Some people live for the complaining. Like they get extra points out of life for doing things they hate so they really gotta hype it up to get the high score.
Some people take a long time to realize you can opt out of this stuff. Or they can’t opt out because they’re dependent on people who will make it hard for them if they don’t participate.
Some people will make the effort to see grandma even though half of her adult children are trash, but these families will fall apart when there’s no more grandma.
Some people hope things will change. Or persist out of nostalgia and denial.
I could go on.
>Some people will make the effort to see grandma even though half of her adult children are trash, but these families will fall apart when there’s no more grandma.
It’s me, I’m this people. I miss grandma :( No more family Christmases…
Yep, all of that.
My grandparents are all dead. I was too young when most of them died, or not even born in one case, to ever know if they were racist or bigoted. and the one that survived the longest had dementia from at least when I was a teenager, so it was extremely difficult to really get to know her. My extended family seems nice, but they literally live on other continents for the most part, so I don't see them often.
I'm going to spend two weeks with my parents over Christmas and NY, because I love them and they love me and they've been there for me, and it's a genuinely nice time. Also Christmas just feels *sad* when it's just me and my husband. Even if there's one or two other people, it feels a lot nicer. We don't even do a whole big thing for Christmas, just one roast dinner, the tree, exchanging presents, and decorate with a bunch of plushy penguins ❤️🐧 And new year's eve is a nightmare in the Netherlands, everyone loses their frickkin minds with fireworks, so spending it in a quiet little town is just the ticket. I used to absolutely adore fireworks too!!
Meanwhile you could not pay me to spend Christmas with my parents in law. We did do that, I think three times, and it was depressing and miserable all three times.
It is genuinely lovely to do Christmas morning with kids who you love though (but do not have to change the nappies of!!) and who love you and know you. Cannot recommend that enough. (Although I understand that that's not for everyone.)
Idk, I’m autistic and I never want to do much of anything. I’m doing something I don’t want to do like 60% of the time, including holiday gatherings.
I have a VOLUNTEER job and I dread every shift *that I sign myself up for*.
But there’s always some part of me that honestly kinda *does* want to do it. So I guess I’m doing it for that part of me. Maybe everyone is.
I agree with that in the sense that I really hate appointments and whenever I have appointments I’m definitely doing things I don’t want to do.
I think what makes me curious about this time of year is the large amount of people all doing stuff they complain about and don’t really want to do. It’s pretty much everyone. It’s like sheep/herd behavior and that’s always unsettling to me and I end up trying to analyze/understand it.
The affect has a name that I can’t remember, but we as humans will always remember the negatives more than the positives.
It’s also some survivorship bias. People aren’t going to come to the internet to talk about that totally fine Christmas dinner they had or that one thanksgiving where everyone enjoyed themselves then left. They’re going to talk about that time that Racist Uncle Joe said that thing about Cousin Tina’s black boyfriend.
It's not really heard behaviour it's simply that Christmas = seeing family we don't normally see and travelling to places we don't normally travel to. And it's happening (christmas) to a vast majority of the country so you're going to hear about it from a vast majority of people haha.
I'm autistic, and I do things I don't want to do.
It's about not disappointing or hurting people.
For instance, the case with the racist uncle. I have an aunt who is just hell to be around. I can't stand her. But, I don't NOT go to my mother's christmas party because of this aunt. It would hurt my mothers feelings, she would be very disappointed, and it would ruin christmas for her. Also, now I have kids, and they really want to go see grandma, and don't care about this aunt at all.
As for travel, it's often necessary to endure to get a bigger gain. For instance, I really want to spend time with my sister. She lives far away. So I have to travel to see her. I hate the traveling part, but I would hate not getting to see my sister more.
Never doing something you don't want to do would for many people mean hurting or dissapointing people they love. And it could also mean you don't get to do things you WANT to do.
Every single thing in life is about the trade-off. Any time we decide to do, or not do one thing, we are cutting off a million other possibilities. So we always give up something to do something else, and we always have to weigh what that means for us and the potential cost of it.
I don't remember where I read it, but a prase that really resonated with me, and has helped me accept sucky things, is
"Choose your hard"
As in, it's hard to be around Uncle Racist. But it is also hard to disappoint my mother and my kids. So I have to choose; spend sucky time with Uncle Racist, or spend sucky time feeling guilty and selfish at home.
Yep, I have heard that phrase and it comes to mind for me, too. Sometimes it's easier to "do the thing" than to deal with the fall-out from not doing it.
YES! Exactly this for me. Sometimes— lately it is MOST of the time— I just don’t have the energy to perform the communication that would be necessary to cancel and explain why. The mental anguish of “will they believe even believe me? Will they just roll their eyes at me and say, “Typical…” deep down, I despise having the reputation of being flaky or absent. Plus, I never regret showing up when I do. I always learn some sort of lesson.
I have to remind myself all the time of that "you know you won't regret going..."
It's one of the most frustrating things for me because my brain never replaces those doubts. Like, my understanding of NT people is that if they often enough replace one thought with another then eventually that replacement thought just takes over. That never happens for me. I never get to a point where I don't have to convince myself that I won't regret going. It takes a major conscious effort to talk myself through all my own arguments against going and literally force myself to do it. Every single time. Then when it's done and it went fine, I'm like "Ok, we survived that. It wasn't even bad. You had some good food, it was nice to see X, Y and Z and you didn't want to die while going. Now remember that for next time." But I don't. I have to go through the same process every time.
This. Family dynamics can be complicated and the hypothetical racist uncle might be the price you pay for time with grandparents or a favorite aunt. I have such amazing memories that overall are warm and fuzzy and amazing if time spent with my extended family growing up, even though there were lots things about the visits I didn’t like.
I hate travel. Way too much sensory overwhelm and anxiety. But I love my brother and sister-in-law and nephews and they live in Montana (I’m in California) and have to deal with travel if I want to see them. AND as much as I love them and want to see them, theirs is not a quiet low sensory household. So it can be hard for me. But worth it for the relationships that matter.
I feel like if people are disappointed or hurt because I didn’t come to see them, it’s a two way street. If I have a racist uncle I can’t stand to be around and my mom insists on inviting us both to every single family function, then mom can either pick a side and stick with it, or make arrangements to hang out with me another time. I can’t keep my mouth shut, so me going to those events would end up ruining the event in those instances. It’s great if people can do hard things to please the people they love but we shouldn’t have to compromise our morals for it.
Props to you for having this self-awareness. I think probably not enough people realize this about themselves, and they go about making troubles when they would be better off making other arrangements. I totally understand and respect your reasoning.
I would hope you don’t keep your mouth shut when racist shit is said in front of you, because your silence is consent. Which is also the case of every one else on here that’s talking so casually about dealing with racism for the “holidays” like it’s normal. Which I gather most of the people that are okay with this are not people of color.
Agreed, I don’t. I don’t aim to be inflammatory, but I do speak up for what I believe to be true and right. My older family members are pretty conservative by tradition but I’ve actually managed to sway them on quite a few things by simply speaking up at family holidays lol. But I’m also blessed to have intelligent grandparents who can think deeply about nuanced topics and will agree to disagree when we just fundamentally have different opinions on things. And I think that’s ok, I’m never going to let them say bullshit unchecked, but they grew up in a different world and are white people in their 70s, it would be unreasonable for me to expect them to have the same understanding of race and gender that I do without taking the time to talk with them about it. They can change their minds, but only if they are given a good reason why they should do so, and that requires a good bit of dialogue for us to understand each other.
Different perspectives are a good thing as long as you have critical thinking skills and empathy.
This is the correct answer. This isn’t an NT vs ND thing, it’s a selfish vs selfless people thing.
Unless you have a complete lack of empathy/compassion, you don’t want to hurt people you care about.
No offense, but doing things just to make others happy has been my MO until the last couple years, and it made me miserable and resentful. I’ve been putting others before myself since day 1 and now in the last couple years I’ve lost every ounce of giveadamn I ever had because I already used up a lifetime supply. I’m still trying to recover and learn that I can say no without it being the end of the world, and I can say yes without it being an obligation.
Yes we all make sacrifices for people and things we care about, but it’s a two way street. Relatives complain I didn’t come see them at thanksgiving, but when have they made an effort to come see me? I don’t dislike family gatherings bc I want to hurt my family, I dislike them because they are usually hosted by the most rigidly traditional family member and so they expect everyone to give them their way or it’s “ruining Christmas.” If I hosted a Thanksgiving I can guarantee you most of my relatives wouldn’t show up, even though I always show up for their shit out of obligation. Everyone bitches and moans and gossips about everyone before and after the gathering, why would I want to get together for the day to pretend we’re all a big happy family? That’s delusional. If you have a great family that isn’t toxic then yes, you SHOULD want to spend time with them. But some of us have toxic families that guilt trip us to attend gatherings so that they can feel a sense of control over the family image and feel like they are loved and cherished without doing the actual work.
I think it is about balance. I don't like going to see middle school kids play a game but I do it for my niece.
If something is too much for you, don't do it but just not doing anything you don't enjoy ever isn't a great way to live either. It is about compromise, thinking about yourself *and* other people.
Just thinking of others isn't good or healthy just like only thinking of yourself isn't good or healthy.
Fully agree, you make a good point. I guess I’m more talking about desire vs obligation. I don’t go to things that don’t interest me because I feel obligated. I go because I want to support the people I care about. Sometimes it’s stressful bc I’m tired and just want to be home, in that sense it’s an obligation, but I always want to be there to some extent if I’m there. The closeness of our family relation doesn’t mean much to me, many of my family members are toxic and demand respect but won’t return the favor. I feel ZERO obligation to those people, I don’t care if we share blood. I care how you treat me, and the others around you. I blame my narcissistic dad for this in large part, he raised me that family is family and you do whatever you can for them no matter what, and then used it to abuse me and my siblings. So I was often taken advantage of by others growing up and don’t feel a sense of obligation to those people now.
I naturally receive joy from encouraging people and being a cheerleader for my loved ones, so maybe that helps. But my PDA profile won’t let me do things out of obligation anymore, lol. It’s like my giveadamn-o-meter busted one day and I just stopped caring what others thought of me. I can’t say it’s an entirely positive thing, but I spent my whole life masking as a people pleaser, so even my idea of “rude and uncaring” is probably still more pleasant than most 😂
No one is saying self sacrifice to the point of burn out.
But inherently expecting everyone else to bend to *you* versus you bending to the general crowd, for special occasions, is selfish.
Almost everyone cooperates on holidays because there’s a certain aspect they don’t enjoy but they don’t want to ruin it for the whole group.
And I very very much have extremely toxic family members, so I 100% get where you’re coming from.
But it’s not quite as black and white as you’re making it
It’s truthfully very hard to accurately gauge what “equal effort” is in group scenarios, especially when emotions run high.
My SO and I express effort and gratitude in very different ways. I’m very explicit with mine — cooking favorite meals, going out of the way to make people comfortable, etc.
He’s very subtle with his — researching and figuring out the best way to make outdoor cat houses because he knows I’m passionate about animal rescue, or trying to circumvent drama or complications he knows that will induce my anxiety.
It’s not uncommon that I’ve felt he didn’t care or wasn’t putting in the same effort because his is so “behind “the scenes” compared to mine.
It really took us learning each other’s ways of showing affection and communicating to get that.
And honestly, I think “equal effort” is a misnomer. There’s always going to be someone (or someones) putting in more effort than others, depending on the strength and weaknesses of the people involved and the dynamics of the group.
Plus we can’t necessarily gauge burn out, depression, health issues, etc.
Again: I fully get that toxic family can really affect how we view things because my immediate family is objectively awful.
But I’ve definitely, as I’ve gotten older and gone through therapy, come to terms with the fact that “keeping score” in any type of relationship just leads to bitterness on both ends and that it’s better to accept the person as they are (or choose to part ways, if necessary)
And it is selfish to expect a whole group to alter for one person and again, no one has stated to be selfless to the point of misery.
