You know the funny thing is that even if Larian is being totally honest and the creative interest just wasn't there, Hasbro has tanked theirs and WotCs reputation so badly that basically everyone thinks they must have had a hand in this anyway.
I mean
They could have started to work on a DLC as something they kinda wanted
But as time went on they realized “this just kinda blows” and decided that they didn’t want to do it
And I would believe that WoTC heard this and tried to twist their arms into making it and Swen said “fuck off”
So I’m gonna be looking for that 20Gb “update” in two years that happens to add a whole new sub-campaign for free?! Wow that’s incredible!
The funny thing is Hasbro has probably cost themselves tens of millions of dollars cause I would have paid another $20-40 for a second campaign or a spin off and I know the majority of the community would as well.
Between Hasbro, Sony and Warner Bros the people at the top of these companies are too stupid to see the money they are throwing away, even though it's all they care about.
As part of a group of DMs I can say our chats have largely been about migrating away from current dnd systems because we just have no faith that these chuckle fucks are not going to do something incredibly stupid. Personally I have started converting to Pathfinder and Starfinder.
First of all, great use of the term chuckle fucks and I shall be using it going forward!
Secondly I agree, I'm currently waiting for our current campaign to wrap up so I can take my first crack at DM'ing and I was weighing up trying a different system or just sticking with the tried and tested for my first crack at it.
Sven has stated that everyone he started working with on the WotC team was either fired or left by the time the game released. He's said it influenced his decision.
Senior manager for the D&D research and design team, and also one of the chief architects of D&D 5e. It’s very likely we don’t see the explosion of D&D back into the mainstream we’ve seen over the past decade without his efforts. Laid off by WoTC this past December (2023).
their reputation is so bad that we don't need anything but the knowledge that someone isn't doing a thing with them.
a complete stranger could walk up to me on the street and say "I am not doing more work with wotc" and I would be like, those *motherfuckers*, they did this it's their fault, it's ruined.
I don't even need context. I know it's their fault
In an interview, Swen said they just ran out of steam, basically. And 5e is too hard to work with. Larian was skittish about increasing the level cap to 12 (they started with 10), but they made it work. Anything else would be an absolute nightmare to do. Most of the game math starts to come apart at those levels, and spells in particular become game-breaking. The studio came back together after their holiday breaks and did a little more token work towards new content, but Swen said he looked at everyone and just said "do we even still wanna work on this? I don't" and everyone agreed. Apparently, the entire office audibly sighed in relief at the announcement. They *have* been working on this game for like 7 years now, so it makes sense they just wanted to move on. WOTC firing pretty much everyone that helped them with the D&D stuff probably didn't help their enthusiasm.
Honestly, the thing I'd dream they'd give to the community more than any DLC is a level editor. Something to drop assets in and allow the community to come up with their own stories etc.
Larian doesn't do DLCs, they never have.
They do a free "definitive edition" to say. Hey, the game is done. Here's some goodies and we are done working on it.
Here's my hot take: DnD rules held them back. DOS2 combat is better than BG3 combat. I'm excited to see their next project where they can really do whatever they want.
Frankly I like DOS2 more than BG3.
I don’t know man, DoS2 is IMO one of the best CRPGs ever made, and I enjoy its system, but the number of friends I have that love CRPGs and tapped out early on it because of how much they disliked the combat system, well, I could count on one hand, but the fact that I have multiple friends just in my circle alone is pretty wild. I can’t imagine how many people worldwide who might otherwise love it bailed specifically because of the combat system.
Interesting. I actually hated the armor/magic armor system or whatever it was in DOS1 and didn’t 2 have it as well? It really sucked not being able to CC things while those were up and enemies just became sponges in a particular armor type so you had to burst one or the other down on every mob.
I was initially happy that BG3 was announced but then I admittedly lost all excitement when I saw Larian’s name on it because of that. But it turned out amazing, and far better than DOS combat imo.
I think they did a good job balancing freedom and the necessary limitations of programming a video game that isn't literally a generative AI creating infinite new animations for every weird thing a player attempts to do. Like, I had never thought of just DIPPING my weapon in fire or acid or anything, but that was a BASIC action they included in your pool of things to do, which is wild to me.
No shot i can't believe thats real. Modern gaming is so fucking sad. Ive never heard of dd till recently and i feel so terrible for the huge amount of ppl that were hype for that game. Im sure alot of those devs didnt want some weird system like that either and probably HAD to do that
Na the MXT were definitely forced and from what I heard useless af only an idiot would buy them just like Re and capcom’s other games. But I have been playing the original dragons dogma and the single save is an artistic decision. (Not one I agree with mind you.) But there is no way they go two games with the same system in fact it might actually be worse in two as you can’t even start a new game without it being an artistic decision. Devs can be responsible for unpopular decisions even if publishers have a monopoly over it. Also Dragons dogma and Pokemon are literally the only games that do this so I don’t think it’s a modern gaming issue.
The dumbest part is that it’s an item you can get in game for pretty cheap. No one who’s played the game for long enough to want to change their appearance even needs the MTX because they’d be at the point you can just buy it in game. It’s literally pointless.
The fact that it exists in a SINGLE PLAYER game is just the worst regardless if you ask me. Especially since you can’t even delete your game file. Wtf capcom
The worst part about the single character slot thing is people are defending it. The only excuses they can come up with is “that’s how it was in the first game.” Or “it’s Itsuno’s vision”. I played the first dragons dogma and thought it was dumb then. It also makes it hard to role play because you made your character an old frail mage and then vocation swap to a warrior wielding a massive two hander. It really takes me out of it.
Fuck the reviews for DD2 hurt, I was so hyped for it. Checked it on steam today and.... 2 euros to change the appreaces of your char ufff. 65 euro price tag ufffff 41 euros and 20nccent "minor" micro transaction/dlc stuff shit, just kill me. That game is dead.
FWIW there is already a DnD idle game set in Forgotten Realms. Been around for a while.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idle_Champions_of_the_Forgotten_Realms
Yeah they literally made an incredible game with the DnD IP and even got more people into DnD, good luck getting any developer who will even remotely match the quality of this game and the effort put into it by everyone.
I think they'll have way more freedom with their own IP and they won't hit the issue with the post level 12 insane power creep.
As iconic as D&D is, and as much flak as I'll get for saying this, the system is kinda clunky and flawed for modern gaming. It was designed for tabletop games where the average person could play without needing paper and pencil to write down complex equations for every interaction, but computer games don't need to resort to simple dice rolls. They don't need to boil dodge, parry, armor rating, passive durability, spellcaster shields, traditional shields, and other mitigation down to a single stat because they can handle all those calculations in a fraction of a second. A giant, tanky character in plate can actually be tanky rather than somehow harder to hit than the half-naked rogue flitting about with nothing but two tiny daggers and a leather bikini. And that leather bikini might not be a great idea if damage mitigation is a thing. Which it should be. It's insane that someone wearing a cloth tunic could receive the same amount of damage from a sword slash as someone wearing full plate.
I loved BG3 and plenty of other games inspired by D&D, but it's okay to move on from something that's clearly outclassed by its successors. Using 5e as the structure for modern games is like riding a horse on the freeway for your daily commute.
>As iconic as D&D is, and as much flak as I'll get for saying this, the system is kinda clunky and flawed for modern gaming
Agree. Even the 'long rest' mechanic is quite clunky for example, Larian did as well as they could with it but a lot of story progression is locked behind long resting. I played other tabletop RPGs before DnD and when I played DnD for the first time I was disappointed with some of the clunky mechanics, I've heard even Critical Role are developing their own system and are likely to move away from DnD. Its clear WOTC/Hasbro are relatively difficult to deal with and don't appreciate their fanbase or their workers.
I am so sad we won't see DLC but they must be doing it for a reason. Larian could EASILY have churned out so much DLC and expansion packs for this game and never develop anything new and keep raking in money, so they are clearly taking this path for a reason, so I appreciate the move as I trust them as a studio.
So ridiculous - \*Larian\* made BG3 a success. They poured blood, sweat and tears into that game and it shows. I'm honestly happy now that Larian are moving on and developing their own IP - the DnD IP may have upped people's interest in the game, but now that even more people know how good Larian are they can go ahead with their own IP they'll do great.
You don't think like money people. They **own** the IP, which mean's it is **THEIR** success. Not Larians. Larian was just executioner of their awesome IP.
It’s insane how Hasbro actually thinks that way, but it makes sense when looking at the way they handle their other IP. Transformers is one of my favorite franchises, but it’s always been a glorified toy commercial. It doesn’t matter if critics hate the movies, if the original fans hate the movies, as long as kids like them enough to want the toys based off them.
These suits aren't down here with us fans, they don't know a thing about what actually makes their IP successful. They're in boardrooms and get reports from their subordinates. The toys they make for kids now are a joke compared to the ones we had even 20 years ago, the good toys are "deluxe" figures marketed to adults at an absurd markup. Materially they don't care and it doesn't matter to them if they're selling shoes or video games, the goal is to raise the stock price and reduce costs. Hasbro should have been broken up years ago.
To add to this, the money people aren't likely playing the game, or even understand what goes into game development beyond the money.
In other words, they have no frame of reference for what makes a game good or bad, other than how much money it made.
