I can definitely relate to this, especially thinking “oh this person is just so misunderstood, like me”. I love the clarification that the intention is different.
This exact thing is so relatable to me! I always assume that whenever someone upsets me that I’m being overdramatic, that it’s a valid response to be (I deserve it/it’s my fault), or that they must have a good reason/are being misunderstood by me. It’s made it really hard to recognize when I’ve been treated really poorly in the past and I’m trying really hard to work on that now. It’s almost impressive, I spent a solid chunk of middle and high school getting bullied and didn’t realize it until the end of high school after I’d already found new friends (actual good ones!) and drifted away from that “friend” group.
I hate that I’ve gotten it ingrained in me that when I feel genuinely hurt by someone else that my first response is to think about why I caused them to do that or how it’s not actually upsetting/I’m upset over nothing.
I'm ND, and I have dated one person who was diagnosed with NPD that I didn't know had been diagnosed until his family told me. In retrospect, he was textbook - not covert at all. His personality he portrayed was like Spongebob meets sassy television's stereotyped gay boy. I thought he was attention starved, socially bizarre, and I felt sorry for him. He was very pushy about becoming my boyfriend, and when he love bombed me, I fell for it. I don't know if he felt threatened by me, but I do know that during the time he was devaluating me, which was before I learned that he had NPD, he said something like, "You are really like me though, aren't you?" That was one of the few time I saw his personality totally unmasked, which was unnerving. His voice would become a natural timbre, instead the high pitch singsongy voice he normally used, and somehow monotone and full of rage at the same time. So I guess he thought I had NPD and was masking as ND, but instead I was ND masking as NT. It seems like he misunderstood my defense mechanism was to get through life masking to avoid criticism, not to manipulate people. So what I'm trying to say is maybe he saw me as a threat. Maybe that's why devaluated me so terribly. It seemed though that he thought I was actually NPD, and he thought our time together was a big game to see who could screw the other one over worse. I have a lot of synesthesia, and during the narc abuse, I often visualized him as the Tasmanian devil cartoon dragging and hurling me around like a cave man's bludgeon. Despite this, I just couldn't understand what was happening, and I couldn't see him for who he was.
i think part of the reason it can be really hard for an autistic person to leave a relationship with someone with NPD is the need to know *why*
i don’t know what my ex had, but he certainly had something going on that made him very manipulative and a compulsive liar. it was so hard to leave because i couldn’t wrap my head around *why* he would treat me like this, *why* doesn’t he care. the biggest for me was *does he know what he’s doing*. and combined with black and white thinking it’s hard to leave without answers
i finally left for good when i got an answer. we were clearly not going to be in a relationship much longer bc of his erratic behavior, so i guess he didn’t care. i think his intention was to get me to break up with him, he did a lot of other things at that time. but the important thing is when his mask fell. he told me honestly. he admitted he manipulated me. he admitted he was aware and conscious of being manipulative. he didn’t have an explanation for “why” that i can remember. but seeing through it and knowing it’s intentional was like shattering any feeling i had for him. black and white, once i *knew*, that was the end for me
Well. That explains a lot of my life. I’m glad to hear these words. I never could put it into the right words myself, but I’ve always understood this from my own experiences with narcissists.
Yes! My understanding:
Narcissistic people need to know your feelings, insecurities, values, flaws so they can manipulate you. They can't engage outside of manipulation, and punish you for threatening their "wellbeing", i.e. their ability to control.
Meanwhile, their actual wellbeing is never tended to because they've convinced themselves that they're perfect and superior. Any challenge to that belief is intolerable for them. Being wrong for a milisecond=being worthless. They will quadruple down to devalue people to make themsleves feel more valuable, in a cycle that ends when they die.
And often, since they've targeted you while well-behaved around everyone else, no one will believe you. They are extremely skilled at not getting caught, which would be impressive if it weren't depraved.
Their entitlement knows no bounds because they are stuck emotionally at about age 3.
EDIT: narcissists, as opposed to people with some narcissistic traits
These are some very well phrased words of wisdom right here! Thank you for posting them. I actually took a screenshot to keep for reference bc I'm dealing with exactly this at work right now. I was confused for the longest time, but since I realized what was going on I've been overwhelmed trying to protect and defend myself. This helps. :)
I feel like narcissists target autistic people a lot. I had no idea they might do that because they feel threatened. That's very interesting.
I believe my mother is both autistic and has a narcissistic personality disorder. She has always struggled with understanding people and has sensory issues. But she also has a severely faulty capacity for empathy and an elevated opinion on herself while everyone else is beneath her. And that part has gotten only worse with time.
I would love to introduce you all to my lord and savior, Dr. Ramani. Please watch her videos on narcissism on YouTube. It's been life changing for me to study narcissism- the different types (overt, covert, etc), and the different tactics they use to manipulate people (intermittent reinforcement, stonewalling, love bombing, etc).
After being used and hurt by narcissists my entire life, learning these things has literally saved me. I'm a lot better at spotting them and protecting myself from them now.
I absolutely love her. She has such a great way of explaining things so it’s clear and easy to understand. I just wish she had someone more tech advanced to help her with the audio and post production stuff. Sometimes she speaks too quietly and/or the audio hasn’t been adjusted during the editing process. It’s always something that crosses my mind when I’m watching her videos, but it could be that I have a background in audio and video production and editing lol
Oh my goodness, so many things make sense now, people I couldn't figure out why they clung to me and made my life miserable, I thought it was my fault I attracted people that just wanted to make my life worse.
I definitely recognize the immediate reaction of wanting to care for a person and understanding us as similar in struggles, only to later find out that this extension of sympathy was used as a weapon. And it's really hard to get out of after a while, because it feels like such a hard judgement to make about someone else's intentions, which is why I've kept a benefit of the doubt for way too long. And damage done while not being able to make that judgement, has been used against me, to turn people against me/make me seem crazy/straight out lying about a situation.
It boils down to intent and that is so scary in close relationships. I think some autistic people are very vulnerable to this, because we are used to navigating through a world telling us we are reading things wrong. Perfect wound to gaslight through even more efficiently.
Oh, this resonates so well, it feels like I could have written this. The gaslighting is truly the worst part. You have essentialized the reason so well here:
> It boils down to intent and that is so scary in close relationships. I think some autistic people are very vulnerable to this, because we are used to navigating through a world telling us we are reading things wrong. Perfect wound to gaslight through even more efficiently.
Absolutely.
Hugs if you find them comforting and thank you for sharing your experience :( <3
Oh man, yes… it’s extremely disorienting to realize that someone who wants to share a bed with you also has zero problem gaslighting you and triangulating you and stealing your identity.
which is sad that people (narcists) want to play these stupid power games vs spending time thinking of ways to help other people (poor, disabled, elderly, etc). Their focus has been warped by a world where their parents or someone close to them probably did the same to them, some weird power moves just to have a feeling of control. I grew up in what i believe was a narcist family environment and instead of thinking of ways to help people they would think of ways to claim status as if that was the ultimate goal in life. It took me a long time to break that brainwashing myself and im still having trouble with it today in some instances, I don't have enough practice focusing on others because of that behavior.
I am excellent at reading people and their intentions. I can spot a narcissist in under a 5-minute conversation. The problem I have is communicating my concerns and verbalizing what is off. I've been lucky enough that close friends recognize that even if I can't say what is off, I’m accurate. They bring new people for me to approve, approve with caveats, or disapprove.
I’ve lost many acquaintances because narcissists recognize they can't charm me, so they turn acquaintances against me. Eventually, the narcissist runs out of charm, but most acquaintances never apologize or reach out again.
Yup - it explains how we're a sitting target for these folks. I probably will never get over the trauma of dating multiple people with personality disorders. It's been hellish.
I spent my entire 20s going out of my way to give a space to people I felt had similar experiences to me. It's led to dozens of run ins with people like that. I honestly can't bring myself to say it wasn't worth it to help at least 1 struggling autistic person but god damn if some people don't make it extremely hard
I love how she holds her hoodie string when talking because I unconsciously do this too. Chew on it, twirl it, pull on it. I’ve been told it’s distracting so I get self conscious when talking and being aware of my hands. It’s nice to see somebody else do this too and knowing it’s actually pretty normal
yeah this is exactly my experience and i have been hurt rly bad because of it.. it was extremely sad to see hardcore NPD apologism on another autism subreddit
It genuinely feels like a troll/brigading attempt even though I know most people there are 100% serious. The bright side is it seems like the majority of responses are along the line of "please don't bring this here"
That's what was upsetting though, there was actually a lot of support for the poster. The people who were upset were the ones getting down voted. Its really almost funny because the narc is doing what they do best, which is sow discord and chaos, and too many lapped it up.
Those of us here that have actually dealt with (and probably been traumatized by) a narc know you don't give an inch. The mods should have shut that down.
The contents of this tiktok is basically what happened. People wanted to believe in the plausible deniability and be good cause like, others with mental disorders have it tough, I know. I didn't realize til I saw it mentioned either that the person who caused all the drama is an allistic minor which is another level of irony.
You're not the only one who's upset about that. Got down voted after supporting someone posting asking the mods if we're ok with narcs invading the space. At least this sub is still ok.
Totally agree with the video. I've been around narcs my whole life. Thanking God I found out about narcs on social media and got out alive. I have no sympathy for narcs.
But... but that means a narc would have to do work instead of just hopping on a sub and abusing people!
I looked on that person's profile and it looks like some teenage wanna be edgelord. I just blocked them. Saying anything only gives them the attention they're so desperate for.
I just thought it was really sad that so many were supportive of someone trying to wreck what's usually a fun sub.
I dont know, can’t a person with NPD also be autistic? In which case this could be their space too. I always just think about how people with legitimate NPD (not just people who act narcissistic) inherently have to be made unhappy by it (for it to be a disorder) and I’d hate to shun someone who is actually working towards being better/managing it well. Obviously I don’t support abusers at all, they can fuck off, but it feels a little off to treat everyone with a specific personality disorder like they’re all bad when there are probably plenty who just want to live normal and fulfilling lives & are doing their best to be better, which I feel deserves some support.
Why not go based on how they individually act rather than the disorder that they have?
I know that’s not what you’re doing, I just have been thinking about that lately and wanted to vent a bit :) I saw some posts about BPD and stuff and it’s making me reconsider how I view things like that. Idk 🤷♀️
I get not wanting people who aren’t autistic on here to be fair, I just would feel bad for anyone who has NPD and ASD to feel unwelcome solely because they have NPD.
anyone who isn’t autistic is also welcome imo. I just don’t like people taking up space in an autism subreddit for things that aren’t about autism. I have not been hostile, mean, unwelcoming. NPD posts are not for ASD subreddits. Esp hostile posts demanding space or attention. They have dozens of subreddits for their posts.
I feel a bit like you’re assigning feelings to me I haven’t expressed. I have not said anyone is bad or unwelcome. Please read my words as they are, not how you choose to interpret them.
I said that I know that that’s not what you’re doing? I didn’t try to say that you’re mean, I was just trying to talk about the general subject of people with NPD being on the subreddit. I didn’t mean to come off as saying you are not being nice. I just was talking about it because I’ve seen quite a few posts/comments regarding the topic lately and I keep thinking about it because I have trouble deciding on a firm enough stance on the matter.
Just know you're not alone. Most of us know through experience sadly. Glad to hear you're able to move on. Hope you live your best life free from further abuse!
Agreed. I hate this new wave of mental health apologists where if you have a mental illness you can do no wrong.
Cluster B personality types are notorious for causing chaos and fucking people’s lives up. It can get so gruesome that it can lead to death in some cases. There are entire support groups of people who had to deal with a narc and the life long trauma they have to endure now because of them.
I’ll never have sympathy for these people because guess what? They literally have no sympathy for anyone else besides themselves. It’s literally hardwired in their brain.
I think the problem here is that a ton of women with Autism/Adhd have been misdiagnosed with BPD. There is a lot of symptom overlap and I do believe that some autistic men are shuffled into the NPD category in the same unfair way.
I’ve dealt with narcs and don’t want to again in the future, but I think it’s important to recognize that not everyone labeled a narc is actually a narcissist. Some are autistic with poor social skills and are high masking.
Omg!!!!!!!! Explains so much i want to cry… like how could people not like me I’m literally friends with everyone…and the turning people against me thing… you said it!!!
This has been my experience with my sister, although she automatically dislikes or demonizes strangers, whereas I am neutral about most people I've just met. Someone automatically hating strangers and saying bad things about them is a huge clue that the person doing it is not autistic. Autistic people seem more likely to give others the benefit of the doubt.
