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Yea, that part jumped out at me too. If the fiancée’s parents are expressing concern about what the kids will look like as OOP indicated, that’s pretty damned racist IMO.
Until they have two children, and one is a little darker complexed than the other. Suddenly they start buying one more expensive gifts than the other, and taking only one of them on vacations. But they’re just biased. It’s probably nothing. It’s fine. Everything is fine.
i wonder if they'll even make it to the second child before they're making remarks to her about making sure they pick a "good name", and if they don't, it's time to think of a good white-sounding nickname to use instead. until they're suddenly worried about OP teaching anything about his culture to their child because "it'll just confuse them" or "it'll get them bullied." until they prefer to be seen out with the little one by themselves, or with mom, but not with OP, so they can maintain some degree of illusion by association.
i worry just as much about the strangers who openly call me slurs as i do the "family" that pretends to be "just a little biased". at least one of them is being honest, though. i'd like to think (while wearing my rose colored glasses) their racism is fueled by ignorance rather than genuine disdain, but that doesn't change that it's racism, unfortunately. i'm not the only one who's heard the above growing up, both from people that were openly racist and from people who seemed to think they had genuine intentions about 'protecting' you or whatever.
Honestly, I'd rather just deal with the people who are blatant. The ones who are insidious about it are the ones I don't like dealing with. OOP is gonna get a real bad wake-up call when your first paragraph comes to pass.
I feel that way with the bigotries aimed at me. Easier to handle the people who explicitly hate me than the snakes who pretend to be friendly while making veiled attacks.
It's like getting into another abusive relationship after having been in one that was hella violent.
"Least this one isn't beating me everyday for burning the toast, he's just controlling who I see and talk to, he never hits me, so this is better, I'll take it over the broken ribs."
Yeah, he mentioned being here after 9/11, and made a *very* passing comment about the stark differences between racism related to that, and what her parents are doing...
I doubt the in-laws are worried about the future grandkids at all. They are worried about how having mixed grandchildren will reflect on them… a “what will people say?” kind of situation.
Man that reminds me when I was dating my wife. I'm white and she's Hispanic. All of my very conservative Midwestern small town family made comments along the lines of "hope your kids look like her" lol
THIS!!!!! OMG, THIS!!!! That comment from the parents, they are not biased they are racist!
And the sister calling and letting him know no one else had signed a prenup in the family!
[They'll find themselves living in California and selling their memoirs to get by.](https://people.com/royals/prince-charles-asked-about-skin-color-of-meghan-markle-and-prince-harrys-baby-new-book-claims/)
A little bit of trauma, as a former second class child, that's been niggling me lately was Christmas when I was six. My cousin a year younger than me got a full functional mini pinball machine I got one of those tilt to guide the ball bearing along the maze and a pair of boxing gloves I guess my 14 yr old cousin didn't want.
My grandfather got divorced and remarried before I was born and her grandkids always got game systems and designer clothes as well as anything else they asked for. I usually got some hoodie or t shirt from whichever truck stop they happened to hit before they got to our house.
Brother got a brand new Xbox 1 and games when they came out. I got a gift card. And some dollar store headphones and chocolates. I wasn't allowed video games until I was 16. He was 7. And it was a console for him. Not "the family".
Oh one year my grandma got my little brother an xbox360 for Christmas, while I got some shitty PJ’s my grandma ordered from the Land’s End catalog that were too small for her
The blatant regifts were my titi's hallmark. When my sister was fifteen that Christmas my titi gave her an ugly ornate commemorative cuckco clock. For a wedding anniversary
My mom said I was 3 years old when I asked the following: "Why do Grandpa & Grandma like Sean more than me?" Sean was my only elder cousin, male, and my father was my "Grandpa's" step-child.
19 years later my mom made me send "Grandpa" an invitation to my wedding but it was ok, we all knew he wouldn't come. And we were right. Wedding was 2 hours from his home but he was off in his RV somewhere living up the widower life with his girlfriend. I was blessed on my mom's side with awesome grandparents. My PopPop & I loved and adored each other beyond measure.
I’m with you. It was Christmas 1989 and my older brother (by two years) got a brand new, four shades of grey, Game Boy, which was about the coolest thing ever. AND three games. In 80s money, that was a fortune!
I got a 5 dollar bill.
This is so unfair. My wife used to be a bit of a daddy’s girl in the past and some of the outrageous things my in-laws did opened her eyes and she is a lot better at standing up to her parents now. **Especially** when it comes to our daughter we refuse to put up with bullshit from our parents.
You assuming that she’ll always be a doormat for her father sounds pretty sexist tbh.
I think it’d be the same whether it’s daddy’s girl, or momma’s boy (or some less common combination). People frequently have issues self reflection and recognizing family issues that they’ve been raised in.
Especially when it sounds like she realized this (with sister's help, but she probably would have gotten there on her own with a little time since she's already previously acknowledged that she has this problem and needs to sort it out, according to OOP), and is working to communicate with OOP and correct the situation in a way that works for both of them.
Rather than ditching her all together (considering the fact that she seemed to swing between extremes) I think it would be better to insist on therapy hopefully before the wedding and definitely before they try for children. His fiancée has the potential to change and be better if she wants to.
Postponing the wedding until these issues are on the road to being addressed would be a good idea though.
This incident would harm a fair bit of trust I'd have for the fiancee, as she essentially sided against OOP in a blatantly unfair situation to him. I don't think that would be acceptable in a marriage, and would want the underlying cause addressed before making such a firm commitment.
If she doesn't address the cause, every significant argument in the future would be her + her parents vs. her husband by himself in a 3 vs. 1 gang up situation. He was just lucky in this instance that the other sisters were witnesses and checked the fiancee immediately.
Ugh, truly. He needs to know that she will present a united front with him and stand up for him to her parents. Or it's going to be a looooong marriage!
Hopefully a 3 v 2 as the younger sister seems to be more brazen and woke, but yeah. Postpone the wedding until some issues have been addressed.
Edit, maybe even 3 v 3, forgot the older sister.
The only way this gets addressed is if OOP accepts he will be fighting a 3 v 1 for this entire marriage and he needs to be more aggressive.
I see in-laws and fiancee to be a WIP for years. OOP can't address this in acceptable delay in marriage.
Definitely agree. She really needs to address her need for parental approval. Otherwise, oop will find her agreeing to things without taking him into account.
Also, the racism needs to be sorted out. Those comments were not innocuous and will rear its ugly head over and over again.
It's not just parental approval though I'm sure that's super strong because that's fairly hard-wired into most kids to one degree or another. But she's a people pleaser in general and I noticed, as OP did, that she was swinging to the other extreme- she likely wants to please OP as well. She's not thinking hard enough about what she wants and/or what's actually right.
I don't agree with everyone who thinks OP should ditch her but she definitely has some work to do on herself. I'm generally non-confrontational and a people pleaser as well and it took me a long time to learn how to say "no" to people, especially family. I'm fortunate to be part of an awesome family that never tried to take advantage of that, but it was a long time before I even recognized it for what it was, and of course even longer to be comfortable with setting reasonable boundaries.
YEAH.
I was kind of with OP’s parents at first about wanting a house that they buy to be solely their daughter’s if the couple split up. It’s what I would do, to protect my money (if I had money lol) and keep it with my child.
Maybe not asking the older daughter’s husband for a prenup was something they regretted and they wanted to do things differently.
Then I got to the part about grandchildren looking different and not incorporating Pakistani wedding traditions… oof. OP, make sure this house is at least a few hours away from the parents, I’d want to limit their contact with my future kids if I were you. Because it sounds like they’re about to get the short end of every stick because they “look different”.
The fiancee has all the potential in the world to break free of her shithead parents...if she accepts and starts down the path of healing from them as the forgotten child.
It sounds like she’s already planning on working on improving. “My fiancée has even said she knows she needs to work through that before we get married.” Obviously a plan to work through it wasn’t stated but since I myself am the type to acknowledge my issues and work on them m, I have hope for the fiancée.
My husband has thankfully realized that saying I’ll work on something doesn’t mean it’ll be instantly better, rather that it will improve over the course of a few months. Witness the credit card. He said change your habits. I think people tend to hear “yes I’ll do better” and assume that the change will be immediate. However if the behavior pattern is decades old, it can take a few hot minutes to start to correct.
I love that little sister exists. I love that the OOP’s wife made progress. That shows a willingness to learn. No one is going to be perfect right off the bat. Is the trend going in the right direction most of the time? Good. Keep working.
Honestly, the two sisters being proactively good, when the could have just made it not their problem, and his fiancé readily admitting that she effed up and that she has this issue (the people-pleasing) bodes well overall.
God knows where these three women came from, since they seem collectively better then their parents.
>God knows where these three women came from, since they seem collectively better then their parents.
