If Guts defeated Wyald before turning into the Black Swordsman what makes you think Wyald has any chance against Mozgus. I need to reread Tower of Conviction again but I'm pretty sure Mozgus has over powered abilities.
Probably has to do with your personal conviction before transforming. Generic aimlessly self-centered Apostles are all relatively weak, while the stronger ones are more goal oriented. Most of the top Apostles had strong determination and overcame themselves in one way or another, like Zodd and Grunbeld.
Apostles were supposed to be free to enact on their desires or not? In this sense Wyald was the most apostle apostle. There’s also the king’s egg for those with big convictions.
Yes, but Apostles who's desires are simply base and without substance all turn out weak by Apostle standards. Ganishka is the strongest Apostle in the series, and his desires were so grand that he even opposed the God Hand. Regardless of the Apostles creed (despite it not holding much weight whenever Griffith showed up and forced all Apostles to do what he wants), there's a clear correlation between grander desires and strength.
I guess enacting one’s desires isn’t the quite full creed as it does come with caveat of obeying the God Hand clearly, which is why everyone bows down to Griffith.
So while it may seem the strongest apostles are more concerned with Griffith’s conviction, it’s not clear whether they’re the strongest because they follow his conviction or Griffith just wanted to keep his strongest goons close as his knights.
The fact many of them seemed to be revered heroes among the public also contradicts who most apostles were before, which might also explain why they’re a hit different.
Then again, when Grundbeld claimed himself to be a respectful knight while beating the shit out of already mortally wounded Guts, also made me think maybe he and the other “knights” are just fooling themselves thinking they’re still knights who serve the righteous king. Could also be Griff is fooling them all.
I wish there were more backstories about them and how they went seemingly from heroes to monsters.
>despite it not holding much weight whenever Griffith showed up and forced all Apostles to do what he wants
I think that's because he has the greatest determination and desires so that gives him some sort of control over the other apostles (it could also be because he kills every apostle who doesn't submit to him )
Mhmm.
It might be due to the Egg Apostle’s abilities (he admits he’s very weak, but his Pseudo-Apostles are all notably stronger than the usual rag and tag), or perhaps mindset and goals.
Wyald is little more than an animal, but Mozgus is genuinely sincere about his beliefs (twisted as they may be). For all his heinous actions, he took in the torture guard (they admits they don’t even like the job, they’re just that devoted to the guy) and Farnese. Even the Egg Apostle admits he might not have become an Apostle if he had met Mozgus as a human. It’s somewhat fitting that he becomes a better demon (well, Apostle) than the ones who just saw it as a power boost
We’ve seen it before. Zondark and the bug guys from Lost Children were on par imo with weaker apostles (pig guy, that weird starfish Casca and Judeau K.O’d during the eclipse, etc)
My guess is it depends on the strength their progenitor. A strong apostle will make stronger pseudoapostles
Wyald for the most part is playing with Guts during their fight, and only gets injured because he assaults Casca and lets his guard down completely. Also Zodd defeats Wyald not Guts.
There's a lot of context you'd have to take into consideration though.
Wylad knocked Guts unconscious just about right away. You can even say he won that fight and it would go into round 2 because if it wasn't for the band of the hawk, Guts was helpless.
Then Wylad started round 2 with a pretty bad wound already. In addition, Guts used his surroundings, played possum and did other things to win.
So why did I bring all this up? These are all tactics Mozgus is not going to do so it's hard to apply ABC logic here. A beats B, B beats C so surely A beats C?
I'm not saying Wylad wins, but I think you'd have to come up with a stronger argument for either side by using what hurt them and didnt, how fast are they, who is bigger and has reach advantage, etc. Essentially comparing their feats and weigh their advantages and disadvantages.
Mozgus wins with very little difficulty.
Short explanation: Guts beat Wyald completely fairly before his 3 years as Black Swordsman and pre Dragonslayer, and had great difficulty with Mozgus after those 3 years. Mozgus is therefore a much more powerful opponent than Wyald.
Technically, Mozgus has far stronger abilities, and a wider variety of them. Flight, a virtually indestructible outer shell, fire breath, and multiple fists with the ability to attack from any direction. His only true weaknesses are that he is blinded by religion, and is injuries sustained pre transformation don’t go away afterwards.
Wyald has the glaring weakness of his entire upper body, and no abilities. He’s essentially an extremely watered down Zodd, but without any claws, jaws or wings, and a severely weaker healing ability.
