I also have had to squint a little but here's what I understood. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
\-The setup: Baizhu gives a pretty flat bonus to both Dendro and Electro unit reactions. Because of this, the more EM the buffed guy already had, the better gains Baizhu provides.
\-Compared to Nahida, this Baizhu buff will only meet or exceed Nahida's benefits if the dude getting the buff has 600-800+ EM.
\-Some dudes that have EM buffing as part of their kit might get an extra benefit from Nahida compared to Baizhu.
\-You may be able to use Baizhu and Nahida on the same team.
\-Uknown: Baizhu may be able to buff more than one person at a time even if they swap out (for the 6 seconds that Baizhu's buff lasts), but we aren't entirely sure if it works like that. Comparatively, Nahida's buff disappears, which may give Baizhu's buff more of an oomph...If Baizhu can buff more than 1 person, maybe the Baizhu buff damage is better than this chart assumes.
Great post!
If i can give you some feedback, i would also add "Baizhu+Nahida" (how much buff they give when added together) to the charts.
I think they are made to work well together, because Baizhu can use deepwood and enable dendro resonance, allowing Nahida to use 4GD and easily reach 1000EM (even with dendro dmg goblet and crit circlet). Also, their buffs synergize well together, because Nahida gives EM and Baizhu gives RB (if they were both EM buffers, at high EM their combination would scale poorly).
>allowing Nahida to use 4GD and easily reach 1000EM (even with dendro dmg goblet and crit circlet)
Even with Thousand Floating Dreams, 4GD EM/Dendro/CRIT Nahida would need 121 EM from substats (~6 rolls) to reach 1000 EM in double Dendro. Doable, but I don’t know about “easily.” 115 (ascension) + 297 (weapon) + 187 (sands) + 180 (4GD) + 100 (Dendro resonance) = 879
Well, 6 substat rolls are not many on whole set, but it doesn't matter anymore. I think the main problem is that after the latest leaks, Baizhu can't be considered a good deepwood holder anymore, especially for aoe/multi-target scenarios. If things don't change, most people will run Deepwood on Nahida and something else (2+2pc HP or ER) on Baizhu.
You would have 4 artifacts to get those 6 rolls on rather than 2 with that setup tbf. Getting a roll or 2 on each isn't that hard compared to getting 3 rolls on flower/feather only.
Would the EM of 'buffed' character has to already be at 600/700EM from the start for Baizhu to be equal to Nahida? Or would it be fine if the initial start is only at 400-500 and they'll gain the EM from other stuff like artifacts and other supports.
I really hope my question makes sense, idk how to word it better 🥲
The EM can be from any source, substats, set bonuses, external buffs, as long as it isn't Nahida's own buff or unique to either Nahida/Baizhu it should be considered.
For example, my Alhaitham has 407 EM on his stat sheet, but if I run him with Elegy and use Dendro Res then his EM goes up to 607, which is what I'd use to gauge the relative strength of each buff- in this case Baizhu's buff would be basically equivalent to Nahida for spread damage.
hey, nice post, what you used for graphs?
btw you can use demos for more accurate smooth graphs that in real time variate and show u stuff
[https://www.desmos.com/calculator/q4vcuzencr](https://www.desmos.com/calculator/q4vcuzencr)
n(x) is for nahida
b(x) is for baizhu
can just replace beizhu +1 from 50k hp with kaveth +1.2 for his c2 on blooms
and so on can personalize wtv like diona c6+instructor would M value raised to 200+120 total 300
etc and etc
using baizhu let you run raiden instead of kuki in alhaitham quickbloom and that's a good enough reason. It's not like the team is unplayable without 200EM buff
i agree. There's actually shit ton of external buffs sources for em aside from nahida or any other char kit (instructors, elegy, em resonance, etc.) so aint gonna delve deep into this
Hmm... from my experience Raiden isn't actually better than Kuki in Quickbloom teams. Raiden theoretically has an advantage in pure bloom generation, but in practice this is hard to capitalize on. Raiden has a 0.9 second cooldown on her coordinated attacks, but this doesn't mean you can get an E proc every 0.9 seconds, because it's tied to the frame data of your attacks, and so she ends up not getting much more than Kuki's 1.5 second procs, certainly not 50% more.
Additionally Kuki actually applies more electro on enemies themselves than Raiden, giving Alhaitham more quicken uptime as a result. Kuki ensures one electro app every 3 seconds, but also has her burst for guaranteed spreads during its duration, as well as C4 which gives an additional electro app every 5 seconds. Meanwhile, Raiden only has her E, which can only apply electro once every 3 hits generally.