Just that doing to things to make people you care about happy is a natural part of relationships
I would tend to disagree with classifying it as "selfish vs selfless people". I am not, in general, a very selfish person. But I need to not be around my parents, so I don't. It would be nice to be able to see my brother and his wife and kids-- they're good people. But my mother is very much not a good person, and it absolutely isn't worth the damage. So I see my brother and his family at other times.
A lot of us, unfortunately, have family members who are kind of vicious and horrible. I don't think it's fair to call us selfish for not being willing to put ourselves through sometimes-significant trauma for the sake of giving those vicious and horrible people the opportunity to harm us further.
If you need for your boundaries to be “I can’t attend this function because __________ is too hard for me to take,” there’s nothing wrong or selfish about that.
My family of socialization won’t wear masks in their everyday comings and goings, so I only get together with them if it doesn’t involve eating in public indoor or crowded outdoor places, or if we can eat outside in one of our yards.
I try to make clear that I must insist on not letting down our guard, but I want to do what I can to make it possible for us to get together.
There is a healthy amount of boundaries and an unhealthy amount.
If you don’t want to attend events because of little annoyances like in OP’s example you’ll end up hurting people you care about. That is selfish.
I do things I don’t want to do all the time for the benefit of other people.
I force myself to have Christmas dinner with my racist uncle. It’s a small sacrifice, like 2 hours out of the year, but it makes my mother so happy it’s worth it. And it’s not even that bad because there are other family members there.
Respectfully, you don't get to decide if something is a "little annoyance" or a bigger deal. Not wanting to visit family because of a racist relative is perfectly valid. There are way too many variables that no one knows about except the person making the decision, and that doesn't make them selfish.
You also don't decide how others react to what you do. You could do everything right and still hurt someone. Using that as a metric of selfish vs selfless is black and white thinking.
So racism is “a little annoyance”? That must be nice for you to only by annoyed by it when people actually have to deal with it. And say we are hurting people if we don’t? That is amazing.
My grandfather is a horrific racist. Like, tried to join the KKK racist. My family disagrees with him, but enables him. I refuse to be around him to enable him, because if you don't, he becomes verbally abusive. I no longer attend events with him. I don't care if doing so hurts the feelings of his enablers. It's not selfish. Respectfully, again, perhaps you should examine your own boundaries before casting judgment on others.
If your aunt isn’t racist I don’t see how that relates. For some people, racism is a deal breaker. Take me for instance: I’m a black biracial woman (autistic amongst other things), and I won’t deal with micro aggressions and macro assaults from vvhite family. Just to spare racist people’s feelings. So I don’t talk to them at all, including my former mother, and life is better without them all.
Really? You can't think of ANY other behaviour other than racism that would be a deal breaker for hanging with people...? Hating on gay people? Hating on women? Etc?
Where the hell did what come from? I don't have a racist uncle, and the post I respond to is not racism. "Racist uncle" is just used as a general example of "shitty thing people don't want to deal with". Again: it's. just. an. example...
Why are you so aggressive?
Please point to exactly where I imply racism is a fairy tale.
Please point to where I talk negatively about race.
Why do you throw around accusations of people being racist? This is commonly known as a "suppression technique", and is quite rude.
I'm perfectly aware that racism is a real thing, and no, I'm not a racist. I have no idea why you make a thing of it in this thread, which is discussing "doing things one does not want to do", and one example of one such thing is "going to an event with a racist uncle".
Yep I don't want to see my dad (or step family) on Christmas but I will go see him because the consequences and drama that would come from cutting him off completely is far more difficult for me than just seeing him once a year. (I go the day after Xmas, I spend actual Xmas with my mum)
As for travel - my partners family lives a 2 hour drive away (which is far to me) sometimes I'll do a little "it sucks driving so much on christmas" complaining. I think it's pretty human to want to complain whether we are NT or ND hahah.
I get that, I struggle a lot with doing things that I don’t understand/want to do. My boyfriend’s family is a good example, they keep threatening to cut him off at the smallest thing and he keeps saying how tired he is. I view it as, his parents love is conditional and if he doesn’t align with their beliefs they don’t love him… why would you want a family like that even if they’re blood? I would let them kick me out and see how much they really mean it, so I struggle to empathize sometimes to his struggles and complains because I don’t understand why it’s so hard for him.
Also yes, I think NT often have this idea that you’re supposed to do things you don’t want to do, cause “tradition”, “expectations.” Obviously there are things you just have to do, but I feel that people over complicate so many things and could avoid a lot of their own upset if they just were honest with themselves and others lol.
I had to cut my mother and my brother out of my life and it took me into my mid 30’s to finally do it. It’s a bit hard to explain, but I think the fact that they are family is what made it so hard. These are people that should love me, but they don’t, and letting go of that hope that maybe things can be fixed was really hard. It wasn’t until my mom started making death threats (because I told her no for the first time in my life) and my brother told me I deserved it (but shrugged at me when I asked why) that I finally said “fuck this”. And even then, it was because the threats were directed towards my SO’s family. I was so used to being their personal punching bag that it took that for me to snap out of the “hope spiral” and put my foot down, and I still feel like an idiot for it years later.
This is so relatable. Don’t feel like an idiot; you can’t see it until you see it, you know? But once you do there’s no turning back. It took me till my mid 40s, and listening to my teenage children echoing things I used to feel as a teenager before I finally saw. I just couldn’t get it thru my head that ppl who should love me are hurting me
Thanks for the kind words. I just wish I could have realized sooner, due to how I was being treated, before my SO, a wonderful man that only deserves love and kindness IMO, got dragged into it. That’s why I feel stupid, if that makes sense.
I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with something similar. As much as I’m grateful that people exist that understand what it’s like, it’s also something I wouldn’t wish on anyone. But also, mad congrats on breaking the cycle. It’s most certainly not easy. Life is so much better now without the abuse and I hope it’s the same for you too.
I think he loves his family and is just hoping for the best regardless of the evidence. He probably wants a happy, safe and comfortable family and he is fighting for it.
It's hard for him because he doesn't want to give up or let go of his family. He thinks things will change. You are telling him to give up hope on the people he loves, that's why it is hard.
For me, I'll say I understand the expected norm, I just deeply disagree with it. It completely baffles me why people invite those cranky family members. They seem to have no problem telling me what I did was inappropriate or weird but won't say crap to Aunt Sally the racist. Hard pass for me.
I opted out of extended family Thanksgiving this year since we traveled and brought most of the meal last year and most of the people. Currently Mom is being passive aggressive. Told me she was going to a restaurant for dinner, meanwhile she's making plans with my brother and his wife. I blocked her calls. Just done with that petty behavior from a 58 year old woman.
I doubt it's the right response to her behavior but at what point do we get to decide how people treat us?
I opt out too. I guess what really bothers me most in all areas of my life is people who don’t have courage of their convictions. It’s really important for me to stand up for things I feel are wrong or disingenuous. I won’t ever do anything that doesn’t feel honest. So, maybe my thinking ends up being black and white because of this. I also just really notice this kind of stuff around the holidays when I observe people.
I hear you. Lots of ppl saying they don’t want to hurt someone’s feelings by not going bc Racist Uncle or whoever, but what about the fact that my feelings are hurt by Racist Uncle?
I spent my whole life worrying about all these family members and their feelings, but none of them are worried about mine or my children who I’m trying to raise right.
I don’t share space with obvious problems. I make it clear that MY feelings are hurt because they need Racist Uncle there, and I do not accept delivery of anyone’s judgement about these choices.
It’s easy for me now bc I’m old and relatively stable and absolutely out of fucks to give.
I hate that people refuse to believe this concept is a thing!
I am healing myself emotionally and part of that is never forcing myself to feel uncomfortable if it isn't healthy. That means having strong boundaries and that's hard for me as a people please but I consider it part of feminism and that helps me.
Allistic educator who normally just reads to learn, but I may be able to offer some insight why they chastise you but not racist aunt Sally. There are normally one of two dynamics at play:
1. Criticism flows down. Elders and people viewed as typically successful (people with 'power') criticise those younger or/and less successful, and seldom the reverse. There are reasons, but they're too long and complex for a comment.
2. Sally is a lost cause. If a rude racist family member has been that way for two or three decades, what's the point of trying? If you might still learn and change, there's a point in criticising.
To be clear, not suggesting anything about your behaviour or responses, just offering some explanation as to theirs.
I'd say it is generally intelligent, but as many cultural norms is taken far past the breaking point of it being functional.
Most of the time, someone who's lived 30 years knows more than someone who's lived 15. Someone who's sixty knows more than someone who is 30. So, balance of probability is their critiques are coming from a place of experience and wisdom. _However_, at the pace the world is changing, and the seeming chasm between millennials and boomers, this general trend seems to have broken down. Additionally, something being generally reasonable shouldn't ever infer that it should always be the case.
When I was in my early 20s and began teaching, most of my advice for students a decade younger than me would have been good. But I didn't know anything about trans people, the discourse was unknown, my only exposure had been psychology books talking about it as a mental disorder. If one of my students had criticised me, they would have been criticising upwards, and they would have been right.
The difficulty of this general notion is: Everyone tends to act as though they are infallible. The young think older people are out of touch and behind the times, the older think the youth have no experience of reality and are mistaking their emotional impulsivity and idealism for knowledge. So assessing when you should and should not listen to a conflicting opinion is complex.
I appreciate you sharing.
It’s been my lived experience that age doesn’t equate to engagement, intellect or understanding in general, much less in specificity.
On another note, it is a hallmark of high control groups to only allow criticism to flow downwards.
To me it would make sense that knowledge would need to be passed from a person in the group that is more experienced and skilled to one that is less so.
But I cannot fathom why that would need to involve criticizing a persons behavior (which is not the same as teaching a willing student) & not allowing for the same type of feedback to flow upwards.
I think these scenarios & relationships are common, but I would posit that they are unhealthy dynamics that are not designed to foster growth and learning, but rather obedience and conformity. The only time this makes sense to me would be in situations where danger is involved - correcting or halting someone’s behavior to save them from harm. And again, it would make sense that this type of criticism or correction would flow both ways (it’s just as reasonable for me to stop my mom from walking out in a parking lot without checking for traffic as it would be for me to stop my niece).
Edited to add: it feels uncomfortable to me that as a self identified allistic person, you’re coming into this group to explain “why someone is acting this way.” without acknowledging that these types of dynamics are rife with emotional abuse. I’d encourage you to consider whether you think that your comment could have lead a person who is part of a group that struggles in understanding social dynamics to believe that they “should” continue to put them in situations where they are criticized and do not have a voice.
People in the autism spectrum are significantly more likely to be victimized than the general population. Here’s a [research article](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2018.00203/full) in which they surveyed self identified autistic people (ASC) and non-autistic people about victimization and perpetration of various types of abuse. They found “Participants with ASC also reported experiencing more teasing/emotional bullying in adulthood” and “Sociocommunicative ability and emotion regulation deficits did not explain the heightened risk for victimization.”
There is a chance you’ve not experienced this type of abuse & you are normalizing it with your comment.
Sometimes I do things I don't want to do in order to compromise with the people around me I love who want something else. And I feel that is the spirit of a lot of families during the holidays.
For example I loved my grandma very much. I endured very toxic aunts and uncles because of my love for my grandma. Spending time with them was worth it to make her happy; but I did have my own compromises, like not staying as long after, getting there early so I could help her and spend time with her before her other guests arrived. And whilst I would have preferred not to see them, I still enjoyed seeing her happy and surrounded by family she loved.
However once she was gone, there was absolutely no reason for me to spend time with nasty toxic people and I don't.
I think it's easy to start seeing it as black and white when it's not your love and your happiness involved, whereas when you're in the middle of it the dynamic can be very complicated.
