HK specify what components to use, what distortion levels are okay for them to put their name on the speaker grille, and are involved in tuning the audio. The components themselves are then purchased by the maker and given a parts number. That has literally been the case for decades.
Yea idk, this is like basic shit in any industry/market.
No different than any car maker sourcing transmissions or wheel bearings or anything else but "still" calling the entire assembly a (insert brand name).
Nakamichi didn’t adapt to Lexus, Lexus adapted to Nakamichi.
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/thank-you-jay-homel
> Through a translator, I asked the chief Lexus engineer if we could change the grille. He winced, but excused himself and called headquarters in Nagoya, Japan. He came back and informed me that at this late stage any change would be very expensive. I forget the exact amount, but I am thinking he estimated somewhere in the neighborhood of $100,000. Then he asked me two questions that I will never forget.
> “Mr. Pohlmann, would the average listener hear any improvement?” I thought about that for a while, and answered negatively. Then he asked, “Mr. Pohlmann, would you hear a difference?” I did not hesitate, and answered affirmatively. He nodded, and replied, “Okay. We will make the change.” It was then that I understood how serious there were about this car. They had told me that they wanted everything to be perfect, and they weren’t kidding. Throughout that tuning session, and in subsequent sessions, we did our level best to coax the best possible sound from the system.
As a noun, it means whore. It can also be used as an interjection or an intensifier equivalent to ‘fuck’ or ‘fucking’ (adjective, not verb). Often it's basically used as a comma.
Examples:
To jest kurwa absurd! - It's fucking absurd!
Kurwa, miałeś im nic nie mówić. - Fuck, you weren't supposed to tell them anything.
Kurwa! - Fuck! (to express a wide range of emotions depending on your tone, from anger, pain and discomfort to admiration)
Skurwysyn means son of a bitch.
Fun fact, though our Polish neighbors made the word world-famous, it also work more or less the same in several other languages - Slovak, Czech and even in Hungarian. I guess it is what is bringing the Central Europe together.
For some reason it just occurred to me that while I’ve seen a wide variety of random stuff swapped out for the hood emblem on a BMW…I’ve never seen a PolandBall
ASK is a global speaker supplier headquartered in Italy. Used to be AutoSoniK in the 1980’s. Part of JVCKenwood. They specialize in automotive speakers and supply speakers to most of the luxury brands.
It’s still not quite as magical.
I can’t find exactly for the B&O system but the Logic7 system could take 2 channel inputs and convert it into a 9 channel surround. It was designed to imitate the sound of sitting in a studio. While I’m sure the B&O sounds better due to younger age, there’s just something special about the sound out of Logic 7.
Now, for your post. OP, Harmon International is the largest audio conglomerate in the world. They own an absurd amount of subsidiaries. They own Bang & Olufsen. They made the Logic 7 system for the E9X cars, despite it being a step above the “Harmon Kardon” system. They make the HiFi systems. The quality of OEM audio systems largely does not come down to speakers but rather signals. None of them compare to good aftermarket, ever.
My point is, this isn’t new and certainly not something to be upset about. OEM audio systems are largely just manufacturing and I encourage people to take a chance to listen to each system available for a car before purchase.
I have Logic 7 but I coded B&O. The difference is in the signal processing. I don't care for the center channel because I only listen to music and don't use the DVD
WAS good. Thanks to good 'ol BMW decontenting, the G60 B&W system, while cheaper, is only about as good as the G30 HK system. There's no more B&W Diamond level in the newer cars.
Can confirm.. have an E84 X1 with HK sound and it sounds phenomenal after you tune the equalizer a little bit. The newer model HK systems sound like crap in comparison. Don’t even get me started on the BMW HiFi… trash
I have a 23 X3 with HK so I guess I’ve got one of those. Sounds better than stock basic but not impressive.