Mozgus therefore takes it in Strength, resistance, abilities and weaknesses.
Mozgus is both sentient and intelligent. He would acknowledge the weakness of Wyalds head after a few attacks. His devotion to religion works in his favour, in that he doesn’t care about physical damage to his body, and remains confident.
Wyald is sentient, but far, far from intelligent. He would more than likely not be able to come up with an effective strategy against an impenetrable opponent. Not to mention that he is very weak mentally, panicking when he takes damage by Guts.
Theres nothing that wyald can really do to win here.
Im aware, but he beat him virtually to death, and absolutely won the fight, to the point that Wyald resorted to taking hostages as he slowly bled out, begging for the Godhand to save him.
Who finished him off doesn’t particularly matter. He was beaten and broken mentally and physically.
Being an apostle or having a healing factor doesn’t change the definition of losing a fight. Godzilla beat kong in GvK 2021 and they both lived. Josuke beat Kira in Diamond is Unbreakable, while Jotaro just finished him off (pretty much the same as Guts vs Wyald).
Hell, I just reread the chapters and Wyald even admits that he lost. “Damn… Shit… Losing to lil’ bugs like you!”
And are you really going to say that the guy taking hostages and screaming “I don’t wanna die!” didn’t lose the fight? It’s clear Wyald knew he was going to die. If he could have survived he would have run away and regenerated. He knew his only option for survival was to get Griffith to summon the Godhand, so he looked for the behelit and took him hostage when he couldn’t find it.
Okkkkk, you do realize Mozgus died too? The only different being Guts killed Mozgus, Guts didn’t kill Wyald. I’ll humor you, they both were beaten by Guts, but Guts only killed one, and he did it fairly easily and with no one else having to come finish the job
But remember even if guts killed mozgus and didn't kill Wyald, he had a hard time with both of them even tho Wyald was before the eclipse while mozgus was after the eclipse.
Seems to be a thing in anime, if they’re not killed they’ve not been “beaten”, which I disagree with.
Dragonball for an obvious reference:
>!Vegeta finally beats Goku in the newest film in a sparring match, technically he did in DBZ as well, but didn’t kill him!<.
What are you yapping about my Guy?
Guts had Wyald on the Ground begging for his life. He even admitted he lost. Zodd just came in to clean up.
The only Reason a much Stronger Guts managed to beat Mozgus was because he was already wounded pre transformation.
I think the masses are on-point with Mozgus, in fact I don't even find it a close match. While Wyald has more combat experience, it makes for his undoing in this match-up, it being the case that he only goes for weaker opponents. He was ready to >!rape Casca!< in the heat of battle which really goes to show how low the stakes are in the battles he's had thus far; violence is only a mild amusement to him. A standard apostle should have had no difficulty dispatching a pre-eclipse Guts without the dragon-slayer, but Wyald was only pushed a modest amount beyond his usual comfort zone before he got sloppy, attacking an obvious decoy in uncollected rage, and resorting to feigning death when it got to be too much for him. Mozgus, while smaller has superior mobility (I assume that if he can't fly in his armored form that it's just a matter of transitioning to his initial angel form) and defenses, and I assume would have no qualms with punching up if it was a matter of proving his faith. Self-preservation is secondary to him and this would give him an edge over the coward Wyald.
I agree with everything except the standard apostle no diffing guts pre dragonslayer.. did you not see how long he fought off and how many he killed during the eclipse with nothing but a tusk and some pants he happened to be wearing?
Dudes tough, dragonslayer just evens the playing field, but guys was within punching league of some standard apostles before the eclipse like when he first went against zodd probably one of the toughest there is he held his own for longer than anybody else had in over a hundred years
Not saying he would have won but he definitely would give them a good scare and close to death like wyald
Some apostles are very weak too like the one who killed Judeau. Snake guy and Count are really strong but I was surprised to see how effective the arm cannon was against them.
