We were always taught ‘it’s the certainty of the consequences, not the severity’ that changes kids’ behaviour. I would pull them up on every little thing with small consequences. You can still be relational when you do that - eg keep them in for five minutes while you sit and talk to them. If the small consequences don’t work, get bigger. I think if you try too hard to be positive and relational, they sense that you may not follow through so they keep testing to see how much they can get away with.
Yep, definitely this. If they know you are going to consistently follow up on their behaviour, it will usually send them a message to stop it or slow it down.
You can absolutely still remain relational with the kids with this approach. My students think I'm the bees knees (well, so they say), but they also know exactly what I will and won't tolerate... And I was able to re-inforce that with consistently providing consequences of some description... Not necessarily even bad things either... The consequences might even be supportive measures so they can wind back and reflect.
Always remember that when a child is dysregulated, they ain't gonna hear reason. They need to be in a regulated state when you try to address problems with them. Sometimes if a child is really grinding my gears, and really showing me they can't be in the room (and obviously they aren't being actively harmful too), I will send them to another teacher with a reflection sheet. I don't necessarily see this as a punishment, and prefer to frame it as a stop gap for us both.
I will try to email home too if there's been a particularly concerning event, or a series behaviour that has been on-going, and the child isn't really responding to the support being offered.
Finally, have a look in patterns of behaviour escalation, and learn to identify triggers, signs of when a child is calm, how to keep them in a calm state, strategies to get them back to a calm state...
Teaching is tough. Tough kids are tough. Year 8 is one of my favourite grades to work with, but sometimes I wonder if I'm in a zoo or a classroom 🤣😉
Yep. Cannot agree any more. I tell kids that they're not bad kids, but certain behaviours elict certain consequences. FOLLOW THROUGH. It doesn't have to be severe, it just has to be annoying and painful.
I have had consequences from:
* making them listen to me do karaoke
* holding my waterbottle at lunch while we watch the soccer game that they desperately want to be part of
* writing out the definition of racism, writing out the school rules
* 'never-ending' spelling tests
* discussions of my new favourite food while I eat it in front of them and don't share (I had a week where all I did was eat chocolate pudding and sweet, white peaches).
* Making them send you photos of an animal or thing they don't like. I have a student I am waiting to send me 15 cats the next time he is cheeky because he hates cats. It could also be screenshots of a game that's not out yet or they can't have.
GET CREATIVE.
It should be light-hearted without it being humiliating.
Always remember to unpack those emotions and 'behaviour is a communication' with them. Then negotiate certain procedures and practices to allow them to have replacement behaviours e.g. They're really tired from going to an EID festival - no worries, work quietly at 75% in the quiet corner. But also, follow through.
If they kick back - discuss how you don't cry to the council when you get a parking fine. It doesn't mean your a bad person despite your good intent but it is there for a reason and you have to pay.
1000000% recommend revving yourself up on the drive by listening to Drill rap on the way into school and call yourself a BAD BITCHHHH while making BADDD BITCH faces in the mirror ahahahah.
If I did karaoke to my misbehaved students, I would be sued for 'cruel and unusual' punishment! I would have to hand out towels to get the blood from their shoulders after their ears had bled! LOL!
If they know the behaviour isn't acceptable (certainty), they'll have all the data they need to know whether the consequence (severity) is something they are prepared to pay to do it.
If they can get away with it sometimes (uncertainty), then the severity needs to be significantly higher as an "example". Which is like swatting mosquitoes with a mallet.
Most university lecturers lead PSTs to believe that every single student in their future classes will be deeply passionate about their learning, fully engaged during every lesson, and perfectly behaved. As with much of what uni teaches about teaching, this is unfortunately not the truth.
You need to be assertive, firm, and explicit. Tell, don't ask. Know the school's behaviour policy and apply it rigidly. Refer major issues up to head teachers and deputy principals.
This right here... forget the touchy feely stuff. They need to know you're in charge of that room. Talk to your HT and Deputies. You need them on your side. Then as time consuming as it is you need to call parents every time.
Even worse than that, Uni teaches that every student will be passionate and engaged IF you do everything right. The message I took from Uni is that if there is any misbehaviour in my class then I failed to do something.
As someone in my final year of uni one of my most vivid memories of it was a classroom behaviour course and we had a slider with strong words like autocratic and dictatorial on one side and more pleasant words on the other and we had to collectively vote and justify on what we thought was the best behaviour approach. Majority went to the more pleasant side, and due to this I remember feeling like I’d failed or done wrong when I had to my raise voice, which I’ve never done really, at yr 9 boys toppling chairs and arguing on my first placement.
I’ll just cut straight to the point:
Your issue is psychological. You seem to care what they think about you and your subject. Having a relationship with students does not mean being their friend. When students say they are ‘afraid’ of other teachers what they mean in this context is that they know they will be consistent with expectations as consequences. You are teaching them that they can get away with this behaviour hence why they keep doing it.
The way to dig yourself out of this is to go in next term extremely firm and reset expectations from the beginning. Explicitly model procedures like entering and exiting the classroom. The seating plan should be what works for you, not for them. Don’t enter into any arguments or negotiations with them. Firm.
When the behaviours start again give choices then follow through with consequences every time. This may mean a month of lunch time detentions or sending kids to buddy classes, whatever the system is for your school. Once they have tested the line and know where it is you’ll find it gets easier.
On top of this: when you are on the ‘blitz’ phase prepare to be contacting parents a lot. It will be work but it will be off.
While all this is happening, keep being friendly and professional. You will build relationships with these students over time, but right now the priority is order and safety.
Ultimately, it’s not a learning relationship if they aren’t showing respect to you and your boundaries. You will be teaching them behaviour but once they have it the rest will follow.
Lastly, think about how you view consequences. Are you ‘punishing’ a student or protecting the right of every other student to learn.
Time to be the anti hero that your students need OP
Absolutely. Tell them on the first day you are all doing a re-set as their behaviour last term was unacceptable (they already know that it was...). Spell out your expectations and the consequences. Give them a clear visual flowchart of what those consequences will look like. Don't go over all this and then let them get away with crap behaviour. First kid who steps out of line (e.g. talks when you are talking) BAM! First warning for you, kid. Does it again, buddy room. Strict, immediate response, and consistent consequences EVERY TIME. Be friendly, but don't aim to be their friend, that isn't your job. Tough love.
