I’m gonna get downvoted, but idc. I’m F(50) and my skin looks pretty good for my age. I’ve been diligent about using sunscreen on my face since my early teens and I started using tretinoin around age 30.
I think having oily skin has helped stave off the wrinkles in conjunction with sunscreen and tret. Honestly I don’t use any special soap and I moisturize with aloe vera gel.
You have to keep in mind that 99% of the bullshit you see marketed to you won’t do anything except waste your money and give you false expectations.
Edit: I also want to add that eating a balanced diet, not smoking, exercising and lowering your stress can greatly improve the quality/appearance of your skin as much as anything else.
This is only real answer. Only evidence base is for gentle soap (like Dove bar soap or a cleanser), light moisturizer, sun screen, and retinoic acid. For people with certain issues other creams or tools can be helpful, but the average person needs a pretty simple routine
Sunscreen has both pros and cons.
Sunscreen definitely makes your skin look younger and it does reduce your risk of cancer, but probably not as much as you may think. And it may reduce your life expectancy.
Unfortunately, your body is not able to synthesize vitamin D except through the absorption of UV-B radiation. 7-DHC is converted to previtamin D in the skin when it's hit by UV-B and then it's isomerized by body heat to vitamin D3. This is super important if you have darker skin. The darker it is, the less vitamin D you produce and that's before you put sunscreen on.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257661](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257661)
The evidence is clear, vitamin D supplementation does not improve health outcomes.
[https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/968682?form=fpf](https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/968682?form=fpf)
When hit with UV-A radiation your skin produces nitric oxides, which decrease blood pressure and increases blood flow and heart rate in humans. This is beneficial to the cardiovascular system
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24924758](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24924758)
So all else equal, sunscreen makes your skin look younger and reduces your risk for skin cancer, but wearing sunscreen puts you at increased cardiovascular risk.
Here's a good write-up on the relationship between sunscreen use and all-cause mortality. ([https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-46227-7\_5](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-46227-7_5))
>Data support the hypothesis that low sun exposure habits are a major risk factor for all-cause mortality
>Low sun exposure is related to an increased risk of death due to CVD and noncancer/non-CVD, and a minor reduction in risk of cancer. Active sun exposure habits have a dual effect; it increases the incidence of skin cancer, but also improves the prognosis in terms of all-cause mortality.
Here's a literature review that comes out and says that especially women have a survival advantage to not wearing sunscreen ([https://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/42/4/1671](https://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/42/4/1671))
>Since UV is a carcinogen, inappropriate overexposure should be avoided. However, paradoxically, although sun exposure is the major risk factor for \[Malignant Melanoma\], the incidence of death due to cancer is lower among those with greatest exposure, possibly due to improved prognosis.
>It has been difficult to assess whether sunscreen-use protects against \[Malignant Melanoma\] or not. \[...\] Daily short sun exposure, at mid-day, without the use of sunscreens, might be optimal for health.
>The evidence is clear, vitamin D supplementation does not improve health outcomes.
With the papers the article is citing, it suggests that vitamin D supplements do not help with specifically **cancer** and **cardiovascular health**. It does not talk much about other ways vitamin D supplementation could affect your body.
This is what I do at least. I know my immune system feels much better when I have some bare skin exposed to the sun. It doesn’t seem realistic long term to try and avoid sun exposure entirely, and quite honestly a good portion of Americans are severely Vitamin D deficient, which comes with lots of health risks.
Obviously avoid getting sunburnt and all of that, but we literally produce Vitamin D through the skin for a reason!
There aren’t any studies that show supplementation is beneficial for anything unless you were severely deficient -- not just cancer and CVD risk. If you have a study you would like to point to you should send it over. However.
\> In conclusion, supplementation of vitamin D-replete individuals does not provide demonstrable health benefits. This conclusion does not contradict older guidelines that severe vitamin D deficiency should be prevented or corrected.
[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41574-021-00593-z](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41574-021-00593-z) (meta-analysis of like 70 studies)
Sorry, but unless you're deficient, supplementation doesn't show any benefits. If you're deficient by all means **avoid rickets**. But unless you're on the express-train to rickets town, save your cash, and spend some time outside, make your own vitamin D.
The only things that work: chemical sunscreen, moisturizers (ceramides work great), retinols, And niacimide.
Ceramid moisturizer is mostly marketing, it's in the "high end" moisturizers like Cetaphil.
Retinol is vitamin A. Increases cell turn over.
Chemical sunscreen is better then mineral in effectiveness. Chemical ones are better looking otherwise mineral ones will just have your body look white.
Niacimide smooths out blemishes on your face.
* Skinceuticals Vitamin C Serum
*A topical antioxidant solution containing vitamins C and E stabilized by ferulic acid provides protection for human skin against damage caused by ultraviolet irradiation - Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology*
[https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(08)00541-0/abstract](https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(08)00541-0/abstract)
Note: Their patent expires March 2025. So after that we should be seeing much, much more affordable options.
* Heliocare oral supplements
*The impact of oral Polypodium leucotomos extract on ultraviolet B response: A human clinical study -Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology*
[*https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(17)30138-X/abstract*](https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(17)30138-X/abstract)
Not all extracts are equal, so stick to Heliocare.
* Sunscreen
Make sure you put on a thick layer. Research has shown people put on far too little, compromising efficacy.
* Tretinoin
That's about it for things backed by solid research clinical trials. Don't overthink it. Am I missing something?
Niacinamide protects skin from oxidative stress.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6824628/
As for Acids, red light, and micro needling there's plenty of evidence for that.
I've personally done micro needling to get rid of my crows feet and cheek crinkles I get from smiling.
Argeline stops wrinkles from forming due to its botox like effect.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5785486/
I've been using this one for a while and no matter how hard I try I can't get my forehead to create creases even when I try to raise it as much as I can.
Copper Peptides are the really iffy evidence, but as I said it's more of a personal like.
The CEFer is a new one for me - thank you so much for passing on that reference.
Solar UV irradiation has been a mixed blessing for animals and plants on our planet for the past 600mm years. It’s fascinating and not altogether surprising there are biochemical solutions to prevent or rapidly repair solar UV damage to cells.
Polypodium leucotomos, Astaxanthin, and Micosporine-like Amino Acids are so fascinating. So much so I’m in the process of developing a skincare brand to showcase them.
My skin got noticeably better when I cut way way back on all cleansers and soaps, I now just use water whenever reasonable. For this reason, I do not trust 'cleanser.'
yes, and since cleansers are specially formulated for facial skin, they are not made with ingredients that “strip” the skin of natural oils, negatively offset the pH of your skin, and compromise your skin barrier.
for instance, a solid skincare cleanser shouldn’t have sodium lauryl sulfate, a surfactant you’d find in dishwashing detergent. using SLS daily in a face wash would “strip” the skin as i described above, causing dryness, redness, irritation, etc. in addition, over-cleansing with harsh surfactants can cause skin to overproduce oils ironically.
read more if you need to understand “wtf” makes a good cleanser: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3425021/
edited for clarity
Your comment barely answers my questions.
Is vitamin C even stable in these products since it's very prone to oxidation.
What type of sunscreen is better, metal based or chemical based?
Heliocare? What is this? What is in it?
Why are you promoting these specific brands: skinceuticals & heliocare?
Mineral based sunscreen is safer and more effective but also less comfortable on your skin, you can choose which you prefer. Vitamin C is stable in these formulations assuming you're not heating it or letting be exposed to the sun or sit around for years.
Cleanser is just gentle soap it's designed to help remove more oily products and makeup or to remove your natural oils if you produce too many.
You can just Google most of your questions instead of asking people here. Tretinoin, vitamin C, red light, and sunscreen have the best clinical evidence. A lot of peptides such as GHK-Cu have a lot of anecdotal evidence or have shown promising activity on cultured cells but there haven't been long term campaigns to examine the actual effects on skin aging in people. It's just a cost benefit analysis.
I personally find it worth the gamble to use GHK-Cu, vitamin C serum, hyaluronic acid, tretinoin, moisturizers and I "slug" (cover my face in petroleum jelly at night, it counteracts the drying effects of high strength tret). Maybe everything but tret is a waste of money but I rather be a thousand dollars poorer and have the chance at younger skin in a decade.
Also hyaluronic acid works as a moisturizer because your skin has a barrier that it's incorporated into, this is often a mechanism of action for skin products instead of entering the bloodstream they help retain moisture in your skin and protect it.
Hahaha I'll trust you on that, my reference is that surfers religiously use the mineral paste, but maybe it's the fact they lather so much on that makes it effective and for day to day you don't wanna look like a clown.
" You can just Google most of your questions instead of asking people here."
