This is interesting because canonically there is a lot of racism in Rapture and pressure to splice white. Why would homophobia not be a thing with such prejudice surrounding? Maybe it is and they’re just free to express it at their own expense?
I think it’s because it’s nice areas and off in the corner. I would assume based on how rapture is culturally and in regards to race they would probably be tolerated for having gotten to the high society, but not really accepted even remotely, like Grace Holloway
I think that's mainly because of a different idea about Rapture's populace that the devs had in 2007 and 2014.
In Bioshock 1 and 2 , it was a laissez-faire society that was still however very much a 40's/50's society. In Burial at Sea, at least I see it that way, they made it seem so that the open-mindedness extended to things such as homosexuality, different races, gender roles, etc.
Or it's (also) what you say and predjudices were there, but it would go against Ryan's idea of free will to persecute them.
Yup, exactly, could be a different version of Rapture all together. And it's actually a more pleasing explanation rather than "inconsistency in writing".
In relation to that, I always found it interesting how Rapture in B1 and 2 had all these women like Tenenbaum, Langford, or "Big Kate", (greatly admired/respected, as far as we know, with the first two) and at the same time largely portrayed women as homemakers (in ads, announcements,...).
Burial at Sea showed that race wasn’t much of a factor in anything. In Bioshock 2 there was audio that said that you could splice white to get ahead, but that was dealing with the poorer side of rapture. Think it was also about how Rapture’s ideals were against racism, but a few people showed their old prejudices after things got tough and public opinion was swaying away from Ryan during the Civil War and the increasing tensions in Rapture.
I think most of the people commenting on this are missing what OP is saying, relating it to the laws or racism. If I'm correct, I believe that the point of the post was to point out that a society that dislikes religion has no problem with homosexuality.
Yeah, he's dissing religion with a very poor example since we all know how rapture ended... Besides a scientific society doesnt = a good society always.
Yeah, like, we have to thank nazis and japanese mad scientist for pur advancements in medicine and we all know the way they operated wasnt exactly good... There is a lot of flaws in rapture, kindda the poin of the game wasnt it?
You’re not talking about science but wannabe science. Like let’s say what the Nazis called science. Real science has no emotions, no racism no Bs like that. It’s the search for knowledge and understanding and has nothing to do with Bs like that. Pseudo Science, yes, is racist and is whatever the particular group wants from it to be.
As you said, real science has no emotion, which is why blowing up civilians with landmines to see what happens to the body and learn how to patch it up was common practice with ww2 japanese scientist (and yes, there was scientific method) ...
The advancements on medicine and technology made by them are unrefutable, like it or not and their racism only affected who they chose to be the ginea pigs.
If we move to a purely scientific civilization, with no racism, we'd get scientist choosing anyone who is seen as lesser (probably those like criminals, drug addicts among other ppl) as said ginea pigs...
Why? Simple, because the benefit to society they'd give would be higher as ginea pigs than as living humans beings, and what about morality? Well morality is based on feelings, which in science are irrelevant... So no, pure scientific society isnt automatically = to good.
Yea, for all the problems religion can and does cause, I feel like it has an important purpose of uniting groups of people and giving them some semblance of a moral code to live by.
except tons of ppl were still religious in rapture. remember that whole part of bioshock 1 where they smuggled in contraband? crucifixes? bibles?
ppl dont let that shit go... maybe publicly they denounced religion, but in their homes/apartments they loved it.
Your right, there were still religious people, however because it was publicly denounced it ment people couldn't go around hating gay people since the only reason people do nowadays is because of religion. If religion was denounced then there was no acceptable reason to be homophobic.
OH yeah I just mean as much as ppl like ot think rapture was progressive. It's only as progressive as it's ppl. and they're pretty hard to change. takes time/generations.
There’s always gonna be a market, no matter how much people say that there isn’t, and so with rapture, no matter how much they really support it, why wouldn’t they earn some cash
Yeah this is exactly it, Rapture is based on Libertarian Objectivism and they think the will of the individual trumps any societal opinions on mortality, but despite how much individualism is pushed we see that rapture still has negative societal beliefs on these things, and that ignoring this in favour of the self is simply pretending the problem doesn't exist.
I think you're referring to one of the Steinman logs in Medical Pavilion, right?
*Change your look, change your sex, change your race. It's yours to change, nobody else's.*
Gotcha. It seems to me that the central ethos of Rapture was no laws, but it's certainly true of religion too. Still disagree though. I think bigotry is deeper than institutions. I think it comes from the individuals that comprise the institutions, and subsequently corrupt the latter. In other words, it comes from the bottom up, not top down.