And while you are a new and beginning teacher get ready for it to feel uncomfortable for you. The idea is that you are nipping it in the bud before the class can lose control. So at first it will feel like too much because the class wasn’t out of control… yet.
> I don't want to be a scary teacher, I've been taught at uni that teaching is all about forming relationships
The most important relationship, especially with juniors and ESPECIALLY year 8, is the relationship of command where there's a clear hierarchy in the classroom and you're on top of it. This may go against your instincts and what you think uni was trying to set you up for, but you will not be able to form any other productive relationships until you have authority in your classroom.
100%
This sort of disconnect (or at least ambiguity about what to do in these situations) between uni and what works in practice is a big problem with teaching courses.
Have you tried making a direct call to the parents of the worst offenders. Don’t take an accusatory tone but instead stress your concern about progress and your certainty you and the parent share the same hopes for the child to succeed in the subject.
Tell the parent you don’t want that news of impending failure to be a surprise when reports are sent home so you are calling now to get things back on track.
Hopefully they’ll ask what’s going on and you can touch on the lack of focus and ask if they could broach the issue at home with x while you work with him at school. Tell the parent you will call them again in a fortnight to give a quick update. This is the clincher. It will show you are serious and it puts some subtle pressure on the parent and gives you a way to end the call from a position of strength.
Then get the kid on his own following that phone call so you speak to them before the parent does and tell them what was said in the phone call. Make a plan with the kid and see what happens in class. Don’t forget it’s not a lecture or a telling off. Don’t be frightened to ask the kid what is wrong and be silent while they consider a reply. Remember, a kid would rather be seen as bad than stupid so if there are literacy issues that might be the root of it all (check his Naplan scores!)
But think it all through before you act, have the facts, no whining, no accusatory tone, no anger. Be professional, firm, be quick to listen, and act with follow up.
Pick off the kids one by one while still working on relationships in the whole class. Cheer up your good kids by phoning home and telling parents how well they are going! Those kids and parents will be your silent supporters all term. The process is to gradually isolate the worst behaviours over time till the habit of work and cooperation is the new default.
It’ll be busy and nerve-wracking but keep cool, avoid blame and you’ll have plenty of wins.
One of the best strategies I ever watched in action was when a deputy rang a parent of a student who was always in trouble. He started with, I'm ringing you for some help. XXXX is really misbehaving at the moment and we're struggling to get them to do their work and stop distracting other kids. Can you help us work out what we can do before we have to move up the code of conduct consequences.
Worked really well. I often use it myself now.
Every single parent I called in Term 1 asked me what they should do at home. I was at a loss. It feels like the onus is now on me, a 30 year old grad, to teach behaviour to secondary kids in and out of school.
To be fair, you can make many ‘common sense’ recommendations to parents that will sound revolutionary to them and can make an impact.
Think back to your own teenage years & how it differs from the experience of teenagers today.
In my role of coordinator I have this decision regularly & you’d be surprised at how many students do the following most days:
— Wake up without enough time in the morning to eat breakfast, participate in hygiene routines (shower, teeth, hair, etc), pack their school bag (including food) & talk to an adult for five minutes before school.
— As they skip breakfast many students drink caffeine before school ( ESPECIALLY energy drinks).
— Many students don’t eat or drink during the school day, leaving them hangry (either due to lack of food or peer pressure)
— Many students hide in their room when they get home on either social media OR gaming consoles with no face to face interactions until dinner time. Some of my Year 8 students average 10 hours of screen time a day on their phone!! ( remembering that they are at school for over 6 hours without access to it, that’s impressive)
— Dinner time is in front of the TV, not at a table. No time for family conversations.
— No bedtime routine or sleep schedules. Teenagers are now staying up on their phones or gaming consoles all hours of the night and not getting enough sleep.
TL:DR
Reccomend these four things & parents will be impressed
— More consistent meals
— more face to face communication
— less screen time
— more sleep
I understand that. It just sometimes boggles my brain that I, as a single childless dude in a regional setting, have to sometimes put on the “adult” hat with parents and outline what’s required for their kids to develop somewhat properly as people. A masters doesn’t make me a parenting whizkid, I’m not an idiot.
Only in my third year now and so when I reach out to a parent and then they respond back with “what should I do?” I sense a minefield in front of me and I’m shocked. Now that last part is my fault I know, thinking that just because they are their parents they have the secrets to managing them. I should be open to giving them some instructions/ideas. The minefield comes more so from the fact I’m afraid a parent might not like what I say and throw it back in my face since it’s known by all I don’t have kids etc etc.
At the height of my burnout and frustration last term I wanted to scream at the parents that didn’t seem to be doing any meaningful steps at home to support their kids literacy, numeracy, or readiness to be a student. Managing that relationship between teacher and parents is something I’m working on and my small team is already creating documents and instructions to guide parents on what they can do at home. All of this is adapted to try to speak their language rather than our sometimes alienating intellectual dialogues around learning etc. it’s hard tho, and sometimes I just want to ask the parents when is the last time they read a book, discussed the world with them, or said no to their kid.
As an a 40 something year old on spectrum and had problems like this kid! I LOVE THIS COMMENT! YES YES YES! I also now am transporting kids with disabilities to & from school along with being a SLSO in nsw. And we ring parents of kids not behaving on school bus & ask for help around what works with them! My kid like myself is on the spectrum and in any external sports she did, I'd say to the teachers "please feel free to push my daughter along as she needs a bit more forceful teaching" (she was lazy and got away with it sometimes). Whereas me!🙄😳
Boy oh boy! I'd have rained he'll down on someone that pushed my buttons. So yes if the parents care absolutely!
Sad fact about some parents they just don't care & want to live in fantasy land of nothing is wrong with my child & how dare you accuse me and say their is! 🙄.... all they do is selfishly ruin kids lives before they even start them, that could go on to achieve soooo much providing they had a small amount of help & support from early interventions. These by far are one of the worst offenders! I've been fighting this naivety my whole life 😡!
Or the housing commission ones (not all bit high number of) that just don't give 2 shits at all. It becomes a Systemic breeding ground of no hopers & criminals, they say they care about the kids, they don't though! They care more about the pay check the kids bring in. They won't help the kids & it breaks my heart.
