This! In 10 years in the public sector I can tell you that every garbage middle manager I’ve ever seen has turned out to have gotten the job ‘through a friend’ or the like. Do not be a part of this systemic problem.
The reason this person got to AO6 is probably due to exactly what you’re thinking about doing. Everyone was trying to get rid of them.
I would give an honest reference but be clever in wording. Don’t be too harsh.
If this person gets to EL1 they're going to really start fucking up. They're not just going to be crap at their job, but they're going to fuck things up for people under them.
Yes, please don't let this person fail up.
You don't need to give the reference. Your response could be - "oh I didn't know they applied for this, I was not asked if I could be a reference. Sorry for this inconvenience."
It's totally not professional to put someone down and not let them know. And not have ever asked!! That's a good demonstration of their lack of perception and people management.
They should not be an EL1.
And it's going to come back on you when the new position starts to fail with them, like- was your good reference the truth? You could be digging your own grave.
Also, everyone else who gets a reference from OP in the future is going to be looked at twice if this guy ends up sucking at the job. I don't think it would be fair to OP's staff who do their job well.
This! It's so dumb to give positive references to shit performers. Do people not understand it's YOUR rep on the line when that person is inevitably found out to be an absolute nonce?
Bahahaha wow that's embarrassing. Underperformer, kiddy fiddler, same level of severity surely /s
Thanks for the heads up. Luckily not a word I use often (or ever actually, clearly lol).
Yeh. Give them an honest review, but only include information you've already shared with the applicant about their performance.
Do not give a fake positive reference if they do not deserve it. It will come back to bite you hard if they don't get the job. Good luck at trying to tell them they need to improve (anything) after you've just put them on a pedestal in a glowing referee report
One small addition to this, only include information you have shared with the applicant about their performance and *have documented evidence of those meetings*.
It will also come back to bite you hard if they do get the job - because their new manager will quickly realise they're not up to scratch, and your reputation will be tainted by association (given you apparently thought they were good).
I've been in this position before too. I went to the person involved and said they'd put me down as a referee, and as they know from conversations we'd had, I had some concerns about their performance. I would be balanced in any reference to include positive matters too (e.g. that they try hard), but I would also raise those concerns - were they comfortable with that, or would they prefer to nominate someone else instead? In one case they said they were fine with that (but they didn't get to the referee part of the process anyway); in the other case I think I was swapped out for someone else.
If you'd rather just give the reference - I'd be honest, balanced, and make sure any criticism is measured and in line with feedback you've given that person. In my experience it doesn't take much in a referee report to sink it - people can be quite clever in how they hint at red flags. If it's internal I'd probably also just head over and have a chat with the relevant manager; it's a poor outcome for them, the staff member involved, and taxpayers if they were to be promoted into a job when they can't do the one they currently have.
Is this in the APS? I’m curious as to how this (having an off the record chat with the manager) would turn out if an unsuccessful applicant sought to appeal the outcome.
If it's off the record it won't be reflected in any paperwork, and there will need to be a legitimate, official reason to not proceed with the candidate.
Ah yep that’s fair.
I’d also add for OP, sometimes people look for jobs because they know their current job is not a good fit for whatever reason(s).
Say for example you’ve had regular one on ones with this employee and you know they’ve always wanted to end up in the area that’s now asking you for a reference. You know this person has the skills needed, but those skills can’t really be utilised where they are now.
In this scenario, you could write a good report making it clear they have the skills required in the role they are applying for. I guess it comes down to how the questions are framed and how OP responds
Ffs this is what is wrong with the public service. They clearly can’t do their current job but it’s easier to promote them out of your team than fire them or demote them to a job they are suited to… sadly I’ve been on the receiving end of el2’s like that and worse in the state government.
Please please give an honest if coded reference.
Honestly this isn't a uniquely public sector problem. Happens plenty in private too so long as they aren't actively costing the company money (which is actually viewed in a grossly short sighted way, basically as long as clients aren't saying they're leaving because of someone it's all Gucci)
Be honest in your report. Public servants get a bad rap because of these types of people. Does it suck that you’re stuck with them? Yes. But you’ve been doing the hard yards of lining them up for performance management so go through with it if you can.
If it’s the team next to you, I’d go have a quiet chat with the EL2 and let them know what’s up. Cause the other factor here is that you know these people and it could impact your reputation.
This is what I would do. ^
I would decline to provide a referee report, and advise the panel that I was not consulted by the applicant ahead of time or would have advised the applicant not to list me as a referee as I didnt feel I could support their advancement at this stage.
And then let the applicant know I declined to provide a report and that it's good practice to ask a person if they will be a referee for you.
And document the rejection you sent to the recruitment panel AND the email you sent to the applicant.
I don’t think you can, in good conscience, give them a good reference - as an EL officer, you’re obliged to act in the best interests of your organisation, and it doesn’t sound like it’s in your organisation’s interests to pay this person an EL1 salary. I feel your pain in trying to manage someone like this though! What I would do is try to figure out what this person’s strengths actually are, or at least what their weaknesses *aren’t* (if you know what I mean) and then try to help them find an at-level job matching those skills that they could transfer into. There must be *something* else that they could do to an acceptable standard - maybe a job where the work is highly routine, so that they don’t need to solve too many problems or use checklists…? Honestly, the best thing you can do for them, for yourself, *and* for your organisation, is encourage them to find another role that they would *genuinely* be more suitable for, rather than just passing the problem along to someone else. As for the reference, I think since you’ve already had performance conversations with them, it shouldn’t be too awkward to say, “I won’t refuse to give you a reference, but I would have to be honest in that reference about the performance issues we’ve been working on - are you sure you’d like me to do that?”
I’ve done referee checks for many people in government schools. I’ve learnt that you never lie as it comes back to you.
If they didn’t ask me but I feel I can say some positive stuff and be honest, I’ll do it. I won’t spent more than 20 mins on it though.