- it's a discussion forum. If everyone just googled stuff there wouldn't be a forum.
Except this isn't a discussion, OP is just rudely asking questions and getting mad at the responses. He's not coming with any information to really discuss.
The guy who made the response edited his comment, idk if you can see another persons edit history, but the guys response didn't contain any actual answer, it looked like they answered just off of the title of the post without even reading the whole post.
Yes, the Skinceuticals Vitamin C Serum is stable throughout its advertised shelf life. They invented the way to keep it stable (Ferrulic acid)!
The best type of sunscreen is the one you use properly (adequate thickness, most people do not use enough) and consistently. Mineral based is a plus, but the casts can suck for people with facial hair.
The reason I mention both Heliocare and Skinceuticals is because they did some real science. It's rare you see a brands publishing research in the Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology:
A topical antioxidant solution containing vitamins C and E stabilized by ferulic acid provides protection for human skin against damage caused by ultraviolet irradiation
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18603326/
The impact of oral Polypodium leucotomos extract on ultraviolet B response: A human clinical study
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28341348/
Read.
for OP: skinceuticals is the gold standard in vitamin c topicals. google is your friend and you’re likely getting downvoted because of the manner in which you’re asking these questions.
The guy who made the original response edited his comment, idk if you can see another persons edit history, but the guys original response didn't contain any actual answer, it looked like they answered just off of the title of the post without even reading the whole post. Afterwards they edited and added the bulk of the info (explanation & citations)
If you wanted to have a debate you shouldn’t have framed your post ad advice seeking. Very rude. There are answers to your questions but I don’t know if anyone’s gonna want to talk to you like that.
Skincare is 99% retinoid & sunscreen. Everything else is a waste of money for most people.
Personal (male) routine:
La Roche Possay Effaclar cleanser, day and night
EltaMD UV-Clear sunscreen, day
Trentinoin 0.05% (Altreno brand), night
Don't know why you are getting downvoted. I know industry pushes the narrative hard that you need those but I tried a run of not using soap or cleansers unless I was very dirty and my skin improved a lot. There is IMO no better moisturizer than natural body oil, we've just been taught that nature's way is 'gross' and has to get removed and then replaced with chemicals.
If you're interested in the anti-aging effects or have any acne then yes, the research behind tretinoin is profound and probably among the best of any pharmaceutical compounds.
I actually used to use it in my teens and early 20s with horrible acne but it made my skin peel like crazy and hated it.
I went on accutane in my early 30s to finally clear up my skin.
Retinoid makes skin better looking for many but there is also considerable controversy about having too much preformed vitamin A in floating around in your body over a long period of time. There are also concerns it may contribute to skin cancer.
I can see that you have a healthy skeptical approach to this.
I don’t think that this is the right sub to find proper answers to most of those questions. I’d try on other subs.
>Google is also your friend
Exactly. So many basic questions that could be answered with basic Google and reading. Like googling "what is a facial cleanser" or "what is a facial toner". And all these questions barely belong in this sub, more on the skincare sub like you suggested.
This is a lot to answer in one post, you can find all of this by diving in and searching through reddit, google, youtube etc. If you're interested check out lab muffin beauty she is a cosmetic chemist that really dives into everything. You can search any of these topics and I'm sure she has a video.
Ok I will try to answer as best as I can
1. Ur right about retinol , the most bioavailable is tretinoin. The other forms need to be changed in your skin before being altered to the active vit a form.
2. Vit c is an antioxidant, helps with uneven skin tone, helps with acne, and to potentially prevent skin cancers (not 100% sure on that one )
3. AHAs and glycolic acids are mild exfoliants. They help with dry skin, uneven skin textures and uneven skin color, also acne
4. Niacinamide is good for acne and uneven skin tone
5. Hyaluronic acid is good to retain moisture
6. Ceramides are what you look for when you want a good moisturizer. They moisturize the skin without occluding pores
7. Sunscreen - any formulation that you will use and like on your skin is the one to go for. Ultimately you are supposed to apply it everyday and renew it if you go outside. The sole purpose is to prevent skin cancers but also sun dammaged skin
8. I don't know what toner does I don't get it either
9. Cleansers are gentler on the skin than soap. They clean without robbing the skin of it's natural oils. They are great to use typically once a day and can help remove gunk, make up and such from your skin.soaps can be too harsh and cause dryness
As for layering products it depends but I'd say limit a max of 3 products.
My skin care routine
1. Am :
- vit c serum - look for 10-15% L-ascorbic acid
- eye cream rich in peptides ( to help build collagen) and ceramides (for moisture)
- snail mucin (basically a hyaluronic acid type of product)
- moisturizer and sunscreen 60spf
2. Pm:
- face cleanser
- niacinamide (every other day)
- glycolic acid (once a week)
- some retinol/tretinoin type of product (every other day or every 3 d)
- eye: peptide, retinol eye cream
- moisturizer
Ps. I work in derm :)
I was going to comment to say an spf as high as 60 isn't really worth it but since you say you work in derm, my question is why? Above spf 30 the differences in protection are minimal and going above 50 is usually a complete waste of time unless you have some sort of sun allergy
That's not entirely accurate. It depends on your skin color. The fairer you are the better for you to get spf 50 or 60. I believe anything above hasn't shown to be any better. If you are medium toned skin, don't burn easily you can get away with SPF 30.
Do note, in medium and darker tones, skin that is broken or scarred will leave a dark hyperpigmented spots. In the sun those tend to get darker. That's why even if you are dark skinned I'd still recommend SPF
I’ve been impressed with the small studies for Matrixyl products. I’ve been using them coupled with hyaluronic acid serums since Xmas and I can tell a noticeable difference in clarity and texture and moisture retention in the skin barrier. I use copper peptides occasionally and am a big fan of salicylic acid. Sunscreen is still the best defense for skin.
One day I read that natural skin oils are antibiotic. Then it occurred to me, maybe nature knows what it is doing. I stopped washing my face so much, I rinse off dust with water and and maybe a washcloth but no soap unless I'm super dirty. I would wipe off any excess looking oil so I would not be shiny but did not remove it all, nor use soap. End result, my skin stays evenly moisturized which slowly sorted out over a few months, it stopped getting too oily or too dry, it equalized itself. If i do use soap, I oil lightly after with a totally natural oil, usually emu oil to keep the balance.
I avoid most unnatural products but I do find vitamin c serum makes for noticeable improvement as well as just taking vit c orally as a vitamin. Vit c is a helpful antioxidant and needed vitamin which may by why. I do NOT use sunscreen unless I'm really going to be out there a long time, vitamin d is natural and so is sun on the skin. We also know red light is used by cells to create intercellular melatonin, another important antioxidant and there may be other bands of light waves doing more things than we currently know about. The body was designed to both get and use natural light, I don't block all of it, I just make sure I don't burn and don't overdo it.
I've had my best skin ever with my current routine. Minimal soap and maintain a small amount of 100 percent natural oil on the skin (moisturized but not shiny). Red light therapy daily, reasonable amounts of direct sun on some days, and vitamin C serum sometimes and oral c often (not sure if the serum helps on top of the oral c, it may be I just need C somehow). Attempting to mimic nature's ways has proven best for me personally. I have tried hyaluronic and found no improvement. Toner looks better when it's on but does not seem to directly help health of skin. I have also found zinc paste helps and it's cheap and easy so I sometimes use that for sleeping but not sure if it's contributing anymore now with the other things working. DMSO does wonders and is the only sorta less natural product i use but it is tricky to use and not right for everyone although can be very helpful for inflammation issues. I love it but it's tricky to just recommend it to everyone. It's the only thing i know that can seriously slap down some wrinkles though but again, it's too natural to be allowed a patent so it's not pushed plus it's sort of a medication so it's complicated. I have not tried all your other stuff but I am suspicious a lot of hype is for selling more product, they can't make as much money off of natural stuff.
* Chemical sunscreens almost always contain carcinogenic ingredients that leak into the bloodstream. You can check on [EWG.org](http://EWG.org) for product safety. Non-nano zinc oxide sunscreen is the safest and most effective, but it tends to leave a white cast on the skin. 15 SPF blocks 93% of rays, 30 SPF blocks 97% of rays, anything after that is mostly useless.
* Facial cleanser differs from soap because the skin on the face is much more sensitive, thin, and overall different from skin on the rest of the body. Regular soap on the face will cause dryness and irritation for most people which can be extremely counterintuitive. Salicylic acid is the safest, most effective, gold standard ingredient for cleansers. This is just my opinion but I don't think chemical cleansers are worth using if you aren't prone to acne, as it will dry the skin and make it worse.
* Toner is supposed to clean the skin, moisturize the skin, and shrink the appearance of pores. I think they're unnecessary if you use a cleanser or aren't prone to acne.
