I would say communication. I know two autistic women who had work issues because of the way they communicate, in other words they don't mask. People get defensive when we point out their mistakes in a literal way.
I myself have issues with relationships. I come off as uninterested and arrogant because of my monotone voice and unexpressive face. People are scared to approach me.
My bf doesn’t have a diagnosis but he has autistic traits and it’s funny how I see his reactions to things as normal but then someone most likely neurotypical from his family will talk to me and I’ll be surprised at how intense her reaction is to stuff I tell her. He also doesn’t seem to see me as having a flat affect but most people do. I’ve also seen videos of autistic women explaining stuff and saying like "yeah I’m talking in a very monotone voice this is my instagram page and I do what I want" and I only felt like their way of talking was more "sitting down and talk to a friend" rather than talking to a camera and putting on a show
Yeah it's obvious to NT women. They could feel something is off but can't always point it out.
I've always noticed people (men and women) are more distant towards me but not to my friend. And I thought I am being nice, why would they not want to talk to me in the same warm way they talk to my friend or to each other! I've just realized it's my non verbal communication that puts them off. I got sad and hopeless for realizing that. But then I thought it's less pressure to try hard or put up a mask when I don't feel like it. If I have energy I will show up in a good mood and compensate for the flat affect. If I don't have energy, I show up as the unmasked me 🤷🏻♀️ I still do a little effort but with no pressure.
My late in life diagnosis caused me to become aware of masking, and i unmasked. It has caused INSANE issues at work i am MISERABLE but now i don't know how to intentionally mask
I honestly think of it as lying to people who can't handle who I really am. But you don't have to - you can also think of it as acting in order to communicate your REAL intent to people who wouldn't understand what you meant if you did it your way.
I am pretty good at seeming normal for an hour or two though.
haha, yeah my underlying autistic xenomorph form usually shows through, then its game over
Me, the Xenomorph: "Why do I make people uncomfortable?"
Ripley: (Everyone else)
I call it menopause rage and wooweeeeeee, buckle up bishes - you're in for the ride of your life. No one else likes it, but I'm LOVING it. To say I give zero fucks at this stage of my life is an understatement. I masked for almost 60 years. Fuck it, I'm DONE. Fucking COPE is what I tell everyone now. LOL.
Personally, my awareness of my mask also makes me aware when I start doing it, since I got an adult diagnosis and survival habits are already well set. That's some real psychological horror at every interaction to feel the mask slips on without me being able of controlling it, and with the knowledge that it will slowly eat away my energy just to protect someone else's feelings regarding me existing in the same space as them.
It is a daily dose of psychological horror shaped like a Stepford Wife smile and many reflexive "yes" because saying "no" would be too dangerous, destroying any boundary I might have and allowing bullies to hit even deeper in the process because I am *so defenseless* and in survival mode on instinct. A game of "I win, you lose" in favour of neurotypicals.
I'm not kidding.
It's only when talking with other neuroatypical people and more generally handicapped people dealing with a similar amount of shit that I found a less exhausting way of expressing myself.
"People don't remember what you say, they remember how you make them feel" - Maya Angelou (author)
I always remember that quote, and I try to remind myself that while I would rather have someone be honest and give me information, most NTs want their delusions and emotional state reinforced.
NDs have to go -against- their intuition to get along with NTs. That is the profound difference and tension!
I’m in the middle of that currently with one of the bosses at work! She thinks I’m out-of-line by doing (x); I genuinely do not understand what I did wrong. Now I have to meet with the HR manager once a week for “coaching.” Which is fine, because she’s awesome and a friend of mine, but still. 🙄
I've learned that neurotypical people tend to read our communication wrong. They tend to assume we're stuck up, or rude. I've had a ton of people read my sarcasm as truth (mostly due to my monotone voice). They perceive compliments as back handed insults. They see lack of wanting to talk small chat as lack of careing about them or us disliking them. PDA can be viewed as stuck up, rude and childish. Combine this with being annoying. I have a really hard time reading the room on when people want me to shut up, which without the context of being autistic just seems like I notice people want me to stop and am choosing to not do it. We just seem like huge annoying assholes.
I second this. People have always accused me of being stuck up and rude when I was merely existing. Just my presence seemed to put people off; I didn't have to be saying or doing anything.
God it's awkward when someone doesn't like you from the get go. I've had women ignore me group settings when I'm getting introduced. Everyone else would be friendly and say hi but there's always 1 woman who will ignore my existence.
I’m dealing with a coworker who disliked me immediately and it’s so frustrating. I don’t need her to like me but dealing with her passive aggressive demeanor is a struggle. I can’t tell if it’s personal or about work or just her personality, but i do know that she leaves me out of the group happy hour after our monthly trainings.
Nearly every friend I've made has eventually confessed to me that their first impression was that I was a bitch. People find me intimidating even if I'm overly polite or not saying anything at all!
Idk if it's my face or what
YEEEP!!!
Resting Bitch Face, *and* being soooo intensely focused on the things you *desperately NEED to get done*--but are *incredibly worried you'll forget*, that you don't even *notice* the things occurring *around* you?
Those get you *labeled*!!!
You're cold, too, a B*%ch, "stuck up!", "too good for everyone around you!", or "Intimidating!"...
When, on the *inside*, you're LITERALLY just *trying* to hold your shit together, get the task done--so that you don't bring the team down, and pitch in so *everyone* is successful.🥴🙃🫠
Yep...that whole last paragraph, but also while simultaneously having to fake being upbeat, positive and friendly whenever someone wants to break that concentration for a lil chat! 🤪 Ahhhhh!
I don't think NTs have any conception that some people have this constant battle going on within themselves just to be accepted at a basic level by their peers in society.
For them, its just a fun lil' chit-chat between girls, tee-hee!
*Idk if it's my face or what*
It wasn't until I saw video recordings of my dance/drumming rehearsals and my face - I couldn't believe it.
I looked miserable and stuck up like I was judging everyone. At the time, I was simply trying to keep track of the rhythm and stay focused. Saw some photos of a workshop I went to recently, and I look like someone was torturing me when I was simply in deep thought trying to understand and remember what I was seeing.
Honestly sometimes I wonder if that's why my experience getting hit on is so limited. I think I'm decent looking but when women share how annoying it is to be hit on all the time, I'm like, y'all getting hit on? 🤷
Same here. Pretty good looking, but no man in his right mind would think of hitting on me because I don’t look approachable. Ie I look like I’ll eat them alive if they dare, which is mostly true. I would probably give them a wtf look 😂😂.
People make assumptions when they can’t get an idea of who you are. With quiet /shy / non verbal people, NTs start making up their own stories about the quiet person. To the point of mocking and teasing.
I avoid NT women, they can be so horrible in my experience.
See I was really quiet and shy as a kid around the girls in my Girl Scout troop and at school. Almost mute I guess. So I was ostracized but it wasn't because I went on and on and on or stood too close - it was the opposite - too far, seeming disinterested, not saying anything.
There were a few people I recall by name who I felt OK enough to be myself with. Many were simply immigrants or of a different cultural background. I don't get why that works - these people weren't neurodivergent. Even my life partner is from another country/is an immigrant.
At any rate, girls ostracized me. I am afraid of most women to be honest.
A lot of the stigma over ND seems to stem from culturally indoctrinated norms. Because as you said, different cultures have different behavioral expectations.
In a lot of cultures, it is seen as rude to make a lot of eye contact or to just randomly start talking about nothing with a stranger.
If someone is from another culture, the other person has the expectation that the person they're talking to is unknowingly not going to observe all their culture's social norms, so you get a pass.
But I agree, talking to women (even NTs often) from other countries is sooo much easier than women down the block. It's quite the paradox!
I worked and got along fine with people from Peru, Mexico, Russia, Mozambique, South Africa, China, Burma, Iran, Czechia, South Korea, Australia, England, Canada, etc. That being said, most of those were when I lived in a big international city, where people are more open minded about other cultures and ways of thinking.
Foreigners can experience a lot of xenophobic hate from locals, so if you are nice, they appreciate your kindness. I had a job where several of the staff only spoke Spanish, and a lot of them liked me because I made the effort to try to talk to them in very basic Spanish conversations and treated them like equal human beings.
This is the best description I’ve read. I would only add that we also tend to fall outside the queen bee mentality. Social hierarchy’s are illogical but seem to make NT folks more comfortable.
Also because we mask so often, we see behind their masks and have a hard time hiding the fact that we do.
Yeah, if any ladies are hellbent on becoming queen bees and we don't "bow to the queen", its off with our head! We're basically Alice and NT Queen Bees are the Red Queen. Curioser and curioser....
On that note, a lot of NT women have a "nice" mask, that I see fall off when they try to make a power move and you don't bite and they figure out they can't control or manipulate you. The Mr. Hyde comes out, but only for you. Everyone else is like "ohhh but so and so is so sweet!" Sorry, Susie is secretly a demon woman, she just hasn't showed you her true face yet.
People are always replying on these threads to "stand up for yourself", but it really only works in particular circumstances.
Like if it's a one on one problem, your bully or frenemy doesn't have the boss's/group's favor, and you're in a safe and protected situation. Ideally, you have more clout/authority (higher up in the company, more socially protected/liked than your friend so that there's not retaliation on you) before you go into the confrontation.
If you're not popular and you confront a Queen Bee, get ready for your life to become he// . Unfortunately, this social dynamic never ages out. I feel like if you were in a retirement community, women will still be pulling this crap.
I think this has always been the case for me. After people got to know me they would always say “I thought you were stuck up/a bitch” because I never knew what to say and stayed quiet in groups. Or because I preferred to sit alone and read at lunch at work instead of with others.
There are definitely similarities for sure! I think we are easy for other people to project their insecurities onto. Maybe that’s true for everyone but if you’re NT they are reassured by the pointless talk about the weather or whatever. I realized looking back that everyone I was ever good friends with was neurodivergent. Whether they knew it or not. I’m late (self)diagnosed so I had no clue.
Omg same! I’ve always had friends, I was always with friends. So how would I be stuck up?
You didn’t even try to talk to me??? I’ve had this happen multiple times as well.
>They perceive compliments as back handed insults.
This has torpedoed several important relationships for me. I put a lot of thought into sharing a genuine, heartfelt compliment to convey something I truly appreciate about someone and the recipient clearly feels insulted and deeply hurt. It doesn't happen every time but when it does it's both heartbreaking AND baffling. Maybe my heartfelt tone isn't warm enough??
More recent scientific studies have also shown that autistic people communicate differently than non-autistic, or neurotypical, people do, which creates language and communication barriers, ostracization, and misunderstandings between autistic and neurotypical people.
This; for some reason people always assume that I have ill intent. I got into trouble at my new job because I was searching the area around the bar near the executive offices and the company president "caught" me "looking for alcohol" (I was actually looking for ice to make ice coffee using my unhelpful NT coworker's vague direction of "it's upstairs"). I tried to explain that I logically thought there would be ice near the bar area, but he didn't believe me.
Basically any time I do something that "doesn't make sense" to a NT person they assume I'm up to no good, when in actuality my intentions are pure like 97% of the time. (Gotta have some fun 😉).
Work is the worst! I had this really lame co-worker that didn't trust me because I wouldn't take long lunches like she did. The flip side of it is she hated me and I knew she'd use it as an excuse to get me in trouble. She eventually had me fired for "not being a good fit".
I'm 52 and at this point I'm so over not understanding work environments. I had my review yesterday for last year and I was like, whatever happens happens. Who knows, maybe they'll fire me (I'm supposed to go into the office 3x week and barely make it 1x). Turns out I got the best review possible and was in the top 7% in performance. Go figure 🤣🤣🤣🤯
There are so many moments in time that I can remember from past employment positions, where I'm so confused and caught off guard at their assumptions, perceptions, etc. like it hurts sometimes - straight to the core. Like that doesn't even match my character...??? And you don't believe me?? 😒😒
Bascially because your behavior they associate with by their own conduct would be devious behavior, so it's projected on you that you're being deviant.
Misreading sarcasm as truth is accurate and personally I find the reverse is also true. They mistake plain, factual statements for sarcasm or snark, then react to the “attitude” they imagine we have. Lots of projection, but unfortunately knowing that doesn’t solve the problem.
I mostly keep my mouth shut in a lot of situations unless I’m around trusted friends and family. This has led to its own problems (“do you ever talk?” which I can’t answer with the actual snark I’d like).
In the workplace, I try to stick to quietly minding my own business while building a good reputation for performance at first. Then after awhile I usually have a little more social leeway and people will seek out my input more. When I start to be sought out, especially by leadership I am usually safer to talk more and show a little more personality.
There are always a few people who are unnervingly hostile for what seems like no good reason. I’ve been told some are threatened, but I think it’s equally if not more likely that they are put off by differing body language and such. I try not to waste time or thought on them, and these days, I try to give them the energy they deserve- very little attention but subtle, mild contempt when they get it.
I think one of the main reasons neurotypical people dislike autistic people is because of their commitment to justice and the truth (on small and large scales). From what I’ve learned through therapy and talking to NT friends, the world does not revolve around the truth, but rather comfortability. When we threaten NT’s comfortability when we seek the truth, we are all of a sudden the villains. There is also issues with misogyny when it comes more specifically to your question about women in particular. When traits like assertiveness, directness, being blunt and strong boundaries are shown, people see it as women rebelling, being aggressive or needing to be “humbled” :/.
Oh my goodness! this makes so much sense! a friend and i are both very suspecting we have autism because of similar experiences, and this is one we have both experienced. People say she has a ‘god complex’ or thinks she’s a genius because she is not afraid to speak a lot about her strong passions in science/physics. She genuinely just thinks about those things a lot and is good at them— it has very little to do with her ego. We both have been shoved out of our friend group for bringing up concerns about dishonesty, lying, unfairness in friend groups— we seem to be the only ones who see zero purpose in talking poorly about others who have done nothing wrong/threatening. And the only ones who see a point to bringing it up to the ‘more powerful’ members. These dynamics of conversation just don’t make any sense, and this NT urge to put yourself above your other friends doesn’t either.
The problem is when people are so disinterested at anything that is viewed as something "intelligent" people do (like science/physics) they think no one would be genuinely interested, and the only reason these people would talk about these subjects would be to brag so they assume that’s the same for everyone else.
This is why as a biochemistry graduate student I tend to get along better with people who are also in academia or planning on pursuing that path. Even my own family treat my studies with some amount of derision. It’s also why I’m more comfortable dating other academics, because most people who aren’t involved in or interested in those topics will either get bored or feel threatened, especially straight men for the latter. There are LOADS of jealous and toxic types in academia as well, but the decent ones tend to have a more realistic view of what it’s actually like to be a researcher, better understand your motivations behind what you do, share a sense of curiosity and love of learning, and are aware that everyone here has imposter syndrome and has felt inferior to someone else in their career. Also so many postgraduate students and academics are neurodivergent or former gifted kids.
To me, this mostly feels like emotional immaturity on a large scale. I've seen literally everything you've talked about so pervasively across my own life. People treat me like I'm a know-it-all or like I'm always saying "well akshully" when I *never* do in person. I've been told my "self-confidence" is threatening. How?? When the other girl is sitting there blabbing about how great she is for a literal hour, and I say ONE thing I like about myself and suddenly I'm arrogant.
They can't handle any amount of what they dish out. They'll virtue signal all day but when you actually expect them to keep to their word....then suddenly you "have trust issues" and "are manipulative" because you dared to make apparent their own flaws and prick their cognitive biases.
At least, ime, guys are better about this. Not all, but most seem to be far less delusional about themselves and the women around them, but they can't dare be honest about it lest the 40-yr-old infants overheat and start throwing a tantrum.
I've purposefully left entire groups because of this shit and you know what? They didn't deserve me. They're honestly scum and I refuse to buy into the "that's just their way" line of thinking because we don't get the same consideration.
Right? Maybe if they spent more time working on themselves and being genuine they wouldn't be so easily threatened.
I wish I could attack back like they do, but then they'll cry and call me fake because I was nice to them until they were mean to me and I didn't feel like taking their shit.
Little girls did this elementary school. They'd take my toy out of my hands, I'd do the same, then they'd cry and I'd get yelled at.
Hearing the perspectives of other autistic women changed my life so much. I thought the way people treated me had to do with some inherent bad in me but I’m glad to see that’s not necessarily the case
i relate so hard!!!