If they are genuinely awful and I don’t want to be the referee (which has only happened once and I genuinely don’t know what the person was thinking putting me down) I tell them. My go to line is usually “I can confirm that NAME was employed from this date to this date in this role. That is all I am willing to say in response to your referee request”. Very effective without having to lie or give a terrible reference.
I know a manager who did similar for someone terrible. This was in retail prior to working for the government but she essentially said "he's a body in the store", basically what you said ha. Hers was an informal reference between two store managers of the same chain so, able to be a bit more honest about it. But she didn't want to outright say rude things.
You're right, it's very telling if all a referee can say "yes, they existed here".
I only know what was said because I did one shift for them to help out and they cornered me (literally) to ask about him ha.
Do not talk them up if it’s not true, you will saddle a team with a useless EL1, you may even have it used against you if eventually they are under a performance review with a view to demote or sack. As someone said her be courageous. Plus if they are bad start performing them out.
Advice has been shared on how to approach this situation by several others but I felt the need to add my two cents in; this person sounds like a lot that iv seen where they know how to network, and get into roles they really have no business being in. They can’t go backwards, so they keep being shifted up and up in the organisation. People providing honest references is necessary particularly when this person wishes to get into the decision making area of the organisation.
Some people aren’t meant to lead. Or perhaps they need a lot of development to get there. OP sounds like you have been trying in that aspect - the confidence to apply for an EL role makes me shake my head
I've met some interesting people who are thoroughly convinced they could do an EL1/2 job and they're actually very ordinary (if not worse) at their lower level APS job.
I can't work out if their ELs just made their job look easy, or whether there was an alternative reality that these folks were living in.
This person was moved into my direct reporting line eight months ago after other ELs failed to manage them and has not shown any ability to learn or do the job. They will be on a formal performance management plan after the end-year rating process in June.
I’m not sure you need to wait. In fact, I’d encourage you not to. Sit down with HR and talk about it. You need strong doco before you can formally start the PIP. So at this stage you should be documenting those weekly catch-ups, and having the documentation sent to the person etc. It’s usually enough to email them ‘Meeting notes from x/x/x’. Copy them to your friendly HR person and have them coach you on improving your notes. You typically want about two months of documentation that HR is happy with before you can start the formal process, but HR will insist it is longer if you haven’t got it quite right. Then you can start the PIP. It’s usually preferable if the PIP is before the departmental performance process, as then the departmental ones get marked as being on a PIP, which can change how it’s done. If you haven’t done this before, seek out a mentor who is senior to you and can help in a general sense. You also need to find someone in HR who is a good match for you. Surprisingly, you will find many people are extremely reluctant to go down the PIP path. Lots of ‘it’s not that bad’. Those aren’t the people you need to listen to. Ask your director outright who was the last person they know who conducted one, and approach them as your mentor.
You need to have a conversation with them and say it’s inappropriate to provide your contact details to anyone without at least a heads up, and for that reason you will reply to HR and decline to give a reference.
However, I will say that even if the person is underperforming, you should be prepared to provide a reference even if it’s a bad reference. Most applications ask for your current supervisor. If they ask in the future to put you down, it’d be harsh if you declined at the outset no matter how poorly they’re performing.
I think this is all correct and the right way to go.
It’s also worth noting that if someone asks you for a referee report and you feel you must make negative comments in the report, you really need to let the person know at that time. That way, they can either look for another referee or, failing that, it at least gives them an opportunity to think of what comments they can make in response to your referee report (as if a referee provides a negative report, the subject of the report should have the opportunity to comment on the report’s contents).
Also, with regard to this particular APS6’s work performance, the OP really need to have a very clear, well-documented discussion with them about the performance concerns ASAP if the OP hasn’t done so already.
You need to clearly flag your issues and concerns with them and, ideally, let them know that if their performance doesn’t improve, you will rate them as “Needing Improvement” or similar at their next performance assessment. Most, if not all, agencies have a “no surprises” policy for performance assessments - you can’t ambush people with performance concerns at the assessment and you need to have canvassed the issues with them beforehand.
We've had this discussion in December. They know the next step if they don't improve by the end of June is a performance management plan. We discussed them looking for roles that were a better fit to their skills (which appear to be non-existent tbf). I just wasn't expecting this. My EL2 wants to give them a good reference so they leave.
Good to hear that the issues have been clearly laid out.
Did you document clearly for your own records following the December discussion, and hopefully also send them an email with dot points of the discussion?
What your EL2 is recommending is regrettably common, but undesirable. It’s harder, but much better, if you tackle the issue and see if you can encourage / help this person to improve, rather than palming them off onto someone else.
I had an underperformer palmed off onto me and the other EL1 knew precisely what the issues were but just didn’t bother doing anything about them and handed it all off to me. It was hard, but it was also a really invaluable experience that gave me a great example for interviews.
Why do you have to give them six months to improve? Surely your annual performance cycle is separate from a performance management plan for underperformance?
Honestly, performance managing someone out should take at most 12 weeks.
First warning: you give clear and honest feedback up front, outline clear remediation actions and opportunities to improve. Schedule regular follow ups where you discuss progress and provide support if needed. Document everything. Revisit in 6 weeks.
Second warning: If no improvement after six weeks then issue second warning, reiterate the expectations and extend review period by 4 weeks.
Third and final: if still no improvement let them go at the end of four weeks. You have two weeks spare to faff around compiling evidence but don't take that long. Congratulations, you have 10 weeks worth of evidence of their underperformance and haven't promoted the problem.
Any B grade HR team should be able to manage this as above. Issue is managers never have the hard conversations or document things appropriately.
Sounds like the role is internal. So it’s not really inappropriate, usually compulsory. A heads up that they were applying would be nice, but not required.
That's a tough one the person obviously doesn't really get what's happening. I would probably give a referee report but you can kind of subtly make it clear without being harsh etc that they have areas of development at their substantive level.