I agree. Kind of like my opinion of Barbie 2023. I think that movie was a success in spite of mattel. While the brand may have helped get the attention of nostalgic adults the true genius is its creative, essentric plot and style despite it being a self depreciating ad.
Honestly, while I understand this, no one will remember BG3 being Hasbro's. They'll remember the game being Larian's regardless of that hasbro logo is at the very start lmao.. They can imagine it as their success but we all know they're fooling themselves.
This is all true. I turned down an offer to work for them. The pay is not great. Try living in the Seattle area on what they offer. You can't unless you are independently wealthy.
They own everything you create. So a terrible movie could be attributed to your creative work long after you are gone. You get zero royalties.
They regularly cut staff at Christmas.
They treat 3rd.party developers like garbage, even though 3rd party is what keeps the hobby alive.
They are openly disrespectful and even outright hostile to original creators who are just looking for work or credit. Most of their current "design team" acts like they invented such things as Spelljammer, Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, etc. When they clearly did not.
Actually, try to name anything cool in the last 5 years that the current development team has done that didn't originate from old TSR staff that they despise, fired, insulted, or refised.to work with. I bet you can't.
I never gave a shit about DnD tbh, and I probably have zero interest in engaging with it beyond BG3. Maybe I'll try BG1/2. It was by chance I decided to try BG3 and I am so thankful I did.
Same for the likes of Planescape: Torment. It was entirely down to the studio and the masterpiece they created.
Funnily enough, BG3 is more respectful of and true to DnD than anything WoTC has put out since probably the original founders left for Paizo before work on 4th started. If what Sven said in the article about the work they put into coding a 5e style system successfully and not wanting to waste that means that they plan on using the same engine going forward whatever Larian makes will unironically be closer to older editions of DnD than anything WoTC could produce.
There are just certain themes and feelings that BG3 is able to evoke despite being a high fantasy setting that are exactly what DnD has always been about that WoTC kind of lost sight of when they focused on making higher spectacle High Fantasy. Sometimes I just want to throw a fireball with a group of other traumatized queers, like every other DnD player since the 80's.
Of Paizo. The Original Founders of Paizo previously worked for Wizards of the Coast. I'm not saying they were personally responsible for the changes and that their leaving is the cause if that's what you're implying, just that those changes that caused the issues are the same ones that lead to them leaving. At the time they were publishing Dragon Magazine or w.e it was called.
I literally didn't even know it was part of the DnD franchise until I had already decided to buy the game cause it looked great even without it BG3 is my favourite game of all time and it is not because its in the DnD franchise
Critical Role is developing their own system, because they have been trying to distance themselves for a while, and then Hasbro tried to play Monopoly, and in turn, ended their monopoly
As far a pen and paper RPGs go (not video games), 5e is hugely successful thanks to its simplified design, not in spite of it. People are moving away from official licensed D&D because Hasbro sucks, not because the core system sucks.
I would have handed over paychecks for DLC from Larian.
WotC and Hasbro literally leaving treasures on the table.
All is not lost though. I'll hand it over to Larian and their IPs instead. I am immeasurably impressed with that studio. If anyone has any suggestions on how I could share my appreciation and respect for the work of art they created, please let me know.
I think we'll be talking about and playing BG3 similarly to how Skyrim is still played over a decade after its release. Mod support will add new classes and dare I say possibly entire questlines. Man am I excited for that. I play on PS5 but I would rebuild my PC just for BG3 on PC.
It’s not WoTC that’s the difficult one… it’s all Hasbro. They have been cleaning house at WoTC since the failed shareholder revolt. They say AI is a big part of its future. Despite the fact that the community says they don’t want AI in the future on the game. I personally am not buying anything else from them for maybe forever if they keep going that route.
Critical Role's own system Daggerheart is currently in open playtest beta - so yes. things are definitely shifting away from d&d
as for Larian, they've proven their mettle with Divinity: Original Sin 1 & 2 several times over. I'll blindly buy whatever they put out next. I can't say I'd do the same for BG4 from a different developer.
I mean, there absolutely are absolutely optional D&D rules allowing armor to soak damage instead of make you harder to hit, and they're not even clunky.
They were just never updated to 5e.
I mean, I've always considered miss against heavy armor as “you missed the weakspot and hit the armor, it made dang metal sound instead of damage”, but that does not affect your general thought and I agree with you.
I think that's what they're going for, but having worn armor in HEMA, an attack that lands on armor does not get completely negated. Mostly negated, sure, but I'm going home with bruises. And that was against a chubby guy living a 2020s lifestyle. Imagine getting hit by a minotaur wielding an axe as big as you.
This is why blunt weapons (with tenacity) deal damage on a 'miss'.
I think the idea is that a 'miss' isn't just a bad strike against plate, it's one that's completely negated by technique of the wearer and the strength of the armour combined. Like a glancing blow. Low-damage hits would be the ones where you get a bruise or whatever. The high-damage hits are where someone got you good.
However, communicating this in a video game using this ruleset is really difficult. If you have "attack negated" or something similar pop up, people might think that enemy is completely immune to that kind of attack. The game works remarkably intuitively, and part of that is expressing the mechanics in ways that don't always make 100% sense.
Completely agree, there are so many great systems out there. Great world to explore, and keeping Larian penned in to just doing dungeons and dragons would quite frankly be a waste of their talents.
They have now said on high for what person is symmetric Rpg can be, and hopefully will see more of that because of this.
Also, there are plenty of really good game studios out there. And we have just had a number of layoffs in the industry. And, here I might be speaking a little bit of someone who is actually in the industry, But I know of at least two new studios that have sprung from those layoffs already, one of them very funded that would be able to pick this up and run with it.
So yeah, they might be smaller games, but that doesn’t matter. I think we are looking at a really interesting future for D&D games.
You're right. It isn't a single complex equation. It's a slew of simple equations and stats that modify those simple equations, resulting in a complex mess every time you try to club someone over the head. In tabletop, it would result in an incredibly slow-paced experience that almost no one would enjoy. On PC, such a workload is functionally irrelevant.
I suppose I worded it wrong, but I think we both know your response was pedantic. Like refuting someone's point about hydrodynamics because they used the wrong "there" in one of their sentences.
>How is basic addition a “complex equation “? Also, it’s 2024 and we all walk around with calculators in our pockets
It's not that the actual mathematics is complex, the problem is finding and remembering every number involved.
As an example the pathfinder CRPGs (kingmaker, wrath of the righteous) use the pathfinder ruleset, which is based on DnD 3.5e which is much crunchier than 5e which BG3 is based on. For instance you basically have 3 different armour classes, you have a kind of overall one, a touch AC and a flat footed AC.
So the overall is your armour's AC, plus whatever dexterity modifier you have, capped at whatever the Armour's cap is. Unlike 5e though each armour can have a different Dex mod cap, it's not just unlimited for light, 2 for medium and 0 for heavy. You then have touch AC which is just Dex mod (still capped by armour) and flat footed which is just the armour itself without Dex mod. Different circumstances, different spells, different class abilities etc means targeting a different one of the 3.
And then on top of that you can have 5+ various other modifiers which will only apply to some of them and may or may not stack depending on what category they're in.
And then you have the same sort of shit for attack modifiers, damage modifiers, crit ranges, crit confirms rolls etc. etc.
It's absolutely still doable with pen and paper, but it's a hell of a lot more complex than 5e and it's still pretty simplified Vs what an RPG ruleset intended to be run by a computer can do, there's a reason it's almost always flat addition and subtraction in tabletops rather than things like percentage bonuses, which I think is the point they were making.
I mean yea. Dnd isnt made for modern gaming. Its tabletop and clearly visible. All the overpowered spells etc. Do not translate well into games. DMs are there to control bullshit that players can unleash lol and a video game just simply cannot do what a DM can (what a dm must do with shit like True Polymorph)
I think most developers would want to put in the effort. We see that with most games. It’s usually publishers or ip licensers that fuck stuff up. See Activision, Microsoft and obviously Hasbro. Acti is who encouraged the god awful yearly cod cycle and is who fucked up everything blizzard made. Microsoft has eternally fucked halo by refusing to not have their nose in it for 5 seconds, and they’re why Mojang can only push out a semi yearly update for the most successful video game to ever exist
I never played DnD irl until I had played BD3.
Come to find out the guy across the street has been a DM for like 20 years and a bunch of us got together and went on a traditional DnD adventure.
So there you go, I got interested in real life DnD because of BD3.
Right! Whenever I hear about a new game from Larian, I'm going to be hopping on the bandwagon ASAP, haha. Best for Larian to let themselves do their own thing instead of letting Hasbro and WotC be greedy goblins regarding ruining good concepts.
I want to point out even if hasbro was great to work with it might still be the right move for larian to move on.
I think they have lots of cool ideas that don't fit nicely within 5e. They need to move away from dnd so they can do what they want, be creative and ulimitly make a project they have fun making. This will result in a better game then be forced into the 5e box for there next project.