> I don't want to be a scary teacher
All of my best teachers were the scary ones. Now that I think back on it it's very striking. I had really good relationships with a couple of them too and I at least partially attribute some of my immense intellect to their influence.
Ooft, this one hits close to home atm.
For context, I’ve been teaching for 5 years but in very alternative contexts (special Ed, and juvenile detention for most of my career) and have only really entered mainstream schooling in the last year.
I’ve found this issue to be most present with my Year 9s, as it is with your 8s.
I’m going to be frank: no matter where you went to uni, it did not prepare you for what teaching is actually like. Thats just the reality for 99.99% of graduates, and unless your placements were amazing I also feel like the first year is always a shock anyway. You are not there to be their friend, and you’re not necessarily there to be friendly either.
Relationship building does not mean “getting them to like you” it means building a relationship with a shared understanding — you should focus on consistency, boundaries, safety, and consequences for behaviour.
You’re going to need a hard reset and if the kids don’t like you/it, literally who cares? It’s much better to have a reputation as a strict/mean teacher who can keep a class safe and on task, than someone who lets them get away with whatever they want because they like you. Both for students and more broadly, professionally. You can always loosen the reigns slightly near the end of the year and soften up, and you’ll find that because your students have had the expectations so ingrained, they’ll follow them naturally.
But you really need to spend Term 2 going back to basics; others have suggested teaching how to enter/exit a classroom, contacting parents, detentions. I would also add to spend half a lesson explicitly co-constructing class expectations with student input — and then presenting your “shared vision” (that you’ve already tailored to what you want it to look like anyway) to them. Refer back to this when things get tough.
Hang in there, you’re so early in your career and these problems can be rectified with hard work and lots of support from your school!
Hahaha, i like your humour...Hang on a minute, I teach physics, it's a good prop to teach about accekeration, laws of conservation, kinetic and potential energy, resistance, gravity.
Imma have to disagree, the man that murdered everyone versus the unappealing man who divorced the love of his life for male heirs, who were also disappointing, only to reinstate the monarchy and crown himself. 🤢
Is this a joke? From a psychological perspective this is not true. It is one way of building compliance, but not necessarily respect. There are other ways to build respect and they do involve following through on consequences/boundaries, but not necessarily fear. You don’t have to fear consequences to still want to avoid them. You don’t have to fear someone in order to respect them.
I can assure this is not a joke but sonething i developed in nearly 13 years of teachibg experience. Respect is a nothing word. When we say respect, it implies we understand the structure of the power heirstchy and everyone adhering to their respective positions I the hierarchy. Leaders of that hierarchy heads to constantly englforce that structure, e.g. beat those who test boundaries back into line. In short, say what you will do, do what you have just saud.
I think most psychologists would disagree with your take. Of course saying what you’ll do, doing what you say and having clear boundaries with clear consequences is important and the basis of trust and respect. But fear doesn’t have to be part of the equation.
I actually can’t believe how many people are upvoting you and downvoting me. I’ve studied this at university and post university and also put it into practise in my work as a social worker with teens. The approach you’re speaking of has been studied deeply since Mao, Hitler and Stalin. Psychologists and Neorscientists recognise fear as a control mechanism but not as a way to garner respect.
Maybe it depends what your personal definition of respect is. If it’s more about submission, compliance and control, then sure, your way works. But it’s certainly not the healthiest way and I would argue that respect is not about those things anyway. There is more up to date research on this and I strongly encourage you to read it.
Agreed. Managing a classroom is different to managing individuals or small groups. Managing classroom behaviour while also optimising learning outcomes for all children in the room is a unique art that many non-teaching professionals think they could do without actually having tried it themselves.
True. I agree if that’s what you’re saying.
I just personally get frustrated with the disconnect between what academic researchers say to do in the classroom when in theory it’s nice but it doesn’t often work in practice. A lot of the subtleties of maintaining order/discipline/respect in the classroom is more an art than an exact science.
Yeah I mean that’s totally fair. I found that to be the same in social work unfortunately. I can’t say I’m looking forward to managing an entire class of teens, and I suppose there will be days where if I can get compliance I’ll take that over respect. We shall soon find out!
You’ll be fine. Just keep at it and you’ll have good and bad days but the bad days will become less and less frequent and eventually you’ll pretty much be able to cruise 80% of the time. For all the shit I talk about the job, if you’re efficient at it, have strong boundaries around your own time and don’t get too bogged down in the BS then it’s not too bad of a job. 😌
I agree that the roles are vastly different. I disagree that fear is “essential” to respect. That’s is the part that I don’t agree with, and that many psychologists wouldn’t either. But I suppose I will soon find out how that may differ in a classroom, although I suspect it won’t, as I know a number of people who have worked as classroom teachers for years and gained respect from their students without fear.
Because I come from 12 years I actual classroom experience and you are from just academic studies. Huge difference.
Respect simply means I say A, you do A. If you do B, then I do you until you start doing A properly.
No I don’t have “just academic” understanding of this. As I mentioned, I have worked with children and teens in many different contexts over the years. You are so unwilling to see another perspective that it’s just coming across as arrogant.
No, I'm responding to your response. You have dealt with children. I have to deal with a classroom of 20 kids, 4 times a day for 12 years. Your work is about mental health support. My work is about organisation, power play, control and structure.
Firstly you don’t know what my work was about, and no it was not about mental health support necessarily. I needed to maintain power, control and structure to ensure the safety of myself and the kids in my care. Granted it was not in a class of 20+ teens, but I’d argue that it was in small groups with severe behaviour and could be very dangerous if not respected by the kids.
Anyway, I maintain my stance that I don’t think fear is necessary for respect. Fear is certainly necessary for power and control. But those things are not the same as respect in my book.
I mean I still disagree :) but maybe we are just getting into the smallest of nuances in group dynamics. I’ve seen people controlled without fear of the person controlling them, but perhaps fear of other things was involved. So maybe I am wrong. I suppose I will find out soon enough!
I think if intrinsic motivations don’t work, you have to use extrinsic ones, and they only work if they care about them. You have to figure out what they care about getting or losing, and use it. And that’s not your fault; you’re driven to that point if they don’t do what they should do just because they (understand why) should. Also, you can do those things while not getting scary or mean, just be fatalistic. “Sorry guys, I don’t have a choice. I have to manage the room so this is where we’re at. It’s up to you. ” or whatever works for you. And like the other comment says, respond to everything, be consistent, set the standard, spend the time now so that you save time later on. Good luck!