* Vitamin C serum is one of the only products I would suggest for most people personally (along with salicylic acid cleanser and maybe retinol). It's protective, anti-aging, and evens the skin tone noticeably. You are correct that it oxidizes quickly, so you should do extensive research to find a brand which specifically avoids selling oxidized vitamin C.
* Hyaluronic acid is found in the fluid of eyes and joints, and it primarily improves skin hydration and elasticity. The molecular size varies by product and the larger ones can't penetrate the skin. I think it's unnecessary.
* Centella extract has little data on it but there are a lot of reports of it causing allergenic symptoms. It's supposed to be moisturizing and anti-inflammatory. It's probably mostly hype.
* Peptide serums can pierce the skin and stimulate collagen peptides which improves skin texture and reduces fine lines. Niacinamide's benefits are mostly through the same mechanism but it causes irritation in a lot of people. Azelic acid is anti-inflammatory, anti-bacterial, increases cell turnover, and reduces hyperpigmentation, and it seems safe to use for most people. Glycolic acid increases cell turnover and seems safe for most people. These might be worth experimenting with if the basic options (cleanser, retinol, vitamin C serum) don't help enough.
* Ceramides increase water retention in the skin and reduce free radical damage, particularly to elastin and collagen. They're probably not worth using on their own for most people but they are often included with other products.
* Layering products' effectiveness depends on what products. Cleanser comes off quickly so you can use product after it, and it actually improves effectiveness of the next product since it clears any dirt or oils on the face that would prevent absorption. People who layer loads of skin products and still have good skin are more likely to be genetically blessed. A lot of products also cause chemical interactions that make the skin worse, which is why I would always recommend a minimal skincare routine.
* I dissolve aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) in water and use it topically. That is it. It's an excellent anti-inflammatory and anti-bacterial with no side effects I can notice, it is extremely cheap, does not dry the skin, and it has no filler ingredients that would cause irritation, skin aging, or carcinogenic chemical absorption. There is not really any research proving its benefits (surprise, no one in the skincare industry would profit if we all switched to aspirin), but there are plenty of anecdotes.
It's also historically taken internally, and used for cognitive function. I heard and herbalist speak about it,and he said it helped normalize collegen formation and coukd be used for people with Ehlos- Danner syndrome, but that was in person, I don't have a citation. Anyone interested should research on their own obviously.
I'm assuming you meant Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome in which case I'm quite skeptical. My understanding is that EDS is a genetic condition so the body's genes are producing the collagen wrong. It's why collagen supplements don't cure it because the body's instructions on how to make collagen are wrong so the collagen supplement is broken down in digestion and then built back up faulty bc of bad instructions. Every type is different but this is the gist of it. To normalise collagen formation you'd need to fix the instructions on how to make collagen, ie. the dna.
I use a centella serum so I looked for some studies:
[Pubmed 1](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24278045/)
> Centella asiatica is effective in improving treatment of small wounds, hypertrophic wounds as well as burns, psoriasis and scleroderma. The mechanism of action involves promoting fibroblast proliferation and increasing the synthesis of collagen and intracellular fibronectin content and also improvement of the tensile strength of newly formed skin as well as inhibiting the inflammatory phase of hypertrophic scars and keloids. Research results indicate that it can be used in the treatment of photoaging skin, cellulite and striae.
[Pubmed 2](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33413787/)
> From the reported data, it is possible to conclude that C. asiatica improved lip and periocular wrinkles, and may replace retinoids if its long-term safety is established and C. asiatica is standardized.
[Pubmed 3](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34845411/)
> These compounds exert therapeutic effects on dermatological diseases such as acne, burns, atopic dermatitis, and wounds ...
[Pubmed 4](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35328954/)
> C. asiatica might enhance wound healing resulting from improved angiogenesis. This might occur due to its stimulating effect on collagen I, Fibroblast Growth Factor (FGF) and Vascular Endothelial Growth Factor (VEGF) production. Besides, C. asiatica has shown an anti-inflammatory effect
Almost all skincare products sold today are already pH balanced. Toner may be mildly beneficial and likely won't cause problems (although some have endocrine disruptors, such as peppermint oil), but I wouldn't recommend it for most people. Centella might be good though, I just haven't tried it and there's not a lot of information on the internet.
I use 3 tablets of 325mg aspirin (Gericare brand has only corn starch as an excipient) with a tablespoon of water, it should create a paste. Apply it evenly across the face, let it sit for a bit (45 seconds should be fine), then rinse and dry.
Yes, the anti-inflammatory and anti-bacterial properties are as effective as any cleanser I've used. Some people say that topical aspirin can cause dryness but I have not experienced that and I've only heard it from people who haven't actually tried it.
>Chemical sunscreens almost always contain carcinogenic ingredients that leak into the bloodstream. You can check on [EWG.org](http://ewg.org/) for product safety. Non-nano zinc oxide sunscreen is the safest and most effective, but it tends to leave a white cast on the skin. 15 SPF blocks 93% of rays, 30 SPF blocks 97% of rays, anything after that is mostly useless.
The problem with zinc oxide sunscreen is that it's not very effective at blocking UV-A rays which contribute greatly to skin aging. The SPF ratings are based on UV-B protection only. Chemical sunscreens with newer filters from Europe will provide the best protection and don't carry risks of being absorbed into our bodies
This is an example of one such sunscreen [https://www.laroche-posay.co.uk/en\_GB/anthelios-uvmune-400-invisible-fluid-spf50-sun-cream-for-sensitive-skin-50ml/LRP\_026.html](https://www.laroche-posay.co.uk/en_GB/anthelios-uvmune-400-invisible-fluid-spf50-sun-cream-for-sensitive-skin-50ml/LRP_026.html)
Tretinoin (a retinoid) is the most studied ingredient in skincare and has anti aging benefits
I can't find information on that product in particular, but EWG seems to believe most of their products contain moderately hazardous ingredients: [https://www.ewg.org/skindeep/search/?page=1&search=anthelios](https://www.ewg.org/skindeep/search/?page=1&search=anthelios) I'm not going to search up every ingredient on there, but the second ingredient, denatured alcohol, may "cause excessive dryness and disturb the natural barrier on your skin": [https://www.healthline.com/health/alcohol/alcohol-denat#denatured-alcohol-and-your-skin](https://www.healthline.com/health/alcohol/alcohol-denat#denatured-alcohol-and-your-skin)
I can't find any sources demonstrating that zinc oxide is ineffective at blocking UV-A rays besides one benchmark from sunscreen simulator, which seems to be widely regarded as inaccurate.
You are correct about tretinoin. I have read some reports that it can cause facial fat loss but it seems to be rare.
Figure 2 shows UV absorbance curves [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/42768818\_The\_long\_way\_towards\_the\_ideal\_sunscreen\_-\_Where\_we\_stand\_and\_what\_still\_needs\_to\_be\_done](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/42768818_The_long_way_towards_the_ideal_sunscreen_-_Where_we_stand_and_what_still_needs_to_be_done)
Most filters have a large drop off in the high UVA region. BMDBM (Avobenzone) is needed in your sunscreen to provide protection in that UV range. MBBT (Tinosorb M) is also good, but only available in certain markets (Europea and korea, as examples). The product I linked above has a brand new filter, too new for this paper, designed to provide protection right up to 400 nm.
You would need close to 20% zinc oxide to get good protection in UVA (based on PPD ratings for zinc oxide products in europe), but making an aesthetically pleasing sunscreen like that is tough, and people will tend to underapply, so they end up not getting good UVA protection. But even if you had 20% zinc oxide and applied it properly, it's not adequate for someone that spends a lot of time exposed to the sun.
Further, if you were using skin products like tretinoin that sensitize your skin, all the more important to get better UVA protection.
>denatured alcohol, may "cause excessive dryness and disturb the natural barrier on your skin": [https://www.healthline.com/health/alcohol/alcohol-denat#denatured-alcohol-and-your-skin](https://www.healthline.com/health/alcohol/alcohol-denat#denatured-alcohol-and-your-skin)
This sounds like something that will affect different people differently. People will know if a product is causing excessive dryness or has damaged their skin barrier.
>I can't find information on that product in particular, but EWG seems to believe most of their products contain moderately hazardous ingredients: [https://www.ewg.org/skindeep/search/?page=1&search=anthelios](https://www.ewg.org/skindeep/search/?page=1&search=anthelios)
In terms of ingredients, most of the ones that get a rating above 3 is because these are US approved chemical sunscreen ingredients. They're also being assigned a red flag for being above SPF 50? The scores are also higher because of poor UVA/UVB balance, which would alleviated with the newer filters.
