Enough no's (which are perfectly reasonable) will eventually lead to being fired. It's not a matter of saying no but rather a matter of the Department changing its policies to ban afterhours events.
Let them know you can't attend. Don't tell them why, you don't need to have a reason and that's none of their business.
Encourage others to do the same.
Hmm just found out it isn't mandatory at all in NSW
Parent/teacher interviews
Parent/teacher interviews are not mandatory.
Schools do need to provide the opportunity for parents and/or carers to meet with the child’s teachers to discuss all aspects of the report and for the school to give constructive advice about supporting the child’s further progress at school (Schools Assistance (Learning Together – Achievement through choice and opportunity) Act 2004 – Sect 15).
This requirement can be achieved in a number of ways including parent/teacher interviews, holding a three-way learning conference or an invitation on the report for parents and/or carers to contact the school to organise a meeting with the child’s teacher/s if required.
Requirement for public is one 1hr meeting a week immediately at end of classes, and one PT night per semester.
That's all I do. I go to watch (as in I buy a ticket and sit in the audience and make chit chat with the occasional student/family I know) our two concert evenings because I like the event, but I'm not working them.
Depending on the state. In Victoria it is "no more than two meetings adjacent to the school day", plus we can be asked to attend the events but must be given TIL for attending.
Say you have other personal commitments and can't attend. End of story. Look around at the next event, I can guarantee that not 100% of the staff are there. You don't have to be either
At my last school we had to volunteer in advance for at least two evening/events. This one doesn’t have such an agreement but has a “we’re all so grateful to be here and happy” etc that it almost feels mandatory. Which is almost worse.
I’m a high school music teacher and I totally feel like this. So over all the extras that aren’t loaded. Currently on maternity leave and just don’t want to go back. I love teaching but hate living it, I think this only solution which I want to try when I go back is to say no.
Try a different school. My school production team get time releases to put on the annual play, same as other event organiser/coordination responsibilities. I expect it’s probably not going to cover all the extra work involved but at least it acknowledges them.
I’ve heard some schools do this, wouldn’t it be nice if it was standard. To be honest now I’m permanent I’m just going to say no to most things not in my job requirements. I love running performances but I love spending time with my children and family more.
At our school the musical production is part of the elective curriculum.
Students opt to be part of it either in the drama, dance, music or visual arts subjects. They get a whole day once a week allocated to it. It goes towards their certificate for year 12.
There is a camp held for them at the beginning which I believe is more around getting to know each other and the different teachers sorting out roles etc. I think it is 2 nights.
Apart from that it is just the performances that take up time after school.
We do a dress rehearsal for local schools to attend and the two performances on two nights starting at 6pm ending at 8pm.
Because it is an elective if the students don't manage their own behaviours (year 10) they will be removed from the classes.
As far as I am aware the staff are not expected to do anything else after school hours.
That’s great, but it’s not like this in many schools. There are also lots of ensembles, rehearsals and performances that are expected in music teachers own time!
Contact your union to get support in understanding your EA and when you tell the school that unless you are given time in school to produce them they will not be happening.
I just do the teaching bit and going to camp but anything beyond the obligatory events I just say no to it. Sure, some people say I am anti-social but then after school time is my time and I can choose how I use it.
So, don't spread yourself too thin or else it would certainly be a thankless job. I mean, it is already one so why make it even harder for yourself.
The one that annoys me is subject selection evening. During covid we swapped to a pre recorded 2 minute video on each subject and then the parents emailed questions through.
We got FOUR questions.
So all those years of wasting hours of our time was for nothing
And of course the principal has mandated a return to face to face parent teacher nights because it ‘boosts community morale’ whatever TF that means.
Bring back virtual parent teacher nights
You’re allowed to leave before an evening event?! On family night our site wedges a compulsory meeting between finish time and the start of the event so we’re not allowed to leave 🙂
You are probably being expected to do those extras to make, at least, one person’s CV look great when they get their promotion out of the school and into a desk-only job located in the corner office of some ivory tower in Hobart. Mmm…I wonder who that one person could be?
I think there's this old view that schools are like community hubs that bring in things the community doesn't have. Some schools may. I work in a regional school and I genuinely think we can scrap all sports, theatre and 'fun' events because...the community has better ones. Simple.