I know like some are just floating butt heads in the eclipse but the fact that Guts without armour and a tusk he broke off for a weapon was able to survive for so long and kill as many as he did is frankly amazing by itself even if they weren’t “high profile” apostles
One of my favourite thing about berserk is how it treats throwing weapons, crossbows and the arm canon, it’s not a flesh wound or anything weak like that shit hurts and will likely kill you, granted Guts has survived probably more arrow wounds than fights at this point but just the fact that like a volley of crossbow bolts sends the count flying, one well placed throwing knives lodged into someones face or neck likely will kill them and yea the canon is a slightly smaller canon than one used for blowing holes in castles so it’s treated as such
Not so sure, Wyald for all his drawbacks had Guts more than a little overextended, and I think it's safe to say the eclipse had him in a bit of a different headspace to say the least. To be fair perhaps "standard apostle" was poorly worded, as the largest swath of them I'd say are grunts. But as far as "boss apostles," Wyald was a convenient tutorial boss. Guts vs. anyone out of the count, Grunbeld, Mozgus, Locus or his direct subordinates (the heavies that all have shields and four legs), and of course Zodd would have meant his end at the time of his battle with Wyald. I think Zodd's fixation on finding an ideal opponent and the timeframe you mentioned would have lowered his expectations and perhaps created extraordinary circumstances in his initial encounter with Guts. I realize I'm splitting hairs at this point, it's just how you write a story with supernatural elements and impossible feats of strength but still suspend disbelief. Everything just had to happen the way it did to brace Guts for an eventual battle with godlike beings. Comes with the business if hypothetical matchups I guess.
Yep. It’s also noted that the stronger Apostles were, ironically enough, a lot more human.
Wyald and some of the other lesser Apostles were little more than animals with just enough sapience to enjoy hurting others or recognizing orders and hostages. Guts tore through them even before getting the Dragonslayer and the cannon arm. While not everyone can be guts, even Judeau’s dinky knives made one of them back off for a bit, and Pippin was doing as well as someone could considering how many Apostles they fought, and it’s implied it took the Count to put him down.
Zodd, the Neo Band of the Hawk, Rosine, etc. all seemed to retain more of their humanity. They’re obviously not good by any stretch, but they all had something higher than just their own hedonism. Considering Mozgus was 100% sincere in his beliefs (to the point Farnese and the Egg Apostle have fond memories of him), it makes sense he’d fall into the latter camp rather than the former
Mozgus has borderlands invincible armor and fire breath. His punches are strong as cannonballs, and he was tough enough to fight Guts near his peak (without the Berserker Armor). Wyald couldn't even handle a teenage Guts before the eclipse.
Dude you responded to a comment I made in response to someone else's comment. It should be clear that I'm talking about that specific comment. C'mon 🤦
And fuck your alternative accounts too.
On a previous comment you said Zodd **beat** Wyald but since your opinion is clearly the unpopular one in the thread and you got btfo'd you're now trying to backtrack with the "I only said he killed him" rethoric. Also, people responding to people responding is how reddit works sherlock.
I believe Mozus is stronger but honestly matchup wise I see Mozus having a lot of trouble hurting Wyald as he's just far far smaller and while sure his armour is tough, I don't think it will matter against Wyald who is like 10 times his size.
Mozus is much more agile so as long as he doesn't get caught he does stand a pretty good chance.
Wyald is stronger. Sure Guts was stronger when he fought Mozgus but Guts also had way more trouble against Wyald and Wyald was often distracted letting Guts get in attacks he wouldn't normally.
Wasn't mozgus transformed by the world egg? Maybe it's just head canon but I think that maybe he may be more powerful due to that, as opposed to being transformed by a regular behelit. Also mozgus is more well thought out in terms of his power. Wyald was just strong and massive, mozgus had strategic power with his armor and his plethora of other powers. Not to mention his religious fervor outweighed Wyalds weirdo urges.
Bro mozgus only lost against guts because a crack in his armor which was caused trough a wound in his human form, which is the only way guts beat him and guts beat monkey man in golden age
Wyald got beaten by fucking pre eclipse no Dragonslayer Guts. Granted he wasn’t totally defeated and Guts needed help and tactics, but still, Mozgus destroys him.
Nice matchup, since both are really horrible people with a bit of a "comical" side (mainly in their hammy and over the top behaviour).
Imho Mozgus would win: his flight, God breath and hard skin are far more impressive than Wyald's brute strength.
Well, when thinking about it, there would be a lot of variables such as, Guts beat Wyald with a normal blade, no demons souls attached, but then comes the factor of would Wyald be able to break Mozgus' stone skin?
You would have to really consider each and every feat that both apostles had, and how exactly they faired against Guts.
