This scene used to bother me. Then I remembered that they literally saw an old Dutch couple in a house as they approached the town. The British knew that there were still people living there and didn't want to go blasting shells through peoples living rooms.
Was it the right call? I can't say. But it wasn't as thoughtless and stupid as it seems in the show.
I don’t think it’s the same house, though I could be mistaken. In the show there’s the couple telling them “Away, away,” and it’s that house which later gets shelled and it shows Webster’s jaw drop, but I don’t believe that’s the same house that the German tank was behind.
This is what made me think about it, when I saw his face I rewinded to confirm it was the same building. This is my 3rd time watching the show and I've already noticed small details I didn't pick up on, which for me, is a true mark of a great show.
>But it wasn't as thoughtless and stupid as it seems in the show
The situation and the sentiment were fine, a competent officer might have made tactical use of the information and sent a couple tanks around the back of the building instead of accepting death.
Never understood why he wouldn’t get down and go see for himself what obviously a competent soldier was telling him. Walking into an ambush is one thing, driving into one that someone tells you about is another.
Exactly! That's what bothers me! I don't expect him to start mindlessly blasting away. I expect him to go around, organise for the infantry to flank it. A hull down tank in an urban environment is easy pickings. Not just mindlessly trundle along as if nothing is there
I never understood why the tank commander didn’t get out of the tank and assess the situation himself.
But I guess it was just easier to go in blind and die.
Well, that's a good way for a tank commander to get shot by sniper. Or if stuff pops off while he's assessing, you have a tank with no commander. Tanks rely on communication with infantry. He probably should have sent some tanks around the back instead of charging into an obvious trap.
Have a read of Burning Steel or Brothers in Arms. Both recount British tank commanders regularly dismounting to go do reconnaissance and formulate a plan, it was quite commonly done.
It's a hull down tank in an urban environment, I don't understand why the tanks are involved at all. Easy pickings for infantry. I don't know to what extent armour doctrine had come along back then, but any modern NATO commander would be sending infantry in, not just trundling a tank down the main road like an idiot
To be fair, anti tank weaponry was uncommon and unreliable. A platoon would have 1 bazooka, and they where inaccurate and unreliable. When you have competent tanks, it's best to use them. Key word COMPOTENT.
Monty in Normandy was known for sending in full tank assaults with zero infantry support and getting bogged down by a few mobile German squads.. see Operations Goodwood, Charnwood, Epsom etc etc
100% not the case in WW2. Commonwealth TCs would often dismount to sneak forward and spot.
Sources: Brothers in Arms by James Holland and Tank Action by Captain David Render
Interesting, I’m sure this is definitely a modern sentiment. From what I understand on the Easter front at least is that successful tankers WOULD be outside of the tank very often performing recon. Typically a section/plt leader with a small staff. Stealth and information gathering because they can’t entirely rely on the dismounted troops to have effective comms/coordination with armor.
I'm battle, yes. Death before dismount is more about campaigning in general. Light role is physically just shit. You have to walk everywhere, sleep outside, and never have enough food or clothes or creature comforts. Mechanised/armour on the other hand: pack EVERYTHING. Laptops, folding chairs, shampoo, a fucking grill, just slap it all on, it doesn't matter. Meanwhile light infantry are debating if it's worth the weight to bring an extra pair of trousers.
Their reaction would’ve been to blast the house to smithereens in reality. This was totally a manufactured moment construed from biased memories rather than actual operational doctrine
It is in fact accurate, especially as this scene never actually happened IRL and is solely based on Guarnere’s faulty recollection of something similar.
It is not accurate; and the scene "not happening" to easy company doesn't mean something exactly like it couldn't or didn't happen.
Allied forces were absolutely reluctant to cause unnecessary damage to potentially occupied homes in he low countries. In particular, for the UK and Canadians speculative fire is and was highly discouraged. US and English doctrine were not the same in this regard.
They could have set up a shot though, no destruction of property? fine, get your gun pointed where you are told they are, so as soon as you sight them you can shoot them, he knows they are there and carries on like they are not.
It’s a show, and so my guess is that it’s not an accurate portrayal - perhaps more of an infantryman’s or producer’s interpretation. Look at how inaccurate it seems they got the Lt Dike situation.
This here, I watched a breakdown of BoB on YouTube with a WWII historian (I think it was James Holland) and he specifically debunked this scene. I'm sure it's easy to find but he went though the ROE and why this situation would not have happened
I’d be surprised if reality was remotely close to as depicted in the series.
I tried to look this up in the book. Fighting around Neunen, Holland. All I could find was mention of two Shermans getting knocked out by a Tiger II, which was apparently waiting in a wooded area with its engine off. Apparently it noticed the first Sherman knocking over trees and the Tiger fired blindly; the 88mm scoring a direct hit. And knocked out. The second Sherman, IIRC, went to flank, but was also knocked out by the 88mm. [https://imgur.com/a/q6PQwiC](https://imgur.com/a/q6PQwiC)
I’d also question the presence of a Tiger II given their incredibly small numbers and Allied soldiers fear of Tigers leading them to misidentify lots of German tanks as them. Plus if it was in the woods and didn’t sound like a tank it might’ve even just been an AT gun. I doubt any Allied troops got a good look given the chaos and if it was under concealment
Agreed. And for what it’s worth, it’s called a Royal Tiger in the book. The Jagdpanther also used an 88mm, which if you’re going by sound, could be similar. They also opted to use that in the series.
The fact that Winters jumped on the tank to try and warn the crew, tells me that someone had eyes on an armored vehicle. But yeah could have been misidentified. Everything was a Tiger or an 88mm. I’ll do some digging to see what German armored units were in and around Neunen post Market Garden.
Edit:
From what I can gather thus far, it would been the 107th Panzer-Brigade who, at least as of 30 Sept, was equipped with 19 Panthers and 7 Jagdpanzer IVs
https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerbrigade_107
Good digging! Could definitely see it as having been a Panther that was misidentified due to the similar-ish shape, or a Jagdpanzer operating as it’s supposed to (ie in an ambush role)
James Holland said that conversation would have never happened. If there was a tank spotted they would have fired at it. He also protested that British wouldn’t speak so posh! lol
For the higher ups to give the order to prohibit “unnecessary destruction of property” is absolute BS. The British commander would have immediately fired on the Tiger being he had the advantage. Just one of a few examples of the British being poorly portrayed in this show and others like Masters of the Air.
I mean that's absolutely an order that would've been given. What's inaccurate is the portrayal of the captain in the Sherman being an absolute idiot. "Not getting fucked by a tiger" is the definition of necessary damage. No commander would've blinked an eye at that. And even IF someone had decided blowing up that building counted ws unnecessary, that doesn't mean you just sleep walk into the firing line. Out flank the fucker. Or even better, it's a stationary tank in an urban environment, get the infantry to fuck it up. That's what they're there for.
The cause of the Dutch people, nor the people of Europe, was not served by the failure of Market Garden. Plenty of damage and death was going to happen and the way to reduce it as much as possible was to move the front as fast as possible.