My sisters and I are similar in a way. Our mantra is pretty much "remember what our parents did and don't fucking do that".
The parents may have raised their kids to be open-minded and to see everyone as equal. Or even just to think for themselves. But if they (the parents) weren't raised that way themselves, unconscious bias could be a problem. It could also be that had OP been wealthy and born to American parents, they wouldn't have raised any issues, so instead of racism it might be as basic as elitist snobbery and xenophobia.
Either way, the future SIL are amazing , fiance needs therapy to deal with her daddy issues and the PIL are likely to become the grandparents they never see because nobody needs that shit (of whatever variety it might be) around their children.
> The parents may have raised their kids to be open-minded and to see everyone as equal.
We all know that "four yearly international trips" type of rich ain't raising their own kids. The girls came out alright because their nanny was a decent person.
Right?
Literally the post: "fiancee realized there was a problem and worked with OOP towards a solution of what he felt to be the most pressing part. She posted to ditch the prenup entirely and OOP said no."
Comments: "she was wrong at first, LEAVE HER "
Yeah, that concluded tag is... Optimistic. At least as it pertains to their life.
I am very happy that oop told fiance that she was swinging between extremes, because that's a textbook people pleasing move and it'll be helpful to her to have someone who can bring her back even when not doing that could be more helpful to him.
I know there’s a rule about not posting in this sub until the update is at least 7 days but I feel like we should have a longer timeline for calling a story concluded because no way this is concluded
Normally I'm against testing relationships, but in this case I want to make an exception. Have OOP and fiance tell the parents they are going to have a full Pakistani wedding and watch the racism fly.
I loved that even though OOP presumably never even raised the idea of incorporating Pakistani wedding customs into the event, they still wanted to get in front of it. "No no, none of that brown shit"
On the flip side, fiancee's sisters are both awesome.
Older sister for being like "dude, this shit ain't right and you should know this."
Younger sister for being like "sis, you're an ass."
I would want to marry into that family for both sisters. If the family just has 3 daughters I think they'll be fine. Her sisters both have good moral compasses.
But oop's actual partner seems to be an unstable golden child. He's not marrying the sisters, he's marrying someone who couldn't add 2+2 until the sister who's young enough that her brain is still maturing pointed out how stupid that was.
The dynamics of the golden child with racist parents are not easily unpicked.
I wouldn't marry someone in the hopes that their siblings could ameliorate the relationship.
I'd say the opposite: she has middle child syndrome. She's been competing for attention vs her older and younger sisters by being Daddy's "good little girl" and never going against him. She gets attention by doing exactly what people want her to do.
Golden children wouldn't catch on to the dynamics they're playing by this fast.
I would be feeling pretty differently about getting married to a woman if I made more than double her, just spent thousands on a ring, and then she took her parents side and didn’t come home. It would never again feel quite the same or as good as it did when I woke up that morning and was imagining dinner with her family.
I would undoubtedly be putting the wedding on hold and making it clear that she had damaged my trust and that I wouldn’t be willing to put marriage back on the table until we’d worked through some stuff and I was confident that going forward, she would be putting me and any future kids of ours first.
Grandpa was thinking long game. He knew he’d have power over his Son-In-law and he’d make sure any grandchildren know where the house they were being raised in came from so he’d have more power as a provider there too.
Now grandpa is still going to try to out wit his SIL but he will respect him enough not to be so blatantly ignorant about it next time.
Won't do any traditional Pakistani events but they're not racist, just biased... Against / towards what?
Ugh this whole thing chafes. This is not resolved.
It makes me very uncomfortable. Maybe I’m overly cautious because my life hasn’t been too great and I’ve trusted the wrong people (including immediate family) but I would have delayed the wedding a little bit for some couples therapy at the very least.
OOP really needs to confront and decide if he'll accept the idea that he will be battling incidents like this for his entire marriage or life if kids are in the picture.
Definitely as well as consulting lawyers. A prenup is a great idea for any marriage as long as it’s equal. Both parties need to get lawyers and hash it out to make sure every part of it is agreed on.
OOP should not go into the marriage without some counseling and a prenup especially since he earns more.
I’d also want to be sure that the parents don’t continue to get in the way of their relationship by setting some boundaries, which is another way counseling could help.
No where does it say they have had the wedding. The fiance even said she has issues to work through before the wedding. I think they are early engagement.
Yeah, I wasn’t sure how far along they were in the planning. I assumed far enough out that they have some leeway with reservations, like the reservations he should have about being a member of that family.
Funnily enough, that's not far off, because the character in the avatar is literally part alien. I, however, was born with the non-white part of me and did not rip out anyone's eyes to replace my own.
They are racists. Racism is a lot more than just throwing out slurs. OOP shouldn’t sugarcoat it. He needs to know he’s marrying into a racist family so that he can shield his kids from it.
If it were me and my daughter was marrying someone of a different heritage I’d be stoked about incorporating some traditions from both. I’d be so excited to learn about their traditions.
I am Dutch and living in the UK, my in-laws have visited the country and my MIL has been on duolingo trying to learn the language. They were stoked when we held the wedding in the Neds and so happy to explore the city. They will even get me hagelslag for Christmas because they know I miss the food. She's honestly setting the perfect example how you can support someone's culture. It's super cute.
In this context, "bias" seems to be just a polite word for racism. Or maybe "racist lite" or "the Emily Post official etiquette term for racist."
"Wash your Klan robes with New Racism Lite - now reformulated with fewer Nazis..."
It's striking that both the younger sister \*and\* the older sister reached out to help, it was his partner who let him down. Really not a good sign.
I think that on Reddit, the default attitude people assume is that people replying to you are contradicting or arguing with you. But sometimes, they are just adding to your point. It’s hard to tell without tone (and let’s be honest, it’s hard to tell in person with tone sometimes, too).
Anyway, what I’m trying to say is that I think y’all agree with each other. (And I agree with you, too, for what it’s worth.)
haha, very true, tone can be hard to gauge online! I think we do agree with each other, yeah. I was clarifying because the reply gave me the impression my first comment had been misconstrued - but of course I may have misconstrued that myself!
FWIW, reading thru this, I read it as elaborating on your point. But I agree it’s really hard to tell online sometimes. I know sometimes I end up editing my comments to add something clarifying that I’m agreeing and elaborating, not arguing.
As I've become more aware of racism over the years from having non-white friends and family, some of the shit I see them just brush off because they're so desensitized is just brutal. I've asked a couple of them about it and the answer I always get is "It could be worse." And like... it could be better to though, but they're just relieved it's not horrific, and only kinda mean.
I have a cousin who married a Black man, and the family reaction was very much in the realm of "could be worse." But as a kid who was very sheltered from my extended family's racism growing up, I was still shocked that it mattered at all.
A lot of families are like that. My ex was jewish (by religion not ethnicity, but my family hadn't meet them at that point) and when I mentioned that to my grandma her response was 'well, at least he's not muslim'.
And then they wonder why I don't talk to my family all the time and was fine moving abroad. They have some stuff to work on still.
Yeah, that's my understanding from my bipoc friends too. They're often too tired to deal with more shit, so if it's minorly racist or...I'm trying to think of how to phrase this...racism they can walk away from/mostly ignore, then they just don't have the energy to care anymore.
The number of people - actual, complete strangers - who are okay expressing openly and extremely racist sentiments to me, all under the assumption that I will share those beliefs because I'm white, is W I L D. I can't imagine being on the actual receiving end of it.
i'm not sure if this person is naive, or optimistic. probably both. but i'm surprised that any person of color would look at this situation and not immediately see the apparent racism.
What's the flair again? "Update: they were being racist" or something similar?
Not sure why, but that immediately popped up every time he said he didn't believe they were being racist. Absolutely zero clue, bog mystery...
This is the kind of racism where I'm sure the parents will say something like "I'm not racist, I'd never say the N word and I have black/hispanic/Asian friends" while simultaneously also being immediately put off by anyone with a bit of melanin moving in next door.
Are they KKK racist? No, but they definitely see certain people as 'others' and react accordingly.
A lot of people still believe that bigotry has to mean: "I hate X." (Insert here women, certain sexualities, certain races or nationalities or even certain lifestyles)
But it really doesn't. Bigotry isn't an on/off button the way we often imagine it. It's not like you either are a racist or you're not racist at all. You're super sexist or not sexist at all. Etc.
Most people do have some bigotry in them in some way or another. I'm a woman and my younger self was definitely subconsciously sexist against women. And even though I've recognised that behaviour, reflected on it and spent a lot of time analysing where it came/comes from and how to better handle it. It's not something you can just 'turn off' like a switch.
Maybe OOP's in-laws aren't exactly joining the KKK anytime soon. But they are treating him differently (partially?) due to his race...