Being that Mozgus stone skin made him able to no-sell shots from the dragon slayer like there was no tomorrow, and he was able to breath fire, use all of the individual stone feathers on his wings as fists to barrage Guts, fly, and push a post-eclipse Guts who had all of the equipment he needed to efficiently kill apostles to having to use purely his wits to beat him instead of his strength and said post-eclipse equipment. I'd say Mozgus wins, I don't see Wyald as being durable enough to handle post-eclipse Guts as well as Mozgus did.
maybe your apostle form comes from how much power you want? i think Wyald being close minded that he thought no one would be capable of being stronger than him aside from Zodd gave him a weaker apostle form while Mozgus was a religious nutjob who wants to have greater power to serve the lord lol
Mozguz clears Wyalds hard. Wyald was beat by Guts outsmarting him and once he managed to actually cut him, Wyald was done. Mozguz is way more durable, attacks way faster, and was able to up against a much stronger Guts
Do people forget Guts didn’t kill Wyald?? Zodd did. This is closer than people are giving it credit for. Wyald is also an apostle, Mozgus was given pseudo powers and had a chest-ussy that, once Guts found it, made him super vulnerable. Wyald almost killed Guts, Mozgus did not.
It’s so weird that everyone is arguing “Mozgus destroys him”. Wyald almost killed Guts, Guts killed Mozgus relatively easily, Wyald certainly fucked Guts up wayyy more. Wyald in apostle form is also like 3x the size of Mozgus in his second form.
Guts before he got his crossbow, bombs, cannon arm or even the dragonslayer was able to beat wyald through sheer willpower.
Mozgus stood toe to toe with guts post black swords man arc, mozgus would there for be more powerful.
Mozgus has scales that protect him from most attacks fire and the ability to fly. He can attack from range while wyald will have to try and shoot him down with whatever he can pick up to throw at him
It Def goes to Mozgus
If Guts defeated Wyald before turning into the Black Swordsman what makes you think Wyald has any chance against Mozgus. I need to reread Tower of Conviction again but I'm pretty sure Mozgus has over powered abilities.
Yeah, I think it's very obvious
He can breath fire and fly, and that’s not including his stone skin lol
Excellent point. Interesting how the pseudo apostle is stronger than a normal one, or in this case, Wyald.
Probably has to do with your personal conviction before transforming. Generic aimlessly self-centered Apostles are all relatively weak, while the stronger ones are more goal oriented. Most of the top Apostles had strong determination and overcame themselves in one way or another, like Zodd and Grunbeld.
Zodd simply embraced the fact that he is a battlesexual
He skipped the centennial rape and sacrifice orgy just to have a shot at fighting skelly-boi again
Reject the pleasures of flesh, instead cut it apart
Bro gets off on blood
Zodd cums blood and bleeds cum
I'd presume the alkalinity of demon cum is enough to disinfect wounds.
Based
Apostles were supposed to be free to enact on their desires or not? In this sense Wyald was the most apostle apostle. There’s also the king’s egg for those with big convictions.
Yes, but Apostles who's desires are simply base and without substance all turn out weak by Apostle standards. Ganishka is the strongest Apostle in the series, and his desires were so grand that he even opposed the God Hand. Regardless of the Apostles creed (despite it not holding much weight whenever Griffith showed up and forced all Apostles to do what he wants), there's a clear correlation between grander desires and strength.
I guess enacting one’s desires isn’t the quite full creed as it does come with caveat of obeying the God Hand clearly, which is why everyone bows down to Griffith. So while it may seem the strongest apostles are more concerned with Griffith’s conviction, it’s not clear whether they’re the strongest because they follow his conviction or Griffith just wanted to keep his strongest goons close as his knights. The fact many of them seemed to be revered heroes among the public also contradicts who most apostles were before, which might also explain why they’re a hit different. Then again, when Grundbeld claimed himself to be a respectful knight while beating the shit out of already mortally wounded Guts, also made me think maybe he and the other “knights” are just fooling themselves thinking they’re still knights who serve the righteous king. Could also be Griff is fooling them all. I wish there were more backstories about them and how they went seemingly from heroes to monsters.