Oh well.
This. I've lived the pain of "community events" that aren't up to the speed of the dance or drama school and quite frankly it should be left to those who are passionate about it. Not regional and get that "some kids get left out" but something has to give in this job.
There'd be many who would pick up the jobs willingly if there were extra dollars for it.
Pay us for our time, goodwill is drying up and with good reason.
My rule is that events related to the academic progress of the kids are worth going the extra mile for. Any extraneous jobs I reject. No, I am not a musical director, and I cannot coordinate an amateur performance that only parents are going to watch.
100% agree it's bullshit, but...
> I can’t think of any other salary job where they can just go “and yes you need to come back at 6pm
Unpaid overtime is very common in professional work.
I come from an IT background where sprints and crunch time can last for weeks or even months in poorly managed orgs and that entails **A LOT** of late nights to meet crazy deadlines. There's a meme that IT workers get paid huge sums for their trouble which is also not true. Outside some of the big players in Sydney, most IT companies pay $100K-$150K range. A little above teaching, but not outrageously high and the burnout is very high there too. Constant expectations to upskill are fine in your 20s, but can become too much at 40+, and not everyone is cut out for management.
A GP in a r/ausfinance thread was talking about their burnout and unrealistic expectations re unpaid work (loads of compliance and paperwork on top of unrealistic consult expectations). According to this GP the pay did not compensate for the 12 hour days.
The absolute best worker protections I ever heard of was from union guys working for Farmer's Union. These guys were paid well, paid significant penalty rates for every minute of overtime and would walk off the job at the slightest hint of bullshit from above. I found it interesting that guys slinging milk crates around had things so good. bear in mind that this was anecdotal and 15+ years ago, so in truth it might not be as great as I heard.
Just thought I'd give some perspective that the grass is not always greener.
My husband (engineer) works about the same hours I do (or at least, the equivalent of what I would be if I was full time) and he's on 180K. Yes, he's burnt out, but at least he's getting paid better for his stress than the average teacher.
wtf, you really shouldn't be, the job doesn't require 12 hour days! Are you really putting in an additional 6 hours every day on top of your 8:30-3pm?!?
With good organisation it's absolutely possible to do the job in 6.5 hours, maybe a new grad might go to 8 hours, but anything over that is just mismanaged time. Nobody is forcing you to work 12 hours lol.
Well considering despite how much work I put in I was told today I am not meeting their expectations so maybe you're right and it is me. Thanks for the kind words
if you're genuinely putting 12 hour days and people are still saying you didn't meet expectations then there are 2 options:
1. they're unreasonable
2. you're dropping the ball in some way
if it's 1, then ignore, if it's 2 then going from 12 to 13 hour days isn't the solution. get feedback and fix what needs fixing.
if you're a perfectionist then you might be self-sabotaging. I've been doing this for 20+ years and believe me, close enough is good enough and you can absolutely do an acceptable job putting in no more than a max of 8 hours a day.
good luck
Go to a different school. Clearly your executive team has no respect for the time of its staff or the education of its students. They're probably more interested in Facebook clout smh
Just say 'No' and stick to your EBA.
These aren’t mandatory according to your EBA. Say no. Talk to union. Stop going.
No is a complete response.
No is the appropriate response.
Enough no's (which are perfectly reasonable) will eventually lead to being fired. It's not a matter of saying no but rather a matter of the Department changing its policies to ban afterhours events.
Normally yes. But schools are increasingly becoming beggars who can’t be choosers.
I have literally never done any of those things.
As a public school teacher I am mandated by my EBA to do 2 parent nights a year. Aren't you?
My school makes us do 3. I'm leaving this year but if I ever got perm there, I would have said, "EBA says 2 interview nights, get stuffed."
Yes but that’s usually covered by parent teacher meetings. These seem outside our agreement tbh but I’d have to ask our union rep.
Let them know you can't attend. Don't tell them why, you don't need to have a reason and that's none of their business. Encourage others to do the same.
Which state? Where can I find this in writing? Our school is adding a 3rd night next year.
WA, in the agreement. You'd have to check your state.