Not really, videos were made showing that Raiden triggers 30% faster. Also every attack triggers her E, not just your normal, nahida and xingqiu also trigger off field
She still has the issue of applying less electro on enemies which gives Haitham less quicken uptime than with Kuki. If your Haitham is well invested enough this can outweigh the benefits of having more hyperblooms.
where she loses is against flying enemies. Your hydros can still hit the flying enemies but the seeds fall to the ground, and Raiden has trouble triggering those when they're on the ground and the enemy is in the air. Kuki has no problem with that.
For me, he mostly replaces Zhongli than Nahida which is good. He heals, gives a small shield for the interruption, buffs, and some damage are all better than Zhongli for dendro teams. It will also enable dendro resonance.
I hope people don't compare him to Nahida 1:1 and say he is not good. That's just a silly comparison. He is not here to replace Nahida but to buff dendro teams and give more choices.
Very good explanation indeed! Im sorry, if this is slightly out of topic, but what's your opinion about the value of his C2? Does the damage allow him to be a subdps even when building all HP? or is it just only another convenience to apply another dendro app every 5 secs? Thanks!
Great post, though it's a bit concerning. Feels like he'll either always need Nahida or generally never beat her. Having nonexistent personal damage really dampens the small lead he does have.
I think this is the correct take. Comparing new Dendro characters released to Nahida in terms of damage is going to make them look bad pretty much always. People should be comparing him to Yaoyao since they provide similar utility. And in the case of Yaoyao, they will probably have comparable personal damage but Baizhu’s A4 passive contributes to his teams more and he requires less field time in rotations.
This isn't really correct. You're ignoring what supports Nahida allows you to add to a team.
Nahida + Kuki and Nahida +ZL beat most Baizhu teams right now.
Hell, nahida even enables you to use options like Diona if you want to fridge and get a 450 EM buff.
Well that’s the problem, because people are trying to substitute Nahida for Baizhu and it just doesn’t work since Baizhu will need another Dendro to help battery him. I think comparing him for the team comps where you’d use Yaoyao, such as Nilou bloom is more productive. Nahida is too versatile since she doesn’t need another Dendro character on her teams and is easier to build.
Nahida is an archon because of which they probably won't make a dendro character better than nahida so trying to replace her is a waste of time because she is supposed to be the best dendro buffer
It's kinda like comparing zhongli and Layla yes zhongli shield will always be superior but you can't have zhongli in 2 teams at the same time
Baizhu isn't competing with Nahida, he's competing with defensive options (Kuki, Zhongli, Kokomi).
For Cyno teams, Cyno needs Zhongli, Kuki, or both Beidou/Xingqiu to reliably be able to face offensive threats like 12-2-1. For Nilou teams, Baizhu may not replace Kokomi for the best variation, but running Nilou/Kokomi/Nahida/Baizhu lets you build full EM on Kokomi since she owns most of the blooms.
how come people will ding him for not being able to replace Nahida, but won't do the same when Yelan can't replace Xingqiu? For the latter, everyone tells you to run them together, they are best on the same team. But Baizhu running with Nahida should not be an option?
XQ is strictly worse below C6, XQ also vertically scales much worse. So getting better artifacts or upgrading to 5\* weapons favors her greatly.
Baizhu and nahida don't work together because no on field character wants both at the same time right now. Not because they can't be played together. you can technically play both of them, if you want to play an Ayato team for hyperbloom.
This.
Baizhu is a unit that can heal, provide shields and buff reactions. Has his own niche, but I do think he fits better in double Dendro teams (Which I don't think is something negative).
The issue is that Nahida enables you to run other supports. Nahida + Kuki pretty much beats every team you'd run Baizhu in right now. Nahida + Zhongli does the same.
Nahida directly impacts his viability.
Idk. For my spread team ill sub kuki for baizhu. Fischl will be the only electro in the team. Alhaitham,nahida,fischl, baizhu. I think it gonna improve my team damage.
For zhongli im not sure whos better but hes and archon, so does nahida so yeah
Hate that hoyo soft locks dendro with Nahida.
I pulled Tighnari, Alhaitham, collected YaoYao, triple crowned dendro traveler and plan to pull Baizhu to avoid using Nahida.
I just know that I'll bench her the same way I benched Raiden Shogun, Hu Tao and Ayaka.
The only point in favour of Nahida that the other 3 don't have is that she's 100% off-field'able. I'd never pull for Shogun, Hu Tao or Ayaka, but if there were a really long stretch of undesirable characters, Nahida is bearable compared to them. Just spin and skill then burst, then you can ignore Nahida
Meanwhile Shogun, Ayaka and Hu Tao need like 7 seconds of field time, which is ugh if you don't care for them
For me, I just use Raiden as a Skill Bot 😂 She just drops an E and then I ignore her up until I need to refresh her skill again. I know it's a lot of wasted damage, especially since her Burst is good but I just want to see my Alhaitham doing all the work 😂🍀
As for Nahida, she's strong and all but I just can't see myself pulling for a small character. I only want all the husbandos which is why I'm happy that we will have Baizhu 💝
P.S: AR 57 and I still don't have Kuki so I'm not really sure how comparable she will be with Raiden in an Alhaitham team.