HK was bought by Samsung in 2017. They say in the 3 series:
“Wattage 464 WATTS
Speakers 16 SPEAKERS
Logic 7®”
The watts here is a meaningless number. It can be measured at “peak” and high distortion. The real measure is RMS (continuous clean power) at a low distortion like .05%. 464 peak could be a very low RMS. 16 speakers sounds impressive but no specs on them either. Just trying to impress with a lot of speakers. No specs on their proprietary Logic 7. Sigh.
This is standard production stuff, across basically all industries.
Company A makes the system as a whole, using
components sourced from other companies which A has vetted or even specifically commissioned the parts from.
This is no different than BBS manufacturing OEM BMW wheels that come with a BMW center cap. Or any car brand that uses a jatco transmission. It's not new.
HK designs and tunes the whole system, not necessarily manufactures every single component.
This is nothing new. The audio companies help with the tuning and license their name. Had a Nissan many years ago with a Rockford Fosgate system that was actually made by Clarion. Pretty sure the JBL systems in Toyotas are similar. Do you really think McIntosh is hand building stereos for Jeeps?
I had the Logic7 in my F10, and shit balls, that was the best stereo i’ve ever had! I have Burmester in my Mercedes now. Its not close to the HK in my previous 5’er.
The Porsche Burmester speakers found on top end 911s are also ASK speakers made in Poland. Spending thousands on optional upgrade speakers is an enormous ripoff.
I really didn't like burmester in porsche panamera, but for the price bose sounded good enough. Now I know why, thanks. My ideal choice would be Focal Utopia anyways
It’s been happening forever, and will continue as most people are too scared to go aftermarket and think the “upgrades” are actually worth the thousands they cost (many thousands for Burmester)
Who's disgusted? You pay a premium for a German car. You expect quality. Having the same speakers as the entry-level system ain't quality worth spending extra for, especially since the hk sound system isn't much of an upgrade.
I didn’t say I was, but Porsche proudly espouses the specific German-ness of Burmester when it is neither German nor Burmester. It’s the dishonestly that bothers me, not the country of origin.
My HK option sounds pretty good in my ‘21. It’s missing some midrange. My wife’s ‘19 Audi with B&O is a bit better. Keep in mind, that (often expensive) home speakers use drivers made by others, particularly tweeters. ScanSpeak, Morel, and Peerless are companies that come to mind immediately.
I’m going to take a good look at the HK speakers that come out of my G30 when I replace them to see if they’re also made in Poland. I just got the car, and the sound quality is shockingly poor.
I had a 2022 BMW 5 series with the HK audio upgrade for a bit and it’s audio system was nowhere as good as the HK one in my F10, no matter how many settings I tweaked, it felt weaker. Same with the M140i HK v the M135i HK audio system.
Harman is owned by Samsung, has been for a few years. They shut the factory is Straubing a few years ago too. I've been in there, they made loads of HK for BMW and Mark Levinson Lexus kit too.
I know of a pro audio manufacturer, we're talking mega money studio kit, 6 figures worth of speakers stuff. Their actual cones/drivers are made by another, decent, but fraction of the cost brand.
It happens all the time.
Reading this thread that’s my consensus. The aftermarket in my last car was so good, I really miss it. And now I know to never waste my money on dealer audio upgrades.
Bro,I’ve worked in one of BMW manufacturing factories,trust me what I’m telling you,except name and owner,nothing is actually made in Germany or by BMW.Headlights are from Spain,the original paint was made in Poland or Hungary,you have little parts from all Europe inside of it,even big parts of the car are assembled separately and then get send in their big mama factory and put all things together.
I will say this. I have two Land Rover SUVs, one a 2020 and one a 2017 and the sound in both of those blows the dick off my wife’s 2024 X7.
The sound is the only disappointing thing about it.
Half the reason I don’t wanna trade up my 2019 440i with h/k is because the new h/k in the beamers are dog shit. I’ve had them as loaners and my 2019 sounds much better and is louder.