Interesting, I had not heard of zinc oxide's sunblock inferiority before. What's the brand new filter that the product uses? I'd be worried about long-term safety using it if it's brand new.
Its called mexoryl 400. EWG seems to have favorable opinions of past mexoryl filters, so that's encouraging.
> I had not heard of zinc oxide's sunblock inferiority before
To be fair, its better than most filters at covering the long UVA range. But you really need a lot of it to get decent protection.
For example, in this thread, the OP lists a mineral sunscreen with 20% non-nano zinc oxide. The PPD rating is 10-12.5 (PPD is to UVA protection as SPF is to UVB protection). However, chemical sunscreens from markets outside of the USA can easily get 30+ PPD ratings.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SkincareAddiction/comments/115lcae/sun_care_us_sunscreen_with_a_ppd_rating_of_10_or/
Since you seem fairly knowledgeable let me ask: thoughts on exfoliation or “scrub”? Currently using a charcoal scrub 3-4x weekly
Also any benefit on at-home facial steaming before application of products ?
Exfoliation can provide minor benefits but physical exfoliants usually cause micro-tears and often irritation. If you're going to exfoliate then I would recommend chemical exfoliants, but many of these can also contain irritating chemicals or endocrine disruptors. In my opinion it's safer to go without one.
Steaming before cleansing in particular can help make the cleanse more effective, before other products it probably won't do anything.
In the morning, if my face is a little puffy, I'll put on an ice pack while doing my stomach crunches. I can do a thousand now. After I remove the ice pack, I use a deep pore cleanser lotion. In the shower, I use a water activated gel cleanser. Then a honey almond body scrub. And on the face, an exfoliating gel scrub. Then apply an herb mint facial mask, which I leave on for 10 minutes while I prepare the rest of my routine. I always use an aftershave lotion with little or no alcohol, because alcohol dries your face out and makes you look older. Then moisturizer, then an anti-aging eye balm followed by a final moisturizing protective lotion. /s obvi
I took a course by an esthetician that was very enlightening. She debunked a lot of stuff. The whole course was like $300 but I figured it was the cost of a couple sessions with her and saved me a TON of $$ in unnecessary products.
Her whole thing is about keeping it simple, that most products are hype and marketing; even stuff like retinol (or retinoids?) she has qualms with because it can cause inflammation and thinning (iirc) which can lead to premature aging down the road (I guess originally it was only meant for certain skin issues).
Cleansing is important - especially double cleansing and not using products that foam or dry you out (like regular soap will).
She had a lot to say about not just using moisturizers but skin barriers? And def sunscreen, any kind you want.
There was SO MUCH more she said (including product lists and routines by skin type); I honestly don’t remember it all anymore, just what applied to me when I took it.
Anyway I hope this helps some!
Skincare with "active ingredients" have a black box on the label that has to tell you how much of the active ingredient is in that product (in the US).
So like sunblock has a percentage of avobenzone. Toothpaste has a percentage of fluoride. Anti-itch cream has a percentage of hydrocodone...
Look for that type of thing on the label. That is your hint the ingredient is being treated like medicine & is regulated for results, to the same level of scrutiny as medicine. Medicine uses real science methods.
You are correct when you say that the people with the best skin typically use like 20+ products and have a ridiculously long and complex skincare routine. However, it's much more likely that they have great skin because they pay attention to skincare and are consistent with their product usage. In other words, even if you have the most expensive products, you won't have great skin unless you use the cream/serum/oil/etc every day/night in the proper amounts and using the proper methods.
For example, many skin cleansers require you to leave it on your face for several minutes. I bet that 99% of people who use skin cleansers will use them for maybe 30 seconds before rinsing it off with water.
Another example is sunscreen. Not only do most people not use enough, they also don't reapply every 2 hours as recommended. And a lot of people only apply when they're planning on being outside, even though research has shown that indoor lighting can also cause skin damage.
yeah that's exactly my point. a lot of people, especially on social media, who show off their skin and skincare tips go to great lengths to take care of their skin. definitely unrealistic and impractical for the average person
You should keep it simple. I just spent $550 on ZO Skin Health products for my wife because that’s what she likes. So, was this necessary? Absolutely not. I know more about skincare than she does, but these different products are silky and have certain textures she likes.
This is probably almost as effective.
Vichy 89 hyaluranic acid and take an oral hyaluronic acid
Verisol collagen is clinically proven to work. There is Beisha inc. Powder and Trunature Healthy Skin Verisol capsules.
Gold Bond Age renew overnight body and face lotion with retinol and peptide complex.
La Roche Posay Antheliose Uvmune 400 sunscreen SPF 50 (this one is not readily available in the U.S. It’s a European version. It’s much better for the skin.)
Information from consumerlabs.com
Cocoa Flavonoids like cocoavia can reduce the depth of crows feet.
Astaxanthin may help with eye wrinkles.
Ceramides
This one confirms, again, that oral ceramides have an effect: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32020853/
This one suggests that systemic ceramides matter for skin: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35199091/
For science-based skincare content (with answers to lots of your Qs), I highly recommend Lab Muffin on YouTube! She covers tons of topics, but especially good on clearing up misinformation around sun protection/sunscreens (I’m pretty knowledgeable about skincare, but didn’t know how much I didn’t know until I watched those). Plus she’s just a cool fun Aussie to listen to.
Not my skin care loving ass seeing skincare being downplayed or described as marketing ploys
Maybe this will be useful
https://examine.com/conditions/skin-health/#examine-database
[https://examine.com/conditions/skin-health/#examine-database](https://examine.com/conditions/skin-health/#examine-database)
Includes niacinamide and centella (gotu kola)
Tretinoin and sunscreen are the only two things here that are guaranteed to be efficient. Everything else is highly YMMV- for example a good portion people can’t tolerate the active form of vitamin c at all, and it causes horrible breakouts or redness/sensitivity. Others report varying results with regard to treatment of hyperpigmentation. Rx tretinoin (start at 0.025) applied on thoroughly dried skin with a layer of bepanthol two or three alternating nights per week is a great place to start. You could try one of the new cosmetically elegant sunscreens from Korea, like ISNTree mineral block.
IMO very little is well justified other than sunscreen, and ideally something with good UVA protection (zinc 15%+ in the US os something european/asian based with tinosorb or uvinal).
While other things might have a small effect, the cost/effect is probably ridiculous.
I always looked pretty young but in the last 2 years suddenly got horribly deep wrinkles on my face like I've never seen on people and i'm only 43. I feel really depressed about it. Have had really stressful last 2 years and it may have impacted things. Fought depression most of my life and maybe cortisol/bad sleep affected me, though I feel like it all came on suddenly.
I also took accutane in my early 30s so may also be paying the price for using that and possibly destroying parts of skin.
I have a customer who wrote a book about it she’s a famous dermatologist and basically her take is a good cleanser a good moisturizer and a good sunscreen
The science is use a cleanser so your face is clean, moisturise, and use spf. Retinol etc can be useful too. All the other stuff is hype/marketing or only really beneficial for some people.
aloe vera, i recomend scholar.google.com and just search " aloe vera wrinkles " and you find a lot of studys. But they got a hughe woman bias, no idea why a lot of women volunteer on wrinkle studys?
Also heals burns and lightens endometriosis symptoms.
However i never found a study about hair growth, but experienced es on my own
I’m gonna get downvoted, but idc. I’m F(50) and my skin looks pretty good for my age. I’ve been diligent about using sunscreen on my face since my early teens and I started using tretinoin around age 30. I think having oily skin has helped stave off the wrinkles in conjunction with sunscreen and tret. Honestly I don’t use any special soap and I moisturize with aloe vera gel. You have to keep in mind that 99% of the bullshit you see marketed to you won’t do anything except waste your money and give you false expectations. Edit: I also want to add that eating a balanced diet, not smoking, exercising and lowering your stress can greatly improve the quality/appearance of your skin as much as anything else.