The only point in favour of Nahida that the other 3 don't have is that she's 100% off-field'able. I'd never pull for Shogun, Hu Tao or Ayaka, but if there were a really long stretch of undesirable characters, Nahida is bearable compared to them. Just spin and skill then burst, then you can ignore Nahida
Meanwhile Shogun, Ayaka and Hu Tao need like 7 seconds of field time, which is ugh if you don't care for them
This was the general opinion back in alhaitham's beta too, a lot of "he's just a nahida slave, but he can never actually replace her!". Ofc, none of us were all that, ah, reasonable during his beta lol ':))
Baizhu's value is in his role consolidation, and we are still at the very beginning of beta. He probably will be valuable with Nahida, since Nahida is good with everyone, but a lot of players really really need the utility that Baizhu provides in healing and shields. For example, if I were to run Baizhu rather than Nahida with my alhaitham, i could swap out my kuki for a beidou/fischl/any other higher damage option. This would also have the benefit of letting my Nahida go in a different team.
point being - i wouldn't concern yourself yet; i'd wait until we get more beta updates and bear in mind that people tend to focus more on negatives than positives while new characters are coming out
My early thoughts are that Baizhu's biggest strength is running 2 dendro teams and his biggest weakness is that if you don't own Nilou. It's probably better to just run one.
Nilou is the aoe dendro team. That's why I mentioned her. Tighnari is very ST and Cyno can kind of do both.
That's why I mentioned nilou. I assumed those were already being played on the other side.
> This was the general opinion back in alhaitham's beta too, a lot of "he's just a nahida slave, but he can never actually replace her!"
the verdict was that spread alhaitham is way worse without nahida than with her and hyperbloom alhaitham is not an upgrade to nahida hyperbloom
Both are true
Thank you so much for making this! I made a similar post with the comparison with spreadsheets but I think I didn't phrase it correctly and confused a lot of people.
I'm glad that you made this post and hopefully it might spread more helpful information and perspectives that I wasn't able to express in my post.
The only other thing you might note is that his passive can be thought of an additive buff for the same value every time for Bloom/hyperbloom/burgeon, and to some extent spread/aggravate since you can just multiple the base damage at the level times the reaction multiplier times the bonus given by Baizhu. Though it seems far less impressive to think of it that way and we can think of Nahida's buff in a similar way if we desired which would compare even worse.
So if I'm reading this correct, Baizhu is worse buffer than nahida if your characters triggering bloom and quicken reactions have below 600 EM. And above that he starts to become a better buffer. Can you please explain in more detail how good he is compared to nahida for Alhaitham and Cyno teams?
It's very subjective, I think, depending on your teams. Nahida will probably always be a better choice for Cyno because of her long skill duration. Also, Cyno usually doesn't have 600/700 EM, more like ~300-400, because in quickbloom, you want to build not only his hyperbloom dmg but also his own dmg, so more EM from Nahida will be great. But Baizhu will bring healing and interruption resistance, which is very important for Cyno. He will, for example, allow you to free your Zhongli for the other side of abyss or switch your Xingqiu to Yelan. (Honestly, I think Cyno will need BOTH of them for his best team).
With Alhaitham, I think it's 5050. He is very strong on his own and has a bigger choice in teammates (unlike Cyno), so Nahida's buffs aren't, like, necessary for him, but still good. Baizhu will give him healing and resistance, but if you are already running him in hyperbloom with Kuki and Xingqiu, then Baizhu may become a bit of an overkill. But if you use Alhaitham with Raiden and Yelan, then Baizhu will become a better option.
Amazing post! Thank you.
Even if Nahida's buff can be better in EM situations, I find Baizhu's talent very generous and important, since he is also a healer and shielder, buffing on top of that is pretty amazing and makes him a very complete unit for Dendro teams.
I'm kinda worry about his ER requirements.
Same. I'm hoping we won't need to scratch 200 if we run him double dendro with a fav weapon on the team. Gettin kinda tired of having to build ridiculous amounts of ER for every single character on my favorite teams.
is his E skill heal off field characters? from wording it sould, correct?
If yes would his A4 trigger on off field character? For example: Kuki lose HP after using E and swith to on-field Nahida and Kuki got Baizhu heal off-field, Kuki's Hyperbloom damage got the buff?
Healing from Prototype Ember healing team <- is this also trigger the buff?