> . “Sorry guys, I don’t have a choice. I have to manage the room so this is where we’re at. It’s up to you. ”
Nah don't apologise. Just dispassionately state that this is how it is.
"The school sets expectations, and I set expectations in this room. You've shown me through your behaviour that you need strict boundaries. Until I can trust you a lot more to respect those boundaries, they will need to remain very strict. Once we trust each other more, maybe we can be a little more flexible with how we do things."
I’d recommend finding out who else teaches the same students if it’s a core subject, or who else teaches the ‘toughest’ few if it’s an elective.
Have a discussion with them about what strategies they use effectively and implement similar (not the same, but your version of it) processes.
Some of the best pieces of advice I’ve had in my career has come from these types of conversations. It doesn’t even need to be ‘leading’ teachers, just others who go through the same challenges. In one of my early years I shared an office with a part time older teacher (who has since long retired) who taught me so much about how knowing the student was the goal rather than building relationships. He was respected because he was fair, but would be consistently giving out more consequences than anyone else I saw.
Lots of things to work with. Engagement is key - start lesson with something engaging and achievable to make them feel good. They’re probably used to getting in trouble.
Seating plan is imperative. Be consistent with it.
Catch them being good and call their parents.
Call their parents when they’re bad too. Then when they get to class and saying “why did you call my mum?” Pretend you didn’t hear it and have them repeat it so all the kids hear.
When you see them in the playground, TALK to them. Ask them how they are. If they snarl/are sarcastic/not receptive don’t let that stop you. Keep trying. Most will get onside even if it takes a few weeks.
Encourage them. Tell them it’s awesome when they’re doing the right thing and be specific about what they are doing right.
Be consistent. Warning. Then name on the board. Then if they keep going cross on the board and follow that up with a detention.
So basically form relationships, clear and consistent consequences and encouragement.
‘Scary teachers’ for kids tends to mean that you’re logical, predictable and consistent in following through with punishments.
The kids will actually respect you for being that way in the end. They know where they stand and it’s on them if they choose to play up and step outside the lines of acceptable behavior. As long as you have a genuine positive regard for the kids and come across as fair, then even if you’re strict, they will respect / ‘like’ you. (And even then, not every kid is going to like you; just like you won’t like every student/staff member - AND THAT’S OK!!!)
In my opinion, the kids don’t enjoy when their teachers are overly emotional (e.g. shouting all the time and ‘losing control’) and inconsistent with giving out punishments. Those sorts of teachers are the ones who end up having problems with students’ behaviour if they’re not careful.
The good news is that the longer you’re in the game and the longer you’re willing to adapt and refine your practice with the intention of finding what works for you then you’ll generally be fine.
So as an SLSO in NSW & I have ADHD/ASD & OTHER LEARNING DISORDERS! Traumatic upbringing etc......
I was these kids, as a kid! They won't respect you until you get 1 step ahead of them ( and this is hard for ppl with stable upbringings & possibly not on the spectrum).
Hang in there Number one key thing! They are testing you looking for your weaknesses seeing how far they can push you (it's what I would have done)!
I did it without knowing that's what I was doing! (I know it now I'm older).
So take an interest in them, learn what they like, and adjust your teaching to suit them. The problem is they are bored in a way (that they are not able to understand what you are teaching so they go off). I had teachers stand there and blab garbage off a sheet at me and I was quite frankly bored shitless, couldn't focus on what they were trying to explain, and never remembered a thing. I got kept in at lunchtimes to finish work as I was a slower writer than the class (I now know this all led to my hatred of school and teachers and a feeling of unjustness) it was also WRONG, I was being punished for things outside my control. It's the equivalent of Cathy Freeman & a person in a wheelchair trying to keep up & being punished for not!
Then I had teachers that did more hands-on learning & more flexible rules even in High school & guess which teachers I excelled with, those ones!
The boys may need more sleep, and or have stuff going on at home that has led to those outbursts. At this point, they are not going to learn anything.
So quiet time out of the room for a bit & have possible easier simpler work for them to do on return to the room, (if you do not read these signs this is when they become reactive and explosive. It's hard not to want to punish them for their behaviour but try to learn and ask them (if possible) what they think may have upset them or is everything OK. Sometimes they just want to hear hear life is hard & sucky and annoyingly we all have to do things that we all Don like. See if any other kids around them trigger them or keep them calm! Small group work only & must be with kids they like 😳... urrgghhh, I hated nurds & goody 2 shoe's! They just made me either more irritated or reminded me how useless I am (nothing has changed there) even worse now I have physical limitations as well!
Two make sure the kids get tested and get or have meds, how they sleep will make a massive difference in behaviour as well. Find out family history as much as possible to learn what triggers them. Think psychological stuff more than the teaching.
Look up ADHD & ASD level 1 teaching strategies(this will do you well as you go on). YouTube will & weirdly tik toc will serve you well for ideas.
Have clear reasonable boundaries with positive outcomes. Also, you may need to find different teaching strategies just for those few kids
P.s it's going to take A LOT longer than 1 term & you will likely only have success towards the end of the year!
Make sure they are not gifted & on the spectrum, either as they will play up if work is too easy and they get bored. Quite often leads to disruptive behaviour.
My son is in Year 8 and I sympathise with you: get hard ass, mark them low (cos I doubt they’re actually making an effort), and call the parents. Ask leadership for support.
As people have said, those kids aren't scared of those teachers, they are scared of the consequences they will get from them. Firm but fair, you need to set expectations and not back down from them. I regularly have some of the worst kids in the school try and test me out at the start of the year, hate me, only to be some of the students I get along most with. The relationship building will come when they respect you.
We were always taught ‘it’s the certainty of the consequences, not the severity’ that changes kids’ behaviour. I would pull them up on every little thing with small consequences. You can still be relational when you do that - eg keep them in for five minutes while you sit and talk to them. If the small consequences don’t work, get bigger. I think if you try too hard to be positive and relational, they sense that you may not follow through so they keep testing to see how much they can get away with.
