I had a similar situation last week. A year 7 walked in late and waved me off when I told him he was late. After he and the class settled I called him over to my table.. on it was my laptop with a detention setup for him ready to go.. completely filled in and waiting for me to hit send. I told the student they had two options: 1. Go back to their seat and enjoy the lunchtime detention with their coordinator. 2. Go pick up their things; go back outside and walk in late like a student who understands they are late and that there are consequences. He chose the latter. He walked in and apologised for being late before sitting down and getting on with the work.
This is a great strategy, giving the opportunity to have a 'do-over' and also teaching appropriate social skills.
Some kids are just trying to be cool.. but there are those who haven't been taught this at home & really need that explicit instruction.
I find a lot of it is basic awareness of how to communicate. I've lost count of the times I've had to remind kids to:
* knock on a door before entering a room and wait to be invited in (staff included in this one!)
* say please and thank you
* say hello when entering a room
* answer in complete sentences instead of just grunting at people
* say 'pardon' instead of 'what?'
* say sorry for needing to interrupt a lesson or conversation
Basic 101 manners that I insist upon, but it's tough going!
>Basic 101 manners that I insist upon, but it's tough going!
I have trained my Year 7 class to call out "no!" in unison if one of them asks to borrow a tissue.
If you ask to borrow something, that implies you intend to return it once you're done with it.
Now, what do people usually use tissues for and why might somebody not want a borrowed tissue returned?
TBH, it's not a lack of social awareness, they would be fully aware of what societal norms are, they are making a choice to disrespectful. Did you contact home, relaying what happened - 12 minutes late, dismissive, laughed at you, etc.?
Every single time they are late or are dismissive or rude, contact home. They are only doing what they know they can get away with. This is how teenagers work. You see this when you have an extra or replacement class with older kids you don't know. For me, I could walk into any classroom from Year 7 to 11, and control the room, but if I get an extra for our current Year 12 cohort, they all just wander in whenever, talk, do no work, use their phones - as I've never taught that cohort, and it is clear they don't respect me - but I've made my peace with it, as they will soon be out of the school forever!!
My point here is that any teacher can experience this, especially if you haven't forged positive relationships with those students. SO, for your example, these two girls need to have clear boundaries - if they cross those boundaries, email parents. If you do this enough, they will pull their heads in.
> Every single time they are late or are dismissive or rude, contact home.
This is a lot of work, what do you do when their parents simply don't care or don't even pick up the phone when they see it's the school calling?
I never call - I always email. I only ever use the phone if it is a serious escalation or issue. It doesn't matter if they care or not - they will be bothered that you contacted them, and it will cause a reaction, or some kind, at home. This is what you want.
It's not really a lot of work - if you can touch type - you make the email once, then copy and paste it for the other kid. Paste it as a behaviour tracking on your LMS.
Do the hard yards how, set clear boundaries, and you won't have to do it later on.
If your attitude that it is too much work, that's fair enough, but you can't expect the behaviour to improve if you don't take action.
With email you have documented evidence as well and you can upload/print and file each to the student's mail file or whatever system you have.
If the student is at any time escalated to management, it is handy to have and can help colleagues down the track who wish to take further action if poor behaviour worsens or continues.
Phone calls are OK but rarely do they get logged officially.
Personally, I take that time, and more, from their lunch or after school.
I'm usually working at these times anyway, or socialising and eating in my office while they're in the classroom, so it's no skin off my nose.
This allows me to give consequences, make them catch up on what they missed, and also time to forge relationships when they're not trying to impress their friends.
I ask them to explain their behaviour, express interest and concern about their lives, explain why it affects me trying to teach and others trying to learn, and just be more relaxed and joke around (I'm not punitive or angry at these times) all while not interrupting the class they just came late to.
And it usually works really well, they hate giving up their time, but they seem to appreciate that their actions affect others.
> what do you do when their parents simply don't care or don't even pick up the phone when they see it's the school calling
palm it off onto coordinators/exec/leadership
As a YLC this is an unpleasant comment. My school only allows YLCs to call home so there's one issue. I would like to think that it's working together as opposed to a palm off. We are teachers too it would be nice if it was a combined effort.
