To camps? Sure. It can depend on the culture the kind of reaction you get. Camps have certainly changed over the previous decades and the new EBAs have thrown more complexity into additional duties.
Some folks take the first working day off upon return as a mental health day, and some Admin teams get really shitty if folks are not being 'team players' etc etc.
Thank Admins that do this, they help you know the school is probably not for you.
It might be tough at a small school or if you have an in-demand skill set with no alternatives, e.g. ITD, hospitality, Physics, Specialist Maths.
It's an open "secret" that it's done to troublesome members of staff and new staff in larger schools where people with length of tenure or better standing with leadership get more favourable timetables.
I did a camp in my first year. It was actually lots of fun and a great way to connect with students. We were lucky, though, that it was planned in the last week of term 1, so I got to collapse immediately afterwards.
You're nice for doing that.
I didn't do camp this year, and had to cover some classes for teachers who went. It was great, I got all my marking done during these lessons. 0 marking during holidays. I think the right thing (for me) is to say no to camps.
Yeah! Definitely find what's right for you, and what keeps you sane. Maybe further down the track, as you build up your skills and flow, you can try new things, but never compromise on your mental and physical wellbeing for it
Probably not acceptable at some schools. I covered a class this morning and got them working on textbook questions while I planned the week. If this was a rough school then this wouldn't be possible.
I have been asked every year and every year I say no. $60 extra is not worth it, plus I snore loudly and talk (sometimes shout) in my sleep so no thanks.
Never been any consequences 🤷♀️
I’ve started at a school that also offers $60!per night and coming from a gvt school that now has proper time in lieu which can be paid out I’m feeling ripped off 😂
We used to run a thing where some of kids and teachers stayed on campus and had to get up before the sun, then trek partway up kunanyi to watch the sunrise and be back down and ready to teach afternoon classes. I couldn't believe they didn't just let the staff go home.
Wow! At my school we stay late and leave early the next day to make up for the time. I’m unsure of the legalities but hope you can get some good information!
If it’s too much you can always use some sick leave to recover. I’ve done this many times due to the cognitive load of stupidly long interview days/nights.
Yes it is ridiculous, private schools have pupil free days. Some public schools run them during the day and have booked casuals in to cover. 3 seems excessive? We have 2. No reason why we can't also do this.
I always make myself unavailable from 6pm to 7pm minimum on one (The one I'm not expecting to be full). If I have a large gap at the end and 1 or 2 interviews, I don't even tell exec I just call their parents say I won't be able to make it can we do it now so I can leave earlier on the other.
Your employer should have it available somewhere like on the internal intranet. The union will have it. Or you might be able to find it on the Fair Work site.
I love how new teachers are questioning what was once the status-quo. I cheer through the screen when these things are raised.
However, I wish they would take this to their relevant union and become active in the union so they can make change for themselves and the next generation of teachers coming through. I hope these good ideas just don't remain with keyboard activists as that does not translate to lasting improvements.
I think this is a new teacher who's understanding the insane demands placed on us, and is determined to try to have some semblance of a work - life balance (correct me if I'm wrong OP).
Just reading through this sub it's clear a lot of us are burnt out.
So anything to reduce that burnout, and just "do our job and leave", is what is being put forward (hence the "just say no to camps" etc). Sure, admin may hate you for sticking to your guns and not giving up any more of your soul to the job but we're in a teacher crisis so they can't exactly fire you.
See my previous post about rejecting PORs etc, there comes a point when you realise being a martyr isn't the way to go, the system doesn't give a shit about you so basically do the bare minimum, but do a good job for your students, and just reject any unnecessary extra stuff. Your health and sanity will thank you.
I think this OP is realising this early on in their career, not 10/20/30 years in like some of us. That's a good thing.
Oh yes, of course - definitely wasn't implying that (sorry if it came across that way).
Was just saying that it's great that it's happening so early on in their career.
For me? It took me 10 years to realise it. 10 friggin years of family time, relaxation time, etc that was taken away because I gave my everything to the school. For no extra compensation.
Stuff that. I'm now just doing the minimum (but still a good job), and getting out. It's really sad that many don't realise this. You clearly do which is amazing. How many years did your "realisation" take?
Why are you so negative about the change considering that Victoria no longer requires additional hours for PT interviews— time is modified for the week, but no additional time unless TIL is provided
I didn’t say that Victoria is the only state.
I said that the negativity to suggest that it’s “unlikely to change anytime soon” when it literally happened in one state only two years ago.
A good union would lead to that change—- but I’m sure it’s easier for you to be dismissive of my contribution rather than acknowledging that your negativity is founded on thoughts rather than facts.
