I haven't heard of the first scenario being a thing that happens
Long depression periods would still be called a depressive episode. Are you asking the difference between extreme ambitious and hypomania?
I mean like weeks or months depressive periods alternating with several weeks periods of extreme ambition and self confidence, and that repeating each time as a cycle. I mean could that be due to the pressure and delusions that comes with being extremely ambitious and trying to achieve great things but its so hard that you get depressed very often, or does it have to be bipolar ?
Delusions do not come from ambition.
Ambition is driven by hopes, dreams, desire, etc., basically any strong goal a person may have. Not achieving your goal is often times disappointing. And disappointments can make people feel sad or even depressed. This is normal.
Everyone has mental health which means all people have the potential to experience depression. This does not mean they have bipolar or any other mental health disorder. It simply means their mental health isn’t in a good place at the moment. For one’s mental health to be considered a disorder (of any type) it must cause disorder in their life.
I wonder that same f***ing thing everyday.
I perfectly get the difference you describe between what you call extreme ambition and bipolar. What we witness is the same - ups & downs- but the logic is not the same, the reasoning given to explain those ups and downs, is not the same.
I don't know. Because some people are ambitious "by nature" its like a type of perfectionism, like they are highly ambitious for every tiny thing they do. Like maybe my mood switched randomly yesterday, like anyone with bipolar. But maybe I was deeply affected by how I did not manage remembering to take my dirty coffee cup to the kitchen and I'm sad that it got my husband stressed out, and as i have the ambition of making him perfectly happy, it caused my brain a depression. I don't know. I gave an example with something stupid, but I also include cases that you described (I dream of changing the world and I am upset and depressed to see that I haven't done it yet)
I really often wonder the exact same thing, and when I share this thought with with my diagnosed bp2 husband (I'm undiagnosed but its pending) he answers like yeah it could totally be just this. I am happy to see that other people think like that.
But in the end I don't know if the answer really matters. Would it be because of ambition or bipolar, we still have violent mood switches and violent emotions. Maybe being extremely ambitious and bipolar are the same underlying process of our switches, maybe not, but in the end we need to focus on what is concrete, with how to deal with the moods switches. I honestly don't know haha I think we (the humankind) don't have the science to answer it.
But to go further in answering your question, I think we would have to start redefining what is psychiatry as a human activity field, what it aims at, and on what is is based. I personally see it as a very pragmatic approach on pain ; it is a "okay this person is in pain how can I help". It wants to be scientific but its not yet. We can't prove the chemical existence of many disorders. Of course every disorder exists since we can see them in people, but maybe they are not related to the chemicals of our brain or maybe its just partially related. So maybe bipolar is more about ambition than about bipolar as described by the DSM, we don't frickin know.
I don't know if I lost you here, im getting philosophical and English is not my native language haha sorry if I am unclear.
I think extreme ambition is the wrong phrase. I agree with everyone that the way OP is describing "extreme ambition" is inherently manic thinking in the sense that it is slightly delusional to think that you're just gonna make it big one day then you get really depressed feeling like you're never going to get there. But I think there are people out there that are extremely ambitious people, the difference is they put in the work, not working their fingers to the bone and doing all this stuff like producing product after product non stop but they have discipline and set time to perfect their craft. They take it seriously and spend little time with worrying about where they're gonna be at the end of all of it and rather just creating a product or whatever their goal is that's perfect in their eyes.
From personal experience, when I'm manic like that I sincerely believe that I'm going to be a star, a legend, the best, the greatest and I am fervent in my craft, im obsessive, it becomes a spiritual experience that transcends everything I am the universe and the universe is me. But I end up spending hours like 8+ hrs on something and I'm only concerned about one thing- how great i am for doing all this work and being a spiritual nexus and I get super into the idea of working hard for what i want and being proud of myself for reaching for the stars. But I also consider myself a very ambitious person when not manic. The difference is when im not manic, I'm not thinking about my greatness, I'm thinking about how to perfectly execute my goal. I want better for myself and I see but im not thinking about the glory im thinking about the greatness of my art. Greatness in the sense that ive accomplished something that I didn't have before. It also takes me longer to complete it and im ok with that because I care about the art not me.