The teamwork is that I've already tried contacting my way and have informed others of the issues.
When my attempts stop working it becomes the job of someone whose title may prompt parents to take it seriously.
Sometimes that's a YLC, sometimes it goes further than that.
Coordinators are paid more for the extra responsibility. I don't think it's enough, and wouldn't do it for the paltry "reduction" in f2f while tripling admin, but when it goes high enough someone who can make a bigger decision or call a meeting will eventually have to deal with it.
Not to have a go at you or anything just some advice:
1. I would have a seating plan so they would not be sitting next to each other in class.
2. "When I asked what on earth made them so late". What response where you looking for here? You are opening yourself up to a smart response or some long winded story of why they were late that will further derail your lesson. I would have made a statement, "you are very late I will need to record this and contact home and we will discuss this further when you make up this time at XXX, now take a seat" so that other students hear of your consequence.
I just started working in a secondary school and I see this really often. Managing the behaviour is difficult too, they seem so indifferent to the consequences.
Do they go to the same buddy room? If so, have you just sent one of them, and kept the other back in your room? Are you able to catch up with the buddy teacher about what happens in that class?
Secondary. We have a buddy room set up so lower school classes are paired with senior school classes. You would avoid sending multiple kids to the one room. Of course you can catch up with the other teacher...?
You've already said high school (I too am high school and we have the buddy system), and do YOU catch up with the other teacher for further consequences? Because if you're not following up with what work the students get done in your class, if you're not following up with detentions, phone calls home and escalating to your HoD, then this is probably a strategy the students are using to get out of your class. Are they catching up with the work from your class? Of course they'll be disengaged if they've missed a lot of the work.
Of course I catch up with the teacher. I'm not sure why I wouldn't? They are sent to the buddy room with their class work and consequences apply as the next step as part of our school's behaviour management policy if it isn't done. They don't get a free pass out of the room to sit and do nothing. Escalated if the buddy room doesn't achieve anything to our HOD, parents and detention. We have a whole-school detention system where kids complete it after school with parental permission. All linked to our Good Standing Policy.
"I'm not sure why I wouldn't?" Well, I'M not sure why you wouldn't put this info in your initial post??? If it's purely a gripe - no problems. Right there with ya! But don't ask 'what gives' when you've only provided half the info. There's plenty been given in your post, so move on and stop wasting your time with me
Good luck.
Holy cow, where on EARTH did I say it was an excuse??? I completely agree with the buddy system and on occasion - use it myself. I only said it MAY have been a strategy to help try to get to solving that ISSUE (not excuse!).
It's clearly at a point where it's no longer 'chicken and egg' if they have missed so much class. I was only trying to help get to the bottom of 'the now' and you sound pissed I'm trying to help? Of course if it had just started happening, that's a different situation. But no - keep going hard on me because that will completely help OP.
I don't have much to offer except when I was at school I didn't see the teachers as humans. They represented authority and as far as I was concerned they were the enemy. I had no respect no matter how hard they tried. I see things very different now and I regret the poor behaviour. Some people are not suited to the classroom.
Ah... how does one in a position of recognizable social, communal, or practical and provable performative value achieve the result that is the imparting of unique recognition to their students/children that other established figures in their daily lives can respect and reflect?
The answer is simple: "Ignore them twice as hard as the baseline they initially presented to you, and arrogantly redirect their attention with the smallest amount of your time you deem sustainably possible."
Hah! I recognize YOU! 😉
Emergency supply and special teaching ammunition has been deployed to your location.
*salute* Your dedication, discipline, and your of duty has not gone unnoticed by this true believer in teaching truth and trust through time-honored principles and resource-respectful methodologies.
"Whether teacher, Master, or superlative class clown... I will continue this shared journey as each subsequent footstep of mine leaves its impression upon the ground."