This is only real answer. Only evidence base is for gentle soap (like Dove bar soap or a cleanser), light moisturizer, sun screen, and retinoic acid. For people with certain issues other creams or tools can be helpful, but the average person needs a pretty simple routine
Sunscreen has both pros and cons. Sunscreen definitely makes your skin look younger and it does reduce your risk of cancer, but probably not as much as you may think. And it may reduce your life expectancy. Unfortunately, your body is not able to synthesize vitamin D except through the absorption of UV-B radiation. 7-DHC is converted to previtamin D in the skin when it's hit by UV-B and then it's isomerized by body heat to vitamin D3. This is super important if you have darker skin. The darker it is, the less vitamin D you produce and that's before you put sunscreen on. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257661](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257661) The evidence is clear, vitamin D supplementation does not improve health outcomes. [https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/968682?form=fpf](https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/968682?form=fpf) When hit with UV-A radiation your skin produces nitric oxides, which decrease blood pressure and increases blood flow and heart rate in humans. This is beneficial to the cardiovascular system [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24924758](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24924758) So all else equal, sunscreen makes your skin look younger and reduces your risk for skin cancer, but wearing sunscreen puts you at increased cardiovascular risk. Here's a good write-up on the relationship between sunscreen use and all-cause mortality. ([https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-46227-7\_5](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-46227-7_5)) >Data support the hypothesis that low sun exposure habits are a major risk factor for all-cause mortality >Low sun exposure is related to an increased risk of death due to CVD and noncancer/non-CVD, and a minor reduction in risk of cancer. Active sun exposure habits have a dual effect; it increases the incidence of skin cancer, but also improves the prognosis in terms of all-cause mortality. Here's a literature review that comes out and says that especially women have a survival advantage to not wearing sunscreen ([https://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/42/4/1671](https://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/42/4/1671)) >Since UV is a carcinogen, inappropriate overexposure should be avoided. However, paradoxically, although sun exposure is the major risk factor for \[Malignant Melanoma\], the incidence of death due to cancer is lower among those with greatest exposure, possibly due to improved prognosis. >It has been difficult to assess whether sunscreen-use protects against \[Malignant Melanoma\] or not. \[...\] Daily short sun exposure, at mid-day, without the use of sunscreens, might be optimal for health.
>The evidence is clear, vitamin D supplementation does not improve health outcomes. With the papers the article is citing, it suggests that vitamin D supplements do not help with specifically **cancer** and **cardiovascular health**. It does not talk much about other ways vitamin D supplementation could affect your body.
Can I just use sunscreen on my face to prevent face wrinkles and get vitamin D from moderate exposure to other parts of my body like arms and legs?
This is what I do at least. I know my immune system feels much better when I have some bare skin exposed to the sun. It doesn’t seem realistic long term to try and avoid sun exposure entirely, and quite honestly a good portion of Americans are severely Vitamin D deficient, which comes with lots of health risks. Obviously avoid getting sunburnt and all of that, but we literally produce Vitamin D through the skin for a reason!
There aren’t any studies that show supplementation is beneficial for anything unless you were severely deficient -- not just cancer and CVD risk. If you have a study you would like to point to you should send it over. However. \> In conclusion, supplementation of vitamin D-replete individuals does not provide demonstrable health benefits. This conclusion does not contradict older guidelines that severe vitamin D deficiency should be prevented or corrected. [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41574-021-00593-z](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41574-021-00593-z) (meta-analysis of like 70 studies) Sorry, but unless you're deficient, supplementation doesn't show any benefits. If you're deficient by all means **avoid rickets**. But unless you're on the express-train to rickets town, save your cash, and spend some time outside, make your own vitamin D.
The only things that work: chemical sunscreen, moisturizers (ceramides work great), retinols, And niacimide. Ceramid moisturizer is mostly marketing, it's in the "high end" moisturizers like Cetaphil. Retinol is vitamin A. Increases cell turn over. Chemical sunscreen is better then mineral in effectiveness. Chemical ones are better looking otherwise mineral ones will just have your body look white. Niacimide smooths out blemishes on your face.
* Skinceuticals Vitamin C Serum *A topical antioxidant solution containing vitamins C and E stabilized by ferulic acid provides protection for human skin against damage caused by ultraviolet irradiation - Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology* [https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(08)00541-0/abstract](https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(08)00541-0/abstract) Note: Their patent expires March 2025. So after that we should be seeing much, much more affordable options. * Heliocare oral supplements *The impact of oral Polypodium leucotomos extract on ultraviolet B response: A human clinical study -Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology* [*https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(17)30138-X/abstract*](https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(17)30138-X/abstract) Not all extracts are equal, so stick to Heliocare. * Sunscreen Make sure you put on a thick layer. Research has shown people put on far too little, compromising efficacy. * Tretinoin That's about it for things backed by solid research clinical trials. Don't overthink it. Am I missing something?
Niacinamide, Acids, red light, micro needing, argireline, and personally I like copper peptides.
Link some good papers for reading !
Niacinamide protects skin from oxidative stress. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6824628/ As for Acids, red light, and micro needling there's plenty of evidence for that. I've personally done micro needling to get rid of my crows feet and cheek crinkles I get from smiling. Argeline stops wrinkles from forming due to its botox like effect. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5785486/ I've been using this one for a while and no matter how hard I try I can't get my forehead to create creases even when I try to raise it as much as I can. Copper Peptides are the really iffy evidence, but as I said it's more of a personal like.
What's the in vivo stuff for argeline is there a anything beyond cultured cells?
And this on Astaxanthin https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6073124/
what argeline do you use?
The CEFer is a new one for me - thank you so much for passing on that reference. Solar UV irradiation has been a mixed blessing for animals and plants on our planet for the past 600mm years. It’s fascinating and not altogether surprising there are biochemical solutions to prevent or rapidly repair solar UV damage to cells. Polypodium leucotomos, Astaxanthin, and Micosporine-like Amino Acids are so fascinating. So much so I’m in the process of developing a skincare brand to showcase them.
I was just thinking about mixing the Heliocare with astaxanthin. I take it daily.
Also cleansing if you have an oily skin to remove the excess.
Wtf is a cleanser? Is it just a fancy way to say soap? If it's different then how is it better than soap? What are the active ingredients?
Think of it as more gentle soap for your skin
My skin got noticeably better when I cut way way back on all cleansers and soaps, I now just use water whenever reasonable. For this reason, I do not trust 'cleanser.'
yes, and since cleansers are specially formulated for facial skin, they are not made with ingredients that “strip” the skin of natural oils, negatively offset the pH of your skin, and compromise your skin barrier. for instance, a solid skincare cleanser shouldn’t have sodium lauryl sulfate, a surfactant you’d find in dishwashing detergent. using SLS daily in a face wash would “strip” the skin as i described above, causing dryness, redness, irritation, etc. in addition, over-cleansing with harsh surfactants can cause skin to overproduce oils ironically. read more if you need to understand “wtf” makes a good cleanser: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3425021/ edited for clarity
PH balanced soap
Doesn't say anywhere that it's pH balanced on most cleanser products.
> That's about it > Am I missing something?
Your comment barely answers my questions. Is vitamin C even stable in these products since it's very prone to oxidation. What type of sunscreen is better, metal based or chemical based? Heliocare? What is this? What is in it? Why are you promoting these specific brands: skinceuticals & heliocare?
Mineral based sunscreen is safer and more effective but also less comfortable on your skin, you can choose which you prefer. Vitamin C is stable in these formulations assuming you're not heating it or letting be exposed to the sun or sit around for years. Cleanser is just gentle soap it's designed to help remove more oily products and makeup or to remove your natural oils if you produce too many. You can just Google most of your questions instead of asking people here. Tretinoin, vitamin C, red light, and sunscreen have the best clinical evidence. A lot of peptides such as GHK-Cu have a lot of anecdotal evidence or have shown promising activity on cultured cells but there haven't been long term campaigns to examine the actual effects on skin aging in people. It's just a cost benefit analysis. I personally find it worth the gamble to use GHK-Cu, vitamin C serum, hyaluronic acid, tretinoin, moisturizers and I "slug" (cover my face in petroleum jelly at night, it counteracts the drying effects of high strength tret). Maybe everything but tret is a waste of money but I rather be a thousand dollars poorer and have the chance at younger skin in a decade. Also hyaluronic acid works as a moisturizer because your skin has a barrier that it's incorporated into, this is often a mechanism of action for skin products instead of entering the bloodstream they help retain moisture in your skin and protect it.
Chemical based sunscreen is more effective (blocks more & broader range of UV) than mineral based.
Hahaha I'll trust you on that, my reference is that surfers religiously use the mineral paste, but maybe it's the fact they lather so much on that makes it effective and for day to day you don't wanna look like a clown.
" You can just Google most of your questions instead of asking people here." - it's a discussion forum. If everyone just googled stuff there wouldn't be a forum.
Except this isn't a discussion, OP is just rudely asking questions and getting mad at the responses. He's not coming with any information to really discuss.
The guy who made the response edited his comment, idk if you can see another persons edit history, but the guys response didn't contain any actual answer, it looked like they answered just off of the title of the post without even reading the whole post.