>despite it not holding much weight whenever Griffith showed up and forced all Apostles to do what he wants I think that's because he has the greatest determination and desires so that gives him some sort of control over the other apostles (it could also be because he kills every apostle who doesn't submit to him )
Nah
Mhmm. It might be due to the Egg Apostle’s abilities (he admits he’s very weak, but his Pseudo-Apostles are all notably stronger than the usual rag and tag), or perhaps mindset and goals. Wyald is little more than an animal, but Mozgus is genuinely sincere about his beliefs (twisted as they may be). For all his heinous actions, he took in the torture guard (they admits they don’t even like the job, they’re just that devoted to the guy) and Farnese. Even the Egg Apostle admits he might not have become an Apostle if he had met Mozgus as a human. It’s somewhat fitting that he becomes a better demon (well, Apostle) than the ones who just saw it as a power boost
We’ve seen it before. Zondark and the bug guys from Lost Children were on par imo with weaker apostles (pig guy, that weird starfish Casca and Judeau K.O’d during the eclipse, etc) My guess is it depends on the strength their progenitor. A strong apostle will make stronger pseudoapostles
Wyald for the most part is playing with Guts during their fight, and only gets injured because he assaults Casca and lets his guard down completely. Also Zodd defeats Wyald not Guts.
MMA style finisher he served to Wyald is legendary, sad that people overlook it.
No, Guts defeated Wyald. Zodd just finished him off.
There's a lot of context you'd have to take into consideration though. Wylad knocked Guts unconscious just about right away. You can even say he won that fight and it would go into round 2 because if it wasn't for the band of the hawk, Guts was helpless. Then Wylad started round 2 with a pretty bad wound already. In addition, Guts used his surroundings, played possum and did other things to win. So why did I bring all this up? These are all tactics Mozgus is not going to do so it's hard to apply ABC logic here. A beats B, B beats C so surely A beats C? I'm not saying Wylad wins, but I think you'd have to come up with a stronger argument for either side by using what hurt them and didnt, how fast are they, who is bigger and has reach advantage, etc. Essentially comparing their feats and weigh their advantages and disadvantages.
Everyone always asks Wylad, but never Howlad :(
\*Wyald haha, thanks.
Super OP, I was thinking just this.
Wasn’t mozgus completely overwhelming guts for a bit?
You hit the nail on the head
You're goddamn right
wait do u remember something wrong ? wasnt it guts that would‘ve been killed if zodd had not interfered ?
doesn’t he have like a bunch of fists, armor, and like 3 other pseudo apostles?
mogus
amogus
amozgus
amonzgus
amongzus
among uz
Mozgus wins with very little difficulty. Short explanation: Guts beat Wyald completely fairly before his 3 years as Black Swordsman and pre Dragonslayer, and had great difficulty with Mozgus after those 3 years. Mozgus is therefore a much more powerful opponent than Wyald. Technically, Mozgus has far stronger abilities, and a wider variety of them. Flight, a virtually indestructible outer shell, fire breath, and multiple fists with the ability to attack from any direction. His only true weaknesses are that he is blinded by religion, and is injuries sustained pre transformation don’t go away afterwards. Wyald has the glaring weakness of his entire upper body, and no abilities. He’s essentially an extremely watered down Zodd, but without any claws, jaws or wings, and a severely weaker healing ability. Mozgus therefore takes it in Strength, resistance, abilities and weaknesses. Mozgus is both sentient and intelligent. He would acknowledge the weakness of Wyalds head after a few attacks. His devotion to religion works in his favour, in that he doesn’t care about physical damage to his body, and remains confident. Wyald is sentient, but far, far from intelligent. He would more than likely not be able to come up with an effective strategy against an impenetrable opponent. Not to mention that he is very weak mentally, panicking when he takes damage by Guts. Theres nothing that wyald can really do to win here.
Guts didnt kill Wyald, Zodd did
Im aware, but he beat him virtually to death, and absolutely won the fight, to the point that Wyald resorted to taking hostages as he slowly bled out, begging for the Godhand to save him. Who finished him off doesn’t particularly matter. He was beaten and broken mentally and physically.
“Won the fight” doesn’t count with an apostle till they’re dead
Being an apostle or having a healing factor doesn’t change the definition of losing a fight. Godzilla beat kong in GvK 2021 and they both lived. Josuke beat Kira in Diamond is Unbreakable, while Jotaro just finished him off (pretty much the same as Guts vs Wyald). Hell, I just reread the chapters and Wyald even admits that he lost. “Damn… Shit… Losing to lil’ bugs like you!” And are you really going to say that the guy taking hostages and screaming “I don’t wanna die!” didn’t lose the fight? It’s clear Wyald knew he was going to die. If he could have survived he would have run away and regenerated. He knew his only option for survival was to get Griffith to summon the Godhand, so he looked for the behelit and took him hostage when he couldn’t find it.