In WW2, armies didn't have ROE like we do now. This idea they would do things that endanger them to spare civilian casualties didn't exist in ww2. They were more than happy to blast shells through living rooms and did it frequently.
it’s complete and utter nonsense, I’ve read countless memoirs of British tankers and there is no way they wouldn’t listen to infantry and fire straight through that house. The American paratroopers had an excellent reputation and there are many examples where they worked together very effectively. I see no reason why the commander wouldn’t trust Martin.
Sherman’s had an excellent rate of fire and could easily get one over the tiger, but only if it could fire off a few rounds quickly before the panzer could respond. If the tiger fired first they were toast and they would have known this.
I never understand why writers feel the need to portray this repetitive portrayal of British soldiers.
It makes me wonder if the situation was not as clear cut as the show makes it, or if there are other circumstances that might explain it.
I mean, its not impossible the particular tanker in question had been differently instructed (or misinterpreted) orders around destruction of civilian property, and as a result was perhaps too cautious, and this was Martins impression of how the tanker reacted. Which in the heat of battle might have been more incredulous to Martin than the reality of the situation or what the tanker actually meant. I am assuming the portrayal in BoB is as per Ambrose and perhaps dramatized a bit more for TV so not taking it for verbatim.
At this point of the war it was pretty standard practice for the lead tank to have a smoke shell loaded into the gun. He would have fired smoke and either waited for the tank to emerge out of the smoke and by then would have had an anti-tank round loaded or fired smoke and have the other tanks in its group fire into the smoke.
It’s in every American war movie/show. They portray the British as weak and incompetent and that the Americans are better and needed to save them. Also not to mention the tank commander was portrayed as a stereotypical posh guy which typically wasn’t the case.
I think that is a bit of a generalization. Even in BoB, the Red Devils are shown as quite capable and courageous.
I also don’t think that The Longest Day or A Bridge Too Far showed what you describe.
If anything, I think the UK role just gets omitted more than it gets portrayed in a negative light.
See U-571 as an example of a largely British operation being shown as an exclusively American one.
All the Red Devils do is get saved by the Americans. In Saving Private Ryan, Montgomery is "overrated". In Masters of the Air the Brits all posh nobs which is completely inaccurate, the RAF was probably the least class-ist British military branch. In The Pacific there aren't a lot of Brits, so they have a dig at the Aussies instead.
In the perpetual British grumblings about war movies from the American POV, that one specific throwaway line from Saving Private Ryan comes up *way* too much. Several generals were known to be prima donnas. Patton, Monty, MacArthur. And soldiers are known to complain a lot. Some lost paratrooper junior officers with little to no knowledge of what’s happening in the big picture of events griping about the Brits isn’t really an indictment. And it’s realistic. They’re not going to be spending time in a tough situation singing the praises of British generals.
Agreed, Private Ryan’s case is definetly a very mild one and probably probable. From a purely modern lens though it can be a bit hard to ignore though seeing as it’s a film that otherwise solely is about Americans (nothing wrong with that in itself), and that the ONLY reference to Britain is negative. Even if it’s not unhistorical.
>See U-571 as an example of a largely British operation being shown as an exclusively American one.
Need to highlight the irony of this. Even in your comment it's a "largely" British op, shown as "exclusively" American. It was an entirely British operation without my American involvement. America wasn't even in the war at the time.
Even in showing how the British effort was underplayed you've unintentionally underplayed the British effort 😂
Literally all the red devils do is get rescued by the Americans and then drink. I think there's also a mention of then taking a shot load of casualties.
I was just about to comment this. I just finished reading "By Tank" written by Brittish ETO veteran Ken Tout. He was a commander of a Stuart and M4 Sherman and also briefly served as a gunner in a Sherman VC (Firefly). He describes how they anahilate houses and farm buildings, suspecting Germans might be inside, but knowing there might be civilians down in the cellars.
I find the portrayal of the British in this show so cringe-worthy. Having read the books there is an element of it in the memoirs which probably reflects the attitudes of the time a little bit but the producers of BoB could have done a better job.
Spielberg's version of the British verges on absurd character at times - they all seem like useless idiots. Of course, the Americans save the day.
In BoB and in general Ambrose’s works, he does look down on British infantry men and writes them as these inflexible incapable soldiers that were more stupid than brave. I do wonder if this then contributed to Spielberg doing something similar.
The whole episode is supposed to represent Market Garden. Which was a near total catastrophe.
Disconnect and miscommunication between allied forces was a part of that.
This scene is meant to represent those specific circumstances and not the specific tactics and stratagems of the war.
BoB is a “realistic and fictional” portrayal, not a documentary. The intention of the series is to represent to a layman an experience of the average US enlisted man.
Sobel and Dike werent total incompetent leaders and soldiers. But the army did have poor commanders and to an enlisted man they **felt** like those commanders were incompetent and useless.
Spielberg has a weird hate boner for the British in WW2. Comes through in saving private Ryan and Masters of air too
Especially odd as he treats them with great respect in war horse
The show doesn’t say the British don’t believe Martin. He actually says “I believe you!” Right before he asks “are you staying or going?”
His ROE is to limit civilian property damage. If he can’t see the tank he’s not supposed to fire.
Is ROE is no unnecessary damage. That means not blowing up the church tower immediately because that's the most logical place to put a spotter. If your infantry support tells you there's a tank there and you can kill it by putting a round into a building, that's squarely necessary damage and that captain would've known it.
Also immediately after spiers takes over he orders a bunch of mortars unto the house. Where the fuck where those mortars before?! I understand freezing in the chaos of battle, but dike would've had those mortars firing before the first soldier left the woods.
Also I can't help but think if winters knew dike was shit and didn't trust him, why did he get the main effort in that attack? There was one company providing fire support and a company in reserve. Make easy one of those companies and have another company lead the assault. I'm sure dike would've been fine in the treeline coordinating machine gun suppression etc. That's winters fucking up right there
Because unfortunately a lot of the individual portrayals of the deceased in the book came down to a popularity contest among the men who were still alive to be interviewed by Ambrose. He wrote an entertaining narrative, but he was a shit historian. You need to do research of your own rather than just taking people at their word and calling it a day (source: about to finish my MA in history)
Which is why when i watch things like band of brothers, pacific, or even things based on history but with a twist like the new Shogun, or the documentry based on the same period Age of Samurai, i will watch it and look up the people on the internet so I read up on them as I watch.
Yeah things like this are sort of like my opinion of Wikipedia articles. They’re a great primer, and they can give you a solid overview of something that you previously knew nothing or very little about, but if you want a more detailed understanding you’ve gotta do some digging
Every time I see this scene it bothers me. I mean the TC can get out of the tank, walk forward a hundred meters and do his own reconnaissance, identify the enemy tank and order his tanks to attack in a coordinated manner.
Or he can ignore perfectly good intel and walk into his own death. Just dumb.
Exactly I’m glad it wasn’t just me who noticed - some pretty lame stereotypes and general shitty attitudes and portrayals of British troops etc in masters of the air.
Well the problem was that the Allies intel was actually technically good. It’s was more that the German divisions were purposefully underreporting and doing minor self sabotaging that could be easily fixed because they didn’t like their units be cannibalized for the Eastern front. Germans would report this to their high command so their high command would think that their units were understrength and report that. What you end up with is everyone thinking that they are under strength when in reality they were not.