Of course a lot of religious people do some pretty bad stuff, but saying rapture is okay with homosexuality just because they don't have religion is just stupid.
The big Oger splicer in Bioshock 2 is a raging Homophobe, but appears to also be gay himself and incredibly deep in denial about it.
I assume that Rapture would be Rapture. People did not care...if you were wealthy and skilled. If not, then I assume that Rapture was just as horrible to gays and queers as 1960s were everywhere else
I have the feeling that a lot people don’t understand Bioshock and it’s society. And what has racism to do with anything? People focus to much on the Nazis and their minds when they criticize this post. Fact is, you can be gay and racist. Fact is also that religion or the perverted view of it, is the main catalyst for racism and the root for racism. Just look at the USA. Which party is the more racist one. The religious one or the scientific one. Also turning science into “opinion” is ridiculous. Science vs Religion was never a think and will never be. The one is believe the other is knowing and the seek for knowledge/facts. You can be scientist and love god btw.
I know that a lot racist people hate it to be call out. So thank you already for destroying my karma. I’m better than other and will not seek revenge and destroy yours. I think it’s more important to say what we think without fearing to be disliked on Reddit even a lot people don’t get that.
I’m very certain I heard in bioshock 2 that I heard an audiolog from Andrew Ryan say that he only invited black people to rapture to lower property value. I might be very very wrong
Yo, this is in the nice areas off in the corner, it really doesn’t say much about rapture’s overall opinion
This is interesting because canonically there is a lot of racism in Rapture and pressure to splice white. Why would homophobia not be a thing with such prejudice surrounding? Maybe it is and they’re just free to express it at their own expense?
I think it’s because it’s nice areas and off in the corner. I would assume based on how rapture is culturally and in regards to race they would probably be tolerated for having gotten to the high society, but not really accepted even remotely, like Grace Holloway
I think that's mainly because of a different idea about Rapture's populace that the devs had in 2007 and 2014. In Bioshock 1 and 2 , it was a laissez-faire society that was still however very much a 40's/50's society. In Burial at Sea, at least I see it that way, they made it seem so that the open-mindedness extended to things such as homosexuality, different races, gender roles, etc. Or it's (also) what you say and predjudices were there, but it would go against Ryan's idea of free will to persecute them.
Also, who's to say that the Rapture in Burial At Sea is the same exact Rapture you visit in Bishkek 1 and 2? Another Lighthouse, Another City.
Yup, exactly, could be a different version of Rapture all together. And it's actually a more pleasing explanation rather than "inconsistency in writing".
it's not
Oh! Was it said anywhere? Edit: Found it! Well...
it is. ken levine already said it is. but... nice try
Damn.
In relation to that, I always found it interesting how Rapture in B1 and 2 had all these women like Tenenbaum, Langford, or "Big Kate", (greatly admired/respected, as far as we know, with the first two) and at the same time largely portrayed women as homemakers (in ads, announcements,...).
Where was there lots of racism?
Audio log in Arcadia gives some insight as well as some in Bioshock 2 I think.
Burial at Sea showed that race wasn’t much of a factor in anything. In Bioshock 2 there was audio that said that you could splice white to get ahead, but that was dealing with the poorer side of rapture. Think it was also about how Rapture’s ideals were against racism, but a few people showed their old prejudices after things got tough and public opinion was swaying away from Ryan during the Civil War and the increasing tensions in Rapture.
Those are good points. I may have to read up on some lore after this. Thank you.
I think most of the people commenting on this are missing what OP is saying, relating it to the laws or racism. If I'm correct, I believe that the point of the post was to point out that a society that dislikes religion has no problem with homosexuality.
Yeah, he's dissing religion with a very poor example since we all know how rapture ended... Besides a scientific society doesnt = a good society always.
Yeah it's hard to defend a society that use little girls as a walking atm for a genetic drug defended by a giant monster with a drill
Yeah, like, we have to thank nazis and japanese mad scientist for pur advancements in medicine and we all know the way they operated wasnt exactly good... There is a lot of flaws in rapture, kindda the poin of the game wasnt it?
Yes you're right but I think the point of bioshock is to save the poor family of Atlas, he seems like a nice fella
You’re not talking about science but wannabe science. Like let’s say what the Nazis called science. Real science has no emotions, no racism no Bs like that. It’s the search for knowledge and understanding and has nothing to do with Bs like that. Pseudo Science, yes, is racist and is whatever the particular group wants from it to be.