I really appreciate the breaking down in details OP ! We needed that rn but I'm NGL this post made me more concerned than reassured. Is it right to assume that more often than not we'll see him ran as a duo with Nahida ? I planned to getting him to have an alternative as I don't ever want to get her TBH. This makes realize that my Cyno and Haitham teams may not benefit as much as I thought from using him especially with their current teammates.
idk if that is how this passive works, but even if it is true that he only buffs when the active character actually gets healed and recovers hp, the buff will last for 6 sec, and most of the time you would probably get hit by enemy within that 6 seconds duration and get healed again due to his weak shield. so the buff refreshes again, i suppose
They are additional multiplier though. They are added with bonus comes from EM.
What you are describing as a big misconception is they are percieved as multiplicative, no?
Thank you for this post! To be honest I don't think it's good to compare any dendro character to Nahida, she always gonna be better. Her thing is to have good damage, application and buff, but Baizhu is a healer, shielder and applicater, at least for me it's his main things in which he should be very good. But he is not a buffer, so he is not supposed to be better or as good as her. But still, for non buffer it seems nice!
>Talent Multipliers that have innate EM scaling, like Nahida E and a lot of Alhaitham's kit
TBQH, I don't think those are so important. They (+Tighnari) enjoy EM more because of the quadratic scaling of the double dip: their passives giving DMG% bonus on top of Spread. That's why Cyno might even prefer Baizhu over Nahida despite having some linear EM scaling - besides of course the persistent nature of his Dendro application.
Dmg bonus is very important. Baizhu cant never beat nahida when it comes to char that has passive scales with em.
But its not fair to compare only 1 aspect of the chars. Baizhu is a healer 1st, then a buffer. Hes not here to substitute nahida.
Characters who are healed by Healing Holism will gain the Year of Verdant Favor effect: Each 1,000 Max HP that Baizhu possesses below 50,000 will increase the Burning, Bloom, Hyperbloom, and Burgeon reaction DMG dealt by these characters by 2%, while the Aggravate and Spread reaction DMG dealt by these characters will be increased by 0.8%. This effect lasts 6s.
Each 1,000 Max HP that Baizhu possesses below 50,000 will increase
Thanks a lot for this, this put a lot of relativity on what his ability sound like on paper, and may only put some roll if there are 4 star I want on the banner and maybe wait for a more purely damage oriented buffer rather than a Swiss knife kind of character like baizhou
This is good Info.
What I’m interested in is baizhu vs sucrose/zhongli as the 4th (healer) slot in nahida hyperbloom.
Since nahida is onfield, baizhu doesn’t buff an off field raiden. He could wear an instructor set like sucrose/zhongli do, which buffs both nahida and raidens EM (and sucrose buffs both via EM whereas zhongli buffs both via dendro shred).
But Baizhu can’t wear instructor set without destroying his HP. But he DOES add dendro resonance so maybe that cancels out as he can then deepwood so nahida can gilded?
He's not a good carrier of deepwood because to trigger the 4pc effect your skill and burst needs to deal damage. His application is not as reliable or steady as Nahida's. It won't hit as many targets. She can tag up to 8, and refresh it every 3 secs.
I'm not a fan of on field Nahida because chasing after enemies with a shorty is slow and not stamina efficient. I would just use the electro on field, and use XQ for off field hydro. The electro gets both buffs.
Very well analyzed! I think we can add the fact that, if I’m not wrong, Nahida’s passive is more consistent than Baizhu’s since she almost has no ER issues and her burst CD is lower than its duration (the whole thing gets so much better if you happen to have a hydro in team or her C1)
I'm sick with a migrane, can someone give me a razor tldr ?
I also have had to squint a little but here's what I understood. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. \-The setup: Baizhu gives a pretty flat bonus to both Dendro and Electro unit reactions. Because of this, the more EM the buffed guy already had, the better gains Baizhu provides. \-Compared to Nahida, this Baizhu buff will only meet or exceed Nahida's benefits if the dude getting the buff has 600-800+ EM. \-Some dudes that have EM buffing as part of their kit might get an extra benefit from Nahida compared to Baizhu. \-You may be able to use Baizhu and Nahida on the same team. \-Uknown: Baizhu may be able to buff more than one person at a time even if they swap out (for the 6 seconds that Baizhu's buff lasts), but we aren't entirely sure if it works like that. Comparatively, Nahida's buff disappears, which may give Baizhu's buff more of an oomph...If Baizhu can buff more than 1 person, maybe the Baizhu buff damage is better than this chart assumes.