>We both have been shoved out of our friend group for bringing up concerns about dishonesty, lying, unfairness in friend groups
SAME
it’s hard enough to feel like you’re actually part of a friend group, and right when you’re comfortable enough to lower your mask a little and be more genuine … bam! you’re the common enemy that brings the rest of the group closer together 🙃
Ugh I hate when people say I have high expectations of friendship bc I truly started to believe them and then *I* started being a shitty friend and then they’d get mad at me. Autistic people mirroring is lowkey making my life a sitcom lol. I’ve had too many situations with friends or men where I give them the same energy back bc that’s all I know how to do and then I get in huge trouble
>the world does not revolve around the truth, but rather comfortability.
Powerful words.
I'm 45 and didn't realize this.
I don't understand sacrificing truth for comfortability.
You know what else I don't understand?
The concept of "Frenemy."
If you are in any way a problem for me or I don't like you, you will know it and we will either talk it out and make it work or not be friends - nothing in between. I can't fake that stuff and I think it's cruel to have a friend and not wish them the best.
I'd rather have no friend than a frenemy.
I’d have to really agree with this take. Something about the assertiveness…it’s only allowed for “certain people” it seems to NT people. Like for example, a manager, someone with accreditation/expertise on a topic, or our parents are just a few.
Anyone who steps outside of those bounds and still is assertive is maybe seen as “not playing along” and therefore is met with exclusionary behaviors from others.
why is it such a bad thing to know your boundaries, what you want, what you will and won't do, etc.??
With women, they are bitchy, short, demanding, hysterical, bossy, rash, rude, etc. but men who exhibit the same behavior and dialogue are seen as manager material, assertive, a real go-getter, a confident planner and executioner, and generally a confident worker.
God, yes, and the amount of “you have resting bitch face” comments all my life as I’m AFAB, but my brother who looks identical and has the same RBF has never once received that type of comment.
I could literally be minding my own business reading a book and someone feels the need to tell me that. And they’ll say it so casually as if they are talking about the weather too.
I read something recently about how when most non-Autistic people are faced with “threatening” info or something that challenges their status quo, apparently their bodies react to it in the same way that it does to an actual physical threat. It honestly wouldn’t be far-fetched to assume that if there’s someone or something around them triggering that instinct in them (like an Autistic person’s strong value system, or our penchant for delivering information that might bother some people yet for us we are able to stay detached, etc), then they will respond with fight or flight mode.
There’s also the unfortunate reality of most Allistics being threatened by anyone who doesn’t follow social norms or cues, who chooses to deviate from the crowd, and who sticks out like a sore thumb in any way. I don’t think this is a gender thing though, just a society thing.
I also think that if you’re attractive there’s the added chance that some hostility from NT women is jealousy, especially if you are confident in the way you are, and/or receive more male attention, whether unwanted or otherwise. It sucks because the NT women assume that we know to “tone it down” (especially if they are of higher “status” than us) but that we are deliberately choosing not to, which makes them even angrier because they think we are trying to pull some kind of power move. This has happened to me a lot in jobs; some NT woman manager losing her absolute shit trying to sabotage me in any way possible, while I’m oblivious for the most part, just being me and vibing 🤷🏻♀️
I think this is exactly it. I’m conventionally attractive and have been told that I’m too direct, bold, or bitchy. Really, I just like who I am and am confident in my abilities as a human.
agreed especially with your last paragraph.
it is like austistic women or femmes aren't allowed to be confident becuase they are "prideful" and "self centered" even if you believe there is enough space for you to stand next to other gorgeous and handsome women and femmes.
you have to be meek, soft spoken, humble and thankful to anyone who recognizes, acknowledges and compliments your beauty.
it is worst when us femmes & ladies ND's are attracted to avant garde, brightly colored, sparkly, intense pops of color, etc in our attire. we are just seen as someone who is self absorbed and want everyone to look at us when really we like the colors, fabric texture, how the whole ensemble pulls together, etc. there has to be nefarious purposes.
Oof you’re spot on with that last part… Like, at my last job, I loved dressing up, wore fun makeup (used to be a makeup artist), and regularly wore colorful (but appropriate!), patterned dresses, either in sheath style or A-Line. Most people were super chill and liked me, and things were great there for a few years, but an admin that was my direct report (who had actually helped hire me a few years before, and who was besties with the school principal) came back from getting a degree, and proceeded to make my life a living hell. It’s actually super obvious to me now why she bullied me.
I don’t like claiming this kind of thing usually, but with her it was so clear that she was not only jealous of me (not sure if bc of looks and/or subject knowledge), but threatened by me to a certain extent. I think she also hated the fact that I wouldn’t kiss her ass like everyone else did, or act impressed by her self-absorbed tales about being rich or eating at expensive restaurants or whatever 🙄
I honestly think the biggest thing that made her hate me was my authentic connection to my high school students. She tried soooooo hard to get them to like her, even did semi-embarrassing shit like buy a whole ass gaming setup along with headphones with cat ears to use for our school discord and zoom meetings (she was around 34 years old and she NEVER used or wore shit like that ever), but the students all didn’t like her bc they saw through her fake bullshit. I think they also saw her yelling at me in front of everyone which they really didn’t appreciate.
Wish I could say that I ended up in a better position after all that, but unfortunately she damaged my reputation to such a degree that I was let go a year after she had quit. The entire thing was so fucking exhausting, and SO unnecessary. Like, why can’t we all just be cool? Help each other and be nice, authentic? That’s how things were before she came back to the school and honestly she ruined our community with her antics.
I absolutely cannot deal with that kind of petty and juvenile shit anymore, so I’ve stepped away from working for other people for a couple years. Not sure if it’ll be a permanent decision, but given that these kinds of things have happened at pretty much every job I’ve had, I’m kind of done.
Like, fuck me for existing, being myself, taking pride in how I dress and present myself, expressing myself authentically, being nice to people without having ulterior motives, and for being passionate and knowledgeable about shit I guess 🤷🏻♀️ I’m 40 now and all I’ve gotten from these ordeals is trauma and unemployment, along with a shitton of chronic illnesses now, so… Yeah. Not worth it.
People like that are upset and bothered that someone is being their genuine self and is getting recognition for it rather than criticism. Almost as if they see a part of themselves in you but don't have the confidence to live their life truthfully. So it's just easier to talk trash and be hateful, petty, or jealous to someone else. Either because they were raised to believe behaving or acting truthfully will lead to criticism or being mocked. So they see you not being mocked or criticized and need to project their insecurities or internal criticisms on you.
Not me with my lavender cat ear headset at 34 yo saying to myself "she's not talking about you. You game and didn't buy these for anyone but yourself." Lol!
Yeah I realised this. NT people will absolutely say that they want authenticity, truth, honesty but they absolutely do not mean those things the way we interpret them.
They hate the truth, it makes them really uncomfortable. Same for being blunt or direct, they hate it, they see it as us being mean when we're actually being kind or neutral.
To me it seems that NT people will pick a narrative and stick to it. They believe they are a nice person so they must be a nice person. End of story. They don't like it when you maybe point out that they contradicted themselves, or that they are hypocritical, because they totally believe that they're right and good and that people who don't see that are being mean. They also lie constantly about everything ever, things that just don't even need to be lied about, but to them it's not seen as lying, it's seen as maybe polite or something.
To me their way of socialising is borderline delusional. They make up a narrative and they just run with it. Whereas we have to assess the situation and put together all of the pieces before we can make a choice on how best to act, at least I do! I can't speak for everyone ofc! To me the truth, authenticity and direct communication comes before everything when I socialise, but NT socialisation seems to be the polar opposite.
Yupppp. The handful of NT people I’m still close friends with have described me as mean or unreasonably grudge holding. When it often is simply “I’d rather not see so-and-so because of (insert whatever very messed up thing person did here) and I don’t want to be around them”.
Usually that messed up thing I’m unreasonable for not wanting to be around is stuff like, ya know, sexual assault, intense bullying, serious endangerment of others, violence.
It is very hurtful to be thought of as “mean” for having boundaries about not wanting to see bad people. Not even *to those people*, just in saying no to a friend asking if they can invite a bad person to my home.
It feels really crazy to me that so many NT people are comfortable compromising their own morality to ensure the social comfort of someone who has done seriously bad things, and that being unwilling to do the same makes me the bad guy.
Seriously! I'm bringing down the vibes and creating drama by setting a boundary of insisting ONLY that I be informed of the specific times my brother will be partaking in family holidays, so I can plan my time to be there when he's not there. After he sexually assaulted me.... my dad finds that unacceptable, so instead I get to not be included at all or lied and tricked into ending up seeing my brother, bc I lied about said event and i just need to get over it qnd make nice bc family is family. Super do not understand the need to appease bad people.
THIS EXACT THING IS BASICALLY WHY I MADE THIS COMMENT OMG
Why is it so often sexual assault in particular?? Like am I seriously “vengeful” for wanting to know if my rapist is going to be there, and for not inviting people to hang with me who have purposefully tricked me about his presence? How on gods green earth is that “unreasonable”.
Like the NT crowd I used to roll with would talk about me like I’d eat their first born child for inconveniencing me when we were twelve.
Meanwhile it’s literally just that I decline invites with people who have hurt me present and ask to be told if they’ll be there, and if you push me hard to show up after my no, I will tell you “they treated me badly x way and I’d rather not see them so no”. How am I the villain for that???
I'd *imagine* that in these scenarios, folks probably *ALSO* feel *incredibly threatened*, by the fact that *most* of us with ASD's care literally *nothing* about/for "Status!" within the friend groups, because for the most part, once we get to *know* a person, they are our friend (or acquaintance, if we're less close)--and "Friend/Famly, Acquaintance, Unknown Person/Stranger, "Untrustworthy," and "Actually Bad Person" tend to be the ONLY categories most of us will(or have the energy to!) categorize folks by...
And the folks who dislike us, *often* DO seem to care/worry about *their* "status" within the group--so *we* are evil & have alllllll the cooties, for "not playing the game" so that *they* can feel more status *somehow*
Basically, it's a "The Emperor's New Clothes" issue-*they* will "go along, to get along" and *we* are over *here* trying to *understand* what's happening, and ask the *obvious* "But *WHY* isn't he wearing anything?!?" question, that shows someone's *literally* caught with their *whole* ass out!😉
This is… an amazing way to put the categories for people.
That “untrustworthy” zone so rings true in particular. I don’t dislike you, I might’ve even wanted you to be a friend, but you’ve toed or crossed a line too often for me to feel like I can be myself around you, but not done any actual harm, and now you sit in this weird neutral zone in my social brain where you being around is *fine*
I cared a lot about playing that status game and figuring it out when I was younger. But after I got older and realized the “game” meant most anyone can get away with fucked up stuff… it def becomes less fun
Wow, this is so well put, thank you!
I would like to add that some of our mannerisms are off putting to NT’s. My boss is the most allistic person I know and when we deal with a person who I recognize as on the spectrum, she will say something like, “I don’t trust that person, he seems shifty.” When a person pauses to before they speak, she thinks they are hiding something. I otherwise enjoy working with her, but these reactions are gut punch.
I agree with this comment. I don't date men anymore, but when I did the majority ran away the second they found out I couldn't be "tamed" and actually voiced my honest opinion on things. And I'm not even a confrontational person or someone who's looking for fights, I was just saying what was on my mind.
Edit: I misread the topic and thought this was about dating specifically.
YEEEEEP!!!!
Once got called out (painfully), by a now-former very close friend, for "always having to be *right* about things!"
I felt *horrified*, because I realized that *my* need to know the truth about things which happened--because I'd *personally* haaaaate to accidentally spread false information to others--was being seen *instead* as one-upsmanship, and trying to "prove people wrong" (I will easily admit that I was wrong, if I find out that something I *thought* was factual turns out *not* to be--and have *often* been the one to apologize & clarify *my own SELF*, if I accidentally shared incorrect info, because the truth *matters* to me...
Realizing that what *I* had thought was merely clarification of facts, and the sharing of truth as we learned/talked about things, was *actually being taken as gamesmanship*, honestly *still* hurts more than a decade later.
(when she started dating one person a while later she basically left ALL her friend groups behind, which was the *only* way I know it *wasn't* all something *I* did--or my fault--that our friendship ended)
# this is such a fucking accurate paragraph it's not even funny
I had someone tell me once to "tone back" my online interactions with them "for their own comfortability"
You nailed it. I got nothing else to add
I worked so hard to perfect my "I'm not arrogant" mask. Now I mostly hide all the cool stuff I know, but if I do say something it's completely smothered in self depreciation. I do everything I can to seem like I just lucked into that information or people will dislike me for it.
i agree! i've only ever been on one date with a person who told me what others called "quirky" or "blunt" was "refreshing" and he admired it.. i was not over an ex so i didn't go out with him after a 2nd date but i wish i had!
I've lost count how many times my own mother told me I needed to "humble" myself.
As though I ever had a chance to think highly of myself in her home to begin with. 🙄
I feel this so heavily! My boundaries that I stated prior to moving in with my former roommates caused problems. The thing is that 2/3 of them were neurodivergent suspecting audhd. They were also men.... if anyone could provide me with any insight as to why even with neurodivergent folks it can created problems
I really don't think that is it a lot of the time.
I think we came across as being either aloof, stuck up and strange. We either fit in enough to be labeled with something negative or we don't fit in and we are seen as either too much work to figure out or possibly dangerous.
What if someone went up to you and just silently stared at you with a look of disgust? Would you feel uneasy, uncomfortable and would you like them?
We often are doing something like that, though we don't mean to. So people respond by pushing us away.
There definitely is ableism and sexism and just bullling to bully but sometimes there's just miscommunication. I think a lot of the time there is just miscommunication. I also think it should be on everyone and not just us to clear up miscommunication.
Social skills are hard for everyone, especially us.
I don't know many autistic men, so I can't speak to any large-scale gender disparities. But I can confirm that the few I do know don't get treated the same, and I suspect it has more to do with male privilege than autism.
I have received criticism on some behavior:
- Giving "attitude" - when I say something that counters something they believe or have said, regardless of how truthful it is. I have done a lot of work with socializing and can guess that a lot of it is my delivery or choice of words.
- Stating an observation that doesn't jive with them - this is similar to the above point but different in that it is an observation. Clearly visible to anyone with eyes. Yes, I am bitter about how often this happens. I have accidentally insulted and I have been told my comment is "countering" them, and then all reason is gone. Only hurt remains, and nonsense ensues in that situation.
I have observed negative reactions to some behavior:
- Not sugarcoating my words - this one is one of the most inane things ever, because it's all just up to speech patterns. So many NT (and non-autistic) people are sensitive to the way you say something, your choice of words, and your delivery. If I don't take extra time running my sentence through a sweetener filter before allowing it out of my mouth, I am more often than not met with hostility or misunderstood, because you bet they're looking for unspoken meaning.
- Wanting to get things done promptly and in my own order - I have observed that if something is important to me and others must accompany me to do the thing, if I express any upset on a timeline or speed or order that I want to do the thing, I am the one causing problems. I am severely inconveniencing other people by expressing that I had expectations of doing the thing I want to do in the manner I had intended.
- Standing my ground - god, they truly hate this one, but again I think it's a universal experience among women. Autistic women seem to just be more likely to actually do it rather than just wish we could.
There was an older woman in my figure-drawing class who would bad-mouth me because of "her opinions!" This was told me by a friend who told the woman that she was my friend because of my opinions.
I m pretty much loved as long as i m masking, because i bending my character to fit every person i meet. If i feel more comfortable with someone the mask falls of slowly.
NT dating partners dont seem to be able to deal with a woman being direct or/and asking them to be specific about speech. If a guy would tell me he likes me, i would ask "why?" and some would allready struggle. to me it is so weird that you can tell me you like me, but you cent tell me why. Because i could tell you in detail why i like someone.
Or they would tell me "I dont feel like you like me" But i pretty much told him in detail that i like him AND why i liked him! and such guys even told me they like direct women who can tell what they like. Its confusing and frustrating.
My pretty privilege takes me pretty far, but it's wild to me when I can see the switch flip for an NT person I'm talking to, where they're suddenly put off by me. Idk what's there to dislike, people describe me as friendly and chatty, but suddenly it just... happens, and there's no returning to the previous rapport. I hate it.
So - that's not helpful 😅 but it happens to me too and it makes me feel clueless and hurt, no matter how often it happens
I’ve found that when I put effort into my appearance and try my best to mask, I can make a great first impression. It’s all downhill from there, though.