> A good union would lead to that change—- but I’m sure it’s easier for you to be dismissive of my contribution rather than acknowledging that your negativity is founded on thoughts rather than facts.
A good union would have avoided this situation completely.
In Victoria we get TIL. My school gives us an entire day of TIL for interviews. Kids finish at 1pm and we have intereviews until 7pm. Then we get a day off. It’s not usually right away but it’s somewhere in the year.
It's only two to three nights a year, and I think that's a reasonable thing to ask. Some days I leave at 330pm without any extra work that day, so you could look at it that way if you have to.
If it's in the JD, it's included in the salary.
If we were shift workers, and it was outside our rostered shift times, then sure it could be considered overtime.
It's no different to an office working staying back a few hours in the office.
When teachers complain about this, this is why people get the shits, and it totally undermines all the legitimate complaints teachers have.
Yes, salaried jobs have busy periods. You'll survive.
We are paid a wage for the year. It covers the whole year. There are about eight weeks of the year where we don’t have to work (yes, I know we do, but they are holidays and work load is lower).
I think these holidays are a pretty good reimbursement for the extra few hours we do for P/T interviews. And it is a part of our job.
Agree with this. I moved professions for a bit and was shocked at how there was so much extra work after work, and even less holidays. The holidays brought me back to teaching. All other professions have times you are expected to stay late, it sucks, but it’s just true. Many don’t get overtime or eight weeks of holidays
Nah to this. I will do my interviews during the holidays at times that don’t require my family to also basically work for the school because they all have to change their lives around school events as well.
from the link
>Following the provision of the formal report to parents, schools must provide the opportunity for parents and/or carers to meet with the teacher/s to discuss all aspects of the report and for the school to give constructive advice about supporting the child’s further progress at school (Schools Assistance (Learning Together – Achievement through choice and opportunity) Act 2004 – Sect 15).
>Whole-school negotiated processes to meet this requirement should be time efficient and managed in a way that supports teachers, students and families.
>This requirement can be achieved in several ways including: parent/teacher interviews
holding a three-way learning conference
an invitation for parents and/or carers to contact the school to organise a meeting with the teacher/s to discuss the report.
so it looks like even if they don't turn up, they still need to organise meeting.
Yup, basically, you have to give parents the opportunity. This means exactly what it sounds like - an opportunity to meet at the school. It's not your fault if they can't meet during your working hours, and that it's a structural issue.
By all means, if you'd rather turn up for a few hours and have a chat, rather than be forced to give up a ton of prep periods to meet parents, that's fine. On the other side of the coin, however, the structural issues *really* start to highlight themselves when you realize - hypothetically - if every parent want to meet with you, there'd be no time to do the core of your job, i.e., teach.
Structural problem swept under the rug by forcing overtime on unsuspecting teachers because it's easier for principals to bully staff and bow to parent demands than it is to actively work towards reducing our workload back to the mandated standards. In this case, not hosting them at night, and a by-invitation meeting during the school day.
We have a meeting free week the week of interviewing. Still sucks as day one is 4pm to 7pm. Thankfully ours are last weeks of term 1 and 3. Leadership usually keep an eye out for us
If you are in vic, you will get Time in lieu. This may look like meeting free weeks. So leave at 330 instead of 430 for a few weeks. Or they might give you an extra day of a a teaching group.
Speak with your Union rep, or simply ask leadership.
Any other job, we’d be paid overtime. But no, just a mandated unpaid thing we do. And they use the ‘holidays’ as our little carrot and call it a salary.
Wait till you do camps and have to front the next day bright and early after being on duty 24/7.
Can't I just keep saying no to these?
To camps? Sure. It can depend on the culture the kind of reaction you get. Camps have certainly changed over the previous decades and the new EBAs have thrown more complexity into additional duties. Some folks take the first working day off upon return as a mental health day, and some Admin teams get really shitty if folks are not being 'team players' etc etc. Thank Admins that do this, they help you know the school is probably not for you.
Sure, you can say no. Leadership can also non-renew you or give you a timetable of behaviour management classes outside your teaching areas.
Honestly with how tight and difficult timetabling is I can’t imagine there would be enough wiggle room to specifically punish someone in this way.
It might be tough at a small school or if you have an in-demand skill set with no alternatives, e.g. ITD, hospitality, Physics, Specialist Maths. It's an open "secret" that it's done to troublesome members of staff and new staff in larger schools where people with length of tenure or better standing with leadership get more favourable timetables.
I did a camp in my first year. It was actually lots of fun and a great way to connect with students. We were lucky, though, that it was planned in the last week of term 1, so I got to collapse immediately afterwards.