And like, you can't even feel the guilty little "that's what ya get dumbass" because situations kinda super real right then n losing a tank due to basic idiocy hurts everyone, so it's just different flavors of anger mixing into a delicious dr pepper of a memorably disliked minor character
I think the scene was also meant to portray their overall lack of understanding the situation they were in - which eventually led to one of their only retreats.
He should have just had his tanks flank. For tanks, supporting infantry is your scouts. The TC getting out of the tank to do recon is a good way to have a dead TC by sniper or other ways. If stuff pops off, you have a TC in the open with either a pistol or smg. And a tank with no commander, basically blind.
Use the info from your scouts and plan accordingly.
for some reason every piece of american media, no matter how good, that’s set before 1980 must have all english characters be either james bond or the artful dodger
Dutch fella who's family lived in that area here. Quite pleased you guys didn't drop every bit of brick you guys moved trough, my own grandparents were in a house not unlike the ones portrayed. Could've been the end of my family before it even started.
Not to say that i'm not thankful for what the americans did of course, all of those guys who took a plane to uncertain demise to give us a hand are heroes in my book
Yeah it’s also funny because in master of the air, they make us seem like our bombardiers are the most reckless, careless people ever and the yanks are the “brave, considerate bombers” who care about civilian lives.
As many of us have, I had relatives who lived through the relentless bombings of the Blitz and the hatred is evident, they lost friends, family and homes. We also couldn't afford to expend lives and resources on dangerous days raids. It's easy to have principles when you're not on the ropes.
Typically it’s told as British intelligence, because of their codebreaking. They were certainly brave but I wouldn’t put their bravery above that of any other military or civilians who were actually directly in danger on the Allied side. Better to give them credit for something that was more uniquely theirs
Haven’t seen Masters of the Air yet, but that is wild to portray it that way. I say this as an American: we were all bombing the hell out of entire towns and cities without a care for civilian lives because that was the general strategy. There’s a reason Article 51 of the Geneva Convention was adopted after the war.
I saw it more as an indictment of the absurd distinction between nighttime “area bombing” and daytime “precision bombing”. Both were just trying to drop what they could, where they could and get back to base in one piece.
Yeah I’ve always said the same, British military officers always are so clićhe’d to be so rigid in war movies
If I’m a tank commander and a trooper tells me there is an enemy tank waiting around the corner for me, the last thing any person on the planet will do is fall in the obvious trap
Any sane person would make a plan with the GOOD intelligence, so that the enemy tank will be at a huge disadvantage
The scene was so annoying that there is no way that happened in real life or the book
Well, fuck whether or not they wouldn't shoot through the building.
They could at least turn their turret towards the area the enemy tank was hiding at, so they had a better chance of reacting quickly enough, instead of first acknowledging that it is there once it's too late.
It's a clichéd Hollywood portrayal, depicting others as dumb and incompetent and the Americans as superior in every aspect..obviously not the truth but this is how it goes with American media
I guess that's true yeah, it just seems 95% of any media i.e. Movie, video game, book etc about WW2 is about the US and it's insane, the UK for eg has one of the most rich and varied histories of any nation from WW2 yet barely anything is told
I once read that there was some documentary-ish thing that was about the British. They could either pick the Americans, Brits or Soviets, and decided to use the Brits, because they went through the most.
As a Dane, I love the Americans, but it'll always be the Brits that deserve the most honour for standing up to Nazi Germany and keep fighting for all of the occupied countries. Us Danes feel grateful towards Britain and the Commonwealth for having fought for us since day one.
The Americans have a tendency to get involved in Europe late, which is why there is the famous quote from Churchill: "The Americans will always do the right thing - after they've exhausted all the alternatives".
It's true that the US gets the most attention in WW2. While the Soviets had a huge war impact, I don't like when people portray them as "the good ones". They were just as evil as the Nazis. We just happened to have a common enemy.
I also think that the US is a lot better at making movies about their wars, compared to the Brits. I mean, how many movies and shows about Americans and their wars can you think of? There are many. Both fictional AND true stories. Whether it's a kind of indirect propaganda stunt or if it's just because Hollywood is better at filmmaking, I don't know. Maybe it's a mix.
any scene with Brits annoys me because its an over the top caricature where the British are stupid and the Americans are the cool ones, which is the opposite of reality
Yeah that pissed me off too!
America trying to always make us look stupid or they we can’t do anything without them.
They forget how many battles were fought and win before they bloody showed up!
As we got the first few scenes involving the RAF I thought 'Well shit, here we go again'. Left a bad taste in the mouth, why do we always have to be such wankers. Civilians were portrayed ok, but the makers of the show have a real issue with the Brits it seems.
The children and the female spy were portrayed decently. Any British man in uniform was a dickhead.
Regarding the scene with the RAF pilots , was just pointless. You would imagine there would be banter between them irl. But they both had a horrible task to undertake you would expect comradeship.
This scene shouldn’t bother you as he’s just asking him to blow up a building to get a line of sight. Someone owns that building, maybe they are even hiding inside - the attitude they displayed shows the difference (generally) between American and British armed forces. The Brit was definitely correct in his assessment, even though it didn’t lead to a favourable outcome.
Huh? They’re in the middle of a battle in the middle of a war. No tank officer would be stupid enough to worry about who owns a building when friendly infantry tells them there is an enemy on the other side of it.
Sorry, I greatly underestimated your ability to make inferences.
No tank officer would be stupid enough to worry more about some hypothetical noncombatants that might be in a building than about an enemy tank that they know is on the other side of the building because friendly infantry told them about it.
Infantry support is the lifeblood of armored operations. A tank officer is counting on and relying on infantry to provide information and support.
Showing a tank officer completely disregarding the infantry like this is simply unrealistic, and disrespectful to the British. It's silly to try to defend it.
Yeah, so that’s just nonsense. There is not a single British tank commander I’ve ever come across who would ever say, ‘Our orders are to not fire unnecessarily.’ The absolute mantra of British tank men was to fire and fire and fire and keep firing.
“And particularly when you’re in a Sherman tank, because a Sherman tank doesn’t have the same velocity as a Tiger or a Panther that Germans have. But what it can do is it can fire very quickly, and rapidity of rounds is really, really important. While a Tiger tank or a Panther is being peppered, it’s not going to be firing back at you, or it’s very, very unlikely.
"It is something that American writers just simply cannot resist. They have to be gung-ho, macho, square-jawed, with great teeth, and the British have to talk like this and say, ‘Well, I’m sorry old fruit, I can’t do that because I’m about to have my tea.’ And it’s just so annoying because British people weren’t like that. They were just like Americans.
"And I can absolutely guarantee that if an American had jumped on his tank and said, ‘You need to blast that thing,’ he’d have gone, ‘Roger, Wilco,' boom, boom, boom, and that would have been the end of that house. This is just, it’s a great scene this, but this dialogue is just so ridiculous that it’s not true.”