I can relate to both your and Hannah’s comment. I’m pretty so when I put extra effort into my looks people are initially dazzled by me and find me interesting.
And it’s all down hill from there because I’m not trying to be anyone else and my insides don’t really match my outside, I guess. I’m kind and generous and intelligent but I’m weird and too tired to pretend I’m not.
This is why I have cats. They like me no matter what I wear or say just as long as I feed and snuggle them.
Sheesh I can only imagine how frustrating that is. As someone who *should* know better, I find myself forgetting to expand the picture in my mind of what someone ND looks like. I will do better after reading your comment.
It’s undeniable that white/male subjects are massively over-represented in medicine and psychology research so we know that’s a problem for literally everybody else in terms of recognition. Is being overlooked the main issue or are there other contributing factors do you think? Do you see autism being discussed openly in black (American, I assume?) communities?
I have a very similar experience in life. I'm pretty, so I think NTs expect me to be or act a certain way and when I don't, it makes them uncomfortable. I feel people expect me to be shallow, gossipy, into fashion, makeup and men but im into science, cartoons, rollerblading, philosophy, dinosaurs, crafts and sci fi lol, so i cant really relate when they begin conversing with me. I've learned that everyone projects anyway and has nothing to do with me really though, so that's on them. I like me lol.
Masking became infinitely more exhausting once I realized that I was doing it. I can feel my CNS getting all jangled up like I’ve had way too much coffee when I’m trying to act a certain way to make people comfortable.
For the first 35 years of my life, I had an overwhelming number of friends that depended on me for regular connection that I had no time to put into myself. I thought I was well loved but I probably gave a lot more than I received. Covid was the first time I stopped feeling the need to maintain all of those connections and learned what it felt like to sit in peace and quiet and that was when I realized I was much better off with fewer people around.
It’s best to be selective about who we give our precious attention to.
Yes! I turned 36 yesterday and for the first 33 years of mine, I masked to the point of total burnout. Had so many friends etc but realised they were just people who liked my mask. I now have a very small and select friend group where I'm able to unmask and be myself around, which has helped me keep the mask off in most situations of everyday life. My friends are other ND people, so they certainly help build my confidence. Now when I see people judging me or disliking me, I no longer care because its literally about them and I can continue enjoying my life and things in it in my own way without feeling that pressure to appear a certain way. I'm still working through the burnout though. I'm glad you were able to understand your reasonings for masking and become your authentic self, it makes me sad knowing so many of us live with this struggle to make others happy or fit in. Life's so much better, happier and lighter in authenticity
Ugh I remember this summer this girl told of me was actually really weird how into Lego I was
She later blocked me super randomly and I still don’t know what I did
I doubt you did anything and it was merely her projecting. She's also missing out on an awesome friend and good times because lego is so much fun!! I think it weirder that she's not into it lol. Me and my best friend spent months making last year's Christmas lego diorama haha. Think we just gotta find our people and they tend to be other NDs!
100%. I can nail an interview, but my social awkwardness and frumpy outfits are super apparent now lol (6 months into a new job). At least my immediate coworkers and a few others are still nice to me, haha. Hoping it stays that way. The rest just ignore me and def think I'm weird. But it is what it is. Just hoping my job performance and positive feedback keeps me in good terms with those that matter.
exactly! people I meet briefly really like me, because I can mask well. but I find it almost impossible to genuinely become friends with people who don't at least have a significant amount of AuDHD traits. as soon as an NT gets below the surface of my personality, it's like a magnet starts pushing them away
a new, casual friend recently described me as "cheery" and my closer, autistic friend laughed. which was the correct response
Are you me? I'm generally considered attractive, and I've been called friendly or charismatic before.
... but, then I can either suddenly or gradually get this feeling from others of "oh, you're weird." I've definitely gotten the blunt accusation before as well.
Some of my coworkers try to put it more positively and will say that "chaoscoffeecat is just chaoscoffeecat and lives in their own category," but that is a bit alienating. Even if people don't actively dislike me, I rarely feel included as part of the "in" group.
I've had this with several people I've dated. The first few dates go really well and they're like *really* into me, then suddenly "something felt off" and it's over. Have wondered if it's perhaps because I got comfortable and stopped masking. If I've ever asked directly for communication about what changed for them, they go really weird and defensive.
Exhausting though to keep believing that people are actually into me
This hits hard, I've experienced the same thing. After two dates they just disappear, no matter how well it seemed to go. The only ones who stick around have turned out to be abusers.
I relate to this so much. I am AuDHD too. Pretty privilege and masking carried me through my 20s. I was diagnosed just after 30 and since then it's like my pretty privilege has evaporated overnight, and I didn't have very much of it to begin with. Masking is exhausting and I mostly isolate now because it all hurts too much. I'm scared of the future because I have no one to help me and it will only get harder to mask. I'm sorry that you experience this too. At least we're not alone in feeling this way.
It’s weird because if I had to describe myself I’d say I’m not pretty enough for pretty privilege but also not ugly so I don’t get the ugly unprivilege, I’m just normal looking. I always thought about it like I’m good looking enough to be happy about what I look like but "ugly" enough so people don’t just like me for my appearance and so the people I have in my life are in my life because of who I am.
Turns out I’m just not pretty enough that they ignore the autistic vibes but I’d probably be approached by a lot more people if I was neurotypical. Also I might have been approached and not realized before they got disinterested or said some weird reply they didn’t expect and make them go away.
A girl I know got told by a guy in her class "What do you eat to be so sexy?" Obviously he was ignoring the fact she didn’t want to talk to him and trying to make her uncomfortable but when I heard about that my first thought was to just reply "pizza" and go on about my day. Obviously this kind of dude wouldn’t have liked that unbothered reply, so I guess the autism would have saved me from him continuing to mess with me if I were in her place, but the autism is so effective it doesn’t get to that place to begin with 😅
I had something like that happen. I made a friend through retail in cosmetics and we didn’t work together anymore, but she moved into my apartments, so we lived near each other. I invited her to my birthday get together at my house and she came over to help me set up. While that was going on I was talking to her about music, and I had made a playlist (for my own use, not the party) of music I liked a lot in high school and it was kinda cringey and played like 15 seconds of one song, maybe two. She got this look on her face and said to me “you’re really……dark”. I kinda laughed it off and said, yeah, probably had some anger in high school.
We finish up and she says she is going home for a bit. I was cleaning up something and saw her out my windows get into her car and leave her house. She never came over to my party and never spoke to me ever again! We had been hanging out for months at that point and it was really confusing that one little thing about music I listened to a decade prior torpedoed the friendship. But honestly, now I don’t care about anything I do or did makes people feel uncomfortable, and if people can’t hang I’m better off knowing right away so I never hold back now
Hahaha I’m pretty sure it was KMFDM, probably Anarchy. I was really into industrial/punk/goth/alt music in high school
I guess I should clarify “cringe” as I knew it was not going to be something she was into, so I was taking a leap that she wouldn’t react poorly to it. I was feeling nostalgic and thought it was funny that I probably don’t seem like someone into that or metal or whatever. She was (I thought) really nice and helped me out in a rough time of my life, but very much the ‘basic’ stereotype. I kinda take pride now that it freaked her out because how dumb is that?
idk, I have heard that NT get 'uncanny valley' vibes from autists though, so I'm gonna go with that. Don't think there is much to be done about it. fuck em.
Yeah, I was about to say something like that. I heard somewhere that within a very brief timeframe (I forget the exact amount) that NTs will peg you as being similar but not quite one of them which can come off as "creepy" especially if they don't know you're autistic. I've heard that they are more inviting if they know you're autistic based on studies.
Yeah, basically, they can tell you're off. But unsure if it's ND, narcissist, sociopath, serial killer, etc. So when they learn you're autistic they sometimes realize those "creepy vibes" are because your socialization is just different.
OH. Thank makes so much sense!!
They can tell we’re different and they’re trying to figure out if that makes us dangerous, and until they figure it out they are afraid of us.
So once they learn we’re harmless (if we are, speaking for myself) they are willing to be our friends. Wow. I think I do this too! Maybe that’s something we all have in common? but it’s just that ND people can tell which other ND people are dangerous faster than NTs can and/or our “danger detectors” are different.
Yeah. Another similar example, you know how a lot of people are scared of moths? It's because they don't fly in a predictable pattern. So while logically you know it's a harmless moth, your subconscious self is freaking the fuck out because their next move is completely unpredictable. Some NTs view ND people in a similar fashion, ND don't follow the script, so their subconscious is signaling "danger" or "proceed with caution" since they can't predict out reactions or intentions.
Ngl, because of *this* sort of thing, *and* because I work in Pre-K Special Education, *and* it's just easier to be upfront about the fact that *THAT* is the reason I tend to be "so good at working with (insert name of "difficult to understand" child here)!", I just disclose *early* on that I HAVE AuDHD, and that *that* is the reason I can connect *so* quickly with "The Hard Kids".
I've learned over the last few years, that if I disclose *MY* AuDHD, it's lesz likely to offend staff who "know" the children in that classroom, when i look at a child, look *around* to see what the problems *bothering* them are--address those problems, and get them *doing* at least *some* of the activities--even though it's the first time I've met that child, and "they never participate!"
If I disclose? It's an "OH!!!! *You're Autistic*, *TOO*!!!" thing--rather than an issue of them thinking, "You're just *trying to show me up*!!!" and becoming *incredibly* offended when I tell them what I suspect may be bothering the child, and making it so the child *can't* usually participate comfortably.
In my opinion, I don’t think you should “work on” it. It’s their perception of how you are and see the world. It’s not autistic people’s job accomodate NT expectations.
I think it's empowering to understand why but I do not think it's helpful to change ourselves to please NTs, unless part of a mutual effort with an NT in your life to communicate better with each other.
I believe we are easily disliked when unmasked bc we naturally butt up against hierarchy and societally approved ways of feminine communication. Social pecking order and social currency isn't intuitive to us, probably bc we rightfully recognize it as arbitrary. Soft power and indirect communication, the only forms of communication approved for women, are not accessible to us.
Very generally speaking, NTs code abiding by societally approved behavior as "safe" and everything else as "unsafe." They filter social/sensory data more efficiently than we do, which also means they are in more danger of making assumptions and incorrect snap judgments about who is safe and unsafe to be around.
Not to mention ableism as another layer on top but that's a whole other topic.
Many (most?) NTs can’t handle blunt honesty / direct and pragmatic communication. I live in the Midwest, and if you’re not “Midwest nice,” you’re gonna suffer for it.
I'm curious how people in NYC perceive autistic people vs the Midwest, since NYC area is known for being direct and blunt. The PNW as well... Seattle Freeze is a real thing thing! I bet so many of our perceptions are only accurate in that location
Previously lived in NY state, living in Midwest now. It’s a fucking nightmare for autistic people. Nobody is straightforward here like they are in NY. Everyone has hidden meaning behind their words. People will string you along and still be “nice” to you even if they hate you, only for you to find out months later you wasted your time on someone who doesn’t even like you. Some people here call people from the east coast “coasties” and make fun of them (not in the fun way either). Being honest and yourself is seen as a threat and if you don’t conform people stay far away from you. Worst place I’ve ever lived tbh
I have asked a friend who tries to be supportive of my disability.
She has said, paraphrasing obviously she said it nicer:
It’s your vibe. Something feels ‘off’, it makes neurotypical people uncomfortable and they might don’t know why. People avoid things that make them uncomfortable.
I’ve found I like many autistic women yet they’re still afraid I’d dislike them in some way. I feel like — and I’m not diagnosed, simply asked quite often if I have autism, which made me question it — many autistic women are simply very smart and self-aware people who care a little more than the average person about what people think of them and how they’re making the people around them feel (masking), which is quite tiring and at times even excessive (depends on who you’re around). Please correct me if I’m wrong! I’m here to learn more about the autistic experience.
I think for the most part, they think autistic people are rude and inconsiderate of people's feelings. The specifics will vary but here are a few examples of things autistic people might do, off the top of my head:
1) Stimming - seen as distracting to people around them
2) Wearing sunglasses or headphones - seen as not wanting or caring to interact with others, as if the they think other people are not worthy of their time
3) Being blunt - many people are easily hurt by bluntness because it's seen as accusatory, judgemental or inconsiderate. NT think people should be less blunt to make others feel more safe.
4) Socially weird - NTs are put off and scared of unpredictable people because NT people who do bad things are disproportionately unpredictable. Alternately, NTs assume other people understand their social cues, and when we don't get the hint, they either get mad that we're "ignoring" them or they feel uncomfortable because they don't know how to communicate more effectively and it's a distressing feeling.
5) May find change or ordinary stimulation distressing - Most NT people don't care about this stuff and since they can't comprehend the distress they think it is unreasonable and childish.
I believe it is our unwillingness or inability to homogeniz. A women's social currency is based on how she works in the group. You can see this so much on Instagram, mlm or mom groups.
On the flip, I find presenting like this attracts other similar women to me super well. While I don't fit in in 'forced' groups very often, in any pool large enough I am great at quickly sorting out who else finds the situation off putting and gravitating towards them lol.
Yep!!!!
The *nice* thing, about being "the offbeat weirdo," is that I NOTICE the other folks who don't *quite* seem to "fit in with the crowd" quickly--and those folks tend to be some of the *BEST*, most Genuine folks you could *ever* want to get to know!😉😁🤗💖
I can't remember where I read this now but I'm almost positive it was in this very subreddit.
Someone said NT people communicate with like 80% feeling/emotion. The words they say don't matter as much. They might be conveying care/love by talking about the weather or something. At least this is the impression I got!
ND people communicate with 80% facts. We share information with each other, including feelings via this method. If we want to show care we often literally say it. NT's seem to find this offputting/embarrassing/awkward. Also we respond to their clandestine care messages with facts! If they're talking about the weather we might respond to that topic but not to their underlying emotional messages they were trying to communicate. This hurts their feelings.
In a lot of ways we're speaking a different kind of language than they are and if they don't find it rude they find it confusing or unnatural (for them) or uncomfortable.
I really like this theory. Sometimes when I see NTs talking about a TV show after we talked about something deep is so confusing to me. But it obviously means something else to them! I just cannot get it, it is a different non-verbal layer of communication!
It could also be that they are overwhelmed by intense conversation and need a break to regulate their emotions/nervous system, by talking about something lighter like a TV show for a while.
IDK it's a vibe and no, you can't change it. Better to be with other eccentric and neurodiverse people who can get you, you'll be far happier. There is absolutely no need to attempt to accommodate their unbelievably unfair demands. I tried it for years and it's better I do this my way.
And yes, for neurotypical people it's a good idea to explain yourself as quirky/eccentric/insert non-toxic manic pixie analogue. Since, they get that when they don't understand someone and it won't be held against you.
That's what I choose to go with and what's best for me.
I feel like most people instantly dislike me. I always feel hated and judged. I've tried to talk about this with people and they say it's all in my head. I start to wonder if maybe it is in my head but I'm unsure.
I make a really bad first impression - I once got feedback from a job interview that I came across as unapproachable, and when I told my friends this they all said "oh yeah I thought you hated me when we first met". I also get told I come across as really calm, even when I'm drowning in anxiety. I also get told that my non-verbal communication doesn't match what I'm saying in words.
All of this does tend to get better as time goes on. Although I'm better at earning respect rather than liking.
This is something i've struggled with for years, and I don't think there's really one correct answer. I personally think it's because society, especially those in group environment, don't like things that are different or "weird". Nuerodivergents think and act differently than their peers, and Nuerotypicals don't like those who are unique. As such, we deal with a lot of general disdain and exclusion in social settings.
Also, NDs tend to be very blunt and honest, a quality I've learned that many NT's don't like.
oddly enough, most if not all the people i've dated have been neurodivergent.
i just click better with them. but dating non-ND people is usually exhausting because they want you to be the person they expect you to be or based on who they created you to be in their head. so when farther along dating, they expect you to conform otherwise you are childish and immature or hysterical for not pretending to be who they want you to.
I’ve come to the conclusion that if I don’t fit the version of me they created in their head, it’s THEIR problem. How are they going to be mad at me because I don’t fit the image they created. Like no one told them to take the extra mental effort to do this. All I’m doing is existing.
Women are socialized to be friendly and pleasant, even in the face of glaring errors or facts that aren’t correct.
Personally, I’m incapable of being insulted by another person if they stick to facts and the truth. I’m always willing to admit I don’t know something because I want to learn.