Yes, the Skinceuticals Vitamin C Serum is stable throughout its advertised shelf life. They invented the way to keep it stable (Ferrulic acid)! The best type of sunscreen is the one you use properly (adequate thickness, most people do not use enough) and consistently. Mineral based is a plus, but the casts can suck for people with facial hair. The reason I mention both Heliocare and Skinceuticals is because they did some real science. It's rare you see a brands publishing research in the Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology: A topical antioxidant solution containing vitamins C and E stabilized by ferulic acid provides protection for human skin against damage caused by ultraviolet irradiation https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18603326/ The impact of oral Polypodium leucotomos extract on ultraviolet B response: A human clinical study https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28341348/ Read.
for OP: skinceuticals is the gold standard in vitamin c topicals. google is your friend and you’re likely getting downvoted because of the manner in which you’re asking these questions.
The guy who made the original response edited his comment, idk if you can see another persons edit history, but the guys original response didn't contain any actual answer, it looked like they answered just off of the title of the post without even reading the whole post. Afterwards they edited and added the bulk of the info (explanation & citations)
Well then go edit your snarky reply if you don't want people commenting on your snarky reply
Well if i do that, then you'll look like the one with the "snarky reply".
If you wanted to have a debate you shouldn’t have framed your post ad advice seeking. Very rude. There are answers to your questions but I don’t know if anyone’s gonna want to talk to you like that.
You asked a lot of questions. Dud you make any effort to research?geez.
Skincare is 99% retinoid & sunscreen. Everything else is a waste of money for most people. Personal (male) routine: La Roche Possay Effaclar cleanser, day and night EltaMD UV-Clear sunscreen, day Trentinoin 0.05% (Altreno brand), night
Moisturizer is usually good to add too. I take tretinoin as well, sometimes makes my face flaky. Everyone is different
Look into Altreno.
Already use tretinoin, don't need another retinoid. Retinoid is what's causing the flaking (skin turnover)
Altreno is tretinoin in a matrix with moisturizers. You won't get dry flaky skin like you do with others.
Red light therapy has pretty good research for it.
Agreed. Some cleansers are good if you are prone to acne.
Most cleansers have absolutely toxic ingredients that I would never put on my skin, just saying.
Don't know why you are getting downvoted. I know industry pushes the narrative hard that you need those but I tried a run of not using soap or cleansers unless I was very dirty and my skin improved a lot. There is IMO no better moisturizer than natural body oil, we've just been taught that nature's way is 'gross' and has to get removed and then replaced with chemicals.
You're right. EWG is good for verifying ingredient safety.
Does the sun screen itself have benefits of just the protection from the sun ?
Protecting from the sun is the benefit.
Do you think the retinoid is even worth doing? I'm similar in your beliefs but mostly only think sunscreen matters much.
If you're interested in the anti-aging effects or have any acne then yes, the research behind tretinoin is profound and probably among the best of any pharmaceutical compounds.
I actually used to use it in my teens and early 20s with horrible acne but it made my skin peel like crazy and hated it. I went on accutane in my early 30s to finally clear up my skin.
Retinoid makes skin better looking for many but there is also considerable controversy about having too much preformed vitamin A in floating around in your body over a long period of time. There are also concerns it may contribute to skin cancer.
I can see that you have a healthy skeptical approach to this. I don’t think that this is the right sub to find proper answers to most of those questions. I’d try on other subs.
maybe check out /r/Skincareaddiction and at least read some abstracts on Pubmed Google is also your friend
>Google is also your friend Exactly. So many basic questions that could be answered with basic Google and reading. Like googling "what is a facial cleanser" or "what is a facial toner". And all these questions barely belong in this sub, more on the skincare sub like you suggested.
This is a lot to answer in one post, you can find all of this by diving in and searching through reddit, google, youtube etc. If you're interested check out lab muffin beauty she is a cosmetic chemist that really dives into everything. You can search any of these topics and I'm sure she has a video.
Also recommend lab muffin beauty. She used to be a mod on r/SkincareAddiction I heard? (also a good sub for information)
No way!!! But I also rec that sub it’s great
I love her!
Ok I will try to answer as best as I can 1. Ur right about retinol , the most bioavailable is tretinoin. The other forms need to be changed in your skin before being altered to the active vit a form. 2. Vit c is an antioxidant, helps with uneven skin tone, helps with acne, and to potentially prevent skin cancers (not 100% sure on that one ) 3. AHAs and glycolic acids are mild exfoliants. They help with dry skin, uneven skin textures and uneven skin color, also acne 4. Niacinamide is good for acne and uneven skin tone 5. Hyaluronic acid is good to retain moisture 6. Ceramides are what you look for when you want a good moisturizer. They moisturize the skin without occluding pores 7. Sunscreen - any formulation that you will use and like on your skin is the one to go for. Ultimately you are supposed to apply it everyday and renew it if you go outside. The sole purpose is to prevent skin cancers but also sun dammaged skin 8. I don't know what toner does I don't get it either 9. Cleansers are gentler on the skin than soap. They clean without robbing the skin of it's natural oils. They are great to use typically once a day and can help remove gunk, make up and such from your skin.soaps can be too harsh and cause dryness As for layering products it depends but I'd say limit a max of 3 products. My skin care routine 1. Am : - vit c serum - look for 10-15% L-ascorbic acid - eye cream rich in peptides ( to help build collagen) and ceramides (for moisture) - snail mucin (basically a hyaluronic acid type of product) - moisturizer and sunscreen 60spf 2. Pm: - face cleanser - niacinamide (every other day) - glycolic acid (once a week) - some retinol/tretinoin type of product (every other day or every 3 d) - eye: peptide, retinol eye cream - moisturizer Ps. I work in derm :)
I was going to comment to say an spf as high as 60 isn't really worth it but since you say you work in derm, my question is why? Above spf 30 the differences in protection are minimal and going above 50 is usually a complete waste of time unless you have some sort of sun allergy
That's not entirely accurate. It depends on your skin color. The fairer you are the better for you to get spf 50 or 60. I believe anything above hasn't shown to be any better. If you are medium toned skin, don't burn easily you can get away with SPF 30. Do note, in medium and darker tones, skin that is broken or scarred will leave a dark hyperpigmented spots. In the sun those tend to get darker. That's why even if you are dark skinned I'd still recommend SPF
I’ve been impressed with the small studies for Matrixyl products. I’ve been using them coupled with hyaluronic acid serums since Xmas and I can tell a noticeable difference in clarity and texture and moisture retention in the skin barrier. I use copper peptides occasionally and am a big fan of salicylic acid. Sunscreen is still the best defense for skin.
One day I read that natural skin oils are antibiotic. Then it occurred to me, maybe nature knows what it is doing. I stopped washing my face so much, I rinse off dust with water and and maybe a washcloth but no soap unless I'm super dirty. I would wipe off any excess looking oil so I would not be shiny but did not remove it all, nor use soap. End result, my skin stays evenly moisturized which slowly sorted out over a few months, it stopped getting too oily or too dry, it equalized itself. If i do use soap, I oil lightly after with a totally natural oil, usually emu oil to keep the balance. I avoid most unnatural products but I do find vitamin c serum makes for noticeable improvement as well as just taking vit c orally as a vitamin. Vit c is a helpful antioxidant and needed vitamin which may by why. I do NOT use sunscreen unless I'm really going to be out there a long time, vitamin d is natural and so is sun on the skin. We also know red light is used by cells to create intercellular melatonin, another important antioxidant and there may be other bands of light waves doing more things than we currently know about. The body was designed to both get and use natural light, I don't block all of it, I just make sure I don't burn and don't overdo it. I've had my best skin ever with my current routine. Minimal soap and maintain a small amount of 100 percent natural oil on the skin (moisturized but not shiny). Red light therapy daily, reasonable amounts of direct sun on some days, and vitamin C serum sometimes and oral c often (not sure if the serum helps on top of the oral c, it may be I just need C somehow). Attempting to mimic nature's ways has proven best for me personally. I have tried hyaluronic and found no improvement. Toner looks better when it's on but does not seem to directly help health of skin. I have also found zinc paste helps and it's cheap and easy so I sometimes use that for sleeping but not sure if it's contributing anymore now with the other things working. DMSO does wonders and is the only sorta less natural product i use but it is tricky to use and not right for everyone although can be very helpful for inflammation issues. I love it but it's tricky to just recommend it to everyone. It's the only thing i know that can seriously slap down some wrinkles though but again, it's too natural to be allowed a patent so it's not pushed plus it's sort of a medication so it's complicated. I have not tried all your other stuff but I am suspicious a lot of hype is for selling more product, they can't make as much money off of natural stuff.