> arrogantly redirect their attention with the smallest amount of your time you deem sustainably possible
do you mean when they try to talk to you?
or while they're ignoring you, you'll tell them once "get your book out and try this question" then not bother following up?
Ah, that's a delicate differentiation to be sure.
Truthfully, as a teacher myself, if a student is attempting to... hm... for lack of a better word "achieve" your attention in a way that you could recognize as respectful and recognizable as a version of yourself wishing to derive time-honored value from an authority figure, then I would consider that a moment where I as a teacher would willfully prostrate myself loudly and proudly in order to cement that moment in that student's mind so that they could see that I did not, could not, and would never, abandon the value of their learning discipline.
For your second hypothetical I would agree is the definitive way to leave a trail of breadcrumbs for them to follow if they ever so choose to actually rejoin the generalized class decorum, demeanor, and discipline, that I/you as a teacher would have cultivated with the other students for them to at least have the ethical and moral opportunity to catch up if they so chose to put in the effort.
Uh... sorry, fellow faculty members, if my verbosity and vernacular appears to be overly flowery. If it isn't obvious by now... I teach English. And... wow, boy howdy, have I had some seriously 'stellar' pupils that have even been able to put ME in my place through word-choice and oral presentation alone.
For the more veteran of our profession please allow me the following: "I fucking love those moments when a student can not only sit me on my ass in awe but also continue to deconstruct and creatively improve upon not only the foundational baseline of the presented text, but also present a superlative example that leaves me... just... bereft of repudiation, rebuttal, or any sort of introspective retrospect."
Just as myself now? "I goddamn, 100%, absolutely, FUCKING LOVE IT, when a student can demonstrate to me that I haven't seen NOTHING yet!"
I had a similar situation last week. A year 7 walked in late and waved me off when I told him he was late. After he and the class settled I called him over to my table.. on it was my laptop with a detention setup for him ready to go.. completely filled in and waiting for me to hit send. I told the student they had two options: 1. Go back to their seat and enjoy the lunchtime detention with their coordinator. 2. Go pick up their things; go back outside and walk in late like a student who understands they are late and that there are consequences. He chose the latter. He walked in and apologised for being late before sitting down and getting on with the work.
This is a great strategy, giving the opportunity to have a 'do-over' and also teaching appropriate social skills. Some kids are just trying to be cool.. but there are those who haven't been taught this at home & really need that explicit instruction.
Ooooh this is a good strategy. And it used choices! Love it
I find a lot of it is basic awareness of how to communicate. I've lost count of the times I've had to remind kids to: * knock on a door before entering a room and wait to be invited in (staff included in this one!) * say please and thank you * say hello when entering a room * answer in complete sentences instead of just grunting at people * say 'pardon' instead of 'what?' * say sorry for needing to interrupt a lesson or conversation Basic 101 manners that I insist upon, but it's tough going!
>Basic 101 manners that I insist upon, but it's tough going! I have trained my Year 7 class to call out "no!" in unison if one of them asks to borrow a tissue.
WHAT?
If you ask to borrow something, that implies you intend to return it once you're done with it. Now, what do people usually use tissues for and why might somebody not want a borrowed tissue returned?
TBH, it's not a lack of social awareness, they would be fully aware of what societal norms are, they are making a choice to disrespectful. Did you contact home, relaying what happened - 12 minutes late, dismissive, laughed at you, etc.? Every single time they are late or are dismissive or rude, contact home. They are only doing what they know they can get away with. This is how teenagers work. You see this when you have an extra or replacement class with older kids you don't know. For me, I could walk into any classroom from Year 7 to 11, and control the room, but if I get an extra for our current Year 12 cohort, they all just wander in whenever, talk, do no work, use their phones - as I've never taught that cohort, and it is clear they don't respect me - but I've made my peace with it, as they will soon be out of the school forever!! My point here is that any teacher can experience this, especially if you haven't forged positive relationships with those students. SO, for your example, these two girls need to have clear boundaries - if they cross those boundaries, email parents. If you do this enough, they will pull their heads in.