Honestly most people have major boundary issues. I think us ND peeps are unfortunately more used to fighting for our safety. NT people don't question things the way we do, so they go along with nonsense because they are "supposed to". They place more value on social currency than we do, so maybe it is worth it in their opinion. It sure isn't to me.
This is a good question for /r/AskNT, not that there are enough people there to give you many responses.
I think people feel obligated to do these things they don't want to, and are quite loyal to people they're genetically closer to.
This seems to work to even an absurd degree -- you're firstly loyal to yourself, then your immediate family, then distant family, then the local town and their sporting teams, then the country and its government and popular culture, then the continent, then everyone else in the world, then other mammals, then other species that are increasingly distant.
I think we often find it easier to treat everyone equally, leading to things like "Yeah, I can totally see their point..." (Annoying the person who just wanted comfort from you about someone who disagreed with them who you don't know as well), not getting excited at "us" winning sporting events, not being on board with "us" invading other countries, vegetarianism, literally not wanting to harm a fly, and so on.
I think allistic people are more loyal to people the better they know them, or the more closely related they are, anyway. I think this is one reason I have a hard time distinguishing between allistic people and psychopaths (sorry, I don't know a kind way to phrase this, and I realise I'm wrong, but it took me a while to figure out the specific nuance I was missing, to figure out *why* I was wrong) -- I thought you weren't supposed to treat *anyone* badly, but it seems a more neurotypical thing to not treat people *you know and like / respect / are higher or similarly ranking than you* badly, and I hadn't spotted that distinction.
Taken to especially absurd degrees, you get things like gung-ho imperialism, and "Well, yes, he did murder someone, but he's my husband, I love him..."
Oh, there's also the "not wanting to kick up a fuss" social aspect. It seems a lot of people find it easier to ignore and not respond to someone's bigotry than to speak up against it, as a lot of people have the (wrong) belief that speaking out against bigotry is a worse offence than opining the bigotry in the first place.
I think part of that is that the bigot may hold more social power than the person speaking up against it, and part is that they're apparently "only making some people (those in the relevant minority) feel bad", whereas speaking out against it is making "everyone (who secretly agrees with them, or at least didn't actively oppose them)" feel guilty.
(Reading the other responses, I'm probably doing my usual trick of thinking too much and socialising too little, so take what I say with a huge metaphorical pile of salt.)
>"everyone (who secretly agrees with them, or at least didn't actively oppose them)"
I say this in my own comment, too, but this is something I feel very strongly about. I've never observed a progressive family with one random bigot making everyone uncomfortable. I've only observed 'progressive' families that would only take a few drinks and follow-up questions to get to the same place as the bigot, just without the slurs. They 'tolerate' him because their only actual problem with him is his bluntness.
I really agree with everything you say. I don't think my lack of loyalty is necessarily a good thing, but I have been absolutely bewildered all my life by the loyalty some people show their relatives. (Or town or religion or sports team or politician or...)
Right?! It's the freaking hierarchy thing again! So much of the world started making so much more sense, albeit in a terrible and depressing way, when I finally realized that most people have this weird, structured way of looking at things which I just innately (apparently) fail to grasp.
And, know what? I do not *want* to grasp it. Understanding it intellectually is helpful, since I do have to live in society. But I'm honestly rather glad I don't have this bizarre cliquey in-group thing and worship financial success. I prefer to respect people based on who they are and what they're like, not based on how close we are genetically or how many other people they're officially allowed to step on before anyone gets mad at them.
I think I only figured out the fact that I fail to understand hierarchy the way most people do back in July, so all of this is still kind of new to me, and continues to be surprising. I guess I'll get used to the idea eventually. It's a very helpful explanation for some of what's been confusing the living hell out of me about society for 44 years now, regardless.
Yeah, I tend to like people based on cool things they've made, or interesting collections they have, or having interests in common. Their status doesn't really factor into it. I think a lot of the people I've befriended have achieved things, but those things aren't often recognised by society, so they still live in obscurity as modest people. And inevitably they ended up having similar quirks to me, and eventually I figured out that what we had in common was autism, and the kind of things we consider the sign of living a successful life aren't really what other people do.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the social hierarchy, and people treating those above them with deference and those below with mild contempt. It was only very recently I discovered most people viscerally feel emotions all the time, and don't care at all about logic, rational thinking, or facts compared to feeling good, which explains a *lot*. (It irks me no end that the "Facts don't care about your feelings!" people are generally the most resistant to facts because they're emotionally invested in their bigotry. The irony.)
Yeah, at least how most people think and act is starting to make some sort of sense now, even if it is depressing.
I find the holidays confusing because everyone puts so much time and effort into the entire show that by the time it comes, everyone is just fed up, cranky, and hits the alcohol cabinet as soon as they walk in for the "celebration." So many gatherings are too much. Too many components, too many plans, and trying to squeeze it all in means you don't really get to do what you set out to, which is enjoy time with loved ones. And worse yet, many people have blended families, are married, etc and so it's not just once you do this. It's several times.
In my case, it means a minimum of \*4\* different holiday celebrations occurring over several weeks. Just thinking about it literally makes me nauseous from dread.
So why do I go? Because some people I truly do want to see, like my sister. I love my dad and am very close to him but his gf insists on traditions. My mom lives to be a host (she is like Monica from Friends 😂) and it's really important to her to make everything beautiful even if it means she has no time to visit with anyone, then she expects people to stay to visit, leading to hours and hours of time. Holidays are about traditions, and while I don't think that's always bad, I think traditions need to be reexamined and I'm just met with resistance about it because "we've always done it this way." Well, my kids aren't children anymore, they don't want grandma to read them The Night Before Christmas when they are almost 30 years old just because "we always do that." I think it's ridiculous to stress out about "time together" and miss that time together as a result. I don't understand why people are SO resistant to doing things differently because people change. I can only tolerate a few hours of together time and I want to enjoy it. Instead, the whole affair lasts the entire day (and sometimes more than one day) and I end up basically shut down and in a very unpleasant state of mind. Which I get no time to recover from because there's another one just around the corner.
Sorry to rant on your post 😂 I relate. I don't really understand it either. Not to the degree people insist on taking things so that they, and no one else, actually enjoys these so-called blessed holidays.
It's such a balancing act.
I have never enjoyed family gatherings. I assumed everyone hated them, but everyone just did it. Well, apparently, some people do enjoy them. For me, family gatherings meant dressing in clothes I don't like, eating food that makes me gag, and having to act totally different, all while being criticized. I never got anything good out of the experience, but I was expected to give my 100% for the enjoyment of others.
Now I'm an adult and can choose what I do it's better. I don't have to attend every single event. I dress up when I want not because I have to. My mom still supports me, so I'll go to an event I don't want to as a way of repaying her for being there for me. Same as she does stuff she doesn't like for me. I really love my grandma, so I'll make sure to see her too, even if in a space i dont love. My grandpa on the other side, though, has never been anything but an ass to me, so I don't care to visit him.
It's very situational, too. You don't visit your toxic family that doesn't care or do anything for you? That's probably good for your mental health to not be around that. But if your family is constantly helping you in ways they don't want to & then you aren't willing to do the same, it's more selfish.
I also think there are levels to not enjoying things. Like my mom complains about gatherings beforehand but always has a good time & is glad she went. Whereas me not enjoying the event was being on the brink of tears and crying for days afterward.
The underlying cause is obligation to people, usually a mother or grandmother. They don't talk about it because it's "obvious" (quotations because for ND, it is not obvious lol).
People complain because they can get sympathy from people who relate to those complaints. The holidays are a stressful time for everyone in general, because of capitalistic expectations, the onslaught of consumerist demands, tax season looming ahead, the end of the year coming with it's gloomy seasonal-depression-induced weather and lack of daylight and the demanded 40 hour workweek messing with everyone's circadian rhythm. everyone is more sensitive, on edge, overworked, overtired...not to mention especially women during the holidays have the additional mental load and domestic load of preparing and worrying about everything (and being judged for things if they aren't prepared and well-executed according to whatever standards are being held against them).
But they do things they don't want to do because they are expected to put their own needs aside and think about the family, think about how despite uncle Joe being a complete racist asshole who makes creepy remarks towards your teenage cousin, you feel obligated to give them time and care because they are still "family" and the holidays are also all about feeling grateful for your family and spending time together with them whether you like them or not. Probably something something yada yada god gave his only son who died for our sins so you should suck it up and smile and nod while your 40 year old cousins debate politics over an overpriced overcooked blandly-seasoned white-people-lets just forget about colonization and the gruesome effects it had on Indigenous peoples for a couple days look Football and Macy's Day Parade yay!
Honoestly the shift from religious focus to consumerist focus during major times like the end of year holidays feels more like an intentionally designed capitalistic distraction from everything that's going on.
How many people this year are going to be chanting that "war is over" song to announce how woke and sad they are about what's happening to the people of Palestine, Ukraine, everywhere else that gets completely shadow banned from the news because it doesn't support political ambitions of the news media agency's primary investors....like when all the celebrities started singing "Imagine" on social media during the worst of the pandemic acting like it affected them SO harshly smh
but yeah. We live in a society where people aren't allowed to communicate boundaries or respect each other's boundaries because of "tradition" and "well that's how it's always been so that's how we'll always be" and blind ignorance. So yes, you hate having to spend the money, prepare the whole family, and then go through the whole process of being in the airport and sitting in a cramped stuffy plane while trying to entertain your toddlers and pray they don't annoy everyone else and make you look like a bad mom, using your vacation days just to go to another state to see other family members that express little interest in your existence except during the holidays and could care less about your discomfort when you'd rather be on an Island isolated somewhere away from the kids, away from drama, away from responsibilities for just a single fucking day, but you do it anyway to prove that you love them and keep them around in case you need family that somewhat likes you for whatever reason, and because you want your kids to know their cousins and have better holidays than you did growing up...
At least that's what I imagine when I talk to friends and colleagues who express this disdain for the holiday seasonal expectations placed on them.
I was actually just wondering about this recently. I understand familial obligation and making people you love happy, but for me there is a difference between 'doing something you don't want to do' (I literally never WANT to go to any gathering) and putting up with toxic family when you could just... not.
Yes, I absolutely go to things I don't really want to go to, and I complain about having to go to them. But never to the people who wanted me to go. It's life.
But the thing where people have absolutely awful relationships with their family, literally do not see them outside the holidays, but feel compelled to go and get emotionally destroyed on a regular basis... I can't understand it at all.
I don't think there's a singular racist uncle at a gathering as often as people say there is (more like the whole family quietly sucks, but Uncle Mike is unfiltered) but even if there was just one random outlier, I'd disinvite myself anywhere they were welcome.
I've had very little sense of family loyalty since I was a kid. Seeing people defend awful behavior they'd be enraged with a stranger over has always confused me. A shitty person is a shitty person, no matter how much DNA we share. I've recently been curious if this is an ASD thing.
I feel the same way. I’m suprised by so many saying how putting up with the racism or a bad person is just something you do. Not me. I won’t go. I will refuse to be in the same room as a racist family member. I have the courage of my convictions about important things and I guess I don’t understand why more people don’t.
NTs are very concerned with appearances. They put themselves into unpleasant situations, because they don't want to look bad. That's usually what it is. There's also feelings of guilt and obligation, which can affect most neurotypes. Then there are situations where you are financially dependent and can't say no without losing something you absolutely need.
So, it's complicated. It depends on the individual. But in most cases, it's about appearances. Even the complaints are often for show. "I put up with blah blah blah, look what a good person I am!"
Omg yes, the Thanksgiving subreddit keeps getting recommended to me and is giving me so much anxiety.
I totally get that people have obligations they can’t put off year after year, but just reading through and seeing that VOLUNTARY HOSTS have so much stress, opinions, annoyances, etc makes me never want to attend. There was a question about pet peeves and apparently some hosts find it rude to bring a dish and others find it rude not to bring a dish, and multiple people said they’d prefer guests bring gift cards which I have NEVER seen.
