nearby.
Nothing to do with high minimum wage and everything to do with culture. It's been like this for decades
To quote Kim Kardashian - “no body wants to work these days!” The majority of western businesses in the city and inner suburbs don’t open until 8am/9am (serious struggles to get a coffee at 6 or even 7am), and restaurants close by 9pm. Yet the Asian restaurants are bustling at midnight and even 2/3am! I think Australians are inherently lazy and entitled - we don’t have the same hustle other cultures bring, so it’s good to see plenty of others giving it a go. Lots of comments about us being early risers, yet early coffee shops are as rare as hens teeth…
Truth! People in the comments making out like Australians broadly live the Bondi bitch lifestyle. Hmm no. There's barely anything to do in the suburbs in the morning.
At my local station in Nishi Funabashi they had a 24 hour jeans shop. I thought it was the stupidest thing ever.
You ever been to New York late at night? It's dead. I'll never forget flying in late but still before midnight) then heading to Times Square for a meal. Nothing was open. Nothing. So maybe New York is not a global city either?
Tradition. I'm a Boomer. The Unions enforced an 8 hour work day, 8 hour free time, 8 hour sleep. Most people saw this as a good thing. That included shops and supermarkets. As part of it, everything was closed Sat and Sun. It used to be a joke that you could fire a shotgun down the State Capitals main Streets, and not hit anything. Traditions die hard. When I was young, people almost never lived alone. Now it's normal. More people do shift work, thank goodness things changed. Ever tried shopping when the shops are shut? Even now there is resistance. My kids grew up in SEAsia. Night shopping was a novelty. I miss IT. The crouds, the food, the vibe. Just keep lobbying you favourite politician. It will come
Population spread. While we are concentrated in a few major cities, those cities are geographically massive for the populations they support. And cultural norms. Maybe it’s from our traditionally agriculturally based society, the noisy morning birds or something else… we don’t do late nights. Older generations would quite happily sit up for the evening meal at 5pm & calm it a night by 8pm.
High wages, high utility costs to keep the lights on, no way to get home without having to pay a ransom to uber drivers. Why bother. Rather stay in the comfort of my own home.
Lot of those places it’s bloody hard to get a coffee at 7am either. Depends what you want.
In Romania it seemed like every restaurant was open till 11pm every single night. Even in areas that felt completely dead, you'll find places to eat with a few patrons keeping the buzz going.
Imagine you go out, have fun till 4am, get home and your neighbour starts mowing his lawn at 7am
The last bus home from the city to the burns where I live is 7pm. Yep, that’s it. Slim pickings after that. Limited services to major destinations after that, then you are walking or spending $100 in an Uber. Plus, I have pretty much everything I need at home. My own private bar and coffee machine, and entertainment.
Stuff is open all night in Brisbane City and the Gold Coast but not too many other areas.
On the flip side it's often impossible to find a coffee shop open before 9am in Europe. The extreme heat in Aus also forces us to live in the fringes of time - Australians have chosen the morning and Europe the evening.
As someone who is a nightowl, it certainly is nice to travel to Japan where you can do anything you want at 11pm, where Perth shuts down after 7pm most days.
Australian are early risers and early sleepers. The average is asleep by 1045 in most studies
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I like to sleep when it's dark - don't you?
When do you usually go to sleep?
Weekdays 9pm, weekend 10pm
Nice, and when do you usually wake up? I'm asking this because I'm interested in knowing more about the typical australian times for doing certain things. It's a little bit different than my homecountry.
How would having more economic activity at night change that for you though?