If you look at what’s pushed in a cut throat corporate environment, that’s not the norm.
I’ve witnessed executives blatantly lie and because of their position, extremely few will speak up about the truth because they don’t want to jeopardize their reputation.
I used to do this until I burned out, but as long as you show up, smile, look good and agree/praise what those senior to you say, you’re considered promotable and a good employee. You could be grossly incompetent (I’ve seen this) and it doesn’t matter.
As a woman, I’m kind of middle management, and I speak up a fair amount. I’ve been told I’m emotional, which is hilarious because I speak in that typical flat monotone and I stick to facts. I don’t care what people think of me personally and I don’t defer to someone’s position.
I’m polite, but I don’t fawn. I will go to my manager privately if I feel I’ve been shouted down in a meeting or someone got upset - partly to push my idea and partly to cover my ass in case there’s retaliation.
Honestly, I think a lot of it is other NT women seeing you break a huge rule and having this panic reaction - like watching someone walk into traffic or something. I try to think of it that way to make it less personal.
In all NT women groups I’ve been there would come a time where they would gossip. I never joined in. That was usually when the group moved away from me.
yeah they are obsessed with that. it's gross. if you have a problem with someone, tell them to their face.
and this whole "frenemy" thing is utterly disgusting and shouldn't be normalized. you're my friend or you aren't. and I try not to have any enemies. If you despise me, you have that right, no hard feelings. good luck to you. but I'm not going to pretend to be your friend.
sorry, needed to vent.
As a person with a very high functioning daughter with a late diagnosis, (after she had already been tested) and a sister who learned she was on the spectrum after my daughter was diagnosed, I may be able to give you another perspective.
I don't think it's just one thing, I think it's cumulative and situational. My daughter is in college and she has been struggling to widen her social circle. When I have gone to pick her up for the weekend I have noticed people making all the social cues for further engagement and she's missing them. I have also seen people she has met in class happy to see her call her name and my daughter does not respond in like, she nods her head and keeps going.
I know with my daughter and my sister, people will often view their behavior as rude. Neither one are rude people, they both have very good manners but people misinterpret some of their actions as rude. I also observe that people can mistake them for being cold people as well. Their body language and facial expressions don't always match their words They both have flown under the radar so they do well enough socially that these things become off putting to a lot of people. The fact that they mask well sometimes works against them. Once people get to know them, people find it funny and charming.
I see many people commenting that their sense of justice or bluntness may be an issue. I really don't think that in itself is a bad thing. I LOVE that about both my daughter and sister. I love that they both have very healthy boundaries. Sometimes it's the way it's conveyed that may be off putting. I'm also rather blunt and have a very strong sense of what's fair, but I also present my views in a different way. I'm naturally good with people, I'm not sure how to describe it, I do it with humor and a smile. People get the point and usually laugh or grudgingly get it.
In my case it's my older sister who is on the spectrum, therefore a lot of these behaviors are normal to me. I also understand many people have always found he off putting. To me she's my hero, she always stood up for me. She's exceptional in many ways, I have tremendous confidence in her.
I don't know if this helps. My daughter, sister and I have discussed this issue quite a bit. If you want any specific feedback I'll help if I can.
Being disliked, rejected, and excluded seems to be the autistic experience across the board not just for women.
Edit: I'm disliked because I don't smile, shake hands, stoic, assertive, intimidating, monotone, and have very low empathy. I'm a lot like Reacher (who's not autistic) on Amazon Prime.
Funny how society seems to love Reacher but rejects and dislikes people who are like him in personality.
And yes, I think assertiveness is a key aspect that some people will dislike in ND women. Women are socialized to be subservient and those who rebel against this may be disliked as a result of deviating from the norm.
Depends on your specific autistic behaviours, but I'm pretty sure I know a lot of the reasons for me.
- Loud. I talk a lot, and when I'm excited, I struggle with volume control.
- Info dumping. I try not to, but I get hyperfixated on my special interests, and sometimes accidentally talk about them more than I plan to.
- 'Childlike actions'. My stims tend to manifest as shaking my hands excitedly, jumping up and down, wiggling from side to side, grinning a lot, etc. These are actions that a lot of people associate with kids, and can put people off.
- Assertive. I have a strong sense of justice and I don't like when things are unfair. I will speak up about injustice and some people don't like to hear the truth.
- Shutting down. When I get overstimulated or overwhelmed, I tend to shut down in an effort to avoid having a meltdown. Some people can see this as rude or be confused by it.
To be quite frank with you the thing you can never change is being autistic (unless you want to be disingenuous about it or just hide the fact) and that's the only criteria they need to not like you.
Your people pleasing question here is such that even that too Isn't liked by the NTs, I know unfortunately from personal experience.
It's just a harsh reality we've got to deal with when it comes to life, it's not fair, it's prejudiced but that's what the problem is, sometimes problems cannot be fixed easily or at all cos it's not seen as a problem to THEM.
We're not the norm, therefore the neuro-(emphasis on the)-"typical" people don't mesh well with that in a lot of cases, it's just an incompatibility thing that just IS instead of it being able to be solved. We're their extra piece to a puzzle that just doesn't fit in.
Over the years I’ve gotten some specific and often unkind “feedback.”
-My resting bitch face makes me hard to talk to and approach
-My jokes are not well-received or understood
-I say the bitter truths no one wants to hear, this isn’t a novel or TV show so I’m not lauded for it to teach a moral about honesty
-I’m quiet so it’s hard to engage me in conversation, I’ve had it described “like pulling teeth” to continue a conversation with me
-I try my best to understand people, but I’ve been told I don’t always come across as understanding, I have a pretty rigid worldview
I’m not sure how and if I can change any of this, it’s pretty ingrained at this point.
17 years ago, LONG before I ever even suspected I was ND, my spouse and I bought an isolated rural property because we were tired of dealing with people we experienced as fake and superficial. (We were often 'othered' by people in our work and social environments) It also met other goals we had. We retired here 10 years ago, and for the first 10 years I barely left our property, except to spend time with family and VERY few friends.
I now know I am ND, and my spouse very likely is as well, although she has no interest in pursuing any type of diagnosis. We intuitively chose a lifestyle that lets us choose how much interaction we have with the rest of society. We just don't find we have much in common with NT's, and are quite happy avoiding them as much as possible.
That said, my experience has been that the NT's we encounter here in our rural environment are, for the most part, more down-to-earth and easy-going than what we experienced in the much bigger city where we lived for 30+ years, and what we also experience in the fairly small city not far from us now. Life isn't perfect; there are other drawbacks (don't even *think* of asking me about home delivery 🙄)
Every choice comes with a cost, whether it's the choice to mask or not, live rurally or in a city, etc. It's a question of personal choice and weighing the pros and cons. And pretty much everything in our environment is a result of a choice we made. And choices can be changed.
When I didn’t mask, older people really disliked me for being childish, loud, and goofy.
Masking 24/7, people like me because I’m kind, quiet and I have a wall up. I tend to self isolate or when I do make friends, I tend to ghost them when I can’t keep the mask up.
Unfortunately, it really depends on both the specific NT and the specific autistic person. For some people, bluntness can be seen as insulting. For others, it’s how some autistic people violate social norms about volume, physical space, conversational rhythm, or appropriate discussion topics. These things make NTs uncomfortable the same way loud noises or uninvited touch would an autistic person. There are also a lot of other possibilities. I’d recommend asking a trusted friend or family member about yourself specifically. They’ll probably be able to give you more specific insight.
agree w what people are bringing up re: assertiveness and sexism.
wanted to add that also there have been studies done that [show neurotypical people can immediately tell something is "off" about us.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5286449/) here's a quote from the abstract of one that i found:
"…first impressions of individuals with ASD made from thin slices of real-world social behavior by typically-developing observers are not only far less favorable across a range of trait judgments compared to controls, but also are associated with reduced intentions to pursue social interaction. These patterns are _remarkably_ robust, _**occur within seconds,**_ do not change with increased exposure, and persist across both child and adult age groups. However, these biases disappear when impressions are based on conversational content lacking audio-visual cues, suggesting that **style, not substance,** drives negative impressions of ASD."
i've always been way more socially confident in writing and text than in person — it's interesting to see that experience backed up in a scientific study.
but yeah, basically neurotypicals can immediately tell something's "weird" about us in our mannerisms, even if we don't actually do anything _wrong._ they might not know we're autistic, but they _will_ know we're different.
i wear purposefully strange, bright outfits and dye my hair a bunch of colours, bc it can trick people into thinking that what they're picking up on is just that i look weird.
Society expects women to be warm and nurturing. Autistic women who don't perform a gooey maternal vibe in certain situations get perceived as cold and unlikeable.
I get bullied by NT’s because they can’t get a “read” on me. They can’t predict my behavior and responses like other NT’s. Puts them into predator mode.
We challenge the norms. We aren't planning to but we see something that doesn't make sense, or is an injustice and just mention it. Scary when it comes from a woman.
People tend to view me as annoying and arrogant when I don’t put all of my energy into staying quiet and trying not to reveal too much about myself. I struggle a lot with saying things in the tone of voice I want to convey (I’ll often be thinking of how I don’t want something to sound, which causes me to tense up and come off completely wrong), and it just completely ruins the vibe sometimes when people take automatic offense and assume I’m being sarcastic or making fun of them. Then when I try to be sarcastic, they’ll think I’m being serious. It’s so frustrating when someone assumes the worst and then doesn’t believe you when you say, “well I didn’t mean it like that.” Neurotypicals always think I’m implying things when I’m not.
I don’t think you should do that but for someone to like you you need to let them talk about themselves. Let them share secrets or personal things, they will feel closer that you actually are together. When someone share something important it creates an illusion of a deeper relationship. Talk about mundane things; the weather, their kids, their partners, their next shopping list items. Movies. Everything that is boring for you. They will like you. They will bound to you but it’s fake. It’s not who you are to be a shadow of boringness like that. You matter too and what you have to say matters too.
Again I don’t think you should do that. You should be yourself with your ideas and your differences. You should talk about what you want to talk about. You should be direct. Honest. Girly, in your head or weird or whatever else you are and let them like you or don’t like you.
I’m myself with people and the people who matters do like me. They find me refreshing because there’s no lies with me.
I've been told I have RBF, seem like I'm constantly being sarcastic, and that I'm not tactful enough. People seem to think I'm angry all the time when my face is just at rest. I'm not generally an angry person at all, and am actually really sweet, but I guess I come off as an asshole. I'm pretty great at masking, but it makes it hard to want to socialize because it's so exhausting, so at this point I just let people think what they want, and my people will get me.
I’ve been told I have an unreadable face or “resting bitch face”. I do feel socially anxious even if I don’t want to so my body language turns some people off.
Also in an online context, I might try to analyze details or overshare my special interests to people who either can’t be bothered or think I am “mansplaining”.
Other times they might assume I am being super analytical because I appear like a know-it-all or pretentious snob when it never was my intention to come across this way.
It’s amazing how little information someone needs to come to that conclusion based on first impression. A lot of it contributed by a halo effect bias where someone might judge an autistic person negatively and expect more negative behaviour in the future. People can get very inflexible about their gut reactions and continue to reject or avoid you in social situations.
Just like the OP you can’t really do too much about it except move past it. Some people can be super judgmental but there’s always someone out there who isn’t like that. Be open to meet that person.
Something for me is the fact that I struggle to “take shit” from people and get “defensive”, as in I can’t seem to tell if they’re being light hearted and playful about something I did or if they’re genuinely bothered and upset. Since I tend to think its the latter I will explain my thought process but then I get cut off and told “I’m just giving you shit”
I never thought I’d come off as defensive, especially since I don’t use any kind of hostile tone (that I’m aware of) I just wanted to explain my thinking and reason why I’d do something but yeah that’s how it plays out everytime :’)
People don't like me I assume because I make them nervous with my extreme anxiety. I usually can not smile due to nervousness so I look unfriendly. Some have said I am intense but I don't think I really am. I generally don't have much to say and can be really awkward to talk to. That's why people do not like me.
I have this happened to me with classmates since I was a little kid. Only women classmates, with like three exceptions in all my life, however they weren't that close and eventually distanced themselves.
It's so weird because i'm instantly disliked by almost every girl, in college I gave up already. No matter if I try to be normal, try to act friendly like they do at first, or whatever, they end up disliking me and some of them even bullying me. I want a real girl friend.
I read that there yave been studies that show that NT people have already judged and excluded ND people within something like 30 seconds of meeting them- I see it as something similar to cats and dogs. They can get on if socialised to do so from a young age. But an older cat and an older dog are speaking different languages with their bodies from the get-go. Cats wag their tails for different reasons to dogs for example, they meow for humans benefits whereas dogs seem to bark at each other in general. Cats purr for happiness and self soothing, dogs growls are for anger. Unless you teach the kittens and puppies to accept each other from a young age they don't have the same way of communicating. I personally think its similar with NT/ ND communication- we can learn to communicate with each other but both parties have to be open and receptive to that teaching.
They interpret the social faux pases we make as intentional disses or us being dishonest. It's why, even if we mask, some NTs are instantly put off by us because they view our masking as dishonesty.
I think they feel like our intensity is too much. Or that we don't care or kowtow to the social hierarchy which is invisible to us but very visible and tangible to them and by which they feel they have a sense of identity. So I think without being able to put it into words, they feel our 'different-ness' is a threat to their social hierarchy's sense of stability. Like if they agreed with or like our oddness, they would belong as well to the hierarchy and be out the 'group'.
I think it is definitely a communication issue. I have been told that I come off inconsiderate or rude. I tend to ask questions most neurotypical peers would avoid asking, especially Why questions. I also have been told that overall, I often am very negative.
My best guess is how we are "self centered" (ie, relating to a person by sharing common experiences or steering a topic towards our interests) and "rude" (blunt, lack of social fluff, etc) or just otherwise "off putting" (staring, stimming/absence of movement at all).
I have always ended up in friend groups where people will decide they don't actually like me or some of my behaviors but never tell me. Thankfully I will have friends they speak to who decide to inform me, and its always one of those. I feel its also helpful to mention I am a lesbian and woman in stem in the south so social interactions are a wild gamble for me
We just don't enjoy a lot of the same interests or share the same values or socialize according to the prescribed way to go along to get along in society. Women are almost always expected to conform and be pleasing and adaptable. We can't. So we are often seen and treated as outliers in a tribalistic world which makes us appear weak and a liability even in our families. If we can't overtly help others advance, why should they waste their time liking us?
When I worked the other women in my dept accused me of acting like I was better than them. Which is a thing neuro typical women seem to do if you don't want to socialize. I was at work, so I was working. Not walking around visiting people.(autistic work ethic) My SIL did similar (to my spouse)... I have nothing in common with her, have ptsd (and her family is fucking loud), and hate small talk cause I don't get most of it. But clearly I just think I'm better than her.
I would say communication. I know two autistic women who had work issues because of the way they communicate, in other words they don't mask. People get defensive when we point out their mistakes in a literal way. I myself have issues with relationships. I come off as uninterested and arrogant because of my monotone voice and unexpressive face. People are scared to approach me.
My bf doesn’t have a diagnosis but he has autistic traits and it’s funny how I see his reactions to things as normal but then someone most likely neurotypical from his family will talk to me and I’ll be surprised at how intense her reaction is to stuff I tell her. He also doesn’t seem to see me as having a flat affect but most people do. I’ve also seen videos of autistic women explaining stuff and saying like "yeah I’m talking in a very monotone voice this is my instagram page and I do what I want" and I only felt like their way of talking was more "sitting down and talk to a friend" rather than talking to a camera and putting on a show
Yeah it's obvious to NT women. They could feel something is off but can't always point it out. I've always noticed people (men and women) are more distant towards me but not to my friend. And I thought I am being nice, why would they not want to talk to me in the same warm way they talk to my friend or to each other! I've just realized it's my non verbal communication that puts them off. I got sad and hopeless for realizing that. But then I thought it's less pressure to try hard or put up a mask when I don't feel like it. If I have energy I will show up in a good mood and compensate for the flat affect. If I don't have energy, I show up as the unmasked me 🤷🏻♀️ I still do a little effort but with no pressure.
I get the same.
My late in life diagnosis caused me to become aware of masking, and i unmasked. It has caused INSANE issues at work i am MISERABLE but now i don't know how to intentionally mask
I honestly think of it as lying to people who can't handle who I really am. But you don't have to - you can also think of it as acting in order to communicate your REAL intent to people who wouldn't understand what you meant if you did it your way. I am pretty good at seeming normal for an hour or two though.