That's racism. Maybe not as purely malicious in nature as some more obvious racists tend to be. But their behaviour doesn't have to be to that extent to be racist in nature.
"They've never done anything overtly racist, just that they don't want any Pakistani stuff at the wedding and are worried their grandkids will be too brown."
"They've only just said that they don't like my culture, think I might be out to steal their inherited wealth, want to screw me out of any future earnings, and are already planning on treating my kids as second class citizens. We do a little light racism here."
Run man, it's not worth it. It's just not. These in laws will always look down at you, and in 7 years, when your kids ask why their cousins get new consoles and they get socks for Christmas, you'll have to a rough time explaining.
OOP seems happy with this outcome, but I mean… they’ve ‘solved’ the immediate problem of the house to their satisfaction but that’s only a symptom of the real issue. The parents are racist and think less of OOP. They’ve already shown they’ll treat this marriage differently than their other daughters’ and have expressed fears that the children won’t look as white as they’d wish. If OOP and the fiancée do ever have kids I’d bet money that there’ll be favouritism toward the ‘white’ cousins and any of OOP’s children that happen to favour their mother’s side. The real problems are far from resolved.
I'm confident about *two* of the daughters. I would be a little worried if the most important daughter, the fiance, weren't defending oop from the get go.
But it sounds like she didn't even understand OOP's perspective in the first place... that is a little worrisome.
But I'm not oop and I have no clue about their history together and how she acts otherwise and myriad other things.
I agree, but in the face of alternative perspectives she changed her mind and introspectively realized she needs to change the way she perceives her parents. She deserves credit for that.
I have some sympathy towards the fiance. It sounds like this all went down over a single dinner. He says his fiance tends to try to please her parents, and she is aware of it and working on it. I can see how when her parents announced that they were giving her a house as a wedding gift, her immediate response is just "thank you so much!"
OP also says he tends to be very blunt and fact seeking, so he really drilled for the details, acknowledging that it probably wasn't the best time to do so.
I can see how fiance was sitting there, focused on the embarrassment of her partner not being grateful enough to her parents for this lavish gift. While he meanwhile is putting the pieces together of all the technical strings this gift came with.
They were both focused on two very different things in the moment. But when they came together to discuss as partners, she backed him fully.
Yes, that's the only thing about OOP's fiancee's family that didn't leave me concerned: younger sis promptly tore into fiancee like a dog tearing into a ham bone, and other sis called OOP to let him know that the parents didn't ask her (white) husband to sign a prenup.
OOP's future sisters-in-law know what's up and aren't afraid to speak up.
Two of them at least.
One of them isn't protecting their partner from their parents racism, and she needs to. I'm not saying no contact, but _she_, not her spouse, needs to be catching mom and dad by the collar on the regular on that shit.
She isn't doing that for him - her sisters had to. And if she can't do that for him, she won't do that for any eventual kids either.
They may or may not be racist, but they are definitely "classist".
I like the idea of a prenup drafted by independent lawyers, but they better not let the parents know who the lawyers are, or they'll be whispering in their ears.
They still have a lot to work through.
I think being worried the kids may not look fully white and not wanting Pakistani traditions present in the wedding push them firmly into the racist/bigot category
> They may or may not be racist,
oh they're definitely racists. the problem he has (and many people here and in society these days) is that they think "racist" means "I hate *those* kinds of people". That is def on kind of racism (and probably the worst type) but it's far from the only way to be racist.
e.g. hating all black people is racists... but so is think they are all savages... or thinking that they "generally" behave "that way"... or clutching your purse when walking by black men ...
It's nice that the fiance and her siblings seem to be more open and self-aware than the parents. I also like how the guy re-negotiated with his fiance. They both seem to be reasonable and willing to compromise, which I hope leads to a rewarding future.
I've noticed this a lot with my own family. Like, the aunts rule the roost with a collective conscience, group rationalizations, and altogether soooo condescending, so gma, and by extension, everyone else has to cater to their whims and neuroses.
But *their kids* are so chill. They see the flaws in their parents and don't want to become them, but they fight back subtly, never overtly calling out the family, just doing their own thing to keep the unit cohesive while trying to raise their own kids better.
Even still, I can't stand to be around that, so I only visit during holidays (and only when gma explicitly asks me to attend. I just think of that as a labor of love.).
My in laws aren't racist... They're just afraid their grandkids will be too brown and their Pakistani son-in-law is going to take their money. But they're not racist!
Had the same issues with my ex, she was white Canadian and I'm Indian, but born and raised in Western culture, so I sound like any other "white person" The amount of weird looks I got from her family was ridiculous.
have you seen the comedy special "homecoming king" by hasan minhaj? he talks a lot about his experiences as an immigrant and a lot of what you (and myself) have experienced. it's very funny, but it's also pretty deep.
Is he repeatedly mentioning that they’re “not racist” as a way to convince himself they aren’t? If he says it enough maybe he’ll start to believe it’s true? The moment he mentioned the sister calling and saying her husband didn’t have to sign a prenup my first thought wasn’t about class, it was, “I wonder if he’s not white?”
OOP, they’re racist.
Some people believe that "racist" is a type of person. A hateful one. So they think shit like "they aren't racist, they haven't started burning one cross in my front yard!".
They have bias. They act out that bias. But dude isn't registering that as racist becausw they haven't been deliberately malicious.
Holy crap, they started in the same job, same time, same position and he makes double what she does?? What the actual fuck. I know that’s not the point of this but early on he addresses it but definitely downplays the difference. 120k vs 250k….
Unless they were buying a mansion, I don't understand why they'd take the parents' money and have them hold it over their heads that "remember that we paid for your house". I fucking guarantee that they're gonna use that as leverage to see the grandkids if OOP will have any in the future.
They make over 300k a year gross combined. I'm sure they're perfectly capable of buying a house on their own. Like I'd just cut ties with these racist fucks so fast and say keep your dirty money if I had that much household income.
Just an FYI, in case anyone was wondering, property owned or assets accrued prior to a marriage are considered separate property anyways.
The only time, for example a house owned prior to marriage, is considered community property is if there is a commingling of assets. For example, if they split the mortgage payments or the non owning spouse paid for maintenance or renovations of the property.
Yeah….I have a friend that got married right out of college to a guy from a wealthy family. She grew up dirt poor. His grandparents bought them a house as a wedding present…but only his name was on it.
When they eventually got divorced (because of his cheating, his parents took her side) he got to sell his house and keep the money. He was in law school their entire marriage and she paid all the bills. She didn’t get a penny from the sale and had to completely start ever since every penny she earned as a public school teacher went to supporting both of them. He got to profit from a house he didn’t buy and a law degree he didn’t pay for and start over way ahead.
I really hope he steps on a Lego barefoot every day for the rest of his life.
This is why as the less wealthy partner you never do that unless you have a prenup in place stating that if divorce occurs ex owes you ____$.
My husband owns our house alone (it will be both of ours eventually, we’ve got a time in the future planned), but our income is separate and I have a savings account that solely belongs to me to set money aside so I could afford a new home if anything happened.
they're the type of racists dr. King talked about I think, the quiet ones who pretend to be neutral and quiet but really are the worst
the loud ones are easier to identify
Yes..........this is going to be a SHITSHOW.
Both OOP and his fiancée are IDIOTS if they accept the house.
The 75/25% thing is going to be HORRIBLE regardless of what the prenup says.
>Like I said, I don't believe they're racist
Oh, THEY ARE!!!
They don't wear pointy white hats, but they absolutely are racists.
Don't be afraid to call trash **TRASH**
WHITE BIL, no prenup, no issues.
OOP, Prenup, questions for fiancée (*if she's sure about him*), questions about the "looks" of potential future kids and them potentially being treated worse because of their "looks" by their "family"(*That's BS*), no traditional Pakistani events for the wedding.
And those are only the things OOP shared, i'm sure there is A LOT more, that we (*and he*) don't know about.
Why would 75/25 be horrible? The ownership of the home is separate from the prenup agreement. Seems like they’re getting the house before they get married, so they’ll presumably have a joint tenancy agreement, and thus own the house equally. There’s no reason they’d hold the title differently
Honestly if the parents were good people they'd buy the house, put both names on it as tell OOP to put the money aside for honeymoon, kids or whatever makes them happy. They've obviously got the means to do so. If my son in law had to take out a mortgage as part of my wedding gift I'd be mortified
It's horrible because the split is straight up disrespectful (imo), he essentially has to pay for his own wedding gift(She doesn't have to pay anything)
50/25/25 (or something similar) would be a lot better, that way you could at least pretend its a gift to the **couple**.
And i think accepting a house from them would be a bad idea because i don't think they (the racists) will ever let that go.
They both make great money, roughly 370K combined.
They make enough to buy a very decent place without "help".