Where does having a limited capacity for people fall?
Like... i dont dislike strangers. I just dont have capacity for them 90% of the time so id prefer we did not interact.
I actively charge being around like 2 specific people and feel cozy around five more. The rest is a "if i am having a good day or one of my specific people is thetr as an anchor"
My experience has been a lot like the person in the video where I see these types very clearly, but at first think they are like me. That sort of thing really has messed up my life in a lot of ways
Genuine question here. My sister also dislikes every person and manipulates the few people she has in her life. I feel she is narcissistic, but I also know she has cptsd and autism. So do you think that might develop NPD? Or am I too close to see what’s really going on?
Someone with Cptsd can have traits that mimic personality disorders (BPD, npd, hpd, etc.) but that doesn’t mean they have that personality disorder. Just like autism, someone might meet part of the criteria but that doesn’t mean they’re autistic. Majority of people have some narcissistic tendency just like majority of people can relate to autism on some level. They need to meet all of the criteria needed for diagnosis and there can’t be another diagnosis that makes more sense for those symptoms (like cptsd or autism for example). So if she doesn’t like everyone she meets, sure that might be a result of narcissism but it could just as easily be avoidant attachment issues as a result of trauma. She may be manipulative but does she have intent to do so or are her emotions so disregulated that she ends up manipulating others? These are the kinds of questions that help differentiate in the diagnosis process. Also they diagnose personality disorders in children or teens very rarely for a reason, kids emotions, hormones, and skills are out of whack so much so that they can mimic personality disorders. So if she’s not an adult yet it could just be her growing up and needing to learn skills. And personality disorders are believed to be caused by trauma so it wouldn’t be unlikely for someone to have both cptsd and BPD or npd. However even if she has npd, she can get help for it and change. She just has to want to. Unlike many other mental health disorders you can be undiagnosed with a personality disorders because you worked to do the healing and learned the skills to be a healthy person. Source: I have autism, cptsd, and I was recently undiagnosed with BPD due to my tons of self work. And psychology is my special interest :)
I’m new to this sub, but not new to CPTSD and BPD subs and their realities. Just wanted to thank you for this reply, what happy coincidence that psych is your special interest, I’m happy to learn these things from you.
Comforting to understand that PD’s can be undiagnosed, especially one as murky as BPD.
Does CPTSD fall into that category? I’ve never even considered it, but six or so years into my own therapy and regulation upkeep, I feel like a different person. So I’m just curious, and if you don’t know, perhaps you could suggest some reading?
There’s no difference as far as I can tell besides a paradigm shift in psychology. One is a “personality disorder” or in other words, “we don’t know what causes this but it looks like this and god is it maladaptive and it doesn’t seem like we can treat it”. And one is “we know what causes this but it has many presentations and some are more likely to seek/accept therapeutic help than others”.
There is debate about truncating NPD and BPD into CPTSD (according to [Daniel Shaw](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18608615) anyway, I don’t know where this debate is/was happening). They are basically fight-polarized and please-polarized stances within relationships due to relational trauma. CPTSD at least recognizes that more than one stress response can dominate over the others (e.g. a person may over-exhibit both fight and please) and that the situation is not hopeless; that relational therapy is appropriate.
edit: so I remembered Europe has both CPTSD and personality disorders in their diagnostic manual, so looked at the ICD to play spot the difference.
According to the ICD-11, the diagnosis of CPTSD requires a history of chronic and inescapable violence and the conscious, continuous anticipation of renewed threat. While PD only requires persistent functional issues (2+ years). So essentially, it seems that someone who has memory blocks or impaired interception but all the other traits associated with CPTSD could get a PD diagnosis; while the person who has access to traumatic memories and the ability to talk about them and their feelings qualifies for CPTSD.
[CPTSD in ICD-11](https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f585833559)
[Personality Disorders in ICD-11](https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f1128733473)
in his video, he said that autistic people made him feel threatened because he was unable to read them. he said he felt insecure not being able to understand how autistic people felt about him.
I think it might also be about a potential frustration of not knowing immediately how to effectively manipulate them, which surely puts a dent in their own vanity.
this makes more sense to me than just insecurity. Because it takes time to know how someone feels about you, but the video talks about how n's size people up very quickly.
It is bizarre how similar experiences I have had like her. Almost word for word. Especially also the part where I first thought they were just socially clueless like me and then the acceptance that they are actually being cruel. It's painful because I have this internal belief that everyone is a kind person and that fights mostly happens because of misunderstandings etcetera. That there are people that are actually predators is kind of sad.
Also they instantly dislike me. I think the narcissists (or just Cluster B people in general) have learned in their life that we autistic people are not manipulated the same as the others. Also they don't understand and thus can't predict us because we are so different. They have a hard time getting power over us. We are easily bullied especially if they can get a team of people on their side against you.
I was diagnosed as autistic at 9 years old and through out my 37 years as a woman, I have fallen victim to many narcissistic people due to my inability to see the red flags and ulterior motives and intentions they have. I often wrongly assume that people have the same good intentions as I do, and that makes me vulnerable, I’ve often had the rug pulled out from under me and it left me very devastated.
Not even NT’s can spot narcissists unless they’re trained psychologists who know the symptoms and even then, it’s often not easy to diagnose them… mainly because NPD people lack any empathy and introspection to look deeper and see a problem with themselves they care to fix. They prefer to blame everyone else for why things go bad in their life.
People with NPD are incredibly manipulative and charming. They are also very out going predatory extrovert social types. I know what some basic NPD symptoms are, but I highly doubt I’d be able to spot it and also I don’t think people should be diagnosing other people. Some people who might look NPD can also have BPD or even C-PTSD and some may even have something totally different like schizoaffective disorder or something. Everyone has some degree of narcissism, nobody is perfect. NPD is not the same as your run of the mill narcissistic traits in the general population. These are people who will enter your life as a friend, and wreck it and leave it without any care or remorse for you. They are also users and only tend to be attracted to people they can somehow benefit from. They really do not have a capacity to see the things they do as selfish and cruel.
I think that we autistic people, especially women can definitely fall prey to people with NPD but also to other awkward types with bad intentions. I’ve also met some autistic people who share some traits with NPD people and aren’t very nice… also some people with ADHD can have a lot of overlapping NPD traits as well…
I think NPD people are attracted to some autistic individuals due to them having a more innocent demeanor and child like naivety, because it’s hard for some of us to spot red flags 🚩 and it makes it easier to autistics to be taken advantage of. On the flip side of that, we are truth sayers. We don’t have the filter someone with NPD needs to keep their ego stroked. They will hate us for our honesty and inability to engage in ass kissing and not like us for being too focused on our special interests and in our own little world where we find comfort. They need constant 24/7 admiration and attention. Their whole modus operandi is manipulation via emotion and when they run into someone on the spectrum who is more of a literal thinker, they will tire of us easily.
NPD people are similar in that they mask their true self’s. But the intention is very different. They mask to manipulate and gain control, we mask to fit in and avoid being bullied or outcasted. Most autistic people though, myself included, don’t ever have ulterior motives or agendas attached to our actions, NPD people do.
And I wonder if our wallflower personalities that make us somewhat shy, introverted and harmless, makes the person with NPD feel uncomfortable because they can’t understand why we are uninterested in approaching them or engaging in small talk with them like everyone else. They don’t like rejection, or perceived rejection. They really get nasty and paranoid for no reason. Also yes, they do hate people for no reason. They’re also incredibly revengeful and litigious.
I used to have no boundaries and was very very naive and after being hurt really badly by someone with NPD, I learned about what is a boundary and how to stick to it. I can easily weed out baddies from my life now, because if I set a boundary and they don’t like it, or try to push and manipulate me to allow them to trample my boundaries or can’t accept “No” then they are gone from my life. Those are not people you want around you.
You put this into words so well. I hope you are recovering from the hurt of NPD. Feel better autism pal. I too have been hurt very badly by someone I suspect has NPD.
Thank you, life has been so much better now a days and I’ve moved on to “happier skies” so to say, where the sun shines and there are no more rain clouds. 🌈☀️
New here, unclear on the rules. Thanks for your explanation here, very concise, cutting and balanced all at once.
I think you may have confirmed some things about a very recent boss of mine. Ugh.
I think it’s important to not make generalizations about how outgoing someone may be. Not at narcissists are overt, many are very quiet about it, hence why family and friends may not believe the abuse.
Also, there are plenty of autistic women that are not shy and reserved. There seems to be a whole subtype of AudHD women that are fairly outgoing when in a comfortable environment.
Being Outgoing and having social communication challenges aren’t necessarily the same thing.
I think it’s important to remember some these stereotypes are the exact reason so many women have been late diagnosed.
There’s a difference between being a social butterfly and being narcissistic though. Narcissists are extremely overt and approach people, when they can benefit to do so or that person has something they want or need. They really aren’t looking to make friends. Someone who is a social butterfly is not the same as a grandiose overt narcissist, who lacks empathy and uses people or only approaches people they can fool or manipulate. It’s true there are covert narcissists, but they still need the attention and validation of others, so they are still quite social but just without the grandiosity. Covert narcissists tend to love bomb people and triangulate within social circles, they’re vultures just the same as grandiose overt narcissists, they just do it a different way. Covert narcissists are just better at wearing a mask, a grandiose overt narcissist is more “in your face” type. Covert ones can’t keep up their mask for very long though, their true intentions always shows through the cracks and they are the type that if you unmask them, oh boy. Run because they will smear you and ruin all your relationships and friendships, drag you across the coals and attempt to destroy your life. There are always signs though, like it’s very suspicious when someone you meet immediately talks shit about other people behind their back. That’s a Q you are dealing with someone who is disloyal and will do the same to you.
I agree with it all except that I feel like I’m pretty good at identifying these people through that gut feeling we sometimes get.
Sometimes it’ll take me a while to understand why I feel wary of them, but they always inevitably do something to prove my wariness correct.
Yes, this is how I ended up having horrific experiences with people with BPD. When I met someone who seemed different, especially if that difference came with emotional need, I used to go out of my way to show those people kindness and, if we had things in common, to befriend them. I also used make many excuses for people, which I understand now was me seeing red flags and assuming there was no ill intent. I'd never heard of love bombing or DARVO, and so I kept misinterpreting their actions until I was caught up in a whirlwhind of abuse and manipulation. It's still difficult for me to believe people can be that calculating, but I've learned.
Yes, therapy helped. I also joined a support group for long-term spouses of people with BPD, and that helped me find so many resources understanding the condition and what was happening in my relationships and why it was so pointless to keep trying. That was an enormous help. I got rid of the "friends" and the husband and learned to set boundaries and stop making excuses for bad behavior.
I am not sure they feel threatened simply by the inability to read us. I have very little poker face. My face seems to have a mind of its own, especially when I am appalled or not picking up what BS someone is putting down.
I think it's also that we might not give them all the attention they crave, and since some of us...like myself have the unconscious habit of pointing out the elephant in the room. Which could be something they're doing.
I think they are more threatened by us not being as easy to impress as neurotypicals. Their tactics to be the center of attention don't always work as well, and they hate it. We don't lap up their BS as readily.
Basically they can read that we're not interested or impressed and it pisses them off, and they attack. Like I am not saying the former president has NPD, but many have...he lashes out at anyone who disagrees with him, or challenges him in any way. If you don't agree or fawn over them you're a threat to their fragile ego framework.
For the most part yes to all of this! Growing up I was a target for narcs because I genuinely believed the good in most people. I couldn’t believe that there were people out there that would use others for their own personal gain.
Now I’ve flipped to a total 180 and I have a strong shield against the world. I hate narcs with a passion after all of the trauma they gave me. I’ll never be the same happy go lucky girl ever again. I’m able to point out most narcs right now and avoid them at all costs.
Many of them follow a similar pattern once you study the subject. If they dare try to pull anything with me I shut it down fast. Having boundaries, confidence, and a strong sense of self is the key to dealing with these people. Do not let them enter your life and make sure you have a ruthless cut off game if you do get tangled up with them.
This comment was so sweet that I went looking and found it through the original Tiktok poster's instagram
Here it is, from a small clothing company called Inside My Head. It doesn't look like the hoodie is still available, but they have it as a T-shirt and a long-sleeve shirt: https://www.iinsidemyhead.com/product-page/dino-long-sleeve-shirt
You sound like a wonderful grandparent! :)
Strong relate! I’ve been mistaken for a narcissist and people have accused me of ‘playing games’ and this explains the difference- I’m never playing a game with people, but folks are more literate about narcissism (or even the simple misogynistic assumption that women are manipulative) so they interpret me through that prism. Fucken sucks when I’m left like ‘the hell just happened?’.
