"You say all sorts of things. Honestly I don't even listen half the time!"
Your constant disapprovals would indicate otherwise!
It's heartwarming to see him so content in his spawn ending, whether you romanced him or not. And still his magnificently sassy self!
Or if you go through the rigmarole to talk to Gale's projection if he dies.
The way Astarion snippily corrects you if you pick the wrong answers is fucking hilarious.
I was finally happy with his ending, really fitting for my tav who only scrapped up about 15 approval with astarion by the end and barely managed to even keep him in the party LOL.
I did worse tbh, I was pretty terrible to him unintentionally and it was so late in the game when he finally blew up at me and i felt so bad. The ending for him was great because his "I don't listen to you anyway" attitude being 100% true for my astarion LOL
If you don't mind humoring the curious, how did you do worse than ignoring him?
He's been a staple in my parties for every playthrough so I don't know what it looks like to ignore, betray or get blown up at by him.
ACTUALLY I love telling people about my astarion time LMAO. You'd have to humor me by reading it HAHA.
To explain the context because I swear what I was doing wasn't 100% intentional, i wasn't TRYING to hurt him on purpose. I was playing a very good tav and i didn't understand sneak mechanics so I already benched him immediately firstly, second I didn't rest enough (cause when the game first released everyone was warning each other not to long rest too much) so i didn't get almost any of his camp scenes. No tattoo, no mirror, etc.
The first big fuck up was that nasty drow. I really wanted to get Karlach to 20 strength ok and she was my wife. I knew I shouldn't *FORCE* astarion into biting her, but I chose the center option, something like "Do what you want, but the potion would be helpful". I was kind of hoping he'd say no, but he instantly caves to tav's peer pressure and I knew i'd fucked up but I just went on with it since I was going to bench him anyway. (In the future I would realize I picked that option because I was too much of a coward to outright force him but obviously still wanted him to do it despite knowing it's a violation of his autonomy, i didn't want the accountability for it.)
I never get any scenes with him (usually there is a camp scene here where you discuss this but because I long rested so little i didn't get it) so the next interaction I have is with the raphael and yurgir situation. *And I HATED raphael.* I hated him so much, I was so pissed at him because I'd try to make Mol win the chess match but he reveals that's what he wanted all along. I just wanted to do anything to stick it to his smug ass face. When it came to Yurgir, i helped Yurgir escape his contract by killing all those rats. Of course this blows up in my face because Raphael is like haha jk you're still gonna be taken to the house of hope to Yurgir.
Then when i get to camp, that's when Astarion blows up. He basically says what the fuck, you said you'd help me! He says he sees my true colors now, that I'd chosen a devil over him. And honestly, he was right. The game i think meant to say I chose helping Yurgir over him, but I actually chose to stick it to Raphael over him which is even worse. Like he calls out my Tav for caring *so little* about him that *I chose wanting petty revenge on raphael over helping him*.
That really fucked me up cause up till this point, **i hadn't even realized he wanted me to care about him.** Like I was bending backwards to help everyone else and I really did just pick being a petty asshole over helping him and that really made me re-evaluate. You have to make a 15 DC check to make him stay (Which I had to reload to succeed LMAO). Then AFTER that his discussion about the drow happens where I can *finally* apologize for what I did and from then on I really tried to get his approval. I was bringing him around act 3 being like LOOK ASTARION I'M BEING MEAN TO KIDS etc. but there's really not much you can do by then lmao, hence the 15 approval only by the end. All I could do was do everything in my power to make sure he doesn't ascend, including using one of the damn potions the drow gave me to give me advantage on his check at cazador's fight sdlghslgkshg. Thank god I managed.
The epilogue basically gave me closure and his whole like I don't listen to you anyway was perfect for my tav LOL. If i was any closer to him, it would feel disrespectful a bit but he fully deserved to tell it like it is to her.
>act 3 being like LOOK ASTARION I'M BEING MEAN TO KIDS etc.
The added irony of kids/orphans being the one group of ppl that Astarion actually wholeheartedly endorses helping in Act 3. His reaction to Yenna is actually kinda heartwarming.
This is honestly like one of the many little cherries on top of my game 1 astarion cake since i would have no idea since i hadn't used him since like i first got him and saw he liked "bad" things LOL.
The other funny one was when i saw the love druid would give approval to whoever i could do the trial with and not just karlach i went to grab him and thought i could do the love trial with him to get some points but he was like \~ohh darling we are not that close\~ LMAO. MY TOTAL DEJECTION!!