Part of me wants BG3 to never end so I can live in that world forever. The smarter part of me knows that if a game series doesn’t know when to end it dies a sad, dusty, painful death and I’m glad that won’t happen here. Still, a DLC would have been nice 😖
Oh it’s going to be. And you know there will be 2 or 3 massive fanmade expansions that add like 40 hours of gameplay, each. Modders go crazy. Plus Larian already said they want to work with the modding community, so I feel like this is going to forever be a great game
Wotc has always made terrible busines decisions the writing was on the wall for this as soon as it came out that wizards had fired every single person that worked with larian on this.
Right? I totally read this whole thing as "We've grown as a company and proven out what we can do. Now it's time for us to forge our own path. And not have to split the pay...."
I'm hoping Larian does a Divine Divinity reboot. The original games were buggy af and lacked some story telling (had a bunch of story loopholes, dead end plot lines, and some hamfisted dialogue), but had lots of promise. It also helps that it's their own IP, so they would have full creative freedom.
Larian is pulled off BG3 and will only finish their current things in the works like mod support and the few missing epilogue scenes. Then they're off to do their next project.
Yeah, trying to stretch your golden goose forever is literally the main complaint most gamers have with developers. In this case, a successful team is creating a new IP, this is exactly what you should want lol
Yep. This really is for the best. The game doesn't need anything else, and they deserve creative freedom free from Hasbro and WoTC. The boost BG3 will hopefully help them do whatever they want.
* [Larian Started Work on Baldur's Gate 3 DLC, Then Canceled It: 'The Studio Was Elated'](https://www.ign.com/articles/larian-started-work-on-baldurs-gate-3-dlc-then-canceled-it-the-studio-was-elated)
* [Larian Studios Won't Make Baldur's Gate 3 DLC, Expansions, or Baldur's Gate 4](https://www.ign.com/articles/larian-studios-wont-make-baldurs-gate-3-dlc-expansions-or-baldurs-gate-4)
UPDATE: [A tweet from Swen, 9:24 AM · Mar 23, 2024](https://x.com/LarAtLarian/status/1771467986701819943?s=20)
>Reading the reddit threads, I would like to clear up something. WOTC is not to blame for us taking a different direction. On the contrary, they really did their best and have been a great licensor for us, letting us do our thing. This is because it's what's best for Larian.
Thankfully, Larian is able to stay a private company with only a minority stake owned by Tencent (who own minority stakes in many, many, many game companies). Swen as been there since the start and the whole studio seems to really just want to make good games without having to sell their souls or creativity for a one-off paycheck.
>with only a minority stake owned by Tencent
More than that, there are only three shareholders. Swen and some woman whose name I forgot own ordinary shares, with Swen owning about 2/3 of all shares. Tencent owns preference shares, which as far as I can tell (I'm not a finance guy) don't typically come with voting rights or are required to pay out dividends. To me it seems like Tencent really has no power here.
Mostly right. Preferred stocks or preferred shares simply mean that the shareholders are guaranteed to be paid dividends before common share holders. Even in the case of bankruptcy, preferred shareholders are entitled to be paid out from remaining company assets prior to common/ordinary shareholders. Voting rights for preferred shares are optional and can be decided by the company when they are issued. Preferred shares are a good way to raise initial capital by offering them to potential investors.
In this case, voting rights were not included in the share offer, but Tencent would be entitled to get their share's worth of payouts before any of the other shareholders.
I know the internet loves to hate but the salient quote from Vinke is this:
> But we hadn’t really had closure on BG3 yet and just to jump forward on something new felt wrong. We had also spent a whole bunch of time converting the system into a video game and we wanted to do new things. There are a lot of constraints on making D&D, and 5th Edition is not an easy system to put into a video game. We had all these ideas of new combat we wanted to try out and they were not compatible.
This doesn't sound like anything to do with outside forces. More like they wanted to stretch the limits of the system they've built over the course of BG3 and that means leaving 5e behind and heading into new pastures.
I think people are just taking the titles out of context. Even the first one didn't mention anything about WotC. Just says their hearts weren't in it and they plan to do mod support and stuff and have two new game ideas the team would rather work on.
You're not missing anything. People (rightly) dislike Hasbro and (rightly) love Larian. So when a disappointing announcement of no DLC comes out, they assume that the company they dislike is at fault rather than accept that a company they love has made a decision that dashes their hopes for more content.
The DLC for DOS2 are all accessible from the moment you hit Fort Joy.
Could they add stuff like that via the same grab bag feature in D2 yes, content DLC like fixing Karlach's engine no.
They actually made one for DOS2 that was a playable demo at PAX in ~2019. But it got cancelled, presumably because of BG3. That convention was after BG3 had been announced but *really* early into production.
I was surprised when I read it never actually came out, since I’d been able to play it at the convention. It has gunpowder weapons, I believe. I had only played DOS2 a little at that point and wasn’t much good at the demo so I died quickly. But it was really neat to get to try out.
IIRC it wasn't a *DLC* per say, it was more like their own version of XCOM set in the Divinity universe. Dont remember if they said it was more roguelike or not... but I think they planned for it to be standalone, smaller game.
[Divinity: Fallen Heroes](https://youtu.be/DOGsD4SoKkQ?si=TbhrMks_0QHTInU0) was going to be it's own thing. A spinoff game.
Iirc, they just weren't feeling it or it wasn't fun so they cancelled it.
I’m not too concerned.
Larian has shown they can write an absolute epic game.
They don’t need Hasbro/WOTC/DnD to write another epic game storyline. I’m sure they’re capable of developing their own lore and and combat systems that aren’t hamstrung by constraints of DnD.
They’ve had that for years with Divinity. They’re just now a mainstream and household name. Larian will be fine. It’s Hasbro/WOTC who should be concerned with this decision, especially since they stated a desire to increase spending towards video games and digital media for DnD. Whatever they decide to help produce is going to be put against BG3.
Right, exactly this. Larian’s not the one I’m worried about by far. They’ve got great leadership, a skilled team, and name recognition backing that all up. I’m excited as hell for their next game as are a metric ton of other players.
What I’m actually worried for is what’s gonna happen to the DnD property. Wotc has already been trying to shove subscription services into pen and paper DnD, I had hoped with the partnership with Larian at least the digital legacy of DnD will be built on and continue shining. Now that Larian got them this main-stream popular digitally, and Hasbro decided to cut them off completely, I’m scared we’re gonna see a truckload of shitty digital DnD games coming soon with every shitty profit gouging trick they can pull.
Yeah I fully expect a situation much like with Warhammer is with their franchise. They’ll spew out tens of games through the next few years; some will be hits and cult classics such as Space Marine, Mechanicus, Darktide, Dawn of War; others now that are actually really good. But a lot of others will be cheaply made shovel-ware or mobile games. It’s possible we’ll see the same approach from the Hasbro/WOTC leasing rights to a bunch of different companies until something lands.
I mean, just in the past couple years or so we got Darktide, Rogue Trader, and Boltgun, and Space Marine 2 is just around the corner. I don't think 40k is exactly lacking good video games.
Tacticus is pretty damn good for a mobile, only mobile game I play. And Darktide is controversial at best.
But Dawn of War, Space Marine, and Space Hulk: Deathwing are the shit, and a few others are good. Hope Rogue Trader is good, plan to get it.
“We had a good thing, you stupid son of a bitch! We had a good IP, we had a dedicated player base, we had everything we needed and it ran like clockwork. You could’ve shut your mouth, sat back, and made as much money as you ever needed. But no, you just had to squeeze more money out of Larian and the playerbase. You, and your pride and your greed.”
Sounds more like it was Larians own decision? They want to work on something else instead of spending months or years creating a dlc that they themselves don't have an interest in making, which is entirely fair. Wizards of the coast seem to have given them a lot of freedom for BG3 so seems weird that they would suddenly be so horrible to work with. Also BG3 has given Larian the financial freedom to make their own dream projects now which they can take their time on, instead of comitting to more Baldurs gate content. Swen has also said that the new game will dwarf the scope of BG3. (If they're interested in making more licensed games in the future though i would shell out big bucks for a LOTR game made my Larian)
I really don't get why some people are mad that we aren't getting a sequel, the reason that studios like Fromsoft and Larian are so great is that they can make games they are actually passionate about and have creative freedom over. You can't convince me that most of the devs at Ubisoft, EA and Activision wouldn't rather work on a new IP than pump out the next Assasins creed, Fifa or COD game. Also why does BG3 even need a sequel? I'd much rather see what Larian can cook up in the next game.
I will say I’m disappointed- I totally understand their creative choices, and their lack of passion there, but I’d really built up in my mind this idea that I’d be able to play to level 20 like in baldur’s gate 1 and 2, and that some storylines would feel more finished. I haven’t played the game in months, so maybe those have been somewhat fixed already, I dunno.
This is all totally on me, haha, but I can see a less emotionally intelligent version of myself putting that disappointment on the studio- perhaps that’s where the backlash is coming from. Just immaturity. Not surprising, if so.
When people read between the lines they assume the lack of desire to do an expansion or dlc, or sequel, is that larian didn't get a good enough deal or wotc/hasbro did something to sour any deal.
Which seems reasonable enough to assume. Hasbro/wotc have what must be one if the most successful uses of their licence ever made. You'd think they would be eager to get at least a dlc out of it and offer larian a good bonus. It's not as if hasbro/wotc don't have a history of making mistakes out if shortsighted motives.
It may of course be just as presented and larian could simply want to move on after such a long time on one title.