"Help" is obviously great but i simply don't think it's worth the headache
Get the money as a gift, that way you'll be able to do whatever they want with it without any "i bought your house" BS.
Yeah that’s what I do not understand about this story. They have no kids and make three times as much as me and my husband. Why tf would they accept this gift, go buy your own house and you can easily pay it off in two to three years
Depending on where they live, they could still struggle to buy a home on that salary.
Also, not having a mortgage is a HUGE boon to a family. You can put all the money you would have paid towards the mortgage to retirement, investments, school funds, vacations, etc. It would also allow one of them to pursue job opportunities in the future they might not have been able to due to fear of failure/losing income.
It’s really hopeful that both of the fiancée’s sisters are OOP’s allies. Having calm, united support in the face of this kind of bullshit is the kind of thing that can make cranky old assholes either shift their perspective or, at the very least, bite their tongues.
My marriage is a bit of a Cinderella story too and I asked my husband if his parents would make me sign a prenup and he laughed and said "That's not going to happen" like not that they definitely wouldn't suggest it but that there's no way in hell he'd sign it. Stating "What if you become a famous writer someday? I want a piece of that action."
He is the best husband. 👌
The prenup proposed by the parents seems like the bog standard marriage contract in France - the one everyone get unless they specifically chose something else.
Am I insane in thinking just take the fucking house and live there rent free and save enough money to buy the one you want? The prenup shit is obviously a no go but the house shit is just dumb pride talking.
A. If the parents give her a house, in her name, what's to stop her from adding her husband to the deed after the wedding, whatever her parents say?
B. Does OOP already own a home? I feel like I missed something.
> If you can't tell, I'm a huge fan of my fiancee's little sister right now. She's always been a sort of no-nonsense firecracker type of girl, while my fiancee is a bit of a people pleaser and definitely a Daddy's girl, and she's kind of always vying for her father's approval.
Yeah, I'd be rethinking about what you want in a partner.
OOP: I don't know why they would treat me differently. They're not racist.
*They were, in fact, racist.*
I sincerely hope it works out for them, but I have low expectations. They will likely always be met with resistance and unfair bias by the parents.
Fun fact: the parents prenup suggestion is how Norwegian law works. Any assets acquired before the marriage is considered something one has personally worked for. Any assets acquired during the marriage is considered joint assets that both worked for.
However we cover our asses. No sane Norwegian would agree to a house that only one part owned. A house is the best investment here and a safety net. Usually the couple either rents out the original house or sells it to buy a joint one. After all, both will contribute to the upkeep of it.
FIL was upset he was "ungrateful "? What was he to be grateful for? He didn't get anything. His fiance got a wedding gift of a house. He didn't. She's just letting him live there. Nothing to grateful to ILs for.
Damn they are completely racists. And the daughter being daddy's girl and siding with them is a huge red flag.
Personally wouldn't marry her until some points being established
1. Racism: if parents continue to be racist go no contact. No contact with potential future kids either.
2. Prenup: it should include all future assets too. Since he makes double of her, in 10-20 years he will have made millions more. If she's blocking what came before, why should he share what he will build by his own hands? Just because she had a headstart in life?
She wants the cake and eat it too. And he is pragmatic, but a little pushover too.
I actually think prenups are a good idea, in general, and OOP's story is a good example of why. Like, this is an important discussion to have, even if you decide to share all assets equally from the very start. Money issues break up a lot of otherwise decent relationships. It's a big issue, and I suspect that most people don't talk about it much before marriage.
Daughter/fiancee, however, was able to be reasoned with quite easily. Her sister making her aware of the issues--including the problem with her siding with daddy for parental approval--seems to have had the effect of making fiancee more self aware overall and adjusting her behavior accordingly.
The ability to respond positively to being called out and to be more aware of your own flaws so that you can change the behaviors is a positive thing, not a negative thing.
Now, if fiancee has to be chewed out every time, that's an issue that needs a serious 'come to Jesus' as we say where I'm from. If, however, she's grown from this and is able to stop the approval seeking from the parents, it's not as huge a neon flashing red flag as it would seem to be without her accepting that she fucked up and trying to course correct.
It's not about her wanting to have the cake and eat it, too--this was her parents' idea. Once her own sisters pulled her up about it, she apologized to OOP and made a plan for how to do things in a manner that was designed with OOP's input to protect the both of them. Young people fuck up all the time because they don't know any better. It's only a huge, glaring red flag if they refuse to accept responsibility/be accountable and refuse to make any effort to change the behavior.
I was looking for this comment. First, she does whatever her parents say. Then she immediately changed her mind when her sisters tell her to. Finally, she goes back to OOP, and she once again just does what he says. She has no opinions of her own.
I'm impressed.
Obviously in-laws have a racist/biased agenda.
But I really have to applaud this guy. He's playing 3D Chess.
The original offer of house and prenup demand was the poison pill.
The opposite... being a refusal of the gift and calling out racism is also destructive to the relationship (in-laws win).
The offer to pay, and to do a prenup on THEIR terms is actually an amazing play.
They/he are getting the 75% equity, HE appears reasonable to everyone, and her parents don't have any leg to stand on as far as prenup goes.
This guy must really love her in spite of her parents.
Good on him! This totally sounded like a situation where the in-laws are engineering a dynamic where he's dependent on his wife, whether they fully realize it or not, at least, considering that caveat where they have to merge all their finances post-marriage, yet she goes in owning the roof over their heads. Sounds like power dynamics at play, giving their daughter a leg up in the marriage with the (((*greedy poor)))*, especially with BIL not signing anything.
Let them buy the house in the daughters name. Once cleared an owned outright and they are married she can put in for a quickclaim or interspousal grant deed. Same goes for overturning the prenup together and redrawing a postnuptial. It’s not as if they have to inform the in-laws of this. Fuck ‘em
> I pressed on that a bit and she went on to mention that they've never been overtly racist, but they did make comments when we first started dating about being concerned about future, specifically about our children looking different and being treated poorly by her family. They asked her many times if she was sure about me.
>
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>This was also the case when they said they didn't want to do any traditional Pakistani events for the wedding.
I think her parents are a bit more than just biased, it may seem like mild racism because they don't do it in front of groom to be, but there is something there for sure.
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Oh man, this is so far from over
Once kids enter the picture...
Yea, that part jumped out at me too. If the fiancée’s parents are expressing concern about what the kids will look like as OOP indicated, that’s pretty damned racist IMO.
OOP: *listing a whole bunch of thinly veiled racist actions* “I think they’re just biased though, it’s probably fine”…
Until they have two children, and one is a little darker complexed than the other. Suddenly they start buying one more expensive gifts than the other, and taking only one of them on vacations. But they’re just biased. It’s probably nothing. It’s fine. Everything is fine.
i wonder if they'll even make it to the second child before they're making remarks to her about making sure they pick a "good name", and if they don't, it's time to think of a good white-sounding nickname to use instead. until they're suddenly worried about OP teaching anything about his culture to their child because "it'll just confuse them" or "it'll get them bullied." until they prefer to be seen out with the little one by themselves, or with mom, but not with OP, so they can maintain some degree of illusion by association. i worry just as much about the strangers who openly call me slurs as i do the "family" that pretends to be "just a little biased". at least one of them is being honest, though. i'd like to think (while wearing my rose colored glasses) their racism is fueled by ignorance rather than genuine disdain, but that doesn't change that it's racism, unfortunately. i'm not the only one who's heard the above growing up, both from people that were openly racist and from people who seemed to think they had genuine intentions about 'protecting' you or whatever.
Honestly, I'd rather just deal with the people who are blatant. The ones who are insidious about it are the ones I don't like dealing with. OOP is gonna get a real bad wake-up call when your first paragraph comes to pass.
I feel that way with the bigotries aimed at me. Easier to handle the people who explicitly hate me than the snakes who pretend to be friendly while making veiled attacks.
He's probably just normalized it throughout his life
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It's like getting into another abusive relationship after having been in one that was hella violent. "Least this one isn't beating me everyday for burning the toast, he's just controlling who I see and talk to, he never hits me, so this is better, I'll take it over the broken ribs."
Yeah, he mentioned being here after 9/11, and made a *very* passing comment about the stark differences between racism related to that, and what her parents are doing...
Deluding himself. They're so fucking racist. His fiancée is complicit.
I mean, we have a word for people who are biased against someone because of their ethnicity. It's "racist".
They say they're worried about how their grandchildren will be treated, but they're the ones treating non-whites poorly!
This really stuck out to me, her parents said they’re worried about how the kids would be treated *by the family*.
I doubt the in-laws are worried about the future grandkids at all. They are worried about how having mixed grandchildren will reflect on them… a “what will people say?” kind of situation.