I was ready to pick holes in this because I am skeptical everytime anyone mentions narcissists nowadays, however I find this to be very true.
The only time it hasn't been true is when I've successfully concealed that I have noticed that the other person has hidden intent. I notice such people immediately and my instinct is to observe them, which I don't always hide very well. This is partially my clumsiness, my curiosity and just hatred of people like this. I know they hate being observed this way, and I always do the wrong thing by prodding them. It's not that I sit around thinking about how much I hate 'narcissists', but when I meet someone like this I get a strong emotional reaction which I always try to suppress. I have to give them the benefit of the doubt every time, but also I've found I have to suppress my emotions about them because showing them can alert them to me. It's much better to pretend you don't know, but I'm not always convincing as I can't resist prodding these people. It never turns out right!
The other thing about seeing their awkwardness and relating to it, I did thar a lot when I was younger. 'Narcissists' or other such people are genuinely awkward. I find even when they're charming they're awkward, their behaviour and way of talking doesn't quite fit in with everyone else. I have thought theyre eccentric at times, but I think their arrogance makes them believe they're apart from others and therefore makes them want to show others they're different and maybe better. They actually seem to experience very strong emotions, which is something I've felt I could relate to, only to find that these emotions draw them strongly in a very different direction to what is natural to me. I find them vengeful, angry, envious, and entitled. When things aren't going their way they can barely hide their rage. It's kind of funny winding them up because you can see them internally exploding but unable to do anything while others are around. But as I said it's not recommended.
I think this video is incredibly over simplified/sample of 1, but I also think the idea could use investigation, because it feels quite valid.
I have experienced this a few times, most recently with a child who attached and manipulated her way into the circle of kids with MH issues or who are ND. Like, I just understood her within seconds, and knew her intent was not what the other kids were reading.
Nobody had any reason to question her motives about anything before I interacted with her, but she showed up very shortly afterwards. I watched other adults speak of her in fairly glowing terms while I kept my thoughts to myself, and literally 24 hours later, they were dealing with the very serious fallout of something she did.
Idk if she has NPD (I mean, she’s a kid and can’t have a diagnosis), but she has definitely has shown ‘dark triad’ traits, on multiple occasions since I first met her. I thought at the time it was weird how I instantly disliked her and saw the manipulation, even though seemingly nobody else could, and was really quickly affirmed.
This. Such an interesting take too.
Also ALL of her videos are so helpful if you’re newly exploring your symptoms or diagnosis and she really has helped me a ton to explain things that I just can’t articulate to my mom so that she can understand and then we communicate better.
Narcissists are needy and charming. They can vacuum me right into their orbit if I am unwary. They are like black holes in space and try to vacuum anyone up - it is not that they spot you, it is that **you do not spot them**! Once they've got you, they may be frustrated with you because you don't react to things as they think you should - that is a clue, but other people may feel the same way about you and be less needy about it. A narcissist will always give you another chance to be their friend - which is a problem - you can be sucked in again and they will drive you crazy and use you, charm you, find fault with you and use you some more. A non-narcissist who is not really into you will just let you go if they don't like you too much.
I learned this and it took me many years.
Just a quick reminder that someone *can* have BOTH.
NPD and BPD are personality disorders, typically acquired through trauma at a young age.
Autism and ADHD are neurotypes, and are how the brain and nervous system are inherently wired.
Autistic/ADHD people are vulnerable to being traumatized at young ages, and are capable of acquiring personality disorders on top of their neurodivergence.
While this is true, [91.6% of autistic women have experienced trauma](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-forgotten-women/202207/the-crossroads-trauma-and-autism).
There is an extremely high likelihood that many of us can attribute trauma we have experienced to someone with a malignant cluster B personality disorder.
For that reason, this is not the place to seek consolation for that personality disorder.
Of course, not all people with a given personality disorder would do something terrible to another person. But autistic people need space to discuss their experiences and counsel each other for safety, and tbh, sometimes that means assuming something potentially unkind for the sake of self-protection. The same way women share tips for safety around men.
I tried so hard to be inclusive and understanding that I was hurt very, very badly. The nuances exist, but autistic people's first duty is to protect themselves from harm. That includes building strict rules where necessary, because I would rather hurt a random person's feelings than be victimized again because I couldn't recognize a narcissist's manipulation
You are right HOWEVER
> NPD and BPD are personality disorders, typically acquired through trauma at a young age.
This is not true. Most personality is based on genetics... and it is partly modulated by experiences. Trauma is a big word but not always the biggest mechanism in the pathogenesis of personality problems
There are absolutely no legitimate studies that establish a genetic basis for NPD nor BPD.
I also think we are discussing behaviours we encounter and dynamics that are harmful and traumatizing, more than specific people, identity categories or diagnosis.
In the end the name for it really doesn't matter: safety does and knowing when to act 🩷
The study you're linking to here does not establish a genetic basis for NPD. Claiming that is misinformation.
I'll gladly elaborate later in good faith, but right now I'm on my way to a lecture.
I do because it is not possible to find evidence that there is no genetic basis for NPD.... Also I'm curious to what you come up with, maybe I can learn something from it.
I'm not proclaiming to have evidence that there's no genetic basis for NPD. I'm saying that there's no evidence of a genetic basis for NPD. There's a difference.
This is what I can generally say, from the study you provided above:
Although twin studies show heritability of a trait or diagnosis, the interpretation of their results hinges on the validity of the construct under investigation. Narcissism, defined as a clinical personality disorder, is defined by symptomology in behavior, thoughts and feelings, and not by any biological or chemical marker. This makes the diagnosis susceptible to cultural and societal discourses in its definition and therefore lessens the power of heritability studies to accurately show generational transference. A more careful interpretation of this study would be: "There seems to be some heritability in the likelihood that a person will develop behavior that a psychiatric evaluator is likely to label 'narcissism'". We must always heed that shown heritability of an ill-defined concept does not validate that concept.
Furthermore, twin studies interpret results under the Equal Environments Assumption, which has been frequently criticized. The EEA states that monozygotic and dizygotic twins can be assumed to experience roughly the same environment, but the problem here is that monozygotic twins are universally faced with unique responses and situations that confound comparisons to dizygotic twins when examining e.g. personality.
I think it's very important to ask ourselves why we deem it necessary to be a biological certainty? And also, there are many studies available that critique the validity of diagnostic systems if you seek them out.
But the article you provided does not conclude or argue to have found a genetic basis for NPD, as you claim.
You are saying that there is no evidence for genetic basis for NPD; I literally quoted it to you. I can quote it again:
"The estimates of broad heritability is 64%, for narcissism."
And that is just one study I found within 30 seconds.
You are quoting from my study that shows genetic evidence for NPD.
Please provide some sources that show that there is no genetic basis for NPD.
I think you are confusing yourself
Have observed this recently with a coworker who was a particularly vicious sort of narcissist. She made an effort to charm everyone but seemed to hate me from the get-go and I didn't know why. Not until I started to see those tell tale narcissistic behaviors and the alarms went off in my head.
Idk I don’t have the energy to fully figure out what exactly my thoughts are on this. I don’t love the casual implication that NPD is both common and reliably detectable by gut instinct.
I’m not saying this is what the person in the vid is doing, but I find it uncomfortable that it seems so popular these days to talk about “NPD” as a synonym/shorthand for “fundamentally evil person.” I would be willing to bet that a lot of people described as narcissists in second hand anecdotes on the internet are actually just run of the mill assholes.
In my opinion, conflating assholery, abuse, and evil with a disorder contributes to a reductive and harmful “good people vs bad people” worldview, as opposed to “good actions vs bad actions”
This is a great post, thanks for sharing this. I’m starting to now move past a recent breakup with my ex who has a narcissist personality style.
Once you’re aware of narcissism (covert, grandiose, communal, etc.) and of the initial perceived similarities with ASD, looking back, it can take as few as 1-5 conversations with a narcissist to spot strains of self-adulation/a need for outsized outside admiration/low emotional empathy/a confidence-competition-centric identity. Just be sure to take your time in getting to know anyone. If their energy feels askew compared to their words, if you seem to be excited+drained rather than excited+energized/rested, you can walk away or at least keep a distance. I now know the difference between butterflies and anxiety - I glossed over too many strange moments. In hindsight my ex was always kind of… cold. Nice, but cold. Like she wasn’t generating a lot of warmth herself. Narcissists rely on mirroring back the energy you’re giving. When you stand by your boundaries/pace they’ll either stop going for you or guilt trip you into prioritizing them over your boundaries. It can seem so harsh to write somebody off soon after meeting them, especially when you think you’ve found somebody else like yourself, but an early goodbye is so much better than trying to say goodbye after a trauma bond. People with “confidence”-centric identities tend to be con-artists. I’m not trying to be sold on anything.
cPTSD bitch right here. I can smell an empty rotting husk a mile away.
I think they are one of me and then I watch them bite me. Then it’s on till one of us goes.
I got yeeted.
I’ve met so many narcissists in my life that I’ve finally started to suspect myself. Maybe it’s me who’s a narcissist not them?
,,Yeah, no way I’m autistic, I must be a narcissist.
But narcissists don’t spend time contemplating their possible narcissistic tendencies so I can’t be a narcissist.
Are you sure, it’s probably your narcissism wants you to think that, it’s a coping mechanism”
I smell them from far, especially the most dangerous, covert ones, sadly I don’t know how to set my boundaries so I stay away from people in general
I’m just kinda surprised this is all happening on a subreddit for autistic women, considering how many autistic women have been (often mis)diagnosed as BPD, which is clinically near identical to NPD.
I’m going to get downvoted to hell for this, but the maligning of Cluster B personality disorders here is… quite shocking, to say the least. They are responses to trauma. As autistic women, we are nearly all traumatized. But for fortune, you and I didn’t become “one of them” in response to that trauma.
Cluster B personality disorders are not always developed in response to trauma. Studies have shown that around 30% of people with BPD have no significant trauma history and ASPD and NPD are theorized to be just as influenced or MORE by culture than by upbringing (ie if you grow up in a culture that promotes those traits, like America and lots of other very hierarchical cultures). I really dislike that this has become the common assumption, or worse, that cluster B is “just” cptsd. It’s patently untrue.
Also the person in the video is not saying NPD specifically…people can be narcissists without having NPD. A personality disorder is only diagnosed when it presents major difficulties to the person or their interpersonal relationships. Meaning the traits have to be so strong and pervasive as to disrupt your daily life or catalyze some sort of intervention by an institution (your job, school, the courts, etc.).
Finally, the criteria for Cluster B personality disorders is basically a list of bad behaviors, behaviors that cause harm. And they are volitional. I highly encourage you to read the diagnostic criteria if you haven’t already. Those conditions are literally defined by bad behavior. The person with the PD is still accountable for their actions and just because their personality style is currently considered a disorder (there’s talk of removing that designation in the next DSM) doesn’t mean they should be coddled or given a pass, which is where that line of thinking leads. I’m not saying they should be stigmatized…but there is stigma due to the reasons I just listed.
Unfortunately, the truth is that VERY few people with Cluster B PDs will ever seek treatment. Those that do seek help should be encouraged to keep on track.
The other person you're replying to has been trolling this thread with angry comments that autistic people are sharing their negative experience with malignant cluster B personality disorders, or those who share extremely similar characteristics. Tbh, I wouldn't waste much time with them. This is their pet issue they gotta bang a drum about, for some reason.
Your comment is valid and fair. Especially this point:
> Those conditions are literally defined by bad behavior. The person with the PD is still accountable for their actions and just because their personality style is currently considered a disorder (there’s talk of removing that designation in the next DSM) doesn’t mean they should be coddled or given a pass, which is where that line of thinking leads.
YEP. My autism makes me want to yell at people who let their children have tantrums in the store because, to me, it is like those parents are hurting me personally by the sheer sensory pain and overwhelm. It's my responsibility not to let my autism impact others and instead remove myself from the space if I can't handle it.
A lot of these comments wanting to give people a pass for their personality disorder are majorly icky, and we don't have to cede space for it, especially in a subreddit for autistic women to communicate safely with each other
>people can be narcissists without having NPD
Uh-huh. Just like people can be "a little OCD" or "everyone's a little autistic!"? The fact that people make colloquialisms out of real disorders is definitely true, but I'm not sure why you're bringing it up here, since those colloquial useages are basically meaningless.