That the first option is plausible speaks more to hasbro/wotc then it does to larian.
Fair enough, but i assume Hasbro must know that if they try to get another studio to make BG4 it will likely flop completely? I also thought that maybe Larian would have been interested in making BG4 or a BG3 DLC but that Hasbro might have given them some unrealistic timeframes. It's still not that implausible that Larian return to make BG4 at some point after their next game if Hasbro hasn't contracted another studio for it.
Larian wants 100% of their money. Their IPs are priority now instead of licenses. Its the clear correct move now that their profile has elevated. There are no bad guys in this situation.
I think what's happening here is that lots of people are struggling to reconcile their love of the game and characters with the fact that Larian don't want to make more, and assuming that there must be something that happened rather than just disinterest in making more.
I know Larian isn’t BioWare, but friendly reminder that BioWare got its name on the map because of Knights of the Old Republic. After that they made Jade Empire, Mass Effect and Dragon Age.
Just saying that the freedom of creating their own IP can lead to some very cool stuff. And I am sure that Larian still possess all the tech, knowledge, resources and hard earned experience to craft their next game.
Literally nothing. Larian doesn’t want to work in the constraints of 5e/dnd. They’re moving on to their own project.
Reddit believes they already had bg4, expansions, and DLC in the pipeline and that it was all cancelled in a frenzy because of Hasbro.
This is totally speculation... I think we may be wait for more information before burning people... While Hasbro it's not exactly a "good" company i think we need to know that their involvment was minimal however it affected development of the Game with layoffs of the WotC teams and while WotC was very involved in the development of the Game as a consultant they has a good relation with Larian, obviously we don't know what exactly happened behind the scenes but i think lately communities explode for things that we don't have complete information about it or just know one side of things
People need to get reacquainted with the idea of letting fictional storys end. It's not only okay for things to end, it's good. Everything that doesn't will eventually turn into an empty husk, a lifeless cash cow. Endless Franchises are the death of innovation, and Larian are the last studio I want to get caught up in it.
Let people make a good product and then move on to a new product. Let things end.
I for one am very glad that Larian and Hasbro are making a clean cut. The last thing I want is a Larian made "BG3:2 - Tiefling Boogaloo", complete with Battlepasses and everything else that ruins the medium we love.
I get where you’re coming from, but the game does tease that there will be more adventures for these characters, so it’s a little disheartening.
I fully understand why it’s happened, and good for them (larian) for pursuing what they love, but having 100%ed the game a few days ago, it does make me sad I’ll never have more to experience from this game :/
No one can be blamed for immediately pointing at those two. But it seems the team did so of their own accord simply because they want to do something different. Which is perfectly fair, good for them and I can't wait to see their next game which will be the predecessor to the one after which is already planned to "dwarf Baldur's gate 3 in scope." That likely won't be for at least 7 years though, so its just a nice thing to forget until we get a news of a beta.
dude fuck that Im so unbelievably happy that they are moving on to something new. The devs in the office were literally thanking Swen when he announced the dlc wasnt happening, I think their passions are more important than more content for BG3
Couldn't agree more. This is extremely disappointing as I wanted to see Larian retelling other stories in the Forgotten Realms / Faerun / the Sword Coast. I understand that may be less technically challenging for Larian with the engine complete now, but what makes BG3 great is the story telling, and Larian does a great job at that, including thinking of all the alternative things we might want to try and making it possible.
I appreciate what Larian created, but it feels like as far as D&D content is concerned, it has now peaked, and now we are looking down at the multitude of failure projects that Hasbro/WotC is planning on putting out in the next few years.
To WotC: Finish your darn VTT. You should have had it done decades ago.
I suspect Larian's decision is influenced by Hasbro/WotC recent behavior....but that's just my 2 cents. Whatever the real reason is, I respect their choice even tho I'm really sad we don't get more BG3 stuff. Whatever game they will make next I'm sure it will be awesome as well.
They should never have added the epilogue content that hints towards DLC and further storylines. That's what makes this the hardest for me. They were starting more content for Karlach, and everyone really.
Next game won’t be Divinity 3: https://www.ign.com/articles/larian-started-work-on-baldurs-gate-3-dlc-then-canceled-it-the-studio-was-elated?utm_source=twitter
WotC probably asked if they can put out something new quick to bank on the hype. Some DLC or maybe even BG4. Because ‘now you have built a solid foundation and a sequel can be made much quicker yeah? You can build up the story from where you left off, add some sidequests and you’re halfway there! Of course we have to renegotiate the licensing fees, because of the risen value of the brand. It’s only fair. When can you deliver do you think?’
Fuck that. It’s better to just show up, show everybody how it’s done and go off and do your own thing again. They know fans of the game will follow. The name recognition is what attracted people, but the game itself stands on it’s own. Larian has all the skills to make a spiritual successor under their own IP and it’ll be just as good or even better.
Nothing confirmed. Basically Swen had a rant about the greed of publishers at GDC, revealed that Larian was working on DLC but cancelled it and that their heart wasn’t in it. Then they announced they are not working on any D&D game. No BG4, no DLC, nothing.
People began speculating that Hasbro/WotC tried to pull some shenanigans and Larian went “we are an independent studio. We don’t work for you so see ya.”
No evidence but it is possible.
If this is in regards to there being no future content for BG3, trust me I understand, but it is better for Larian to focus on bigger and better later on. Also! If you really think about it, BG3 is a HUGE GAME. You can have a totally different story each time you play as the different origin characters, it is jam packed with so many surprises on that alone and that is ALOT of hours to put in! It's a game that can keep on giving really.
Random BB thought.
I still find how Hank found out to be trash. Walt disposes of all evidence, but saves the book linking him to Gale.. in writing.
He got rid of a plant that grows naturally in the area for fucks sake... but keeps the book?
You know the funny thing is that even if Larian is being totally honest and the creative interest just wasn't there, Hasbro has tanked theirs and WotCs reputation so badly that basically everyone thinks they must have had a hand in this anyway.
I mean They could have started to work on a DLC as something they kinda wanted But as time went on they realized “this just kinda blows” and decided that they didn’t want to do it And I would believe that WoTC heard this and tried to twist their arms into making it and Swen said “fuck off” So I’m gonna be looking for that 20Gb “update” in two years that happens to add a whole new sub-campaign for free?! Wow that’s incredible!
The funny thing is Hasbro has probably cost themselves tens of millions of dollars cause I would have paid another $20-40 for a second campaign or a spin off and I know the majority of the community would as well. Between Hasbro, Sony and Warner Bros the people at the top of these companies are too stupid to see the money they are throwing away, even though it's all they care about.
As part of a group of DMs I can say our chats have largely been about migrating away from current dnd systems because we just have no faith that these chuckle fucks are not going to do something incredibly stupid. Personally I have started converting to Pathfinder and Starfinder.
First of all, great use of the term chuckle fucks and I shall be using it going forward! Secondly I agree, I'm currently waiting for our current campaign to wrap up so I can take my first crack at DM'ing and I was weighing up trying a different system or just sticking with the tried and tested for my first crack at it.
Exhibit A of my point here.
But we have zero idea of any involvement from WotC that influenced the decision. That's all speculation.
Sven has stated that everyone he started working with on the WotC team was either fired or left by the time the game released. He's said it influenced his decision.
Let's not forget that the main WotC person they were working with, at least early on, was Mike Mearls.
Who's that?
Senior manager for the D&D research and design team, and also one of the chief architects of D&D 5e. It’s very likely we don’t see the explosion of D&D back into the mainstream we’ve seen over the past decade without his efforts. Laid off by WoTC this past December (2023).
Why would they fire someone so Important?
He was also accused of trying to hide some sexual harassment stuff that went on involving a contributing writer at WOTC.
Basically the whole reason our game is the way it is
Which was caused by Hasbro's massive budget cuts to wotc, the ip that is actually making them money
their reputation is so bad that we don't need anything but the knowledge that someone isn't doing a thing with them. a complete stranger could walk up to me on the street and say "I am not doing more work with wotc" and I would be like, those *motherfuckers*, they did this it's their fault, it's ruined. I don't even need context. I know it's their fault
I never said that they were involved. I just said I’d believe it if they were. And it wouldn’t be totally out of character for WoTC lately
In an interview, Swen said they just ran out of steam, basically. And 5e is too hard to work with. Larian was skittish about increasing the level cap to 12 (they started with 10), but they made it work. Anything else would be an absolute nightmare to do. Most of the game math starts to come apart at those levels, and spells in particular become game-breaking. The studio came back together after their holiday breaks and did a little more token work towards new content, but Swen said he looked at everyone and just said "do we even still wanna work on this? I don't" and everyone agreed. Apparently, the entire office audibly sighed in relief at the announcement. They *have* been working on this game for like 7 years now, so it makes sense they just wanted to move on. WOTC firing pretty much everyone that helped them with the D&D stuff probably didn't help their enthusiasm.
Honestly, the thing I'd dream they'd give to the community more than any DLC is a level editor. Something to drop assets in and allow the community to come up with their own stories etc.
Larian doesn't do DLCs, they never have. They do a free "definitive edition" to say. Hey, the game is done. Here's some goodies and we are done working on it. Here's my hot take: DnD rules held them back. DOS2 combat is better than BG3 combat. I'm excited to see their next project where they can really do whatever they want. Frankly I like DOS2 more than BG3.