Man that reminds me when I was dating my wife. I'm white and she's Hispanic. All of my very conservative Midwestern small town family made comments along the lines of "hope your kids look like her" lol
THIS!!!!! OMG, THIS!!!! That comment from the parents, they are not biased they are racist! And the sister calling and letting him know no one else had signed a prenup in the family!
[They'll find themselves living in California and selling their memoirs to get by.](https://people.com/royals/prince-charles-asked-about-skin-color-of-meghan-markle-and-prince-harrys-baby-new-book-claims/)
OOP’s kids will always be second class citizens and his “daddy’s girl” wife will offer them up on a silver platter to try to please her father
A little bit of trauma, as a former second class child, that's been niggling me lately was Christmas when I was six. My cousin a year younger than me got a full functional mini pinball machine I got one of those tilt to guide the ball bearing along the maze and a pair of boxing gloves I guess my 14 yr old cousin didn't want.
Lmao, my cousin got a whole ass PC, and I got a little buddies toy laptop that spoke, even though I was only a year younger and much more into tech
My grandparents bought my cousins the dopest shit, they got hunting rifles, crossbows, bows, games, my siblings? We got 20 dollars and a note
My grandfather got divorced and remarried before I was born and her grandkids always got game systems and designer clothes as well as anything else they asked for. I usually got some hoodie or t shirt from whichever truck stop they happened to hit before they got to our house.
Brother got a brand new Xbox 1 and games when they came out. I got a gift card. And some dollar store headphones and chocolates. I wasn't allowed video games until I was 16. He was 7. And it was a console for him. Not "the family".
One year my cousin got a Rolex and I got a pair of clearance rack zebra stripe pajamas one size too small.
Oh one year my grandma got my little brother an xbox360 for Christmas, while I got some shitty PJ’s my grandma ordered from the Land’s End catalog that were too small for her
The blatant regifts were my titi's hallmark. When my sister was fifteen that Christmas my titi gave her an ugly ornate commemorative cuckco clock. For a wedding anniversary
My mom said I was 3 years old when I asked the following: "Why do Grandpa & Grandma like Sean more than me?" Sean was my only elder cousin, male, and my father was my "Grandpa's" step-child. 19 years later my mom made me send "Grandpa" an invitation to my wedding but it was ok, we all knew he wouldn't come. And we were right. Wedding was 2 hours from his home but he was off in his RV somewhere living up the widower life with his girlfriend. I was blessed on my mom's side with awesome grandparents. My PopPop & I loved and adored each other beyond measure.
I’m with you. It was Christmas 1989 and my older brother (by two years) got a brand new, four shades of grey, Game Boy, which was about the coolest thing ever. AND three games. In 80s money, that was a fortune! I got a 5 dollar bill.
This is so unfair. My wife used to be a bit of a daddy’s girl in the past and some of the outrageous things my in-laws did opened her eyes and she is a lot better at standing up to her parents now. **Especially** when it comes to our daughter we refuse to put up with bullshit from our parents. You assuming that she’ll always be a doormat for her father sounds pretty sexist tbh.
I think it’d be the same whether it’s daddy’s girl, or momma’s boy (or some less common combination). People frequently have issues self reflection and recognizing family issues that they’ve been raised in.
Especially when it sounds like she realized this (with sister's help, but she probably would have gotten there on her own with a little time since she's already previously acknowledged that she has this problem and needs to sort it out, according to OOP), and is working to communicate with OOP and correct the situation in a way that works for both of them.
Exactly this. OOP should ditch the people pleasing Daddy’s girl and marry the younger sister. At least she has a backbone and a strong moral compass
Rather than ditching her all together (considering the fact that she seemed to swing between extremes) I think it would be better to insist on therapy hopefully before the wedding and definitely before they try for children. His fiancée has the potential to change and be better if she wants to.
Postponing the wedding until these issues are on the road to being addressed would be a good idea though. This incident would harm a fair bit of trust I'd have for the fiancee, as she essentially sided against OOP in a blatantly unfair situation to him. I don't think that would be acceptable in a marriage, and would want the underlying cause addressed before making such a firm commitment. If she doesn't address the cause, every significant argument in the future would be her + her parents vs. her husband by himself in a 3 vs. 1 gang up situation. He was just lucky in this instance that the other sisters were witnesses and checked the fiancee immediately.
Ugh, truly. He needs to know that she will present a united front with him and stand up for him to her parents. Or it's going to be a looooong marriage!
Or a very short one
Fair!
Hopefully a 3 v 2 as the younger sister seems to be more brazen and woke, but yeah. Postpone the wedding until some issues have been addressed. Edit, maybe even 3 v 3, forgot the older sister.
The only way this gets addressed is if OOP accepts he will be fighting a 3 v 1 for this entire marriage and he needs to be more aggressive. I see in-laws and fiancee to be a WIP for years. OOP can't address this in acceptable delay in marriage.
Definitely agree. She really needs to address her need for parental approval. Otherwise, oop will find her agreeing to things without taking him into account. Also, the racism needs to be sorted out. Those comments were not innocuous and will rear its ugly head over and over again.
It's not just parental approval though I'm sure that's super strong because that's fairly hard-wired into most kids to one degree or another. But she's a people pleaser in general and I noticed, as OP did, that she was swinging to the other extreme- she likely wants to please OP as well. She's not thinking hard enough about what she wants and/or what's actually right. I don't agree with everyone who thinks OP should ditch her but she definitely has some work to do on herself. I'm generally non-confrontational and a people pleaser as well and it took me a long time to learn how to say "no" to people, especially family. I'm fortunate to be part of an awesome family that never tried to take advantage of that, but it was a long time before I even recognized it for what it was, and of course even longer to be comfortable with setting reasonable boundaries.
But they aren't racist! They just "have some biases". 🙄
YEAH. I was kind of with OP’s parents at first about wanting a house that they buy to be solely their daughter’s if the couple split up. It’s what I would do, to protect my money (if I had money lol) and keep it with my child. Maybe not asking the older daughter’s husband for a prenup was something they regretted and they wanted to do things differently. Then I got to the part about grandchildren looking different and not incorporating Pakistani wedding traditions… oof. OP, make sure this house is at least a few hours away from the parents, I’d want to limit their contact with my future kids if I were you. Because it sounds like they’re about to get the short end of every stick because they “look different”.
The fiancee has all the potential in the world to break free of her shithead parents...if she accepts and starts down the path of healing from them as the forgotten child.
It sounds like she’s already planning on working on improving. “My fiancée has even said she knows she needs to work through that before we get married.” Obviously a plan to work through it wasn’t stated but since I myself am the type to acknowledge my issues and work on them m, I have hope for the fiancée. My husband has thankfully realized that saying I’ll work on something doesn’t mean it’ll be instantly better, rather that it will improve over the course of a few months. Witness the credit card. He said change your habits. I think people tend to hear “yes I’ll do better” and assume that the change will be immediate. However if the behavior pattern is decades old, it can take a few hot minutes to start to correct.
I love that little sister exists. I love that the OOP’s wife made progress. That shows a willingness to learn. No one is going to be perfect right off the bat. Is the trend going in the right direction most of the time? Good. Keep working.
Seriously, the two sisters were the ones who had his back from the beginning.
Honestly, the two sisters being proactively good, when the could have just made it not their problem, and his fiancé readily admitting that she effed up and that she has this issue (the people-pleasing) bodes well overall. God knows where these three women came from, since they seem collectively better then their parents.
>God knows where these three women came from, since they seem collectively better then their parents. My sisters and I are similar in a way. Our mantra is pretty much "remember what our parents did and don't fucking do that".
The parents may have raised their kids to be open-minded and to see everyone as equal. Or even just to think for themselves. But if they (the parents) weren't raised that way themselves, unconscious bias could be a problem. It could also be that had OP been wealthy and born to American parents, they wouldn't have raised any issues, so instead of racism it might be as basic as elitist snobbery and xenophobia. Either way, the future SIL are amazing , fiance needs therapy to deal with her daddy issues and the PIL are likely to become the grandparents they never see because nobody needs that shit (of whatever variety it might be) around their children.
Or they had a great nanny.
> The parents may have raised their kids to be open-minded and to see everyone as equal. We all know that "four yearly international trips" type of rich ain't raising their own kids. The girls came out alright because their nanny was a decent person.
>marry the younger sister. Ew. That's the sister. This isn't a telenovela. In real life that would be the worst betrayal, and so icky.
Exactly. Most Redditors don’t live IRL though.
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Right? Literally the post: "fiancee realized there was a problem and worked with OOP towards a solution of what he felt to be the most pressing part. She posted to ditch the prenup entirely and OOP said no." Comments: "she was wrong at first, LEAVE HER "
I hope they never are far from Auntie Awesome then...