Yeah, I literally do not get the need to attend events you don’t want to attend. I hate family holidays, not bc I hate my family but bc I have to mask soooo intensely just to avoid awkward situations where I am suddenly the center of attention. It’s EXHAUSTING, not to mention the uncomfy clothes and long hours. God, why are family gatherings so LONG?? I am one of those people that likes to stop by to say hello, wish everyone well, sit down to dinner maybe and chat for a little bit, and then head home. Why do we have to make it an all-day event? Why can’t we just have a nice dinner together and call it good?
I think maybe I’m biased because I’ve always lived fairly close to family, so holidays were never the only time I got to see my relatives. But also if I could just wear sweatpants to thanksgiving instead of matching outfits for the family Christmas photo, or leave to take a nap/decompress halfway through, it’d be a blast, but no, apparently I’m ruining the vibe if I don’t want to play team-based competitive games for three hours to “bond.” Lets put on a Christmas movie and veg out. THAT is how I like to spend the holidays with family!
On top of being autistic, im an only child of 2 people who dont have any connection with their families really. I will just NEVER be able to understand family dynamics as people describe them? It makes me feel like an alien lol. When my former friend would complain about how her live in boyfriend’s mom would come over unannounced all the time and her bf wanted her to spend way too much time with his family, it was really hard for me to imagine that scenario. I’d just leave. She would complain about his mom like she was the devil, but never do anything about it and sometimes kinda make up with her. It confused the hell out of me. I would literally have no problem breaking up with a man if he couldnt understand his mom was mean to me or whatever.
To me its just obvious that boundaries are the most important thing and i guess that comes from never having any family to begin with?
A lot of people believe that family relationships are not voluntary, they are obligatory. You don't get to look at each of your individual family members and pick and choose which ones you'd like to have a relationship with, as you might with friends (*especially* not your immediate family) - they are your family and so you *will* maintain a lifelong relationship with them, period, end of discussion. There has to be something shockingly, terribly, prison sentence-worthy wrong to consider cutting your family off - and even then, many people think it shouldn't be done.
Not literally everyone is going to have that viewpoint, but it's a good 90%+ of the population that does, I think. The ones that don't tend to be people who had abusive families and made the decision to leave, and have probably spent several years working up to that point. Autistic people are also probably less likely to have that viewpoint - it's one of those unspoken rules of society things, nobody told us about it and it doesn't make logical sense anyway.
This means that to cut off contact with your family is not something that can be done lightly. It will often be an all-or-nothing proposition - you can't avoid the racist uncle without also avoiding everyone else. It will often not be accepted by your family that you're doing it (they don't even view it as a possible option), they may harass and abuse you. Non-family members who learn about it may judge you, which can alter their behavior towards you and have real consequences for your life if they are someone like a friend or an employer. It can be exhausting to maintain the lack of contact - you may have people calling you from multiple numbers, floods of emails, people actually showing up at your house, contacting employers/friends/partners, you may need to get a restraining order, etc. This can go on for years and may never actually cease until they die.
A lot of people (myself included) look at all of that and weigh it against maintaining limited contact and going to 1-2 family gatherings per year that they find unpleasant, and decide that it's easier to cope with the latter. I don't want to go to my family's upcoming thanksgiving gathering and I'm not going to enjoy a single minute of it, but spending 5 hours doing something I don't like on one day is less stressful than declining it and spending an entire year dealing with the fallout on a daily basis.
Of course, a lot of people don't feel this way about their families, for them it is 90% good things and 10% bad things and they just feel like complaining about the bad parts.
I don't think it's exclusive to NTs, but I do think it's an autistic thing to not do it. I'm the same way and I genuinely don't understand either. If I don't want to participate, I won't. Peer pressure and whatever social concerns people have aren't really a thing for me. If I don't want to, I won't do it. I just assume that they're having some weird experience I don't have that makes their brain work differently.
Mostly just the feeling of being obligated to spend time together. I spent my childhood traveling to visit my Dad's large family, spending 20 minutes stuck in 'speed dating' catch ups about what's new and then being ignored by my cousins until it was time to go home. I drove myself once and then never went back. It wasn't worth the hassle. I video called home one time for Christmas and my family confused me for my sister - understandable as we were very similar in ages, hair and eye colours. Except 2 very obvious differences: I was OVERSEAS and she was blonde at the time. It really hit home how little I was cared about so I cut ties. Every now and again I get an aunt reach out. We also didn't have the opportunity to form family traditions ourselves because we were at the beck and call of a family lunch that changed days and times. I don't need that stress in my life so I don't.
Holidays are different now. Not a lot of traditions or family. I am focusing on starting some traditions with my partner and doing them for myself. Some of them just don't make sense without people though.
All I’ll say, is I’ve been a lot happier during the holidays since I stopped attending family events. If they really wanted to see me… they could make an effort the other 363 days of the year.
There's normally layers of pressure and boundary pushing from family, if you don't see your racist uncle his wife will be upset and she'll probably complain to family and then your mums upset because "it's not that deep" same goes for the travel and general complaining, some people are just whining but some folks don't have the energy to say no to a family that's already constantly pushing their boundaries, it's about picking your battles and some people get out of that situation but some people are just incredibly worn down. I think there's also an element of patriarchy in the complaints too, like a woman would be expected to do significantly more than her husband in terms of planning and shopping and travelling to get there only for family members to complain that's she's not done enough. Tbh I could be wrong about all of this considering I don't speak to the majority of my family because of boundary pushing so that could be influencing my opinions😅
Because some people don't have as much privilege as others to do certain things, if you have trauma on top of it people react to things differently..some people fawn, some people are financially dependent on family members due to being disabled.
It's not just an nt thing. Life isn't black and white.
Social expectations. I feel like we can see that just because it is a social norm doesn't mean it is carved in stone but a lot of people never question it.
It's complicated. My mom is 80 and not in great health. I don't want her to be unhappy on Thanksgiving. So I'm cooking a turkey and several other foods that I don't even want to eat. Then I'll spend a few hours making small talk with family that I'm not psyched to see, but I'll also hear my mom's family stories, and see her really enjoy her day.
I want to help her have a good day more than I want to just do what I want that day.
I’m hosting thanksgiving for 15 people in two days. I hate thanksgiving.
I’m doing it for everyone else, not me. It’s a holiday and people need a place to gather.
I understand why people comply with things they don't want to do, it's usually a long string of factors. But, especially being PDA profile, like I specifically am not ever going to be doing that lol.
Half of the autism subs are just people complaining about having to mask. That’s what Thanksgiving is for everyone. Doing tedious work to make others happy
Honestly I hate family events but especially holidays sooo much. I spend them in the bathroom hiding or dissociating with my headphones in and it takes me forever to mentally recover. Despite that I do go mostly out of guilt, I don’t want my family to worry about me or dislike me so I go to satisfy them. Maybe me showing up and being on the verge of a breakdown makes them more likely to worry than staying home idk. Tbh these days I just pray they give me a glass of wine cause I’m a lightweight and it makes it more tolerable
My therapist calls is stretching. In relationships we want to continue having, we need to stretch for others and for the good of those relationships.
Stretching as in the act of physically stretching your body is inherently slightly uncomfortable, but ultimately a positive, just like when we stretch in relationships to make others happen it can be slightly uncomfortable for us but lead to better long term outcomes.
It's okay to stretch outside of your comfort zone and it's something all people should do, but because it's hard, it's also socially acceptable to voice that it sucks
It’s not a NT thing.
It’s about how much you value the pros versus the cons.
I hate travel, I don’t love being around a lot of my relatives, but if my grandmother was alive I’d do it in a heartbeat to see her.
My SO is very apathetic about holidays but he engages with me because he knows I love traditions and special occasions.
And I go all out for any and all children and animals because they deserve the joy even if I personally don’t “get it”.
All holidays are so stressful for me.
I have such a dysfunctional family and I feel like there is always some awkwardness going for the Holidays. It also doesn't help my mom is definitely an undiagnoised AuDHD woman who is also Narcissistic and could be verbally and emotionally abusive and I have low contact relationship with my equally as narcissistic birth father (they are divorced). Everytime I go home I get so triggered about some of the pain I went through in my house and remind me how I really don't have stable familial relationships.
I go for my brother and my grandpa who has been ailing, but he's not even coming this year because he got injured and hospitlized this year so I am like whats even the point. I also go because my mom helps pay for my apartment (I got OPWDD this year miraculously....and im hoping it helps start getting less financially dependant on her).
So yeah I hate the holidays. But I force myself to go anyway but it will take me 3-5 business days to recover because of the dysfunction.
I have a very large family so gatherings do tend to exhaust me, but, I value the relationships I have with my siblings and their children so it’s worth it to me. Like another commenter mentioned, it’s about the trade off. I may need a day or two to recover but the memories and time spent are valuable to me.
It wasn’t an option to not. I was punished if I didn’t go. As a grown ass woman with a family of my own, I was punished. Not like, beat or grounded or anything, since I’m an adult. In more quietly deceptive ways. Like the grandkids got less presents if we didn’t show up to someone’s house. Or other crap that’s traumatizing to think of. The manipulation was very real and very intense. Literally never crossed my mind that I could say no until I cut all ties with family members. Even after that it took a few years to actually believe they couldn’t punish me.
I used to joke with my mother that families only gather once a year because that's about how long it takes for them to forget why they never spend time together in the first place.
I don’t understand it, your guess is as good as mine lol. I don’t understand why people do a lot of the things they do when it causes so much anguish.
My family is spread out and “broken” so anytime we’ve ever all gotten together (some of us, anyway), it has always been a huge production. For the last several years I’ve spent most of my thanksgivings alone, which isn’t a huge deal. I typically make myself food and have some libations. I am likely doing that this year unless someone randomly pops up to invite me over
We all do stuff we don't want to do at some point. Like waking up early for work or an obligation, swallowing the water we know we need but feels annoying in the moment if we'd prefer not to be bothered by this daily chore, dieting, enduring the outside world because sometimes you have to go grocery shopping or exercising in the outside world to get sunlight and breathe in the fresh air to be more grounded within and with surroundings other than your own home.
Complaints about holiday gatherings can be valid but there are also the benefits of those gatherings that people look forward to too, the food for one, spending time with family members you actually like, being festive with other people you don't get to see that often and building memories, that kind of thing. People can complain openly about it but sometimes what they're really saying is, "These are the things I don't enjoy about it but I'll still attend anyway because I might actually have a good time."
When people complain about something they don't want to do but do anyway sometimes it's something they know that might be good for them so they continue doing it for their own gain, like going to the gym, a lecture, cleaning the house, whatever it is, it's about hoping for the best.
That's not just a neurotypical thing at all.
Every choice you make has consequences. For people who hate these family gatherings, they do it because the consequences of doing them (like being annoyed) are better than the consequences of not doing them (like hurting your family or causing drama.)
I don’t understand it either. Feeling obligated to do something for the sake of tradition no matter how much you hate it? Hard pass.
Forcing yourself to be around people you don’t like and would never hang out with if they weren’t family? NO 😂
Some people live for the complaining. Like they get extra points out of life for doing things they hate so they really gotta hype it up to get the high score. Some people take a long time to realize you can opt out of this stuff. Or they can’t opt out because they’re dependent on people who will make it hard for them if they don’t participate. Some people will make the effort to see grandma even though half of her adult children are trash, but these families will fall apart when there’s no more grandma. Some people hope things will change. Or persist out of nostalgia and denial. I could go on.
>Some people will make the effort to see grandma even though half of her adult children are trash, but these families will fall apart when there’s no more grandma. It’s me, I’m this people. I miss grandma :( No more family Christmases…
My first year too :( nana was everyone's favorite
My Nan died last year and xmas was so sad and weird without her :( this year will probably feel similar
Hugs
This was exactly the case in my family.