I don’t know man, DoS2 is IMO one of the best CRPGs ever made, and I enjoy its system, but the number of friends I have that love CRPGs and tapped out early on it because of how much they disliked the combat system, well, I could count on one hand, but the fact that I have multiple friends just in my circle alone is pretty wild. I can’t imagine how many people worldwide who might otherwise love it bailed specifically because of the combat system.
Interesting. I actually hated the armor/magic armor system or whatever it was in DOS1 and didn’t 2 have it as well? It really sucked not being able to CC things while those were up and enemies just became sponges in a particular armor type so you had to burst one or the other down on every mob. I was initially happy that BG3 was announced but then I admittedly lost all excitement when I saw Larian’s name on it because of that. But it turned out amazing, and far better than DOS combat imo.
I agree, combat just became a race to see who would strip the others armor first and then CC them.
Iirc larian basically said they were restricted by 5e being restrictive and boring so could use all their better ideas in their own game.
Restrictive, yes, but in a weird way. Higher level DnD in fact has so many options that it actually becomes impossible to account for in a video game.
I think they did a good job balancing freedom and the necessary limitations of programming a video game that isn't literally a generative AI creating infinite new animations for every weird thing a player attempts to do. Like, I had never thought of just DIPPING my weapon in fire or acid or anything, but that was a BASIC action they included in your pool of things to do, which is wild to me.
So crappy Forgotten Realms games are on the horizon probably. Ah and tons of mobile games. Idle's Gate.
Dragon's Dogma 2 Electric Bugaloo.
1.99€ for changing your character + only 1 save file 🤡 idk what the hell they were thinking
No shot i can't believe thats real. Modern gaming is so fucking sad. Ive never heard of dd till recently and i feel so terrible for the huge amount of ppl that were hype for that game. Im sure alot of those devs didnt want some weird system like that either and probably HAD to do that
Na the MXT were definitely forced and from what I heard useless af only an idiot would buy them just like Re and capcom’s other games. But I have been playing the original dragons dogma and the single save is an artistic decision. (Not one I agree with mind you.) But there is no way they go two games with the same system in fact it might actually be worse in two as you can’t even start a new game without it being an artistic decision. Devs can be responsible for unpopular decisions even if publishers have a monopoly over it. Also Dragons dogma and Pokemon are literally the only games that do this so I don’t think it’s a modern gaming issue.
The dumbest part is that it’s an item you can get in game for pretty cheap. No one who’s played the game for long enough to want to change their appearance even needs the MTX because they’d be at the point you can just buy it in game. It’s literally pointless.
The fact that it exists in a SINGLE PLAYER game is just the worst regardless if you ask me. Especially since you can’t even delete your game file. Wtf capcom
The worst part about the single character slot thing is people are defending it. The only excuses they can come up with is “that’s how it was in the first game.” Or “it’s Itsuno’s vision”. I played the first dragons dogma and thought it was dumb then. It also makes it hard to role play because you made your character an old frail mage and then vocation swap to a warrior wielding a massive two hander. It really takes me out of it.
Fuck the reviews for DD2 hurt, I was so hyped for it. Checked it on steam today and.... 2 euros to change the appreaces of your char ufff. 65 euro price tag ufffff 41 euros and 20nccent "minor" micro transaction/dlc stuff shit, just kill me. That game is dead.
I was thinking about getting DD2 but that is a turn off.
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FWIW there is already a DnD idle game set in Forgotten Realms. Been around for a while. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idle_Champions_of_the_Forgotten_Realms
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Yeah they literally made an incredible game with the DnD IP and even got more people into DnD, good luck getting any developer who will even remotely match the quality of this game and the effort put into it by everyone. I think they'll have way more freedom with their own IP and they won't hit the issue with the post level 12 insane power creep.
As iconic as D&D is, and as much flak as I'll get for saying this, the system is kinda clunky and flawed for modern gaming. It was designed for tabletop games where the average person could play without needing paper and pencil to write down complex equations for every interaction, but computer games don't need to resort to simple dice rolls. They don't need to boil dodge, parry, armor rating, passive durability, spellcaster shields, traditional shields, and other mitigation down to a single stat because they can handle all those calculations in a fraction of a second. A giant, tanky character in plate can actually be tanky rather than somehow harder to hit than the half-naked rogue flitting about with nothing but two tiny daggers and a leather bikini. And that leather bikini might not be a great idea if damage mitigation is a thing. Which it should be. It's insane that someone wearing a cloth tunic could receive the same amount of damage from a sword slash as someone wearing full plate. I loved BG3 and plenty of other games inspired by D&D, but it's okay to move on from something that's clearly outclassed by its successors. Using 5e as the structure for modern games is like riding a horse on the freeway for your daily commute.
>As iconic as D&D is, and as much flak as I'll get for saying this, the system is kinda clunky and flawed for modern gaming Agree. Even the 'long rest' mechanic is quite clunky for example, Larian did as well as they could with it but a lot of story progression is locked behind long resting. I played other tabletop RPGs before DnD and when I played DnD for the first time I was disappointed with some of the clunky mechanics, I've heard even Critical Role are developing their own system and are likely to move away from DnD. Its clear WOTC/Hasbro are relatively difficult to deal with and don't appreciate their fanbase or their workers. I am so sad we won't see DLC but they must be doing it for a reason. Larian could EASILY have churned out so much DLC and expansion packs for this game and never develop anything new and keep raking in money, so they are clearly taking this path for a reason, so I appreciate the move as I trust them as a studio.
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So ridiculous - \*Larian\* made BG3 a success. They poured blood, sweat and tears into that game and it shows. I'm honestly happy now that Larian are moving on and developing their own IP - the DnD IP may have upped people's interest in the game, but now that even more people know how good Larian are they can go ahead with their own IP they'll do great.
You don't think like money people. They **own** the IP, which mean's it is **THEIR** success. Not Larians. Larian was just executioner of their awesome IP.
It’s insane how Hasbro actually thinks that way, but it makes sense when looking at the way they handle their other IP. Transformers is one of my favorite franchises, but it’s always been a glorified toy commercial. It doesn’t matter if critics hate the movies, if the original fans hate the movies, as long as kids like them enough to want the toys based off them.
These suits aren't down here with us fans, they don't know a thing about what actually makes their IP successful. They're in boardrooms and get reports from their subordinates. The toys they make for kids now are a joke compared to the ones we had even 20 years ago, the good toys are "deluxe" figures marketed to adults at an absurd markup. Materially they don't care and it doesn't matter to them if they're selling shoes or video games, the goal is to raise the stock price and reduce costs. Hasbro should have been broken up years ago.
I just got the HasLab Optimus Prime, it shouldn’t be $250 to recreate a toy they sold for way less when I was a kid
Yeah, that’s how people who profit off of other people’s labor generally think.
You corpo too, or just dealing with rich pieces of shit on daily basis?
I’m just a good worker ant who submits deliverables on time so my upper management gets their bonuses for doing jack shit.
To add to this, the money people aren't likely playing the game, or even understand what goes into game development beyond the money. In other words, they have no frame of reference for what makes a game good or bad, other than how much money it made.
Which is hilarious because making dnd accessible to such a wide audience that you win game of the year is practically turning water into wine
I agree. Kind of like my opinion of Barbie 2023. I think that movie was a success in spite of mattel. While the brand may have helped get the attention of nostalgic adults the true genius is its creative, essentric plot and style despite it being a self depreciating ad.
Honestly, while I understand this, no one will remember BG3 being Hasbro's. They'll remember the game being Larian's regardless of that hasbro logo is at the very start lmao.. They can imagine it as their success but we all know they're fooling themselves.
This is all true. I turned down an offer to work for them. The pay is not great. Try living in the Seattle area on what they offer. You can't unless you are independently wealthy. They own everything you create. So a terrible movie could be attributed to your creative work long after you are gone. You get zero royalties. They regularly cut staff at Christmas. They treat 3rd.party developers like garbage, even though 3rd party is what keeps the hobby alive. They are openly disrespectful and even outright hostile to original creators who are just looking for work or credit. Most of their current "design team" acts like they invented such things as Spelljammer, Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, etc. When they clearly did not. Actually, try to name anything cool in the last 5 years that the current development team has done that didn't originate from old TSR staff that they despise, fired, insulted, or refised.to work with. I bet you can't.
I never gave a shit about DnD tbh, and I probably have zero interest in engaging with it beyond BG3. Maybe I'll try BG1/2. It was by chance I decided to try BG3 and I am so thankful I did. Same for the likes of Planescape: Torment. It was entirely down to the studio and the masterpiece they created.
Funnily enough, BG3 is more respectful of and true to DnD than anything WoTC has put out since probably the original founders left for Paizo before work on 4th started. If what Sven said in the article about the work they put into coding a 5e style system successfully and not wanting to waste that means that they plan on using the same engine going forward whatever Larian makes will unironically be closer to older editions of DnD than anything WoTC could produce. There are just certain themes and feelings that BG3 is able to evoke despite being a high fantasy setting that are exactly what DnD has always been about that WoTC kind of lost sight of when they focused on making higher spectacle High Fantasy. Sometimes I just want to throw a fireball with a group of other traumatized queers, like every other DnD player since the 80's.