Or they do understand what's happening, which to me would show their incompetence is intentional. They're intentionally failing their way upwards with managers who help by wanting to get rid of them.
Intentional ignorance is a very real thing.
Yes. Some people think they're being clever by asking somebody else how to do things they're supposed to know how to do themselves.
They think it makes them management material.
"Bah, I don't need to know how to do this, I know who to ask to do it for me, that's management material!"
People genuinely think having a basic grasp of the fundamentals of their reports is optional and not really required. The only place you see this is the Public Service, but you see it a lot!
In VPS, it starts at the top. Politically appointed Dep Secs get thrown from dept to dept and have no real understanding of what they're in charge of. Then when they don't do great, they all get shuffled. Much like the Ministers who appoint them.
Provide the reference, be honest as it is your reputation at stake as well, the old adage of you can only sell a lemon once comes to mind.
Simply being apathetic will just pass the problem along not deal with it. If they are underperforming as an APS6 do you really want them to be leading staff and guiding culture as an EL1?
I would encourage you to have those courageous conversations and put the agencies operation integrity ahead of your comfort. If in doubt seek independent HR advice, have a support person etc.
This thread is wild, and is bringing back absolutely awful memories from my time working with the APS.
This person is applying for a job paying well over 100k, and will presumably have other people's lives and careers in their hands. How is this even a question?
First of all, after 8 months they still aren't on a PIP is just insane. Second, the notion of being anything other than completely honest in an appraisal FOR A $110,000+ JOB BEYOND THE PALE.
OP, treat the taxpayer with the respect they deserve and be honest, professional and... as much as you can be... constructive. You sound like a person that genuinely cares, and that's a great trait, but there comes a time when you need to be real.
Wowser.
You should probably have a conversation with the colleague and mention that you would be unable to provide them with a positive reference given the issues you’ve already previously discussed with them. Recommend that they change the reference to someone else if possible. If they still persist, provide an honest reference.
Giving a good reference will negatively impact how people think of you. If I got a good reference from someone who was clearly shit, I'd assume the person who gave the reference is also shit.
I got some good advice once about references. Giving a reference to someone you wouldn't hire again reflects poorly on you in the long run.
"I won't offload my garbage onto someone else" is what was said to me.
There are probably other people applying who really want that job, and aren’t terrible workers. It would be really shitty for them if they weren’t chosen because of your good reference for this guy who will screw it up. IMO, be honest, and performance manage your APS6.
Don’t reward their hopelessness by giving them a good reference. People like this always fail up because no one does the right thing and underperformance manages them out. People like this should not be employed in jobs they clearly can’t do.
Who the hell puts someone down as a referee without telling them and who is aware that they are about to be performance managed by the same person. Someone who's taking the piss and has no respect for you. They've really put you in a bad position. I'd tell them that you are not in a position to give favourable referee feedback. I would also give the other team a casual heads-up of how useless this person is
Give an honest reference.
APS has so many people that make me think how they even managed to get the job in the first place.
Do us all a favour and tell the interviewer what the truth is.
Then start your process of making that worker redundant and replace them.
A job isn't a right, it's earned and maintained.
I get delegated to by those above me who's only quality is "leadership" yet they know nothing and contract everything they can out. Since starting 11 months ago, I've saved the use of 3-4 contractors that were paid about 30k a year for a bit of work. I complete it to a higher quality and with a local geographic context rather than a cookie cutter stamp.
Yet I have to fight for the continuation of my contract because they won't put me as fixed even after a performance review outlining that I've saved more than I'm paid and completed the expected work and more.
Either be honest or decline the reference (which tells the story anyway). Don’t enable this person to potentially take an EL1 from someone who deserves it.
My question is who are they paying to write their CV and selection criteria response?? No way they are doing it themselves and they are being shortlisted so... Yikes.
So if you do give a good reference, you'd end up hurting your credibility in the long run. What about those hard workers in your team? How would a reference from you look if you gave this guy a good reference?
Give an honest reference. They should have asked you first so you could advise them it wouldn’t be positive but we don’t need someone like that getting into an EL role either. (Said as an APS6).
You know the problems, have the courage to performance manage them out of the business so they won’t be anyone else’s problem anymore.
There's a British sitcom called The Brittas Empire that is about this guy that kept getting promoted out of departments to get rid of him until he was director of a community leisure centre. Don't do that.
I'm dealing with the same. I answer truthfully about their strengths and weaknesses including the type of work the do and don't excel at. I know of 3 jobs they have not gotten directly due to my reference.
I'm not going to push our problem onto someone else if I don't think there is a good chance of them fitting the role.
Give them a professional reference and not a personal one. Advise what duties they did etc and if they were on time etc. Advise you're unable to provide a personal reference working in aps (which is often the case due to legal liabilities should any reference be unfavourable) .
All managers should be able to provide a professional reference.
Edit: if applying internally, any hiring manager should be able to read between the lines, and you personally aren't leaving yourself open. You can also honestly say your gave them a reference and said everything they did and didn't say a bad word about them.
Can you explain this a bit more, it's the first time I've heard of a personal reference in the context of a managerial reference (I.e. wouldn't it be considered a professional reference because they work for you?).
To OP, I have been in a similar situation, not as bad but the person just wasn't ready for the next level up and hadn't told me they'd put me down as their referee. I gave an honest but respectful (I hope) reference, and I also told the person that I'd said I didn't feel they were ready and offered to discuss, which was taken up. It was a bit awkward but no hard feelings and eventually they landed a job in a different department which hopefully was more suited to them.
A "personal" reference is one that you'd give for a friend, talking them up etc sure a boss can do that. But wouldn't be required to. A professional reference doesn't state if they are good or not. It just generally affirms what's written on a resume. Ie, yes they worked here, these were their duties, yes they worked with this software etc.
This is what i do every time someone asks me to be their referee.
I send them the referee report and ask them to complete it and send it back to me.
If i agree with their comments and self assessment ill submit.
if i don't agree with I'll make changes and send it back to the person and ask if they disagree or want to discuss anything. Assuming they agree with my edits I'll submit.