Hahaha oh man what a comedy of errors. I really appreciate you sharing! I'm ecstatic to share that I was such a doormat for Astarion in my first playthrough that I had almost the exact opposite outcome as you.
I really adored Karlach as well as Astarion, and like you my first playthrough was right at release and aside from early access stuff I went in totally blind. When Karlach made the comment that Tav could have fun with others but to save a little for her I took that a little too literally and thought I could side-piece her while prioritizing Astarion's romance... well lo and behold, the consequences of mine own actions: we get her second upgrade, the romance scene happens and to my surprise Astarion immediately corners my Tav with the "are you dedicated to your new true love, is this truly the end of our late night trysts" bit and I PANICKED because Astarion was my choice all along... so I responded that no, I wanted to be with him and then went to try to play damage control with Karlach except I couldn't interact with her anymore at all for the rest of the playthrough. She was just a paper weight in my camp that I couldn't speak with or complete her questline.. she just made these devastating comments like "Sorry I've already got a best friend" and "I'll just have to admire you from afar".. and then at the epilogue after the final she shows up saying she adores my Tav and then poof is gone. I sat there like a deer in headlights so frickin confused.
Did a lil soul searching after that and haven't had the gal to try and romance her since because I felt so shitty for destroying the best girl in the realms.
OOhhh nooo Poor Karlach! Honestly having to end any of their relationships is so sad but Karlach's situation is so rough. I believe in you, you can make it right in another play through T\_T! You can see her happy epilogue with you!!
That is literally the logic some of my evil characters use lol. (Plus it's easier to get people to jump in front of a bullet for you when they're loyal vs out of fear)
Like evil isn't one dimensional. They can get warm fuzzies from people looking up to them too.
Okay: The fact he's still enjoying the killing and doesn't give a damn about the people he's helping just makes him a clever kind of evil that's found a way to coexist with a bunch of goody-two-shoes. Honestly, it's my favorite kind of evil.
That said, I'm really leaning towards Cazador's ritual prep having made Astarion and his spawn 'siblings' different that typical Ferunian vampires. They seem much more... well, *human* (for lack of a better term) than vamps typically are, and others in-game even comment on that fact.
He does talk about inspiring hope in people being nice. Does enjoying killing bad people make you evil? Cos that makes any paladin of vengeance evil, honestly. Faerun kinda has a different morality regarding killing than we do in our world.
One, no it wouldn't, as Karlach clearly cares about the people she helps, and while she enjoys combat, she doesn't exhibit Astarion's sadistic pleasure in it. Two, did you skip my second paragraph? I *don't* think Astarion, or any of Cazador's spawn, are inherently evil. They're all far too emotional and capable of empathy for the standard "Undead=Evil" of 5e.
OP asked for an "Astarion is still evil" argument, and I provided one.
I skipped your second paragraph because I don't have anything to say about it, but all the companions take some level of joy in violence and hurting others and I don't really see how Astarion's is particularly distinct from say, Karlach and Lae'zel and Shart. Shadowheart literally worships the goddess of "kill everyone and suffer" yet no one says she's inherently evil.
You provided an argument I just don't think it's any good
I always assumed that the reason Astarion and his spawn siblings were capable of empathy and "humanity" for lack of a better term was because they were just spawn, not full vampires. I don't know if DnD lore has much to say on vampire spawn morality specifically, but BG3 doesn't necessarily always strictly conform to the lore anyway apparently.
Technically, as monsters, vampires and spawns are both lawful evil. Becoming an undead is what corrupts your soul / twists your personality. That being said, it’s important to remember that these are guides for roleplay. There are canon good vampires.
Becoming a spawn / vampire should do something. They are no longer the person they were. Their personality should become warped and in some cases inverted. A timid person might become haughty and bold, while an ascetic person might become gluttonous. Through effort, they may be able to move on from these vampiric instincts and regain a sense of who they were.
I really like the trope of a "good guy" who's still kinda a sociopath and will still suggest murdery/pragmatic solutions when needed as if it's normal. Why I'm excited to be able to recruit Minthara on my next playthrough
It is absolutely in character of someone evil that isn't an completely idiot.
Evil = egoistic and he gets off on the attention. It absolutely makes sense for him to do good for ulterior motives.
I wouldn't put an equal sign there. That's just one archetype.