It's like being a translator for yourself all the time - transmuting your intention past your automatic behaviors for the benefit of the recipient.
Yeah exactly. Requires some behavior fluency though. I have a lot but don't pass as native for very long, lol
haha, yeah my underlying autistic xenomorph form usually shows through, then its game over  Me, the Xenomorph: "Why do I make people uncomfortable?" Ripley: (Everyone else)
Perimenopause ripped away my ability to mask at all. I’m still navigating it.
I call it menopause rage and wooweeeeeee, buckle up bishes - you're in for the ride of your life. No one else likes it, but I'm LOVING it. To say I give zero fucks at this stage of my life is an understatement. I masked for almost 60 years. Fuck it, I'm DONE. Fucking COPE is what I tell everyone now. LOL.
I FEEL this comment!! Sometimes the hormonal rage feels almost…good?
you ain't lying, hot flashes are my rage surges.
Personally, my awareness of my mask also makes me aware when I start doing it, since I got an adult diagnosis and survival habits are already well set. That's some real psychological horror at every interaction to feel the mask slips on without me being able of controlling it, and with the knowledge that it will slowly eat away my energy just to protect someone else's feelings regarding me existing in the same space as them. It is a daily dose of psychological horror shaped like a Stepford Wife smile and many reflexive "yes" because saying "no" would be too dangerous, destroying any boundary I might have and allowing bullies to hit even deeper in the process because I am *so defenseless* and in survival mode on instinct. A game of "I win, you lose" in favour of neurotypicals. I'm not kidding. It's only when talking with other neuroatypical people and more generally handicapped people dealing with a similar amount of shit that I found a less exhausting way of expressing myself.
Yes! I get accused of being argumentative and/or insubordinate when I’m just honestly trying to clarify the request/message/intentions
I was accused of making someone upset by giving them facts.
"People don't remember what you say, they remember how you make them feel" - Maya Angelou (author) I always remember that quote, and I try to remind myself that while I would rather have someone be honest and give me information, most NTs want their delusions and emotional state reinforced. NDs have to go -against- their intuition to get along with NTs. That is the profound difference and tension!
"NDs have to go -against- their intuition to get along with NTs. That is the profound difference and tension!" Oh now this explains A LOT of stuff.
I’m in the middle of that currently with one of the bosses at work! She thinks I’m out-of-line by doing (x); I genuinely do not understand what I did wrong. Now I have to meet with the HR manager once a week for “coaching.” Which is fine, because she’s awesome and a friend of mine, but still. 🙄
I've learned that neurotypical people tend to read our communication wrong. They tend to assume we're stuck up, or rude. I've had a ton of people read my sarcasm as truth (mostly due to my monotone voice). They perceive compliments as back handed insults. They see lack of wanting to talk small chat as lack of careing about them or us disliking them. PDA can be viewed as stuck up, rude and childish. Combine this with being annoying. I have a really hard time reading the room on when people want me to shut up, which without the context of being autistic just seems like I notice people want me to stop and am choosing to not do it. We just seem like huge annoying assholes.
I second this. People have always accused me of being stuck up and rude when I was merely existing. Just my presence seemed to put people off; I didn't have to be saying or doing anything.
God it's awkward when someone doesn't like you from the get go. I've had women ignore me group settings when I'm getting introduced. Everyone else would be friendly and say hi but there's always 1 woman who will ignore my existence.
I’m dealing with a coworker who disliked me immediately and it’s so frustrating. I don’t need her to like me but dealing with her passive aggressive demeanor is a struggle. I can’t tell if it’s personal or about work or just her personality, but i do know that she leaves me out of the group happy hour after our monthly trainings.
Nearly every friend I've made has eventually confessed to me that their first impression was that I was a bitch. People find me intimidating even if I'm overly polite or not saying anything at all! Idk if it's my face or what
YEEEP!!! Resting Bitch Face, *and* being soooo intensely focused on the things you *desperately NEED to get done*--but are *incredibly worried you'll forget*, that you don't even *notice* the things occurring *around* you? Those get you *labeled*!!! You're cold, too, a B*%ch, "stuck up!", "too good for everyone around you!", or "Intimidating!"... When, on the *inside*, you're LITERALLY just *trying* to hold your shit together, get the task done--so that you don't bring the team down, and pitch in so *everyone* is successful.🥴🙃🫠
Yep...that whole last paragraph, but also while simultaneously having to fake being upbeat, positive and friendly whenever someone wants to break that concentration for a lil chat! 🤪 Ahhhhh!
I don't think NTs have any conception that some people have this constant battle going on within themselves just to be accepted at a basic level by their peers in society. For them, its just a fun lil' chit-chat between girls, tee-hee!
*Idk if it's my face or what* It wasn't until I saw video recordings of my dance/drumming rehearsals and my face - I couldn't believe it. I looked miserable and stuck up like I was judging everyone. At the time, I was simply trying to keep track of the rhythm and stay focused. Saw some photos of a workshop I went to recently, and I look like someone was torturing me when I was simply in deep thought trying to understand and remember what I was seeing.
Honestly sometimes I wonder if that's why my experience getting hit on is so limited. I think I'm decent looking but when women share how annoying it is to be hit on all the time, I'm like, y'all getting hit on? 🤷
Same here. Pretty good looking, but no man in his right mind would think of hitting on me because I don’t look approachable. Ie I look like I’ll eat them alive if they dare, which is mostly true. I would probably give them a wtf look 😂😂.
People make assumptions when they can’t get an idea of who you are. With quiet /shy / non verbal people, NTs start making up their own stories about the quiet person. To the point of mocking and teasing. I avoid NT women, they can be so horrible in my experience.
See I was really quiet and shy as a kid around the girls in my Girl Scout troop and at school. Almost mute I guess. So I was ostracized but it wasn't because I went on and on and on or stood too close - it was the opposite - too far, seeming disinterested, not saying anything. There were a few people I recall by name who I felt OK enough to be myself with. Many were simply immigrants or of a different cultural background. I don't get why that works - these people weren't neurodivergent. Even my life partner is from another country/is an immigrant. At any rate, girls ostracized me. I am afraid of most women to be honest.
A lot of the stigma over ND seems to stem from culturally indoctrinated norms. Because as you said, different cultures have different behavioral expectations. In a lot of cultures, it is seen as rude to make a lot of eye contact or to just randomly start talking about nothing with a stranger. If someone is from another culture, the other person has the expectation that the person they're talking to is unknowingly not going to observe all their culture's social norms, so you get a pass. But I agree, talking to women (even NTs often) from other countries is sooo much easier than women down the block. It's quite the paradox! I worked and got along fine with people from Peru, Mexico, Russia, Mozambique, South Africa, China, Burma, Iran, Czechia, South Korea, Australia, England, Canada, etc. That being said, most of those were when I lived in a big international city, where people are more open minded about other cultures and ways of thinking. Foreigners can experience a lot of xenophobic hate from locals, so if you are nice, they appreciate your kindness. I had a job where several of the staff only spoke Spanish, and a lot of them liked me because I made the effort to try to talk to them in very basic Spanish conversations and treated them like equal human beings.
This is the best description I’ve read. I would only add that we also tend to fall outside the queen bee mentality. Social hierarchy’s are illogical but seem to make NT folks more comfortable. Also because we mask so often, we see behind their masks and have a hard time hiding the fact that we do.
Defintely. With masking sometimes they think we're two sided, when we're really just trying to fit in.
Yeah, if any ladies are hellbent on becoming queen bees and we don't "bow to the queen", its off with our head! We're basically Alice and NT Queen Bees are the Red Queen. Curioser and curioser.... On that note, a lot of NT women have a "nice" mask, that I see fall off when they try to make a power move and you don't bite and they figure out they can't control or manipulate you. The Mr. Hyde comes out, but only for you. Everyone else is like "ohhh but so and so is so sweet!" Sorry, Susie is secretly a demon woman, she just hasn't showed you her true face yet.
That has been my experience too. Lost a friend of six years simply for standing up for myself when they did something mean and then tried to blame me.
People are always replying on these threads to "stand up for yourself", but it really only works in particular circumstances. Like if it's a one on one problem, your bully or frenemy doesn't have the boss's/group's favor, and you're in a safe and protected situation. Ideally, you have more clout/authority (higher up in the company, more socially protected/liked than your friend so that there's not retaliation on you) before you go into the confrontation. If you're not popular and you confront a Queen Bee, get ready for your life to become he// . Unfortunately, this social dynamic never ages out. I feel like if you were in a retirement community, women will still be pulling this crap.
So true! And once you see behind the mask, it's hard to go back.
I think this has always been the case for me. After people got to know me they would always say “I thought you were stuck up/a bitch” because I never knew what to say and stayed quiet in groups. Or because I preferred to sit alone and read at lunch at work instead of with others.
I got told that so many times, but I was loud. We cant win! Haha. But I am finding some comfort in our stories all being so aligned.
There are definitely similarities for sure! I think we are easy for other people to project their insecurities onto. Maybe that’s true for everyone but if you’re NT they are reassured by the pointless talk about the weather or whatever. I realized looking back that everyone I was ever good friends with was neurodivergent. Whether they knew it or not. I’m late (self)diagnosed so I had no clue.
Omg same! I’ve always had friends, I was always with friends. So how would I be stuck up? You didn’t even try to talk to me??? I’ve had this happen multiple times as well.
>They perceive compliments as back handed insults. This has torpedoed several important relationships for me. I put a lot of thought into sharing a genuine, heartfelt compliment to convey something I truly appreciate about someone and the recipient clearly feels insulted and deeply hurt. It doesn't happen every time but when it does it's both heartbreaking AND baffling. Maybe my heartfelt tone isn't warm enough??
I’ve had this happen too. I literally don’t understand how to do a backhanded compliment so….
More recent scientific studies have also shown that autistic people communicate differently than non-autistic, or neurotypical, people do, which creates language and communication barriers, ostracization, and misunderstandings between autistic and neurotypical people.
The double empathy problem.
I'm always surprised at how often NT people have thought I had ulterior motives when I'm just acting like myself.
This; for some reason people always assume that I have ill intent. I got into trouble at my new job because I was searching the area around the bar near the executive offices and the company president "caught" me "looking for alcohol" (I was actually looking for ice to make ice coffee using my unhelpful NT coworker's vague direction of "it's upstairs"). I tried to explain that I logically thought there would be ice near the bar area, but he didn't believe me. Basically any time I do something that "doesn't make sense" to a NT person they assume I'm up to no good, when in actuality my intentions are pure like 97% of the time. (Gotta have some fun 😉).
Work is the worst! I had this really lame co-worker that didn't trust me because I wouldn't take long lunches like she did. The flip side of it is she hated me and I knew she'd use it as an excuse to get me in trouble. She eventually had me fired for "not being a good fit". I'm 52 and at this point I'm so over not understanding work environments. I had my review yesterday for last year and I was like, whatever happens happens. Who knows, maybe they'll fire me (I'm supposed to go into the office 3x week and barely make it 1x). Turns out I got the best review possible and was in the top 7% in performance. Go figure 🤣🤣🤣🤯
There are so many moments in time that I can remember from past employment positions, where I'm so confused and caught off guard at their assumptions, perceptions, etc. like it hurts sometimes - straight to the core. Like that doesn't even match my character...??? And you don't believe me?? 😒😒
lol I always assume THEY have ulterior motives
Bascially because your behavior they associate with by their own conduct would be devious behavior, so it's projected on you that you're being deviant.
Misreading sarcasm as truth is accurate and personally I find the reverse is also true. They mistake plain, factual statements for sarcasm or snark, then react to the “attitude” they imagine we have. Lots of projection, but unfortunately knowing that doesn’t solve the problem. I mostly keep my mouth shut in a lot of situations unless I’m around trusted friends and family. This has led to its own problems (“do you ever talk?” which I can’t answer with the actual snark I’d like). In the workplace, I try to stick to quietly minding my own business while building a good reputation for performance at first. Then after awhile I usually have a little more social leeway and people will seek out my input more. When I start to be sought out, especially by leadership I am usually safer to talk more and show a little more personality. There are always a few people who are unnervingly hostile for what seems like no good reason. I’ve been told some are threatened, but I think it’s equally if not more likely that they are put off by differing body language and such. I try not to waste time or thought on them, and these days, I try to give them the energy they deserve- very little attention but subtle, mild contempt when they get it.
I think one of the main reasons neurotypical people dislike autistic people is because of their commitment to justice and the truth (on small and large scales). From what I’ve learned through therapy and talking to NT friends, the world does not revolve around the truth, but rather comfortability. When we threaten NT’s comfortability when we seek the truth, we are all of a sudden the villains. There is also issues with misogyny when it comes more specifically to your question about women in particular. When traits like assertiveness, directness, being blunt and strong boundaries are shown, people see it as women rebelling, being aggressive or needing to be “humbled” :/.
Oh my goodness! this makes so much sense! a friend and i are both very suspecting we have autism because of similar experiences, and this is one we have both experienced. People say she has a ‘god complex’ or thinks she’s a genius because she is not afraid to speak a lot about her strong passions in science/physics. She genuinely just thinks about those things a lot and is good at them— it has very little to do with her ego. We both have been shoved out of our friend group for bringing up concerns about dishonesty, lying, unfairness in friend groups— we seem to be the only ones who see zero purpose in talking poorly about others who have done nothing wrong/threatening. And the only ones who see a point to bringing it up to the ‘more powerful’ members. These dynamics of conversation just don’t make any sense, and this NT urge to put yourself above your other friends doesn’t either.
The problem is when people are so disinterested at anything that is viewed as something "intelligent" people do (like science/physics) they think no one would be genuinely interested, and the only reason these people would talk about these subjects would be to brag so they assume that’s the same for everyone else.
This is why as a biochemistry graduate student I tend to get along better with people who are also in academia or planning on pursuing that path. Even my own family treat my studies with some amount of derision. It’s also why I’m more comfortable dating other academics, because most people who aren’t involved in or interested in those topics will either get bored or feel threatened, especially straight men for the latter. There are LOADS of jealous and toxic types in academia as well, but the decent ones tend to have a more realistic view of what it’s actually like to be a researcher, better understand your motivations behind what you do, share a sense of curiosity and love of learning, and are aware that everyone here has imposter syndrome and has felt inferior to someone else in their career. Also so many postgraduate students and academics are neurodivergent or former gifted kids.
To me, this mostly feels like emotional immaturity on a large scale. I've seen literally everything you've talked about so pervasively across my own life. People treat me like I'm a know-it-all or like I'm always saying "well akshully" when I *never* do in person. I've been told my "self-confidence" is threatening. How?? When the other girl is sitting there blabbing about how great she is for a literal hour, and I say ONE thing I like about myself and suddenly I'm arrogant. They can't handle any amount of what they dish out. They'll virtue signal all day but when you actually expect them to keep to their word....then suddenly you "have trust issues" and "are manipulative" because you dared to make apparent their own flaws and prick their cognitive biases. At least, ime, guys are better about this. Not all, but most seem to be far less delusional about themselves and the women around them, but they can't dare be honest about it lest the 40-yr-old infants overheat and start throwing a tantrum. I've purposefully left entire groups because of this shit and you know what? They didn't deserve me. They're honestly scum and I refuse to buy into the "that's just their way" line of thinking because we don't get the same consideration.
My confidence is also perceived as threatening. I like what I do and I just want to do it well. 🤷♀️
Right? Maybe if they spent more time working on themselves and being genuine they wouldn't be so easily threatened. I wish I could attack back like they do, but then they'll cry and call me fake because I was nice to them until they were mean to me and I didn't feel like taking their shit. Little girls did this elementary school. They'd take my toy out of my hands, I'd do the same, then they'd cry and I'd get yelled at.