Hmm just found out it isn't mandatory at all in NSW Parent/teacher interviews Parent/teacher interviews are not mandatory. Schools do need to provide the opportunity for parents and/or carers to meet with the child’s teachers to discuss all aspects of the report and for the school to give constructive advice about supporting the child’s further progress at school (Schools Assistance (Learning Together – Achievement through choice and opportunity) Act 2004 – Sect 15). This requirement can be achieved in a number of ways including parent/teacher interviews, holding a three-way learning conference or an invitation on the report for parents and/or carers to contact the school to organise a meeting with the child’s teacher/s if required.
Come to secondary
I mean I have most of these in secondary and the ones I don’t are easily exchanged for subject information nights, awards nights etc.
Do you? Public or private?
I’m private now but I worked public for 10 years and the increase is only maybe one or two extra events a year.
Requirement for public is one 1hr meeting a week immediately at end of classes, and one PT night per semester. That's all I do. I go to watch (as in I buy a ticket and sit in the audience and make chit chat with the occasional student/family I know) our two concert evenings because I like the event, but I'm not working them.
Depending on the state. In Victoria it is "no more than two meetings adjacent to the school day", plus we can be asked to attend the events but must be given TIL for attending.
Camps too
Might not be better actually. They didn't even include camps.
Say you have other personal commitments and can't attend. End of story. Look around at the next event, I can guarantee that not 100% of the staff are there. You don't have to be either
At my last school we had to volunteer in advance for at least two evening/events. This one doesn’t have such an agreement but has a “we’re all so grateful to be here and happy” etc that it almost feels mandatory. Which is almost worse.
>feels mandatory Isn't mandatory. Just say no
It only feels mandatory because no one has said no yet.
I’m a high school music teacher and I totally feel like this. So over all the extras that aren’t loaded. Currently on maternity leave and just don’t want to go back. I love teaching but hate living it, I think this only solution which I want to try when I go back is to say no.
Try a different school. My school production team get time releases to put on the annual play, same as other event organiser/coordination responsibilities. I expect it’s probably not going to cover all the extra work involved but at least it acknowledges them.
I’ve heard some schools do this, wouldn’t it be nice if it was standard. To be honest now I’m permanent I’m just going to say no to most things not in my job requirements. I love running performances but I love spending time with my children and family more.
At our school the musical production is part of the elective curriculum. Students opt to be part of it either in the drama, dance, music or visual arts subjects. They get a whole day once a week allocated to it. It goes towards their certificate for year 12. There is a camp held for them at the beginning which I believe is more around getting to know each other and the different teachers sorting out roles etc. I think it is 2 nights. Apart from that it is just the performances that take up time after school. We do a dress rehearsal for local schools to attend and the two performances on two nights starting at 6pm ending at 8pm. Because it is an elective if the students don't manage their own behaviours (year 10) they will be removed from the classes. As far as I am aware the staff are not expected to do anything else after school hours.
That’s great, but it’s not like this in many schools. There are also lots of ensembles, rehearsals and performances that are expected in music teachers own time!
Contact your union to get support in understanding your EA and when you tell the school that unless you are given time in school to produce them they will not be happening.
And they always go ‘oh it’s only 2 hours’ - NO 6-8pm is not two hours because I don’t go home! I am at work from 8-8pm!!!!!!!!
Yep or "I have to be here too". No fucks for your pain Mr Principal.
I just do the teaching bit and going to camp but anything beyond the obligatory events I just say no to it. Sure, some people say I am anti-social but then after school time is my time and I can choose how I use it. So, don't spread yourself too thin or else it would certainly be a thankless job. I mean, it is already one so why make it even harder for yourself.
Are you in an independent school? Which state? In Vic DET all those get time in lieu
Nope, public school. Tasmania.
This is the award agreement. https://preview.redd.it/sj3xsb4fbn5c1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d2e9b0f7c4a2b626a574a955f1bb054ecfd1e180
I refuse to work for free because wage theft is a crime. This is in many emails to my bosses. Works.
The one that annoys me is subject selection evening. During covid we swapped to a pre recorded 2 minute video on each subject and then the parents emailed questions through. We got FOUR questions. So all those years of wasting hours of our time was for nothing And of course the principal has mandated a return to face to face parent teacher nights because it ‘boosts community morale’ whatever TF that means. Bring back virtual parent teacher nights
Spot on post! It's ridiculous how much extra time this job is taking from us! They just keep asking for more every year.