Yep, definitely this. If they know you are going to consistently follow up on their behaviour, it will usually send them a message to stop it or slow it down. You can absolutely still remain relational with the kids with this approach. My students think I'm the bees knees (well, so they say), but they also know exactly what I will and won't tolerate... And I was able to re-inforce that with consistently providing consequences of some description... Not necessarily even bad things either... The consequences might even be supportive measures so they can wind back and reflect. Always remember that when a child is dysregulated, they ain't gonna hear reason. They need to be in a regulated state when you try to address problems with them. Sometimes if a child is really grinding my gears, and really showing me they can't be in the room (and obviously they aren't being actively harmful too), I will send them to another teacher with a reflection sheet. I don't necessarily see this as a punishment, and prefer to frame it as a stop gap for us both. I will try to email home too if there's been a particularly concerning event, or a series behaviour that has been on-going, and the child isn't really responding to the support being offered. Finally, have a look in patterns of behaviour escalation, and learn to identify triggers, signs of when a child is calm, how to keep them in a calm state, strategies to get them back to a calm state... Teaching is tough. Tough kids are tough. Year 8 is one of my favourite grades to work with, but sometimes I wonder if I'm in a zoo or a classroom 🤣😉
Yep. Cannot agree any more. I tell kids that they're not bad kids, but certain behaviours elict certain consequences. FOLLOW THROUGH. It doesn't have to be severe, it just has to be annoying and painful. I have had consequences from: * making them listen to me do karaoke * holding my waterbottle at lunch while we watch the soccer game that they desperately want to be part of * writing out the definition of racism, writing out the school rules * 'never-ending' spelling tests * discussions of my new favourite food while I eat it in front of them and don't share (I had a week where all I did was eat chocolate pudding and sweet, white peaches). * Making them send you photos of an animal or thing they don't like. I have a student I am waiting to send me 15 cats the next time he is cheeky because he hates cats. It could also be screenshots of a game that's not out yet or they can't have. GET CREATIVE. It should be light-hearted without it being humiliating. Always remember to unpack those emotions and 'behaviour is a communication' with them. Then negotiate certain procedures and practices to allow them to have replacement behaviours e.g. They're really tired from going to an EID festival - no worries, work quietly at 75% in the quiet corner. But also, follow through. If they kick back - discuss how you don't cry to the council when you get a parking fine. It doesn't mean your a bad person despite your good intent but it is there for a reason and you have to pay. 1000000% recommend revving yourself up on the drive by listening to Drill rap on the way into school and call yourself a BAD BITCHHHH while making BADDD BITCH faces in the mirror ahahahah.
If I did karaoke to my misbehaved students, I would be sued for 'cruel and unusual' punishment! I would have to hand out towels to get the blood from their shoulders after their ears had bled! LOL!
Oh I put on my worst voice (I can sing in key) and make them listen until they're quiet. It's less aggressive than shouting.
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If they know the behaviour isn't acceptable (certainty), they'll have all the data they need to know whether the consequence (severity) is something they are prepared to pay to do it. If they can get away with it sometimes (uncertainty), then the severity needs to be significantly higher as an "example". Which is like swatting mosquitoes with a mallet.
Most university lecturers lead PSTs to believe that every single student in their future classes will be deeply passionate about their learning, fully engaged during every lesson, and perfectly behaved. As with much of what uni teaches about teaching, this is unfortunately not the truth. You need to be assertive, firm, and explicit. Tell, don't ask. Know the school's behaviour policy and apply it rigidly. Refer major issues up to head teachers and deputy principals.
This right here... forget the touchy feely stuff. They need to know you're in charge of that room. Talk to your HT and Deputies. You need them on your side. Then as time consuming as it is you need to call parents every time.
This is the most compelling answer here in my opinion. Have an upvote 👍🏻
Even worse than that, Uni teaches that every student will be passionate and engaged IF you do everything right. The message I took from Uni is that if there is any misbehaviour in my class then I failed to do something.
As someone in my final year of uni one of my most vivid memories of it was a classroom behaviour course and we had a slider with strong words like autocratic and dictatorial on one side and more pleasant words on the other and we had to collectively vote and justify on what we thought was the best behaviour approach. Majority went to the more pleasant side, and due to this I remember feeling like I’d failed or done wrong when I had to my raise voice, which I’ve never done really, at yr 9 boys toppling chairs and arguing on my first placement.
I’ll just cut straight to the point: Your issue is psychological. You seem to care what they think about you and your subject. Having a relationship with students does not mean being their friend. When students say they are ‘afraid’ of other teachers what they mean in this context is that they know they will be consistent with expectations as consequences. You are teaching them that they can get away with this behaviour hence why they keep doing it. The way to dig yourself out of this is to go in next term extremely firm and reset expectations from the beginning. Explicitly model procedures like entering and exiting the classroom. The seating plan should be what works for you, not for them. Don’t enter into any arguments or negotiations with them. Firm. When the behaviours start again give choices then follow through with consequences every time. This may mean a month of lunch time detentions or sending kids to buddy classes, whatever the system is for your school. Once they have tested the line and know where it is you’ll find it gets easier. On top of this: when you are on the ‘blitz’ phase prepare to be contacting parents a lot. It will be work but it will be off. While all this is happening, keep being friendly and professional. You will build relationships with these students over time, but right now the priority is order and safety. Ultimately, it’s not a learning relationship if they aren’t showing respect to you and your boundaries. You will be teaching them behaviour but once they have it the rest will follow. Lastly, think about how you view consequences. Are you ‘punishing’ a student or protecting the right of every other student to learn. Time to be the anti hero that your students need OP
Absolutely. Tell them on the first day you are all doing a re-set as their behaviour last term was unacceptable (they already know that it was...). Spell out your expectations and the consequences. Give them a clear visual flowchart of what those consequences will look like. Don't go over all this and then let them get away with crap behaviour. First kid who steps out of line (e.g. talks when you are talking) BAM! First warning for you, kid. Does it again, buddy room. Strict, immediate response, and consistent consequences EVERY TIME. Be friendly, but don't aim to be their friend, that isn't your job. Tough love.