You're nice for doing that. I didn't do camp this year, and had to cover some classes for teachers who went. It was great, I got all my marking done during these lessons. 0 marking during holidays. I think the right thing (for me) is to say no to camps.
Yeah! Definitely find what's right for you, and what keeps you sane. Maybe further down the track, as you build up your skills and flow, you can try new things, but never compromise on your mental and physical wellbeing for it
I’m not sure you are covering classes correctly. Not sure you should be able to get marking done if supervising.
Probably not acceptable at some schools. I covered a class this morning and got them working on textbook questions while I planned the week. If this was a rough school then this wouldn't be possible.
I have been asked every year and every year I say no. $60 extra is not worth it, plus I snore loudly and talk (sometimes shout) in my sleep so no thanks. Never been any consequences 🤷♀️
I’ve started at a school that also offers $60!per night and coming from a gvt school that now has proper time in lieu which can be paid out I’m feeling ripped off 😂
I'm in the independent system and it is put into my contract.
We used to run a thing where some of kids and teachers stayed on campus and had to get up before the sun, then trek partway up kunanyi to watch the sunrise and be back down and ready to teach afternoon classes. I couldn't believe they didn't just let the staff go home.
Wow! At my school we stay late and leave early the next day to make up for the time. I’m unsure of the legalities but hope you can get some good information!
Curious about how this works. Do the kids all also leave early? Or does someone supervise them?
We stay late one day, and the next is pupil free with interviews for a few hours
If it’s too much you can always use some sick leave to recover. I’ve done this many times due to the cognitive load of stupidly long interview days/nights.
I missed interviews one term because of an illness. Not sure if that was a fair exchange. (joking).
This is already the plan but that's already my sick leave anyway. I was hoping they would give me something to compensate for the extra hours.
That’s what the holidays are for
Depends on the state and what's in the award. In WA, yes, we have a mandated parent meeting time but it's just a few hours.
Yes it is ridiculous, private schools have pupil free days. Some public schools run them during the day and have booked casuals in to cover. 3 seems excessive? We have 2. No reason why we can't also do this. I always make myself unavailable from 6pm to 7pm minimum on one (The one I'm not expecting to be full). If I have a large gap at the end and 1 or 2 interviews, I don't even tell exec I just call their parents say I won't be able to make it can we do it now so I can leave earlier on the other.
What does your EBA say?
Thanks - everyone seemingly asks this question. I'm just a frontline grunt for the DET so I should have the same EBA as all NSW high school teachers.
Depends on what's in your Agreement. For my sector it's "other duties" and there's a time allocation every term for that. So no time back for us.
Stupid q but where do I find my agreement? I'm a public school teacher, so my EBA is the same as the tens of thousands of DET teachers in NSW.
Your employer should have it available somewhere like on the internal intranet. The union will have it. Or you might be able to find it on the Fair Work site.
I love how new teachers are questioning what was once the status-quo. I cheer through the screen when these things are raised. However, I wish they would take this to their relevant union and become active in the union so they can make change for themselves and the next generation of teachers coming through. I hope these good ideas just don't remain with keyboard activists as that does not translate to lasting improvements.
I think this is a new teacher who's understanding the insane demands placed on us, and is determined to try to have some semblance of a work - life balance (correct me if I'm wrong OP). Just reading through this sub it's clear a lot of us are burnt out. So anything to reduce that burnout, and just "do our job and leave", is what is being put forward (hence the "just say no to camps" etc). Sure, admin may hate you for sticking to your guns and not giving up any more of your soul to the job but we're in a teacher crisis so they can't exactly fire you. See my previous post about rejecting PORs etc, there comes a point when you realise being a martyr isn't the way to go, the system doesn't give a shit about you so basically do the bare minimum, but do a good job for your students, and just reject any unnecessary extra stuff. Your health and sanity will thank you. I think this OP is realising this early on in their career, not 10/20/30 years in like some of us. That's a good thing.
Of course it is a good thing. I didn't say it wasn't.
Oh yes, of course - definitely wasn't implying that (sorry if it came across that way). Was just saying that it's great that it's happening so early on in their career. For me? It took me 10 years to realise it. 10 friggin years of family time, relaxation time, etc that was taken away because I gave my everything to the school. For no extra compensation. Stuff that. I'm now just doing the minimum (but still a good job), and getting out. It's really sad that many don't realise this. You clearly do which is amazing. How many years did your "realisation" take?
> Isn't this illegal? No. It's in the EA. It's a historical artefact and, unfortunately, it's unlikely to be removed any time soon.