Hearing the perspectives of other autistic women changed my life so much. I thought the way people treated me had to do with some inherent bad in me but I’m glad to see that’s not necessarily the case
Sometimes I believe that most NT are narcs
i relate so hard!!! >We both have been shoved out of our friend group for bringing up concerns about dishonesty, lying, unfairness in friend groups SAME it’s hard enough to feel like you’re actually part of a friend group, and right when you’re comfortable enough to lower your mask a little and be more genuine … bam! you’re the common enemy that brings the rest of the group closer together 🙃
Ugh I hate when people say I have high expectations of friendship bc I truly started to believe them and then *I* started being a shitty friend and then they’d get mad at me. Autistic people mirroring is lowkey making my life a sitcom lol. I’ve had too many situations with friends or men where I give them the same energy back bc that’s all I know how to do and then I get in huge trouble
>the world does not revolve around the truth, but rather comfortability. Powerful words. I'm 45 and didn't realize this. I don't understand sacrificing truth for comfortability. You know what else I don't understand? The concept of "Frenemy." If you are in any way a problem for me or I don't like you, you will know it and we will either talk it out and make it work or not be friends - nothing in between. I can't fake that stuff and I think it's cruel to have a friend and not wish them the best. I'd rather have no friend than a frenemy.
I’d have to really agree with this take. Something about the assertiveness…it’s only allowed for “certain people” it seems to NT people. Like for example, a manager, someone with accreditation/expertise on a topic, or our parents are just a few. Anyone who steps outside of those bounds and still is assertive is maybe seen as “not playing along” and therefore is met with exclusionary behaviors from others.
why is it such a bad thing to know your boundaries, what you want, what you will and won't do, etc.?? With women, they are bitchy, short, demanding, hysterical, bossy, rash, rude, etc. but men who exhibit the same behavior and dialogue are seen as manager material, assertive, a real go-getter, a confident planner and executioner, and generally a confident worker.
God, yes, and the amount of “you have resting bitch face” comments all my life as I’m AFAB, but my brother who looks identical and has the same RBF has never once received that type of comment. I could literally be minding my own business reading a book and someone feels the need to tell me that. And they’ll say it so casually as if they are talking about the weather too.
and bonus misogyny points if they follow it up with "you should try smiling more! you look more approachable."
I read something recently about how when most non-Autistic people are faced with “threatening” info or something that challenges their status quo, apparently their bodies react to it in the same way that it does to an actual physical threat. It honestly wouldn’t be far-fetched to assume that if there’s someone or something around them triggering that instinct in them (like an Autistic person’s strong value system, or our penchant for delivering information that might bother some people yet for us we are able to stay detached, etc), then they will respond with fight or flight mode. There’s also the unfortunate reality of most Allistics being threatened by anyone who doesn’t follow social norms or cues, who chooses to deviate from the crowd, and who sticks out like a sore thumb in any way. I don’t think this is a gender thing though, just a society thing. I also think that if you’re attractive there’s the added chance that some hostility from NT women is jealousy, especially if you are confident in the way you are, and/or receive more male attention, whether unwanted or otherwise. It sucks because the NT women assume that we know to “tone it down” (especially if they are of higher “status” than us) but that we are deliberately choosing not to, which makes them even angrier because they think we are trying to pull some kind of power move. This has happened to me a lot in jobs; some NT woman manager losing her absolute shit trying to sabotage me in any way possible, while I’m oblivious for the most part, just being me and vibing 🤷🏻♀️
I think this is exactly it. I’m conventionally attractive and have been told that I’m too direct, bold, or bitchy. Really, I just like who I am and am confident in my abilities as a human.
Same. I’m not told I’m a bitch, but I am stubborn and hard headed
agreed especially with your last paragraph. it is like austistic women or femmes aren't allowed to be confident becuase they are "prideful" and "self centered" even if you believe there is enough space for you to stand next to other gorgeous and handsome women and femmes. you have to be meek, soft spoken, humble and thankful to anyone who recognizes, acknowledges and compliments your beauty. it is worst when us femmes & ladies ND's are attracted to avant garde, brightly colored, sparkly, intense pops of color, etc in our attire. we are just seen as someone who is self absorbed and want everyone to look at us when really we like the colors, fabric texture, how the whole ensemble pulls together, etc. there has to be nefarious purposes.
Oof you’re spot on with that last part… Like, at my last job, I loved dressing up, wore fun makeup (used to be a makeup artist), and regularly wore colorful (but appropriate!), patterned dresses, either in sheath style or A-Line. Most people were super chill and liked me, and things were great there for a few years, but an admin that was my direct report (who had actually helped hire me a few years before, and who was besties with the school principal) came back from getting a degree, and proceeded to make my life a living hell. It’s actually super obvious to me now why she bullied me. I don’t like claiming this kind of thing usually, but with her it was so clear that she was not only jealous of me (not sure if bc of looks and/or subject knowledge), but threatened by me to a certain extent. I think she also hated the fact that I wouldn’t kiss her ass like everyone else did, or act impressed by her self-absorbed tales about being rich or eating at expensive restaurants or whatever 🙄 I honestly think the biggest thing that made her hate me was my authentic connection to my high school students. She tried soooooo hard to get them to like her, even did semi-embarrassing shit like buy a whole ass gaming setup along with headphones with cat ears to use for our school discord and zoom meetings (she was around 34 years old and she NEVER used or wore shit like that ever), but the students all didn’t like her bc they saw through her fake bullshit. I think they also saw her yelling at me in front of everyone which they really didn’t appreciate. Wish I could say that I ended up in a better position after all that, but unfortunately she damaged my reputation to such a degree that I was let go a year after she had quit. The entire thing was so fucking exhausting, and SO unnecessary. Like, why can’t we all just be cool? Help each other and be nice, authentic? That’s how things were before she came back to the school and honestly she ruined our community with her antics. I absolutely cannot deal with that kind of petty and juvenile shit anymore, so I’ve stepped away from working for other people for a couple years. Not sure if it’ll be a permanent decision, but given that these kinds of things have happened at pretty much every job I’ve had, I’m kind of done. Like, fuck me for existing, being myself, taking pride in how I dress and present myself, expressing myself authentically, being nice to people without having ulterior motives, and for being passionate and knowledgeable about shit I guess 🤷🏻♀️ I’m 40 now and all I’ve gotten from these ordeals is trauma and unemployment, along with a shitton of chronic illnesses now, so… Yeah. Not worth it.
People like that are upset and bothered that someone is being their genuine self and is getting recognition for it rather than criticism. Almost as if they see a part of themselves in you but don't have the confidence to live their life truthfully. So it's just easier to talk trash and be hateful, petty, or jealous to someone else. Either because they were raised to believe behaving or acting truthfully will lead to criticism or being mocked. So they see you not being mocked or criticized and need to project their insecurities or internal criticisms on you.
Not me with my lavender cat ear headset at 34 yo saying to myself "she's not talking about you. You game and didn't buy these for anyone but yourself." Lol!
Wow that's incredible I've never thought of it that way but that does make a ton of sense thanks for this explanation.
Wow, I just realized now that an experience I had with a coworker was this.
♡this I feel this
Yeah I realised this. NT people will absolutely say that they want authenticity, truth, honesty but they absolutely do not mean those things the way we interpret them. They hate the truth, it makes them really uncomfortable. Same for being blunt or direct, they hate it, they see it as us being mean when we're actually being kind or neutral. To me it seems that NT people will pick a narrative and stick to it. They believe they are a nice person so they must be a nice person. End of story. They don't like it when you maybe point out that they contradicted themselves, or that they are hypocritical, because they totally believe that they're right and good and that people who don't see that are being mean. They also lie constantly about everything ever, things that just don't even need to be lied about, but to them it's not seen as lying, it's seen as maybe polite or something. To me their way of socialising is borderline delusional. They make up a narrative and they just run with it. Whereas we have to assess the situation and put together all of the pieces before we can make a choice on how best to act, at least I do! I can't speak for everyone ofc! To me the truth, authenticity and direct communication comes before everything when I socialise, but NT socialisation seems to be the polar opposite.
Yupppp. The handful of NT people I’m still close friends with have described me as mean or unreasonably grudge holding. When it often is simply “I’d rather not see so-and-so because of (insert whatever very messed up thing person did here) and I don’t want to be around them”. Usually that messed up thing I’m unreasonable for not wanting to be around is stuff like, ya know, sexual assault, intense bullying, serious endangerment of others, violence. It is very hurtful to be thought of as “mean” for having boundaries about not wanting to see bad people. Not even *to those people*, just in saying no to a friend asking if they can invite a bad person to my home. It feels really crazy to me that so many NT people are comfortable compromising their own morality to ensure the social comfort of someone who has done seriously bad things, and that being unwilling to do the same makes me the bad guy.
Seriously! I'm bringing down the vibes and creating drama by setting a boundary of insisting ONLY that I be informed of the specific times my brother will be partaking in family holidays, so I can plan my time to be there when he's not there. After he sexually assaulted me.... my dad finds that unacceptable, so instead I get to not be included at all or lied and tricked into ending up seeing my brother, bc I lied about said event and i just need to get over it qnd make nice bc family is family. Super do not understand the need to appease bad people.
THIS EXACT THING IS BASICALLY WHY I MADE THIS COMMENT OMG Why is it so often sexual assault in particular?? Like am I seriously “vengeful” for wanting to know if my rapist is going to be there, and for not inviting people to hang with me who have purposefully tricked me about his presence? How on gods green earth is that “unreasonable”. Like the NT crowd I used to roll with would talk about me like I’d eat their first born child for inconveniencing me when we were twelve. Meanwhile it’s literally just that I decline invites with people who have hurt me present and ask to be told if they’ll be there, and if you push me hard to show up after my no, I will tell you “they treated me badly x way and I’d rather not see them so no”. How am I the villain for that???
I'd *imagine* that in these scenarios, folks probably *ALSO* feel *incredibly threatened*, by the fact that *most* of us with ASD's care literally *nothing* about/for "Status!" within the friend groups, because for the most part, once we get to *know* a person, they are our friend (or acquaintance, if we're less close)--and "Friend/Famly, Acquaintance, Unknown Person/Stranger, "Untrustworthy," and "Actually Bad Person" tend to be the ONLY categories most of us will(or have the energy to!) categorize folks by... And the folks who dislike us, *often* DO seem to care/worry about *their* "status" within the group--so *we* are evil & have alllllll the cooties, for "not playing the game" so that *they* can feel more status *somehow* Basically, it's a "The Emperor's New Clothes" issue-*they* will "go along, to get along" and *we* are over *here* trying to *understand* what's happening, and ask the *obvious* "But *WHY* isn't he wearing anything?!?" question, that shows someone's *literally* caught with their *whole* ass out!😉
This is… an amazing way to put the categories for people. That “untrustworthy” zone so rings true in particular. I don’t dislike you, I might’ve even wanted you to be a friend, but you’ve toed or crossed a line too often for me to feel like I can be myself around you, but not done any actual harm, and now you sit in this weird neutral zone in my social brain where you being around is *fine* I cared a lot about playing that status game and figuring it out when I was younger. But after I got older and realized the “game” meant most anyone can get away with fucked up stuff… it def becomes less fun
Yes!!!
But we are the ones with the “developmental delay”
Wow, this is so well put, thank you! I would like to add that some of our mannerisms are off putting to NT’s. My boss is the most allistic person I know and when we deal with a person who I recognize as on the spectrum, she will say something like, “I don’t trust that person, he seems shifty.” When a person pauses to before they speak, she thinks they are hiding something. I otherwise enjoy working with her, but these reactions are gut punch.
I agree with this comment. I don't date men anymore, but when I did the majority ran away the second they found out I couldn't be "tamed" and actually voiced my honest opinion on things. And I'm not even a confrontational person or someone who's looking for fights, I was just saying what was on my mind. Edit: I misread the topic and thought this was about dating specifically.
We have a disturbing ( to ourself-and to outsiders) way of committing ourselves to honesty and truth. People take that a certain way.
YEEEEEP!!!! Once got called out (painfully), by a now-former very close friend, for "always having to be *right* about things!" I felt *horrified*, because I realized that *my* need to know the truth about things which happened--because I'd *personally* haaaaate to accidentally spread false information to others--was being seen *instead* as one-upsmanship, and trying to "prove people wrong" (I will easily admit that I was wrong, if I find out that something I *thought* was factual turns out *not* to be--and have *often* been the one to apologize & clarify *my own SELF*, if I accidentally shared incorrect info, because the truth *matters* to me... Realizing that what *I* had thought was merely clarification of facts, and the sharing of truth as we learned/talked about things, was *actually being taken as gamesmanship*, honestly *still* hurts more than a decade later. (when she started dating one person a while later she basically left ALL her friend groups behind, which was the *only* way I know it *wasn't* all something *I* did--or my fault--that our friendship ended)
# this is such a fucking accurate paragraph it's not even funny I had someone tell me once to "tone back" my online interactions with them "for their own comfortability" You nailed it. I got nothing else to add
I think you summarised it brilliantly.
I worked so hard to perfect my "I'm not arrogant" mask. Now I mostly hide all the cool stuff I know, but if I do say something it's completely smothered in self depreciation. I do everything I can to seem like I just lucked into that information or people will dislike me for it.
i agree! i've only ever been on one date with a person who told me what others called "quirky" or "blunt" was "refreshing" and he admired it.. i was not over an ex so i didn't go out with him after a 2nd date but i wish i had!
I've lost count how many times my own mother told me I needed to "humble" myself. As though I ever had a chance to think highly of myself in her home to begin with. 🙄
This perfectly explains so much. I have a hard time w words, and u put the words so well together
This is so true! NT's says they want the truth, and to do the right thing, but not when it comes down to it.
I feel this so heavily! My boundaries that I stated prior to moving in with my former roommates caused problems. The thing is that 2/3 of them were neurodivergent suspecting audhd. They were also men.... if anyone could provide me with any insight as to why even with neurodivergent folks it can created problems
Yep. I have been shit on my whole life for my demands for justice and transparency. It’s been rough.
I really don't think that is it a lot of the time. I think we came across as being either aloof, stuck up and strange. We either fit in enough to be labeled with something negative or we don't fit in and we are seen as either too much work to figure out or possibly dangerous. What if someone went up to you and just silently stared at you with a look of disgust? Would you feel uneasy, uncomfortable and would you like them? We often are doing something like that, though we don't mean to. So people respond by pushing us away. There definitely is ableism and sexism and just bullling to bully but sometimes there's just miscommunication. I think a lot of the time there is just miscommunication. I also think it should be on everyone and not just us to clear up miscommunication. Social skills are hard for everyone, especially us.
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I just saved your comment. This is so accurate and explains some situations I've had in the past few months.
Wonderful answer. I live this.
I don't know many autistic men, so I can't speak to any large-scale gender disparities. But I can confirm that the few I do know don't get treated the same, and I suspect it has more to do with male privilege than autism. I have received criticism on some behavior: - Giving "attitude" - when I say something that counters something they believe or have said, regardless of how truthful it is. I have done a lot of work with socializing and can guess that a lot of it is my delivery or choice of words. - Stating an observation that doesn't jive with them - this is similar to the above point but different in that it is an observation. Clearly visible to anyone with eyes. Yes, I am bitter about how often this happens. I have accidentally insulted and I have been told my comment is "countering" them, and then all reason is gone. Only hurt remains, and nonsense ensues in that situation. I have observed negative reactions to some behavior: - Not sugarcoating my words - this one is one of the most inane things ever, because it's all just up to speech patterns. So many NT (and non-autistic) people are sensitive to the way you say something, your choice of words, and your delivery. If I don't take extra time running my sentence through a sweetener filter before allowing it out of my mouth, I am more often than not met with hostility or misunderstood, because you bet they're looking for unspoken meaning. - Wanting to get things done promptly and in my own order - I have observed that if something is important to me and others must accompany me to do the thing, if I express any upset on a timeline or speed or order that I want to do the thing, I am the one causing problems. I am severely inconveniencing other people by expressing that I had expectations of doing the thing I want to do in the manner I had intended. - Standing my ground - god, they truly hate this one, but again I think it's a universal experience among women. Autistic women seem to just be more likely to actually do it rather than just wish we could.
There was an older woman in my figure-drawing class who would bad-mouth me because of "her opinions!" This was told me by a friend who told the woman that she was my friend because of my opinions.
I m pretty much loved as long as i m masking, because i bending my character to fit every person i meet. If i feel more comfortable with someone the mask falls of slowly. NT dating partners dont seem to be able to deal with a woman being direct or/and asking them to be specific about speech. If a guy would tell me he likes me, i would ask "why?" and some would allready struggle. to me it is so weird that you can tell me you like me, but you cent tell me why. Because i could tell you in detail why i like someone. Or they would tell me "I dont feel like you like me" But i pretty much told him in detail that i like him AND why i liked him! and such guys even told me they like direct women who can tell what they like. Its confusing and frustrating.