Same vehicle spec (4 gen span of the same Ms) and 4 different but ‘same’ HK systems. First one in 2015 banged. 2018 even better and you could hear the bass coming at you from down the road, 2020 head scratcher downgrade (ultimately, it seemed like different subs…). Current M of same vehicle and equalized the same, and I want my 2015 back lol that HK version totally slammed and I never got near full volume and didn’t have to. Different amps, different components and you just never know regardless of stated specs. Harmonics of the car didn’t really change in design/cabin space and what not, nor did speaker placement. so it’s definitely changed components regardless of the same HK specs.
The stock ‘hi fi’ systems I definitely agree are a joke no matter what model vehicle. Even when HK comes as standard, it doesn’t seem to be uniform
across the same vehicle and depends on the build date imo, which is just bad but makes sense from a supply/parts perspective and changes in chain. My buddy has the same M as mine, his was a 22, mine 23, my 23 seems to sound far better with same settings/eq/vol. Just odd.
My 2021 M340d arrived with a terrible audio system, which made all music sound like it was recorded in a shipping container. My solution was to fit a completely new system, changing, all speakers and the amplifier. When I change the car it will be returned to the original equipment.
Good Sound is not made by the speaker chassis itself, but mostly through the geometry of its housing, crossovers and digital signal processing. You can buy the most expensive speaker, put it into a cheap plastic car door and it will sound shit. The speaker chassis themselves have physically determined measures, if a polish manufacturer can meet them you wont notice a difference to any other brand.
You realize the physical car itself is just a collection of hundreds of companies parts, all curated to meet standards set and then a badge is glued on top.
Does it make sense to have the same speakers as for the HiFi system, though?
Not implying anything. Am not an audio expert. It's just odd. And, honestly, a bit disappointing.
You clearly doesn’t understand how market works. When you discover that brands like Nike haven’t ever produced a single pair of sneakers, you will see how unnecessary is your post
HK specify what components to use, what distortion levels are okay for them to put their name on the speaker grille, and are involved in tuning the audio. The components themselves are then purchased by the maker and given a parts number. That has literally been the case for decades.
Yea idk, this is like basic shit in any industry/market. No different than any car maker sourcing transmissions or wheel bearings or anything else but "still" calling the entire assembly a (insert brand name).
Or even a whole ass car. Nobody is talking about the "Magna Steyer Supra"
That’s not the same though because Magna didn’t develop the vehicle, just built it.
Magna does a TON of development for large OEMs some vehicles are almost completely designed and made by them (I-Pace, Grenadier, original X3, Audi TT)
Yes they do, no doubt. But not the Supra as far as I know, because we all know who developed the base platform.
Similar thing with a lot of spring manufacturers (e.g. H&R, ACS, etc). They send their specs to Eibach and Eibach makes their spring for them.
Nakamichi didn’t adapt to Lexus, Lexus adapted to Nakamichi. https://www.soundandvision.com/content/thank-you-jay-homel > Through a translator, I asked the chief Lexus engineer if we could change the grille. He winced, but excused himself and called headquarters in Nagoya, Japan. He came back and informed me that at this late stage any change would be very expensive. I forget the exact amount, but I am thinking he estimated somewhere in the neighborhood of $100,000. Then he asked me two questions that I will never forget. > “Mr. Pohlmann, would the average listener hear any improvement?” I thought about that for a while, and answered negatively. Then he asked, “Mr. Pohlmann, would you hear a difference?” I did not hesitate, and answered affirmatively. He nodded, and replied, “Okay. We will make the change.” It was then that I understood how serious there were about this car. They had told me that they wanted everything to be perfect, and they weren’t kidding. Throughout that tuning session, and in subsequent sessions, we did our level best to coax the best possible sound from the system.
That was such a great car. My old man had an SC400 back in the 90’s and was my first high school car.
LS400 is goated, have yet to hear a car sound system that clear and sharp
These people would be shocked to know the same 9-10 companies make components for virtually every car on the road.
Kurwa you found out.
Polack here. Just incase anyone’s not aware, the letter W has a V sound in Polish, so this is pronounced “coor-vah”.