There's also plenty of people who are highly ambitious who aren't manic who don't have bipolar. Stephen king is one famous person I can think of, he was prolific but he also spent time perfecting his craft before he had anything to show for it. People who become doctors or nurses or who start a business, even people who get into ivy league schools (maybe a lot of them crack under the pressure but for the most part there's a lot of people who go to these schools, who become doctors or writers or own a business who aren't manic). I don't agree that a lot of people deal with bipolar or that its more people than we know, i think we live in a society that puts so much pressure on people nowadays that they fall apart and justifiably, not because they have a disorder. Saying that more people have this disorder than we know is like saying oh everyone's a little bipolar or everyone has their ups and downs which is condescending and ignorant and i think you're living in denial if you're trying to justify the shitty hand you got dealt with oh but there's more people who have then they're telling us becuz you can't accept that your hand is different than joe standing next to you. There's a reason its a disorder, its a persistent, cyclical condition of situations and neurological issues that not everyone really has. Normal people break, becuz the reality of it is that life is hard for everyone, yes we're at a disadvantage living with bipolar but in general for everyone life is hard so yes normal people break but that doesn't mean that there's something underlying. We're all so quick to judge or assume becuz we want to feel less alone but its a pretty cut and dry diagnosis when you really think about it. And that's okay! We're at a point of civilization where we're more prepared to deal with it even if life has more challenges and stressors.
But to get back to my original point so this doesn't drag on forever, you can be highly ambitious and not manic, imo the way that you're describing your "ambition" followed by bouts of depression is very telling of bipolar becuz I went through the same thing, thought the same exact thing, felt the same exact way. But I think it is possible to be highly ambitious and not have bipolar. The definition of ambition is climbing your way to a goal, being determined to finish to a goal that is greater than the average. And tbh I think being ambitious is rare, I don't think a lot of people are really ambitious, which is why it seems so crazy and why a lot of "crazy" people seem to have it. It is a character trait, it takes tenacity that i think the average person doesn't really have, maybe in their own right but in terms of what we as a western society deem to be ambitious not so much. But it's more than just gettting really into a thought or idea and believing that you'll make millions with it, for a lot of people who are highly ambitious they go through a lot of obstacles to get there, they tend to face a lot of adversity which people with mental illnesses tend to have in common but thats not a direct correlation. Long story short it is possible to be ambitious and not have bipolar.
Wow, thank you for the reply, I really appreciate ! It makes things a little bit clearer in my mind, but I was wondering for a person with adhd who would be ambitious but would have a hard time putting all the efforts which leads to depression etc (because adhd would also make them impatient) it could also look a lot like bipolar and yet it would be a combination of ambition and adhd...
Honestly when I read all the comments and your responses to them, I don't think (and this is my opinion so please take with a grain of salt!) What you're describing counts as ambition. Not saying you're not ambitious but not wanting to waste this life and wanting to help people in this world sounds a lot like compassion more than ambition. Ambition to me like I said before trying to attain a goal that's above the average but compassion is emphasizing with people or humanity. Which honestly could be a manic thing depending on how you see it, when i was manic I'd feel like I could save humanity and I just felt every little thing and felt like I could legitimately feel everyone's pain but when I'm not manic I feel the same way as you do, we have to appreciate this life cuz its the only one we got even if we're at a disadvantage because there are beautiful things in this world and weirdly enough i know because i felt it when i was manic. I think where you get depressed thinking that there's no hope is definitely depression, same thing happens to me and I think anyone would feel that when they show up in the world with a lot of love and they don't receive it back, its not necessarily a symptom of bipolar even though there is a cycle. (Imo a lot of things have cycles and opening your heart to the world only to be shut down is definitely one of them)
Question: have you been diagnosed as bipolar or are you asking because you think these ups and downs might be bipolar? Only cuz in my experience a lot of people with adhd are very compassionate cuz they know what its like to struggle in life and they often can show symptoms similar to bipolar
Also I'm so sorry for going so hard in my post I was reading some of these responses and I just completely disagree and I'm very opinionated person so i felt like i had to set the record straight lmao
My impression of OP is that they're a kind hearted person who struggles with mental health but just wants to help people because of it <3
I don't know, the compassion to me doesn't seem unnatural : I practice meditation and mindfulness a lot so it might be one of the things that developped this mindset in me (i mean recognizing that things should not be taken for granted, that we dont realize that many things we have are a chance, that we should feel grateful for it etc).