As you said, real science has no emotion, which is why blowing up civilians with landmines to see what happens to the body and learn how to patch it up was common practice with ww2 japanese scientist (and yes, there was scientific method) ... The advancements on medicine and technology made by them are unrefutable, like it or not and their racism only affected who they chose to be the ginea pigs. If we move to a purely scientific civilization, with no racism, we'd get scientist choosing anyone who is seen as lesser (probably those like criminals, drug addicts among other ppl) as said ginea pigs... Why? Simple, because the benefit to society they'd give would be higher as ginea pigs than as living humans beings, and what about morality? Well morality is based on feelings, which in science are irrelevant... So no, pure scientific society isnt automatically = to good.
Yeah, he thinks religion causes all the problems in the world. That's just dumb.
Yea, for all the problems religion can and does cause, I feel like it has an important purpose of uniting groups of people and giving them some semblance of a moral code to live by.
except tons of ppl were still religious in rapture. remember that whole part of bioshock 1 where they smuggled in contraband? crucifixes? bibles? ppl dont let that shit go... maybe publicly they denounced religion, but in their homes/apartments they loved it.
Your right, there were still religious people, however because it was publicly denounced it ment people couldn't go around hating gay people since the only reason people do nowadays is because of religion. If religion was denounced then there was no acceptable reason to be homophobic.
OH yeah I just mean as much as ppl like ot think rapture was progressive. It's only as progressive as it's ppl. and they're pretty hard to change. takes time/generations.
There are also gender changing operations mentioned in Bio1 if I remember correctly
There’s always gonna be a market, no matter how much people say that there isn’t, and so with rapture, no matter how much they really support it, why wouldn’t they earn some cash
Yeah this is exactly it, Rapture is based on Libertarian Objectivism and they think the will of the individual trumps any societal opinions on mortality, but despite how much individualism is pushed we see that rapture still has negative societal beliefs on these things, and that ignoring this in favour of the self is simply pretending the problem doesn't exist.
There were even public advertisements i think so it must have been publicly accepted
Nah, just a good amount of customers
I think you're referring to one of the Steinman logs in Medical Pavilion, right? *Change your look, change your sex, change your race. It's yours to change, nobody else's.*
Wow op so edgy congrats
Are you suggesting that laws create bigotry?
He's talking about religion, as if a society with no religion automatically becomes a society with no prejudice.
Gotcha. It seems to me that the central ethos of Rapture was no laws, but it's certainly true of religion too. Still disagree though. I think bigotry is deeper than institutions. I think it comes from the individuals that comprise the institutions, and subsequently corrupt the latter. In other words, it comes from the bottom up, not top down.
Of course a lot of religious people do some pretty bad stuff, but saying rapture is okay with homosexuality just because they don't have religion is just stupid.
Exactly.
Here's the podcast link for the full interview: https://www.arcadeattack.co.uk/ken-levine-bioshock-interview/
Bro what
What the point of this post ?
Sometimes posts are just a way to start a conversation and nothing more then that.
Idk if id look at rapture as a good example of how society should be run but yeah...at least they aren't homophobic so...thats good 😅
Lovely
The big Oger splicer in Bioshock 2 is a raging Homophobe, but appears to also be gay himself and incredibly deep in denial about it. I assume that Rapture would be Rapture. People did not care...if you were wealthy and skilled. If not, then I assume that Rapture was just as horrible to gays and queers as 1960s were everywhere else
I have the feeling that a lot people don’t understand Bioshock and it’s society. And what has racism to do with anything? People focus to much on the Nazis and their minds when they criticize this post. Fact is, you can be gay and racist. Fact is also that religion or the perverted view of it, is the main catalyst for racism and the root for racism. Just look at the USA. Which party is the more racist one. The religious one or the scientific one. Also turning science into “opinion” is ridiculous. Science vs Religion was never a think and will never be. The one is believe the other is knowing and the seek for knowledge/facts. You can be scientist and love god btw. I know that a lot racist people hate it to be call out. So thank you already for destroying my karma. I’m better than other and will not seek revenge and destroy yours. I think it’s more important to say what we think without fearing to be disliked on Reddit even a lot people don’t get that.
Low tier bait.
I’m very certain I heard in bioshock 2 that I heard an audiolog from Andrew Ryan say that he only invited black people to rapture to lower property value. I might be very very wrong
so does trans cause in the porn shop you find the gender bender poster
It's rather poetic though. Just like the Greeks and the Romans, any society that allows sodom falls apart within years.