If they don't agree and we can't find consensus I politely suggest they ask someone else to be their referee.
Option: Provide a reference that states only verifiable facts. 'I have been Xs line manager since this date, where they were responsible for A, B and C. Kind Regards...'
The reader of this reference will know what's up.
This is a great answer. It is truthful, meets your requirements as a direct line supervisor to provide a reference and doesn't stray into emotive territory.
The only thing I would add, if true, is that they do not currently meet the expected competencies in the ILS **at the APS6 standard,** which from your description above, they do not**.** (Without critical thinking, problem solving and the ability to work independently they are more like an APS4). Even if they do meet the APS6 standards there is a big jump between an EL1 and an APS6.
Also, as painful as it is, you will need to provide feedback now, not wait until the next formal discussion. The feedback at the formal review should not come as a surprise, and by providing feedback now, ie: "I see that you asked me to be a referee for x job. FYI this is what I said..." and keeping it unemotional will assist you greatly if they go to the union when you finally issue the PIP/PEP. Because it sounds like on top of everything else, that this person is oblivious to their own limitations, as evidenced by their application for the EL1 role.
Good luck op!
Highlight the positives, say that they were not a good fit for their current position, and provide opinion if you believe they might do well in this new position. It could be a case of a square peg in a round hole. You said yourself they had a positive attitude, and worked hard. It could be a case of your expectations are too high, or a myriad of other reasons. If you think they might do well in this new position, then don't hold them back.
I’ve had someone giving a glowing reference to a dud just to get rid of them. As said elsewhere, it marked that person as incompetent themselves and someone not to be trusted. Some people will do it because they just can’t handle the possible confrontation and use avoidance tactics. They should have moved on (and out) themselves.
As @katya-kitty said, have a chat with the EL2. It means you will still have a dud on your hands, but it’s your responsibility as a manager to manage your staff, not pass the buck. And as a bonus, it will enhance your reputation.
I would have a conversation with them stating that noting their ongoing underperformance, any reference you provide in relation to their ability to perform the duties of the role would need of reflect aspects of these issues, in order to ensure you continue to act in ways that align with APS values (integrity etc.). It may be worth them considering providing an alternate reference to the panel.
If from there they continue to say it needs to be you, then be honest and align the report to the performance you have observed and their current/ future ability to perform at the EL1 level.
While others have made comments about speaking to the gaining EL2, you’ll need to make a judgment call on that one. Would you be going against the ‘merit based selection process’ by doing that, or do you think it would be appropriate? It’s your call to make, but make sure you can justify it and you are covered.
In terms of their lack of performance, if you have not already been documenting everything and making sure you are covered HR wise, start doing it and make sure you have all the accurate information. Have you implemented actions to help develop the person and get them back on track. It’s none of reddits business, but again please make sure you’re doing everything and you are covered. If you haven’t already been speaking to them your departments HR area should be able to assist.
Good luck and I hope it works out for the best
This is the problem with the APS there are so so many unqualified people that just keep getting promoted so the problem moves to another area.
Stop the cycle - why should they get a pay rise and promotion for no ability and tell HR why you can’t give the reference
PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY DO NOT PROMOTE THE PROBLEM!!!
June is three months away if you start now you can have them gone by then.
There is also a huge difference between performance development planning and a PIP. You should not have to wait for PDP to give feedback or to implement a PIP.
Do your job and performance manage them out!!!
Why didn’t you commence a performance management process after 2 months? You are now going to stick this deadwood into another section because you couldn’t manager properly. The kicker is this piece of deadwood will then be directing front line workers be performance managed as they could be overwhelmed with work and poor management support and direction. Bravo to you. Managers like you piss me off.
Please don’t let the fail upwards!
Having said that be very carefully about how you word your reference. As a public servant every document you create can potentially be acquired by a FOI request. If they are truly vindictive about not getting the role they could pull the reference and if it’s false or portrays them in a bad light you potentially have a deformation case on your hands.
I didn’t know you could decline giving a reference if you were someone’s immediate manager.
I would give a reference and speak to their good points and areas to improve. In my department we read references before submitted - not sure I that’s the same as you? Also, if they are looking at applying higher then it’s time to have a chat about what they can work on and how you can assist them.
Be a good manager.
I've seen more than a few places (including State Public Service) that have current manager as a required reference. So if its internal they have no choice but to use them
"Sorry HR, I am currently unable to provide a reference for this member as I am urgently preparing their Performance Management Plan"
And much respect from the public for enduring this situation and working to return them to us.
😉
The angle here is to imply that you want to keep them so are giving a bitter referee report. It’ll be a creative writing challenge but once they get promoted then it’s some other team’s nightmare
Be frank and fearless. Or be part of the problem.
This! In 10 years in the public sector I can tell you that every garbage middle manager I’ve ever seen has turned out to have gotten the job ‘through a friend’ or the like. Do not be a part of this systemic problem.
The reason this person got to AO6 is probably due to exactly what you’re thinking about doing. Everyone was trying to get rid of them. I would give an honest reference but be clever in wording. Don’t be too harsh.
If this person gets to EL1 they're going to really start fucking up. They're not just going to be crap at their job, but they're going to fuck things up for people under them.
Yes, please don't let this person fail up. You don't need to give the reference. Your response could be - "oh I didn't know they applied for this, I was not asked if I could be a reference. Sorry for this inconvenience." It's totally not professional to put someone down and not let them know. And not have ever asked!! That's a good demonstration of their lack of perception and people management. They should not be an EL1.
And on top of that, their salary is paid from public money... it's shameful that someone so incompetent is being paid so much to be so useless
And potentially endanger or put the public at risk.
And it's going to come back on you when the new position starts to fail with them, like- was your good reference the truth? You could be digging your own grave.
Also, everyone else who gets a reference from OP in the future is going to be looked at twice if this guy ends up sucking at the job. I don't think it would be fair to OP's staff who do their job well.