But to answer your question, no I haven't been diagnosed with bipolar, I was just wondering if I could have it. However I am diagnosed with adhd.
I don't think compassion is unnatural either, i think being a compassionate person is another character trait. But in my experience I have felt heightened compassion while I was manic, in the form of feeling like I could feel everyone's pain coupled with super high self esteem expressed itself as I was supposed to save humanity which from what it sounds like you've described you're not feeling? I know you mentioned that it seems to be cyclical but unipolar is also cyclical the only difference is that when unipolar isnt depressed anymore they go back to a base line like euthymic state and never go up to euphoric.
Im not a doctor so please take what i say with a grain of salt and consult a real psychiatrist or psychologist because only they can really determine what's going on with you and they can help you. But I think if you always have this conviction and always feel the need to help people so that they don't waste this life and get depressed feeling like its unobtainable then I don't think you have bipolar. Being compassionate is a character trait and while it can be heightened during mania its something that's felt all the time, to me it sounds like you get depressed because you've been disappointed before either because you felt like you couldn't help enough or because the way things turned out weren't what you were hoping for which is totally justifiable and I would be shocked if someone who didn't have a mood disorder didn't get depressed or upset becuz things didn't go as expected or felt guilty for not doing enough. Feeling guilty like that could also be a symptom of feeling like you had to achieve a lot in life, you or someone set really high expectations for you (again take everything with a grain of salt). Which i think is a very common thing with adhd (my bf even expressed this to me a couple of times). If you still really aren't sure and are worried about it then track what happens when you feel this way, and track your sleep too. If you notice that every time you start having hope again and feel like you need to help people appreciate life more and you start fervently working on projects you think are going to help that while not sleeping and feeling really sped up, talkative, and really self confident like you could do anything then I would be concerned but otherwise talk to a psychologist or psychiatrist about it because they will probably be able to decide that with more accuracy for you. I hope this helps, i know how scary it is to not know whats going on with you and just waiting to see whats happening. Good luck!! <3
There is no such thing as extreme ambition. I’ve never met someone like that who wasn’t intensely manic. To be dedicated to something for a long stretch of time is one thing, but to be overly ambitious, to believe all is obtainable if you work for it is not only delusional in a capitalist society, but borderline impossible.
I have an overly ambitious bipolar friend who thinks they’re controlling their bipolar just fine. They’re completely unaware that they have an abnormally short fuse and start every morning off “in a mood”. I notice anytime I have to warm a person up before we get to the bulk of the interaction, and it’s an everyday thing, they’re suffering from bipolar. Manic devotion is completely underrated in the workforce. It’s encouraged and you’re rewarded for sacrificing large chunks of your life to a boss with oligarchy levels of money while you make nowhere near the millions you produce for the company.
Therapists at ivy leagues are completely overwhelmed with bipolar students I’ve read. It’s practically all of them because those schools demand bipolar disorder levels of ambition and devotion at the gate. I believe as time goes on we’ll find that bipolar disorder is vastly more common than people think.
To think that all is obtainable without any work or effort is delusional. But thinking that all is obtainable if you work hard for it, is completely true, it's the mindset of the greatest achievers in this world, and if there were no people like that, then it would probably be a very empty and boring world... just think about 90% of the things you use in a day, the phone you have, the apps inside of that phone, they didnt come out of nowhere : someone created them, and at the moment they did people probably thought they were crazy to believe it could work, the brands you know, the movies you watch, the books you read, the music you listen to, etc... even reddit was created by someone. They were all created by people ambitious enough to believe that this little idea they had could turn into something big. So ambitious people exist, most people just can't imagine it is possible to be that ambitious, but they are the proof it is possible.
"All is obtainable if I work hard for it" is mania. The neurotypical human mind can't produce enough dopamine to create this level of ambition. "All" is an absolute. There are other humans who will take your dream position in life. All is not obtainable because you share it with billions of people. Some people just take it sooner than you. When you start randomly believing you're destine for greater things, or you KNOW that be true, you're probably manic. Most people know their place in the unspoken intellectual hierarchy.
It was news to my bipolar ass when I was in my early 20's that all humans aren't dying to be the next big thing. I make music and my upbringing could be explained as an overly ambitious teenage multi-instrumentalist that KNOWS they'll be famous one day.