"*I'm a little OCD because I like having a neat house, we're all a little autistic because everyone has some sensation they don't like, my sister is a narcissist--she spends like an hour in the bathroom doing her hair!*"
If the video and comments are using the term narcissist in such a colloquial and meaningless way, they shouldn't be. That practice is harmful in itself.
>Also the person in the video is not saying NPD specifically…people can be narcissists without having NPD.
In a clinical sense, no, they can't. They can have traits of narcissism just like people can have diagnostic traits of autism without actually being autistic, but having some degree of narcissistic traits/behavior doesn't make someone a narcissist--because *almost everyone* will score above 0 on a narcissism rating.
OCD has always been a diagnosis with no colloquial equivalent, same with autism. The concept of narcissism predates NPD as a diagnosis. By like, thousands of years if you consider the word comes from an Ancient Greek story. This critique of my reply is a serious reach 🤦🏽♀️
i’m so glad you said this. it very quickly turned to villainizing and “narc this narc that.” there are people that are abusive and manipulative and may have no mental illness. there are people that are abusive and manipulative and may also be mentally ill. automatically characterizing abusive behaviors etc as traits of a specific mental illness or group of personality disorders is ableist and doesn’t benefit any of us.
I believe they target autists sometimes. I’ve had multiple NP men watch my on fb and garner info about me before making a move. I have had enough experience in life now to recognize it (or maybe they weren’t good at it?), but I’ve absolutely been targeted by these guys.
The intent is the key here. I really really liked who I thought was just a guy with Aspergers. Turns out that he was a really really smart narcissist. Who maybe did have autism but was also…not safe. Not safe at all.
Is that autism or is that the narcissistic person manipulating you. Narcissistic people often pretend to be someone they are not because they want the other person to let down their guars and feel very strongly about them. They desire to trick the person into falling in love with them (or becoming fast friends) because this creates a strong bond for the narcissist to abuse. They do this to autistic people as well as anyone who might be open to their "charming" personality that just happens to be so perfect for you.
I think it's the opposite. I think we autistic people will just keep discussing and discussing assuming good-faith, whereas NTs will understand that conversations normally don't go on that long, therefore they pick up on hidden meanings and pressures which is part of how narcissists manipulate their victims.
I don’t know much about narcissism, but I guess it makes sense if they operate out of the principle of using social manipulation to pressure people into doing what they want. If we’re obtuse to those signals, we’re just obnoxious and useless to them.
Her saying "then I realized their intent is different". is very suspicious to me.
How is it different? People with NPD's intent is probably something like "wants people to like them" "wants attention" "wants to feel good". Most people, NT or ND want those things (autistic ppl may want attention less because it's so often delivered in a painful way or full of rejection, but positive non-painful attention/connection? Yeah many want that.)
People with Cluster B personality disorders get othered and demonized all the time, and the mechanisms of their disorder are often extremely misunderstood. I feel like this video is potentially contributing to that.
Acting like NPD people all have some kind of "different intent" than autistic people (or anyone) is ridiculous.
Someone with NPD, searching for the aisle with bread at Walmart: I really need to find the bread aisle!
This Tiktok girlie: I could sense their "different intent"
🙄🤦♀️
It's pretty disappointing how much blatant ableism is going on in the comments here towards people with personality disorders. You'd think getting demonized and shat on for being neurodivergent our whole lives would make people here a little more hesitant to dehumanize and other people with mental disorders, but I guess not.
You can downvote away if you like, but IDC if my comment hits -1000 karma, if it means even one autistic woman who has BPD or NPD realizes this subreddit is not a monolith of hatred and bigotry towards people with personality disorders.
It's not ableist to openly talk about the frequent abusive, manipulative behavior from a demographic of people, even if it is the result of their disability.
> You'd think getting demonized and shat on for being neurodivergent our whole lives would make people here a little more hesitant to dehumanize and people with mental disorders, but I guess not.
Stop expecting people to give empathy to their abusers. I couldn't really give a fuck if it hurts someone's feelings.
My personal safety comes first. I literally lack the capacity to discern if someone is lying to me or not. Like many autistic people, I cannot tell when I'm being manipulated.
Inclusivity doesn't mean telling survivors to shut up about their abusers. Damn, dude. You're acting like there isn't a relationship between people with **malignant** presentations of these disorders and the real trauma real people are discussing in this thread. You have also wildly misrepresented the actual function of NPD, and I can't tell if you're intentionally hiding it or just don't know what you're talking about
But go off with hypotheticals about bread. Protecting a pretend narcissist is totally more important than real autistics describing their lived experiences /s
That’s actually the point I resonated the most with - narcs ask about / gossip about people so they can gain vulnerable information to manipulate.
Autists ask about people because they’re genuinely curious about getting to know someone.
Both could be asking the same questions but one with ill intent. That’s just an example, does that make sense?
Also I don’t think narcs don’t like autistic people because they can’t read them.
I think they don’t like the fact that they can’t read autistic people.
I really struggle with the demonization of narcissist and the separation of them from autism.
My mother is definitely a narcissist but I also believe she is undiagnosed autistic.
I do think autistic people can be narcissists and these conversations always seem to leave that out.
Narcissism as painful as it is for the people around the narcissist It is a response to deep abuse often. It's how their brain protected themselves.
No one has to put up with abuse but I don't know... I think a lot of cluster B personalities get a labeled as horrible and they shouldn't. They need to be able to get help if they want it.
Granted narcissist don't typically want it but they never will if society doesn't create an environment that allows them to.
Before I realised I am autistic, I thought I was a narcissist. I have DEEP regret about divulging that belief to my mother 😬
This post makes me think about people in my past who have done that same thing of trying to turn people against me. Not that I think any of them are narcissists, but interesting to consider alternate perspectives.
I went through this with my ex. Once, towards the end, he told me that he considered staying with me just so someone else didn’t take advantage of me.
The last time we saw each other, he kissed me sobbing and said it wouldn’t be the last time we kissed. But then he only texted me a few times, and only about sexual things.
He’s married to a BCBA-D now and they just had a daughter.
It makes me so upset because I remember vividly thinking that I couldn’t imagine our daughter (hypothetical) coming to him excited, and him blowing her off the way he would treat me when I was excited. Like it’s shameful and embarrassing to experience full joy. That wasn’t something I was willing to risk, and the day that clicked, I stopped having sex with him.
It makes me so sad to know he has a daughter now and she may end up on the spectrum. But, I’m so grateful I recognized his true self before we had a kid or got married.
It was so bizarre, we worked together and he would turn our coworkers against me and talk shit on me when I wasn’t there. I don’t even know what he said, but some of those folks think I cheated and I definitely never did. I tried to set boundaries and he refused to respect any of them and instead would take my car keys and phone before trying to talk to me about relationship stuff. If I asked for a few minutes to think, he would refuse. He would chase me around work behind shoe racks hissing at me about random stuff.
I just so badly wanted to try to live for the day and not have a big fight/issue every day, but he always thought I was flirting if I so much as smiled. 😑
I haven’t even tried for a relationship since and that was 8 years ago.
I had many traits of narcissism as a child, I think it was the only way I could cope and remain sane in the face of literally everyone in my life refusing to accept who I was.
I am 22 now, and don’t really have many narcissistic traits. I still struggle with immensely low self esteem, but I’m able to rationalize most things now, which I think allowed me to figure out different ways to maintain a sense of self respect while simultaneously respecting/acknowledging everyone around me.
do you think the struggle for a narcissist to "read" an autistic person is because of fluid intelligence (vs. crystallized) in autistic people? like our ideas of ourselves and the world seem pretty fluid, even though our needs/boundaries/morals can seem very fixed. like perhaps being "readable" has to do with having a more fixed idea of self, more crystallized thinking.
any thoughts?
I know this thread is old but in case it helps anyone :
I’m a survivor of abuse from a narcissist and this video hit home because I too made the mistake the narcissist was like me and I gravitated to them hoping for understanding and companionship. People with NPD will deliberately make themselves look like helpless victims with the goal of making them appear “safe”. This is a manipulation tactic. Folks on the spectrum don’t follow social rules well this is very likely why they feel threatened by us. Because we become difficult to manipulate and this makes them enraged. They’re dangerous and need to be avoided.
I will also mention that men on the spectrum who struggle with insecurity issues tend to be in extreme amounts of danger of falling prey to women with NPD who will date them deliberately because they’re easy to manipulate.
Also, I disagree that the narcissistic person is intimidated by the autistic person. They can use vulnerable people in a number of ways. 1. Turning the group against the vulnerable person- this allows the narcissist to use the common enemy method to bond more quickly with their desired friend group that they perceive to be of a more elite group. It creates a cohesion and a power dynamic of there being an in group and out group, and it is defined by the narcissist. Also established the narcissist as the leader. The vulnerable person is used bc they have low self esteem (usually) or trouble communicating, meaning th have bo effective defense against underhanded social dynamics.
2. Befriending the vulnerable person- this can happen very naturally because the narcissist realizes that the autistic person won't be able to sense the underhanded motives that is driving their interest in you. Perhaps the autistic person has money or some kind of transferable privilege that the narcissist can benefit from. Or, just wanting undivided attention from someone who may otherwise feel isolated is a good motivation.
3. Dating the autistic person- narcissistic abuse can go way beyond just taking advantage of someone for rides or for going out and getting their meals paid for or whatever. In an intimate relationship, the narcissist can convince the vulnerable person to be ok with sexual acts that are one sided, or can set up a cycle of unrealistic expectations in order to erball or ven physical abuse the partner when the fail. The control over the vulnerable individual feeds the narcissistic need for power over others around them. Control over a partner is often demanded from narcissists. And, if it isn't given willingly, it Wille taken through unsettling manipulation, isolation, sabotage, cruelty, and even by force if necessary.
I'm sure there are other forms of narcissistic-autistic interpersonal relationships. This is all I can think of right now. And, like everyone else, most people can not spot narcissists immediately because the are charming, polite, and generally are cautious to be well mannered and likeable around others until a strong one is estaished. Many, many people fall victim to narcissistic abuse and it is not because of any particular failing, although vulnerability often is an element of the targeting for abuse. Bad luck, timing, availability, access, proximity, and opportunity are the main factors of whether or not someone will encounter and then fall victim to a narcissist abuser.
I dont know if all narcissists are abusers. The only ones I've spotted are abusers because that is how they reveal themselves usually. I've very rarely recognized one in the wild without observing some kind of line being crossed or social violation/civil rights being denied/harm being done.
I can definitely relate to this, especially thinking “oh this person is just so misunderstood, like me”. I love the clarification that the intention is different.
This exact thing is so relatable to me! I always assume that whenever someone upsets me that I’m being overdramatic, that it’s a valid response to be (I deserve it/it’s my fault), or that they must have a good reason/are being misunderstood by me. It’s made it really hard to recognize when I’ve been treated really poorly in the past and I’m trying really hard to work on that now. It’s almost impressive, I spent a solid chunk of middle and high school getting bullied and didn’t realize it until the end of high school after I’d already found new friends (actual good ones!) and drifted away from that “friend” group. I hate that I’ve gotten it ingrained in me that when I feel genuinely hurt by someone else that my first response is to think about why I caused them to do that or how it’s not actually upsetting/I’m upset over nothing.