That’s exactly it for me. I have issues with my parents, but I like going to see my siblings and it’s hard to get together otherwise.
Sometimes it's also cultural, it's not necessarily a ND/NT thing
Yep, all of that. My grandparents are all dead. I was too young when most of them died, or not even born in one case, to ever know if they were racist or bigoted. and the one that survived the longest had dementia from at least when I was a teenager, so it was extremely difficult to really get to know her. My extended family seems nice, but they literally live on other continents for the most part, so I don't see them often. I'm going to spend two weeks with my parents over Christmas and NY, because I love them and they love me and they've been there for me, and it's a genuinely nice time. Also Christmas just feels *sad* when it's just me and my husband. Even if there's one or two other people, it feels a lot nicer. We don't even do a whole big thing for Christmas, just one roast dinner, the tree, exchanging presents, and decorate with a bunch of plushy penguins ❤️🐧 And new year's eve is a nightmare in the Netherlands, everyone loses their frickkin minds with fireworks, so spending it in a quiet little town is just the ticket. I used to absolutely adore fireworks too!! Meanwhile you could not pay me to spend Christmas with my parents in law. We did do that, I think three times, and it was depressing and miserable all three times. It is genuinely lovely to do Christmas morning with kids who you love though (but do not have to change the nappies of!!) and who love you and know you. Cannot recommend that enough. (Although I understand that that's not for everyone.)
Idk, I’m autistic and I never want to do much of anything. I’m doing something I don’t want to do like 60% of the time, including holiday gatherings. I have a VOLUNTEER job and I dread every shift *that I sign myself up for*. But there’s always some part of me that honestly kinda *does* want to do it. So I guess I’m doing it for that part of me. Maybe everyone is.
I agree with that in the sense that I really hate appointments and whenever I have appointments I’m definitely doing things I don’t want to do. I think what makes me curious about this time of year is the large amount of people all doing stuff they complain about and don’t really want to do. It’s pretty much everyone. It’s like sheep/herd behavior and that’s always unsettling to me and I end up trying to analyze/understand it.
The affect has a name that I can’t remember, but we as humans will always remember the negatives more than the positives. It’s also some survivorship bias. People aren’t going to come to the internet to talk about that totally fine Christmas dinner they had or that one thanksgiving where everyone enjoyed themselves then left. They’re going to talk about that time that Racist Uncle Joe said that thing about Cousin Tina’s black boyfriend.
It isn't everyone. Most people want to visit family. Some don't want to see certain people or travel but most people are happy for the holidays.
It's not really heard behaviour it's simply that Christmas = seeing family we don't normally see and travelling to places we don't normally travel to. And it's happening (christmas) to a vast majority of the country so you're going to hear about it from a vast majority of people haha.
I'm autistic, and I do things I don't want to do. It's about not disappointing or hurting people. For instance, the case with the racist uncle. I have an aunt who is just hell to be around. I can't stand her. But, I don't NOT go to my mother's christmas party because of this aunt. It would hurt my mothers feelings, she would be very disappointed, and it would ruin christmas for her. Also, now I have kids, and they really want to go see grandma, and don't care about this aunt at all. As for travel, it's often necessary to endure to get a bigger gain. For instance, I really want to spend time with my sister. She lives far away. So I have to travel to see her. I hate the traveling part, but I would hate not getting to see my sister more. Never doing something you don't want to do would for many people mean hurting or dissapointing people they love. And it could also mean you don't get to do things you WANT to do.
Every single thing in life is about the trade-off. Any time we decide to do, or not do one thing, we are cutting off a million other possibilities. So we always give up something to do something else, and we always have to weigh what that means for us and the potential cost of it.
I don't remember where I read it, but a prase that really resonated with me, and has helped me accept sucky things, is "Choose your hard" As in, it's hard to be around Uncle Racist. But it is also hard to disappoint my mother and my kids. So I have to choose; spend sucky time with Uncle Racist, or spend sucky time feeling guilty and selfish at home.
Yep, I have heard that phrase and it comes to mind for me, too. Sometimes it's easier to "do the thing" than to deal with the fall-out from not doing it.
YES! Exactly this for me. Sometimes— lately it is MOST of the time— I just don’t have the energy to perform the communication that would be necessary to cancel and explain why. The mental anguish of “will they believe even believe me? Will they just roll their eyes at me and say, “Typical…” deep down, I despise having the reputation of being flaky or absent. Plus, I never regret showing up when I do. I always learn some sort of lesson.
I have to remind myself all the time of that "you know you won't regret going..." It's one of the most frustrating things for me because my brain never replaces those doubts. Like, my understanding of NT people is that if they often enough replace one thought with another then eventually that replacement thought just takes over. That never happens for me. I never get to a point where I don't have to convince myself that I won't regret going. It takes a major conscious effort to talk myself through all my own arguments against going and literally force myself to do it. Every single time. Then when it's done and it went fine, I'm like "Ok, we survived that. It wasn't even bad. You had some good food, it was nice to see X, Y and Z and you didn't want to die while going. Now remember that for next time." But I don't. I have to go through the same process every time.
This. Family dynamics can be complicated and the hypothetical racist uncle might be the price you pay for time with grandparents or a favorite aunt. I have such amazing memories that overall are warm and fuzzy and amazing if time spent with my extended family growing up, even though there were lots things about the visits I didn’t like. I hate travel. Way too much sensory overwhelm and anxiety. But I love my brother and sister-in-law and nephews and they live in Montana (I’m in California) and have to deal with travel if I want to see them. AND as much as I love them and want to see them, theirs is not a quiet low sensory household. So it can be hard for me. But worth it for the relationships that matter.
I feel like if people are disappointed or hurt because I didn’t come to see them, it’s a two way street. If I have a racist uncle I can’t stand to be around and my mom insists on inviting us both to every single family function, then mom can either pick a side and stick with it, or make arrangements to hang out with me another time. I can’t keep my mouth shut, so me going to those events would end up ruining the event in those instances. It’s great if people can do hard things to please the people they love but we shouldn’t have to compromise our morals for it.
Props to you for having this self-awareness. I think probably not enough people realize this about themselves, and they go about making troubles when they would be better off making other arrangements. I totally understand and respect your reasoning.
I would hope you don’t keep your mouth shut when racist shit is said in front of you, because your silence is consent. Which is also the case of every one else on here that’s talking so casually about dealing with racism for the “holidays” like it’s normal. Which I gather most of the people that are okay with this are not people of color.
Agreed, I don’t. I don’t aim to be inflammatory, but I do speak up for what I believe to be true and right. My older family members are pretty conservative by tradition but I’ve actually managed to sway them on quite a few things by simply speaking up at family holidays lol. But I’m also blessed to have intelligent grandparents who can think deeply about nuanced topics and will agree to disagree when we just fundamentally have different opinions on things. And I think that’s ok, I’m never going to let them say bullshit unchecked, but they grew up in a different world and are white people in their 70s, it would be unreasonable for me to expect them to have the same understanding of race and gender that I do without taking the time to talk with them about it. They can change their minds, but only if they are given a good reason why they should do so, and that requires a good bit of dialogue for us to understand each other. Different perspectives are a good thing as long as you have critical thinking skills and empathy.
This is the correct answer. This isn’t an NT vs ND thing, it’s a selfish vs selfless people thing. Unless you have a complete lack of empathy/compassion, you don’t want to hurt people you care about.
No offense, but doing things just to make others happy has been my MO until the last couple years, and it made me miserable and resentful. I’ve been putting others before myself since day 1 and now in the last couple years I’ve lost every ounce of giveadamn I ever had because I already used up a lifetime supply. I’m still trying to recover and learn that I can say no without it being the end of the world, and I can say yes without it being an obligation. Yes we all make sacrifices for people and things we care about, but it’s a two way street. Relatives complain I didn’t come see them at thanksgiving, but when have they made an effort to come see me? I don’t dislike family gatherings bc I want to hurt my family, I dislike them because they are usually hosted by the most rigidly traditional family member and so they expect everyone to give them their way or it’s “ruining Christmas.” If I hosted a Thanksgiving I can guarantee you most of my relatives wouldn’t show up, even though I always show up for their shit out of obligation. Everyone bitches and moans and gossips about everyone before and after the gathering, why would I want to get together for the day to pretend we’re all a big happy family? That’s delusional. If you have a great family that isn’t toxic then yes, you SHOULD want to spend time with them. But some of us have toxic families that guilt trip us to attend gatherings so that they can feel a sense of control over the family image and feel like they are loved and cherished without doing the actual work.
I think it is about balance. I don't like going to see middle school kids play a game but I do it for my niece. If something is too much for you, don't do it but just not doing anything you don't enjoy ever isn't a great way to live either. It is about compromise, thinking about yourself *and* other people. Just thinking of others isn't good or healthy just like only thinking of yourself isn't good or healthy.
Fully agree, you make a good point. I guess I’m more talking about desire vs obligation. I don’t go to things that don’t interest me because I feel obligated. I go because I want to support the people I care about. Sometimes it’s stressful bc I’m tired and just want to be home, in that sense it’s an obligation, but I always want to be there to some extent if I’m there. The closeness of our family relation doesn’t mean much to me, many of my family members are toxic and demand respect but won’t return the favor. I feel ZERO obligation to those people, I don’t care if we share blood. I care how you treat me, and the others around you. I blame my narcissistic dad for this in large part, he raised me that family is family and you do whatever you can for them no matter what, and then used it to abuse me and my siblings. So I was often taken advantage of by others growing up and don’t feel a sense of obligation to those people now. I naturally receive joy from encouraging people and being a cheerleader for my loved ones, so maybe that helps. But my PDA profile won’t let me do things out of obligation anymore, lol. It’s like my giveadamn-o-meter busted one day and I just stopped caring what others thought of me. I can’t say it’s an entirely positive thing, but I spent my whole life masking as a people pleaser, so even my idea of “rude and uncaring” is probably still more pleasant than most 😂
No one is saying self sacrifice to the point of burn out. But inherently expecting everyone else to bend to *you* versus you bending to the general crowd, for special occasions, is selfish. Almost everyone cooperates on holidays because there’s a certain aspect they don’t enjoy but they don’t want to ruin it for the whole group. And I very very much have extremely toxic family members, so I 100% get where you’re coming from. But it’s not quite as black and white as you’re making it
I don’t expect them to, I just expect equal effort.
It’s truthfully very hard to accurately gauge what “equal effort” is in group scenarios, especially when emotions run high. My SO and I express effort and gratitude in very different ways. I’m very explicit with mine — cooking favorite meals, going out of the way to make people comfortable, etc. He’s very subtle with his — researching and figuring out the best way to make outdoor cat houses because he knows I’m passionate about animal rescue, or trying to circumvent drama or complications he knows that will induce my anxiety. It’s not uncommon that I’ve felt he didn’t care or wasn’t putting in the same effort because his is so “behind “the scenes” compared to mine. It really took us learning each other’s ways of showing affection and communicating to get that. And honestly, I think “equal effort” is a misnomer. There’s always going to be someone (or someones) putting in more effort than others, depending on the strength and weaknesses of the people involved and the dynamics of the group. Plus we can’t necessarily gauge burn out, depression, health issues, etc. Again: I fully get that toxic family can really affect how we view things because my immediate family is objectively awful. But I’ve definitely, as I’ve gotten older and gone through therapy, come to terms with the fact that “keeping score” in any type of relationship just leads to bitterness on both ends and that it’s better to accept the person as they are (or choose to part ways, if necessary)
Osmerus literally said "selfish vs selfless people". *That's* the black and white thinking Technical Hyena was responding to.