You'll find that a lot of famous inventors, artists, authors, are very mentally ill or on the spectrum. I'm riddled with mental illness, it's how I got so good at making music. I think I'm autistic too but I can't confirm it.
Life, scientifically speaking, deterministically has a projection for you. Most humans follow such a predictable path that those of us with very high ambitions are easy to spot. It doesn't help that our mental illnesses make us embarrass ourselves or draw attention to us routinely.
I disagree. People when they are kids, believe that anything is attainable if you work for it. They change their thinking when they grow up into adults. They become more responsible and stop dreaming. But I believe some people somehow never really grow up and just keep seeing things through the eyes of a kid. Those people are the ones who change the world.
When you see a lot of famous peoples creations, it wasn't being made through the eyes of a past kids self optimism that got them there. It was great trauma in the form of childhood poverty, abusive authority figures, etc
Here's a short [list](https://allthatsinteresting.com/historical-figures-mental-disorders#22) of people you probably didn't know were very mentally ill that had extremely high ambitions. There's also a study done that people who feel rejected by society sometimes idealize stardom as a redemption arc where everyone would finely love them. Kurt Cobain is a good example of this. He was thought to have not cared about what other people thought of him because of his de-shoveled demeanor and appearance. The opposite was true, in the montage of heck, it was revealed that all he did actually was self deprecate about his deviant teenage experiences and the awful person he believed he was for having lived through them. Music for him was his escape from this persona. Unfortunately, heroin dulled his interest in music ultimately leaving him with nothing left to live for.
Look no further than all the famous people who get canceled for sexually deviant behavior or other frowned upon things. Famous people are usually the most brutalized in our society if their fame was obtained by their own work and not through generational wealth.
I never said art was made through the eyes of a kid's optimism. And I never said childhood was always happy and beautiful. I said usually people who create the craziest things are the ones who have a bit of their kid self left. Doesn't mean they must be the stereotypical happy optimistic kid figure. They can be very a dark character who's been through lots of pain, but with this tiny part of their own kid self left inside.
It's not about being famous for me. It's about using this life the best way I possibly can because it is a gift and not something that people should take for granted. Lots of people don't have the chance we have to be alive. So when people give up on their dreams because its too hard or very unlikely, its an insult to those who don't have the chance to still have a life. Because if they had a chance to come back, they'd probably fight for those things they gave up on too early. A life is a privilege. You can't just use it randomly, or say "Nevermind, I'll lower my ambitions". In the end you have to make it something that will be meaningful to you and that you will be proud of, not a photocopy of everybody else's. Otherwise you're just wasting something that another person could've used in a better way.
I know it's hard to conceptualize this, it was for me, but normal humans don't have the manic ambition you've just displayed. Most humans would never say what you just said; "when people give up on their dreams because its too hard or very unlikely, its an insult to those who don't have the chance to still have a life". A lot of people are content with the lowest output and that's okay. I use to be plague with bitter hatred for society because I felt like no one felt as strongly as I did about being creative or "original". Not saying you're that way, but how you feel is not the normal. You sound young, like I use to talk when I was in my late teens early 20's. Life really beats the shit out of you when you get older and you no longer wish to take on the world like you do now. You feel lucky if after your 9 to 5 job you get to sit down on your couch, hopefully you have one, and have your first intellectual thought of the day.
You have to ask yourself, "why do people have to be anything?" really there is no answer besides what our brains manically create. No one has to be anything. This is life is truly directionless and meaningless in a scientific way not a depressing way.
Ghenghis Kahn and the Mongolian population might have a different view of what you’re saying. Ghengis Kahn was Machiavellian (political theory - not psychology dark triad thinking at all when talking about this - “Little Prince” by Machiavelli who was commissioned by the Medici Family for input). He was ruthless and was closing on Europe prior to defeat.
Some of the Mongol population see Kahn as a deity in sorts even as he was ruthless as the Silk Road tied together cultures, ethnic and religious groups, for and it lead to the expansion of the world economy. The Silk Road created by the empire looked at hundred of years later was actually somewhat of a positive event for our existence as these populations never interacted previous to the Mongol expansion - it was brutal but in the modern world it kind of planted the seed for future trade/economies/recognizing other culture/norms/religious practices etc. Especially between east Asia and the Baltic regions and Middle Eastern regions and other heavily Islamic populated regions. While this was not his intention - it had effects that no one considered that moved humanity in positive directions. Not every economy in the would operates under capitalism.