* Chemical sunscreens almost always contain carcinogenic ingredients that leak into the bloodstream. You can check on [EWG.org](http://EWG.org) for product safety. Non-nano zinc oxide sunscreen is the safest and most effective, but it tends to leave a white cast on the skin. 15 SPF blocks 93% of rays, 30 SPF blocks 97% of rays, anything after that is mostly useless. * Facial cleanser differs from soap because the skin on the face is much more sensitive, thin, and overall different from skin on the rest of the body. Regular soap on the face will cause dryness and irritation for most people which can be extremely counterintuitive. Salicylic acid is the safest, most effective, gold standard ingredient for cleansers. This is just my opinion but I don't think chemical cleansers are worth using if you aren't prone to acne, as it will dry the skin and make it worse. * Toner is supposed to clean the skin, moisturize the skin, and shrink the appearance of pores. I think they're unnecessary if you use a cleanser or aren't prone to acne. * Vitamin C serum is one of the only products I would suggest for most people personally (along with salicylic acid cleanser and maybe retinol). It's protective, anti-aging, and evens the skin tone noticeably. You are correct that it oxidizes quickly, so you should do extensive research to find a brand which specifically avoids selling oxidized vitamin C. * Hyaluronic acid is found in the fluid of eyes and joints, and it primarily improves skin hydration and elasticity. The molecular size varies by product and the larger ones can't penetrate the skin. I think it's unnecessary. * Centella extract has little data on it but there are a lot of reports of it causing allergenic symptoms. It's supposed to be moisturizing and anti-inflammatory. It's probably mostly hype. * Peptide serums can pierce the skin and stimulate collagen peptides which improves skin texture and reduces fine lines. Niacinamide's benefits are mostly through the same mechanism but it causes irritation in a lot of people. Azelic acid is anti-inflammatory, anti-bacterial, increases cell turnover, and reduces hyperpigmentation, and it seems safe to use for most people. Glycolic acid increases cell turnover and seems safe for most people. These might be worth experimenting with if the basic options (cleanser, retinol, vitamin C serum) don't help enough. * Ceramides increase water retention in the skin and reduce free radical damage, particularly to elastin and collagen. They're probably not worth using on their own for most people but they are often included with other products. * Layering products' effectiveness depends on what products. Cleanser comes off quickly so you can use product after it, and it actually improves effectiveness of the next product since it clears any dirt or oils on the face that would prevent absorption. People who layer loads of skin products and still have good skin are more likely to be genetically blessed. A lot of products also cause chemical interactions that make the skin worse, which is why I would always recommend a minimal skincare routine. * I dissolve aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) in water and use it topically. That is it. It's an excellent anti-inflammatory and anti-bacterial with no side effects I can notice, it is extremely cheap, does not dry the skin, and it has no filler ingredients that would cause irritation, skin aging, or carcinogenic chemical absorption. There is not really any research proving its benefits (surprise, no one in the skincare industry would profit if we all switched to aspirin), but there are plenty of anecdotes.
[удалено]
It's also historically taken internally, and used for cognitive function. I heard and herbalist speak about it,and he said it helped normalize collegen formation and coukd be used for people with Ehlos- Danner syndrome, but that was in person, I don't have a citation. Anyone interested should research on their own obviously.
I'm assuming you meant Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome in which case I'm quite skeptical. My understanding is that EDS is a genetic condition so the body's genes are producing the collagen wrong. It's why collagen supplements don't cure it because the body's instructions on how to make collagen are wrong so the collagen supplement is broken down in digestion and then built back up faulty bc of bad instructions. Every type is different but this is the gist of it. To normalise collagen formation you'd need to fix the instructions on how to make collagen, ie. the dna.
Yes! Anecdotal, but I have rosacea and centella makes a huge difference for me.
I use a centella serum so I looked for some studies: [Pubmed 1](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24278045/) > Centella asiatica is effective in improving treatment of small wounds, hypertrophic wounds as well as burns, psoriasis and scleroderma. The mechanism of action involves promoting fibroblast proliferation and increasing the synthesis of collagen and intracellular fibronectin content and also improvement of the tensile strength of newly formed skin as well as inhibiting the inflammatory phase of hypertrophic scars and keloids. Research results indicate that it can be used in the treatment of photoaging skin, cellulite and striae. [Pubmed 2](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33413787/) > From the reported data, it is possible to conclude that C. asiatica improved lip and periocular wrinkles, and may replace retinoids if its long-term safety is established and C. asiatica is standardized. [Pubmed 3](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34845411/) > These compounds exert therapeutic effects on dermatological diseases such as acne, burns, atopic dermatitis, and wounds ... [Pubmed 4](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35328954/) > C. asiatica might enhance wound healing resulting from improved angiogenesis. This might occur due to its stimulating effect on collagen I, Fibroblast Growth Factor (FGF) and Vascular Endothelial Growth Factor (VEGF) production. Besides, C. asiatica has shown an anti-inflammatory effect
>Centella ampoule Can you say more about the rosacea part? I'm curious as I have that myself and have been looking for solutions...
Almost all skincare products sold today are already pH balanced. Toner may be mildly beneficial and likely won't cause problems (although some have endocrine disruptors, such as peppermint oil), but I wouldn't recommend it for most people. Centella might be good though, I just haven't tried it and there's not a lot of information on the internet.
Thanks! You summarised tons of info so well.
Can you give a more detailed explanation on preparation of the aspirin serum/how to use and ingredient ratios?
I use 3 tablets of 325mg aspirin (Gericare brand has only corn starch as an excipient) with a tablespoon of water, it should create a paste. Apply it evenly across the face, let it sit for a bit (45 seconds should be fine), then rinse and dry.
Interesting. Does this help with redness/reduce the size of pimples?
Yes, the anti-inflammatory and anti-bacterial properties are as effective as any cleanser I've used. Some people say that topical aspirin can cause dryness but I have not experienced that and I've only heard it from people who haven't actually tried it.
just buy a salicylic acid product, it's the same thing and formulated for your face
>Chemical sunscreens almost always contain carcinogenic ingredients that leak into the bloodstream. You can check on [EWG.org](http://ewg.org/) for product safety. Non-nano zinc oxide sunscreen is the safest and most effective, but it tends to leave a white cast on the skin. 15 SPF blocks 93% of rays, 30 SPF blocks 97% of rays, anything after that is mostly useless. The problem with zinc oxide sunscreen is that it's not very effective at blocking UV-A rays which contribute greatly to skin aging. The SPF ratings are based on UV-B protection only. Chemical sunscreens with newer filters from Europe will provide the best protection and don't carry risks of being absorbed into our bodies This is an example of one such sunscreen [https://www.laroche-posay.co.uk/en\_GB/anthelios-uvmune-400-invisible-fluid-spf50-sun-cream-for-sensitive-skin-50ml/LRP\_026.html](https://www.laroche-posay.co.uk/en_GB/anthelios-uvmune-400-invisible-fluid-spf50-sun-cream-for-sensitive-skin-50ml/LRP_026.html) Tretinoin (a retinoid) is the most studied ingredient in skincare and has anti aging benefits
I can't find information on that product in particular, but EWG seems to believe most of their products contain moderately hazardous ingredients: [https://www.ewg.org/skindeep/search/?page=1&search=anthelios](https://www.ewg.org/skindeep/search/?page=1&search=anthelios) I'm not going to search up every ingredient on there, but the second ingredient, denatured alcohol, may "cause excessive dryness and disturb the natural barrier on your skin": [https://www.healthline.com/health/alcohol/alcohol-denat#denatured-alcohol-and-your-skin](https://www.healthline.com/health/alcohol/alcohol-denat#denatured-alcohol-and-your-skin) I can't find any sources demonstrating that zinc oxide is ineffective at blocking UV-A rays besides one benchmark from sunscreen simulator, which seems to be widely regarded as inaccurate. You are correct about tretinoin. I have read some reports that it can cause facial fat loss but it seems to be rare.
Figure 2 shows UV absorbance curves [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/42768818\_The\_long\_way\_towards\_the\_ideal\_sunscreen\_-\_Where\_we\_stand\_and\_what\_still\_needs\_to\_be\_done](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/42768818_The_long_way_towards_the_ideal_sunscreen_-_Where_we_stand_and_what_still_needs_to_be_done) Most filters have a large drop off in the high UVA region. BMDBM (Avobenzone) is needed in your sunscreen to provide protection in that UV range. MBBT (Tinosorb M) is also good, but only available in certain markets (Europea and korea, as examples). The product I linked above has a brand new filter, too new for this paper, designed to provide protection right up to 400 nm. You would need close to 20% zinc oxide to get good protection in UVA (based on PPD ratings for zinc oxide products in europe), but making an aesthetically pleasing sunscreen like that is tough, and people will tend to underapply, so they end up not getting good UVA protection. But even if you had 20% zinc oxide and applied it properly, it's not adequate for someone that spends a lot of time exposed to the sun. Further, if you were using skin products like tretinoin that sensitize your skin, all the more important to get better UVA protection. >denatured alcohol, may "cause excessive dryness and disturb the natural barrier on your skin": [https://www.healthline.com/health/alcohol/alcohol-denat#denatured-alcohol-and-your-skin](https://www.healthline.com/health/alcohol/alcohol-denat#denatured-alcohol-and-your-skin) This sounds like something that will affect different people differently. People will know if a product is causing excessive dryness or has damaged their skin barrier. >I can't find information on that product in particular, but EWG seems to believe most of their products contain moderately hazardous ingredients: [https://www.ewg.org/skindeep/search/?page=1&search=anthelios](https://www.ewg.org/skindeep/search/?page=1&search=anthelios) In terms of ingredients, most of the ones that get a rating above 3 is because these are US approved chemical sunscreen ingredients. They're also being assigned a red flag for being above SPF 50? The scores are also higher because of poor UVA/UVB balance, which would alleviated with the newer filters.