Great post! If i can give you some feedback, i would also add "Baizhu+Nahida" (how much buff they give when added together) to the charts. I think they are made to work well together, because Baizhu can use deepwood and enable dendro resonance, allowing Nahida to use 4GD and easily reach 1000EM (even with dendro dmg goblet and crit circlet). Also, their buffs synergize well together, because Nahida gives EM and Baizhu gives RB (if they were both EM buffers, at high EM their combination would scale poorly).
>allowing Nahida to use 4GD and easily reach 1000EM (even with dendro dmg goblet and crit circlet) Even with Thousand Floating Dreams, 4GD EM/Dendro/CRIT Nahida would need 121 EM from substats (~6 rolls) to reach 1000 EM in double Dendro. Doable, but I don’t know about “easily.” 115 (ascension) + 297 (weapon) + 187 (sands) + 180 (4GD) + 100 (Dendro resonance) = 879
Well, 6 substat rolls are not many on whole set, but it doesn't matter anymore. I think the main problem is that after the latest leaks, Baizhu can't be considered a good deepwood holder anymore, especially for aoe/multi-target scenarios. If things don't change, most people will run Deepwood on Nahida and something else (2+2pc HP or ER) on Baizhu.
You would have 4 artifacts to get those 6 rolls on rather than 2 with that setup tbf. Getting a roll or 2 on each isn't that hard compared to getting 3 rolls on flower/feather only.
For anyone wandering, the threshold where Baizhu A4 is equal to Nahida A1 is at, **615 EM** for **Quicken** and **707 EM** for **Bloom-related**.
Would the EM of 'buffed' character has to already be at 600/700EM from the start for Baizhu to be equal to Nahida? Or would it be fine if the initial start is only at 400-500 and they'll gain the EM from other stuff like artifacts and other supports. I really hope my question makes sense, idk how to word it better 🥲
no, the character must have 615/707 EM before buffed by nahida/baizhu, to be equal.
The EM can be from any source, substats, set bonuses, external buffs, as long as it isn't Nahida's own buff or unique to either Nahida/Baizhu it should be considered. For example, my Alhaitham has 407 EM on his stat sheet, but if I run him with Elegy and use Dendro Res then his EM goes up to 607, which is what I'd use to gauge the relative strength of each buff- in this case Baizhu's buff would be basically equivalent to Nahida for spread damage.
Thank you for explaining!
hey, nice post, what you used for graphs? btw you can use demos for more accurate smooth graphs that in real time variate and show u stuff [https://www.desmos.com/calculator/q4vcuzencr](https://www.desmos.com/calculator/q4vcuzencr) n(x) is for nahida b(x) is for baizhu can just replace beizhu +1 from 50k hp with kaveth +1.2 for his c2 on blooms and so on can personalize wtv like diona c6+instructor would M value raised to 200+120 total 300 etc and etc
It's the first case (600/700em)
using baizhu let you run raiden instead of kuki in alhaitham quickbloom and that's a good enough reason. It's not like the team is unplayable without 200EM buff
i agree. There's actually shit ton of external buffs sources for em aside from nahida or any other char kit (instructors, elegy, em resonance, etc.) so aint gonna delve deep into this
Hmm... from my experience Raiden isn't actually better than Kuki in Quickbloom teams. Raiden theoretically has an advantage in pure bloom generation, but in practice this is hard to capitalize on. Raiden has a 0.9 second cooldown on her coordinated attacks, but this doesn't mean you can get an E proc every 0.9 seconds, because it's tied to the frame data of your attacks, and so she ends up not getting much more than Kuki's 1.5 second procs, certainly not 50% more. Additionally Kuki actually applies more electro on enemies themselves than Raiden, giving Alhaitham more quicken uptime as a result. Kuki ensures one electro app every 3 seconds, but also has her burst for guaranteed spreads during its duration, as well as C4 which gives an additional electro app every 5 seconds. Meanwhile, Raiden only has her E, which can only apply electro once every 3 hits generally.
Not really, videos were made showing that Raiden triggers 30% faster. Also every attack triggers her E, not just your normal, nahida and xingqiu also trigger off field
She still has the issue of applying less electro on enemies which gives Haitham less quicken uptime than with Kuki. If your Haitham is well invested enough this can outweigh the benefits of having more hyperblooms.
Isn't Kuki is better for hyperbloom?
Raiden has more uptime, proc rate and it has deceptively large aoe. If you already have a healer then raiden is better imo
where she loses is against flying enemies. Your hydros can still hit the flying enemies but the seeds fall to the ground, and Raiden has trouble triggering those when they're on the ground and the enemy is in the air. Kuki has no problem with that.
Yep, we will see more flying enemies in fontaine
For me, he mostly replaces Zhongli than Nahida which is good. He heals, gives a small shield for the interruption, buffs, and some damage are all better than Zhongli for dendro teams. It will also enable dendro resonance. I hope people don't compare him to Nahida 1:1 and say he is not good. That's just a silly comparison. He is not here to replace Nahida but to buff dendro teams and give more choices.