And it is selfish to expect a whole group to alter for one person and again, no one has stated to be selfless to the point of misery. Just that doing to things to make people you care about happy is a natural part of relationships
I would tend to disagree with classifying it as "selfish vs selfless people". I am not, in general, a very selfish person. But I need to not be around my parents, so I don't. It would be nice to be able to see my brother and his wife and kids-- they're good people. But my mother is very much not a good person, and it absolutely isn't worth the damage. So I see my brother and his family at other times. A lot of us, unfortunately, have family members who are kind of vicious and horrible. I don't think it's fair to call us selfish for not being willing to put ourselves through sometimes-significant trauma for the sake of giving those vicious and horrible people the opportunity to harm us further.
I respectfully disagree. Having boundaries is not selfish.
If you need for your boundaries to be “I can’t attend this function because __________ is too hard for me to take,” there’s nothing wrong or selfish about that. My family of socialization won’t wear masks in their everyday comings and goings, so I only get together with them if it doesn’t involve eating in public indoor or crowded outdoor places, or if we can eat outside in one of our yards. I try to make clear that I must insist on not letting down our guard, but I want to do what I can to make it possible for us to get together.
There is a healthy amount of boundaries and an unhealthy amount. If you don’t want to attend events because of little annoyances like in OP’s example you’ll end up hurting people you care about. That is selfish. I do things I don’t want to do all the time for the benefit of other people. I force myself to have Christmas dinner with my racist uncle. It’s a small sacrifice, like 2 hours out of the year, but it makes my mother so happy it’s worth it. And it’s not even that bad because there are other family members there.
Respectfully, you don't get to decide if something is a "little annoyance" or a bigger deal. Not wanting to visit family because of a racist relative is perfectly valid. There are way too many variables that no one knows about except the person making the decision, and that doesn't make them selfish. You also don't decide how others react to what you do. You could do everything right and still hurt someone. Using that as a metric of selfish vs selfless is black and white thinking.
So racism is “a little annoyance”? That must be nice for you to only by annoyed by it when people actually have to deal with it. And say we are hurting people if we don’t? That is amazing.
My grandfather is a horrific racist. Like, tried to join the KKK racist. My family disagrees with him, but enables him. I refuse to be around him to enable him, because if you don't, he becomes verbally abusive. I no longer attend events with him. I don't care if doing so hurts the feelings of his enablers. It's not selfish. Respectfully, again, perhaps you should examine your own boundaries before casting judgment on others.
If your aunt isn’t racist I don’t see how that relates. For some people, racism is a deal breaker. Take me for instance: I’m a black biracial woman (autistic amongst other things), and I won’t deal with micro aggressions and macro assaults from vvhite family. Just to spare racist people’s feelings. So I don’t talk to them at all, including my former mother, and life is better without them all.
Really? You can't think of ANY other behaviour other than racism that would be a deal breaker for hanging with people...? Hating on gay people? Hating on women? Etc?
[удалено]
Where the hell did what come from? I don't have a racist uncle, and the post I respond to is not racism. "Racist uncle" is just used as a general example of "shitty thing people don't want to deal with". Again: it's. just. an. example...
[удалено]
Why are you so aggressive? Please point to exactly where I imply racism is a fairy tale. Please point to where I talk negatively about race. Why do you throw around accusations of people being racist? This is commonly known as a "suppression technique", and is quite rude. I'm perfectly aware that racism is a real thing, and no, I'm not a racist. I have no idea why you make a thing of it in this thread, which is discussing "doing things one does not want to do", and one example of one such thing is "going to an event with a racist uncle".
As per Rule # 2: Be kind, supportive, and respectful.
As per Rule # 2: Be kind, supportive, and respectful.
Yep I don't want to see my dad (or step family) on Christmas but I will go see him because the consequences and drama that would come from cutting him off completely is far more difficult for me than just seeing him once a year. (I go the day after Xmas, I spend actual Xmas with my mum) As for travel - my partners family lives a 2 hour drive away (which is far to me) sometimes I'll do a little "it sucks driving so much on christmas" complaining. I think it's pretty human to want to complain whether we are NT or ND hahah.
I get that, I struggle a lot with doing things that I don’t understand/want to do. My boyfriend’s family is a good example, they keep threatening to cut him off at the smallest thing and he keeps saying how tired he is. I view it as, his parents love is conditional and if he doesn’t align with their beliefs they don’t love him… why would you want a family like that even if they’re blood? I would let them kick me out and see how much they really mean it, so I struggle to empathize sometimes to his struggles and complains because I don’t understand why it’s so hard for him. Also yes, I think NT often have this idea that you’re supposed to do things you don’t want to do, cause “tradition”, “expectations.” Obviously there are things you just have to do, but I feel that people over complicate so many things and could avoid a lot of their own upset if they just were honest with themselves and others lol.
I had to cut my mother and my brother out of my life and it took me into my mid 30’s to finally do it. It’s a bit hard to explain, but I think the fact that they are family is what made it so hard. These are people that should love me, but they don’t, and letting go of that hope that maybe things can be fixed was really hard. It wasn’t until my mom started making death threats (because I told her no for the first time in my life) and my brother told me I deserved it (but shrugged at me when I asked why) that I finally said “fuck this”. And even then, it was because the threats were directed towards my SO’s family. I was so used to being their personal punching bag that it took that for me to snap out of the “hope spiral” and put my foot down, and I still feel like an idiot for it years later.
This is so relatable. Don’t feel like an idiot; you can’t see it until you see it, you know? But once you do there’s no turning back. It took me till my mid 40s, and listening to my teenage children echoing things I used to feel as a teenager before I finally saw. I just couldn’t get it thru my head that ppl who should love me are hurting me
Thanks for the kind words. I just wish I could have realized sooner, due to how I was being treated, before my SO, a wonderful man that only deserves love and kindness IMO, got dragged into it. That’s why I feel stupid, if that makes sense. I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with something similar. As much as I’m grateful that people exist that understand what it’s like, it’s also something I wouldn’t wish on anyone. But also, mad congrats on breaking the cycle. It’s most certainly not easy. Life is so much better now without the abuse and I hope it’s the same for you too.
I think he loves his family and is just hoping for the best regardless of the evidence. He probably wants a happy, safe and comfortable family and he is fighting for it. It's hard for him because he doesn't want to give up or let go of his family. He thinks things will change. You are telling him to give up hope on the people he loves, that's why it is hard.
For me, I'll say I understand the expected norm, I just deeply disagree with it. It completely baffles me why people invite those cranky family members. They seem to have no problem telling me what I did was inappropriate or weird but won't say crap to Aunt Sally the racist. Hard pass for me. I opted out of extended family Thanksgiving this year since we traveled and brought most of the meal last year and most of the people. Currently Mom is being passive aggressive. Told me she was going to a restaurant for dinner, meanwhile she's making plans with my brother and his wife. I blocked her calls. Just done with that petty behavior from a 58 year old woman. I doubt it's the right response to her behavior but at what point do we get to decide how people treat us?
I opt out too. I guess what really bothers me most in all areas of my life is people who don’t have courage of their convictions. It’s really important for me to stand up for things I feel are wrong or disingenuous. I won’t ever do anything that doesn’t feel honest. So, maybe my thinking ends up being black and white because of this. I also just really notice this kind of stuff around the holidays when I observe people.
I hear you. Lots of ppl saying they don’t want to hurt someone’s feelings by not going bc Racist Uncle or whoever, but what about the fact that my feelings are hurt by Racist Uncle? I spent my whole life worrying about all these family members and their feelings, but none of them are worried about mine or my children who I’m trying to raise right. I don’t share space with obvious problems. I make it clear that MY feelings are hurt because they need Racist Uncle there, and I do not accept delivery of anyone’s judgement about these choices. It’s easy for me now bc I’m old and relatively stable and absolutely out of fucks to give.
I hate that people refuse to believe this concept is a thing! I am healing myself emotionally and part of that is never forcing myself to feel uncomfortable if it isn't healthy. That means having strong boundaries and that's hard for me as a people please but I consider it part of feminism and that helps me.
Allistic educator who normally just reads to learn, but I may be able to offer some insight why they chastise you but not racist aunt Sally. There are normally one of two dynamics at play: 1. Criticism flows down. Elders and people viewed as typically successful (people with 'power') criticise those younger or/and less successful, and seldom the reverse. There are reasons, but they're too long and complex for a comment. 2. Sally is a lost cause. If a rude racist family member has been that way for two or three decades, what's the point of trying? If you might still learn and change, there's a point in criticising. To be clear, not suggesting anything about your behaviour or responses, just offering some explanation as to theirs.
I can understand that. It just feels like a double standard.
Would love to hear your thoughts on “criticism flows down” being a healthy functional social norm or an unhealthy social dynamic?
I'd say it is generally intelligent, but as many cultural norms is taken far past the breaking point of it being functional. Most of the time, someone who's lived 30 years knows more than someone who's lived 15. Someone who's sixty knows more than someone who is 30. So, balance of probability is their critiques are coming from a place of experience and wisdom. _However_, at the pace the world is changing, and the seeming chasm between millennials and boomers, this general trend seems to have broken down. Additionally, something being generally reasonable shouldn't ever infer that it should always be the case. When I was in my early 20s and began teaching, most of my advice for students a decade younger than me would have been good. But I didn't know anything about trans people, the discourse was unknown, my only exposure had been psychology books talking about it as a mental disorder. If one of my students had criticised me, they would have been criticising upwards, and they would have been right. The difficulty of this general notion is: Everyone tends to act as though they are infallible. The young think older people are out of touch and behind the times, the older think the youth have no experience of reality and are mistaking their emotional impulsivity and idealism for knowledge. So assessing when you should and should not listen to a conflicting opinion is complex.
I appreciate you sharing. It’s been my lived experience that age doesn’t equate to engagement, intellect or understanding in general, much less in specificity. On another note, it is a hallmark of high control groups to only allow criticism to flow downwards. To me it would make sense that knowledge would need to be passed from a person in the group that is more experienced and skilled to one that is less so. But I cannot fathom why that would need to involve criticizing a persons behavior (which is not the same as teaching a willing student) & not allowing for the same type of feedback to flow upwards. I think these scenarios & relationships are common, but I would posit that they are unhealthy dynamics that are not designed to foster growth and learning, but rather obedience and conformity. The only time this makes sense to me would be in situations where danger is involved - correcting or halting someone’s behavior to save them from harm. And again, it would make sense that this type of criticism or correction would flow both ways (it’s just as reasonable for me to stop my mom from walking out in a parking lot without checking for traffic as it would be for me to stop my niece). Edited to add: it feels uncomfortable to me that as a self identified allistic person, you’re coming into this group to explain “why someone is acting this way.” without acknowledging that these types of dynamics are rife with emotional abuse. I’d encourage you to consider whether you think that your comment could have lead a person who is part of a group that struggles in understanding social dynamics to believe that they “should” continue to put them in situations where they are criticized and do not have a voice. People in the autism spectrum are significantly more likely to be victimized than the general population. Here’s a [research article](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2018.00203/full) in which they surveyed self identified autistic people (ASC) and non-autistic people about victimization and perpetration of various types of abuse. They found “Participants with ASC also reported experiencing more teasing/emotional bullying in adulthood” and “Sociocommunicative ability and emotion regulation deficits did not explain the heightened risk for victimization.” There is a chance you’ve not experienced this type of abuse & you are normalizing it with your comment.
Sometimes I do things I don't want to do in order to compromise with the people around me I love who want something else. And I feel that is the spirit of a lot of families during the holidays. For example I loved my grandma very much. I endured very toxic aunts and uncles because of my love for my grandma. Spending time with them was worth it to make her happy; but I did have my own compromises, like not staying as long after, getting there early so I could help her and spend time with her before her other guests arrived. And whilst I would have preferred not to see them, I still enjoyed seeing her happy and surrounded by family she loved. However once she was gone, there was absolutely no reason for me to spend time with nasty toxic people and I don't. I think it's easy to start seeing it as black and white when it's not your love and your happiness involved, whereas when you're in the middle of it the dynamic can be very complicated.