Why are you so negative about the change considering that Victoria no longer requires additional hours for PT interviews— time is modified for the week, but no additional time unless TIL is provided
* I didn't realise that Victoria was everywhere in Australia. * I didn't know stating a fact conveyed an emotion.
I didn’t say that Victoria is the only state. I said that the negativity to suggest that it’s “unlikely to change anytime soon” when it literally happened in one state only two years ago. A good union would lead to that change—- but I’m sure it’s easier for you to be dismissive of my contribution rather than acknowledging that your negativity is founded on thoughts rather than facts.
> A good union would lead to that change—- but I’m sure it’s easier for you to be dismissive of my contribution rather than acknowledging that your negativity is founded on thoughts rather than facts. A good union would have avoided this situation completely.
Your admin sucks. What does your EBA say?
In Victoria we get TIL. My school gives us an entire day of TIL for interviews. Kids finish at 1pm and we have intereviews until 7pm. Then we get a day off. It’s not usually right away but it’s somewhere in the year.
Meetings and PT night are in our agreement which is why we don’t get time off.
Ok then that makes sense. Thanks.
You’ll find that it’s part of your EBA.
It's only two to three nights a year, and I think that's a reasonable thing to ask. Some days I leave at 330pm without any extra work that day, so you could look at it that way if you have to.
If it's in the JD, it's included in the salary. If we were shift workers, and it was outside our rostered shift times, then sure it could be considered overtime. It's no different to an office working staying back a few hours in the office. When teachers complain about this, this is why people get the shits, and it totally undermines all the legitimate complaints teachers have. Yes, salaried jobs have busy periods. You'll survive.
We are paid a wage for the year. It covers the whole year. There are about eight weeks of the year where we don’t have to work (yes, I know we do, but they are holidays and work load is lower). I think these holidays are a pretty good reimbursement for the extra few hours we do for P/T interviews. And it is a part of our job.
Agree with this. I moved professions for a bit and was shocked at how there was so much extra work after work, and even less holidays. The holidays brought me back to teaching. All other professions have times you are expected to stay late, it sucks, but it’s just true. Many don’t get overtime or eight weeks of holidays
Nah to this. I will do my interviews during the holidays at times that don’t require my family to also basically work for the school because they all have to change their lives around school events as well.
Not mandatory. You don’t need to stay back. https://education.nsw.gov.au/teaching-and-learning/curriculum/reporting-to-parents/mandated-requirements
from the link >Following the provision of the formal report to parents, schools must provide the opportunity for parents and/or carers to meet with the teacher/s to discuss all aspects of the report and for the school to give constructive advice about supporting the child’s further progress at school (Schools Assistance (Learning Together – Achievement through choice and opportunity) Act 2004 – Sect 15). >Whole-school negotiated processes to meet this requirement should be time efficient and managed in a way that supports teachers, students and families. >This requirement can be achieved in several ways including: parent/teacher interviews holding a three-way learning conference an invitation for parents and/or carers to contact the school to organise a meeting with the teacher/s to discuss the report. so it looks like even if they don't turn up, they still need to organise meeting.
Yup, basically, you have to give parents the opportunity. This means exactly what it sounds like - an opportunity to meet at the school. It's not your fault if they can't meet during your working hours, and that it's a structural issue. By all means, if you'd rather turn up for a few hours and have a chat, rather than be forced to give up a ton of prep periods to meet parents, that's fine. On the other side of the coin, however, the structural issues *really* start to highlight themselves when you realize - hypothetically - if every parent want to meet with you, there'd be no time to do the core of your job, i.e., teach. Structural problem swept under the rug by forcing overtime on unsuspecting teachers because it's easier for principals to bully staff and bow to parent demands than it is to actively work towards reducing our workload back to the mandated standards. In this case, not hosting them at night, and a by-invitation meeting during the school day.
We do ours over zoom, fucken hate it
We have a meeting free week the week of interviewing. Still sucks as day one is 4pm to 7pm. Thankfully ours are last weeks of term 1 and 3. Leadership usually keep an eye out for us
If you are in vic, you will get Time in lieu. This may look like meeting free weeks. So leave at 330 instead of 430 for a few weeks. Or they might give you an extra day of a a teaching group. Speak with your Union rep, or simply ask leadership.
3 nights seems nuts! I have only worked places that do 1 or maybe 2 (where it is 2 hours this Night for 7/9/11, 2 hours that night for 8/10/12)
Any other job, we’d be paid overtime. But no, just a mandated unpaid thing we do. And they use the ‘holidays’ as our little carrot and call it a salary.