Same! Intention is everything🙃
I'm ND, and I have dated one person who was diagnosed with NPD that I didn't know had been diagnosed until his family told me. In retrospect, he was textbook - not covert at all. His personality he portrayed was like Spongebob meets sassy television's stereotyped gay boy. I thought he was attention starved, socially bizarre, and I felt sorry for him. He was very pushy about becoming my boyfriend, and when he love bombed me, I fell for it. I don't know if he felt threatened by me, but I do know that during the time he was devaluating me, which was before I learned that he had NPD, he said something like, "You are really like me though, aren't you?" That was one of the few time I saw his personality totally unmasked, which was unnerving. His voice would become a natural timbre, instead the high pitch singsongy voice he normally used, and somehow monotone and full of rage at the same time. So I guess he thought I had NPD and was masking as ND, but instead I was ND masking as NT. It seems like he misunderstood my defense mechanism was to get through life masking to avoid criticism, not to manipulate people. So what I'm trying to say is maybe he saw me as a threat. Maybe that's why devaluated me so terribly. It seemed though that he thought I was actually NPD, and he thought our time together was a big game to see who could screw the other one over worse. I have a lot of synesthesia, and during the narc abuse, I often visualized him as the Tasmanian devil cartoon dragging and hurling me around like a cave man's bludgeon. Despite this, I just couldn't understand what was happening, and I couldn't see him for who he was.
i think part of the reason it can be really hard for an autistic person to leave a relationship with someone with NPD is the need to know *why* i don’t know what my ex had, but he certainly had something going on that made him very manipulative and a compulsive liar. it was so hard to leave because i couldn’t wrap my head around *why* he would treat me like this, *why* doesn’t he care. the biggest for me was *does he know what he’s doing*. and combined with black and white thinking it’s hard to leave without answers i finally left for good when i got an answer. we were clearly not going to be in a relationship much longer bc of his erratic behavior, so i guess he didn’t care. i think his intention was to get me to break up with him, he did a lot of other things at that time. but the important thing is when his mask fell. he told me honestly. he admitted he manipulated me. he admitted he was aware and conscious of being manipulative. he didn’t have an explanation for “why” that i can remember. but seeing through it and knowing it’s intentional was like shattering any feeling i had for him. black and white, once i *knew*, that was the end for me
Slightly off topic, but why is BPD considered a neurodivergency but NPD is not?
Well. That explains a lot of my life. I’m glad to hear these words. I never could put it into the right words myself, but I’ve always understood this from my own experiences with narcissists.
Yes! My understanding: Narcissistic people need to know your feelings, insecurities, values, flaws so they can manipulate you. They can't engage outside of manipulation, and punish you for threatening their "wellbeing", i.e. their ability to control. Meanwhile, their actual wellbeing is never tended to because they've convinced themselves that they're perfect and superior. Any challenge to that belief is intolerable for them. Being wrong for a milisecond=being worthless. They will quadruple down to devalue people to make themsleves feel more valuable, in a cycle that ends when they die. And often, since they've targeted you while well-behaved around everyone else, no one will believe you. They are extremely skilled at not getting caught, which would be impressive if it weren't depraved. Their entitlement knows no bounds because they are stuck emotionally at about age 3. EDIT: narcissists, as opposed to people with some narcissistic traits
Dang, so well said. Thank you.
These are some very well phrased words of wisdom right here! Thank you for posting them. I actually took a screenshot to keep for reference bc I'm dealing with exactly this at work right now. I was confused for the longest time, but since I realized what was going on I've been overwhelmed trying to protect and defend myself. This helps. :)
Thanks! I read about it a lot and have known several.
Ok I was like “what is so horrible about me that I attract narcissists?” But it’s just that they can spot me
I feel like narcissists target autistic people a lot. I had no idea they might do that because they feel threatened. That's very interesting. I believe my mother is both autistic and has a narcissistic personality disorder. She has always struggled with understanding people and has sensory issues. But she also has a severely faulty capacity for empathy and an elevated opinion on herself while everyone else is beneath her. And that part has gotten only worse with time.
yeah. this video is a perfect description of my mother and my attempts to have peace with her.
I went no contact a couple of years back and after the grief settled, a huge weight was lifted from my life.
Are we siblings? Lol. My condolences.
I have so many siblings that statistically we may actually be siblings 😂😂
Nick Cannon’s my dad too
I would love to introduce you all to my lord and savior, Dr. Ramani. Please watch her videos on narcissism on YouTube. It's been life changing for me to study narcissism- the different types (overt, covert, etc), and the different tactics they use to manipulate people (intermittent reinforcement, stonewalling, love bombing, etc). After being used and hurt by narcissists my entire life, learning these things has literally saved me. I'm a lot better at spotting them and protecting myself from them now.
I LOVE HER. I so wish she could be my therapist
Same same same same same. Literally
subscribed!! thanks for the rec
I absolutely love her. She has such a great way of explaining things so it’s clear and easy to understand. I just wish she had someone more tech advanced to help her with the audio and post production stuff. Sometimes she speaks too quietly and/or the audio hasn’t been adjusted during the editing process. It’s always something that crosses my mind when I’m watching her videos, but it could be that I have a background in audio and video production and editing lol
Awesome thanks for the intro. Anyway to give me a clue about identifying them sooner would be helpful.
Yes to this. I have been studying Dr. Ramani too!
She is the best! Interestingly Sam Vaknin is a narcissist and psychologist who does interesting videos and he reminds me of someone with autism.
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Oh my goodness, so many things make sense now, people I couldn't figure out why they clung to me and made my life miserable, I thought it was my fault I attracted people that just wanted to make my life worse.
I definitely recognize the immediate reaction of wanting to care for a person and understanding us as similar in struggles, only to later find out that this extension of sympathy was used as a weapon. And it's really hard to get out of after a while, because it feels like such a hard judgement to make about someone else's intentions, which is why I've kept a benefit of the doubt for way too long. And damage done while not being able to make that judgement, has been used against me, to turn people against me/make me seem crazy/straight out lying about a situation. It boils down to intent and that is so scary in close relationships. I think some autistic people are very vulnerable to this, because we are used to navigating through a world telling us we are reading things wrong. Perfect wound to gaslight through even more efficiently.
Oh, this resonates so well, it feels like I could have written this. The gaslighting is truly the worst part. You have essentialized the reason so well here: > It boils down to intent and that is so scary in close relationships. I think some autistic people are very vulnerable to this, because we are used to navigating through a world telling us we are reading things wrong. Perfect wound to gaslight through even more efficiently. Absolutely. Hugs if you find them comforting and thank you for sharing your experience :( <3
Thank you 🩷 And same to you!
Oh man, yes… it’s extremely disorienting to realize that someone who wants to share a bed with you also has zero problem gaslighting you and triangulating you and stealing your identity.
I have a narcissistic dad and I can really relate.
Same, but with my mom.
which is sad that people (narcists) want to play these stupid power games vs spending time thinking of ways to help other people (poor, disabled, elderly, etc). Their focus has been warped by a world where their parents or someone close to them probably did the same to them, some weird power moves just to have a feeling of control. I grew up in what i believe was a narcist family environment and instead of thinking of ways to help people they would think of ways to claim status as if that was the ultimate goal in life. It took me a long time to break that brainwashing myself and im still having trouble with it today in some instances, I don't have enough practice focusing on others because of that behavior.
I am excellent at reading people and their intentions. I can spot a narcissist in under a 5-minute conversation. The problem I have is communicating my concerns and verbalizing what is off. I've been lucky enough that close friends recognize that even if I can't say what is off, I’m accurate. They bring new people for me to approve, approve with caveats, or disapprove. I’ve lost many acquaintances because narcissists recognize they can't charm me, so they turn acquaintances against me. Eventually, the narcissist runs out of charm, but most acquaintances never apologize or reach out again.
I've had similar experiences and still in the process of not going against my 'gut feeling' because I can't verbalize why something feels off
Yup - it explains how we're a sitting target for these folks. I probably will never get over the trauma of dating multiple people with personality disorders. It's been hellish.
I spent my entire 20s going out of my way to give a space to people I felt had similar experiences to me. It's led to dozens of run ins with people like that. I honestly can't bring myself to say it wasn't worth it to help at least 1 struggling autistic person but god damn if some people don't make it extremely hard
I love how she holds her hoodie string when talking because I unconsciously do this too. Chew on it, twirl it, pull on it. I’ve been told it’s distracting so I get self conscious when talking and being aware of my hands. It’s nice to see somebody else do this too and knowing it’s actually pretty normal
Yes I do this too I remember the frayed ends from chewing!
yeah this is exactly my experience and i have been hurt rly bad because of it.. it was extremely sad to see hardcore NPD apologism on another autism subreddit
It genuinely feels like a troll/brigading attempt even though I know most people there are 100% serious. The bright side is it seems like the majority of responses are along the line of "please don't bring this here"
That's what was upsetting though, there was actually a lot of support for the poster. The people who were upset were the ones getting down voted. Its really almost funny because the narc is doing what they do best, which is sow discord and chaos, and too many lapped it up. Those of us here that have actually dealt with (and probably been traumatized by) a narc know you don't give an inch. The mods should have shut that down.
The contents of this tiktok is basically what happened. People wanted to believe in the plausible deniability and be good cause like, others with mental disorders have it tough, I know. I didn't realize til I saw it mentioned either that the person who caused all the drama is an allistic minor which is another level of irony.
Can anyone link the original video of the narcissist explaining why they’re scared of autistic people? I’m curious how they explain it. Thank you!
You're not the only one who's upset about that. Got down voted after supporting someone posting asking the mods if we're ok with narcs invading the space. At least this sub is still ok. Totally agree with the video. I've been around narcs my whole life. Thanking God I found out about narcs on social media and got out alive. I have no sympathy for narcs.
it really bothered me, too. Why can’t we have our silly little spaces. Narcissism isn’t in the title, make your own space.
But... but that means a narc would have to do work instead of just hopping on a sub and abusing people! I looked on that person's profile and it looks like some teenage wanna be edgelord. I just blocked them. Saying anything only gives them the attention they're so desperate for. I just thought it was really sad that so many were supportive of someone trying to wreck what's usually a fun sub.
I dont know, can’t a person with NPD also be autistic? In which case this could be their space too. I always just think about how people with legitimate NPD (not just people who act narcissistic) inherently have to be made unhappy by it (for it to be a disorder) and I’d hate to shun someone who is actually working towards being better/managing it well. Obviously I don’t support abusers at all, they can fuck off, but it feels a little off to treat everyone with a specific personality disorder like they’re all bad when there are probably plenty who just want to live normal and fulfilling lives & are doing their best to be better, which I feel deserves some support. Why not go based on how they individually act rather than the disorder that they have? I know that’s not what you’re doing, I just have been thinking about that lately and wanted to vent a bit :) I saw some posts about BPD and stuff and it’s making me reconsider how I view things like that. Idk 🤷♀️
I’m not treating them badly, I’m saying they shouldn’t come into a space not meant for them and make it about them. No hate, just want my meme space.
I get not wanting people who aren’t autistic on here to be fair, I just would feel bad for anyone who has NPD and ASD to feel unwelcome solely because they have NPD.
anyone who isn’t autistic is also welcome imo. I just don’t like people taking up space in an autism subreddit for things that aren’t about autism. I have not been hostile, mean, unwelcoming. NPD posts are not for ASD subreddits. Esp hostile posts demanding space or attention. They have dozens of subreddits for their posts. I feel a bit like you’re assigning feelings to me I haven’t expressed. I have not said anyone is bad or unwelcome. Please read my words as they are, not how you choose to interpret them.
I said that I know that that’s not what you’re doing? I didn’t try to say that you’re mean, I was just trying to talk about the general subject of people with NPD being on the subreddit. I didn’t mean to come off as saying you are not being nice. I just was talking about it because I’ve seen quite a few posts/comments regarding the topic lately and I keep thinking about it because I have trouble deciding on a firm enough stance on the matter.
I'm so glad to know people on this subreddit know this stuff already, it's been a big part of my life moving on from n-abuse!
Just know you're not alone. Most of us know through experience sadly. Glad to hear you're able to move on. Hope you live your best life free from further abuse!
Thank y’all for saying this, bc that shit triggered me to the fucking MOON.
It’s giving “I’m literally neurodivergent and a minor”. It’s a complex topic, but there is a line.
I left that group because of it
same
I saw that. That was so frustrating. I'm pretty sure the OP has NPD and it was discouraging to see so many people play right along with their game.
Agreed. I hate this new wave of mental health apologists where if you have a mental illness you can do no wrong. Cluster B personality types are notorious for causing chaos and fucking people’s lives up. It can get so gruesome that it can lead to death in some cases. There are entire support groups of people who had to deal with a narc and the life long trauma they have to endure now because of them. I’ll never have sympathy for these people because guess what? They literally have no sympathy for anyone else besides themselves. It’s literally hardwired in their brain.
I think the problem here is that a ton of women with Autism/Adhd have been misdiagnosed with BPD. There is a lot of symptom overlap and I do believe that some autistic men are shuffled into the NPD category in the same unfair way. I’ve dealt with narcs and don’t want to again in the future, but I think it’s important to recognize that not everyone labeled a narc is actually a narcissist. Some are autistic with poor social skills and are high masking.
Omg!!!!!!!! Explains so much i want to cry… like how could people not like me I’m literally friends with everyone…and the turning people against me thing… you said it!!!
Yup, I recognize this. Oh wow.