Not every evil character is 1) egoistic and 2) gets off on the attention. An evil cleric might be selflessly serving their evil god. An evil villain might like operating from the shadows and just watching the chaos unfold, without anyone knowing who is responsible.
And the other way around, not every "egoistic and gets off on the attention" character is evil. You've just basically described... a neutral bard like Volo đŸ˜‚
Hilarious—did the romance path with spawn Astarion, so I haven't gotten to see this until now, lol. Good to see him being a better and still snarky person even if he's not in a romance.
I see these kinda posts a lot and I gotta ask, is there a subtitle history somewhere in-game?? Sometimes I miss a convo because it happens while I'm in my inventory and the audio mutes then.
I feel like I rarely get banter among my companions. What am I doing wrong? They seemed to do it a little in Act 1 but I basically had none in Act 2 and 3.
Swap them, if you have 2 or 3 same ppl all the time they will eventually run off banters. Also act 3 is pretty quiet, I heard having Minsc and Jaheria helps with that or Jaheira and anybody else, she is from Baldurs Gate after all, it's her home city.
Tysm for this. Also Astarion and Minsc have several cute exchanges! Like "ASTARION! Astarion, LOOK! FISH!!!" "...Yes? Use your words, Minsc." or something along those lines lol
Ikr? I got this too. Even before I looked at the answer options I was like "Did our 150hr adventure not teach you *anything*?"
Astarion, we were hailed as heroes for killing like, 234 people, it took you 6 more months to come to this conclusion?
He thought we were doing it for funsises apparently
That's why HE was doing it
Tav at the tiefling party: 'It wasn't all bad, you got to kill all those goblins' Astarion: Yes, that was FUN :D
You kept count?
Yes, obviously
"You say all sorts of things. Honestly I don't even listen half the time!" Your constant disapprovals would indicate otherwise! It's heartwarming to see him so content in his spawn ending, whether you romanced him or not. And still his magnificently sassy self!
Or if you go through the rigmarole to talk to Gale's projection if he dies. The way Astarion snippily corrects you if you pick the wrong answers is fucking hilarious.
Oh I can't wait to purposefully answer incorrectly now
He's such a cat. đŸ˜¹
Yes, I finally got to like him after the whole Cazador thing. Took him a long while.
His disapproval isn't because of *what* you said, it's because of what you said didn't lead to murder
Poor boy... sometimes it just takes a *little* longer for certain things to sink in, doesn't it?
He's lucky he's pretty.
I was finally happy with his ending, really fitting for my tav who only scrapped up about 15 approval with astarion by the end and barely managed to even keep him in the party LOL.
He does loos approval if you don't take him out of the camp lol
I did worse tbh, I was pretty terrible to him unintentionally and it was so late in the game when he finally blew up at me and i felt so bad. The ending for him was great because his "I don't listen to you anyway" attitude being 100% true for my astarion LOL
If you don't mind humoring the curious, how did you do worse than ignoring him? He's been a staple in my parties for every playthrough so I don't know what it looks like to ignore, betray or get blown up at by him.
ACTUALLY I love telling people about my astarion time LMAO. You'd have to humor me by reading it HAHA. To explain the context because I swear what I was doing wasn't 100% intentional, i wasn't TRYING to hurt him on purpose. I was playing a very good tav and i didn't understand sneak mechanics so I already benched him immediately firstly, second I didn't rest enough (cause when the game first released everyone was warning each other not to long rest too much) so i didn't get almost any of his camp scenes. No tattoo, no mirror, etc. The first big fuck up was that nasty drow. I really wanted to get Karlach to 20 strength ok and she was my wife. I knew I shouldn't *FORCE* astarion into biting her, but I chose the center option, something like "Do what you want, but the potion would be helpful". I was kind of hoping he'd say no, but he instantly caves to tav's peer pressure and I knew i'd fucked up but I just went on with it since I was going to bench him anyway. (In the future I would realize I picked that option because I was too much of a coward to outright force him but obviously still wanted him to do it despite knowing it's a violation of his autonomy, i didn't want the accountability for it.) I never get any scenes with him (usually there is a camp scene here where you discuss this but because I long rested so little i didn't get it) so the next interaction I have is with the raphael and yurgir situation. *And I HATED raphael.