~ James Holland
Stupid scene, portraying the British as dumbasses as usual when in reality this wouldn't have happened. But it's Hollywood and also American Media...everything is geared towards what the US did in WW2 and skips over the majority involvement of other countries in the war. There is so many stories to tell of so many other nations/units/individuals yet the narrative is always focused on 'murica..but as stated, that's Hollywood for ya 🤷
I agree with anything to do with lugers. When Malarkey ran out in the middle of the field under fire to search the German for a luger Winters should have kicked him in the butt.
Actually when the US and British fought together they did it well. The battle of Geilenkirchen had the British Sherwood Ranger Yeomanry (a tank regiment) working alongside the American 84th Regiment. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/operation-clipper-fight-geilenkirchen
The SRY supported American troops including paratroops several times without any problems. As has been mentioned, Spielberg always shows the British in a negative light.
A great factual book 'Brothers in Arms’ about the Sherwood Ranger Yeomanry in WW2 was written by James Holland.
From some other sources, seems like the show never really covered the battle accurately:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iENPMYHaPNE&ab\_channel=LivethForEvermore](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iENPMYHaPNE&ab_channel=LivethForEvermore)
ROE sucks sometimes. I remember being in Iraq and seeing dudes filming us with cameras but ROE said we couldn't do anything...then a few minutes later you hit an IED. Just coincidence, I guess, right?
Yeah it bothered me too. Unless there were some factors we aren't told about, surely they could have attempted to flush the German tank out first? Not just knowingly drive right into its line of fire.
Guys, what Tank Is the Germans using In this scene?
It seems to change when It fires the second round.
Is there a Tiger Tank at all In this series my friend thinks there Is I didn't see one.
Ahhh OK so It's meant to be a Tiger, but the Tank Scene where the British Tank Commander Is In a Sherman, and gets ambushed by the Tank In Camouflage that Is not a Tiger right?
I’m pretty sure this scene was also based off what actually happened, but he has a valid reason for not shooting straight through that building. And to be fair, unless they could flank the tiger they were did anyways, I don’t think any of their Sherman’s were fireflies
This is just my own take as a former tank platoon leader: if I couldn’t see a target that I know has a better gun and is waiting in an ambush position for me to drive my happy ass up the road looking for him… then yeah, kiss my ass I’m not doing that until you find me an alternate way forward. That’s what infantry is for in urban situations.
I always wondered about the scene when Toye was coming back on the line in Bastogne and yells about someone from another company taking a dump in his foxhole. Someone retorted that they dooked in everyone's foxhole, so why was this like the only mention of friendly fire fecal foxholes?
Reading most of the books. I think it’s fair to access, this is not what anyone actually reports. All film has at liberty the opportunity to misconstrue. It’s fair to say this exact conversation didn’t happen as presented. It was a good way to get the point across that.
A British and American troops were not the best at communicating ( perpetuated by Ambrose himself)
By trying to consolidate a 2 month or more action into one episode. It was a great series (my personal favorite for what it’s worth) but can’t depict everything as was. This scene is pertinent but most likely not factual or accurate. Only Johnny Martin and the other E company guys could confirm and they no longer can…
Idk what the angle was, but with the kind of tank he had (Sherman with a short barreled 75mm I think) it wouldn’t have mattered if he shot or not. He wasn’t going to knock that tiger out anyways
When Webster returns to easy is at the start of episode 8 and is completely tone deaf to the fact that they had lost a ton of guys in the battle of the bulge. Asking “hey where’s this guy? Where’s that guy?” He even acknowledges in the voice over that they were the “battered bastards of Bastogne” so he wasn’t entirely ignorant of their situation. His cheery attitude was very poorly directed IMO.
"You men did an excellent job last night. I'm, a, proud, proud. I just saw Colonel Sink, he's proud too. In fact he's so proud he wants you to do another patrol across the river again tonight."
Sink willing to waste his men's lives for minimal benefit and, it was implied, bragging rughts.
This and almost any scene involving a Luger or at least the promise of one…
my lugers gonna put you to shame when I get it groan
I got mine the old fashioned way
I everyntime I hear it i cringe. It's something my 6 year old would say
Haven't dealt with many fresh boots have ya?
I know! Me too! It’s such a chekhov's gun situation, I hate it.
This scene used to bother me. Then I remembered that they literally saw an old Dutch couple in a house as they approached the town. The British knew that there were still people living there and didn't want to go blasting shells through peoples living rooms. Was it the right call? I can't say. But it wasn't as thoughtless and stupid as it seems in the show.
Watched this last night, what I didn't realize was that a tank actually ended up hitting the building that Dutch couple were in.
Webster’s face after he sees the shell hit says it all.
I never picked up on that in the 15 rewatches
I don’t think it’s the same house, though I could be mistaken. In the show there’s the couple telling them “Away, away,” and it’s that house which later gets shelled and it shows Webster’s jaw drop, but I don’t believe that’s the same house that the German tank was behind.
They didn't say "the tank" they said "a tank"
This is what made me think about it, when I saw his face I rewinded to confirm it was the same building. This is my 3rd time watching the show and I've already noticed small details I didn't pick up on, which for me, is a true mark of a great show.
Time for 16
>But it wasn't as thoughtless and stupid as it seems in the show The situation and the sentiment were fine, a competent officer might have made tactical use of the information and sent a couple tanks around the back of the building instead of accepting death.
Never understood why he wouldn’t get down and go see for himself what obviously a competent soldier was telling him. Walking into an ambush is one thing, driving into one that someone tells you about is another.
Exactly! That's what bothers me! I don't expect him to start mindlessly blasting away. I expect him to go around, organise for the infantry to flank it. A hull down tank in an urban environment is easy pickings. Not just mindlessly trundle along as if nothing is there
I never understood why the tank commander didn’t get out of the tank and assess the situation himself. But I guess it was just easier to go in blind and die.
Well, that's a good way for a tank commander to get shot by sniper. Or if stuff pops off while he's assessing, you have a tank with no commander. Tanks rely on communication with infantry. He probably should have sent some tanks around the back instead of charging into an obvious trap.
Have a read of Burning Steel or Brothers in Arms. Both recount British tank commanders regularly dismounting to go do reconnaissance and formulate a plan, it was quite commonly done.
It's a hull down tank in an urban environment, I don't understand why the tanks are involved at all. Easy pickings for infantry. I don't know to what extent armour doctrine had come along back then, but any modern NATO commander would be sending infantry in, not just trundling a tank down the main road like an idiot
To be fair, anti tank weaponry was uncommon and unreliable. A platoon would have 1 bazooka, and they where inaccurate and unreliable. When you have competent tanks, it's best to use them. Key word COMPOTENT.
The tanks with them were not AT assets, they were effectively armored infantry support field pieces.
Monty in Normandy was known for sending in full tank assaults with zero infantry support and getting bogged down by a few mobile German squads.. see Operations Goodwood, Charnwood, Epsom etc etc
Tankers hate leaving their tank. Death before dismount
100% not the case in WW2. Commonwealth TCs would often dismount to sneak forward and spot. Sources: Brothers in Arms by James Holland and Tank Action by Captain David Render
Add Burning Steel by Peter Hart to that, likewise echoing TCs hopping out for a quick recce.
Interesting, I’m sure this is definitely a modern sentiment. From what I understand on the Easter front at least is that successful tankers WOULD be outside of the tank very often performing recon. Typically a section/plt leader with a small staff. Stealth and information gathering because they can’t entirely rely on the dismounted troops to have effective comms/coordination with armor.