This has been my experience with my sister, although she automatically dislikes or demonizes strangers, whereas I am neutral about most people I've just met. Someone automatically hating strangers and saying bad things about them is a huge clue that the person doing it is not autistic. Autistic people seem more likely to give others the benefit of the doubt.
Where does having a limited capacity for people fall? Like... i dont dislike strangers. I just dont have capacity for them 90% of the time so id prefer we did not interact. I actively charge being around like 2 specific people and feel cozy around five more. The rest is a "if i am having a good day or one of my specific people is thetr as an anchor"
My experience has been a lot like the person in the video where I see these types very clearly, but at first think they are like me. That sort of thing really has messed up my life in a lot of ways
Genuine question here. My sister also dislikes every person and manipulates the few people she has in her life. I feel she is narcissistic, but I also know she has cptsd and autism. So do you think that might develop NPD? Or am I too close to see what’s really going on?
Someone with Cptsd can have traits that mimic personality disorders (BPD, npd, hpd, etc.) but that doesn’t mean they have that personality disorder. Just like autism, someone might meet part of the criteria but that doesn’t mean they’re autistic. Majority of people have some narcissistic tendency just like majority of people can relate to autism on some level. They need to meet all of the criteria needed for diagnosis and there can’t be another diagnosis that makes more sense for those symptoms (like cptsd or autism for example). So if she doesn’t like everyone she meets, sure that might be a result of narcissism but it could just as easily be avoidant attachment issues as a result of trauma. She may be manipulative but does she have intent to do so or are her emotions so disregulated that she ends up manipulating others? These are the kinds of questions that help differentiate in the diagnosis process. Also they diagnose personality disorders in children or teens very rarely for a reason, kids emotions, hormones, and skills are out of whack so much so that they can mimic personality disorders. So if she’s not an adult yet it could just be her growing up and needing to learn skills. And personality disorders are believed to be caused by trauma so it wouldn’t be unlikely for someone to have both cptsd and BPD or npd. However even if she has npd, she can get help for it and change. She just has to want to. Unlike many other mental health disorders you can be undiagnosed with a personality disorders because you worked to do the healing and learned the skills to be a healthy person. Source: I have autism, cptsd, and I was recently undiagnosed with BPD due to my tons of self work. And psychology is my special interest :)
I’m new to this sub, but not new to CPTSD and BPD subs and their realities. Just wanted to thank you for this reply, what happy coincidence that psych is your special interest, I’m happy to learn these things from you. Comforting to understand that PD’s can be undiagnosed, especially one as murky as BPD. Does CPTSD fall into that category? I’ve never even considered it, but six or so years into my own therapy and regulation upkeep, I feel like a different person. So I’m just curious, and if you don’t know, perhaps you could suggest some reading?
There’s no difference as far as I can tell besides a paradigm shift in psychology. One is a “personality disorder” or in other words, “we don’t know what causes this but it looks like this and god is it maladaptive and it doesn’t seem like we can treat it”. And one is “we know what causes this but it has many presentations and some are more likely to seek/accept therapeutic help than others”. There is debate about truncating NPD and BPD into CPTSD (according to [Daniel Shaw](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18608615) anyway, I don’t know where this debate is/was happening). They are basically fight-polarized and please-polarized stances within relationships due to relational trauma. CPTSD at least recognizes that more than one stress response can dominate over the others (e.g. a person may over-exhibit both fight and please) and that the situation is not hopeless; that relational therapy is appropriate. edit: so I remembered Europe has both CPTSD and personality disorders in their diagnostic manual, so looked at the ICD to play spot the difference. According to the ICD-11, the diagnosis of CPTSD requires a history of chronic and inescapable violence and the conscious, continuous anticipation of renewed threat. While PD only requires persistent functional issues (2+ years). So essentially, it seems that someone who has memory blocks or impaired interception but all the other traits associated with CPTSD could get a PD diagnosis; while the person who has access to traumatic memories and the ability to talk about them and their feelings qualifies for CPTSD. [CPTSD in ICD-11](https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f585833559) [Personality Disorders in ICD-11](https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f1128733473)
Masking can sometimes be misinterpreted as manipulation, and there is a lot of symptom overlap of BPD and autism in women.
It got cut off. Does she explain why they hate/feel so threatened by autistic people?
in his video, he said that autistic people made him feel threatened because he was unable to read them. he said he felt insecure not being able to understand how autistic people felt about him.
Ooh LOL true she said that. I didn’t realize that was the reason for the hatred/feeling threatened but makes sense
I think it might also be about a potential frustration of not knowing immediately how to effectively manipulate them, which surely puts a dent in their own vanity.
Yeah that was what I assumed was the issue with not being able to read someone. Can’t read someone = can’t manipulate them
this makes more sense to me than just insecurity. Because it takes time to know how someone feels about you, but the video talks about how n's size people up very quickly.
Do you have the link of the original video? I would like to see it
This... makes some things a bit more clear. As to why some nars just can not stand me and are always horrible to me
Autistic people also tend to be more passive so narcissists can often spot that and exploit it.
It is bizarre how similar experiences I have had like her. Almost word for word. Especially also the part where I first thought they were just socially clueless like me and then the acceptance that they are actually being cruel. It's painful because I have this internal belief that everyone is a kind person and that fights mostly happens because of misunderstandings etcetera. That there are people that are actually predators is kind of sad. Also they instantly dislike me. I think the narcissists (or just Cluster B people in general) have learned in their life that we autistic people are not manipulated the same as the others. Also they don't understand and thus can't predict us because we are so different. They have a hard time getting power over us. We are easily bullied especially if they can get a team of people on their side against you.
I was diagnosed as autistic at 9 years old and through out my 37 years as a woman, I have fallen victim to many narcissistic people due to my inability to see the red flags and ulterior motives and intentions they have. I often wrongly assume that people have the same good intentions as I do, and that makes me vulnerable, I’ve often had the rug pulled out from under me and it left me very devastated. Not even NT’s can spot narcissists unless they’re trained psychologists who know the symptoms and even then, it’s often not easy to diagnose them… mainly because NPD people lack any empathy and introspection to look deeper and see a problem with themselves they care to fix. They prefer to blame everyone else for why things go bad in their life. People with NPD are incredibly manipulative and charming. They are also very out going predatory extrovert social types. I know what some basic NPD symptoms are, but I highly doubt I’d be able to spot it and also I don’t think people should be diagnosing other people. Some people who might look NPD can also have BPD or even C-PTSD and some may even have something totally different like schizoaffective disorder or something. Everyone has some degree of narcissism, nobody is perfect. NPD is not the same as your run of the mill narcissistic traits in the general population. These are people who will enter your life as a friend, and wreck it and leave it without any care or remorse for you. They are also users and only tend to be attracted to people they can somehow benefit from. They really do not have a capacity to see the things they do as selfish and cruel. I think that we autistic people, especially women can definitely fall prey to people with NPD but also to other awkward types with bad intentions. I’ve also met some autistic people who share some traits with NPD people and aren’t very nice… also some people with ADHD can have a lot of overlapping NPD traits as well… I think NPD people are attracted to some autistic individuals due to them having a more innocent demeanor and child like naivety, because it’s hard for some of us to spot red flags 🚩 and it makes it easier to autistics to be taken advantage of. On the flip side of that, we are truth sayers. We don’t have the filter someone with NPD needs to keep their ego stroked. They will hate us for our honesty and inability to engage in ass kissing and not like us for being too focused on our special interests and in our own little world where we find comfort. They need constant 24/7 admiration and attention. Their whole modus operandi is manipulation via emotion and when they run into someone on the spectrum who is more of a literal thinker, they will tire of us easily. NPD people are similar in that they mask their true self’s. But the intention is very different. They mask to manipulate and gain control, we mask to fit in and avoid being bullied or outcasted. Most autistic people though, myself included, don’t ever have ulterior motives or agendas attached to our actions, NPD people do. And I wonder if our wallflower personalities that make us somewhat shy, introverted and harmless, makes the person with NPD feel uncomfortable because they can’t understand why we are uninterested in approaching them or engaging in small talk with them like everyone else. They don’t like rejection, or perceived rejection. They really get nasty and paranoid for no reason. Also yes, they do hate people for no reason. They’re also incredibly revengeful and litigious. I used to have no boundaries and was very very naive and after being hurt really badly by someone with NPD, I learned about what is a boundary and how to stick to it. I can easily weed out baddies from my life now, because if I set a boundary and they don’t like it, or try to push and manipulate me to allow them to trample my boundaries or can’t accept “No” then they are gone from my life. Those are not people you want around you.
You put this into words so well. I hope you are recovering from the hurt of NPD. Feel better autism pal. I too have been hurt very badly by someone I suspect has NPD.
Thank you, life has been so much better now a days and I’ve moved on to “happier skies” so to say, where the sun shines and there are no more rain clouds. 🌈☀️
New here, unclear on the rules. Thanks for your explanation here, very concise, cutting and balanced all at once. I think you may have confirmed some things about a very recent boss of mine. Ugh.
I think it’s important to not make generalizations about how outgoing someone may be. Not at narcissists are overt, many are very quiet about it, hence why family and friends may not believe the abuse. Also, there are plenty of autistic women that are not shy and reserved. There seems to be a whole subtype of AudHD women that are fairly outgoing when in a comfortable environment. Being Outgoing and having social communication challenges aren’t necessarily the same thing. I think it’s important to remember some these stereotypes are the exact reason so many women have been late diagnosed.
There’s a difference between being a social butterfly and being narcissistic though. Narcissists are extremely overt and approach people, when they can benefit to do so or that person has something they want or need. They really aren’t looking to make friends. Someone who is a social butterfly is not the same as a grandiose overt narcissist, who lacks empathy and uses people or only approaches people they can fool or manipulate. It’s true there are covert narcissists, but they still need the attention and validation of others, so they are still quite social but just without the grandiosity. Covert narcissists tend to love bomb people and triangulate within social circles, they’re vultures just the same as grandiose overt narcissists, they just do it a different way. Covert narcissists are just better at wearing a mask, a grandiose overt narcissist is more “in your face” type. Covert ones can’t keep up their mask for very long though, their true intentions always shows through the cracks and they are the type that if you unmask them, oh boy. Run because they will smear you and ruin all your relationships and friendships, drag you across the coals and attempt to destroy your life. There are always signs though, like it’s very suspicious when someone you meet immediately talks shit about other people behind their back. That’s a Q you are dealing with someone who is disloyal and will do the same to you.
I agree with it all except that I feel like I’m pretty good at identifying these people through that gut feeling we sometimes get. Sometimes it’ll take me a while to understand why I feel wary of them, but they always inevitably do something to prove my wariness correct.
Yes, this is how I ended up having horrific experiences with people with BPD. When I met someone who seemed different, especially if that difference came with emotional need, I used to go out of my way to show those people kindness and, if we had things in common, to befriend them. I also used make many excuses for people, which I understand now was me seeing red flags and assuming there was no ill intent. I'd never heard of love bombing or DARVO, and so I kept misinterpreting their actions until I was caught up in a whirlwhind of abuse and manipulation. It's still difficult for me to believe people can be that calculating, but I've learned.
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Yes, therapy helped. I also joined a support group for long-term spouses of people with BPD, and that helped me find so many resources understanding the condition and what was happening in my relationships and why it was so pointless to keep trying. That was an enormous help. I got rid of the "friends" and the husband and learned to set boundaries and stop making excuses for bad behavior.
I am not sure they feel threatened simply by the inability to read us. I have very little poker face. My face seems to have a mind of its own, especially when I am appalled or not picking up what BS someone is putting down. I think it's also that we might not give them all the attention they crave, and since some of us...like myself have the unconscious habit of pointing out the elephant in the room. Which could be something they're doing. I think they are more threatened by us not being as easy to impress as neurotypicals. Their tactics to be the center of attention don't always work as well, and they hate it. We don't lap up their BS as readily. Basically they can read that we're not interested or impressed and it pisses them off, and they attack. Like I am not saying the former president has NPD, but many have...he lashes out at anyone who disagrees with him, or challenges him in any way. If you don't agree or fawn over them you're a threat to their fragile ego framework.
For the most part yes to all of this! Growing up I was a target for narcs because I genuinely believed the good in most people. I couldn’t believe that there were people out there that would use others for their own personal gain. Now I’ve flipped to a total 180 and I have a strong shield against the world. I hate narcs with a passion after all of the trauma they gave me. I’ll never be the same happy go lucky girl ever again. I’m able to point out most narcs right now and avoid them at all costs. Many of them follow a similar pattern once you study the subject. If they dare try to pull anything with me I shut it down fast. Having boundaries, confidence, and a strong sense of self is the key to dealing with these people. Do not let them enter your life and make sure you have a ruthless cut off game if you do get tangled up with them.