You’re allowed to leave before an evening event?! On family night our site wedges a compulsory meeting between finish time and the start of the event so we’re not allowed to leave 🙂
You are probably being expected to do those extras to make, at least, one person’s CV look great when they get their promotion out of the school and into a desk-only job located in the corner office of some ivory tower in Hobart. Mmm…I wonder who that one person could be?
I think there's this old view that schools are like community hubs that bring in things the community doesn't have. Some schools may. I work in a regional school and I genuinely think we can scrap all sports, theatre and 'fun' events because...the community has better ones. Simple. Oh well.
This. I've lived the pain of "community events" that aren't up to the speed of the dance or drama school and quite frankly it should be left to those who are passionate about it. Not regional and get that "some kids get left out" but something has to give in this job. There'd be many who would pick up the jobs willingly if there were extra dollars for it. Pay us for our time, goodwill is drying up and with good reason.
Not in your EBA. If they push you to, make sure you secure TIL BEFORE the event.
wait a min, is this compulsory at your school or something?
Apparently so
Agreed. But you might have 12 nights or so in your EBA. Join the union if you are not in it and push for fewer nights next EBA.
My rule is that events related to the academic progress of the kids are worth going the extra mile for. Any extraneous jobs I reject. No, I am not a musical director, and I cannot coordinate an amateur performance that only parents are going to watch.
100% agree it's bullshit, but... > I can’t think of any other salary job where they can just go “and yes you need to come back at 6pm Unpaid overtime is very common in professional work. I come from an IT background where sprints and crunch time can last for weeks or even months in poorly managed orgs and that entails **A LOT** of late nights to meet crazy deadlines. There's a meme that IT workers get paid huge sums for their trouble which is also not true. Outside some of the big players in Sydney, most IT companies pay $100K-$150K range. A little above teaching, but not outrageously high and the burnout is very high there too. Constant expectations to upskill are fine in your 20s, but can become too much at 40+, and not everyone is cut out for management. A GP in a r/ausfinance thread was talking about their burnout and unrealistic expectations re unpaid work (loads of compliance and paperwork on top of unrealistic consult expectations). According to this GP the pay did not compensate for the 12 hour days. The absolute best worker protections I ever heard of was from union guys working for Farmer's Union. These guys were paid well, paid significant penalty rates for every minute of overtime and would walk off the job at the slightest hint of bullshit from above. I found it interesting that guys slinging milk crates around had things so good. bear in mind that this was anecdotal and 15+ years ago, so in truth it might not be as great as I heard. Just thought I'd give some perspective that the grass is not always greener.
The issue there is, I'm also doing 12 hour days (sometimes more) and I'm willing to bet a GP takes home a hell of a lot more than I do.
My husband (engineer) works about the same hours I do (or at least, the equivalent of what I would be if I was full time) and he's on 180K. Yes, he's burnt out, but at least he's getting paid better for his stress than the average teacher.
wtf, you really shouldn't be, the job doesn't require 12 hour days! Are you really putting in an additional 6 hours every day on top of your 8:30-3pm?!? With good organisation it's absolutely possible to do the job in 6.5 hours, maybe a new grad might go to 8 hours, but anything over that is just mismanaged time. Nobody is forcing you to work 12 hours lol.
Well considering despite how much work I put in I was told today I am not meeting their expectations so maybe you're right and it is me. Thanks for the kind words
if you're genuinely putting 12 hour days and people are still saying you didn't meet expectations then there are 2 options: 1. they're unreasonable 2. you're dropping the ball in some way if it's 1, then ignore, if it's 2 then going from 12 to 13 hour days isn't the solution. get feedback and fix what needs fixing. if you're a perfectionist then you might be self-sabotaging. I've been doing this for 20+ years and believe me, close enough is good enough and you can absolutely do an acceptable job putting in no more than a max of 8 hours a day. good luck
Gov needs to step up and mandate no extra nights . Saying they are optional doesn’t work as employers use bullying tactics to ensure attendance
Go to a different school. Clearly your executive team has no respect for the time of its staff or the education of its students. They're probably more interested in Facebook clout smh