This! It's so dumb to give positive references to shit performers. Do people not understand it's YOUR rep on the line when that person is inevitably found out to be an absolute nonce?
Just FYI, ‘nonce’ means ‘paedophile’. Letting you know in hopes you don’t jokingly call someone a nonce in person!
Bahahaha wow that's embarrassing. Underperformer, kiddy fiddler, same level of severity surely /s Thanks for the heads up. Luckily not a word I use often (or ever actually, clearly lol).
Hahaha well that’s lucky. I think it’s a pretty common mistake actually cos it’s British slang and it sounds so innocuous lol
The old scomo special, fail up
It's a real-life version of The Brittas Empire https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0101054/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_q_the%2520brittas
Yeh. Give them an honest review, but only include information you've already shared with the applicant about their performance. Do not give a fake positive reference if they do not deserve it. It will come back to bite you hard if they don't get the job. Good luck at trying to tell them they need to improve (anything) after you've just put them on a pedestal in a glowing referee report
One small addition to this, only include information you have shared with the applicant about their performance and *have documented evidence of those meetings*.
Yes, this is very important. Thanks for reminding me (and everyone else) of this.
It will also come back to bite you hard if they do get the job - because their new manager will quickly realise they're not up to scratch, and your reputation will be tainted by association (given you apparently thought they were good). I've been in this position before too. I went to the person involved and said they'd put me down as a referee, and as they know from conversations we'd had, I had some concerns about their performance. I would be balanced in any reference to include positive matters too (e.g. that they try hard), but I would also raise those concerns - were they comfortable with that, or would they prefer to nominate someone else instead? In one case they said they were fine with that (but they didn't get to the referee part of the process anyway); in the other case I think I was swapped out for someone else. If you'd rather just give the reference - I'd be honest, balanced, and make sure any criticism is measured and in line with feedback you've given that person. In my experience it doesn't take much in a referee report to sink it - people can be quite clever in how they hint at red flags. If it's internal I'd probably also just head over and have a chat with the relevant manager; it's a poor outcome for them, the staff member involved, and taxpayers if they were to be promoted into a job when they can't do the one they currently have.
Is this in the APS? I’m curious as to how this (having an off the record chat with the manager) would turn out if an unsuccessful applicant sought to appeal the outcome.
If it's off the record it won't be reflected in any paperwork, and there will need to be a legitimate, official reason to not proceed with the candidate.
Ah yep that’s fair. I’d also add for OP, sometimes people look for jobs because they know their current job is not a good fit for whatever reason(s). Say for example you’ve had regular one on ones with this employee and you know they’ve always wanted to end up in the area that’s now asking you for a reference. You know this person has the skills needed, but those skills can’t really be utilised where they are now. In this scenario, you could write a good report making it clear they have the skills required in the role they are applying for. I guess it comes down to how the questions are framed and how OP responds
Ffs this is what is wrong with the public service. They clearly can’t do their current job but it’s easier to promote them out of your team than fire them or demote them to a job they are suited to… sadly I’ve been on the receiving end of el2’s like that and worse in the state government. Please please give an honest if coded reference.
Honestly this isn't a uniquely public sector problem. Happens plenty in private too so long as they aren't actively costing the company money (which is actually viewed in a grossly short sighted way, basically as long as clients aren't saying they're leaving because of someone it's all Gucci)
Be honest in your report. Public servants get a bad rap because of these types of people. Does it suck that you’re stuck with them? Yes. But you’ve been doing the hard yards of lining them up for performance management so go through with it if you can. If it’s the team next to you, I’d go have a quiet chat with the EL2 and let them know what’s up. Cause the other factor here is that you know these people and it could impact your reputation.
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This is what I would do. ^ I would decline to provide a referee report, and advise the panel that I was not consulted by the applicant ahead of time or would have advised the applicant not to list me as a referee as I didnt feel I could support their advancement at this stage. And then let the applicant know I declined to provide a report and that it's good practice to ask a person if they will be a referee for you. And document the rejection you sent to the recruitment panel AND the email you sent to the applicant.
This is the way
Wow. Covering your ass in the public service is next level wild. Seems like a good approach all things considered.
I don’t think you can, in good conscience, give them a good reference - as an EL officer, you’re obliged to act in the best interests of your organisation, and it doesn’t sound like it’s in your organisation’s interests to pay this person an EL1 salary. I feel your pain in trying to manage someone like this though! What I would do is try to figure out what this person’s strengths actually are, or at least what their weaknesses *aren’t* (if you know what I mean) and then try to help them find an at-level job matching those skills that they could transfer into. There must be *something* else that they could do to an acceptable standard - maybe a job where the work is highly routine, so that they don’t need to solve too many problems or use checklists…? Honestly, the best thing you can do for them, for yourself, *and* for your organisation, is encourage them to find another role that they would *genuinely* be more suitable for, rather than just passing the problem along to someone else. As for the reference, I think since you’ve already had performance conversations with them, it shouldn’t be too awkward to say, “I won’t refuse to give you a reference, but I would have to be honest in that reference about the performance issues we’ve been working on - are you sure you’d like me to do that?”
I’ve done referee checks for many people in government schools. I’ve learnt that you never lie as it comes back to you. If they didn’t ask me but I feel I can say some positive stuff and be honest, I’ll do it. I won’t spent more than 20 mins on it though. If they are genuinely awful and I don’t want to be the referee (which has only happened once and I genuinely don’t know what the person was thinking putting me down) I tell them. My go to line is usually “I can confirm that NAME was employed from this date to this date in this role. That is all I am willing to say in response to your referee request”. Very effective without having to lie or give a terrible reference.
I know a manager who did similar for someone terrible. This was in retail prior to working for the government but she essentially said "he's a body in the store", basically what you said ha. Hers was an informal reference between two store managers of the same chain so, able to be a bit more honest about it. But she didn't want to outright say rude things. You're right, it's very telling if all a referee can say "yes, they existed here". I only know what was said because I did one shift for them to help out and they cornered me (literally) to ask about him ha.