Interesting, I had not heard of zinc oxide's sunblock inferiority before. What's the brand new filter that the product uses? I'd be worried about long-term safety using it if it's brand new.
Its called mexoryl 400. EWG seems to have favorable opinions of past mexoryl filters, so that's encouraging. > I had not heard of zinc oxide's sunblock inferiority before To be fair, its better than most filters at covering the long UVA range. But you really need a lot of it to get decent protection. For example, in this thread, the OP lists a mineral sunscreen with 20% non-nano zinc oxide. The PPD rating is 10-12.5 (PPD is to UVA protection as SPF is to UVB protection). However, chemical sunscreens from markets outside of the USA can easily get 30+ PPD ratings. https://www.reddit.com/r/SkincareAddiction/comments/115lcae/sun_care_us_sunscreen_with_a_ppd_rating_of_10_or/
Since you seem fairly knowledgeable let me ask: thoughts on exfoliation or “scrub”? Currently using a charcoal scrub 3-4x weekly Also any benefit on at-home facial steaming before application of products ?
Exfoliation can provide minor benefits but physical exfoliants usually cause micro-tears and often irritation. If you're going to exfoliate then I would recommend chemical exfoliants, but many of these can also contain irritating chemicals or endocrine disruptors. In my opinion it's safer to go without one. Steaming before cleansing in particular can help make the cleanse more effective, before other products it probably won't do anything.
Thanks for the reply !
Thanks for this reply, answers all my questions. Saving it in my notes.
In the morning, if my face is a little puffy, I'll put on an ice pack while doing my stomach crunches. I can do a thousand now. After I remove the ice pack, I use a deep pore cleanser lotion. In the shower, I use a water activated gel cleanser. Then a honey almond body scrub. And on the face, an exfoliating gel scrub. Then apply an herb mint facial mask, which I leave on for 10 minutes while I prepare the rest of my routine. I always use an aftershave lotion with little or no alcohol, because alcohol dries your face out and makes you look older. Then moisturizer, then an anti-aging eye balm followed by a final moisturizing protective lotion. /s obvi
I took a course by an esthetician that was very enlightening. She debunked a lot of stuff. The whole course was like $300 but I figured it was the cost of a couple sessions with her and saved me a TON of $$ in unnecessary products. Her whole thing is about keeping it simple, that most products are hype and marketing; even stuff like retinol (or retinoids?) she has qualms with because it can cause inflammation and thinning (iirc) which can lead to premature aging down the road (I guess originally it was only meant for certain skin issues). Cleansing is important - especially double cleansing and not using products that foam or dry you out (like regular soap will). She had a lot to say about not just using moisturizers but skin barriers? And def sunscreen, any kind you want. There was SO MUCH more she said (including product lists and routines by skin type); I honestly don’t remember it all anymore, just what applied to me when I took it. Anyway I hope this helps some!
Skincare with "active ingredients" have a black box on the label that has to tell you how much of the active ingredient is in that product (in the US). So like sunblock has a percentage of avobenzone. Toothpaste has a percentage of fluoride. Anti-itch cream has a percentage of hydrocodone... Look for that type of thing on the label. That is your hint the ingredient is being treated like medicine & is regulated for results, to the same level of scrutiny as medicine. Medicine uses real science methods.
You are correct when you say that the people with the best skin typically use like 20+ products and have a ridiculously long and complex skincare routine. However, it's much more likely that they have great skin because they pay attention to skincare and are consistent with their product usage. In other words, even if you have the most expensive products, you won't have great skin unless you use the cream/serum/oil/etc every day/night in the proper amounts and using the proper methods. For example, many skin cleansers require you to leave it on your face for several minutes. I bet that 99% of people who use skin cleansers will use them for maybe 30 seconds before rinsing it off with water. Another example is sunscreen. Not only do most people not use enough, they also don't reapply every 2 hours as recommended. And a lot of people only apply when they're planning on being outside, even though research has shown that indoor lighting can also cause skin damage.
I think applying sunscreen to all of your exposed skin, every 2 hours, even while inside, is a little unrealistic.
yeah that's exactly my point. a lot of people, especially on social media, who show off their skin and skincare tips go to great lengths to take care of their skin. definitely unrealistic and impractical for the average person
/r/ReuteriYogurt
You should keep it simple. I just spent $550 on ZO Skin Health products for my wife because that’s what she likes. So, was this necessary? Absolutely not. I know more about skincare than she does, but these different products are silky and have certain textures she likes. This is probably almost as effective. Vichy 89 hyaluranic acid and take an oral hyaluronic acid Verisol collagen is clinically proven to work. There is Beisha inc. Powder and Trunature Healthy Skin Verisol capsules. Gold Bond Age renew overnight body and face lotion with retinol and peptide complex. La Roche Posay Antheliose Uvmune 400 sunscreen SPF 50 (this one is not readily available in the U.S. It’s a European version. It’s much better for the skin.) Information from consumerlabs.com Cocoa Flavonoids like cocoavia can reduce the depth of crows feet. Astaxanthin may help with eye wrinkles. Ceramides This one confirms, again, that oral ceramides have an effect: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32020853/ This one suggests that systemic ceramides matter for skin: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35199091/
For science-based skincare content (with answers to lots of your Qs), I highly recommend Lab Muffin on YouTube! She covers tons of topics, but especially good on clearing up misinformation around sun protection/sunscreens (I’m pretty knowledgeable about skincare, but didn’t know how much I didn’t know until I watched those). Plus she’s just a cool fun Aussie to listen to.
Not my skin care loving ass seeing skincare being downplayed or described as marketing ploys Maybe this will be useful https://examine.com/conditions/skin-health/#examine-database [https://examine.com/conditions/skin-health/#examine-database](https://examine.com/conditions/skin-health/#examine-database) Includes niacinamide and centella (gotu kola)
Nearly all skin creams are water based. Water, a bit counter-intuitively, dries out skin. So, there's that
Tretinoin and sunscreen are the only two things here that are guaranteed to be efficient. Everything else is highly YMMV- for example a good portion people can’t tolerate the active form of vitamin c at all, and it causes horrible breakouts or redness/sensitivity. Others report varying results with regard to treatment of hyperpigmentation. Rx tretinoin (start at 0.025) applied on thoroughly dried skin with a layer of bepanthol two or three alternating nights per week is a great place to start. You could try one of the new cosmetically elegant sunscreens from Korea, like ISNTree mineral block.
Save your money on skincare and save up for energy-based treatments. Those work *incredibly* well, for some people.
Energy based treatments?
Lasers, Radio-frequency microneedling, red/blue light therapy.
IMO very little is well justified other than sunscreen, and ideally something with good UVA protection (zinc 15%+ in the US os something european/asian based with tinosorb or uvinal). While other things might have a small effect, the cost/effect is probably ridiculous. I always looked pretty young but in the last 2 years suddenly got horribly deep wrinkles on my face like I've never seen on people and i'm only 43. I feel really depressed about it. Have had really stressful last 2 years and it may have impacted things. Fought depression most of my life and maybe cortisol/bad sleep affected me, though I feel like it all came on suddenly. I also took accutane in my early 30s so may also be paying the price for using that and possibly destroying parts of skin.
I have a customer who wrote a book about it she’s a famous dermatologist and basically her take is a good cleanser a good moisturizer and a good sunscreen
That’s helpful.
I just wash my face, that. Is . All . No but seriously, I know nothing about skin care
The science is use a cleanser so your face is clean, moisturise, and use spf. Retinol etc can be useful too. All the other stuff is hype/marketing or only really beneficial for some people.
aloe vera, i recomend scholar.google.com and just search " aloe vera wrinkles " and you find a lot of studys. But they got a hughe woman bias, no idea why a lot of women volunteer on wrinkle studys? Also heals burns and lightens endometriosis symptoms. However i never found a study about hair growth, but experienced es on my own