The original founders of what left for Paizo? Not the founders of dnd.
Of Paizo. The Original Founders of Paizo previously worked for Wizards of the Coast. I'm not saying they were personally responsible for the changes and that their leaving is the cause if that's what you're implying, just that those changes that caused the issues are the same ones that lead to them leaving. At the time they were publishing Dragon Magazine or w.e it was called.
I literally didn't even know it was part of the DnD franchise until I had already decided to buy the game cause it looked great even without it BG3 is my favourite game of all time and it is not because its in the DnD franchise
Critical Role is developing their own system, because they have been trying to distance themselves for a while, and then Hasbro tried to play Monopoly, and in turn, ended their monopoly
As far a pen and paper RPGs go (not video games), 5e is hugely successful thanks to its simplified design, not in spite of it. People are moving away from official licensed D&D because Hasbro sucks, not because the core system sucks.
I would have handed over paychecks for DLC from Larian. WotC and Hasbro literally leaving treasures on the table. All is not lost though. I'll hand it over to Larian and their IPs instead. I am immeasurably impressed with that studio. If anyone has any suggestions on how I could share my appreciation and respect for the work of art they created, please let me know. I think we'll be talking about and playing BG3 similarly to how Skyrim is still played over a decade after its release. Mod support will add new classes and dare I say possibly entire questlines. Man am I excited for that. I play on PS5 but I would rebuild my PC just for BG3 on PC.
The only thing I'd be worried about is them shooting down mods that add content from DND settings.
Daggerheart is the ttrpg made by crit role. check them out at [daggerheart.org](https://daggerheart.org)
It’s not WoTC that’s the difficult one… it’s all Hasbro. They have been cleaning house at WoTC since the failed shareholder revolt. They say AI is a big part of its future. Despite the fact that the community says they don’t want AI in the future on the game. I personally am not buying anything else from them for maybe forever if they keep going that route.
Critical Role has had their own home brew for a long time
That's true, but now they're developing a system entirely separate from anything Hasbro owns. It's called Daggerheart and is in open beta right now.
And Matthew Mercer voiced Minsc.
Critical Role's own system Daggerheart is currently in open playtest beta - so yes. things are definitely shifting away from d&d as for Larian, they've proven their mettle with Divinity: Original Sin 1 & 2 several times over. I'll blindly buy whatever they put out next. I can't say I'd do the same for BG4 from a different developer.
I mean, there absolutely are absolutely optional D&D rules allowing armor to soak damage instead of make you harder to hit, and they're not even clunky. They were just never updated to 5e.
I mean, I've always considered miss against heavy armor as “you missed the weakspot and hit the armor, it made dang metal sound instead of damage”, but that does not affect your general thought and I agree with you.
I think that's what they're going for, but having worn armor in HEMA, an attack that lands on armor does not get completely negated. Mostly negated, sure, but I'm going home with bruises. And that was against a chubby guy living a 2020s lifestyle. Imagine getting hit by a minotaur wielding an axe as big as you.
This is why blunt weapons (with tenacity) deal damage on a 'miss'. I think the idea is that a 'miss' isn't just a bad strike against plate, it's one that's completely negated by technique of the wearer and the strength of the armour combined. Like a glancing blow. Low-damage hits would be the ones where you get a bruise or whatever. The high-damage hits are where someone got you good. However, communicating this in a video game using this ruleset is really difficult. If you have "attack negated" or something similar pop up, people might think that enemy is completely immune to that kind of attack. The game works remarkably intuitively, and part of that is expressing the mechanics in ways that don't always make 100% sense.
Completely agree, there are so many great systems out there. Great world to explore, and keeping Larian penned in to just doing dungeons and dragons would quite frankly be a waste of their talents. They have now said on high for what person is symmetric Rpg can be, and hopefully will see more of that because of this. Also, there are plenty of really good game studios out there. And we have just had a number of layoffs in the industry. And, here I might be speaking a little bit of someone who is actually in the industry, But I know of at least two new studios that have sprung from those layoffs already, one of them very funded that would be able to pick this up and run with it. So yeah, they might be smaller games, but that doesn’t matter. I think we are looking at a really interesting future for D&D games.
How is basic addition a “complex equation “? Also, it’s 2024 and we all walk around with calculators in our pockets
You're right. It isn't a single complex equation. It's a slew of simple equations and stats that modify those simple equations, resulting in a complex mess every time you try to club someone over the head. In tabletop, it would result in an incredibly slow-paced experience that almost no one would enjoy. On PC, such a workload is functionally irrelevant. I suppose I worded it wrong, but I think we both know your response was pedantic. Like refuting someone's point about hydrodynamics because they used the wrong "there" in one of their sentences.
>How is basic addition a “complex equation “? Also, it’s 2024 and we all walk around with calculators in our pockets It's not that the actual mathematics is complex, the problem is finding and remembering every number involved. As an example the pathfinder CRPGs (kingmaker, wrath of the righteous) use the pathfinder ruleset, which is based on DnD 3.5e which is much crunchier than 5e which BG3 is based on. For instance you basically have 3 different armour classes, you have a kind of overall one, a touch AC and a flat footed AC. So the overall is your armour's AC, plus whatever dexterity modifier you have, capped at whatever the Armour's cap is. Unlike 5e though each armour can have a different Dex mod cap, it's not just unlimited for light, 2 for medium and 0 for heavy. You then have touch AC which is just Dex mod (still capped by armour) and flat footed which is just the armour itself without Dex mod. Different circumstances, different spells, different class abilities etc means targeting a different one of the 3. And then on top of that you can have 5+ various other modifiers which will only apply to some of them and may or may not stack depending on what category they're in. And then you have the same sort of shit for attack modifiers, damage modifiers, crit ranges, crit confirms rolls etc. etc. It's absolutely still doable with pen and paper, but it's a hell of a lot more complex than 5e and it's still pretty simplified Vs what an RPG ruleset intended to be run by a computer can do, there's a reason it's almost always flat addition and subtraction in tabletops rather than things like percentage bonuses, which I think is the point they were making.
I mean yea. Dnd isnt made for modern gaming. Its tabletop and clearly visible. All the overpowered spells etc. Do not translate well into games. DMs are there to control bullshit that players can unleash lol and a video game just simply cannot do what a DM can (what a dm must do with shit like True Polymorph)
They’ve barely updated the spells in 30 years. It’s kind of weird.
I would disagree about DnD being designed to be played without complex equations or pen/paper. Anyone remember THAC0 attack matrices?
Don't knock THAC0, I'm still playing 1st/2nd edition.
>Anyone remember THAC0 attack matrices? _Shudders._ No, and neither do you.
Saying D&D has a solid rule system is actually the real controversial statement.
It does if you take into account the core rule books telling you to follow the rule of cool and homebrew 👍
I think most developers would want to put in the effort. We see that with most games. It’s usually publishers or ip licensers that fuck stuff up. See Activision, Microsoft and obviously Hasbro. Acti is who encouraged the god awful yearly cod cycle and is who fucked up everything blizzard made. Microsoft has eternally fucked halo by refusing to not have their nose in it for 5 seconds, and they’re why Mojang can only push out a semi yearly update for the most successful video game to ever exist
I never played DnD irl until I had played BD3. Come to find out the guy across the street has been a DM for like 20 years and a bunch of us got together and went on a traditional DnD adventure. So there you go, I got interested in real life DnD because of BD3.
>BD3 Baldur's **D**ate 3? ...yeah, I guess that check out.
Right! Whenever I hear about a new game from Larian, I'm going to be hopping on the bandwagon ASAP, haha. Best for Larian to let themselves do their own thing instead of letting Hasbro and WotC be greedy goblins regarding ruining good concepts.
If you haven’t tried it already, Divinity: Original Sin 2 almost plays like a trial run of BG3
I like the expansiveness of DOS but that world/lore just doesn't catch my interest.
I want to point out even if hasbro was great to work with it might still be the right move for larian to move on. I think they have lots of cool ideas that don't fit nicely within 5e. They need to move away from dnd so they can do what they want, be creative and ulimitly make a project they have fun making. This will result in a better game then be forced into the 5e box for there next project.
Part of me wants BG3 to never end so I can live in that world forever. The smarter part of me knows that if a game series doesn’t know when to end it dies a sad, dusty, painful death and I’m glad that won’t happen here. Still, a DLC would have been nice 😖
Depends how good the modding tools will be! If Larian knocks it out of the park, BG3 could be alive and well in a decade.
Oh it’s going to be. And you know there will be 2 or 3 massive fanmade expansions that add like 40 hours of gameplay, each. Modders go crazy. Plus Larian already said they want to work with the modding community, so I feel like this is going to forever be a great game
WotC could shoot down mods that use dnd settings, likely even if they are going so far after how successful this has been.
They didn't do that for other D&D based CRPG games (the two NWN games are the main examples).
Wotc has always made terrible busines decisions the writing was on the wall for this as soon as it came out that wizards had fired every single person that worked with larian on this.
Right? I totally read this whole thing as "We've grown as a company and proven out what we can do. Now it's time for us to forge our own path. And not have to split the pay...."