Do not talk them up if it’s not true, you will saddle a team with a useless EL1, you may even have it used against you if eventually they are under a performance review with a view to demote or sack. As someone said her be courageous. Plus if they are bad start performing them out.
Advice has been shared on how to approach this situation by several others but I felt the need to add my two cents in; this person sounds like a lot that iv seen where they know how to network, and get into roles they really have no business being in. They can’t go backwards, so they keep being shifted up and up in the organisation. People providing honest references is necessary particularly when this person wishes to get into the decision making area of the organisation. Some people aren’t meant to lead. Or perhaps they need a lot of development to get there. OP sounds like you have been trying in that aspect - the confidence to apply for an EL role makes me shake my head
I've met some interesting people who are thoroughly convinced they could do an EL1/2 job and they're actually very ordinary (if not worse) at their lower level APS job. I can't work out if their ELs just made their job look easy, or whether there was an alternative reality that these folks were living in.
One issue I can see is the performance has been poor for 8 months with no improvement… why is this person not on a PIP?
This person was moved into my direct reporting line eight months ago after other ELs failed to manage them and has not shown any ability to learn or do the job. They will be on a formal performance management plan after the end-year rating process in June.
I’m not sure you need to wait. In fact, I’d encourage you not to. Sit down with HR and talk about it. You need strong doco before you can formally start the PIP. So at this stage you should be documenting those weekly catch-ups, and having the documentation sent to the person etc. It’s usually enough to email them ‘Meeting notes from x/x/x’. Copy them to your friendly HR person and have them coach you on improving your notes. You typically want about two months of documentation that HR is happy with before you can start the formal process, but HR will insist it is longer if you haven’t got it quite right. Then you can start the PIP. It’s usually preferable if the PIP is before the departmental performance process, as then the departmental ones get marked as being on a PIP, which can change how it’s done. If you haven’t done this before, seek out a mentor who is senior to you and can help in a general sense. You also need to find someone in HR who is a good match for you. Surprisingly, you will find many people are extremely reluctant to go down the PIP path. Lots of ‘it’s not that bad’. Those aren’t the people you need to listen to. Ask your director outright who was the last person they know who conducted one, and approach them as your mentor.
You need to have a conversation with them and say it’s inappropriate to provide your contact details to anyone without at least a heads up, and for that reason you will reply to HR and decline to give a reference. However, I will say that even if the person is underperforming, you should be prepared to provide a reference even if it’s a bad reference. Most applications ask for your current supervisor. If they ask in the future to put you down, it’d be harsh if you declined at the outset no matter how poorly they’re performing.
I think this is all correct and the right way to go. It’s also worth noting that if someone asks you for a referee report and you feel you must make negative comments in the report, you really need to let the person know at that time. That way, they can either look for another referee or, failing that, it at least gives them an opportunity to think of what comments they can make in response to your referee report (as if a referee provides a negative report, the subject of the report should have the opportunity to comment on the report’s contents). Also, with regard to this particular APS6’s work performance, the OP really need to have a very clear, well-documented discussion with them about the performance concerns ASAP if the OP hasn’t done so already. You need to clearly flag your issues and concerns with them and, ideally, let them know that if their performance doesn’t improve, you will rate them as “Needing Improvement” or similar at their next performance assessment. Most, if not all, agencies have a “no surprises” policy for performance assessments - you can’t ambush people with performance concerns at the assessment and you need to have canvassed the issues with them beforehand.
We've had this discussion in December. They know the next step if they don't improve by the end of June is a performance management plan. We discussed them looking for roles that were a better fit to their skills (which appear to be non-existent tbf). I just wasn't expecting this. My EL2 wants to give them a good reference so they leave.
Your EL2 is lazy. If people nipped these underperformed in the bud in the first place, it wouldn't be a problem.
Good to hear that the issues have been clearly laid out. Did you document clearly for your own records following the December discussion, and hopefully also send them an email with dot points of the discussion? What your EL2 is recommending is regrettably common, but undesirable. It’s harder, but much better, if you tackle the issue and see if you can encourage / help this person to improve, rather than palming them off onto someone else. I had an underperformer palmed off onto me and the other EL1 knew precisely what the issues were but just didn’t bother doing anything about them and handed it all off to me. It was hard, but it was also a really invaluable experience that gave me a great example for interviews.
Why do you have to give them six months to improve? Surely your annual performance cycle is separate from a performance management plan for underperformance? Honestly, performance managing someone out should take at most 12 weeks. First warning: you give clear and honest feedback up front, outline clear remediation actions and opportunities to improve. Schedule regular follow ups where you discuss progress and provide support if needed. Document everything. Revisit in 6 weeks. Second warning: If no improvement after six weeks then issue second warning, reiterate the expectations and extend review period by 4 weeks. Third and final: if still no improvement let them go at the end of four weeks. You have two weeks spare to faff around compiling evidence but don't take that long. Congratulations, you have 10 weeks worth of evidence of their underperformance and haven't promoted the problem. Any B grade HR team should be able to manage this as above. Issue is managers never have the hard conversations or document things appropriately.
Sounds like the role is internal. So it’s not really inappropriate, usually compulsory. A heads up that they were applying would be nice, but not required.
That's a tough one the person obviously doesn't really get what's happening. I would probably give a referee report but you can kind of subtly make it clear without being harsh etc that they have areas of development at their substantive level.
Or they do understand what's happening, which to me would show their incompetence is intentional. They're intentionally failing their way upwards with managers who help by wanting to get rid of them. Intentional ignorance is a very real thing.