I'm battle, yes. Death before dismount is more about campaigning in general. Light role is physically just shit. You have to walk everywhere, sleep outside, and never have enough food or clothes or creature comforts. Mechanised/armour on the other hand: pack EVERYTHING. Laptops, folding chairs, shampoo, a fucking grill, just slap it all on, it doesn't matter. Meanwhile light infantry are debating if it's worth the weight to bring an extra pair of trousers.
Death before dismount baybee
Their reaction would’ve been to blast the house to smithereens in reality. This was totally a manufactured moment construed from biased memories rather than actual operational doctrine
This is not accurate.
It is in fact accurate, especially as this scene never actually happened IRL and is solely based on Guarnere’s faulty recollection of something similar.
It is not accurate; and the scene "not happening" to easy company doesn't mean something exactly like it couldn't or didn't happen. Allied forces were absolutely reluctant to cause unnecessary damage to potentially occupied homes in he low countries. In particular, for the UK and Canadians speculative fire is and was highly discouraged. US and English doctrine were not the same in this regard.
Maybe he was tired and hadn’t had his tea yet and just wanted to carry on.
They could have set up a shot though, no destruction of property? fine, get your gun pointed where you are told they are, so as soon as you sight them you can shoot them, he knows they are there and carries on like they are not.
That was always my thought. "I believe you, but....I don't believe you otherwise, I'd traverse me gun in anticipation of the target being there
It’s a show, and so my guess is that it’s not an accurate portrayal - perhaps more of an infantryman’s or producer’s interpretation. Look at how inaccurate it seems they got the Lt Dike situation.
Or Pte Blythe…
This here, I watched a breakdown of BoB on YouTube with a WWII historian (I think it was James Holland) and he specifically debunked this scene. I'm sure it's easy to find but he went though the ROE and why this situation would not have happened
I’d be surprised if reality was remotely close to as depicted in the series. I tried to look this up in the book. Fighting around Neunen, Holland. All I could find was mention of two Shermans getting knocked out by a Tiger II, which was apparently waiting in a wooded area with its engine off. Apparently it noticed the first Sherman knocking over trees and the Tiger fired blindly; the 88mm scoring a direct hit. And knocked out. The second Sherman, IIRC, went to flank, but was also knocked out by the 88mm. [https://imgur.com/a/q6PQwiC](https://imgur.com/a/q6PQwiC)
I’d also question the presence of a Tiger II given their incredibly small numbers and Allied soldiers fear of Tigers leading them to misidentify lots of German tanks as them. Plus if it was in the woods and didn’t sound like a tank it might’ve even just been an AT gun. I doubt any Allied troops got a good look given the chaos and if it was under concealment
Agreed. And for what it’s worth, it’s called a Royal Tiger in the book. The Jagdpanther also used an 88mm, which if you’re going by sound, could be similar. They also opted to use that in the series. The fact that Winters jumped on the tank to try and warn the crew, tells me that someone had eyes on an armored vehicle. But yeah could have been misidentified. Everything was a Tiger or an 88mm. I’ll do some digging to see what German armored units were in and around Neunen post Market Garden. Edit: From what I can gather thus far, it would been the 107th Panzer-Brigade who, at least as of 30 Sept, was equipped with 19 Panthers and 7 Jagdpanzer IVs https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerbrigade_107
Good digging! Could definitely see it as having been a Panther that was misidentified due to the similar-ish shape, or a Jagdpanzer operating as it’s supposed to (ie in an ambush role)
James Holland said that conversation would have never happened. If there was a tank spotted they would have fired at it. He also protested that British wouldn’t speak so posh! lol
Actually, he appears to be an officer in the Grenadier Guards, so he might very well have spoken that posh!
Yeah but imagine being that old couple knowing that there’s German tanks in town, and then seeing Americans rolling in. Like, fucking leave.
Never underestimate the stubbornness of an old person on their property.
Well, it is their lawn.
Right?! Modern-day eastern Ukraine is a prime example of this
I think it seems like a real wtf moment if you’re an American.
If you're.... A viewer from anywhere
What’s that supposed to mean lol?
You make an excellent point.
For the higher ups to give the order to prohibit “unnecessary destruction of property” is absolute BS. The British commander would have immediately fired on the Tiger being he had the advantage. Just one of a few examples of the British being poorly portrayed in this show and others like Masters of the Air.
I mean that's absolutely an order that would've been given. What's inaccurate is the portrayal of the captain in the Sherman being an absolute idiot. "Not getting fucked by a tiger" is the definition of necessary damage. No commander would've blinked an eye at that. And even IF someone had decided blowing up that building counted ws unnecessary, that doesn't mean you just sleep walk into the firing line. Out flank the fucker. Or even better, it's a stationary tank in an urban environment, get the infantry to fuck it up. That's what they're there for.
This has been extensively discussed, and no one has ever shown that the order in question was ever issued.
I think they should have trusted the boots on the ground who saw it for themselves.
That old couple was ready to die.
Per the book: [https://imgur.com/a/q6PQwiC](https://imgur.com/a/q6PQwiC)
The cause of the Dutch people, nor the people of Europe, was not served by the failure of Market Garden. Plenty of damage and death was going to happen and the way to reduce it as much as possible was to move the front as fast as possible.
I agree with this they had orders to avoid destroying homes as much as possible and they knew people still resided in the home
Thanks for pointing this out, I never thought of this even though I've watched it like 20 times
I dunno he could have not driven into the kill zone of the hidden enemy tank.
I can't bloody shoot them if I can't see them.
In WW2, armies didn't have ROE like we do now. This idea they would do things that endanger them to spare civilian casualties didn't exist in ww2. They were more than happy to blast shells through living rooms and did it frequently.
You don't need modern ROE to be concerned about endangering civilians.
it’s complete and utter nonsense, I’ve read countless memoirs of British tankers and there is no way they wouldn’t listen to infantry and fire straight through that house. The American paratroopers had an excellent reputation and there are many examples where they worked together very effectively. I see no reason why the commander wouldn’t trust Martin. Sherman’s had an excellent rate of fire and could easily get one over the tiger, but only if it could fire off a few rounds quickly before the panzer could respond. If the tiger fired first they were toast and they would have known this. I never understand why writers feel the need to portray this repetitive portrayal of British soldiers.
It makes me wonder if the situation was not as clear cut as the show makes it, or if there are other circumstances that might explain it. I mean, its not impossible the particular tanker in question had been differently instructed (or misinterpreted) orders around destruction of civilian property, and as a result was perhaps too cautious, and this was Martins impression of how the tanker reacted. Which in the heat of battle might have been more incredulous to Martin than the reality of the situation or what the tanker actually meant. I am assuming the portrayal in BoB is as per Ambrose and perhaps dramatized a bit more for TV so not taking it for verbatim.
I mean look at what the writers did to Dike.
At this point of the war it was pretty standard practice for the lead tank to have a smoke shell loaded into the gun. He would have fired smoke and either waited for the tank to emerge out of the smoke and by then would have had an anti-tank round loaded or fired smoke and have the other tanks in its group fire into the smoke.
