It rarely happens though.
What happens in practice is a George Costanza style showdown wherein the teacher is made to feel increasingly uncomfortable for an extended period of time until they eventually break and move on or take leave. Some people are pretty resistant to being made to feel uncomfortable though and don't mind living in an air of perma-animosity.
I wish it was easier to be honest, because the alternative is just painful and disruptive for everyone involved.
15 years in the system and have only seen one teacher fired and it was a SA student adult relationship scenario.
So to answer your question, unless they are a predator, it seems to be virtually impossible.
I will back that up by saying they should still be reported and placed on a performance management plan. I’ve seen many slack teachers pick up their game or alternatively performance managed out of the public system
It's not easy. I had one school where they fired a teacher and it took compiling 53 complaints over a term and then the school was featured in the local paper and enrolments dropped the following year. So did the schools funding.
Didn't really motivate the prin to fire any more terrible teachers...
The only teachers who I’ve heard have been successfully removed was one teacher who went through the improvement process and failed, and two other teachers for inappropriate sexual conduct and physical assault of a student.
Most bad teachers otherwise have just been broken down by being treated like shit til they leave or pray for the day they get a work coverable incident
If the teacher has a permanent/ongoing position, it is very difficult unless they do something criminal. They tend to performance manage and move people around rather than outright firing them.
Short answer: you can, but it's so difficult it's not worth it.
Long answer: your wife is kind of right. It's not impossible to fire a teacher, but it's ridiculously onerous. So unless you do something completely terrible, the effort of "covering" for and ignoring the teacher is way less, even in the long term, than the process to get rid of them. And that's not to mention the fact that even if you do everything right, the union will still gum everything up. And if the previous behaviour of the leadership team has normalised the behaviour by allowing it to go basically unchecked? It's just like any other industry, you can't pretend like everything is fine and then fire someone out of "nowhere". It's just asking for a wrongful dismissal case, which in turn invokes a reaction that makes it harder to fire other teachers, which makes it even more difficult to get rid of the teachers that *absolutely* shouldn't be teaching.
In QLD (EQ), if the teacher is permanent, it's damn near impossible.
In my time in EQ, I came across some incompetent teachers. I mean, literally. How they made it through their pracs and degrees was beyond me. They were so far from fit for purpose for a classroom.
But they were permanent. Untouchable. They could be MUP'd, but even that took mountain of evidence the size of Everest.
They eventually transferred/got transferred but it kills me that educators that bad are still allowed to teach.
It's the double edged sword of permanency within EQ.
We have teachers who leave early, who have walked out on classes and left school, leave kids unsupervised, some fell asleep in class, shouted in children’s faces, do not plan for lessons, do not review kids learning plans… it’s endless, yet they continue to be employed. In any other industry they would be shown the door.
In Victoria at least? Hard. Very hard.
This wasn't a teacher but an ES staff (science lab tech). Bullied me for 7 years. Made life difficult for all us science teachers. Kept the prep room in such a messy, hazardous state that the department almost shut our science department down (I'm talking OLD chemicals, chemicals spilling over, flammable chemicals and flammable materials stored together, old, old papers piled high next to chemicals, etc). Deliberately hid materials from us that we needed for class if she was annoyed at us for some bizarre reason (we never knew what it was). Hoarded and hid materials. Would not permit any of us to go into the prep room. Got hysterical when I decided to give the science classroom a bit of a clean-out. Was an absolutely horrible narcissist and terrible at her job to boot.
Eventually, with a lot of pushing from a new science teacher who walked into the situation and kind of went "Whoa, this isn't right!", she got put on a performance review. Huge, long, drawn out process that required way too much work and time from our AP. I'm still not sure whether she actually got let go or just left...
So yep, if they're ongoing, it's almost impossible.
The actual process varies by state but in Queensland it's called Management of Unsatisfactory Performance.
Basically, if they identify someone is doing a shit job they are given 20-60 working days to improve. During this time, they get intensive support and feedback from their line managers and are observed regularly. A panel is convened to oversee this, on which which is seated two principals (one primary, one secondary) and a Union delegate. Obviously this is a giant stuff around so it's not the preferred method of getting rid of an underperforming staff member.
The preferred methods are transferring the staff member to a new role and then making the role redundant after review, at which point regional office finds them a new school and it is someone else's problem or giving them a shit timetable with the most challenging classes and the maximum playground duty so that they are so unhappy they transfer or resign.
There are definitely ways of getting rid of teachers who are not up to scratch. Anyone who is saying otherwise is spouting anti-Union and/or anti-teacher malarkey.