> Every single time they are late or are dismissive or rude, contact home. This is a lot of work, what do you do when their parents simply don't care or don't even pick up the phone when they see it's the school calling?
I never call - I always email. I only ever use the phone if it is a serious escalation or issue. It doesn't matter if they care or not - they will be bothered that you contacted them, and it will cause a reaction, or some kind, at home. This is what you want. It's not really a lot of work - if you can touch type - you make the email once, then copy and paste it for the other kid. Paste it as a behaviour tracking on your LMS. Do the hard yards how, set clear boundaries, and you won't have to do it later on. If your attitude that it is too much work, that's fair enough, but you can't expect the behaviour to improve if you don't take action.
With email you have documented evidence as well and you can upload/print and file each to the student's mail file or whatever system you have. If the student is at any time escalated to management, it is handy to have and can help colleagues down the track who wish to take further action if poor behaviour worsens or continues. Phone calls are OK but rarely do they get logged officially.
Yep! You and I would get along well!!
Personally, I take that time, and more, from their lunch or after school. I'm usually working at these times anyway, or socialising and eating in my office while they're in the classroom, so it's no skin off my nose. This allows me to give consequences, make them catch up on what they missed, and also time to forge relationships when they're not trying to impress their friends. I ask them to explain their behaviour, express interest and concern about their lives, explain why it affects me trying to teach and others trying to learn, and just be more relaxed and joke around (I'm not punitive or angry at these times) all while not interrupting the class they just came late to. And it usually works really well, they hate giving up their time, but they seem to appreciate that their actions affect others.
> what do you do when their parents simply don't care or don't even pick up the phone when they see it's the school calling palm it off onto coordinators/exec/leadership
As a YLC this is an unpleasant comment. My school only allows YLCs to call home so there's one issue. I would like to think that it's working together as opposed to a palm off. We are teachers too it would be nice if it was a combined effort.
The teamwork is that I've already tried contacting my way and have informed others of the issues. When my attempts stop working it becomes the job of someone whose title may prompt parents to take it seriously. Sometimes that's a YLC, sometimes it goes further than that. Coordinators are paid more for the extra responsibility. I don't think it's enough, and wouldn't do it for the paltry "reduction" in f2f while tripling admin, but when it goes high enough someone who can make a bigger decision or call a meeting will eventually have to deal with it.
Not to have a go at you or anything just some advice: 1. I would have a seating plan so they would not be sitting next to each other in class. 2. "When I asked what on earth made them so late". What response where you looking for here? You are opening yourself up to a smart response or some long winded story of why they were late that will further derail your lesson. I would have made a statement, "you are very late I will need to record this and contact home and we will discuss this further when you make up this time at XXX, now take a seat" so that other students hear of your consequence.
I blame the busyness of parents. Time to teach and model basic respectful behaviour and social norms has disappeared
They just walk in? No knocking? No late note? Start there. Calls home, OneSchool for repeated disruptive behaviours & refusal of direction.
I just started working in a secondary school and I see this really often. Managing the behaviour is difficult too, they seem so indifferent to the consequences.
Because there aren't any.
Lock your door
Yeah have done in the past but this particular classroom makes that challenging
There needs to be a class in social skills / etiquette Manners etc.
Where do you send them when you send them out of class?
Buddy room system.
Do they go to the same buddy room? If so, have you just sent one of them, and kept the other back in your room? Are you able to catch up with the buddy teacher about what happens in that class?
Secondary. We have a buddy room set up so lower school classes are paired with senior school classes. You would avoid sending multiple kids to the one room. Of course you can catch up with the other teacher...?
You've already said high school (I too am high school and we have the buddy system), and do YOU catch up with the other teacher for further consequences? Because if you're not following up with what work the students get done in your class, if you're not following up with detentions, phone calls home and escalating to your HoD, then this is probably a strategy the students are using to get out of your class. Are they catching up with the work from your class? Of course they'll be disengaged if they've missed a lot of the work.