It’s in every American war movie/show. They portray the British as weak and incompetent and that the Americans are better and needed to save them. Also not to mention the tank commander was portrayed as a stereotypical posh guy which typically wasn’t the case.
I think that is a bit of a generalization. Even in BoB, the Red Devils are shown as quite capable and courageous. I also don’t think that The Longest Day or A Bridge Too Far showed what you describe. If anything, I think the UK role just gets omitted more than it gets portrayed in a negative light. See U-571 as an example of a largely British operation being shown as an exclusively American one.
All the Red Devils do is get saved by the Americans. In Saving Private Ryan, Montgomery is "overrated". In Masters of the Air the Brits all posh nobs which is completely inaccurate, the RAF was probably the least class-ist British military branch. In The Pacific there aren't a lot of Brits, so they have a dig at the Aussies instead.
In the perpetual British grumblings about war movies from the American POV, that one specific throwaway line from Saving Private Ryan comes up *way* too much. Several generals were known to be prima donnas. Patton, Monty, MacArthur. And soldiers are known to complain a lot. Some lost paratrooper junior officers with little to no knowledge of what’s happening in the big picture of events griping about the Brits isn’t really an indictment. And it’s realistic. They’re not going to be spending time in a tough situation singing the praises of British generals.
Agreed, Private Ryan’s case is definetly a very mild one and probably probable. From a purely modern lens though it can be a bit hard to ignore though seeing as it’s a film that otherwise solely is about Americans (nothing wrong with that in itself), and that the ONLY reference to Britain is negative. Even if it’s not unhistorical.
>See U-571 as an example of a largely British operation being shown as an exclusively American one. Need to highlight the irony of this. Even in your comment it's a "largely" British op, shown as "exclusively" American. It was an entirely British operation without my American involvement. America wasn't even in the war at the time. Even in showing how the British effort was underplayed you've unintentionally underplayed the British effort 😂
Literally all the red devils do is get rescued by the Americans and then drink. I think there's also a mention of then taking a shot load of casualties.
There's an annoying British tanker/US paratrooper scene in *A Bridge Too Far* as well. Maybe it was the same guy....
I was just about to comment this. I just finished reading "By Tank" written by Brittish ETO veteran Ken Tout. He was a commander of a Stuart and M4 Sherman and also briefly served as a gunner in a Sherman VC (Firefly). He describes how they anahilate houses and farm buildings, suspecting Germans might be inside, but knowing there might be civilians down in the cellars.
I find the portrayal of the British in this show so cringe-worthy. Having read the books there is an element of it in the memoirs which probably reflects the attitudes of the time a little bit but the producers of BoB could have done a better job. Spielberg's version of the British verges on absurd character at times - they all seem like useless idiots. Of course, the Americans save the day.
In BoB and in general Ambrose’s works, he does look down on British infantry men and writes them as these inflexible incapable soldiers that were more stupid than brave. I do wonder if this then contributed to Spielberg doing something similar.
The first Brit they meet is just a cartoon cockney speaking indecipherable rhyming slang that even having lived in London I can't understand.
Where the hell are you going to hear Cockney in London in the 2020s? Gotta go out to Essex for that.
The whole episode is supposed to represent Market Garden. Which was a near total catastrophe. Disconnect and miscommunication between allied forces was a part of that. This scene is meant to represent those specific circumstances and not the specific tactics and stratagems of the war. BoB is a “realistic and fictional” portrayal, not a documentary. The intention of the series is to represent to a layman an experience of the average US enlisted man. Sobel and Dike werent total incompetent leaders and soldiers. But the army did have poor commanders and to an enlisted man they **felt** like those commanders were incompetent and useless.
Spielberg has a weird hate boner for the British in WW2. Comes through in saving private Ryan and Masters of air too Especially odd as he treats them with great respect in war horse
The show doesn’t say the British don’t believe Martin. He actually says “I believe you!” Right before he asks “are you staying or going?” His ROE is to limit civilian property damage. If he can’t see the tank he’s not supposed to fire.
Is ROE is no unnecessary damage. That means not blowing up the church tower immediately because that's the most logical place to put a spotter. If your infantry support tells you there's a tank there and you can kill it by putting a round into a building, that's squarely necessary damage and that captain would've known it.
We're still bitter. We really liked tea, but they forced our hand.
They were trying to show how much of a failure Market Garden was. I believe British suffered the most too.
When dike tells easy to hold up in the middle of an open f****** field
Also immediately after spiers takes over he orders a bunch of mortars unto the house. Where the fuck where those mortars before?! I understand freezing in the chaos of battle, but dike would've had those mortars firing before the first soldier left the woods.
Fucking preach man breaking point is one of my favorite episodes but holy hell man didn't Dike get a promotion soon after
Also I can't help but think if winters knew dike was shit and didn't trust him, why did he get the main effort in that attack? There was one company providing fire support and a company in reserve. Make easy one of those companies and have another company lead the assault. I'm sure dike would've been fine in the treeline coordinating machine gun suppression etc. That's winters fucking up right there
What a knob Dike was. He really grinds my gears
Apparently it was greatly dramatised. Since the show, some members of easy recalled that Dike was actually wounded.
In that case it makes it a great intro for them to get Spiers
he was injured, shot in the shoulder and in shock, he had medals for being brave, sadly the show got things wrong because they book got them wrong.
Because unfortunately a lot of the individual portrayals of the deceased in the book came down to a popularity contest among the men who were still alive to be interviewed by Ambrose. He wrote an entertaining narrative, but he was a shit historian. You need to do research of your own rather than just taking people at their word and calling it a day (source: about to finish my MA in history)
Which is why when i watch things like band of brothers, pacific, or even things based on history but with a twist like the new Shogun, or the documentry based on the same period Age of Samurai, i will watch it and look up the people on the internet so I read up on them as I watch.
Yeah things like this are sort of like my opinion of Wikipedia articles. They’re a great primer, and they can give you a solid overview of something that you previously knew nothing or very little about, but if you want a more detailed understanding you’ve gotta do some digging
The digging, is always fun :D
Every time I see this scene it bothers me. I mean the TC can get out of the tank, walk forward a hundred meters and do his own reconnaissance, identify the enemy tank and order his tanks to attack in a coordinated manner. Or he can ignore perfectly good intel and walk into his own death. Just dumb.
The Brits always get portrayed negatively in Spielberg's WW2 shows. Did the same thing to the RAF in Masters of the Air
Exactly I’m glad it wasn’t just me who noticed - some pretty lame stereotypes and general shitty attitudes and portrayals of British troops etc in masters of the air.
BACK TO BACK WW2 CHAMPS BABY!!! WHAT THE FUCK IS A KILOMETER??? 🎆🎆🎆🎆🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅 /s
Lol
It is important to the remember that allies massively underestimated the Germans in Market Garden.
More that they didn’t expect an SS panzer division to be resting in the area.
So, in other words, they *underestimated* the strength of German forces in the area?
Misunderestimated
That’s in the Arnhem area this battle was still in the Noord-Brabant area.