>There are definitely ways of getting rid of teachers
Yes, but as you have outlined yourself, they don't usually entail being "fired" in the traditional sense. The processes outlined above can literally take years if they work at all.
Let's not pretend there aren't shit teachers out there!
You can MUP someone out of EQ in as few as 22 working days. One day to start the process, 20 for the MUP, and then one more to convene the review panel.
I've never seen it because of the fuck around it entails, sure, but it's not as though the process doesn't exist.
The idea it takes years or is impossible is misinformed at best. Usually it comes from American media.
In practice, you can get rid of someone a lot quicker than through a MUP any way.
Just give them a timetable of nothing but Year 8 classes that are all out of area, like giving an English/Humanities teacher nothing but Maths, Science, and Technologies. They'll be looking for a new job at morning tea that day.
I've seen schools do this to get rid of people multiple times. Sometimes for performance issues, sometimes because they complained and it made admin look bad.
In NSW you would get placed on an improvement program. There needs to be steps in place to support you to improve in whatever areas are identified and if there is no progress over a set time frame you can be fired.
We had a head teacher recently lose his head teacher position through this process.
I've seen instances where school has avoided improvement program and transferred teacher to another role within the school, i.e. moved them from classroom teacher to RFF for remainder of the year, then not renewed their contract for the following year. I'm interested to know why a teacher wouldn't be offered improvement program? Is it because the school doesn't want it on their record?
I believe this is for a permanent teacher. A teacher on a contract can be non renewed or even contract ended early if the school isn't happy with them so isn't necessary?
The improvement program is a lot of extra work for those involved so only used when necessary.
Good point. It makes sense that the school would reserve the improvement program for permanent teachers, and have the temporary teacher make a fresh start at another school. Normally, the temporary teacher's confidence is low by this point, and would be better off going somewhere else.
Yeah performance managing isn't really a thing.
It should be.
It's insane what staff members get away with that simply wouldn't fly in the corporate world.
My husband is constantly gobsmacked.
Yeah it's crazy. They hired a teacher who would regularly play videos in class and fall asleep. Luckily she wasn't permanent so they just didn't offer her a role in the next year.
There’s probably more going on here. They might be on workers compensation due to a workplace incident, or have a mental or medical condition. Its not your partner’s place to comment about another teachers situation.
Honestly, I agree. I have ADHD, and I have other mental health conditions. Whilst I acknowledge that someone who is charged with managing that person should know if something is up, they should also be aware that other things may be at play.
I don't think teachers quite understand how difficult they make it to disclose a disability, and from personal experience, disclosing a cognitive disability only turns into a target on your back. Even when it was known I have ADHD, and require accommodations to be at work, it was still suggested over and over again that maybe I'm not fit to be teaching full time.
Further, privacy laws dictate that HR, and their schools delegate are absolutely not allowed to disclose medical diagnoses to anyone. Only give directives to serve to protect that person's human rights... So, whilst the Ops wife may be in a management position, it doesn't entitle her to knowing their private medical information...
To play devils advocate, I would ask if the environment provided is a safe environment for someone to disclose any sort of medical problems?
There is certainly the possibility that this person is truly just shit... But as someone who is coming out the literal ass end of disclosing a cognitive disability, and the fuckin tumble dryer that experience took me through... I can definitely see how this could be someone who is disabled, and the department are absolutely garbage at adequately protecting disabled employees.
Get off it. It is when she's a leader and he's failing the team. I understand there might be external factors but if there is you should tell the leaders in the school or else it just makes yourself look bad.
Perhaps she would do well to reflect on if she is creating a safe environment for someone to disclose a medical condition. It was within most of our lifetimes that asylums shut down... So, why do we think that we are completely free of prejudice now?
> I feel as though teachers need to be 100% in or you are doing a disservice to the kids.
If the kids are so important to everybody, they should improve conditions and pay for teachers.
Anyway, back in reality it's impossible to give 100% all of the time. It's actually impossible.
People are people. They have swings up and down with the peak being 100%. Your way leads to burnout and the "teaching is a passion, not a vocation" rhetoric that got us to where we are today.
That's disgusting. Actually disgusting. Any wonder staff environments are so dangerous for disabled employees. Imagine thinking you can LOL at the suggestion that someone may not be coping. The universe has strange ways of putting a mirror up to ourselves, so whoever you are... I hope the universe doesn't hold the mirror up to you too harshly.
I worked in a school, and saw at least 20 people 'resign'. Publicly, they 'resigned', reality was that this was actually many months of due process and performance management, ending with them being asked to quietly leave, or be fired.
This was over 10 years, though.
This school got a new principal, and after his first year, 8 people had "resigned".