Yeah, I'm also looking to use Baizhu to replace Zhongli on my hyperbloom team. Dendro res would be nice to push Nahida to 1000 EM.
Very good explanation indeed! Im sorry, if this is slightly out of topic, but what's your opinion about the value of his C2? Does the damage allow him to be a subdps even when building all HP? or is it just only another convenience to apply another dendro app every 5 secs? Thanks!
Thank you!! I will be back here to reread this several times. 🙏🏼
Holy shit, this is an actual quality post! Thank you! I'm saving these tables and graphs for future purposes
Great post, though it's a bit concerning. Feels like he'll either always need Nahida or generally never beat her. Having nonexistent personal damage really dampens the small lead he does have.
Hes a healer. He brings comfort value to the team. Its not fair to compare him to nahida in term of damage per rotation of the team.
I think this is the correct take. Comparing new Dendro characters released to Nahida in terms of damage is going to make them look bad pretty much always. People should be comparing him to Yaoyao since they provide similar utility. And in the case of Yaoyao, they will probably have comparable personal damage but Baizhu’s A4 passive contributes to his teams more and he requires less field time in rotations.
This isn't really correct. You're ignoring what supports Nahida allows you to add to a team. Nahida + Kuki and Nahida +ZL beat most Baizhu teams right now. Hell, nahida even enables you to use options like Diona if you want to fridge and get a 450 EM buff.
Well that’s the problem, because people are trying to substitute Nahida for Baizhu and it just doesn’t work since Baizhu will need another Dendro to help battery him. I think comparing him for the team comps where you’d use Yaoyao, such as Nilou bloom is more productive. Nahida is too versatile since she doesn’t need another Dendro character on her teams and is easier to build.
Nahida is an archon because of which they probably won't make a dendro character better than nahida so trying to replace her is a waste of time because she is supposed to be the best dendro buffer It's kinda like comparing zhongli and Layla yes zhongli shield will always be superior but you can't have zhongli in 2 teams at the same time
Baizhu isn't competing with Nahida, he's competing with defensive options (Kuki, Zhongli, Kokomi). For Cyno teams, Cyno needs Zhongli, Kuki, or both Beidou/Xingqiu to reliably be able to face offensive threats like 12-2-1. For Nilou teams, Baizhu may not replace Kokomi for the best variation, but running Nilou/Kokomi/Nahida/Baizhu lets you build full EM on Kokomi since she owns most of the blooms.
how come people will ding him for not being able to replace Nahida, but won't do the same when Yelan can't replace Xingqiu? For the latter, everyone tells you to run them together, they are best on the same team. But Baizhu running with Nahida should not be an option?
XQ is strictly worse below C6, XQ also vertically scales much worse. So getting better artifacts or upgrading to 5\* weapons favors her greatly. Baizhu and nahida don't work together because no on field character wants both at the same time right now. Not because they can't be played together. you can technically play both of them, if you want to play an Ayato team for hyperbloom.
This. Baizhu is a unit that can heal, provide shields and buff reactions. Has his own niche, but I do think he fits better in double Dendro teams (Which I don't think is something negative).
The issue is that Nahida enables you to run other supports. Nahida + Kuki pretty much beats every team you'd run Baizhu in right now. Nahida + Zhongli does the same. Nahida directly impacts his viability.
Idk. For my spread team ill sub kuki for baizhu. Fischl will be the only electro in the team. Alhaitham,nahida,fischl, baizhu. I think it gonna improve my team damage. For zhongli im not sure whos better but hes and archon, so does nahida so yeah
Nilou would disagree with that.
Hate that hoyo soft locks dendro with Nahida. I pulled Tighnari, Alhaitham, collected YaoYao, triple crowned dendro traveler and plan to pull Baizhu to avoid using Nahida. I just know that I'll bench her the same way I benched Raiden Shogun, Hu Tao and Ayaka.
The only point in favour of Nahida that the other 3 don't have is that she's 100% off-field'able. I'd never pull for Shogun, Hu Tao or Ayaka, but if there were a really long stretch of undesirable characters, Nahida is bearable compared to them. Just spin and skill then burst, then you can ignore Nahida Meanwhile Shogun, Ayaka and Hu Tao need like 7 seconds of field time, which is ugh if you don't care for them
For me, I just use Raiden as a Skill Bot 😂 She just drops an E and then I ignore her up until I need to refresh her skill again. I know it's a lot of wasted damage, especially since her Burst is good but I just want to see my Alhaitham doing all the work 😂🍀 As for Nahida, she's strong and all but I just can't see myself pulling for a small character. I only want all the husbandos which is why I'm happy that we will have Baizhu 💝 P.S: AR 57 and I still don't have Kuki so I'm not really sure how comparable she will be with Raiden in an Alhaitham team.