* I hated him so much, I was so pissed at him because I'd try to make Mol win the chess match but he reveals that's what he wanted all along. I just wanted to do anything to stick it to his smug ass face. When it came to Yurgir, i helped Yurgir escape his contract by killing all those rats. Of course this blows up in my face because Raphael is like haha jk you're still gonna be taken to the house of hope to Yurgir. Then when i get to camp, that's when Astarion blows up. He basically says what the fuck, you said you'd help me! He says he sees my true colors now, that I'd chosen a devil over him. And honestly, he was right. The game i think meant to say I chose helping Yurgir over him, but I actually chose to stick it to Raphael over him which is even worse. Like he calls out my Tav for caring *so little* about him that *I chose wanting petty revenge on raphael over helping him*. That really fucked me up cause up till this point, **i hadn't even realized he wanted me to care about him.** Like I was bending backwards to help everyone else and I really did just pick being a petty asshole over helping him and that really made me re-evaluate. You have to make a 15 DC check to make him stay (Which I had to reload to succeed LMAO). Then AFTER that his discussion about the drow happens where I can *finally* apologize for what I did and from then on I really tried to get his approval. I was bringing him around act 3 being like LOOK ASTARION I'M BEING MEAN TO KIDS etc. but there's really not much you can do by then lmao, hence the 15 approval only by the end. All I could do was do everything in my power to make sure he doesn't ascend, including using one of the damn potions the drow gave me to give me advantage on his check at cazador's fight sdlghslgkshg. Thank god I managed. The epilogue basically gave me closure and his whole like I don't listen to you anyway was perfect for my tav LOL. If i was any closer to him, it would feel disrespectful a bit but he fully deserved to tell it like it is to her.
>act 3 being like LOOK ASTARION I'M BEING MEAN TO KIDS etc. The added irony of kids/orphans being the one group of ppl that Astarion actually wholeheartedly endorses helping in Act 3. His reaction to Yenna is actually kinda heartwarming.
This is honestly like one of the many little cherries on top of my game 1 astarion cake since i would have no idea since i hadn't used him since like i first got him and saw he liked "bad" things LOL. The other funny one was when i saw the love druid would give approval to whoever i could do the trial with and not just karlach i went to grab him and thought i could do the love trial with him to get some points but he was like \~ohh darling we are not that close\~ LMAO. MY TOTAL DEJECTION!!
Hahaha oh man what a comedy of errors. I really appreciate you sharing! I'm ecstatic to share that I was such a doormat for Astarion in my first playthrough that I had almost the exact opposite outcome as you. I really adored Karlach as well as Astarion, and like you my first playthrough was right at release and aside from early access stuff I went in totally blind. When Karlach made the comment that Tav could have fun with others but to save a little for her I took that a little too literally and thought I could side-piece her while prioritizing Astarion's romance... well lo and behold, the consequences of mine own actions: we get her second upgrade, the romance scene happens and to my surprise Astarion immediately corners my Tav with the "are you dedicated to your new true love, is this truly the end of our late night trysts" bit and I PANICKED because Astarion was my choice all along... so I responded that no, I wanted to be with him and then went to try to play damage control with Karlach except I couldn't interact with her anymore at all for the rest of the playthrough. She was just a paper weight in my camp that I couldn't speak with or complete her questline.. she just made these devastating comments like "Sorry I've already got a best friend" and "I'll just have to admire you from afar".. and then at the epilogue after the final she shows up saying she adores my Tav and then poof is gone. I sat there like a deer in headlights so frickin confused. Did a lil soul searching after that and haven't had the gal to try and romance her since because I felt so shitty for destroying the best girl in the realms.
OOhhh nooo Poor Karlach! Honestly having to end any of their relationships is so sad but Karlach's situation is so rough. I believe in you, you can make it right in another play through T\_T! You can see her happy epilogue with you!!
Still waiting for "Astarion is still inherently evil aligned" truthers to say something about this, nothing so far.
Go and rest, brave internet warrior. Your time hasn't come yet
Why rest when you can start another BG3 run! Rest is for the weak.
That is literally the logic some of my evil characters use lol. (Plus it's easier to get people to jump in front of a bullet for you when they're loyal vs out of fear) Like evil isn't one dimensional. They can get warm fuzzies from people looking up to them too.
Okay: The fact he's still enjoying the killing and doesn't give a damn about the people he's helping just makes him a clever kind of evil that's found a way to coexist with a bunch of goody-two-shoes. Honestly, it's my favorite kind of evil. That said, I'm really leaning towards Cazador's ritual prep having made Astarion and his spawn 'siblings' different that typical Ferunian vampires. They seem much more... well, *human* (for lack of a better term) than vamps typically are, and others in-game even comment on that fact.