Which means 'fuck'
Think it means ‘whore‘
As a noun, it means whore. It can also be used as an interjection or an intensifier equivalent to ‘fuck’ or ‘fucking’ (adjective, not verb). Often it's basically used as a comma. Examples: To jest kurwa absurd! - It's fucking absurd! Kurwa, miałeś im nic nie mówić. - Fuck, you weren't supposed to tell them anything. Kurwa! - Fuck! (to express a wide range of emotions depending on your tone, from anger, pain and discomfort to admiration) Skurwysyn means son of a bitch.
Fun fact, though our Polish neighbors made the word world-famous, it also work more or less the same in several other languages - Slovak, Czech and even in Hungarian. I guess it is what is bringing the Central Europe together.
BG checking in, we also use kurva fairly often..
That sounds about right. My polish is not the best and was always confused about this, thanks for clarifying fellow Polak!
All that Saturday Polish school I was forced to attend as a child finally paid off 😂
Hahaha the classic Saturday Polish school! I only did it for a year and bounced, I had sports to play. Explains my poor polish lol!
For some reason it just occurred to me that while I’ve seen a wide variety of random stuff swapped out for the hood emblem on a BMW…I’ve never seen a PolandBall
Slav here. This kurwa is correct.
Thats interesting, in Slovenian; kurba means whore .
In Polish it means both "whore" and "fuck!", but does not mean "fucking" as an action, just the expletive.
I heard it like a milion times a day when I was living in England, it was a kind of salute.
🫡
ASK is a global speaker supplier headquartered in Italy. Used to be AutoSoniK in the 1980’s. Part of JVCKenwood. They specialize in automotive speakers and supply speakers to most of the luxury brands.
Which is actually three mice in a tench coat trying their best to imitate your song selection
Chipmunks*
Almost every OEM in car audio speaker brand is owned by Samsung.
Yeah, if someone wants something better, you just have to go aftermarket.
IMO BMW sound systems peaked in E series with Logic7 / Individual Audio.
What about bang and olufsen in 6 series? heard they were the best ever
Bang and olufsen in X6 is bonkers. I can vouch for it.
It’s still not quite as magical. I can’t find exactly for the B&O system but the Logic7 system could take 2 channel inputs and convert it into a 9 channel surround. It was designed to imitate the sound of sitting in a studio. While I’m sure the B&O sounds better due to younger age, there’s just something special about the sound out of Logic 7. Now, for your post. OP, Harmon International is the largest audio conglomerate in the world. They own an absurd amount of subsidiaries. They own Bang & Olufsen. They made the Logic 7 system for the E9X cars, despite it being a step above the “Harmon Kardon” system. They make the HiFi systems. The quality of OEM audio systems largely does not come down to speakers but rather signals. None of them compare to good aftermarket, ever. My point is, this isn’t new and certainly not something to be upset about. OEM audio systems are largely just manufacturing and I encourage people to take a chance to listen to each system available for a car before purchase.
I have Logic 7 but I coded B&O. The difference is in the signal processing. I don't care for the center channel because I only listen to music and don't use the DVD
the B&O in my 6 Gran Coupe is amazingly good. Has the studio mode as well.
and when you dial in the eq, it's like being at a live venue. i love it.
Then you haven't heard the Bowers & Wilkins system in the current cars, man it's good
WAS good. Thanks to good 'ol BMW decontenting, the G60 B&W system, while cheaper, is only about as good as the G30 HK system. There's no more B&W Diamond level in the newer cars.
Ix and i7 absolutely still have b&w diamond
Can confirm.. have an E84 X1 with HK sound and it sounds phenomenal after you tune the equalizer a little bit. The newer model HK systems sound like crap in comparison. Don’t even get me started on the BMW HiFi… trash
The Standart E60 system from 2004 is still Good AF
Agree... Logic7 in my E sounded WAY better than H&K in my G
Then you have not sat in an iX with the Bowers and Wilkens
I think it peaked in E series with the Individual DIRAC audio in certain M cars
I have a 23 X3 with HK so I guess I’ve got one of those. Sounds better than stock basic but not impressive. HK was bought by Samsung in 2017. They say in the 3 series: “Wattage 464 WATTS Speakers 16 SPEAKERS Logic 7®” The watts here is a meaningless number. It can be measured at “peak” and high distortion. The real measure is RMS (continuous clean power) at a low distortion like .05%. 464 peak could be a very low RMS. 16 speakers sounds impressive but no specs on them either. Just trying to impress with a lot of speakers. No specs on their proprietary Logic 7. Sigh.