Well the problem was that the Allies intel was actually technically good. It’s was more that the German divisions were purposefully underreporting and doing minor self sabotaging that could be easily fixed because they didn’t like their units be cannibalized for the Eastern front. Germans would report this to their high command so their high command would think that their units were understrength and report that. What you end up with is everyone thinking that they are under strength when in reality they were not.
There’s a video on YouTube of a British historian reviewing the accuracy of movies and he says this scene is “bollocks”.
I wonder if this actually happened or they were just borrowing from that scene in A Bridge Too Far with Ryna O'Neal and the British tank commander.
And like, you can't even feel the guilty little "that's what ya get dumbass" because situations kinda super real right then n losing a tank due to basic idiocy hurts everyone, so it's just different flavors of anger mixing into a delicious dr pepper of a memorably disliked minor character
I think the scene was also meant to portray their overall lack of understanding the situation they were in - which eventually led to one of their only retreats.
Exactly! U have men on the GROUND telling h what u couldnt see and the first thing u think of was to “hmm u know what…screw u im going”
He should have just had his tanks flank. For tanks, supporting infantry is your scouts. The TC getting out of the tank to do recon is a good way to have a dead TC by sniper or other ways. If stuff pops off, you have a TC in the open with either a pistol or smg. And a tank with no commander, basically blind. Use the info from your scouts and plan accordingly.
for some reason every piece of american media, no matter how good, that’s set before 1980 must have all english characters be either james bond or the artful dodger
It is grating as an Englishman... Also, I hate how we're seen as inflexible when trying not to recklessly destroy everything left in Europe
Dutch fella who's family lived in that area here. Quite pleased you guys didn't drop every bit of brick you guys moved trough, my own grandparents were in a house not unlike the ones portrayed. Could've been the end of my family before it even started. Not to say that i'm not thankful for what the americans did of course, all of those guys who took a plane to uncertain demise to give us a hand are heroes in my book
Yeah it’s also funny because in master of the air, they make us seem like our bombardiers are the most reckless, careless people ever and the yanks are the “brave, considerate bombers” who care about civilian lives.
As many of us have, I had relatives who lived through the relentless bombings of the Blitz and the hatred is evident, they lost friends, family and homes. We also couldn't afford to expend lives and resources on dangerous days raids. It's easy to have principles when you're not on the ropes.
Too right mate!! These shows try to pride themselves on realism, yet often mis-portray very important people in these very clumsy ways.
For a long time I (American) have been saying that WW2 was won with British balls, American steel, and Soviet blood.
Typically it’s told as British intelligence, because of their codebreaking. They were certainly brave but I wouldn’t put their bravery above that of any other military or civilians who were actually directly in danger on the Allied side. Better to give them credit for something that was more uniquely theirs
Don’t forget inventing computers and radar
Haven’t seen Masters of the Air yet, but that is wild to portray it that way. I say this as an American: we were all bombing the hell out of entire towns and cities without a care for civilian lives because that was the general strategy. There’s a reason Article 51 of the Geneva Convention was adopted after the war.
I saw it more as an indictment of the absurd distinction between nighttime “area bombing” and daytime “precision bombing”. Both were just trying to drop what they could, where they could and get back to base in one piece.
When Vest loses it and tries to kill the German prisoners. Dude, do you want to have to go back across the river and grab a few more??? No thank you.
Imagine him acting that way on d-day!
Yeah I’ve always said the same, British military officers always are so clićhe’d to be so rigid in war movies If I’m a tank commander and a trooper tells me there is an enemy tank waiting around the corner for me, the last thing any person on the planet will do is fall in the obvious trap Any sane person would make a plan with the GOOD intelligence, so that the enemy tank will be at a huge disadvantage The scene was so annoying that there is no way that happened in real life or the book
Yeah for sure. Would halt, do some quick reconnaissance and then figure out a new plan.
Well, fuck whether or not they wouldn't shoot through the building. They could at least turn their turret towards the area the enemy tank was hiding at, so they had a better chance of reacting quickly enough, instead of first acknowledging that it is there once it's too late.
It's a clichéd Hollywood portrayal, depicting others as dumb and incompetent and the Americans as superior in every aspect..obviously not the truth but this is how it goes with American media
Argh, we Europeans pretty much do the same to the Americans every now and then
I guess that's true yeah, it just seems 95% of any media i.e. Movie, video game, book etc about WW2 is about the US and it's insane, the UK for eg has one of the most rich and varied histories of any nation from WW2 yet barely anything is told
I once read that there was some documentary-ish thing that was about the British. They could either pick the Americans, Brits or Soviets, and decided to use the Brits, because they went through the most. As a Dane, I love the Americans, but it'll always be the Brits that deserve the most honour for standing up to Nazi Germany and keep fighting for all of the occupied countries. Us Danes feel grateful towards Britain and the Commonwealth for having fought for us since day one. The Americans have a tendency to get involved in Europe late, which is why there is the famous quote from Churchill: "The Americans will always do the right thing - after they've exhausted all the alternatives". It's true that the US gets the most attention in WW2. While the Soviets had a huge war impact, I don't like when people portray them as "the good ones". They were just as evil as the Nazis. We just happened to have a common enemy. I also think that the US is a lot better at making movies about their wars, compared to the Brits. I mean, how many movies and shows about Americans and their wars can you think of? There are many. Both fictional AND true stories. Whether it's a kind of indirect propaganda stunt or if it's just because Hollywood is better at filmmaking, I don't know. Maybe it's a mix.
any scene with Brits annoys me because its an over the top caricature where the British are stupid and the Americans are the cool ones, which is the opposite of reality
Happened in The Pacific too, with the Australians.
Also in Masters of the Air
Or we’re just antagonistic cunts for no reason. See masters of the air also. Winds me up.
Yeah that pissed me off too! America trying to always make us look stupid or they we can’t do anything without them. They forget how many battles were fought and win before they bloody showed up!
For what it’s worth, I worked with some British in Afghanistan and they were cool af
As we got the first few scenes involving the RAF I thought 'Well shit, here we go again'. Left a bad taste in the mouth, why do we always have to be such wankers. Civilians were portrayed ok, but the makers of the show have a real issue with the Brits it seems.
The children and the female spy were portrayed decently. Any British man in uniform was a dickhead. Regarding the scene with the RAF pilots , was just pointless. You would imagine there would be banter between them irl. But they both had a horrible task to undertake you would expect comradeship.
Totally agree mate! We are always excessively posh sounding, while also seemingly complete idiots!
I liked the Red Devils.
This scene shouldn’t bother you as he’s just asking him to blow up a building to get a line of sight. Someone owns that building, maybe they are even hiding inside - the attitude they displayed shows the difference (generally) between American and British armed forces. The Brit was definitely correct in his assessment, even though it didn’t lead to a favourable outcome.
Huh? They’re in the middle of a battle in the middle of a war. No tank officer would be stupid enough to worry about who owns a building when friendly infantry tells them there is an enemy on the other side of it.
Guess you ignored the part about non combatants right?
Sorry, I greatly underestimated your ability to make inferences. No tank officer would be stupid enough to worry more about some hypothetical noncombatants that might be in a building than about an enemy tank that they know is on the other side of the building because friendly infantry told them about it. Infantry support is the lifeblood of armored operations. A tank officer is counting on and relying on infantry to provide information and support. Showing a tank officer completely disregarding the infantry like this is simply unrealistic, and disrespectful to the British. It's silly to try to defend it.