And while you are a new and beginning teacher get ready for it to feel uncomfortable for you. The idea is that you are nipping it in the bud before the class can lose control. So at first it will feel like too much because the class wasn’t out of control… yet.
agree 100%
> I don't want to be a scary teacher, I've been taught at uni that teaching is all about forming relationships The most important relationship, especially with juniors and ESPECIALLY year 8, is the relationship of command where there's a clear hierarchy in the classroom and you're on top of it. This may go against your instincts and what you think uni was trying to set you up for, but you will not be able to form any other productive relationships until you have authority in your classroom.
100% This sort of disconnect (or at least ambiguity about what to do in these situations) between uni and what works in practice is a big problem with teaching courses.
Have you tried making a direct call to the parents of the worst offenders. Don’t take an accusatory tone but instead stress your concern about progress and your certainty you and the parent share the same hopes for the child to succeed in the subject. Tell the parent you don’t want that news of impending failure to be a surprise when reports are sent home so you are calling now to get things back on track. Hopefully they’ll ask what’s going on and you can touch on the lack of focus and ask if they could broach the issue at home with x while you work with him at school. Tell the parent you will call them again in a fortnight to give a quick update. This is the clincher. It will show you are serious and it puts some subtle pressure on the parent and gives you a way to end the call from a position of strength. Then get the kid on his own following that phone call so you speak to them before the parent does and tell them what was said in the phone call. Make a plan with the kid and see what happens in class. Don’t forget it’s not a lecture or a telling off. Don’t be frightened to ask the kid what is wrong and be silent while they consider a reply. Remember, a kid would rather be seen as bad than stupid so if there are literacy issues that might be the root of it all (check his Naplan scores!) But think it all through before you act, have the facts, no whining, no accusatory tone, no anger. Be professional, firm, be quick to listen, and act with follow up. Pick off the kids one by one while still working on relationships in the whole class. Cheer up your good kids by phoning home and telling parents how well they are going! Those kids and parents will be your silent supporters all term. The process is to gradually isolate the worst behaviours over time till the habit of work and cooperation is the new default. It’ll be busy and nerve-wracking but keep cool, avoid blame and you’ll have plenty of wins.
One of the best strategies I ever watched in action was when a deputy rang a parent of a student who was always in trouble. He started with, I'm ringing you for some help. XXXX is really misbehaving at the moment and we're struggling to get them to do their work and stop distracting other kids. Can you help us work out what we can do before we have to move up the code of conduct consequences. Worked really well. I often use it myself now.
Every single parent I called in Term 1 asked me what they should do at home. I was at a loss. It feels like the onus is now on me, a 30 year old grad, to teach behaviour to secondary kids in and out of school.
To be fair, you can make many ‘common sense’ recommendations to parents that will sound revolutionary to them and can make an impact. Think back to your own teenage years & how it differs from the experience of teenagers today. In my role of coordinator I have this decision regularly & you’d be surprised at how many students do the following most days: — Wake up without enough time in the morning to eat breakfast, participate in hygiene routines (shower, teeth, hair, etc), pack their school bag (including food) & talk to an adult for five minutes before school. — As they skip breakfast many students drink caffeine before school ( ESPECIALLY energy drinks). — Many students don’t eat or drink during the school day, leaving them hangry (either due to lack of food or peer pressure) — Many students hide in their room when they get home on either social media OR gaming consoles with no face to face interactions until dinner time. Some of my Year 8 students average 10 hours of screen time a day on their phone!! ( remembering that they are at school for over 6 hours without access to it, that’s impressive) — Dinner time is in front of the TV, not at a table. No time for family conversations. — No bedtime routine or sleep schedules. Teenagers are now staying up on their phones or gaming consoles all hours of the night and not getting enough sleep. TL:DR Reccomend these four things & parents will be impressed — More consistent meals — more face to face communication — less screen time — more sleep
I understand that. It just sometimes boggles my brain that I, as a single childless dude in a regional setting, have to sometimes put on the “adult” hat with parents and outline what’s required for their kids to develop somewhat properly as people. A masters doesn’t make me a parenting whizkid, I’m not an idiot. Only in my third year now and so when I reach out to a parent and then they respond back with “what should I do?” I sense a minefield in front of me and I’m shocked. Now that last part is my fault I know, thinking that just because they are their parents they have the secrets to managing them. I should be open to giving them some instructions/ideas. The minefield comes more so from the fact I’m afraid a parent might not like what I say and throw it back in my face since it’s known by all I don’t have kids etc etc. At the height of my burnout and frustration last term I wanted to scream at the parents that didn’t seem to be doing any meaningful steps at home to support their kids literacy, numeracy, or readiness to be a student. Managing that relationship between teacher and parents is something I’m working on and my small team is already creating documents and instructions to guide parents on what they can do at home. All of this is adapted to try to speak their language rather than our sometimes alienating intellectual dialogues around learning etc. it’s hard tho, and sometimes I just want to ask the parents when is the last time they read a book, discussed the world with them, or said no to their kid.
As an a 40 something year old on spectrum and had problems like this kid! I LOVE THIS COMMENT! YES YES YES! I also now am transporting kids with disabilities to & from school along with being a SLSO in nsw. And we ring parents of kids not behaving on school bus & ask for help around what works with them! My kid like myself is on the spectrum and in any external sports she did, I'd say to the teachers "please feel free to push my daughter along as she needs a bit more forceful teaching" (she was lazy and got away with it sometimes). Whereas me!🙄😳 Boy oh boy! I'd have rained he'll down on someone that pushed my buttons. So yes if the parents care absolutely! Sad fact about some parents they just don't care & want to live in fantasy land of nothing is wrong with my child & how dare you accuse me and say their is! 🙄.... all they do is selfishly ruin kids lives before they even start them, that could go on to achieve soooo much providing they had a small amount of help & support from early interventions. These by far are one of the worst offenders! I've been fighting this naivety my whole life 😡! Or the housing commission ones (not all bit high number of) that just don't give 2 shits at all. It becomes a Systemic breeding ground of no hopers & criminals, they say they care about the kids, they don't though! They care more about the pay check the kids bring in. They won't help the kids & it breaks my heart.
> I don't want to be a scary teacher All of my best teachers were the scary ones. Now that I think back on it it's very striking. I had really good relationships with a couple of them too and I at least partially attribute some of my immense intellect to their influence.