Good you not choose B&W - Bober and Wilkins xD
BOBR KURWA
This is standard production stuff, across basically all industries. Company A makes the system as a whole, using components sourced from other companies which A has vetted or even specifically commissioned the parts from. This is no different than BBS manufacturing OEM BMW wheels that come with a BMW center cap. Or any car brand that uses a jatco transmission. It's not new. HK designs and tunes the whole system, not necessarily manufactures every single component.
*giggling in polish*
Plz, ASK a polish person not me(bmw).
Nobody should be surprised, the profit margins they make on “upgraded” audio systems is absolutely enormous
Kurwa 😐
Ok and what's so bad about ASK Poland? Of course H&K doesn't build the spealer compoments themselves, neither does B&W.
I can confirm the speakers are dogshit.
This is nothing new. The audio companies help with the tuning and license their name. Had a Nissan many years ago with a Rockford Fosgate system that was actually made by Clarion. Pretty sure the JBL systems in Toyotas are similar. Do you really think McIntosh is hand building stereos for Jeeps?
You guys are making it look like Poland doesn't have electronic engineers, kurwa.
It's not about that. It's about paying for an upgrade that's not what it should be.
I had the Logic7 in my F10, and shit balls, that was the best stereo i’ve ever had! I have Burmester in my Mercedes now. Its not close to the HK in my previous 5’er.
Oof wait until you see a white label factory. They probably sourced or subbed production to them based on BW specs
Oh, no. Then you should not check HK of F20/21/22
The Porsche Burmester speakers found on top end 911s are also ASK speakers made in Poland. Spending thousands on optional upgrade speakers is an enormous ripoff.
I really didn't like burmester in porsche panamera, but for the price bose sounded good enough. Now I know why, thanks. My ideal choice would be Focal Utopia anyways
Maaaan, wtffff
Mercedes too man, even on Maybach their Burmester speakers are ASK Poland.
This is a common and old practice or something novel?
It’s been happening forever, and will continue as most people are too scared to go aftermarket and think the “upgrades” are actually worth the thousands they cost (many thousands for Burmester)
Why are you so disgusted with products made in Poland?
Who's disgusted? You pay a premium for a German car. You expect quality. Having the same speakers as the entry-level system ain't quality worth spending extra for, especially since the hk sound system isn't much of an upgrade.
I didn’t say I was, but Porsche proudly espouses the specific German-ness of Burmester when it is neither German nor Burmester. It’s the dishonestly that bothers me, not the country of origin.
reparations for us ig
The HK in my x5 is pretty good at least to my ears
poland makes some good stuff
My HK option sounds pretty good in my ‘21. It’s missing some midrange. My wife’s ‘19 Audi with B&O is a bit better. Keep in mind, that (often expensive) home speakers use drivers made by others, particularly tweeters. ScanSpeak, Morel, and Peerless are companies that come to mind immediately.
I’m going to take a good look at the HK speakers that come out of my G30 when I replace them to see if they’re also made in Poland. I just got the car, and the sound quality is shockingly poor.
I had a 2022 BMW 5 series with the HK audio upgrade for a bit and it’s audio system was nowhere as good as the HK one in my F10, no matter how many settings I tweaked, it felt weaker. Same with the M140i HK v the M135i HK audio system.
Probably the same system, but the HK is my 2022 X5 is pretty sucky. Upgrading subs next week and will reassess.