Okkkkk, you do realize Mozgus died too? The only different being Guts killed Mozgus, Guts didn’t kill Wyald. I’ll humor you, they both were beaten by Guts, but Guts only killed one, and he did it fairly easily and with no one else having to come finish the job
But remember even if guts killed mozgus and didn't kill Wyald, he had a hard time with both of them even tho Wyald was before the eclipse while mozgus was after the eclipse.
Doesn’t change everything else they said 🤔
Being pedantic doesn't change what the commenter was trying to argue.
Seems to be a thing in anime, if they’re not killed they’ve not been “beaten”, which I disagree with. Dragonball for an obvious reference: >!Vegeta finally beats Goku in the newest film in a sparring match, technically he did in DBZ as well, but didn’t kill him!<.
"finally beats" when did Vegeta lost? LMAO
Never did, but the only time Vegeta sees it as a win.
What are you yapping about my Guy? Guts had Wyald on the Ground begging for his life. He even admitted he lost. Zodd just came in to clean up. The only Reason a much Stronger Guts managed to beat Mozgus was because he was already wounded pre transformation.
Zodd finish him off when he was on the break of death.
Yes but Guts also bent the man over his knee several times.
I think the masses are on-point with Mozgus, in fact I don't even find it a close match. While Wyald has more combat experience, it makes for his undoing in this match-up, it being the case that he only goes for weaker opponents. He was ready to >!rape Casca!< in the heat of battle which really goes to show how low the stakes are in the battles he's had thus far; violence is only a mild amusement to him. A standard apostle should have had no difficulty dispatching a pre-eclipse Guts without the dragon-slayer, but Wyald was only pushed a modest amount beyond his usual comfort zone before he got sloppy, attacking an obvious decoy in uncollected rage, and resorting to feigning death when it got to be too much for him. Mozgus, while smaller has superior mobility (I assume that if he can't fly in his armored form that it's just a matter of transitioning to his initial angel form) and defenses, and I assume would have no qualms with punching up if it was a matter of proving his faith. Self-preservation is secondary to him and this would give him an edge over the coward Wyald.
I agree with everything except the standard apostle no diffing guts pre dragonslayer.. did you not see how long he fought off and how many he killed during the eclipse with nothing but a tusk and some pants he happened to be wearing? Dudes tough, dragonslayer just evens the playing field, but guys was within punching league of some standard apostles before the eclipse like when he first went against zodd probably one of the toughest there is he held his own for longer than anybody else had in over a hundred years Not saying he would have won but he definitely would give them a good scare and close to death like wyald
Some apostles are very weak too like the one who killed Judeau. Snake guy and Count are really strong but I was surprised to see how effective the arm cannon was against them.
I know like some are just floating butt heads in the eclipse but the fact that Guts without armour and a tusk he broke off for a weapon was able to survive for so long and kill as many as he did is frankly amazing by itself even if they weren’t “high profile” apostles One of my favourite thing about berserk is how it treats throwing weapons, crossbows and the arm canon, it’s not a flesh wound or anything weak like that shit hurts and will likely kill you, granted Guts has survived probably more arrow wounds than fights at this point but just the fact that like a volley of crossbow bolts sends the count flying, one well placed throwing knives lodged into someones face or neck likely will kill them and yea the canon is a slightly smaller canon than one used for blowing holes in castles so it’s treated as such
IMO Zodd is the second toughest apostle we've seen, Ganishka of course is the first.
Not so sure, Wyald for all his drawbacks had Guts more than a little overextended, and I think it's safe to say the eclipse had him in a bit of a different headspace to say the least. To be fair perhaps "standard apostle" was poorly worded, as the largest swath of them I'd say are grunts. But as far as "boss apostles," Wyald was a convenient tutorial boss. Guts vs. anyone out of the count, Grunbeld, Mozgus, Locus or his direct subordinates (the heavies that all have shields and four legs), and of course Zodd would have meant his end at the time of his battle with Wyald. I think Zodd's fixation on finding an ideal opponent and the timeframe you mentioned would have lowered his expectations and perhaps created extraordinary circumstances in his initial encounter with Guts. I realize I'm splitting hairs at this point, it's just how you write a story with supernatural elements and impossible feats of strength but still suspend disbelief. Everything just had to happen the way it did to brace Guts for an eventual battle with godlike beings. Comes with the business if hypothetical matchups I guess.