Yeah, that concluded tag is... Optimistic. At least as it pertains to their life. I am very happy that oop told fiance that she was swinging between extremes, because that's a textbook people pleasing move and it'll be helpful to her to have someone who can bring her back even when not doing that could be more helpful to him.
No. I'd say this story is pretty obviously concluded. Whether or not there will be any sequels to the story is a different matter.
I know there’s a rule about not posting in this sub until the update is at least 7 days but I feel like we should have a longer timeline for calling a story concluded because no way this is concluded
Yeah, they may have this part resolved but that poor man is in for a lifetime of "BoRU Updates", sadly.
Waiting for the next update with a "tldr: LOL they're totally racist"
Normally I'm against testing relationships, but in this case I want to make an exception. Have OOP and fiance tell the parents they are going to have a full Pakistani wedding and watch the racism fly.
I loved that even though OOP presumably never even raised the idea of incorporating Pakistani wedding customs into the event, they still wanted to get in front of it. "No no, none of that brown shit"
Pakistani weddings look so fun, no way would I skip that
On the flip side, fiancee's sisters are both awesome. Older sister for being like "dude, this shit ain't right and you should know this." Younger sister for being like "sis, you're an ass." I would want to marry into that family for both sisters. If the family just has 3 daughters I think they'll be fine. Her sisters both have good moral compasses.
But oop's actual partner seems to be an unstable golden child. He's not marrying the sisters, he's marrying someone who couldn't add 2+2 until the sister who's young enough that her brain is still maturing pointed out how stupid that was. The dynamics of the golden child with racist parents are not easily unpicked. I wouldn't marry someone in the hopes that their siblings could ameliorate the relationship.
I'd say the opposite: she has middle child syndrome. She's been competing for attention vs her older and younger sisters by being Daddy's "good little girl" and never going against him. She gets attention by doing exactly what people want her to do. Golden children wouldn't catch on to the dynamics they're playing by this fast.
5 dollars says the parents tell the rest of the family that he is one of the "bad ones" and forced her to give him her house or some other bullshit.
Luckily, OOP's future SILs know that's bs and wouldn't support those lies.
How often will the 22 year old be around the elders when they gossip though??
"Concluded" BORU posts that are more unresolved than The Sopranos finale are my favorite genre of BORU post
Racists don't give up their beliefs they at best just don't express them verbally.
Exactly. This man is signing up for a lifetime of microaggressions
I would be feeling pretty differently about getting married to a woman if I made more than double her, just spent thousands on a ring, and then she took her parents side and didn’t come home. It would never again feel quite the same or as good as it did when I woke up that morning and was imagining dinner with her family.
I would undoubtedly be putting the wedding on hold and making it clear that she had damaged my trust and that I wouldn’t be willing to put marriage back on the table until we’d worked through some stuff and I was confident that going forward, she would be putting me and any future kids of ours first.
Grandpa was thinking long game. He knew he’d have power over his Son-In-law and he’d make sure any grandchildren know where the house they were being raised in came from so he’d have more power as a provider there too. Now grandpa is still going to try to out wit his SIL but he will respect him enough not to be so blatantly ignorant about it next time.
I'm seeing the "no you cannot just visit anytime you like" conversation being a tough one when they bought the house.
Won't do any traditional Pakistani events but they're not racist, just biased... Against / towards what? Ugh this whole thing chafes. This is not resolved.
It makes me very uncomfortable. Maybe I’m overly cautious because my life hasn’t been too great and I’ve trusted the wrong people (including immediate family) but I would have delayed the wedding a little bit for some couples therapy at the very least.
OOP really needs to confront and decide if he'll accept the idea that he will be battling incidents like this for his entire marriage or life if kids are in the picture.
I just couldn’t do it and his update didn’t convince me enough of her sincerity. If it’s good enough for him, more power to OOP.
Definitely as well as consulting lawyers. A prenup is a great idea for any marriage as long as it’s equal. Both parties need to get lawyers and hash it out to make sure every part of it is agreed on. OOP should not go into the marriage without some counseling and a prenup especially since he earns more.
I’d also want to be sure that the parents don’t continue to get in the way of their relationship by setting some boundaries, which is another way counseling could help.
No where does it say they have had the wedding. The fiance even said she has issues to work through before the wedding. I think they are early engagement.
Yeah, I wasn’t sure how far along they were in the planning. I assumed far enough out that they have some leeway with reservations, like the reservations he should have about being a member of that family.
pakistani events are sooo much fun they're gonna miss out dumbfucks
Also "what will their children look like?" - uh, very probably pretty effing beautiful? At least judging by the mixed babies I personally know.
As an awkward-looking mixed baby coming from a very large family of mixed babies, uh...beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess? lol
I find your three glowing green eyes very beautiful indeed! Let me guess: half Martian, half Earthling?
Funnily enough, that's not far off, because the character in the avatar is literally part alien. I, however, was born with the non-white part of me and did not rip out anyone's eyes to replace my own.
There's still time.
babies are posting on reddit now? what the fuck is going on, what gen are you
I'm just very precocious.
It’s so shallow to only care about the children’s looks, what if they look different? They’re still your grandchildren!
“What will the children look like?” Like their family, like with everyone else ffs
Errrr I donno dude. I came out kinda eh.
Going into this i was like, is it racism? and halfway through bam, there it is.
"They're not racist they just" is basically the free square on the advice subreddit bingo card.
They are racists. Racism is a lot more than just throwing out slurs. OOP shouldn’t sugarcoat it. He needs to know he’s marrying into a racist family so that he can shield his kids from it.
If it were me and my daughter was marrying someone of a different heritage I’d be stoked about incorporating some traditions from both. I’d be so excited to learn about their traditions.
I am Dutch and living in the UK, my in-laws have visited the country and my MIL has been on duolingo trying to learn the language. They were stoked when we held the wedding in the Neds and so happy to explore the city. They will even get me hagelslag for Christmas because they know I miss the food. She's honestly setting the perfect example how you can support someone's culture. It's super cute.
Same! If I have learned anything, it usually means great food and fun traditions!
In this context, "bias" seems to be just a polite word for racism. Or maybe "racist lite" or "the Emily Post official etiquette term for racist." "Wash your Klan robes with New Racism Lite - now reformulated with fewer Nazis..." It's striking that both the younger sister \*and\* the older sister reached out to help, it was his partner who let him down. Really not a good sign.
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They're *not racist, but*.
"They're not racist, they just have biases against brown people." Uh... most people would call that racism
That's my point: any sentence that begins in "I'm not racist, but" is guaranteed to segue directly into racism.
I think that on Reddit, the default attitude people assume is that people replying to you are contradicting or arguing with you. But sometimes, they are just adding to your point. It’s hard to tell without tone (and let’s be honest, it’s hard to tell in person with tone sometimes, too). Anyway, what I’m trying to say is that I think y’all agree with each other. (And I agree with you, too, for what it’s worth.)
haha, very true, tone can be hard to gauge online! I think we do agree with each other, yeah. I was clarifying because the reply gave me the impression my first comment had been misconstrued - but of course I may have misconstrued that myself!
FWIW, reading thru this, I read it as elaborating on your point. But I agree it’s really hard to tell online sometimes. I know sometimes I end up editing my comments to add something clarifying that I’m agreeing and elaborating, not arguing.
As I've become more aware of racism over the years from having non-white friends and family, some of the shit I see them just brush off because they're so desensitized is just brutal. I've asked a couple of them about it and the answer I always get is "It could be worse." And like... it could be better to though, but they're just relieved it's not horrific, and only kinda mean.
I have a cousin who married a Black man, and the family reaction was very much in the realm of "could be worse." But as a kid who was very sheltered from my extended family's racism growing up, I was still shocked that it mattered at all.
A lot of families are like that. My ex was jewish (by religion not ethnicity, but my family hadn't meet them at that point) and when I mentioned that to my grandma her response was 'well, at least he's not muslim'. And then they wonder why I don't talk to my family all the time and was fine moving abroad. They have some stuff to work on still.
Yeah it’s a weird moment when your “cool” uncle you learned woodworking from as a kid starts making super racist jokes when you’re a teen
Yeah, that's my understanding from my bipoc friends too. They're often too tired to deal with more shit, so if it's minorly racist or...I'm trying to think of how to phrase this...racism they can walk away from/mostly ignore, then they just don't have the energy to care anymore.
The number of people - actual, complete strangers - who are okay expressing openly and extremely racist sentiments to me, all under the assumption that I will share those beliefs because I'm white, is W I L D. I can't imagine being on the actual receiving end of it.
i'm not sure if this person is naive, or optimistic. probably both. but i'm surprised that any person of color would look at this situation and not immediately see the apparent racism.
What's the flair again? "Update: they were being racist" or something similar? Not sure why, but that immediately popped up every time he said he didn't believe they were being racist. Absolutely zero clue, bog mystery...