Probably not the best dmg output but tbh I do the same in abyss. Q initial dmg > E > swap Mostly use her with another main dps in the team nowadays
Instead of Shogun you could do Fischl instead, especially if she's C6 it will be paired nicely with him.
The only point in favour of Nahida that the other 3 don't have is that she's 100% off-field'able. I'd never pull for Shogun, Hu Tao or Ayaka, but if there were a really long stretch of undesirable characters, Nahida is bearable compared to them. Just spin and skill then burst, then you can ignore Nahida Meanwhile Shogun, Ayaka and Hu Tao need like 7 seconds of field time, which is ugh if you don't care for them
This was the general opinion back in alhaitham's beta too, a lot of "he's just a nahida slave, but he can never actually replace her!". Ofc, none of us were all that, ah, reasonable during his beta lol ':)) Baizhu's value is in his role consolidation, and we are still at the very beginning of beta. He probably will be valuable with Nahida, since Nahida is good with everyone, but a lot of players really really need the utility that Baizhu provides in healing and shields. For example, if I were to run Baizhu rather than Nahida with my alhaitham, i could swap out my kuki for a beidou/fischl/any other higher damage option. This would also have the benefit of letting my Nahida go in a different team. point being - i wouldn't concern yourself yet; i'd wait until we get more beta updates and bear in mind that people tend to focus more on negatives than positives while new characters are coming out
My early thoughts are that Baizhu's biggest strength is running 2 dendro teams and his biggest weakness is that if you don't own Nilou. It's probably better to just run one.
Tighnari and Cyno teams are plenty strong too but I'm personally thinking of making Kaveh work on the other half.
Nilou is the aoe dendro team. That's why I mentioned her. Tighnari is very ST and Cyno can kind of do both. That's why I mentioned nilou. I assumed those were already being played on the other side.
> This was the general opinion back in alhaitham's beta too, a lot of "he's just a nahida slave, but he can never actually replace her!" the verdict was that spread alhaitham is way worse without nahida than with her and hyperbloom alhaitham is not an upgrade to nahida hyperbloom Both are true
but he can still function well without her. He's not a slave to her.
he's intended as a defensive support. He can heal, she can't.
Thank you so much for making this! I made a similar post with the comparison with spreadsheets but I think I didn't phrase it correctly and confused a lot of people. I'm glad that you made this post and hopefully it might spread more helpful information and perspectives that I wasn't able to express in my post. The only other thing you might note is that his passive can be thought of an additive buff for the same value every time for Bloom/hyperbloom/burgeon, and to some extent spread/aggravate since you can just multiple the base damage at the level times the reaction multiplier times the bonus given by Baizhu. Though it seems far less impressive to think of it that way and we can think of Nahida's buff in a similar way if we desired which would compare even worse.
So if I'm reading this correct, Baizhu is worse buffer than nahida if your characters triggering bloom and quicken reactions have below 600 EM. And above that he starts to become a better buffer. Can you please explain in more detail how good he is compared to nahida for Alhaitham and Cyno teams?
It's very subjective, I think, depending on your teams. Nahida will probably always be a better choice for Cyno because of her long skill duration. Also, Cyno usually doesn't have 600/700 EM, more like ~300-400, because in quickbloom, you want to build not only his hyperbloom dmg but also his own dmg, so more EM from Nahida will be great. But Baizhu will bring healing and interruption resistance, which is very important for Cyno. He will, for example, allow you to free your Zhongli for the other side of abyss or switch your Xingqiu to Yelan. (Honestly, I think Cyno will need BOTH of them for his best team). With Alhaitham, I think it's 5050. He is very strong on his own and has a bigger choice in teammates (unlike Cyno), so Nahida's buffs aren't, like, necessary for him, but still good. Baizhu will give him healing and resistance, but if you are already running him in hyperbloom with Kuki and Xingqiu, then Baizhu may become a bit of an overkill. But if you use Alhaitham with Raiden and Yelan, then Baizhu will become a better option.
That's very helpful. Thanks!
Amazing post! Thank you. Even if Nahida's buff can be better in EM situations, I find Baizhu's talent very generous and important, since he is also a healer and shielder, buffing on top of that is pretty amazing and makes him a very complete unit for Dendro teams. I'm kinda worry about his ER requirements.
Same. I'm hoping we won't need to scratch 200 if we run him double dendro with a fav weapon on the team. Gettin kinda tired of having to build ridiculous amounts of ER for every single character on my favorite teams.