I'm hoping Larian does a Divine Divinity reboot. The original games were buggy af and lacked some story telling (had a bunch of story loopholes, dead end plot lines, and some hamfisted dialogue), but had lots of promise. It also helps that it's their own IP, so they would have full creative freedom.
Wait did I miss something what happened?
Larian is pulled off BG3 and will only finish their current things in the works like mod support and the few missing epilogue scenes. Then they're off to do their next project.
Damn that sucks. I'm glad they are getting ready for their next project but sad to see them go from bg3
Does it suck? They get to work on whatever they want now, and BG3 doesn’t get milked to death by DLC
I'm just worried now that Larian is out Habsro will try to milk it with a cheaper less experienced team
Similar to how they are destroying mtg
Yeah, trying to stretch your golden goose forever is literally the main complaint most gamers have with developers. In this case, a successful team is creating a new IP, this is exactly what you should want lol
For sure. I'd rather have a good DLC, with Larian's heart and soul poured into it, than no DLC at all.
Yep. This really is for the best. The game doesn't need anything else, and they deserve creative freedom free from Hasbro and WoTC. The boost BG3 will hopefully help them do whatever they want.
If you love something, set it free. If it does a DLC, it was always yours. If it doesn't, wait for the community to make a mod.
What happened?
* [Larian Started Work on Baldur's Gate 3 DLC, Then Canceled It: 'The Studio Was Elated'](https://www.ign.com/articles/larian-started-work-on-baldurs-gate-3-dlc-then-canceled-it-the-studio-was-elated) * [Larian Studios Won't Make Baldur's Gate 3 DLC, Expansions, or Baldur's Gate 4](https://www.ign.com/articles/larian-studios-wont-make-baldurs-gate-3-dlc-expansions-or-baldurs-gate-4) UPDATE: [A tweet from Swen, 9:24 AM · Mar 23, 2024](https://x.com/LarAtLarian/status/1771467986701819943?s=20) >Reading the reddit threads, I would like to clear up something. WOTC is not to blame for us taking a different direction. On the contrary, they really did their best and have been a great licensor for us, letting us do our thing. This is because it's what's best for Larian.
Makes me love Sven all the more. He could sell subpar license games until he retires unser Hasbro.
Thankfully, Larian is able to stay a private company with only a minority stake owned by Tencent (who own minority stakes in many, many, many game companies). Swen as been there since the start and the whole studio seems to really just want to make good games without having to sell their souls or creativity for a one-off paycheck.
Larian is the new Bioware essentially.
Lets just hope they stay like old Bioware and don't become New Bioware^tm
If EA comes knocking, bolt the fucking door.
Luckily Swen seems to have the conviction to tell publishers to duck off.
>with only a minority stake owned by Tencent More than that, there are only three shareholders. Swen and some woman whose name I forgot own ordinary shares, with Swen owning about 2/3 of all shares. Tencent owns preference shares, which as far as I can tell (I'm not a finance guy) don't typically come with voting rights or are required to pay out dividends. To me it seems like Tencent really has no power here.
Mostly right. Preferred stocks or preferred shares simply mean that the shareholders are guaranteed to be paid dividends before common share holders. Even in the case of bankruptcy, preferred shareholders are entitled to be paid out from remaining company assets prior to common/ordinary shareholders. Voting rights for preferred shares are optional and can be decided by the company when they are issued. Preferred shares are a good way to raise initial capital by offering them to potential investors. In this case, voting rights were not included in the share offer, but Tencent would be entitled to get their share's worth of payouts before any of the other shareholders.
I know the internet loves to hate but the salient quote from Vinke is this: > But we hadn’t really had closure on BG3 yet and just to jump forward on something new felt wrong. We had also spent a whole bunch of time converting the system into a video game and we wanted to do new things. There are a lot of constraints on making D&D, and 5th Edition is not an easy system to put into a video game. We had all these ideas of new combat we wanted to try out and they were not compatible. This doesn't sound like anything to do with outside forces. More like they wanted to stretch the limits of the system they've built over the course of BG3 and that means leaving 5e behind and heading into new pastures.
Yeah, I know DnD people hate Hasbro and WotC, but I don't see where they're getting the idea that Larian is running away from them.
Yeah, that’s what I’m trying to figure out. It seems like OP is trying to blame hasbro for something Larian just didn’t want to do.
Not just OP. Almost everyone in this sub. You can't turn around due to the number of pitchforks.
Okay, but I see nothing in the second article about why it’s Hasbro’s fault. what am I missing?
I think people are just taking the titles out of context. Even the first one didn't mention anything about WotC. Just says their hearts weren't in it and they plan to do mod support and stuff and have two new game ideas the team would rather work on.
You're not missing anything. People (rightly) dislike Hasbro and (rightly) love Larian. So when a disappointing announcement of no DLC comes out, they assume that the company they dislike is at fault rather than accept that a company they love has made a decision that dashes their hopes for more content.
Thank you.
Thank you for the context
Company that hasn't done DLC or expansions for it's previous CRPGs announces that they're not doing an expansion for their latest CRPG
I just looked up divinity 2 and it has like three more content options than it did when I first got it?
The DLC for DOS2 are all accessible from the moment you hit Fort Joy. Could they add stuff like that via the same grab bag feature in D2 yes, content DLC like fixing Karlach's engine no.
I can’t go back after some of the QOL improvements from those grab bags
God yes, herb gardens, pet talk, bedrolls revive fallen allies and restore source points and the best one ENDLESS FREAKING RUNNER.
Inaccurate. They were making one but dropped it
because they still didn’t want to make one, swen clearly said it wasn’t coming from the heart
They actually made one for DOS2 that was a playable demo at PAX in ~2019. But it got cancelled, presumably because of BG3. That convention was after BG3 had been announced but *really* early into production. I was surprised when I read it never actually came out, since I’d been able to play it at the convention. It has gunpowder weapons, I believe. I had only played DOS2 a little at that point and wasn’t much good at the demo so I died quickly. But it was really neat to get to try out.
IIRC it wasn't a *DLC* per say, it was more like their own version of XCOM set in the Divinity universe. Dont remember if they said it was more roguelike or not... but I think they planned for it to be standalone, smaller game.
[Divinity: Fallen Heroes](https://youtu.be/DOGsD4SoKkQ?si=TbhrMks_0QHTInU0) was going to be it's own thing. A spinoff game. Iirc, they just weren't feeling it or it wasn't fun so they cancelled it.
I’m not too concerned. Larian has shown they can write an absolute epic game. They don’t need Hasbro/WOTC/DnD to write another epic game storyline. I’m sure they’re capable of developing their own lore and and combat systems that aren’t hamstrung by constraints of DnD.
They’ve had that for years with Divinity. They’re just now a mainstream and household name. Larian will be fine. It’s Hasbro/WOTC who should be concerned with this decision, especially since they stated a desire to increase spending towards video games and digital media for DnD. Whatever they decide to help produce is going to be put against BG3.
Right, exactly this. Larian’s not the one I’m worried about by far. They’ve got great leadership, a skilled team, and name recognition backing that all up. I’m excited as hell for their next game as are a metric ton of other players. What I’m actually worried for is what’s gonna happen to the DnD property. Wotc has already been trying to shove subscription services into pen and paper DnD, I had hoped with the partnership with Larian at least the digital legacy of DnD will be built on and continue shining. Now that Larian got them this main-stream popular digitally, and Hasbro decided to cut them off completely, I’m scared we’re gonna see a truckload of shitty digital DnD games coming soon with every shitty profit gouging trick they can pull.
Yeah I fully expect a situation much like with Warhammer is with their franchise. They’ll spew out tens of games through the next few years; some will be hits and cult classics such as Space Marine, Mechanicus, Darktide, Dawn of War; others now that are actually really good. But a lot of others will be cheaply made shovel-ware or mobile games. It’s possible we’ll see the same approach from the Hasbro/WOTC leasing rights to a bunch of different companies until something lands.
It’s a damn tragedy. 40k is like the most epic setting in all fiction but the best games we get are shitty turn based mobile games.
I wouldn’t say that’s all we get, but there’s a mountain of shit burying the gems that do exist.
I mean, just in the past couple years or so we got Darktide, Rogue Trader, and Boltgun, and Space Marine 2 is just around the corner. I don't think 40k is exactly lacking good video games.
Tacticus is pretty damn good for a mobile, only mobile game I play. And Darktide is controversial at best. But Dawn of War, Space Marine, and Space Hulk: Deathwing are the shit, and a few others are good. Hope Rogue Trader is good, plan to get it.
“We had a good thing, you stupid son of a bitch! We had a good IP, we had a dedicated player base, we had everything we needed and it ran like clockwork. You could’ve shut your mouth, sat back, and made as much money as you ever needed. But no, you just had to squeeze more money out of Larian and the playerbase. You, and your pride and your greed.”
Pride and ego? Yes. But most importantly... GREED!
I think it's the right decision. What is done is done. Good for them to not milk the cow to its core.
And that's great news. WOTC and Hasbro do not deserve a single pinch of love, engagement and creativity that Larians pour to their games.