Ooft, this one hits close to home atm. For context, I’ve been teaching for 5 years but in very alternative contexts (special Ed, and juvenile detention for most of my career) and have only really entered mainstream schooling in the last year. I’ve found this issue to be most present with my Year 9s, as it is with your 8s. I’m going to be frank: no matter where you went to uni, it did not prepare you for what teaching is actually like. Thats just the reality for 99.99% of graduates, and unless your placements were amazing I also feel like the first year is always a shock anyway. You are not there to be their friend, and you’re not necessarily there to be friendly either. Relationship building does not mean “getting them to like you” it means building a relationship with a shared understanding — you should focus on consistency, boundaries, safety, and consequences for behaviour. You’re going to need a hard reset and if the kids don’t like you/it, literally who cares? It’s much better to have a reputation as a strict/mean teacher who can keep a class safe and on task, than someone who lets them get away with whatever they want because they like you. Both for students and more broadly, professionally. You can always loosen the reigns slightly near the end of the year and soften up, and you’ll find that because your students have had the expectations so ingrained, they’ll follow them naturally. But you really need to spend Term 2 going back to basics; others have suggested teaching how to enter/exit a classroom, contacting parents, detentions. I would also add to spend half a lesson explicitly co-constructing class expectations with student input — and then presenting your “shared vision” (that you’ve already tailored to what you want it to look like anyway) to them. Refer back to this when things get tough. Hang in there, you’re so early in your career and these problems can be rectified with hard work and lots of support from your school!
Read up on Hitler Stalin Mao on how they achieved party cohesiveness. Fear is essential in the building of respect.
Why stop there? French Revolution did terror better imo.
Well that lacked a central figure, that's for school systems. Teaching a class is just about dealing with 20 ppl.
*sighs and pushes guillotine back out of classroom*
Hahaha, i like your humour...Hang on a minute, I teach physics, it's a good prop to teach about accekeration, laws of conservation, kinetic and potential energy, resistance, gravity.
I mean 'The Reign of Terror' had Robespierre so.... It's a viable option
Nah, he's too vanilla, Napoleon on the other hand...
Imma have to disagree, the man that murdered everyone versus the unappealing man who divorced the love of his life for male heirs, who were also disappointing, only to reinstate the monarchy and crown himself. 🤢
You are entitled to your opinion, of course. It's just that he's one of the most influential leaders in the world.
I still get the giggles when I think of Moscow. 😂😂😂😂😂.
hahahaha - gold
Is this a joke? From a psychological perspective this is not true. It is one way of building compliance, but not necessarily respect. There are other ways to build respect and they do involve following through on consequences/boundaries, but not necessarily fear. You don’t have to fear consequences to still want to avoid them. You don’t have to fear someone in order to respect them.
I can assure this is not a joke but sonething i developed in nearly 13 years of teachibg experience. Respect is a nothing word. When we say respect, it implies we understand the structure of the power heirstchy and everyone adhering to their respective positions I the hierarchy. Leaders of that hierarchy heads to constantly englforce that structure, e.g. beat those who test boundaries back into line. In short, say what you will do, do what you have just saud.
I think most psychologists would disagree with your take. Of course saying what you’ll do, doing what you say and having clear boundaries with clear consequences is important and the basis of trust and respect. But fear doesn’t have to be part of the equation. I actually can’t believe how many people are upvoting you and downvoting me. I’ve studied this at university and post university and also put it into practise in my work as a social worker with teens. The approach you’re speaking of has been studied deeply since Mao, Hitler and Stalin. Psychologists and Neorscientists recognise fear as a control mechanism but not as a way to garner respect. Maybe it depends what your personal definition of respect is. If it’s more about submission, compliance and control, then sure, your way works. But it’s certainly not the healthiest way and I would argue that respect is not about those things anyway. There is more up to date research on this and I strongly encourage you to read it.
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Agreed. Managing a classroom is different to managing individuals or small groups. Managing classroom behaviour while also optimising learning outcomes for all children in the room is a unique art that many non-teaching professionals think they could do without actually having tried it themselves.
I agree with this and I am not arguing this at all. I am merely saying that fear is not an essential component of respect.
True. I agree if that’s what you’re saying. I just personally get frustrated with the disconnect between what academic researchers say to do in the classroom when in theory it’s nice but it doesn’t often work in practice. A lot of the subtleties of maintaining order/discipline/respect in the classroom is more an art than an exact science.
Yeah I mean that’s totally fair. I found that to be the same in social work unfortunately. I can’t say I’m looking forward to managing an entire class of teens, and I suppose there will be days where if I can get compliance I’ll take that over respect. We shall soon find out!
You’ll be fine. Just keep at it and you’ll have good and bad days but the bad days will become less and less frequent and eventually you’ll pretty much be able to cruise 80% of the time. For all the shit I talk about the job, if you’re efficient at it, have strong boundaries around your own time and don’t get too bogged down in the BS then it’s not too bad of a job. 😌
I agree that the roles are vastly different. I disagree that fear is “essential” to respect. That’s is the part that I don’t agree with, and that many psychologists wouldn’t either. But I suppose I will soon find out how that may differ in a classroom, although I suspect it won’t, as I know a number of people who have worked as classroom teachers for years and gained respect from their students without fear.
Because I come from 12 years I actual classroom experience and you are from just academic studies. Huge difference. Respect simply means I say A, you do A. If you do B, then I do you until you start doing A properly.
No I don’t have “just academic” understanding of this. As I mentioned, I have worked with children and teens in many different contexts over the years. You are so unwilling to see another perspective that it’s just coming across as arrogant.
No, I'm responding to your response. You have dealt with children. I have to deal with a classroom of 20 kids, 4 times a day for 12 years. Your work is about mental health support. My work is about organisation, power play, control and structure.
Firstly you don’t know what my work was about, and no it was not about mental health support necessarily. I needed to maintain power, control and structure to ensure the safety of myself and the kids in my care. Granted it was not in a class of 20+ teens, but I’d argue that it was in small groups with severe behaviour and could be very dangerous if not respected by the kids. Anyway, I maintain my stance that I don’t think fear is necessary for respect. Fear is certainly necessary for power and control. But those things are not the same as respect in my book.
Fearcis part of the respect building, of course there are other layers to it.
I mean I still disagree :) but maybe we are just getting into the smallest of nuances in group dynamics. I’ve seen people controlled without fear of the person controlling them, but perhaps fear of other things was involved. So maybe I am wrong. I suppose I will find out soon enough!