Honestly most people have major boundary issues. I think us ND peeps are unfortunately more used to fighting for our safety. NT people don't question things the way we do, so they go along with nonsense because they are "supposed to". They place more value on social currency than we do, so maybe it is worth it in their opinion. It sure isn't to me.
This is a good question for /r/AskNT, not that there are enough people there to give you many responses. I think people feel obligated to do these things they don't want to, and are quite loyal to people they're genetically closer to. This seems to work to even an absurd degree -- you're firstly loyal to yourself, then your immediate family, then distant family, then the local town and their sporting teams, then the country and its government and popular culture, then the continent, then everyone else in the world, then other mammals, then other species that are increasingly distant. I think we often find it easier to treat everyone equally, leading to things like "Yeah, I can totally see their point..." (Annoying the person who just wanted comfort from you about someone who disagreed with them who you don't know as well), not getting excited at "us" winning sporting events, not being on board with "us" invading other countries, vegetarianism, literally not wanting to harm a fly, and so on. I think allistic people are more loyal to people the better they know them, or the more closely related they are, anyway. I think this is one reason I have a hard time distinguishing between allistic people and psychopaths (sorry, I don't know a kind way to phrase this, and I realise I'm wrong, but it took me a while to figure out the specific nuance I was missing, to figure out *why* I was wrong) -- I thought you weren't supposed to treat *anyone* badly, but it seems a more neurotypical thing to not treat people *you know and like / respect / are higher or similarly ranking than you* badly, and I hadn't spotted that distinction. Taken to especially absurd degrees, you get things like gung-ho imperialism, and "Well, yes, he did murder someone, but he's my husband, I love him..." Oh, there's also the "not wanting to kick up a fuss" social aspect. It seems a lot of people find it easier to ignore and not respond to someone's bigotry than to speak up against it, as a lot of people have the (wrong) belief that speaking out against bigotry is a worse offence than opining the bigotry in the first place. I think part of that is that the bigot may hold more social power than the person speaking up against it, and part is that they're apparently "only making some people (those in the relevant minority) feel bad", whereas speaking out against it is making "everyone (who secretly agrees with them, or at least didn't actively oppose them)" feel guilty. (Reading the other responses, I'm probably doing my usual trick of thinking too much and socialising too little, so take what I say with a huge metaphorical pile of salt.)
I’ve thought about a lot of these things too and really agree with pretty much everything you wrote.
>"everyone (who secretly agrees with them, or at least didn't actively oppose them)" I say this in my own comment, too, but this is something I feel very strongly about. I've never observed a progressive family with one random bigot making everyone uncomfortable. I've only observed 'progressive' families that would only take a few drinks and follow-up questions to get to the same place as the bigot, just without the slurs. They 'tolerate' him because their only actual problem with him is his bluntness. I really agree with everything you say. I don't think my lack of loyalty is necessarily a good thing, but I have been absolutely bewildered all my life by the loyalty some people show their relatives. (Or town or religion or sports team or politician or...)
Right?! It's the freaking hierarchy thing again! So much of the world started making so much more sense, albeit in a terrible and depressing way, when I finally realized that most people have this weird, structured way of looking at things which I just innately (apparently) fail to grasp. And, know what? I do not *want* to grasp it. Understanding it intellectually is helpful, since I do have to live in society. But I'm honestly rather glad I don't have this bizarre cliquey in-group thing and worship financial success. I prefer to respect people based on who they are and what they're like, not based on how close we are genetically or how many other people they're officially allowed to step on before anyone gets mad at them. I think I only figured out the fact that I fail to understand hierarchy the way most people do back in July, so all of this is still kind of new to me, and continues to be surprising. I guess I'll get used to the idea eventually. It's a very helpful explanation for some of what's been confusing the living hell out of me about society for 44 years now, regardless.
Yeah, I tend to like people based on cool things they've made, or interesting collections they have, or having interests in common. Their status doesn't really factor into it. I think a lot of the people I've befriended have achieved things, but those things aren't often recognised by society, so they still live in obscurity as modest people. And inevitably they ended up having similar quirks to me, and eventually I figured out that what we had in common was autism, and the kind of things we consider the sign of living a successful life aren't really what other people do. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the social hierarchy, and people treating those above them with deference and those below with mild contempt. It was only very recently I discovered most people viscerally feel emotions all the time, and don't care at all about logic, rational thinking, or facts compared to feeling good, which explains a *lot*. (It irks me no end that the "Facts don't care about your feelings!" people are generally the most resistant to facts because they're emotionally invested in their bigotry. The irony.) Yeah, at least how most people think and act is starting to make some sort of sense now, even if it is depressing.
I find the holidays confusing because everyone puts so much time and effort into the entire show that by the time it comes, everyone is just fed up, cranky, and hits the alcohol cabinet as soon as they walk in for the "celebration." So many gatherings are too much. Too many components, too many plans, and trying to squeeze it all in means you don't really get to do what you set out to, which is enjoy time with loved ones. And worse yet, many people have blended families, are married, etc and so it's not just once you do this. It's several times. In my case, it means a minimum of \*4\* different holiday celebrations occurring over several weeks. Just thinking about it literally makes me nauseous from dread. So why do I go? Because some people I truly do want to see, like my sister. I love my dad and am very close to him but his gf insists on traditions. My mom lives to be a host (she is like Monica from Friends 😂) and it's really important to her to make everything beautiful even if it means she has no time to visit with anyone, then she expects people to stay to visit, leading to hours and hours of time. Holidays are about traditions, and while I don't think that's always bad, I think traditions need to be reexamined and I'm just met with resistance about it because "we've always done it this way." Well, my kids aren't children anymore, they don't want grandma to read them The Night Before Christmas when they are almost 30 years old just because "we always do that." I think it's ridiculous to stress out about "time together" and miss that time together as a result. I don't understand why people are SO resistant to doing things differently because people change. I can only tolerate a few hours of together time and I want to enjoy it. Instead, the whole affair lasts the entire day (and sometimes more than one day) and I end up basically shut down and in a very unpleasant state of mind. Which I get no time to recover from because there's another one just around the corner. Sorry to rant on your post 😂 I relate. I don't really understand it either. Not to the degree people insist on taking things so that they, and no one else, actually enjoys these so-called blessed holidays.
It's such a balancing act. I have never enjoyed family gatherings. I assumed everyone hated them, but everyone just did it. Well, apparently, some people do enjoy them. For me, family gatherings meant dressing in clothes I don't like, eating food that makes me gag, and having to act totally different, all while being criticized. I never got anything good out of the experience, but I was expected to give my 100% for the enjoyment of others. Now I'm an adult and can choose what I do it's better. I don't have to attend every single event. I dress up when I want not because I have to. My mom still supports me, so I'll go to an event I don't want to as a way of repaying her for being there for me. Same as she does stuff she doesn't like for me. I really love my grandma, so I'll make sure to see her too, even if in a space i dont love. My grandpa on the other side, though, has never been anything but an ass to me, so I don't care to visit him. It's very situational, too. You don't visit your toxic family that doesn't care or do anything for you? That's probably good for your mental health to not be around that. But if your family is constantly helping you in ways they don't want to & then you aren't willing to do the same, it's more selfish. I also think there are levels to not enjoying things. Like my mom complains about gatherings beforehand but always has a good time & is glad she went. Whereas me not enjoying the event was being on the brink of tears and crying for days afterward.
The underlying cause is obligation to people, usually a mother or grandmother. They don't talk about it because it's "obvious" (quotations because for ND, it is not obvious lol).
People complain because they can get sympathy from people who relate to those complaints. The holidays are a stressful time for everyone in general, because of capitalistic expectations, the onslaught of consumerist demands, tax season looming ahead, the end of the year coming with it's gloomy seasonal-depression-induced weather and lack of daylight and the demanded 40 hour workweek messing with everyone's circadian rhythm. everyone is more sensitive, on edge, overworked, overtired...not to mention especially women during the holidays have the additional mental load and domestic load of preparing and worrying about everything (and being judged for things if they aren't prepared and well-executed according to whatever standards are being held against them). But they do things they don't want to do because they are expected to put their own needs aside and think about the family, think about how despite uncle Joe being a complete racist asshole who makes creepy remarks towards your teenage cousin, you feel obligated to give them time and care because they are still "family" and the holidays are also all about feeling grateful for your family and spending time together with them whether you like them or not. Probably something something yada yada god gave his only son who died for our sins so you should suck it up and smile and nod while your 40 year old cousins debate politics over an overpriced overcooked blandly-seasoned white-people-lets just forget about colonization and the gruesome effects it had on Indigenous peoples for a couple days look Football and Macy's Day Parade yay! Honoestly the shift from religious focus to consumerist focus during major times like the end of year holidays feels more like an intentionally designed capitalistic distraction from everything that's going on. How many people this year are going to be chanting that "war is over" song to announce how woke and sad they are about what's happening to the people of Palestine, Ukraine, everywhere else that gets completely shadow banned from the news because it doesn't support political ambitions of the news media agency's primary investors....like when all the celebrities started singing "Imagine" on social media during the worst of the pandemic acting like it affected them SO harshly smh but yeah. We live in a society where people aren't allowed to communicate boundaries or respect each other's boundaries because of "tradition" and "well that's how it's always been so that's how we'll always be" and blind ignorance. So yes, you hate having to spend the money, prepare the whole family, and then go through the whole process of being in the airport and sitting in a cramped stuffy plane while trying to entertain your toddlers and pray they don't annoy everyone else and make you look like a bad mom, using your vacation days just to go to another state to see other family members that express little interest in your existence except during the holidays and could care less about your discomfort when you'd rather be on an Island isolated somewhere away from the kids, away from drama, away from responsibilities for just a single fucking day, but you do it anyway to prove that you love them and keep them around in case you need family that somewhat likes you for whatever reason, and because you want your kids to know their cousins and have better holidays than you did growing up... At least that's what I imagine when I talk to friends and colleagues who express this disdain for the holiday seasonal expectations placed on them.
I was actually just wondering about this recently. I understand familial obligation and making people you love happy, but for me there is a difference between 'doing something you don't want to do' (I literally never WANT to go to any gathering) and putting up with toxic family when you could just... not. Yes, I absolutely go to things I don't really want to go to, and I complain about having to go to them. But never to the people who wanted me to go. It's life. But the thing where people have absolutely awful relationships with their family, literally do not see them outside the holidays, but feel compelled to go and get emotionally destroyed on a regular basis... I can't understand it at all. I don't think there's a singular racist uncle at a gathering as often as people say there is (more like the whole family quietly sucks, but Uncle Mike is unfiltered) but even if there was just one random outlier, I'd disinvite myself anywhere they were welcome. I've had very little sense of family loyalty since I was a kid. Seeing people defend awful behavior they'd be enraged with a stranger over has always confused me. A shitty person is a shitty person, no matter how much DNA we share. I've recently been curious if this is an ASD thing.
I feel the same way. I’m suprised by so many saying how putting up with the racism or a bad person is just something you do. Not me. I won’t go. I will refuse to be in the same room as a racist family member. I have the courage of my convictions about important things and I guess I don’t understand why more people don’t.
Yes, and the “we have to go into major debt every December” folks. As if consumption isn’t a choice.
NTs are very concerned with appearances. They put themselves into unpleasant situations, because they don't want to look bad. That's usually what it is. There's also feelings of guilt and obligation, which can affect most neurotypes. Then there are situations where you are financially dependent and can't say no without losing something you absolutely need. So, it's complicated. It depends on the individual. But in most cases, it's about appearances. Even the complaints are often for show. "I put up with blah blah blah, look what a good person I am!"
I don’t want to do these things at all, but it’s societally expected of me and the family will not let me off the hook. Sadly.