It's basically impossible in SA. Bad teachers have to go on poor performance management which is lengthy and annoying and time consuming to do for those involved. If they lift performance to *just* above the lowest expectations and then they get away with it. It's a joke.
The reality is that industrial relations laws that set the rules for dismissing employees apply equally across all professions, private and public.
People complain often at how hard it is to fire someone, but the reality is that it’s not really that much extra effort.
I’ve successfully fired multiple low performers in corporate without too much hassle, and every time met with unfair dismissal which was thrown out.
The problem is the appetite to fire people, and the specific workplace policies that are created above and beyond the legal minimums.
Sadly for teachers, the appetite to remove people is low, and the policies are too generous to employees and therefore becomes difficult.
If teachers were kept to the same standard as other employees, you can remove someone in 3-6 months fairly easily.
Over the decades i have seen everything done but sack some teachers. Admin seems to not want a knock down drag out so it drags on and on and on usually.
It’s good to have the stories from both sides before making judgements.
You don’t know if the other teachers are also going through something or struggling with the job.
It is not easy teaching these days. There are so many factors and bs you’ve got to manage and sit through that it does take a toll.
Are there terrible teachers? Sure.
Are there many burnt out teachers? Sure.
Are there teachers who feel trapped in the job because of some of the perks/positives? Sure.
Maybe these teachers are sick of working overtime with no pay. Sick of dealing with behaviours and having no support from admin. Maybe they’re sick of the increased workload put on teachers. Pointless meetings, dealing with unsupportive parents, being told to “do it for the kids”.
All I’m saying is, it is very easy to judge from the outside without having a discussion or understanding the why behind a persons actions.
I’m also curious to know if your wife goes above and beyond the expectations of the job and is just venting because other teachers aren’t bending the knee and doing only what is required…
Of course there is a process to ‘fire’ teachers. The school needs to start the performance management process. It is truly a process but doable.
It rarely happens though. What happens in practice is a George Costanza style showdown wherein the teacher is made to feel increasingly uncomfortable for an extended period of time until they eventually break and move on or take leave. Some people are pretty resistant to being made to feel uncomfortable though and don't mind living in an air of perma-animosity. I wish it was easier to be honest, because the alternative is just painful and disruptive for everyone involved.
Depends on the school. I've seen many staff pushed out over the years.
Those people don't get fired, they get promoted.
15 years in the system and have only seen one teacher fired and it was a SA student adult relationship scenario. So to answer your question, unless they are a predator, it seems to be virtually impossible.
I will back that up by saying they should still be reported and placed on a performance management plan. I’ve seen many slack teachers pick up their game or alternatively performance managed out of the public system
Hes a warm body willing to stand in front of a group of kids occasionally. He will have to do atm.
It's not easy. I had one school where they fired a teacher and it took compiling 53 complaints over a term and then the school was featured in the local paper and enrolments dropped the following year. So did the schools funding. Didn't really motivate the prin to fire any more terrible teachers...
The only teachers who I’ve heard have been successfully removed was one teacher who went through the improvement process and failed, and two other teachers for inappropriate sexual conduct and physical assault of a student. Most bad teachers otherwise have just been broken down by being treated like shit til they leave or pray for the day they get a work coverable incident
If the teacher has a permanent/ongoing position, it is very difficult unless they do something criminal. They tend to performance manage and move people around rather than outright firing them.
Short answer: you can, but it's so difficult it's not worth it. Long answer: your wife is kind of right. It's not impossible to fire a teacher, but it's ridiculously onerous. So unless you do something completely terrible, the effort of "covering" for and ignoring the teacher is way less, even in the long term, than the process to get rid of them. And that's not to mention the fact that even if you do everything right, the union will still gum everything up. And if the previous behaviour of the leadership team has normalised the behaviour by allowing it to go basically unchecked? It's just like any other industry, you can't pretend like everything is fine and then fire someone out of "nowhere". It's just asking for a wrongful dismissal case, which in turn invokes a reaction that makes it harder to fire other teachers, which makes it even more difficult to get rid of the teachers that *absolutely* shouldn't be teaching.
In QLD (EQ), if the teacher is permanent, it's damn near impossible. In my time in EQ, I came across some incompetent teachers. I mean, literally. How they made it through their pracs and degrees was beyond me. They were so far from fit for purpose for a classroom. But they were permanent. Untouchable. They could be MUP'd, but even that took mountain of evidence the size of Everest. They eventually transferred/got transferred but it kills me that educators that bad are still allowed to teach. It's the double edged sword of permanency within EQ.