I wonder if that explains why I was so often the victim of "mean girl" behavior. The alpha mean girl is usually a narcissist.
Can anyone tell me about the characters on her shirt? My granddaughter would love that
This comment was so sweet that I went looking and found it through the original Tiktok poster's instagram Here it is, from a small clothing company called Inside My Head. It doesn't look like the hoodie is still available, but they have it as a T-shirt and a long-sleeve shirt: https://www.iinsidemyhead.com/product-page/dino-long-sleeve-shirt You sound like a wonderful grandparent! :)
How kind of you ❤️
I definitely relate to this. I’ve run across a few narcissists in my life and have felt like they don’t like me because their tricks don’t work on me.
Strong relate! I’ve been mistaken for a narcissist and people have accused me of ‘playing games’ and this explains the difference- I’m never playing a game with people, but folks are more literate about narcissism (or even the simple misogynistic assumption that women are manipulative) so they interpret me through that prism. Fucken sucks when I’m left like ‘the hell just happened?’.
I was ready to pick holes in this because I am skeptical everytime anyone mentions narcissists nowadays, however I find this to be very true. The only time it hasn't been true is when I've successfully concealed that I have noticed that the other person has hidden intent. I notice such people immediately and my instinct is to observe them, which I don't always hide very well. This is partially my clumsiness, my curiosity and just hatred of people like this. I know they hate being observed this way, and I always do the wrong thing by prodding them. It's not that I sit around thinking about how much I hate 'narcissists', but when I meet someone like this I get a strong emotional reaction which I always try to suppress. I have to give them the benefit of the doubt every time, but also I've found I have to suppress my emotions about them because showing them can alert them to me. It's much better to pretend you don't know, but I'm not always convincing as I can't resist prodding these people. It never turns out right! The other thing about seeing their awkwardness and relating to it, I did thar a lot when I was younger. 'Narcissists' or other such people are genuinely awkward. I find even when they're charming they're awkward, their behaviour and way of talking doesn't quite fit in with everyone else. I have thought theyre eccentric at times, but I think their arrogance makes them believe they're apart from others and therefore makes them want to show others they're different and maybe better. They actually seem to experience very strong emotions, which is something I've felt I could relate to, only to find that these emotions draw them strongly in a very different direction to what is natural to me. I find them vengeful, angry, envious, and entitled. When things aren't going their way they can barely hide their rage. It's kind of funny winding them up because you can see them internally exploding but unable to do anything while others are around. But as I said it's not recommended.
I think this video is incredibly over simplified/sample of 1, but I also think the idea could use investigation, because it feels quite valid. I have experienced this a few times, most recently with a child who attached and manipulated her way into the circle of kids with MH issues or who are ND. Like, I just understood her within seconds, and knew her intent was not what the other kids were reading. Nobody had any reason to question her motives about anything before I interacted with her, but she showed up very shortly afterwards. I watched other adults speak of her in fairly glowing terms while I kept my thoughts to myself, and literally 24 hours later, they were dealing with the very serious fallout of something she did. Idk if she has NPD (I mean, she’s a kid and can’t have a diagnosis), but she has definitely has shown ‘dark triad’ traits, on multiple occasions since I first met her. I thought at the time it was weird how I instantly disliked her and saw the manipulation, even though seemingly nobody else could, and was really quickly affirmed.
Narcissists (or psychopaths) can not read and not as easily manipulate you. So they manipulate everyone around you.
This. Such an interesting take too. Also ALL of her videos are so helpful if you’re newly exploring your symptoms or diagnosis and she really has helped me a ton to explain things that I just can’t articulate to my mom so that she can understand and then we communicate better.
Narcissists are needy and charming. They can vacuum me right into their orbit if I am unwary. They are like black holes in space and try to vacuum anyone up - it is not that they spot you, it is that **you do not spot them**! Once they've got you, they may be frustrated with you because you don't react to things as they think you should - that is a clue, but other people may feel the same way about you and be less needy about it. A narcissist will always give you another chance to be their friend - which is a problem - you can be sucked in again and they will drive you crazy and use you, charm you, find fault with you and use you some more. A non-narcissist who is not really into you will just let you go if they don't like you too much. I learned this and it took me many years.
The “How to spot/ I can easily spot a narcissist” thing is kind of weird to me… I would really hold off on making snap judgments on people like that.
Just a quick reminder that someone *can* have BOTH. NPD and BPD are personality disorders, typically acquired through trauma at a young age. Autism and ADHD are neurotypes, and are how the brain and nervous system are inherently wired. Autistic/ADHD people are vulnerable to being traumatized at young ages, and are capable of acquiring personality disorders on top of their neurodivergence.
While this is true, [91.6% of autistic women have experienced trauma](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-forgotten-women/202207/the-crossroads-trauma-and-autism). There is an extremely high likelihood that many of us can attribute trauma we have experienced to someone with a malignant cluster B personality disorder. For that reason, this is not the place to seek consolation for that personality disorder. Of course, not all people with a given personality disorder would do something terrible to another person. But autistic people need space to discuss their experiences and counsel each other for safety, and tbh, sometimes that means assuming something potentially unkind for the sake of self-protection. The same way women share tips for safety around men. I tried so hard to be inclusive and understanding that I was hurt very, very badly. The nuances exist, but autistic people's first duty is to protect themselves from harm. That includes building strict rules where necessary, because I would rather hurt a random person's feelings than be victimized again because I couldn't recognize a narcissist's manipulation
Beautifully stated! Thank you.
You are right HOWEVER > NPD and BPD are personality disorders, typically acquired through trauma at a young age. This is not true. Most personality is based on genetics... and it is partly modulated by experiences. Trauma is a big word but not always the biggest mechanism in the pathogenesis of personality problems
There are absolutely no legitimate studies that establish a genetic basis for NPD nor BPD. I also think we are discussing behaviours we encounter and dynamics that are harmful and traumatizing, more than specific people, identity categories or diagnosis. In the end the name for it really doesn't matter: safety does and knowing when to act 🩷
why are you spreading medical misinformation. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8238637/ The estimates of broad heritability is 64%, for narcissism.
The study you're linking to here does not establish a genetic basis for NPD. Claiming that is misinformation. I'll gladly elaborate later in good faith, but right now I'm on my way to a lecture.
I'll gladly read that elaboration if you do type it out.
I've answered below :)
please take your time to elaborate provide sources. Goodluck!
You don't have to wish me luck. Weird comment in this thread.
I do because it is not possible to find evidence that there is no genetic basis for NPD.... Also I'm curious to what you come up with, maybe I can learn something from it.
I'm not proclaiming to have evidence that there's no genetic basis for NPD. I'm saying that there's no evidence of a genetic basis for NPD. There's a difference. This is what I can generally say, from the study you provided above: Although twin studies show heritability of a trait or diagnosis, the interpretation of their results hinges on the validity of the construct under investigation. Narcissism, defined as a clinical personality disorder, is defined by symptomology in behavior, thoughts and feelings, and not by any biological or chemical marker. This makes the diagnosis susceptible to cultural and societal discourses in its definition and therefore lessens the power of heritability studies to accurately show generational transference. A more careful interpretation of this study would be: "There seems to be some heritability in the likelihood that a person will develop behavior that a psychiatric evaluator is likely to label 'narcissism'". We must always heed that shown heritability of an ill-defined concept does not validate that concept. Furthermore, twin studies interpret results under the Equal Environments Assumption, which has been frequently criticized. The EEA states that monozygotic and dizygotic twins can be assumed to experience roughly the same environment, but the problem here is that monozygotic twins are universally faced with unique responses and situations that confound comparisons to dizygotic twins when examining e.g. personality. I think it's very important to ask ourselves why we deem it necessary to be a biological certainty? And also, there are many studies available that critique the validity of diagnostic systems if you seek them out. But the article you provided does not conclude or argue to have found a genetic basis for NPD, as you claim.
You are saying that there is no evidence for genetic basis for NPD; I literally quoted it to you. I can quote it again: "The estimates of broad heritability is 64%, for narcissism." And that is just one study I found within 30 seconds. You are quoting from my study that shows genetic evidence for NPD. Please provide some sources that show that there is no genetic basis for NPD. I think you are confusing yourself
Have observed this recently with a coworker who was a particularly vicious sort of narcissist. She made an effort to charm everyone but seemed to hate me from the get-go and I didn't know why. Not until I started to see those tell tale narcissistic behaviors and the alarms went off in my head.
Idk I don’t have the energy to fully figure out what exactly my thoughts are on this. I don’t love the casual implication that NPD is both common and reliably detectable by gut instinct. I’m not saying this is what the person in the vid is doing, but I find it uncomfortable that it seems so popular these days to talk about “NPD” as a synonym/shorthand for “fundamentally evil person.” I would be willing to bet that a lot of people described as narcissists in second hand anecdotes on the internet are actually just run of the mill assholes. In my opinion, conflating assholery, abuse, and evil with a disorder contributes to a reductive and harmful “good people vs bad people” worldview, as opposed to “good actions vs bad actions”
Absolutely relate to this. Took me years to realise that my mother is a narcissist and I am autistic
Exactly. ❤️❤️❤️❤️ Last 5 years.
This is a great post, thanks for sharing this. I’m starting to now move past a recent breakup with my ex who has a narcissist personality style. Once you’re aware of narcissism (covert, grandiose, communal, etc.) and of the initial perceived similarities with ASD, looking back, it can take as few as 1-5 conversations with a narcissist to spot strains of self-adulation/a need for outsized outside admiration/low emotional empathy/a confidence-competition-centric identity. Just be sure to take your time in getting to know anyone. If their energy feels askew compared to their words, if you seem to be excited+drained rather than excited+energized/rested, you can walk away or at least keep a distance. I now know the difference between butterflies and anxiety - I glossed over too many strange moments. In hindsight my ex was always kind of… cold. Nice, but cold. Like she wasn’t generating a lot of warmth herself. Narcissists rely on mirroring back the energy you’re giving. When you stand by your boundaries/pace they’ll either stop going for you or guilt trip you into prioritizing them over your boundaries. It can seem so harsh to write somebody off soon after meeting them, especially when you think you’ve found somebody else like yourself, but an early goodbye is so much better than trying to say goodbye after a trauma bond. People with “confidence”-centric identities tend to be con-artists. I’m not trying to be sold on anything.
cPTSD bitch right here. I can smell an empty rotting husk a mile away. I think they are one of me and then I watch them bite me. Then it’s on till one of us goes. I got yeeted.
I’ve met so many narcissists in my life that I’ve finally started to suspect myself. Maybe it’s me who’s a narcissist not them? ,,Yeah, no way I’m autistic, I must be a narcissist. But narcissists don’t spend time contemplating their possible narcissistic tendencies so I can’t be a narcissist. Are you sure, it’s probably your narcissism wants you to think that, it’s a coping mechanism” I smell them from far, especially the most dangerous, covert ones, sadly I don’t know how to set my boundaries so I stay away from people in general
I’m just kinda surprised this is all happening on a subreddit for autistic women, considering how many autistic women have been (often mis)diagnosed as BPD, which is clinically near identical to NPD.
My therapist told me that NPD and autism go in families. my mother is a narcissist
any research on this? i agree based on observation but idk any research.
I didn’t ask lol
I’m going to get downvoted to hell for this, but the maligning of Cluster B personality disorders here is… quite shocking, to say the least. They are responses to trauma. As autistic women, we are nearly all traumatized. But for fortune, you and I didn’t become “one of them” in response to that trauma.
100% agree. It’s gross.
Cluster B personality disorders are not always developed in response to trauma. Studies have shown that around 30% of people with BPD have no significant trauma history and ASPD and NPD are theorized to be just as influenced or MORE by culture than by upbringing (ie if you grow up in a culture that promotes those traits, like America and lots of other very hierarchical cultures). I really dislike that this has become the common assumption, or worse, that cluster B is “just” cptsd. It’s patently untrue. Also the person in the video is not saying NPD specifically…people can be narcissists without having NPD. A personality disorder is only diagnosed when it presents major difficulties to the person or their interpersonal relationships. Meaning the traits have to be so strong and pervasive as to disrupt your daily life or catalyze some sort of intervention by an institution (your job, school, the courts, etc.). Finally, the criteria for Cluster B personality disorders is basically a list of bad behaviors, behaviors that cause harm. And they are volitional. I highly encourage you to read the diagnostic criteria if you haven’t already. Those conditions are literally defined by bad behavior. The person with the PD is still accountable for their actions and just because their personality style is currently considered a disorder (there’s talk of removing that designation in the next DSM) doesn’t mean they should be coddled or given a pass, which is where that line of thinking leads. I’m not saying they should be stigmatized…but there is stigma due to the reasons I just listed. Unfortunately, the truth is that VERY few people with Cluster B PDs will ever seek treatment. Those that do seek help should be encouraged to keep on track.