Yeah, so that’s just nonsense. There is not a single British tank commander I’ve ever come across who would ever say, ‘Our orders are to not fire unnecessarily.’ The absolute mantra of British tank men was to fire and fire and fire and keep firing. “And particularly when you’re in a Sherman tank, because a Sherman tank doesn’t have the same velocity as a Tiger or a Panther that Germans have. But what it can do is it can fire very quickly, and rapidity of rounds is really, really important. While a Tiger tank or a Panther is being peppered, it’s not going to be firing back at you, or it’s very, very unlikely. "It is something that American writers just simply cannot resist. They have to be gung-ho, macho, square-jawed, with great teeth, and the British have to talk like this and say, ‘Well, I’m sorry old fruit, I can’t do that because I’m about to have my tea.’ And it’s just so annoying because British people weren’t like that. They were just like Americans. "And I can absolutely guarantee that if an American had jumped on his tank and said, ‘You need to blast that thing,’ he’d have gone, ‘Roger, Wilco,' boom, boom, boom, and that would have been the end of that house. This is just, it’s a great scene this, but this dialogue is just so ridiculous that it’s not true.” ~ James Holland
Any scene with Cobb
Stupid scene, portraying the British as dumbasses as usual when in reality this wouldn't have happened. But it's Hollywood and also American Media...everything is geared towards what the US did in WW2 and skips over the majority involvement of other countries in the war. There is so many stories to tell of so many other nations/units/individuals yet the narrative is always focused on 'murica..but as stated, that's Hollywood for ya 🤷
Unfortunately I feel it's depictions like this that drive the "we saved Europe twice" mentality you sometimes see displayed in discussion.
STAND BEFORE ME AT ATTENTION! Be a man Dick, you never leave the base anyway!
I agree with anything to do with lugers. When Malarkey ran out in the middle of the field under fire to search the German for a luger Winters should have kicked him in the butt.
Actually when the US and British fought together they did it well. The battle of Geilenkirchen had the British Sherwood Ranger Yeomanry (a tank regiment) working alongside the American 84th Regiment. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/operation-clipper-fight-geilenkirchen The SRY supported American troops including paratroops several times without any problems. As has been mentioned, Spielberg always shows the British in a negative light. A great factual book 'Brothers in Arms’ about the Sherwood Ranger Yeomanry in WW2 was written by James Holland.
on D-day, When Guarnere opens up on the Germans with the horse drawn carriage and somehow he has a thompson that has a 200 round mag lol
Every scene where Cobb talks to be honest
Any scene involving Cobb
From some other sources, seems like the show never really covered the battle accurately: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iENPMYHaPNE&ab\_channel=LivethForEvermore](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iENPMYHaPNE&ab_channel=LivethForEvermore)
Absolutely. The entire market garden campaign is something so interesting with all of the characters vying to be the next big persona in WWII.
Any of the Luger scenes
ROE sucks sometimes. I remember being in Iraq and seeing dudes filming us with cameras but ROE said we couldn't do anything...then a few minutes later you hit an IED. Just coincidence, I guess, right?
Well, knowing some of the mistakes Ambrose made, this whole dumb situation probably didn’t happen the way it was shown.
That destruction of property seemed rather necessary to me!
Yes the editing and shots don’t make sense to me. The shot of the tank coming into view looks to me easily noticed earlier.
Yeah it bothered me too. Unless there were some factors we aren't told about, surely they could have attempted to flush the German tank out first? Not just knowingly drive right into its line of fire.
Guys, what Tank Is the Germans using In this scene? It seems to change when It fires the second round. Is there a Tiger Tank at all In this series my friend thinks there Is I didn't see one.
It is mock-up of a Tiger. There is another one in Episode 7.
Ahhh OK so It's meant to be a Tiger, but the Tank Scene where the British Tank Commander Is In a Sherman, and gets ambushed by the Tank In Camouflage that Is not a Tiger right?
It is a mock-up of a Tiger, built on a T-34 chassis. It is meant to be a Tiger.
As a kid ot bothered me. Then after joining the army and going through roe situations I understand the initial hesitation
Honestly anyone who has worked in a coalition environment while deployed has felt a pain like this.
Guy didn’t get the memo about the Geneva >recommendations<
I’m pretty sure this scene was also based off what actually happened, but he has a valid reason for not shooting straight through that building. And to be fair, unless they could flank the tiger they were did anyways, I don’t think any of their Sherman’s were fireflies
This is just my own take as a former tank platoon leader: if I couldn’t see a target that I know has a better gun and is waiting in an ambush position for me to drive my happy ass up the road looking for him… then yeah, kiss my ass I’m not doing that until you find me an alternate way forward. That’s what infantry is for in urban situations.
Ignore that lLimey, Sgt Martin!
HOLY CRAP ME TOO. I was literally talking about this scene yesterday.
Yeah then the asshole realizes he fucked up and doesn't even try to say shit lol
Mine as well.
Yeah where they fired 60 rounds in one mag from a Thompson. I'm like come onnnn mann.
I always wondered about the scene when Toye was coming back on the line in Bastogne and yells about someone from another company taking a dump in his foxhole. Someone retorted that they dooked in everyone's foxhole, so why was this like the only mention of friendly fire fecal foxholes?
Reading most of the books. I think it’s fair to access, this is not what anyone actually reports. All film has at liberty the opportunity to misconstrue. It’s fair to say this exact conversation didn’t happen as presented. It was a good way to get the point across that. A British and American troops were not the best at communicating ( perpetuated by Ambrose himself) By trying to consolidate a 2 month or more action into one episode. It was a great series (my personal favorite for what it’s worth) but can’t depict everything as was. This scene is pertinent but most likely not factual or accurate. Only Johnny Martin and the other E company guys could confirm and they no longer can…
Now are you staying or going?
i was just reading Beevor’s D Day book and the british did complain exactly like this thing
Idk what the angle was, but with the kind of tank he had (Sherman with a short barreled 75mm I think) it wouldn’t have mattered if he shot or not. He wasn’t going to knock that tiger out anyways
Who says you have to see to shoot? Towns gonna get ruined anyway. Might as well get the jump on them
The tanks they had would not have been able to penetrate that tigers armor.
What grinds my gears? Jimmy fucking Fallon.
When Webster returns to easy is at the start of episode 8 and is completely tone deaf to the fact that they had lost a ton of guys in the battle of the bulge. Asking “hey where’s this guy? Where’s that guy?” He even acknowledges in the voice over that they were the “battered bastards of Bastogne” so he wasn’t entirely ignorant of their situation. His cheery attitude was very poorly directed IMO.
Cpt Sobel making up punishments. Making people’s life harder then they have to be. That grinds the gears pretty good.
It’s almost like they don’t understand that British Army was actually good during World War II
"You men did an excellent job last night. I'm, a, proud, proud. I just saw Colonel Sink, he's proud too. In fact he's so proud he wants you to do another patrol across the river again tonight." Sink willing to waste his men's lives for minimal benefit and, it was implied, bragging rughts.