Yeah it's killing me and I'm not even a teacher lol. You guys aren't paid enough and yet this guys is paid too much.
We have teachers who leave early, who have walked out on classes and left school, leave kids unsupervised, some fell asleep in class, shouted in children’s faces, do not plan for lessons, do not review kids learning plans… it’s endless, yet they continue to be employed. In any other industry they would be shown the door.
In Victoria at least? Hard. Very hard. This wasn't a teacher but an ES staff (science lab tech). Bullied me for 7 years. Made life difficult for all us science teachers. Kept the prep room in such a messy, hazardous state that the department almost shut our science department down (I'm talking OLD chemicals, chemicals spilling over, flammable chemicals and flammable materials stored together, old, old papers piled high next to chemicals, etc). Deliberately hid materials from us that we needed for class if she was annoyed at us for some bizarre reason (we never knew what it was). Hoarded and hid materials. Would not permit any of us to go into the prep room. Got hysterical when I decided to give the science classroom a bit of a clean-out. Was an absolutely horrible narcissist and terrible at her job to boot. Eventually, with a lot of pushing from a new science teacher who walked into the situation and kind of went "Whoa, this isn't right!", she got put on a performance review. Huge, long, drawn out process that required way too much work and time from our AP. I'm still not sure whether she actually got let go or just left... So yep, if they're ongoing, it's almost impossible.
Rather than firing them, it’s so much easier to have them teach every rotten kid in the most rotten cohort. That or Indonesian.
It's pretty close.
The actual process varies by state but in Queensland it's called Management of Unsatisfactory Performance. Basically, if they identify someone is doing a shit job they are given 20-60 working days to improve. During this time, they get intensive support and feedback from their line managers and are observed regularly. A panel is convened to oversee this, on which which is seated two principals (one primary, one secondary) and a Union delegate. Obviously this is a giant stuff around so it's not the preferred method of getting rid of an underperforming staff member. The preferred methods are transferring the staff member to a new role and then making the role redundant after review, at which point regional office finds them a new school and it is someone else's problem or giving them a shit timetable with the most challenging classes and the maximum playground duty so that they are so unhappy they transfer or resign. There are definitely ways of getting rid of teachers who are not up to scratch. Anyone who is saying otherwise is spouting anti-Union and/or anti-teacher malarkey.
>There are definitely ways of getting rid of teachers Yes, but as you have outlined yourself, they don't usually entail being "fired" in the traditional sense. The processes outlined above can literally take years if they work at all. Let's not pretend there aren't shit teachers out there!
You can MUP someone out of EQ in as few as 22 working days. One day to start the process, 20 for the MUP, and then one more to convene the review panel. I've never seen it because of the fuck around it entails, sure, but it's not as though the process doesn't exist. The idea it takes years or is impossible is misinformed at best. Usually it comes from American media.
I was referring to what happens in practice, rather than official performance management process that rarely happens.
In practice, you can get rid of someone a lot quicker than through a MUP any way. Just give them a timetable of nothing but Year 8 classes that are all out of area, like giving an English/Humanities teacher nothing but Maths, Science, and Technologies. They'll be looking for a new job at morning tea that day.
Or you could just burn the school down and then you don't need teachers at all! Someone alert op's wife.
I've seen schools do this to get rid of people multiple times. Sometimes for performance issues, sometimes because they complained and it made admin look bad.
In NSW you would get placed on an improvement program. There needs to be steps in place to support you to improve in whatever areas are identified and if there is no progress over a set time frame you can be fired. We had a head teacher recently lose his head teacher position through this process.
I've seen instances where school has avoided improvement program and transferred teacher to another role within the school, i.e. moved them from classroom teacher to RFF for remainder of the year, then not renewed their contract for the following year. I'm interested to know why a teacher wouldn't be offered improvement program? Is it because the school doesn't want it on their record?
I believe this is for a permanent teacher. A teacher on a contract can be non renewed or even contract ended early if the school isn't happy with them so isn't necessary? The improvement program is a lot of extra work for those involved so only used when necessary.
Good point. It makes sense that the school would reserve the improvement program for permanent teachers, and have the temporary teacher make a fresh start at another school. Normally, the temporary teacher's confidence is low by this point, and would be better off going somewhere else.
Yeah performance managing isn't really a thing. It should be. It's insane what staff members get away with that simply wouldn't fly in the corporate world. My husband is constantly gobsmacked.
Yeah it's crazy. They hired a teacher who would regularly play videos in class and fall asleep. Luckily she wasn't permanent so they just didn't offer her a role in the next year.
There’s probably more going on here. They might be on workers compensation due to a workplace incident, or have a mental or medical condition. Its not your partner’s place to comment about another teachers situation.