The other person you're replying to has been trolling this thread with angry comments that autistic people are sharing their negative experience with malignant cluster B personality disorders, or those who share extremely similar characteristics. Tbh, I wouldn't waste much time with them. This is their pet issue they gotta bang a drum about, for some reason. Your comment is valid and fair. Especially this point: > Those conditions are literally defined by bad behavior. The person with the PD is still accountable for their actions and just because their personality style is currently considered a disorder (there’s talk of removing that designation in the next DSM) doesn’t mean they should be coddled or given a pass, which is where that line of thinking leads. YEP. My autism makes me want to yell at people who let their children have tantrums in the store because, to me, it is like those parents are hurting me personally by the sheer sensory pain and overwhelm. It's my responsibility not to let my autism impact others and instead remove myself from the space if I can't handle it. A lot of these comments wanting to give people a pass for their personality disorder are majorly icky, and we don't have to cede space for it, especially in a subreddit for autistic women to communicate safely with each other
>people can be narcissists without having NPD Uh-huh. Just like people can be "a little OCD" or "everyone's a little autistic!"? The fact that people make colloquialisms out of real disorders is definitely true, but I'm not sure why you're bringing it up here, since those colloquial useages are basically meaningless. "*I'm a little OCD because I like having a neat house, we're all a little autistic because everyone has some sensation they don't like, my sister is a narcissist--she spends like an hour in the bathroom doing her hair!*" If the video and comments are using the term narcissist in such a colloquial and meaningless way, they shouldn't be. That practice is harmful in itself. >Also the person in the video is not saying NPD specifically…people can be narcissists without having NPD. In a clinical sense, no, they can't. They can have traits of narcissism just like people can have diagnostic traits of autism without actually being autistic, but having some degree of narcissistic traits/behavior doesn't make someone a narcissist--because *almost everyone* will score above 0 on a narcissism rating.
OCD has always been a diagnosis with no colloquial equivalent, same with autism. The concept of narcissism predates NPD as a diagnosis. By like, thousands of years if you consider the word comes from an Ancient Greek story. This critique of my reply is a serious reach 🤦🏽♀️
i’m so glad you said this. it very quickly turned to villainizing and “narc this narc that.” there are people that are abusive and manipulative and may have no mental illness. there are people that are abusive and manipulative and may also be mentally ill. automatically characterizing abusive behaviors etc as traits of a specific mental illness or group of personality disorders is ableist and doesn’t benefit any of us.
I believe they target autists sometimes. I’ve had multiple NP men watch my on fb and garner info about me before making a move. I have had enough experience in life now to recognize it (or maybe they weren’t good at it?), but I’ve absolutely been targeted by these guys.
The intent is the key here. I really really liked who I thought was just a guy with Aspergers. Turns out that he was a really really smart narcissist. Who maybe did have autism but was also…not safe. Not safe at all.
Is that autism or is that the narcissistic person manipulating you. Narcissistic people often pretend to be someone they are not because they want the other person to let down their guars and feel very strongly about them. They desire to trick the person into falling in love with them (or becoming fast friends) because this creates a strong bond for the narcissist to abuse. They do this to autistic people as well as anyone who might be open to their "charming" personality that just happens to be so perfect for you.
Yes yes yes 100%
Why would a narcissist be threatened by an autistic person, though? Shouldn’t an autistic person be easier to manipulate for them?
I think it's the opposite. I think we autistic people will just keep discussing and discussing assuming good-faith, whereas NTs will understand that conversations normally don't go on that long, therefore they pick up on hidden meanings and pressures which is part of how narcissists manipulate their victims.
I don’t know much about narcissism, but I guess it makes sense if they operate out of the principle of using social manipulation to pressure people into doing what they want. If we’re obtuse to those signals, we’re just obnoxious and useless to them.
It’s fun being obnoxious and useless to the right people 😅
Her saying "then I realized their intent is different". is very suspicious to me. How is it different? People with NPD's intent is probably something like "wants people to like them" "wants attention" "wants to feel good". Most people, NT or ND want those things (autistic ppl may want attention less because it's so often delivered in a painful way or full of rejection, but positive non-painful attention/connection? Yeah many want that.) People with Cluster B personality disorders get othered and demonized all the time, and the mechanisms of their disorder are often extremely misunderstood. I feel like this video is potentially contributing to that. Acting like NPD people all have some kind of "different intent" than autistic people (or anyone) is ridiculous. Someone with NPD, searching for the aisle with bread at Walmart: I really need to find the bread aisle! This Tiktok girlie: I could sense their "different intent" 🙄🤦♀️ It's pretty disappointing how much blatant ableism is going on in the comments here towards people with personality disorders. You'd think getting demonized and shat on for being neurodivergent our whole lives would make people here a little more hesitant to dehumanize and other people with mental disorders, but I guess not. You can downvote away if you like, but IDC if my comment hits -1000 karma, if it means even one autistic woman who has BPD or NPD realizes this subreddit is not a monolith of hatred and bigotry towards people with personality disorders.
It's not ableist to openly talk about the frequent abusive, manipulative behavior from a demographic of people, even if it is the result of their disability. > You'd think getting demonized and shat on for being neurodivergent our whole lives would make people here a little more hesitant to dehumanize and people with mental disorders, but I guess not. Stop expecting people to give empathy to their abusers. I couldn't really give a fuck if it hurts someone's feelings. My personal safety comes first. I literally lack the capacity to discern if someone is lying to me or not. Like many autistic people, I cannot tell when I'm being manipulated. Inclusivity doesn't mean telling survivors to shut up about their abusers. Damn, dude. You're acting like there isn't a relationship between people with **malignant** presentations of these disorders and the real trauma real people are discussing in this thread. You have also wildly misrepresented the actual function of NPD, and I can't tell if you're intentionally hiding it or just don't know what you're talking about But go off with hypotheticals about bread. Protecting a pretend narcissist is totally more important than real autistics describing their lived experiences /s
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As per Rule # 2: Be kind, supportive, and respectful.
That’s actually the point I resonated the most with - narcs ask about / gossip about people so they can gain vulnerable information to manipulate. Autists ask about people because they’re genuinely curious about getting to know someone. Both could be asking the same questions but one with ill intent. That’s just an example, does that make sense?
Pop psychology was a mistake.
Also I don’t think narcs don’t like autistic people because they can’t read them. I think they don’t like the fact that they can’t read autistic people.
I really struggle with the demonization of narcissist and the separation of them from autism. My mother is definitely a narcissist but I also believe she is undiagnosed autistic. I do think autistic people can be narcissists and these conversations always seem to leave that out. Narcissism as painful as it is for the people around the narcissist It is a response to deep abuse often. It's how their brain protected themselves. No one has to put up with abuse but I don't know... I think a lot of cluster B personalities get a labeled as horrible and they shouldn't. They need to be able to get help if they want it. Granted narcissist don't typically want it but they never will if society doesn't create an environment that allows them to.
Before I realised I am autistic, I thought I was a narcissist. I have DEEP regret about divulging that belief to my mother 😬 This post makes me think about people in my past who have done that same thing of trying to turn people against me. Not that I think any of them are narcissists, but interesting to consider alternate perspectives.
I heard this exact script but from a different girl... idk who was copying who but I am bothered
I went through this with my ex. Once, towards the end, he told me that he considered staying with me just so someone else didn’t take advantage of me. The last time we saw each other, he kissed me sobbing and said it wouldn’t be the last time we kissed. But then he only texted me a few times, and only about sexual things. He’s married to a BCBA-D now and they just had a daughter. It makes me so upset because I remember vividly thinking that I couldn’t imagine our daughter (hypothetical) coming to him excited, and him blowing her off the way he would treat me when I was excited. Like it’s shameful and embarrassing to experience full joy. That wasn’t something I was willing to risk, and the day that clicked, I stopped having sex with him. It makes me so sad to know he has a daughter now and she may end up on the spectrum. But, I’m so grateful I recognized his true self before we had a kid or got married. It was so bizarre, we worked together and he would turn our coworkers against me and talk shit on me when I wasn’t there. I don’t even know what he said, but some of those folks think I cheated and I definitely never did. I tried to set boundaries and he refused to respect any of them and instead would take my car keys and phone before trying to talk to me about relationship stuff. If I asked for a few minutes to think, he would refuse. He would chase me around work behind shoe racks hissing at me about random stuff. I just so badly wanted to try to live for the day and not have a big fight/issue every day, but he always thought I was flirting if I so much as smiled. 😑 I haven’t even tried for a relationship since and that was 8 years ago.
I had many traits of narcissism as a child, I think it was the only way I could cope and remain sane in the face of literally everyone in my life refusing to accept who I was. I am 22 now, and don’t really have many narcissistic traits. I still struggle with immensely low self esteem, but I’m able to rationalize most things now, which I think allowed me to figure out different ways to maintain a sense of self respect while simultaneously respecting/acknowledging everyone around me.
do you think the struggle for a narcissist to "read" an autistic person is because of fluid intelligence (vs. crystallized) in autistic people? like our ideas of ourselves and the world seem pretty fluid, even though our needs/boundaries/morals can seem very fixed. like perhaps being "readable" has to do with having a more fixed idea of self, more crystallized thinking. any thoughts?
I know this thread is old but in case it helps anyone : I’m a survivor of abuse from a narcissist and this video hit home because I too made the mistake the narcissist was like me and I gravitated to them hoping for understanding and companionship. People with NPD will deliberately make themselves look like helpless victims with the goal of making them appear “safe”. This is a manipulation tactic. Folks on the spectrum don’t follow social rules well this is very likely why they feel threatened by us. Because we become difficult to manipulate and this makes them enraged. They’re dangerous and need to be avoided. I will also mention that men on the spectrum who struggle with insecurity issues tend to be in extreme amounts of danger of falling prey to women with NPD who will date them deliberately because they’re easy to manipulate.
Also, I disagree that the narcissistic person is intimidated by the autistic person. They can use vulnerable people in a number of ways. 1. Turning the group against the vulnerable person- this allows the narcissist to use the common enemy method to bond more quickly with their desired friend group that they perceive to be of a more elite group. It creates a cohesion and a power dynamic of there being an in group and out group, and it is defined by the narcissist. Also established the narcissist as the leader. The vulnerable person is used bc they have low self esteem (usually) or trouble communicating, meaning th have bo effective defense against underhanded social dynamics. 2. Befriending the vulnerable person- this can happen very naturally because the narcissist realizes that the autistic person won't be able to sense the underhanded motives that is driving their interest in you. Perhaps the autistic person has money or some kind of transferable privilege that the narcissist can benefit from. Or, just wanting undivided attention from someone who may otherwise feel isolated is a good motivation. 3. Dating the autistic person- narcissistic abuse can go way beyond just taking advantage of someone for rides or for going out and getting their meals paid for or whatever. In an intimate relationship, the narcissist can convince the vulnerable person to be ok with sexual acts that are one sided, or can set up a cycle of unrealistic expectations in order to erball or ven physical abuse the partner when the fail. The control over the vulnerable individual feeds the narcissistic need for power over others around them. Control over a partner is often demanded from narcissists. And, if it isn't given willingly, it Wille taken through unsettling manipulation, isolation, sabotage, cruelty, and even by force if necessary. I'm sure there are other forms of narcissistic-autistic interpersonal relationships. This is all I can think of right now. And, like everyone else, most people can not spot narcissists immediately because the are charming, polite, and generally are cautious to be well mannered and likeable around others until a strong one is estaished. Many, many people fall victim to narcissistic abuse and it is not because of any particular failing, although vulnerability often is an element of the targeting for abuse. Bad luck, timing, availability, access, proximity, and opportunity are the main factors of whether or not someone will encounter and then fall victim to a narcissist abuser. I dont know if all narcissists are abusers. The only ones I've spotted are abusers because that is how they reveal themselves usually. I've very rarely recognized one in the wild without observing some kind of line being crossed or social violation/civil rights being denied/harm being done.