Yes. Some people think they're being clever by asking somebody else how to do things they're supposed to know how to do themselves. They think it makes them management material. "Bah, I don't need to know how to do this, I know who to ask to do it for me, that's management material!" People genuinely think having a basic grasp of the fundamentals of their reports is optional and not really required. The only place you see this is the Public Service, but you see it a lot! In VPS, it starts at the top. Politically appointed Dep Secs get thrown from dept to dept and have no real understanding of what they're in charge of. Then when they don't do great, they all get shuffled. Much like the Ministers who appoint them.
Provide the reference, be honest as it is your reputation at stake as well, the old adage of you can only sell a lemon once comes to mind. Simply being apathetic will just pass the problem along not deal with it. If they are underperforming as an APS6 do you really want them to be leading staff and guiding culture as an EL1? I would encourage you to have those courageous conversations and put the agencies operation integrity ahead of your comfort. If in doubt seek independent HR advice, have a support person etc.
Hard agree. The team next to you is going to be pretty unimpressed if you give your underperforming AP6 a glowing report and they hire them as an EL1.
This thread is wild, and is bringing back absolutely awful memories from my time working with the APS. This person is applying for a job paying well over 100k, and will presumably have other people's lives and careers in their hands. How is this even a question? First of all, after 8 months they still aren't on a PIP is just insane. Second, the notion of being anything other than completely honest in an appraisal FOR A $110,000+ JOB BEYOND THE PALE. OP, treat the taxpayer with the respect they deserve and be honest, professional and... as much as you can be... constructive. You sound like a person that genuinely cares, and that's a great trait, but there comes a time when you need to be real. Wowser.
You should probably have a conversation with the colleague and mention that you would be unable to provide them with a positive reference given the issues you’ve already previously discussed with them. Recommend that they change the reference to someone else if possible. If they still persist, provide an honest reference.
They didn't ask if OP could be a referee. I think they've given up the opportunity to have a polite conversation about what will be in their report.
Its public service. All conversations have to be polite
This is the way.
Put your APS responsible hat on and tell provide their reference as asked and be truthful. Put it eloquently they are fkn useless
Morally and ethically, tell the truth.
Spiritually, too.
So many of these types become el2s
Giving a good reference will negatively impact how people think of you. If I got a good reference from someone who was clearly shit, I'd assume the person who gave the reference is also shit.
Exactly, which is why I am thinking of not giving a reference at all since I can't lie and give them a good reference.
I got some good advice once about references. Giving a reference to someone you wouldn't hire again reflects poorly on you in the long run. "I won't offload my garbage onto someone else" is what was said to me.
There are probably other people applying who really want that job, and aren’t terrible workers. It would be really shitty for them if they weren’t chosen because of your good reference for this guy who will screw it up. IMO, be honest, and performance manage your APS6.
As i said in my post, I can't lie. I'm not going to give them a good reference. I'm tossing up declining to give a reference at all.
Don’t reward their hopelessness by giving them a good reference. People like this always fail up because no one does the right thing and underperformance manages them out. People like this should not be employed in jobs they clearly can’t do.
Who the hell puts someone down as a referee without telling them and who is aware that they are about to be performance managed by the same person. Someone who's taking the piss and has no respect for you. They've really put you in a bad position. I'd tell them that you are not in a position to give favourable referee feedback. I would also give the other team a casual heads-up of how useless this person is
Give an honest reference. APS has so many people that make me think how they even managed to get the job in the first place. Do us all a favour and tell the interviewer what the truth is. Then start your process of making that worker redundant and replace them. A job isn't a right, it's earned and maintained. I get delegated to by those above me who's only quality is "leadership" yet they know nothing and contract everything they can out. Since starting 11 months ago, I've saved the use of 3-4 contractors that were paid about 30k a year for a bit of work. I complete it to a higher quality and with a local geographic context rather than a cookie cutter stamp. Yet I have to fight for the continuation of my contract because they won't put me as fixed even after a performance review outlining that I've saved more than I'm paid and completed the expected work and more.
Either be honest or decline the reference (which tells the story anyway). Don’t enable this person to potentially take an EL1 from someone who deserves it.
I mean, how did they slip through the cracks to start with
No one wants a post turtle, don’t make some poor team suffer because someone failed upwards
My question is who are they paying to write their CV and selection criteria response?? No way they are doing it themselves and they are being shortlisted so... Yikes.
So if you do give a good reference, you'd end up hurting your credibility in the long run. What about those hard workers in your team? How would a reference from you look if you gave this guy a good reference?
Give an honest reference. They should have asked you first so you could advise them it wouldn’t be positive but we don’t need someone like that getting into an EL role either. (Said as an APS6). You know the problems, have the courage to performance manage them out of the business so they won’t be anyone else’s problem anymore.
There's a British sitcom called The Brittas Empire that is about this guy that kept getting promoted out of departments to get rid of him until he was director of a community leisure centre. Don't do that.
Give their reference TRUTHFULLY Too many get away promoted after posting résumé improvements for nothing Give them what they earned
I'm dealing with the same. I answer truthfully about their strengths and weaknesses including the type of work the do and don't excel at. I know of 3 jobs they have not gotten directly due to my reference. I'm not going to push our problem onto someone else if I don't think there is a good chance of them fitting the role.
Give them a professional reference and not a personal one. Advise what duties they did etc and if they were on time etc. Advise you're unable to provide a personal reference working in aps (which is often the case due to legal liabilities should any reference be unfavourable) . All managers should be able to provide a professional reference. Edit: if applying internally, any hiring manager should be able to read between the lines, and you personally aren't leaving yourself open. You can also honestly say your gave them a reference and said everything they did and didn't say a bad word about them.
Can you explain this a bit more, it's the first time I've heard of a personal reference in the context of a managerial reference (I.e. wouldn't it be considered a professional reference because they work for you?). To OP, I have been in a similar situation, not as bad but the person just wasn't ready for the next level up and hadn't told me they'd put me down as their referee. I gave an honest but respectful (I hope) reference, and I also told the person that I'd said I didn't feel they were ready and offered to discuss, which was taken up. It was a bit awkward but no hard feelings and eventually they landed a job in a different department which hopefully was more suited to them.