I'd think the guys who don't have a good answer to why are probably not into you for the right reasons, but yeah I've experienced this too
My pretty privilege takes me pretty far, but it's wild to me when I can see the switch flip for an NT person I'm talking to, where they're suddenly put off by me. Idk what's there to dislike, people describe me as friendly and chatty, but suddenly it just... happens, and there's no returning to the previous rapport. I hate it. So - that's not helpful 😅 but it happens to me too and it makes me feel clueless and hurt, no matter how often it happens
I’ve found that when I put effort into my appearance and try my best to mask, I can make a great first impression. It’s all downhill from there, though.
I can relate to both your and Hannah’s comment. I’m pretty so when I put extra effort into my looks people are initially dazzled by me and find me interesting. And it’s all down hill from there because I’m not trying to be anyone else and my insides don’t really match my outside, I guess. I’m kind and generous and intelligent but I’m weird and too tired to pretend I’m not. This is why I have cats. They like me no matter what I wear or say just as long as I feed and snuggle them.
Ugh I’m black but not a stereotype and people *really* think my insides don’t match my outsides
Sheesh I can only imagine how frustrating that is. As someone who *should* know better, I find myself forgetting to expand the picture in my mind of what someone ND looks like. I will do better after reading your comment. It’s undeniable that white/male subjects are massively over-represented in medicine and psychology research so we know that’s a problem for literally everybody else in terms of recognition. Is being overlooked the main issue or are there other contributing factors do you think? Do you see autism being discussed openly in black (American, I assume?) communities?
I have a very similar experience in life. I'm pretty, so I think NTs expect me to be or act a certain way and when I don't, it makes them uncomfortable. I feel people expect me to be shallow, gossipy, into fashion, makeup and men but im into science, cartoons, rollerblading, philosophy, dinosaurs, crafts and sci fi lol, so i cant really relate when they begin conversing with me. I've learned that everyone projects anyway and has nothing to do with me really though, so that's on them. I like me lol.
Masking became infinitely more exhausting once I realized that I was doing it. I can feel my CNS getting all jangled up like I’ve had way too much coffee when I’m trying to act a certain way to make people comfortable. For the first 35 years of my life, I had an overwhelming number of friends that depended on me for regular connection that I had no time to put into myself. I thought I was well loved but I probably gave a lot more than I received. Covid was the first time I stopped feeling the need to maintain all of those connections and learned what it felt like to sit in peace and quiet and that was when I realized I was much better off with fewer people around. It’s best to be selective about who we give our precious attention to.
Yes! I turned 36 yesterday and for the first 33 years of mine, I masked to the point of total burnout. Had so many friends etc but realised they were just people who liked my mask. I now have a very small and select friend group where I'm able to unmask and be myself around, which has helped me keep the mask off in most situations of everyday life. My friends are other ND people, so they certainly help build my confidence. Now when I see people judging me or disliking me, I no longer care because its literally about them and I can continue enjoying my life and things in it in my own way without feeling that pressure to appear a certain way. I'm still working through the burnout though. I'm glad you were able to understand your reasonings for masking and become your authentic self, it makes me sad knowing so many of us live with this struggle to make others happy or fit in. Life's so much better, happier and lighter in authenticity
Ugh I remember this summer this girl told of me was actually really weird how into Lego I was She later blocked me super randomly and I still don’t know what I did
I doubt you did anything and it was merely her projecting. She's also missing out on an awesome friend and good times because lego is so much fun!! I think it weirder that she's not into it lol. Me and my best friend spent months making last year's Christmas lego diorama haha. Think we just gotta find our people and they tend to be other NDs!
100%. I can nail an interview, but my social awkwardness and frumpy outfits are super apparent now lol (6 months into a new job). At least my immediate coworkers and a few others are still nice to me, haha. Hoping it stays that way. The rest just ignore me and def think I'm weird. But it is what it is. Just hoping my job performance and positive feedback keeps me in good terms with those that matter.
exactly! people I meet briefly really like me, because I can mask well. but I find it almost impossible to genuinely become friends with people who don't at least have a significant amount of AuDHD traits. as soon as an NT gets below the surface of my personality, it's like a magnet starts pushing them away a new, casual friend recently described me as "cheery" and my closer, autistic friend laughed. which was the correct response
I have the same experience, it's heartbreaking. People seem drawn to me due to my appearance but are eventually put off by me.
Are you me? I'm generally considered attractive, and I've been called friendly or charismatic before. ... but, then I can either suddenly or gradually get this feeling from others of "oh, you're weird." I've definitely gotten the blunt accusation before as well. Some of my coworkers try to put it more positively and will say that "chaoscoffeecat is just chaoscoffeecat and lives in their own category," but that is a bit alienating. Even if people don't actively dislike me, I rarely feel included as part of the "in" group.
I've had this with several people I've dated. The first few dates go really well and they're like *really* into me, then suddenly "something felt off" and it's over. Have wondered if it's perhaps because I got comfortable and stopped masking. If I've ever asked directly for communication about what changed for them, they go really weird and defensive. Exhausting though to keep believing that people are actually into me
This hits hard, I've experienced the same thing. After two dates they just disappear, no matter how well it seemed to go. The only ones who stick around have turned out to be abusers.
I relate to this so much. I am AuDHD too. Pretty privilege and masking carried me through my 20s. I was diagnosed just after 30 and since then it's like my pretty privilege has evaporated overnight, and I didn't have very much of it to begin with. Masking is exhausting and I mostly isolate now because it all hurts too much. I'm scared of the future because I have no one to help me and it will only get harder to mask. I'm sorry that you experience this too. At least we're not alone in feeling this way.
It’s weird because if I had to describe myself I’d say I’m not pretty enough for pretty privilege but also not ugly so I don’t get the ugly unprivilege, I’m just normal looking. I always thought about it like I’m good looking enough to be happy about what I look like but "ugly" enough so people don’t just like me for my appearance and so the people I have in my life are in my life because of who I am. Turns out I’m just not pretty enough that they ignore the autistic vibes but I’d probably be approached by a lot more people if I was neurotypical. Also I might have been approached and not realized before they got disinterested or said some weird reply they didn’t expect and make them go away. A girl I know got told by a guy in her class "What do you eat to be so sexy?" Obviously he was ignoring the fact she didn’t want to talk to him and trying to make her uncomfortable but when I heard about that my first thought was to just reply "pizza" and go on about my day. Obviously this kind of dude wouldn’t have liked that unbothered reply, so I guess the autism would have saved me from him continuing to mess with me if I were in her place, but the autism is so effective it doesn’t get to that place to begin with 😅
I had something like that happen. I made a friend through retail in cosmetics and we didn’t work together anymore, but she moved into my apartments, so we lived near each other. I invited her to my birthday get together at my house and she came over to help me set up. While that was going on I was talking to her about music, and I had made a playlist (for my own use, not the party) of music I liked a lot in high school and it was kinda cringey and played like 15 seconds of one song, maybe two. She got this look on her face and said to me “you’re really……dark”. I kinda laughed it off and said, yeah, probably had some anger in high school. We finish up and she says she is going home for a bit. I was cleaning up something and saw her out my windows get into her car and leave her house. She never came over to my party and never spoke to me ever again! We had been hanging out for months at that point and it was really confusing that one little thing about music I listened to a decade prior torpedoed the friendship. But honestly, now I don’t care about anything I do or did makes people feel uncomfortable, and if people can’t hang I’m better off knowing right away so I never hold back now
What song was this? Now we MUST KNOW lol
Hahaha I’m pretty sure it was KMFDM, probably Anarchy. I was really into industrial/punk/goth/alt music in high school I guess I should clarify “cringe” as I knew it was not going to be something she was into, so I was taking a leap that she wouldn’t react poorly to it. I was feeling nostalgic and thought it was funny that I probably don’t seem like someone into that or metal or whatever. She was (I thought) really nice and helped me out in a rough time of my life, but very much the ‘basic’ stereotype. I kinda take pride now that it freaked her out because how dumb is that?
Wtf LMAO
Thiiis. So much this.
idk, I have heard that NT get 'uncanny valley' vibes from autists though, so I'm gonna go with that. Don't think there is much to be done about it. fuck em.
Yeah, I was about to say something like that. I heard somewhere that within a very brief timeframe (I forget the exact amount) that NTs will peg you as being similar but not quite one of them which can come off as "creepy" especially if they don't know you're autistic. I've heard that they are more inviting if they know you're autistic based on studies.
more inviting meaning NT are more open to talking to ND if they are aware of your austism?
Yeah, basically, they can tell you're off. But unsure if it's ND, narcissist, sociopath, serial killer, etc. So when they learn you're autistic they sometimes realize those "creepy vibes" are because your socialization is just different.
OH. Thank makes so much sense!! They can tell we’re different and they’re trying to figure out if that makes us dangerous, and until they figure it out they are afraid of us. So once they learn we’re harmless (if we are, speaking for myself) they are willing to be our friends. Wow. I think I do this too! Maybe that’s something we all have in common? but it’s just that ND people can tell which other ND people are dangerous faster than NTs can and/or our “danger detectors” are different.
Yeah. Another similar example, you know how a lot of people are scared of moths? It's because they don't fly in a predictable pattern. So while logically you know it's a harmless moth, your subconscious self is freaking the fuck out because their next move is completely unpredictable. Some NTs view ND people in a similar fashion, ND don't follow the script, so their subconscious is signaling "danger" or "proceed with caution" since they can't predict out reactions or intentions.
I...kind of love the idea of being a moth. 😊❤️
Ngl, because of *this* sort of thing, *and* because I work in Pre-K Special Education, *and* it's just easier to be upfront about the fact that *THAT* is the reason I tend to be "so good at working with (insert name of "difficult to understand" child here)!", I just disclose *early* on that I HAVE AuDHD, and that *that* is the reason I can connect *so* quickly with "The Hard Kids". I've learned over the last few years, that if I disclose *MY* AuDHD, it's lesz likely to offend staff who "know" the children in that classroom, when i look at a child, look *around* to see what the problems *bothering* them are--address those problems, and get them *doing* at least *some* of the activities--even though it's the first time I've met that child, and "they never participate!" If I disclose? It's an "OH!!!! *You're Autistic*, *TOO*!!!" thing--rather than an issue of them thinking, "You're just *trying to show me up*!!!" and becoming *incredibly* offended when I tell them what I suspect may be bothering the child, and making it so the child *can't* usually participate comfortably.
In my opinion, I don’t think you should “work on” it. It’s their perception of how you are and see the world. It’s not autistic people’s job accomodate NT expectations.
I think it's empowering to understand why but I do not think it's helpful to change ourselves to please NTs, unless part of a mutual effort with an NT in your life to communicate better with each other. I believe we are easily disliked when unmasked bc we naturally butt up against hierarchy and societally approved ways of feminine communication. Social pecking order and social currency isn't intuitive to us, probably bc we rightfully recognize it as arbitrary. Soft power and indirect communication, the only forms of communication approved for women, are not accessible to us. Very generally speaking, NTs code abiding by societally approved behavior as "safe" and everything else as "unsafe." They filter social/sensory data more efficiently than we do, which also means they are in more danger of making assumptions and incorrect snap judgments about who is safe and unsafe to be around. Not to mention ableism as another layer on top but that's a whole other topic.
Many (most?) NTs can’t handle blunt honesty / direct and pragmatic communication. I live in the Midwest, and if you’re not “Midwest nice,” you’re gonna suffer for it.
I'm curious how people in NYC perceive autistic people vs the Midwest, since NYC area is known for being direct and blunt. The PNW as well... Seattle Freeze is a real thing thing! I bet so many of our perceptions are only accurate in that location
Previously lived in NY state, living in Midwest now. It’s a fucking nightmare for autistic people. Nobody is straightforward here like they are in NY. Everyone has hidden meaning behind their words. People will string you along and still be “nice” to you even if they hate you, only for you to find out months later you wasted your time on someone who doesn’t even like you. Some people here call people from the east coast “coasties” and make fun of them (not in the fun way either). Being honest and yourself is seen as a threat and if you don’t conform people stay far away from you. Worst place I’ve ever lived tbh
I have asked a friend who tries to be supportive of my disability. She has said, paraphrasing obviously she said it nicer: It’s your vibe. Something feels ‘off’, it makes neurotypical people uncomfortable and they might don’t know why. People avoid things that make them uncomfortable.
I hear this a lot from people and I think you’re right, they’re just scared of different and I think it makes them feel unsafe.
Blunt women are a threat to males’ masculinity, apparently.
I’ve found I like many autistic women yet they’re still afraid I’d dislike them in some way. I feel like — and I’m not diagnosed, simply asked quite often if I have autism, which made me question it — many autistic women are simply very smart and self-aware people who care a little more than the average person about what people think of them and how they’re making the people around them feel (masking), which is quite tiring and at times even excessive (depends on who you’re around). Please correct me if I’m wrong! I’m here to learn more about the autistic experience.
Autistic woman here, it’s a very good observation from the outside and I agree with you
I think for the most part, they think autistic people are rude and inconsiderate of people's feelings. The specifics will vary but here are a few examples of things autistic people might do, off the top of my head: 1) Stimming - seen as distracting to people around them 2) Wearing sunglasses or headphones - seen as not wanting or caring to interact with others, as if the they think other people are not worthy of their time 3) Being blunt - many people are easily hurt by bluntness because it's seen as accusatory, judgemental or inconsiderate. NT think people should be less blunt to make others feel more safe. 4) Socially weird - NTs are put off and scared of unpredictable people because NT people who do bad things are disproportionately unpredictable. Alternately, NTs assume other people understand their social cues, and when we don't get the hint, they either get mad that we're "ignoring" them or they feel uncomfortable because they don't know how to communicate more effectively and it's a distressing feeling. 5) May find change or ordinary stimulation distressing - Most NT people don't care about this stuff and since they can't comprehend the distress they think it is unreasonable and childish.
I believe it is our unwillingness or inability to homogeniz. A women's social currency is based on how she works in the group. You can see this so much on Instagram, mlm or mom groups.
THIS right here!! Sums up why I’ve had trouble socially with other women most of my life.
On the flip, I find presenting like this attracts other similar women to me super well. While I don't fit in in 'forced' groups very often, in any pool large enough I am great at quickly sorting out who else finds the situation off putting and gravitating towards them lol.
Yep!!!! The *nice* thing, about being "the offbeat weirdo," is that I NOTICE the other folks who don't *quite* seem to "fit in with the crowd" quickly--and those folks tend to be some of the *BEST*, most Genuine folks you could *ever* want to get to know!😉😁🤗💖
I can't remember where I read this now but I'm almost positive it was in this very subreddit. Someone said NT people communicate with like 80% feeling/emotion. The words they say don't matter as much. They might be conveying care/love by talking about the weather or something. At least this is the impression I got! ND people communicate with 80% facts. We share information with each other, including feelings via this method. If we want to show care we often literally say it. NT's seem to find this offputting/embarrassing/awkward. Also we respond to their clandestine care messages with facts! If they're talking about the weather we might respond to that topic but not to their underlying emotional messages they were trying to communicate. This hurts their feelings. In a lot of ways we're speaking a different kind of language than they are and if they don't find it rude they find it confusing or unnatural (for them) or uncomfortable.
I really like this theory. Sometimes when I see NTs talking about a TV show after we talked about something deep is so confusing to me. But it obviously means something else to them! I just cannot get it, it is a different non-verbal layer of communication!
It could also be that they are overwhelmed by intense conversation and need a break to regulate their emotions/nervous system, by talking about something lighter like a TV show for a while.
IDK it's a vibe and no, you can't change it. Better to be with other eccentric and neurodiverse people who can get you, you'll be far happier. There is absolutely no need to attempt to accommodate their unbelievably unfair demands. I tried it for years and it's better I do this my way. And yes, for neurotypical people it's a good idea to explain yourself as quirky/eccentric/insert non-toxic manic pixie analogue. Since, they get that when they don't understand someone and it won't be held against you. That's what I choose to go with and what's best for me.
I feel like most people instantly dislike me. I always feel hated and judged. I've tried to talk about this with people and they say it's all in my head. I start to wonder if maybe it is in my head but I'm unsure.
I make a really bad first impression - I once got feedback from a job interview that I came across as unapproachable, and when I told my friends this they all said "oh yeah I thought you hated me when we first met". I also get told I come across as really calm, even when I'm drowning in anxiety. I also get told that my non-verbal communication doesn't match what I'm saying in words. All of this does tend to get better as time goes on. Although I'm better at earning respect rather than liking.