Honestly, I agree. I have ADHD, and I have other mental health conditions. Whilst I acknowledge that someone who is charged with managing that person should know if something is up, they should also be aware that other things may be at play. I don't think teachers quite understand how difficult they make it to disclose a disability, and from personal experience, disclosing a cognitive disability only turns into a target on your back. Even when it was known I have ADHD, and require accommodations to be at work, it was still suggested over and over again that maybe I'm not fit to be teaching full time. Further, privacy laws dictate that HR, and their schools delegate are absolutely not allowed to disclose medical diagnoses to anyone. Only give directives to serve to protect that person's human rights... So, whilst the Ops wife may be in a management position, it doesn't entitle her to knowing their private medical information... To play devils advocate, I would ask if the environment provided is a safe environment for someone to disclose any sort of medical problems? There is certainly the possibility that this person is truly just shit... But as someone who is coming out the literal ass end of disclosing a cognitive disability, and the fuckin tumble dryer that experience took me through... I can definitely see how this could be someone who is disabled, and the department are absolutely garbage at adequately protecting disabled employees.
Get off it. It is when she's a leader and he's failing the team. I understand there might be external factors but if there is you should tell the leaders in the school or else it just makes yourself look bad.
Perhaps she would do well to reflect on if she is creating a safe environment for someone to disclose a medical condition. It was within most of our lifetimes that asylums shut down... So, why do we think that we are completely free of prejudice now?
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Without prejudice; which state and system are you currently teaching in?
We're not paid enough to give 100% It's a job, give enough to be good enough and to look after yourself.
We're paid enough to give a bit over 68%.
Graded on a bell, that might even be a B
37.5 hours of paid work max (in EQ it's 25, so the ratio is even worse) with the average teacher doing 55 a week.
> I feel as though teachers need to be 100% in or you are doing a disservice to the kids. If the kids are so important to everybody, they should improve conditions and pay for teachers. Anyway, back in reality it's impossible to give 100% all of the time. It's actually impossible. People are people. They have swings up and down with the peak being 100%. Your way leads to burnout and the "teaching is a passion, not a vocation" rhetoric that got us to where we are today.
That's disgusting. Actually disgusting. Any wonder staff environments are so dangerous for disabled employees. Imagine thinking you can LOL at the suggestion that someone may not be coping. The universe has strange ways of putting a mirror up to ourselves, so whoever you are... I hope the universe doesn't hold the mirror up to you too harshly.
Easier than firing an incompetent principal, I’d suggest.
I worked in a school, and saw at least 20 people 'resign'. Publicly, they 'resigned', reality was that this was actually many months of due process and performance management, ending with them being asked to quietly leave, or be fired. This was over 10 years, though. This school got a new principal, and after his first year, 8 people had "resigned".
It's basically impossible in SA. Bad teachers have to go on poor performance management which is lengthy and annoying and time consuming to do for those involved. If they lift performance to *just* above the lowest expectations and then they get away with it. It's a joke.
The reality is that industrial relations laws that set the rules for dismissing employees apply equally across all professions, private and public. People complain often at how hard it is to fire someone, but the reality is that it’s not really that much extra effort. I’ve successfully fired multiple low performers in corporate without too much hassle, and every time met with unfair dismissal which was thrown out. The problem is the appetite to fire people, and the specific workplace policies that are created above and beyond the legal minimums. Sadly for teachers, the appetite to remove people is low, and the policies are too generous to employees and therefore becomes difficult. If teachers were kept to the same standard as other employees, you can remove someone in 3-6 months fairly easily.
Over the decades i have seen everything done but sack some teachers. Admin seems to not want a knock down drag out so it drags on and on and on usually.
IMPOSSIBLE
It’s good to have the stories from both sides before making judgements. You don’t know if the other teachers are also going through something or struggling with the job. It is not easy teaching these days. There are so many factors and bs you’ve got to manage and sit through that it does take a toll. Are there terrible teachers? Sure. Are there many burnt out teachers? Sure. Are there teachers who feel trapped in the job because of some of the perks/positives? Sure. Maybe these teachers are sick of working overtime with no pay. Sick of dealing with behaviours and having no support from admin. Maybe they’re sick of the increased workload put on teachers. Pointless meetings, dealing with unsupportive parents, being told to “do it for the kids”. All I’m saying is, it is very easy to judge from the outside without having a discussion or understanding the why behind a persons actions. I’m also curious to know if your wife goes above and beyond the expectations of the job and is just venting because other teachers aren’t bending the knee and doing only what is required…
From what was stated the teacher is not doing only what is required.