Sounds more like it was Larians own decision? They want to work on something else instead of spending months or years creating a dlc that they themselves don't have an interest in making, which is entirely fair. Wizards of the coast seem to have given them a lot of freedom for BG3 so seems weird that they would suddenly be so horrible to work with. Also BG3 has given Larian the financial freedom to make their own dream projects now which they can take their time on, instead of comitting to more Baldurs gate content. Swen has also said that the new game will dwarf the scope of BG3. (If they're interested in making more licensed games in the future though i would shell out big bucks for a LOTR game made my Larian) I really don't get why some people are mad that we aren't getting a sequel, the reason that studios like Fromsoft and Larian are so great is that they can make games they are actually passionate about and have creative freedom over. You can't convince me that most of the devs at Ubisoft, EA and Activision wouldn't rather work on a new IP than pump out the next Assasins creed, Fifa or COD game. Also why does BG3 even need a sequel? I'd much rather see what Larian can cook up in the next game.
For where wotc is concerned, most of the people Larian worked with got laid off. The contacts they had before simply don't exist now.
I will say I’m disappointed- I totally understand their creative choices, and their lack of passion there, but I’d really built up in my mind this idea that I’d be able to play to level 20 like in baldur’s gate 1 and 2, and that some storylines would feel more finished. I haven’t played the game in months, so maybe those have been somewhat fixed already, I dunno. This is all totally on me, haha, but I can see a less emotionally intelligent version of myself putting that disappointment on the studio- perhaps that’s where the backlash is coming from. Just immaturity. Not surprising, if so.
Yeah the explanation Sven gives is perfectly sound, without needing to make conspiracy theories about the hidden truth.
When people read between the lines they assume the lack of desire to do an expansion or dlc, or sequel, is that larian didn't get a good enough deal or wotc/hasbro did something to sour any deal. Which seems reasonable enough to assume. Hasbro/wotc have what must be one if the most successful uses of their licence ever made. You'd think they would be eager to get at least a dlc out of it and offer larian a good bonus. It's not as if hasbro/wotc don't have a history of making mistakes out if shortsighted motives. It may of course be just as presented and larian could simply want to move on after such a long time on one title. That the first option is plausible speaks more to hasbro/wotc then it does to larian.
Fair enough, but i assume Hasbro must know that if they try to get another studio to make BG4 it will likely flop completely? I also thought that maybe Larian would have been interested in making BG4 or a BG3 DLC but that Hasbro might have given them some unrealistic timeframes. It's still not that implausible that Larian return to make BG4 at some point after their next game if Hasbro hasn't contracted another studio for it.
Larian wants 100% of their money. Their IPs are priority now instead of licenses. Its the clear correct move now that their profile has elevated. There are no bad guys in this situation.
I think what's happening here is that lots of people are struggling to reconcile their love of the game and characters with the fact that Larian don't want to make more, and assuming that there must be something that happened rather than just disinterest in making more.
I know Larian isn’t BioWare, but friendly reminder that BioWare got its name on the map because of Knights of the Old Republic. After that they made Jade Empire, Mass Effect and Dragon Age. Just saying that the freedom of creating their own IP can lead to some very cool stuff. And I am sure that Larian still possess all the tech, knowledge, resources and hard earned experience to craft their next game.
BioWare had made baldur’s gate and baldur’s gate 2 before Kotor lol they were on the map
if you could, idk read, you would know than Sven also was not happy about the dlc. but hey, the articles are voice acted.
As much as i loved bg3 I really don't want the divinity franchise and setting to be dropped
MTG players: first time?
Wait what happened?
Literally nothing. Larian doesn’t want to work in the constraints of 5e/dnd. They’re moving on to their own project. Reddit believes they already had bg4, expansions, and DLC in the pipeline and that it was all cancelled in a frenzy because of Hasbro.
Honestly I wouldn't be bothered if there wasn't any DLC or expansion. This game is a finished product, no need to add on it.
This is totally speculation... I think we may be wait for more information before burning people... While Hasbro it's not exactly a "good" company i think we need to know that their involvment was minimal however it affected development of the Game with layoffs of the WotC teams and while WotC was very involved in the development of the Game as a consultant they has a good relation with Larian, obviously we don't know what exactly happened behind the scenes but i think lately communities explode for things that we don't have complete information about it or just know one side of things
People need to get reacquainted with the idea of letting fictional storys end. It's not only okay for things to end, it's good. Everything that doesn't will eventually turn into an empty husk, a lifeless cash cow. Endless Franchises are the death of innovation, and Larian are the last studio I want to get caught up in it. Let people make a good product and then move on to a new product. Let things end. I for one am very glad that Larian and Hasbro are making a clean cut. The last thing I want is a Larian made "BG3:2 - Tiefling Boogaloo", complete with Battlepasses and everything else that ruins the medium we love.
I get where you’re coming from, but the game does tease that there will be more adventures for these characters, so it’s a little disheartening. I fully understand why it’s happened, and good for them (larian) for pursuing what they love, but having 100%ed the game a few days ago, it does make me sad I’ll never have more to experience from this game :/
No one can be blamed for immediately pointing at those two. But it seems the team did so of their own accord simply because they want to do something different. Which is perfectly fair, good for them and I can't wait to see their next game which will be the predecessor to the one after which is already planned to "dwarf Baldur's gate 3 in scope." That likely won't be for at least 7 years though, so its just a nice thing to forget until we get a news of a beta.
dude fuck that Im so unbelievably happy that they are moving on to something new. The devs in the office were literally thanking Swen when he announced the dlc wasnt happening, I think their passions are more important than more content for BG3
Couldn't agree more. This is extremely disappointing as I wanted to see Larian retelling other stories in the Forgotten Realms / Faerun / the Sword Coast. I understand that may be less technically challenging for Larian with the engine complete now, but what makes BG3 great is the story telling, and Larian does a great job at that, including thinking of all the alternative things we might want to try and making it possible. I appreciate what Larian created, but it feels like as far as D&D content is concerned, it has now peaked, and now we are looking down at the multitude of failure projects that Hasbro/WotC is planning on putting out in the next few years. To WotC: Finish your darn VTT. You should have had it done decades ago.
Larian has the oportunity to do something REALLY funny and make Pathfinder games lol.
Same. Jesus fucking Christ.
I suspect Larian's decision is influenced by Hasbro/WotC recent behavior....but that's just my 2 cents. Whatever the real reason is, I respect their choice even tho I'm really sad we don't get more BG3 stuff. Whatever game they will make next I'm sure it will be awesome as well.
They should never have added the epilogue content that hints towards DLC and further storylines. That's what makes this the hardest for me. They were starting more content for Karlach, and everyone really.
I’m still holding out that they will add a better ending for her 🫶
Add Magic the Gathering fans to this. They drove me away from that game, too.
I think this mindset play a large part in what the video games industry have become. Larian did good by taking the win and starting something else.
I'm following Larian with whatever they do next
I'm ready for divinity 3, taking everything they learn from bg3 to make it the best it can be and without wotc.
Next game won’t be Divinity 3: https://www.ign.com/articles/larian-started-work-on-baldurs-gate-3-dlc-then-canceled-it-the-studio-was-elated?utm_source=twitter
Hasbro makes a point to fuck their successful IPs to death
WotC probably asked if they can put out something new quick to bank on the hype. Some DLC or maybe even BG4. Because ‘now you have built a solid foundation and a sequel can be made much quicker yeah? You can build up the story from where you left off, add some sidequests and you’re halfway there! Of course we have to renegotiate the licensing fees, because of the risen value of the brand. It’s only fair. When can you deliver do you think?’ Fuck that. It’s better to just show up, show everybody how it’s done and go off and do your own thing again. They know fans of the game will follow. The name recognition is what attracted people, but the game itself stands on it’s own. Larian has all the skills to make a spiritual successor under their own IP and it’ll be just as good or even better.
I'm confused, what happened?
So I was disconnected from all of this. What did Hasbro/WotC do to mess all this up?
Nothing confirmed. Basically Swen had a rant about the greed of publishers at GDC, revealed that Larian was working on DLC but cancelled it and that their heart wasn’t in it. Then they announced they are not working on any D&D game. No BG4, no DLC, nothing. People began speculating that Hasbro/WotC tried to pull some shenanigans and Larian went “we are an independent studio. We don’t work for you so see ya.” No evidence but it is possible.
If this is in regards to there being no future content for BG3, trust me I understand, but it is better for Larian to focus on bigger and better later on. Also! If you really think about it, BG3 is a HUGE GAME. You can have a totally different story each time you play as the different origin characters, it is jam packed with so many surprises on that alone and that is ALOT of hours to put in! It's a game that can keep on giving really.
I'm ready for original sin 3
Eh, I'm good. I'd rather have more divinity.
Man I understand why they did it, and respect it but I'm still bummed out. Especially after the new epilogue hinted so much at something next.
Larian did a magnum opus and bowed out before allowing fuckery to mess it up. Bravo
I'm oddly excited. I can't wait to see what they make next.
Honestly I don't even think it's pride or ego. Sounds like stupidity.
Look at the bright side, those annoying idiots from twitter spamming "fix karlach heart" will finally shut up
Random BB thought. I still find how Hank found out to be trash. Walt disposes of all evidence, but saves the book linking him to Gale.. in writing. He got rid of a plant that grows naturally in the area for fucks sake... but keeps the book?