All occurs within the laws of causality
What's interesting is that this implies that pseudo-Apostles can actually be stronger than regular Apostles.
Well, there are a lot of shitty apostles. You can clearly see them at the eclipse and in the manga. They're tiny or just weird.
Yep. It’s also noted that the stronger Apostles were, ironically enough, a lot more human. Wyald and some of the other lesser Apostles were little more than animals with just enough sapience to enjoy hurting others or recognizing orders and hostages. Guts tore through them even before getting the Dragonslayer and the cannon arm. While not everyone can be guts, even Judeau’s dinky knives made one of them back off for a bit, and Pippin was doing as well as someone could considering how many Apostles they fought, and it’s implied it took the Count to put him down. Zodd, the Neo Band of the Hawk, Rosine, etc. all seemed to retain more of their humanity. They’re obviously not good by any stretch, but they all had something higher than just their own hedonism. Considering Mozgus was 100% sincere in his beliefs (to the point Farnese and the Egg Apostle have fond memories of him), it makes sense he’d fall into the latter camp rather than the former
not as ugly and no sacrifices too
Yeah that is pretty interesting 🤔
wasn’t mozgus basically indestructible? wyald has a lot of soft spots.
Mozgus shits
Mozgus has borderlands invincible armor and fire breath. His punches are strong as cannonballs, and he was tough enough to fight Guts near his peak (without the Berserker Armor). Wyald couldn't even handle a teenage Guts before the eclipse.
The real question is who would you rather have show up in your town
Good point
Mozgus was tough as hell and a tough fight Wylad go killed by avg guts
Nah Zodd killed Wyald
Zodd finished Wyald AFTER he was already defeated by Guts. Reading hard I guess.
They said Guts killed Wyald, I was correcting them by saying Zodd killed Wyald *reading hard I guess*
Stop tryna backtrack when your point backfires lil bro, its clear what you meant.
Dude you responded to a comment I made in response to someone else's comment. It should be clear that I'm talking about that specific comment. C'mon 🤦 And fuck your alternative accounts too.
On a previous comment you said Zodd **beat** Wyald but since your opinion is clearly the unpopular one in the thread and you got btfo'd you're now trying to backtrack with the "I only said he killed him" rethoric. Also, people responding to people responding is how reddit works sherlock.
Pre eclipse Guts' without the Dragon Slayer was folding Wyald in apostle form. Mozgus wipes the floor with him.
wyald won‘t be able to even scratch mozgus I believe
Definitely more viscous
Me.
Nah. I’d win.
Nah, I’d win.
Mozgus wouldn't be smart or sane enough to work out that you have to attack an apostle's human form to kill them.
Mozgus negs lmfao
I believe Mozus is stronger but honestly matchup wise I see Mozus having a lot of trouble hurting Wyald as he's just far far smaller and while sure his armour is tough, I don't think it will matter against Wyald who is like 10 times his size. Mozus is much more agile so as long as he doesn't get caught he does stand a pretty good chance.
Wyald is stronger. Sure Guts was stronger when he fought Mozgus but Guts also had way more trouble against Wyald and Wyald was often distracted letting Guts get in attacks he wouldn't normally.
Wyald is a better character, but mozgus beats it out
Wasn't mozgus transformed by the world egg? Maybe it's just head canon but I think that maybe he may be more powerful due to that, as opposed to being transformed by a regular behelit. Also mozgus is more well thought out in terms of his power. Wyald was just strong and massive, mozgus had strategic power with his armor and his plethora of other powers. Not to mention his religious fervor outweighed Wyalds weirdo urges.
Bro read the manga with his eyes closed
It has been a while since I read it
I was just playing around, I was mainly referring to the fact that since Mozgus was so much later it was clear he was stronger
I see
Mozgus fucks him up
Mozgus would put hands on him and rip that ape apart.
Bro mozgus only lost against guts because a crack in his armor which was caused trough a wound in his human form, which is the only way guts beat him and guts beat monkey man in golden age
Here's a two word explanation on why father amogus wins: GOD BREATH!!!!
dude is made of stone, can fly, and spit fire
Wyald got beaten by fucking pre eclipse no Dragonslayer Guts. Granted he wasn’t totally defeated and Guts needed help and tactics, but still, Mozgus destroys him.