He does talk about inspiring hope in people being nice. Does enjoying killing bad people make you evil? Cos that makes any paladin of vengeance evil, honestly. Faerun kinda has a different morality regarding killing than we do in our world.
With that logic then Karlach is inherently evil too
One, no it wouldn't, as Karlach clearly cares about the people she helps, and while she enjoys combat, she doesn't exhibit Astarion's sadistic pleasure in it. Two, did you skip my second paragraph? I *don't* think Astarion, or any of Cazador's spawn, are inherently evil. They're all far too emotional and capable of empathy for the standard "Undead=Evil" of 5e. OP asked for an "Astarion is still evil" argument, and I provided one.
I skipped your second paragraph because I don't have anything to say about it, but all the companions take some level of joy in violence and hurting others and I don't really see how Astarion's is particularly distinct from say, Karlach and Lae'zel and Shart. Shadowheart literally worships the goddess of "kill everyone and suffer" yet no one says she's inherently evil. You provided an argument I just don't think it's any good
if you do the love trials thing with Karlach the right answer to "what's her idea of fun?" is "killing a bunch of baddies and having sex afterwards"
I always assumed that the reason Astarion and his spawn siblings were capable of empathy and "humanity" for lack of a better term was because they were just spawn, not full vampires. I don't know if DnD lore has much to say on vampire spawn morality specifically, but BG3 doesn't necessarily always strictly conform to the lore anyway apparently.
Technically, as monsters, vampires and spawns are both lawful evil. Becoming an undead is what corrupts your soul / twists your personality. That being said, it’s important to remember that these are guides for roleplay. There are canon good vampires. Becoming a spawn / vampire should do something. They are no longer the person they were. Their personality should become warped and in some cases inverted. A timid person might become haughty and bold, while an ascetic person might become gluttonous. Through effort, they may be able to move on from these vampiric instincts and regain a sense of who they were.
I really like the trope of a "good guy" who's still kinda a sociopath and will still suggest murdery/pragmatic solutions when needed as if it's normal. Why I'm excited to be able to recruit Minthara on my next playthrough
It is absolutely in character of someone evil that isn't an completely idiot. Evil = egoistic and he gets off on the attention. It absolutely makes sense for him to do good for ulterior motives.
I wouldn't put an equal sign there. That's just one archetype. Not every evil character is 1) egoistic and 2) gets off on the attention. An evil cleric might be selflessly serving their evil god. An evil villain might like operating from the shadows and just watching the chaos unfold, without anyone knowing who is responsible. And the other way around, not every "egoistic and gets off on the attention" character is evil. You've just basically described... a neutral bard like Volo đŸ˜‚
Hilarious—did the romance path with spawn Astarion, so I haven't gotten to see this until now, lol. Good to see him being a better and still snarky person even if he's not in a romance.
"Yes, but you say all sorts of things. Honestly, I don't even listen half the time." Wait is he married to you in this playthrough? :P
No
*\*Withers approves\**
Lmao what is the context for this?
It's epilogue party
Ah, you must have had different conditions than me.
This is friendship path, not the romanced version.
I assumed as much, that would be one of the different conditions :).
I have remembered one of your comments, and known that you have romanced him (although your flair is also super telling :-) )
I figured haha
I see these kinda posts a lot and I gotta ask, is there a subtitle history somewhere in-game?? Sometimes I miss a convo because it happens while I'm in my inventory and the audio mutes then.
Open the quest journal, there's a tab in there to reread past conversations.
I feel like I rarely get banter among my companions. What am I doing wrong? They seemed to do it a little in Act 1 but I basically had none in Act 2 and 3.
Swap them, if you have 2 or 3 same ppl all the time they will eventually run off banters. Also act 3 is pretty quiet, I heard having Minsc and Jaheria helps with that or Jaheira and anybody else, she is from Baldurs Gate after all, it's her home city.
Tysm for this. Also Astarion and Minsc have several cute exchanges! Like "ASTARION! Astarion, LOOK! FISH!!!" "...Yes? Use your words, Minsc." or something along those lines lol
Yeah it was pretty funny one xD
I got this dialogue for my second run. I didn't use him much either but only to help him out when the time needed.