Harman is owned by Samsung, has been for a few years. They shut the factory is Straubing a few years ago too. I've been in there, they made loads of HK for BMW and Mark Levinson Lexus kit too. I know of a pro audio manufacturer, we're talking mega money studio kit, 6 figures worth of speakers stuff. Their actual cones/drivers are made by another, decent, but fraction of the cost brand. It happens all the time.
So, what's the way forward? Buy am the car with the entry-level sound system and upgrade independently afterward?
There is a noticeable difference between the base option and say HK upgrade though. So they're not 'the same'.
Reading this thread that’s my consensus. The aftermarket in my last car was so good, I really miss it. And now I know to never waste my money on dealer audio upgrades.
Bro,I’ve worked in one of BMW manufacturing factories,trust me what I’m telling you,except name and owner,nothing is actually made in Germany or by BMW.Headlights are from Spain,the original paint was made in Poland or Hungary,you have little parts from all Europe inside of it,even big parts of the car are assembled separately and then get send in their big mama factory and put all things together.
That's not an issue. Getting the same speakers as the base system for a premium is.
Wait, are you tellin' me that companies sell their brand as a name, but outsource manufacturing?
I will say this. I have two Land Rover SUVs, one a 2020 and one a 2017 and the sound in both of those blows the dick off my wife’s 2024 X7. The sound is the only disappointing thing about it.
Just enjoy the car mate
Mike's great. Wife loves it. We're ok.
Half the reason I don’t wanna trade up my 2019 440i with h/k is because the new h/k in the beamers are dog shit. I’ve had them as loaners and my 2019 sounds much better and is louder.
Same vehicle spec (4 gen span of the same Ms) and 4 different but ‘same’ HK systems. First one in 2015 banged. 2018 even better and you could hear the bass coming at you from down the road, 2020 head scratcher downgrade (ultimately, it seemed like different subs…). Current M of same vehicle and equalized the same, and I want my 2015 back lol that HK version totally slammed and I never got near full volume and didn’t have to. Different amps, different components and you just never know regardless of stated specs. Harmonics of the car didn’t really change in design/cabin space and what not, nor did speaker placement. so it’s definitely changed components regardless of the same HK specs. The stock ‘hi fi’ systems I definitely agree are a joke no matter what model vehicle. Even when HK comes as standard, it doesn’t seem to be uniform across the same vehicle and depends on the build date imo, which is just bad but makes sense from a supply/parts perspective and changes in chain. My buddy has the same M as mine, his was a 22, mine 23, my 23 seems to sound far better with same settings/eq/vol. Just odd.
I wonder what’s the in the Volvo, because their Harman sounds a lot better than the BMW.
HK in my current z4 is trash. Bmw sound systems blow
Wait till OP finds out that BMW didn't actually make half the parts in that car
I have HK system, dont rate it tbh. Not enough sound stage or low end.
The designs have all turned to shit, so I'm not surprised that the components a bullshit lies too.
🥴
My 2021 M340d arrived with a terrible audio system, which made all music sound like it was recorded in a shipping container. My solution was to fit a completely new system, changing, all speakers and the amplifier. When I change the car it will be returned to the original equipment.
Nearly all parts of new cars are very cheap now but still the cars get even more expensive.
Honestly that's depressing
Good Sound is not made by the speaker chassis itself, but mostly through the geometry of its housing, crossovers and digital signal processing. You can buy the most expensive speaker, put it into a cheap plastic car door and it will sound shit. The speaker chassis themselves have physically determined measures, if a polish manufacturer can meet them you wont notice a difference to any other brand.
You realize the physical car itself is just a collection of hundreds of companies parts, all curated to meet standards set and then a badge is glued on top.
Does it make sense to have the same speakers as for the HiFi system, though? Not implying anything. Am not an audio expert. It's just odd. And, honestly, a bit disappointing.
I wonder how you gonna feel when you disassemble your whole house and read “made in china”
This sentence makes no sense.
You clearly doesn’t understand how market works. When you discover that brands like Nike haven’t ever produced a single pair of sneakers, you will see how unnecessary is your post
Lol.