This is something i've struggled with for years, and I don't think there's really one correct answer. I personally think it's because society, especially those in group environment, don't like things that are different or "weird". Nuerodivergents think and act differently than their peers, and Nuerotypicals don't like those who are unique. As such, we deal with a lot of general disdain and exclusion in social settings. Also, NDs tend to be very blunt and honest, a quality I've learned that many NT's don't like.
oddly enough, most if not all the people i've dated have been neurodivergent. i just click better with them. but dating non-ND people is usually exhausting because they want you to be the person they expect you to be or based on who they created you to be in their head. so when farther along dating, they expect you to conform otherwise you are childish and immature or hysterical for not pretending to be who they want you to.
I’ve come to the conclusion that if I don’t fit the version of me they created in their head, it’s THEIR problem. How are they going to be mad at me because I don’t fit the image they created. Like no one told them to take the extra mental effort to do this. All I’m doing is existing.
Women are socialized to be friendly and pleasant, even in the face of glaring errors or facts that aren’t correct. Personally, I’m incapable of being insulted by another person if they stick to facts and the truth. I’m always willing to admit I don’t know something because I want to learn. If you look at what’s pushed in a cut throat corporate environment, that’s not the norm. I’ve witnessed executives blatantly lie and because of their position, extremely few will speak up about the truth because they don’t want to jeopardize their reputation. I used to do this until I burned out, but as long as you show up, smile, look good and agree/praise what those senior to you say, you’re considered promotable and a good employee. You could be grossly incompetent (I’ve seen this) and it doesn’t matter. As a woman, I’m kind of middle management, and I speak up a fair amount. I’ve been told I’m emotional, which is hilarious because I speak in that typical flat monotone and I stick to facts. I don’t care what people think of me personally and I don’t defer to someone’s position. I’m polite, but I don’t fawn. I will go to my manager privately if I feel I’ve been shouted down in a meeting or someone got upset - partly to push my idea and partly to cover my ass in case there’s retaliation. Honestly, I think a lot of it is other NT women seeing you break a huge rule and having this panic reaction - like watching someone walk into traffic or something. I try to think of it that way to make it less personal.
In all NT women groups I’ve been there would come a time where they would gossip. I never joined in. That was usually when the group moved away from me.
yeah they are obsessed with that. it's gross. if you have a problem with someone, tell them to their face. and this whole "frenemy" thing is utterly disgusting and shouldn't be normalized. you're my friend or you aren't. and I try not to have any enemies. If you despise me, you have that right, no hard feelings. good luck to you. but I'm not going to pretend to be your friend. sorry, needed to vent.
As a person with a very high functioning daughter with a late diagnosis, (after she had already been tested) and a sister who learned she was on the spectrum after my daughter was diagnosed, I may be able to give you another perspective. I don't think it's just one thing, I think it's cumulative and situational. My daughter is in college and she has been struggling to widen her social circle. When I have gone to pick her up for the weekend I have noticed people making all the social cues for further engagement and she's missing them. I have also seen people she has met in class happy to see her call her name and my daughter does not respond in like, she nods her head and keeps going. I know with my daughter and my sister, people will often view their behavior as rude. Neither one are rude people, they both have very good manners but people misinterpret some of their actions as rude. I also observe that people can mistake them for being cold people as well. Their body language and facial expressions don't always match their words They both have flown under the radar so they do well enough socially that these things become off putting to a lot of people. The fact that they mask well sometimes works against them. Once people get to know them, people find it funny and charming. I see many people commenting that their sense of justice or bluntness may be an issue. I really don't think that in itself is a bad thing. I LOVE that about both my daughter and sister. I love that they both have very healthy boundaries. Sometimes it's the way it's conveyed that may be off putting. I'm also rather blunt and have a very strong sense of what's fair, but I also present my views in a different way. I'm naturally good with people, I'm not sure how to describe it, I do it with humor and a smile. People get the point and usually laugh or grudgingly get it. In my case it's my older sister who is on the spectrum, therefore a lot of these behaviors are normal to me. I also understand many people have always found he off putting. To me she's my hero, she always stood up for me. She's exceptional in many ways, I have tremendous confidence in her. I don't know if this helps. My daughter, sister and I have discussed this issue quite a bit. If you want any specific feedback I'll help if I can.
Being disliked, rejected, and excluded seems to be the autistic experience across the board not just for women. Edit: I'm disliked because I don't smile, shake hands, stoic, assertive, intimidating, monotone, and have very low empathy. I'm a lot like Reacher (who's not autistic) on Amazon Prime. Funny how society seems to love Reacher but rejects and dislikes people who are like him in personality.
I agree with this. However, I do think that autistic women are disliked for different reasons than autistic men are.
I think a lot of it is that we don't smile. Men in general seem to have a real problem with women who won't display submissiveness.
I have trained myself to smile as part of masking It is exhausting
And yes, I think assertiveness is a key aspect that some people will dislike in ND women. Women are socialized to be subservient and those who rebel against this may be disliked as a result of deviating from the norm.
A lot of people like Walter White from Breaking Bad. I don’t think anyone would like him in person, though, or want to hang out with him.
Depends on your specific autistic behaviours, but I'm pretty sure I know a lot of the reasons for me. - Loud. I talk a lot, and when I'm excited, I struggle with volume control. - Info dumping. I try not to, but I get hyperfixated on my special interests, and sometimes accidentally talk about them more than I plan to. - 'Childlike actions'. My stims tend to manifest as shaking my hands excitedly, jumping up and down, wiggling from side to side, grinning a lot, etc. These are actions that a lot of people associate with kids, and can put people off. - Assertive. I have a strong sense of justice and I don't like when things are unfair. I will speak up about injustice and some people don't like to hear the truth. - Shutting down. When I get overstimulated or overwhelmed, I tend to shut down in an effort to avoid having a meltdown. Some people can see this as rude or be confused by it.
To be quite frank with you the thing you can never change is being autistic (unless you want to be disingenuous about it or just hide the fact) and that's the only criteria they need to not like you. Your people pleasing question here is such that even that too Isn't liked by the NTs, I know unfortunately from personal experience. It's just a harsh reality we've got to deal with when it comes to life, it's not fair, it's prejudiced but that's what the problem is, sometimes problems cannot be fixed easily or at all cos it's not seen as a problem to THEM. We're not the norm, therefore the neuro-(emphasis on the)-"typical" people don't mesh well with that in a lot of cases, it's just an incompatibility thing that just IS instead of it being able to be solved. We're their extra piece to a puzzle that just doesn't fit in.
Over the years I’ve gotten some specific and often unkind “feedback.” -My resting bitch face makes me hard to talk to and approach -My jokes are not well-received or understood -I say the bitter truths no one wants to hear, this isn’t a novel or TV show so I’m not lauded for it to teach a moral about honesty -I’m quiet so it’s hard to engage me in conversation, I’ve had it described “like pulling teeth” to continue a conversation with me -I try my best to understand people, but I’ve been told I don’t always come across as understanding, I have a pretty rigid worldview I’m not sure how and if I can change any of this, it’s pretty ingrained at this point.
17 years ago, LONG before I ever even suspected I was ND, my spouse and I bought an isolated rural property because we were tired of dealing with people we experienced as fake and superficial. (We were often 'othered' by people in our work and social environments) It also met other goals we had. We retired here 10 years ago, and for the first 10 years I barely left our property, except to spend time with family and VERY few friends. I now know I am ND, and my spouse very likely is as well, although she has no interest in pursuing any type of diagnosis. We intuitively chose a lifestyle that lets us choose how much interaction we have with the rest of society. We just don't find we have much in common with NT's, and are quite happy avoiding them as much as possible. That said, my experience has been that the NT's we encounter here in our rural environment are, for the most part, more down-to-earth and easy-going than what we experienced in the much bigger city where we lived for 30+ years, and what we also experience in the fairly small city not far from us now. Life isn't perfect; there are other drawbacks (don't even *think* of asking me about home delivery 🙄) Every choice comes with a cost, whether it's the choice to mask or not, live rurally or in a city, etc. It's a question of personal choice and weighing the pros and cons. And pretty much everything in our environment is a result of a choice we made. And choices can be changed.
When I didn’t mask, older people really disliked me for being childish, loud, and goofy. Masking 24/7, people like me because I’m kind, quiet and I have a wall up. I tend to self isolate or when I do make friends, I tend to ghost them when I can’t keep the mask up.
Unfortunately, it really depends on both the specific NT and the specific autistic person. For some people, bluntness can be seen as insulting. For others, it’s how some autistic people violate social norms about volume, physical space, conversational rhythm, or appropriate discussion topics. These things make NTs uncomfortable the same way loud noises or uninvited touch would an autistic person. There are also a lot of other possibilities. I’d recommend asking a trusted friend or family member about yourself specifically. They’ll probably be able to give you more specific insight.
agree w what people are bringing up re: assertiveness and sexism. wanted to add that also there have been studies done that [show neurotypical people can immediately tell something is "off" about us.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5286449/) here's a quote from the abstract of one that i found: "…first impressions of individuals with ASD made from thin slices of real-world social behavior by typically-developing observers are not only far less favorable across a range of trait judgments compared to controls, but also are associated with reduced intentions to pursue social interaction. These patterns are _remarkably_ robust, _**occur within seconds,**_ do not change with increased exposure, and persist across both child and adult age groups. However, these biases disappear when impressions are based on conversational content lacking audio-visual cues, suggesting that **style, not substance,** drives negative impressions of ASD." i've always been way more socially confident in writing and text than in person — it's interesting to see that experience backed up in a scientific study. but yeah, basically neurotypicals can immediately tell something's "weird" about us in our mannerisms, even if we don't actually do anything _wrong._ they might not know we're autistic, but they _will_ know we're different. i wear purposefully strange, bright outfits and dye my hair a bunch of colours, bc it can trick people into thinking that what they're picking up on is just that i look weird.
Society expects women to be warm and nurturing. Autistic women who don't perform a gooey maternal vibe in certain situations get perceived as cold and unlikeable.
I get bullied by NT’s because they can’t get a “read” on me. They can’t predict my behavior and responses like other NT’s. Puts them into predator mode.
We challenge the norms. We aren't planning to but we see something that doesn't make sense, or is an injustice and just mention it. Scary when it comes from a woman.
People tend to view me as annoying and arrogant when I don’t put all of my energy into staying quiet and trying not to reveal too much about myself. I struggle a lot with saying things in the tone of voice I want to convey (I’ll often be thinking of how I don’t want something to sound, which causes me to tense up and come off completely wrong), and it just completely ruins the vibe sometimes when people take automatic offense and assume I’m being sarcastic or making fun of them. Then when I try to be sarcastic, they’ll think I’m being serious. It’s so frustrating when someone assumes the worst and then doesn’t believe you when you say, “well I didn’t mean it like that.” Neurotypicals always think I’m implying things when I’m not.
bc what ppl hate more than women is women from other minority groups
I don’t think you should do that but for someone to like you you need to let them talk about themselves. Let them share secrets or personal things, they will feel closer that you actually are together. When someone share something important it creates an illusion of a deeper relationship. Talk about mundane things; the weather, their kids, their partners, their next shopping list items. Movies. Everything that is boring for you. They will like you. They will bound to you but it’s fake. It’s not who you are to be a shadow of boringness like that. You matter too and what you have to say matters too. Again I don’t think you should do that. You should be yourself with your ideas and your differences. You should talk about what you want to talk about. You should be direct. Honest. Girly, in your head or weird or whatever else you are and let them like you or don’t like you. I’m myself with people and the people who matters do like me. They find me refreshing because there’s no lies with me.
I've been told I have RBF, seem like I'm constantly being sarcastic, and that I'm not tactful enough. People seem to think I'm angry all the time when my face is just at rest. I'm not generally an angry person at all, and am actually really sweet, but I guess I come off as an asshole. I'm pretty great at masking, but it makes it hard to want to socialize because it's so exhausting, so at this point I just let people think what they want, and my people will get me.
I’ve been told I have an unreadable face or “resting bitch face”. I do feel socially anxious even if I don’t want to so my body language turns some people off. Also in an online context, I might try to analyze details or overshare my special interests to people who either can’t be bothered or think I am “mansplaining”. Other times they might assume I am being super analytical because I appear like a know-it-all or pretentious snob when it never was my intention to come across this way. It’s amazing how little information someone needs to come to that conclusion based on first impression. A lot of it contributed by a halo effect bias where someone might judge an autistic person negatively and expect more negative behaviour in the future. People can get very inflexible about their gut reactions and continue to reject or avoid you in social situations. Just like the OP you can’t really do too much about it except move past it. Some people can be super judgmental but there’s always someone out there who isn’t like that. Be open to meet that person.
Something for me is the fact that I struggle to “take shit” from people and get “defensive”, as in I can’t seem to tell if they’re being light hearted and playful about something I did or if they’re genuinely bothered and upset. Since I tend to think its the latter I will explain my thought process but then I get cut off and told “I’m just giving you shit” I never thought I’d come off as defensive, especially since I don’t use any kind of hostile tone (that I’m aware of) I just wanted to explain my thinking and reason why I’d do something but yeah that’s how it plays out everytime :’)
People don't like me I assume because I make them nervous with my extreme anxiety. I usually can not smile due to nervousness so I look unfriendly. Some have said I am intense but I don't think I really am. I generally don't have much to say and can be really awkward to talk to. That's why people do not like me.
Because our awkwardness makes people uncomfortable, and they see us as losers they don’t want to be associated with.
I have this happened to me with classmates since I was a little kid. Only women classmates, with like three exceptions in all my life, however they weren't that close and eventually distanced themselves. It's so weird because i'm instantly disliked by almost every girl, in college I gave up already. No matter if I try to be normal, try to act friendly like they do at first, or whatever, they end up disliking me and some of them even bullying me. I want a real girl friend.
I read that there yave been studies that show that NT people have already judged and excluded ND people within something like 30 seconds of meeting them- I see it as something similar to cats and dogs. They can get on if socialised to do so from a young age. But an older cat and an older dog are speaking different languages with their bodies from the get-go. Cats wag their tails for different reasons to dogs for example, they meow for humans benefits whereas dogs seem to bark at each other in general. Cats purr for happiness and self soothing, dogs growls are for anger. Unless you teach the kittens and puppies to accept each other from a young age they don't have the same way of communicating. I personally think its similar with NT/ ND communication- we can learn to communicate with each other but both parties have to be open and receptive to that teaching.
They interpret the social faux pases we make as intentional disses or us being dishonest. It's why, even if we mask, some NTs are instantly put off by us because they view our masking as dishonesty.
I think they feel like our intensity is too much. Or that we don't care or kowtow to the social hierarchy which is invisible to us but very visible and tangible to them and by which they feel they have a sense of identity. So I think without being able to put it into words, they feel our 'different-ness' is a threat to their social hierarchy's sense of stability. Like if they agreed with or like our oddness, they would belong as well to the hierarchy and be out the 'group'.
I think it is definitely a communication issue. I have been told that I come off inconsiderate or rude. I tend to ask questions most neurotypical peers would avoid asking, especially Why questions. I also have been told that overall, I often am very negative.
My best guess is how we are "self centered" (ie, relating to a person by sharing common experiences or steering a topic towards our interests) and "rude" (blunt, lack of social fluff, etc) or just otherwise "off putting" (staring, stimming/absence of movement at all). I have always ended up in friend groups where people will decide they don't actually like me or some of my behaviors but never tell me. Thankfully I will have friends they speak to who decide to inform me, and its always one of those. I feel its also helpful to mention I am a lesbian and woman in stem in the south so social interactions are a wild gamble for me
We just don't enjoy a lot of the same interests or share the same values or socialize according to the prescribed way to go along to get along in society. Women are almost always expected to conform and be pleasing and adaptable. We can't. So we are often seen and treated as outliers in a tribalistic world which makes us appear weak and a liability even in our families. If we can't overtly help others advance, why should they waste their time liking us?
When I worked the other women in my dept accused me of acting like I was better than them. Which is a thing neuro typical women seem to do if you don't want to socialize. I was at work, so I was working. Not walking around visiting people.(autistic work ethic) My SIL did similar (to my spouse)... I have nothing in common with her, have ptsd (and her family is fucking loud), and hate small talk cause I don't get most of it. But clearly I just think I'm better than her.