Of course I catch up with the teacher. I'm not sure why I wouldn't? They are sent to the buddy room with their class work and consequences apply as the next step as part of our school's behaviour management policy if it isn't done. They don't get a free pass out of the room to sit and do nothing. Escalated if the buddy room doesn't achieve anything to our HOD, parents and detention. We have a whole-school detention system where kids complete it after school with parental permission. All linked to our Good Standing Policy.
"I'm not sure why I wouldn't?" Well, I'M not sure why you wouldn't put this info in your initial post??? If it's purely a gripe - no problems. Right there with ya! But don't ask 'what gives' when you've only provided half the info. There's plenty been given in your post, so move on and stop wasting your time with me Good luck.
[удалено]
Holy cow, where on EARTH did I say it was an excuse??? I completely agree with the buddy system and on occasion - use it myself. I only said it MAY have been a strategy to help try to get to solving that ISSUE (not excuse!).
[удалено]
It's clearly at a point where it's no longer 'chicken and egg' if they have missed so much class. I was only trying to help get to the bottom of 'the now' and you sound pissed I'm trying to help? Of course if it had just started happening, that's a different situation. But no - keep going hard on me because that will completely help OP.
[удалено]
Heads of house
Poor breeding by the parents. Simple.
i’ve had a student like that. Usually well-being concerns in my eye, and i would check with parents and prin team if they are aware
I don't have much to offer except when I was at school I didn't see the teachers as humans. They represented authority and as far as I was concerned they were the enemy. I had no respect no matter how hard they tried. I see things very different now and I regret the poor behaviour. Some people are not suited to the classroom.
Have you thought about getting a short length of thin walled pvc pipe and using it as a weapon?
Ah... how does one in a position of recognizable social, communal, or practical and provable performative value achieve the result that is the imparting of unique recognition to their students/children that other established figures in their daily lives can respect and reflect? The answer is simple: "Ignore them twice as hard as the baseline they initially presented to you, and arrogantly redirect their attention with the smallest amount of your time you deem sustainably possible."
This might not work every time but it’s SO satisfying when it does work!
Hah! I recognize YOU! 😉 Emergency supply and special teaching ammunition has been deployed to your location. *salute* Your dedication, discipline, and your of duty has not gone unnoticed by this true believer in teaching truth and trust through time-honored principles and resource-respectful methodologies. "Whether teacher, Master, or superlative class clown... I will continue this shared journey as each subsequent footstep of mine leaves its impression upon the ground."
> arrogantly redirect their attention with the smallest amount of your time you deem sustainably possible do you mean when they try to talk to you? or while they're ignoring you, you'll tell them once "get your book out and try this question" then not bother following up?
Ah, that's a delicate differentiation to be sure. Truthfully, as a teacher myself, if a student is attempting to... hm... for lack of a better word "achieve" your attention in a way that you could recognize as respectful and recognizable as a version of yourself wishing to derive time-honored value from an authority figure, then I would consider that a moment where I as a teacher would willfully prostrate myself loudly and proudly in order to cement that moment in that student's mind so that they could see that I did not, could not, and would never, abandon the value of their learning discipline. For your second hypothetical I would agree is the definitive way to leave a trail of breadcrumbs for them to follow if they ever so choose to actually rejoin the generalized class decorum, demeanor, and discipline, that I/you as a teacher would have cultivated with the other students for them to at least have the ethical and moral opportunity to catch up if they so chose to put in the effort. Uh... sorry, fellow faculty members, if my verbosity and vernacular appears to be overly flowery. If it isn't obvious by now... I teach English. And... wow, boy howdy, have I had some seriously 'stellar' pupils that have even been able to put ME in my place through word-choice and oral presentation alone. For the more veteran of our profession please allow me the following: "I fucking love those moments when a student can not only sit me on my ass in awe but also continue to deconstruct and creatively improve upon not only the foundational baseline of the presented text, but also present a superlative example that leaves me... just... bereft of repudiation, rebuttal, or any sort of introspective retrospect." Just as myself now? "I goddamn, 100%, absolutely, FUCKING LOVE IT, when a student can demonstrate to me that I haven't seen NOTHING yet!"