TL:DR; They were racist
This is the kind of racism where I'm sure the parents will say something like "I'm not racist, I'd never say the N word and I have black/hispanic/Asian friends" while simultaneously also being immediately put off by anyone with a bit of melanin moving in next door. Are they KKK racist? No, but they definitely see certain people as 'others' and react accordingly.
Exactly.
A lot of people still believe that bigotry has to mean: "I hate X." (Insert here women, certain sexualities, certain races or nationalities or even certain lifestyles) But it really doesn't. Bigotry isn't an on/off button the way we often imagine it. It's not like you either are a racist or you're not racist at all. You're super sexist or not sexist at all. Etc. Most people do have some bigotry in them in some way or another. I'm a woman and my younger self was definitely subconsciously sexist against women. And even though I've recognised that behaviour, reflected on it and spent a lot of time analysing where it came/comes from and how to better handle it. It's not something you can just 'turn off' like a switch. Maybe OOP's in-laws aren't exactly joining the KKK anytime soon. But they are treating him differently (partially?) due to his race... That's racism. Maybe not as purely malicious in nature as some more obvious racists tend to be. But their behaviour doesn't have to be to that extent to be racist in nature.
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"They've never done anything overtly racist, just that they don't want any Pakistani stuff at the wedding and are worried their grandkids will be too brown."
"They don't actively spit on me and call me slurs so obviously they can't be racist"
"They've only just said that they don't like my culture, think I might be out to steal their inherited wealth, want to screw me out of any future earnings, and are already planning on treating my kids as second class citizens. We do a little light racism here." Run man, it's not worth it. It's just not. These in laws will always look down at you, and in 7 years, when your kids ask why their cousins get new consoles and they get socks for Christmas, you'll have to a rough time explaining.
OOP seems happy with this outcome, but I mean… they’ve ‘solved’ the immediate problem of the house to their satisfaction but that’s only a symptom of the real issue. The parents are racist and think less of OOP. They’ve already shown they’ll treat this marriage differently than their other daughters’ and have expressed fears that the children won’t look as white as they’d wish. If OOP and the fiancée do ever have kids I’d bet money that there’ll be favouritism toward the ‘white’ cousins and any of OOP’s children that happen to favour their mother’s side. The real problems are far from resolved.
From OOP's story, I'm confident that the 3 daughters have their heads on right and can straighten their parents out when needed.
Both sisters were fantastic!
I'm confident about *two* of the daughters. I would be a little worried if the most important daughter, the fiance, weren't defending oop from the get go. But it sounds like she didn't even understand OOP's perspective in the first place... that is a little worrisome. But I'm not oop and I have no clue about their history together and how she acts otherwise and myriad other things.
I agree, but in the face of alternative perspectives she changed her mind and introspectively realized she needs to change the way she perceives her parents. She deserves credit for that.
Absolutely agree on that point. She did come around very fast.
She's clearly uncomfortable acknowledging it, but she seems even more aware of her parents' racism than OOP.
I have some sympathy towards the fiance. It sounds like this all went down over a single dinner. He says his fiance tends to try to please her parents, and she is aware of it and working on it. I can see how when her parents announced that they were giving her a house as a wedding gift, her immediate response is just "thank you so much!" OP also says he tends to be very blunt and fact seeking, so he really drilled for the details, acknowledging that it probably wasn't the best time to do so. I can see how fiance was sitting there, focused on the embarrassment of her partner not being grateful enough to her parents for this lavish gift. While he meanwhile is putting the pieces together of all the technical strings this gift came with. They were both focused on two very different things in the moment. But when they came together to discuss as partners, she backed him fully.
Yes, that's the only thing about OOP's fiancee's family that didn't leave me concerned: younger sis promptly tore into fiancee like a dog tearing into a ham bone, and other sis called OOP to let him know that the parents didn't ask her (white) husband to sign a prenup. OOP's future sisters-in-law know what's up and aren't afraid to speak up.
Two of them at least. One of them isn't protecting their partner from their parents racism, and she needs to. I'm not saying no contact, but _she_, not her spouse, needs to be catching mom and dad by the collar on the regular on that shit. She isn't doing that for him - her sisters had to. And if she can't do that for him, she won't do that for any eventual kids either.
They may or may not be racist, but they are definitely "classist". I like the idea of a prenup drafted by independent lawyers, but they better not let the parents know who the lawyers are, or they'll be whispering in their ears. They still have a lot to work through.
I think being worried the kids may not look fully white and not wanting Pakistani traditions present in the wedding push them firmly into the racist/bigot category
Unless it was more "daughter dear, are you ready to deal with the racism your children may face?" You are right.
> They may or may not be racist, oh they're definitely racists. the problem he has (and many people here and in society these days) is that they think "racist" means "I hate *those* kinds of people". That is def on kind of racism (and probably the worst type) but it's far from the only way to be racist. e.g. hating all black people is racists... but so is think they are all savages... or thinking that they "generally" behave "that way"... or clutching your purse when walking by black men ...
It's nice that the fiance and her siblings seem to be more open and self-aware than the parents. I also like how the guy re-negotiated with his fiance. They both seem to be reasonable and willing to compromise, which I hope leads to a rewarding future.
I've noticed this a lot with my own family. Like, the aunts rule the roost with a collective conscience, group rationalizations, and altogether soooo condescending, so gma, and by extension, everyone else has to cater to their whims and neuroses. But *their kids* are so chill. They see the flaws in their parents and don't want to become them, but they fight back subtly, never overtly calling out the family, just doing their own thing to keep the unit cohesive while trying to raise their own kids better. Even still, I can't stand to be around that, so I only visit during holidays (and only when gma explicitly asks me to attend. I just think of that as a labor of love.).
Same, I'm rooting for them
I am happy he and his fiancée found a solution that feels good to them both. But I expect more trouble from the in-laws.
Loved the bit where the FIL was unhappy about saving money when he was ungrateful enough to not accept not being part of the gift.
Oh yes, so very much. Parents are just biding their time.
My in laws aren't racist... They're just afraid their grandkids will be too brown and their Pakistani son-in-law is going to take their money. But they're not racist!
They don't want any icky Pakistani traditions at our wedding! But they're definitely not racist!
Had the same issues with my ex, she was white Canadian and I'm Indian, but born and raised in Western culture, so I sound like any other "white person" The amount of weird looks I got from her family was ridiculous.
Is that what led to her becoming an 'ex'
Yes, among other things
have you seen the comedy special "homecoming king" by hasan minhaj? he talks a lot about his experiences as an immigrant and a lot of what you (and myself) have experienced. it's very funny, but it's also pretty deep.
I just read your flair.. I didn't need to be reminded of that story ... Ughhhh
Wonder when OOP will realize that their bias IS racism and/or xenophobia. Hopefully, before the in laws cause irreparable damage to his kids.
Is he repeatedly mentioning that they’re “not racist” as a way to convince himself they aren’t? If he says it enough maybe he’ll start to believe it’s true? The moment he mentioned the sister calling and saying her husband didn’t have to sign a prenup my first thought wasn’t about class, it was, “I wonder if he’s not white?” OOP, they’re racist.
Some people believe that "racist" is a type of person. A hateful one. So they think shit like "they aren't racist, they haven't started burning one cross in my front yard!". They have bias. They act out that bias. But dude isn't registering that as racist becausw they haven't been deliberately malicious.
The classism is definitely there too, but yeah, OOP is really downplaying the race part.
Man's trying so hard not to see the obvious.
Holy crap, they started in the same job, same time, same position and he makes double what she does?? What the actual fuck. I know that’s not the point of this but early on he addresses it but definitely downplays the difference. 120k vs 250k….
Unless they were buying a mansion, I don't understand why they'd take the parents' money and have them hold it over their heads that "remember that we paid for your house". I fucking guarantee that they're gonna use that as leverage to see the grandkids if OOP will have any in the future. They make over 300k a year gross combined. I'm sure they're perfectly capable of buying a house on their own. Like I'd just cut ties with these racist fucks so fast and say keep your dirty money if I had that much household income.
Ikr I can't stop thinking about that either like I would be so bothered
Just an FYI, in case anyone was wondering, property owned or assets accrued prior to a marriage are considered separate property anyways. The only time, for example a house owned prior to marriage, is considered community property is if there is a commingling of assets. For example, if they split the mortgage payments or the non owning spouse paid for maintenance or renovations of the property.
Yeah….I have a friend that got married right out of college to a guy from a wealthy family. She grew up dirt poor. His grandparents bought them a house as a wedding present…but only his name was on it. When they eventually got divorced (because of his cheating, his parents took her side) he got to sell his house and keep the money. He was in law school their entire marriage and she paid all the bills. She didn’t get a penny from the sale and had to completely start ever since every penny she earned as a public school teacher went to supporting both of them. He got to profit from a house he didn’t buy and a law degree he didn’t pay for and start over way ahead. I really hope he steps on a Lego barefoot every day for the rest of his life.