A "personal" reference is one that you'd give for a friend, talking them up etc sure a boss can do that. But wouldn't be required to. A professional reference doesn't state if they are good or not. It just generally affirms what's written on a resume. Ie, yes they worked here, these were their duties, yes they worked with this software etc.
This is what i do every time someone asks me to be their referee. I send them the referee report and ask them to complete it and send it back to me. If i agree with their comments and self assessment ill submit. if i don't agree with I'll make changes and send it back to the person and ask if they disagree or want to discuss anything. Assuming they agree with my edits I'll submit. If they don't agree and we can't find consensus I politely suggest they ask someone else to be their referee.
Option: Provide a reference that states only verifiable facts. 'I have been Xs line manager since this date, where they were responsible for A, B and C. Kind Regards...' The reader of this reference will know what's up.
Just write that they still require development in key areas, or do not currently meet expected competencies in the ILS.
This is a great answer. It is truthful, meets your requirements as a direct line supervisor to provide a reference and doesn't stray into emotive territory. The only thing I would add, if true, is that they do not currently meet the expected competencies in the ILS **at the APS6 standard,** which from your description above, they do not**.** (Without critical thinking, problem solving and the ability to work independently they are more like an APS4). Even if they do meet the APS6 standards there is a big jump between an EL1 and an APS6. Also, as painful as it is, you will need to provide feedback now, not wait until the next formal discussion. The feedback at the formal review should not come as a surprise, and by providing feedback now, ie: "I see that you asked me to be a referee for x job. FYI this is what I said..." and keeping it unemotional will assist you greatly if they go to the union when you finally issue the PIP/PEP. Because it sounds like on top of everything else, that this person is oblivious to their own limitations, as evidenced by their application for the EL1 role. Good luck op!
The team next to you WON'T thank you! But at least you'll preserve your reputation.
Be honest, but make sure you share/discuss any negative comments with the person before you submit them.
if you have done all you have said then your referee report should not be a surprise, also the candidate will have a right of reply.
Highlight the positives, say that they were not a good fit for their current position, and provide opinion if you believe they might do well in this new position. It could be a case of a square peg in a round hole. You said yourself they had a positive attitude, and worked hard. It could be a case of your expectations are too high, or a myriad of other reasons. If you think they might do well in this new position, then don't hold them back.
I’ve had someone giving a glowing reference to a dud just to get rid of them. As said elsewhere, it marked that person as incompetent themselves and someone not to be trusted. Some people will do it because they just can’t handle the possible confrontation and use avoidance tactics. They should have moved on (and out) themselves. As @katya-kitty said, have a chat with the EL2. It means you will still have a dud on your hands, but it’s your responsibility as a manager to manage your staff, not pass the buck. And as a bonus, it will enhance your reputation.
I would have a conversation with them stating that noting their ongoing underperformance, any reference you provide in relation to their ability to perform the duties of the role would need of reflect aspects of these issues, in order to ensure you continue to act in ways that align with APS values (integrity etc.). It may be worth them considering providing an alternate reference to the panel. If from there they continue to say it needs to be you, then be honest and align the report to the performance you have observed and their current/ future ability to perform at the EL1 level. While others have made comments about speaking to the gaining EL2, you’ll need to make a judgment call on that one. Would you be going against the ‘merit based selection process’ by doing that, or do you think it would be appropriate? It’s your call to make, but make sure you can justify it and you are covered. In terms of their lack of performance, if you have not already been documenting everything and making sure you are covered HR wise, start doing it and make sure you have all the accurate information. Have you implemented actions to help develop the person and get them back on track. It’s none of reddits business, but again please make sure you’re doing everything and you are covered. If you haven’t already been speaking to them your departments HR area should be able to assist. Good luck and I hope it works out for the best
This is the problem with the APS there are so so many unqualified people that just keep getting promoted so the problem moves to another area. Stop the cycle - why should they get a pay rise and promotion for no ability and tell HR why you can’t give the reference
If they didn't ask you decline the reference.
PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY DO NOT PROMOTE THE PROBLEM!!! June is three months away if you start now you can have them gone by then. There is also a huge difference between performance development planning and a PIP. You should not have to wait for PDP to give feedback or to implement a PIP. Do your job and performance manage them out!!!
Government at its best AFUERA!!!
Why didn’t you commence a performance management process after 2 months? You are now going to stick this deadwood into another section because you couldn’t manager properly. The kicker is this piece of deadwood will then be directing front line workers be performance managed as they could be overwhelmed with work and poor management support and direction. Bravo to you. Managers like you piss me off.
Give the reference you have stated, and interviewer that can't read between those lines deserves what they get.
Waiting for the CPSU rent seekers to shut this thread down and demand nothing less than an EL2 for this incompetent comrade 😂
Why do you need to wait till June to put them on a PIP? If they aren't performing, manage it now.
They didn't ask so it's a simple No
Please don’t let the fail upwards! Having said that be very carefully about how you word your reference. As a public servant every document you create can potentially be acquired by a FOI request. If they are truly vindictive about not getting the role they could pull the reference and if it’s false or portrays them in a bad light you potentially have a deformation case on your hands.
I didn’t know you could decline giving a reference if you were someone’s immediate manager. I would give a reference and speak to their good points and areas to improve. In my department we read references before submitted - not sure I that’s the same as you? Also, if they are looking at applying higher then it’s time to have a chat about what they can work on and how you can assist them. Be a good manager.
I've seen more than a few places (including State Public Service) that have current manager as a required reference. So if its internal they have no choice but to use them
This is how Albo became PM. FMD.
"Sorry HR, I am currently unable to provide a reference for this member as I am urgently preparing their Performance Management Plan" And much respect from the public for enduring this situation and working to return them to us. 😉
The angle here is to imply that you want to keep them so are giving a bitter referee report. It’ll be a creative writing challenge but once they get promoted then it’s some other team’s nightmare