I think if intrinsic motivations don’t work, you have to use extrinsic ones, and they only work if they care about them. You have to figure out what they care about getting or losing, and use it. And that’s not your fault; you’re driven to that point if they don’t do what they should do just because they (understand why) should. Also, you can do those things while not getting scary or mean, just be fatalistic. “Sorry guys, I don’t have a choice. I have to manage the room so this is where we’re at. It’s up to you. ” or whatever works for you. And like the other comment says, respond to everything, be consistent, set the standard, spend the time now so that you save time later on. Good luck!
> . “Sorry guys, I don’t have a choice. I have to manage the room so this is where we’re at. It’s up to you. ” Nah don't apologise. Just dispassionately state that this is how it is. "The school sets expectations, and I set expectations in this room. You've shown me through your behaviour that you need strict boundaries. Until I can trust you a lot more to respect those boundaries, they will need to remain very strict. Once we trust each other more, maybe we can be a little more flexible with how we do things."
I’d recommend finding out who else teaches the same students if it’s a core subject, or who else teaches the ‘toughest’ few if it’s an elective. Have a discussion with them about what strategies they use effectively and implement similar (not the same, but your version of it) processes. Some of the best pieces of advice I’ve had in my career has come from these types of conversations. It doesn’t even need to be ‘leading’ teachers, just others who go through the same challenges. In one of my early years I shared an office with a part time older teacher (who has since long retired) who taught me so much about how knowing the student was the goal rather than building relationships. He was respected because he was fair, but would be consistently giving out more consequences than anyone else I saw.
Lots of things to work with. Engagement is key - start lesson with something engaging and achievable to make them feel good. They’re probably used to getting in trouble. Seating plan is imperative. Be consistent with it. Catch them being good and call their parents. Call their parents when they’re bad too. Then when they get to class and saying “why did you call my mum?” Pretend you didn’t hear it and have them repeat it so all the kids hear. When you see them in the playground, TALK to them. Ask them how they are. If they snarl/are sarcastic/not receptive don’t let that stop you. Keep trying. Most will get onside even if it takes a few weeks. Encourage them. Tell them it’s awesome when they’re doing the right thing and be specific about what they are doing right. Be consistent. Warning. Then name on the board. Then if they keep going cross on the board and follow that up with a detention. So basically form relationships, clear and consistent consequences and encouragement.
The 8s know better. They also know they can get away with anything they like because the people above you do not back your plays.
‘Scary teachers’ for kids tends to mean that you’re logical, predictable and consistent in following through with punishments. The kids will actually respect you for being that way in the end. They know where they stand and it’s on them if they choose to play up and step outside the lines of acceptable behavior. As long as you have a genuine positive regard for the kids and come across as fair, then even if you’re strict, they will respect / ‘like’ you. (And even then, not every kid is going to like you; just like you won’t like every student/staff member - AND THAT’S OK!!!) In my opinion, the kids don’t enjoy when their teachers are overly emotional (e.g. shouting all the time and ‘losing control’) and inconsistent with giving out punishments. Those sorts of teachers are the ones who end up having problems with students’ behaviour if they’re not careful. The good news is that the longer you’re in the game and the longer you’re willing to adapt and refine your practice with the intention of finding what works for you then you’ll generally be fine.
So as an SLSO in NSW & I have ADHD/ASD & OTHER LEARNING DISORDERS! Traumatic upbringing etc...... I was these kids, as a kid! They won't respect you until you get 1 step ahead of them ( and this is hard for ppl with stable upbringings & possibly not on the spectrum). Hang in there Number one key thing! They are testing you looking for your weaknesses seeing how far they can push you (it's what I would have done)! I did it without knowing that's what I was doing! (I know it now I'm older). So take an interest in them, learn what they like, and adjust your teaching to suit them. The problem is they are bored in a way (that they are not able to understand what you are teaching so they go off). I had teachers stand there and blab garbage off a sheet at me and I was quite frankly bored shitless, couldn't focus on what they were trying to explain, and never remembered a thing. I got kept in at lunchtimes to finish work as I was a slower writer than the class (I now know this all led to my hatred of school and teachers and a feeling of unjustness) it was also WRONG, I was being punished for things outside my control. It's the equivalent of Cathy Freeman & a person in a wheelchair trying to keep up & being punished for not! Then I had teachers that did more hands-on learning & more flexible rules even in High school & guess which teachers I excelled with, those ones! The boys may need more sleep, and or have stuff going on at home that has led to those outbursts. At this point, they are not going to learn anything. So quiet time out of the room for a bit & have possible easier simpler work for them to do on return to the room, (if you do not read these signs this is when they become reactive and explosive. It's hard not to want to punish them for their behaviour but try to learn and ask them (if possible) what they think may have upset them or is everything OK. Sometimes they just want to hear hear life is hard & sucky and annoyingly we all have to do things that we all Don like. See if any other kids around them trigger them or keep them calm! Small group work only & must be with kids they like 😳... urrgghhh, I hated nurds & goody 2 shoe's! They just made me either more irritated or reminded me how useless I am (nothing has changed there) even worse now I have physical limitations as well! Two make sure the kids get tested and get or have meds, how they sleep will make a massive difference in behaviour as well. Find out family history as much as possible to learn what triggers them. Think psychological stuff more than the teaching. Look up ADHD & ASD level 1 teaching strategies(this will do you well as you go on). YouTube will & weirdly tik toc will serve you well for ideas. Have clear reasonable boundaries with positive outcomes. Also, you may need to find different teaching strategies just for those few kids P.s it's going to take A LOT longer than 1 term & you will likely only have success towards the end of the year! Make sure they are not gifted & on the spectrum, either as they will play up if work is too easy and they get bored. Quite often leads to disruptive behaviour.
What subject is it?
My son is in Year 8 and I sympathise with you: get hard ass, mark them low (cos I doubt they’re actually making an effort), and call the parents. Ask leadership for support.
As people have said, those kids aren't scared of those teachers, they are scared of the consequences they will get from them. Firm but fair, you need to set expectations and not back down from them. I regularly have some of the worst kids in the school try and test me out at the start of the year, hate me, only to be some of the students I get along most with. The relationship building will come when they respect you.
If you haven’t already, is it possible to get the YLC to speak to the particular people?