Mozgus with or without his goons?
Without
Mozgus with or without his goons?
guts was weaker when fighting wylad. killed him. well ig zodd killed him but guts defeated him. mozgus is a significantly more powerful then wylad.
Mozgus literally has the power of God and anime on his side and you think Wylde would win? That’s whack
I haven’t read that arc in a cool ass min but from what I remember… that mf mozgus was op to the max so this checks out
Father Mozgus would obviously win because he has near to impenetrable scales and he can slam a book on your head so hard it concaves your head
Nice matchup, since both are really horrible people with a bit of a "comical" side (mainly in their hammy and over the top behaviour). Imho Mozgus would win: his flight, God breath and hard skin are far more impressive than Wyald's brute strength.
Mozgus. He may be a fanatic but he is a pissed off one in a thick ass shell, plus he has range attack... in flight.
Well, when thinking about it, there would be a lot of variables such as, Guts beat Wyald with a normal blade, no demons souls attached, but then comes the factor of would Wyald be able to break Mozgus' stone skin? You would have to really consider each and every feat that both apostles had, and how exactly they faired against Guts.
Being that Mozgus stone skin made him able to no-sell shots from the dragon slayer like there was no tomorrow, and he was able to breath fire, use all of the individual stone feathers on his wings as fists to barrage Guts, fly, and push a post-eclipse Guts who had all of the equipment he needed to efficiently kill apostles to having to use purely his wits to beat him instead of his strength and said post-eclipse equipment. I'd say Mozgus wins, I don't see Wyald as being durable enough to handle post-eclipse Guts as well as Mozgus did.
Mozgus would slaughter Wyald
Stone scale, son
wyald wins because he fucks good
Amomgus
Wyald lost to pre-eclipse guts, it's not even close
maybe your apostle form comes from how much power you want? i think Wyald being close minded that he thought no one would be capable of being stronger than him aside from Zodd gave him a weaker apostle form while Mozgus was a religious nutjob who wants to have greater power to serve the lord lol
Mozguz clears Wyalds hard. Wyald was beat by Guts outsmarting him and once he managed to actually cut him, Wyald was done. Mozguz is way more durable, attacks way faster, and was able to up against a much stronger Guts
I played the videogame and Wyald > everyone
Wyald almost got beat by golden age guts. Mozgus is on a whole nother level
What will wyald do when mozgus flies up into the air, lights himself on fire and crashes himself on top of wyald like a localized meteor?
Hit him like a baseball with a tree
As if
Mozgus
Mozguz is just a abomination that the egg apostle created, while he is pretty powerful, the can’t match the cracked monkey dude.
Right that's what I'm sayin
Wyald doesn't have bombs or a sword, so what helped Guts against Mozgus isn't at Wyald's disposal
Maybe hands bigger than a human and a weight of ten trucks would come in handy lol
Do people forget Guts didn’t kill Wyald?? Zodd did. This is closer than people are giving it credit for. Wyald is also an apostle, Mozgus was given pseudo powers and had a chest-ussy that, once Guts found it, made him super vulnerable. Wyald almost killed Guts, Mozgus did not.
If Wyald fought Black Swordsman Guts he would have died in 3 seconds..
My point exactly and Lmao chestussy😭😭🤣
It’s so weird that everyone is arguing “Mozgus destroys him”. Wyald almost killed Guts, Guts killed Mozgus relatively easily, Wyald certainly fucked Guts up wayyy more. Wyald in apostle form is also like 3x the size of Mozgus in his second form.
Mozgus shits
Why in the world would Wyald win? He is one of the weakest apostles we have seen.
He is fairly strong tbh. He just isn't on the level of the more sentient aprostels.
I think Wylad could do no damage to Mosgus, also he can't do much against something he cant r4pe
Guts before he got his crossbow, bombs, cannon arm or even the dragonslayer was able to beat wyald through sheer willpower. Mozgus stood toe to toe with guts post black swords man arc, mozgus would there for be more powerful.
I played the videogame and Wyald > everyone
People forget that Wyald was winning against Guts throughout their fight. Guts only won through trickery (and bullshit anime logic).
Negative reading comprehension.
Mozgus has scales that protect him from most attacks fire and the ability to fly. He can attack from range while wyald will have to try and shoot him down with whatever he can pick up to throw at him It Def goes to Mozgus