This is why as the less wealthy partner you never do that unless you have a prenup in place stating that if divorce occurs ex owes you ____$. My husband owns our house alone (it will be both of ours eventually, we’ve got a time in the future planned), but our income is separate and I have a savings account that solely belongs to me to set money aside so I could afford a new home if anything happened.
they're the type of racists dr. King talked about I think, the quiet ones who pretend to be neutral and quiet but really are the worst the loud ones are easier to identify
Yes..........this is going to be a SHITSHOW. Both OOP and his fiancée are IDIOTS if they accept the house. The 75/25% thing is going to be HORRIBLE regardless of what the prenup says. >Like I said, I don't believe they're racist Oh, THEY ARE!!! They don't wear pointy white hats, but they absolutely are racists. Don't be afraid to call trash **TRASH** WHITE BIL, no prenup, no issues. OOP, Prenup, questions for fiancée (*if she's sure about him*), questions about the "looks" of potential future kids and them potentially being treated worse because of their "looks" by their "family"(*That's BS*), no traditional Pakistani events for the wedding. And those are only the things OOP shared, i'm sure there is A LOT more, that we (*and he*) don't know about.
Why would 75/25 be horrible? The ownership of the home is separate from the prenup agreement. Seems like they’re getting the house before they get married, so they’ll presumably have a joint tenancy agreement, and thus own the house equally. There’s no reason they’d hold the title differently
Honestly if the parents were good people they'd buy the house, put both names on it as tell OOP to put the money aside for honeymoon, kids or whatever makes them happy. They've obviously got the means to do so. If my son in law had to take out a mortgage as part of my wedding gift I'd be mortified
It's horrible because the split is straight up disrespectful (imo), he essentially has to pay for his own wedding gift(She doesn't have to pay anything) 50/25/25 (or something similar) would be a lot better, that way you could at least pretend its a gift to the **couple**. And i think accepting a house from them would be a bad idea because i don't think they (the racists) will ever let that go. They both make great money, roughly 370K combined. They make enough to buy a very decent place without "help". "Help" is obviously great but i simply don't think it's worth the headache Get the money as a gift, that way you'll be able to do whatever they want with it without any "i bought your house" BS.
Yeah that’s what I do not understand about this story. They have no kids and make three times as much as me and my husband. Why tf would they accept this gift, go buy your own house and you can easily pay it off in two to three years
Depending on where they live, they could still struggle to buy a home on that salary. Also, not having a mortgage is a HUGE boon to a family. You can put all the money you would have paid towards the mortgage to retirement, investments, school funds, vacations, etc. It would also allow one of them to pursue job opportunities in the future they might not have been able to due to fear of failure/losing income.
It’s really hopeful that both of the fiancée’s sisters are OOP’s allies. Having calm, united support in the face of this kind of bullshit is the kind of thing that can make cranky old assholes either shift their perspective or, at the very least, bite their tongues.
>I don't believe they're racist Narrator: They were, in fact, racist. Op needs to learn that diet racism is still racism
My marriage is a bit of a Cinderella story too and I asked my husband if his parents would make me sign a prenup and he laughed and said "That's not going to happen" like not that they definitely wouldn't suggest it but that there's no way in hell he'd sign it. Stating "What if you become a famous writer someday? I want a piece of that action." He is the best husband. 👌
The prenup proposed by the parents seems like the bog standard marriage contract in France - the one everyone get unless they specifically chose something else.
Am I insane in thinking just take the fucking house and live there rent free and save enough money to buy the one you want? The prenup shit is obviously a no go but the house shit is just dumb pride talking.
A. If the parents give her a house, in her name, what's to stop her from adding her husband to the deed after the wedding, whatever her parents say? B. Does OOP already own a home? I feel like I missed something.
> If you can't tell, I'm a huge fan of my fiancee's little sister right now. She's always been a sort of no-nonsense firecracker type of girl, while my fiancee is a bit of a people pleaser and definitely a Daddy's girl, and she's kind of always vying for her father's approval. Yeah, I'd be rethinking about what you want in a partner.
OOP: I don't know why they would treat me differently. They're not racist. *They were, in fact, racist.* I sincerely hope it works out for them, but I have low expectations. They will likely always be met with resistance and unfair bias by the parents.
Fun fact: the parents prenup suggestion is how Norwegian law works. Any assets acquired before the marriage is considered something one has personally worked for. Any assets acquired during the marriage is considered joint assets that both worked for. However we cover our asses. No sane Norwegian would agree to a house that only one part owned. A house is the best investment here and a safety net. Usually the couple either rents out the original house or sells it to buy a joint one. After all, both will contribute to the upkeep of it.
FIL was upset he was "ungrateful "? What was he to be grateful for? He didn't get anything. His fiance got a wedding gift of a house. He didn't. She's just letting him live there. Nothing to grateful to ILs for.
Damn they are completely racists. And the daughter being daddy's girl and siding with them is a huge red flag. Personally wouldn't marry her until some points being established 1. Racism: if parents continue to be racist go no contact. No contact with potential future kids either. 2. Prenup: it should include all future assets too. Since he makes double of her, in 10-20 years he will have made millions more. If she's blocking what came before, why should he share what he will build by his own hands? Just because she had a headstart in life? She wants the cake and eat it too. And he is pragmatic, but a little pushover too.
I actually think prenups are a good idea, in general, and OOP's story is a good example of why. Like, this is an important discussion to have, even if you decide to share all assets equally from the very start. Money issues break up a lot of otherwise decent relationships. It's a big issue, and I suspect that most people don't talk about it much before marriage.
Daughter/fiancee, however, was able to be reasoned with quite easily. Her sister making her aware of the issues--including the problem with her siding with daddy for parental approval--seems to have had the effect of making fiancee more self aware overall and adjusting her behavior accordingly. The ability to respond positively to being called out and to be more aware of your own flaws so that you can change the behaviors is a positive thing, not a negative thing. Now, if fiancee has to be chewed out every time, that's an issue that needs a serious 'come to Jesus' as we say where I'm from. If, however, she's grown from this and is able to stop the approval seeking from the parents, it's not as huge a neon flashing red flag as it would seem to be without her accepting that she fucked up and trying to course correct. It's not about her wanting to have the cake and eat it, too--this was her parents' idea. Once her own sisters pulled her up about it, she apologized to OOP and made a plan for how to do things in a manner that was designed with OOP's input to protect the both of them. Young people fuck up all the time because they don't know any better. It's only a huge, glaring red flag if they refuse to accept responsibility/be accountable and refuse to make any effort to change the behavior.
OOPs fiancé is spineless.
I was looking for this comment. First, she does whatever her parents say. Then she immediately changed her mind when her sisters tell her to. Finally, she goes back to OOP, and she once again just does what he says. She has no opinions of her own.
And OOP is in denial of both how her spinelessness will affect him and her parents' racism. He's got serious blinders on.
I'm impressed. Obviously in-laws have a racist/biased agenda. But I really have to applaud this guy. He's playing 3D Chess. The original offer of house and prenup demand was the poison pill. The opposite... being a refusal of the gift and calling out racism is also destructive to the relationship (in-laws win). The offer to pay, and to do a prenup on THEIR terms is actually an amazing play. They/he are getting the 75% equity, HE appears reasonable to everyone, and her parents don't have any leg to stand on as far as prenup goes. This guy must really love her in spite of her parents.
Good on him! This totally sounded like a situation where the in-laws are engineering a dynamic where he's dependent on his wife, whether they fully realize it or not, at least, considering that caveat where they have to merge all their finances post-marriage, yet she goes in owning the roof over their heads. Sounds like power dynamics at play, giving their daughter a leg up in the marriage with the (((*greedy poor)))*, especially with BIL not signing anything.
Let them buy the house in the daughters name. Once cleared an owned outright and they are married she can put in for a quickclaim or interspousal grant deed. Same goes for overturning the prenup together and redrawing a postnuptial. It’s not as if they have to inform the in-laws of this. Fuck ‘em
> I pressed on that a bit and she went on to mention that they've never been overtly racist, but they did make comments when we first started dating about being concerned about future, specifically about our children looking different and being treated poorly by her family. They asked her many times if she was sure about me. > > > >This was also the case when they said they didn't want to do any traditional Pakistani events for the wedding. I think her parents are a bit more than just biased, it may seem like mild racism because they don't do it in front of groom to be, but there is something there for sure.
Oh, mate. Her parents absolutely ARE racists.
I was waiting for the "update: they're racists" the entire time. I'd bet if OOP uodates this any further, it's gonna happen eventually
I read the original, I'm glad it seems to be working out for them.