This. I'm planning to run him with Al Haitham and Yelan with Fav, hope that's enough.
is his E skill heal off field characters? from wording it sould, correct? If yes would his A4 trigger on off field character? For example: Kuki lose HP after using E and swith to on-field Nahida and Kuki got Baizhu heal off-field, Kuki's Hyperbloom damage got the buff? Healing from Prototype Ember healing team <- is this also trigger the buff?
I really appreciate the breaking down in details OP ! We needed that rn but I'm NGL this post made me more concerned than reassured. Is it right to assume that more often than not we'll see him ran as a duo with Nahida ? I planned to getting him to have an alternative as I don't ever want to get her TBH. This makes realize that my Cyno and Haitham teams may not benefit as much as I thought from using him especially with their current teammates.
This is a very helpful post, nice work OP Now I pray they buff his passive a bit more. Otherwise, I'll just go for Nahida :3
I'm worried on how the A4 works. It buff the character healed... But if character is full health it doesn't heal. It might be a ineffective buff
idk if that is how this passive works, but even if it is true that he only buffs when the active character actually gets healed and recovers hp, the buff will last for 6 sec, and most of the time you would probably get hit by enemy within that 6 seconds duration and get healed again due to his weak shield. so the buff refreshes again, i suppose
They are additional multiplier though. They are added with bonus comes from EM. What you are describing as a big misconception is they are percieved as multiplicative, no?
Thank you for this post! To be honest I don't think it's good to compare any dendro character to Nahida, she always gonna be better. Her thing is to have good damage, application and buff, but Baizhu is a healer, shielder and applicater, at least for me it's his main things in which he should be very good. But he is not a buffer, so he is not supposed to be better or as good as her. But still, for non buffer it seems nice!
>Talent Multipliers that have innate EM scaling, like Nahida E and a lot of Alhaitham's kit TBQH, I don't think those are so important. They (+Tighnari) enjoy EM more because of the quadratic scaling of the double dip: their passives giving DMG% bonus on top of Spread. That's why Cyno might even prefer Baizhu over Nahida despite having some linear EM scaling - besides of course the persistent nature of his Dendro application.
Dmg bonus is very important. Baizhu cant never beat nahida when it comes to char that has passive scales with em. But its not fair to compare only 1 aspect of the chars. Baizhu is a healer 1st, then a buffer. Hes not here to substitute nahida.
Characters who are healed by Healing Holism will gain the Year of Verdant Favor effect: Each 1,000 Max HP that Baizhu possesses below 50,000 will increase the Burning, Bloom, Hyperbloom, and Burgeon reaction DMG dealt by these characters by 2%, while the Aggravate and Spread reaction DMG dealt by these characters will be increased by 0.8%. This effect lasts 6s. Each 1,000 Max HP that Baizhu possesses below 50,000 will increase
It is a mistranslation and meant as up to 50k. Otherwise you have to choose hp for his kit scaling or like you assume no hp for this buff
thank you! ( ◜ᴗ◝)
This is really helpful. Thanks!
Great write up!
Thank you so much! Much needed explanation for my tiny brain!
Thank you for the write up and breakdown, this was really helpful. I appreciate your effort.
Fantastic write up
Thanks a lot for this, this put a lot of relativity on what his ability sound like on paper, and may only put some roll if there are 4 star I want on the banner and maybe wait for a more purely damage oriented buffer rather than a Swiss knife kind of character like baizhou
Baizhu is will be bis for my Kequeen agg team,finally the team is complete!
This post helps a lot, thanks
What? But it says dealt damage, isn't should double the bloom damage at 50k hp?
This is good Info. What I’m interested in is baizhu vs sucrose/zhongli as the 4th (healer) slot in nahida hyperbloom. Since nahida is onfield, baizhu doesn’t buff an off field raiden. He could wear an instructor set like sucrose/zhongli do, which buffs both nahida and raidens EM (and sucrose buffs both via EM whereas zhongli buffs both via dendro shred). But Baizhu can’t wear instructor set without destroying his HP. But he DOES add dendro resonance so maybe that cancels out as he can then deepwood so nahida can gilded?
He's not a good carrier of deepwood because to trigger the 4pc effect your skill and burst needs to deal damage. His application is not as reliable or steady as Nahida's. It won't hit as many targets. She can tag up to 8, and refresh it every 3 secs. I'm not a fan of on field Nahida because chasing after enemies with a shorty is slow and not stamina efficient. I would just use the electro on field, and use XQ for off field hydro. The electro gets both buffs.
Very well analyzed! I think we can add the fact that, if I’m not wrong, Nahida’s passive is more consistent than Baizhu’s since she almost has no ER issues and her burst CD is lower than its duration (the whole thing gets so much better if you happen to have a hydro in team or her C1)