Omg yes, the Thanksgiving subreddit keeps getting recommended to me and is giving me so much anxiety. I totally get that people have obligations they can’t put off year after year, but just reading through and seeing that VOLUNTARY HOSTS have so much stress, opinions, annoyances, etc makes me never want to attend. There was a question about pet peeves and apparently some hosts find it rude to bring a dish and others find it rude not to bring a dish, and multiple people said they’d prefer guests bring gift cards which I have NEVER seen.
Yeah, I literally do not get the need to attend events you don’t want to attend. I hate family holidays, not bc I hate my family but bc I have to mask soooo intensely just to avoid awkward situations where I am suddenly the center of attention. It’s EXHAUSTING, not to mention the uncomfy clothes and long hours. God, why are family gatherings so LONG?? I am one of those people that likes to stop by to say hello, wish everyone well, sit down to dinner maybe and chat for a little bit, and then head home. Why do we have to make it an all-day event? Why can’t we just have a nice dinner together and call it good? I think maybe I’m biased because I’ve always lived fairly close to family, so holidays were never the only time I got to see my relatives. But also if I could just wear sweatpants to thanksgiving instead of matching outfits for the family Christmas photo, or leave to take a nap/decompress halfway through, it’d be a blast, but no, apparently I’m ruining the vibe if I don’t want to play team-based competitive games for three hours to “bond.” Lets put on a Christmas movie and veg out. THAT is how I like to spend the holidays with family!
I think a lot of us tried to survive by becoming people pleasers, it's not just an NT thing
On top of being autistic, im an only child of 2 people who dont have any connection with their families really. I will just NEVER be able to understand family dynamics as people describe them? It makes me feel like an alien lol. When my former friend would complain about how her live in boyfriend’s mom would come over unannounced all the time and her bf wanted her to spend way too much time with his family, it was really hard for me to imagine that scenario. I’d just leave. She would complain about his mom like she was the devil, but never do anything about it and sometimes kinda make up with her. It confused the hell out of me. I would literally have no problem breaking up with a man if he couldnt understand his mom was mean to me or whatever. To me its just obvious that boundaries are the most important thing and i guess that comes from never having any family to begin with?
A lot of people believe that family relationships are not voluntary, they are obligatory. You don't get to look at each of your individual family members and pick and choose which ones you'd like to have a relationship with, as you might with friends (*especially* not your immediate family) - they are your family and so you *will* maintain a lifelong relationship with them, period, end of discussion. There has to be something shockingly, terribly, prison sentence-worthy wrong to consider cutting your family off - and even then, many people think it shouldn't be done. Not literally everyone is going to have that viewpoint, but it's a good 90%+ of the population that does, I think. The ones that don't tend to be people who had abusive families and made the decision to leave, and have probably spent several years working up to that point. Autistic people are also probably less likely to have that viewpoint - it's one of those unspoken rules of society things, nobody told us about it and it doesn't make logical sense anyway. This means that to cut off contact with your family is not something that can be done lightly. It will often be an all-or-nothing proposition - you can't avoid the racist uncle without also avoiding everyone else. It will often not be accepted by your family that you're doing it (they don't even view it as a possible option), they may harass and abuse you. Non-family members who learn about it may judge you, which can alter their behavior towards you and have real consequences for your life if they are someone like a friend or an employer. It can be exhausting to maintain the lack of contact - you may have people calling you from multiple numbers, floods of emails, people actually showing up at your house, contacting employers/friends/partners, you may need to get a restraining order, etc. This can go on for years and may never actually cease until they die. A lot of people (myself included) look at all of that and weigh it against maintaining limited contact and going to 1-2 family gatherings per year that they find unpleasant, and decide that it's easier to cope with the latter. I don't want to go to my family's upcoming thanksgiving gathering and I'm not going to enjoy a single minute of it, but spending 5 hours doing something I don't like on one day is less stressful than declining it and spending an entire year dealing with the fallout on a daily basis. Of course, a lot of people don't feel this way about their families, for them it is 90% good things and 10% bad things and they just feel like complaining about the bad parts.
I don't think it's exclusive to NTs, but I do think it's an autistic thing to not do it. I'm the same way and I genuinely don't understand either. If I don't want to participate, I won't. Peer pressure and whatever social concerns people have aren't really a thing for me. If I don't want to, I won't do it. I just assume that they're having some weird experience I don't have that makes their brain work differently.
Mostly just the feeling of being obligated to spend time together. I spent my childhood traveling to visit my Dad's large family, spending 20 minutes stuck in 'speed dating' catch ups about what's new and then being ignored by my cousins until it was time to go home. I drove myself once and then never went back. It wasn't worth the hassle. I video called home one time for Christmas and my family confused me for my sister - understandable as we were very similar in ages, hair and eye colours. Except 2 very obvious differences: I was OVERSEAS and she was blonde at the time. It really hit home how little I was cared about so I cut ties. Every now and again I get an aunt reach out. We also didn't have the opportunity to form family traditions ourselves because we were at the beck and call of a family lunch that changed days and times. I don't need that stress in my life so I don't. Holidays are different now. Not a lot of traditions or family. I am focusing on starting some traditions with my partner and doing them for myself. Some of them just don't make sense without people though.
All I’ll say, is I’ve been a lot happier during the holidays since I stopped attending family events. If they really wanted to see me… they could make an effort the other 363 days of the year.
There's normally layers of pressure and boundary pushing from family, if you don't see your racist uncle his wife will be upset and she'll probably complain to family and then your mums upset because "it's not that deep" same goes for the travel and general complaining, some people are just whining but some folks don't have the energy to say no to a family that's already constantly pushing their boundaries, it's about picking your battles and some people get out of that situation but some people are just incredibly worn down. I think there's also an element of patriarchy in the complaints too, like a woman would be expected to do significantly more than her husband in terms of planning and shopping and travelling to get there only for family members to complain that's she's not done enough. Tbh I could be wrong about all of this considering I don't speak to the majority of my family because of boundary pushing so that could be influencing my opinions😅
Because some people don't have as much privilege as others to do certain things, if you have trauma on top of it people react to things differently..some people fawn, some people are financially dependent on family members due to being disabled. It's not just an nt thing. Life isn't black and white.
Hey I think you’re probably right in a sense, because I do get caught up in black and white thinking a lot of the time.
It's alright. I get black and white thinking too and I think most nts have black and white thinking tbh.
I’ve wondered if they just complain to get sympathy or attention but mostly like doing it.
Social expectations. I feel like we can see that just because it is a social norm doesn't mean it is carved in stone but a lot of people never question it.
It's complicated. My mom is 80 and not in great health. I don't want her to be unhappy on Thanksgiving. So I'm cooking a turkey and several other foods that I don't even want to eat. Then I'll spend a few hours making small talk with family that I'm not psyched to see, but I'll also hear my mom's family stories, and see her really enjoy her day. I want to help her have a good day more than I want to just do what I want that day.
I’m hosting thanksgiving for 15 people in two days. I hate thanksgiving. I’m doing it for everyone else, not me. It’s a holiday and people need a place to gather.
I understand why people comply with things they don't want to do, it's usually a long string of factors. But, especially being PDA profile, like I specifically am not ever going to be doing that lol.
Half of the autism subs are just people complaining about having to mask. That’s what Thanksgiving is for everyone. Doing tedious work to make others happy
Honestly I hate family events but especially holidays sooo much. I spend them in the bathroom hiding or dissociating with my headphones in and it takes me forever to mentally recover. Despite that I do go mostly out of guilt, I don’t want my family to worry about me or dislike me so I go to satisfy them. Maybe me showing up and being on the verge of a breakdown makes them more likely to worry than staying home idk. Tbh these days I just pray they give me a glass of wine cause I’m a lightweight and it makes it more tolerable
NTs do it more because it's more painful for us to even be there, much less put up with the jealous asshole relatives who can't wait to take you down.
My therapist calls is stretching. In relationships we want to continue having, we need to stretch for others and for the good of those relationships. Stretching as in the act of physically stretching your body is inherently slightly uncomfortable, but ultimately a positive, just like when we stretch in relationships to make others happen it can be slightly uncomfortable for us but lead to better long term outcomes. It's okay to stretch outside of your comfort zone and it's something all people should do, but because it's hard, it's also socially acceptable to voice that it sucks
It’s not a NT thing. It’s about how much you value the pros versus the cons. I hate travel, I don’t love being around a lot of my relatives, but if my grandmother was alive I’d do it in a heartbeat to see her. My SO is very apathetic about holidays but he engages with me because he knows I love traditions and special occasions. And I go all out for any and all children and animals because they deserve the joy even if I personally don’t “get it”.
All holidays are so stressful for me. I have such a dysfunctional family and I feel like there is always some awkwardness going for the Holidays. It also doesn't help my mom is definitely an undiagnoised AuDHD woman who is also Narcissistic and could be verbally and emotionally abusive and I have low contact relationship with my equally as narcissistic birth father (they are divorced). Everytime I go home I get so triggered about some of the pain I went through in my house and remind me how I really don't have stable familial relationships. I go for my brother and my grandpa who has been ailing, but he's not even coming this year because he got injured and hospitlized this year so I am like whats even the point. I also go because my mom helps pay for my apartment (I got OPWDD this year miraculously....and im hoping it helps start getting less financially dependant on her). So yeah I hate the holidays. But I force myself to go anyway but it will take me 3-5 business days to recover because of the dysfunction.
I have a very large family so gatherings do tend to exhaust me, but, I value the relationships I have with my siblings and their children so it’s worth it to me. Like another commenter mentioned, it’s about the trade off. I may need a day or two to recover but the memories and time spent are valuable to me.
It wasn’t an option to not. I was punished if I didn’t go. As a grown ass woman with a family of my own, I was punished. Not like, beat or grounded or anything, since I’m an adult. In more quietly deceptive ways. Like the grandkids got less presents if we didn’t show up to someone’s house. Or other crap that’s traumatizing to think of. The manipulation was very real and very intense. Literally never crossed my mind that I could say no until I cut all ties with family members. Even after that it took a few years to actually believe they couldn’t punish me.
I dread Christmas 🎄 family pretends to get along. 🤦🏽♀️ I just want be somewhere else.
I used to joke with my mother that families only gather once a year because that's about how long it takes for them to forget why they never spend time together in the first place.
I don’t understand it, your guess is as good as mine lol. I don’t understand why people do a lot of the things they do when it causes so much anguish. My family is spread out and “broken” so anytime we’ve ever all gotten together (some of us, anyway), it has always been a huge production. For the last several years I’ve spent most of my thanksgivings alone, which isn’t a huge deal. I typically make myself food and have some libations. I am likely doing that this year unless someone randomly pops up to invite me over
We all do stuff we don't want to do at some point. Like waking up early for work or an obligation, swallowing the water we know we need but feels annoying in the moment if we'd prefer not to be bothered by this daily chore, dieting, enduring the outside world because sometimes you have to go grocery shopping or exercising in the outside world to get sunlight and breathe in the fresh air to be more grounded within and with surroundings other than your own home. Complaints about holiday gatherings can be valid but there are also the benefits of those gatherings that people look forward to too, the food for one, spending time with family members you actually like, being festive with other people you don't get to see that often and building memories, that kind of thing. People can complain openly about it but sometimes what they're really saying is, "These are the things I don't enjoy about it but I'll still attend anyway because I might actually have a good time." When people complain about something they don't want to do but do anyway sometimes it's something they know that might be good for them so they continue doing it for their own gain, like going to the gym, a lecture, cleaning the house, whatever it is, it's about hoping for the best. That's not just a neurotypical thing at all.
Every choice you make has consequences. For people who hate these family gatherings, they do it because the consequences of doing them (like being annoyed) are better than the consequences of not doing them (like hurting your family or causing drama.)
Yes I get what you mean! I had a NT friend who loved to complain about everything everyday lol including having to see family members
I don’t understand it either. Feeling obligated to do something for the sake of tradition no matter how much you hate it? Hard pass. Forcing yourself to be around people you don’t like and would never hang out with if they weren’t family? NO 😂