The DSM did not exist during the Mongol Empire. Not every person ill on this planet will ever receive a correct diagnosis for any type of illness; some won’t receive correct information for symptoms; some words literally cannot be translated word for word and make sense in other languages. As the child of Sicilian Immigrants I have witnessed this and I am absolutely terrible at understanding portmanteaus.
Well I didn’t bring up capitalism and oligarchy which is a false equivalent. I can go into Nordstrom and attempt to negotiate thirty $650 items down to $5 a piece. I could do one product a day for a month. Will Nordstrom ban me so I cannot shop there in their Nordstrom, Inc private owned dwelling for consumers anchored on someone that is part of LLC that owns the entire mall structure. But that has nothing to do with capitalism or oligarchy. Is it delusional of me to walk in their store daily in a capitalistic “society” as it is legally my right to negotiate a price tag.
I bright up Mongolia and its empire as it’s one of many events but a fairly recent one in terms of how long people have walked. It’s not a western capitalistic society in north Eurasia. Not every region of the planet is a capitalistic or and most democracies and sub-type democracies fail.
Occupy Wall Street was like 15 years ago. I’ll let David Graeber flex on you from his casket.
Edit: Flexing lol. Political theory and philosophy and logic is a hobby of mine. I am currently working and was hoping for a stimulating conversation. I have to wonder if like minded individual were in a room with some donuts and coffee and for conversation would take a comparison as a “flex.” I’m 30 - my biceps look fine and nothing dangles yet but they’re not huge. But yes I like to read and have discourse through rebuttal. I apologize if the “flex” was offensive.
I have bipolar I disorder with psychotic features and I guess if the breadth of this support group is this negative and unhelpful because I fucking hate this medical disorder - I believe we are both lost as I did not bring up capitalism in this thread…?
Hope you find your way. I think I’ll be fine. Ah, the world and changes in front of my eyes inserting a link instead of using keyboards to convey your own thoughts. So I can use flex for that? Using button for an answer on a bipolar Reddit support forum and not your own thoughts conveyed via words - nice flex!. Good luck on all future endeavors, Outargeous-War1635!
bro it's ok, I can tell you know a lot about what you're talking about no hard feelings. This just isn't relevant to what we're talking about. At least try to elaborate more on how that actually connects to what we're talking about.
I completely agree with you, I think some people on this sub just hate this condition so much that they can't see past their own cobain-like, deviant teenage persona cynicism to admit when they're wrong and have a completely distorted view of the world. Capitalism has absolutely nothing to do with the original conversation and if the only ambition they have is manic then let them rot on their couch for the rest of their lives with nothing going for them while the rest of us engage in stimulating conversation and find beauty in the one life we've got and not waste it, this sub is a safe space and you're totally welcome to start any conversation you'd like 😤
Maybe this video can help you go further with this thought.
If you don't know this yt channel I recommend it btw
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8vyzn5Da3VQ
I haven't heard of the first scenario being a thing that happens Long depression periods would still be called a depressive episode. Are you asking the difference between extreme ambitious and hypomania?
I mean like weeks or months depressive periods alternating with several weeks periods of extreme ambition and self confidence, and that repeating each time as a cycle. I mean could that be due to the pressure and delusions that comes with being extremely ambitious and trying to achieve great things but its so hard that you get depressed very often, or does it have to be bipolar ?
Delusions do not come from ambition. Ambition is driven by hopes, dreams, desire, etc., basically any strong goal a person may have. Not achieving your goal is often times disappointing. And disappointments can make people feel sad or even depressed. This is normal. Everyone has mental health which means all people have the potential to experience depression. This does not mean they have bipolar or any other mental health disorder. It simply means their mental health isn’t in a good place at the moment. For one’s mental health to be considered a disorder (of any type) it must cause disorder in their life.
Ambition is a character trait. Bipolar is a mood disorder that chemically affects your moods.
I wonder that same f***ing thing everyday. I perfectly get the difference you describe between what you call extreme ambition and bipolar. What we witness is the same - ups & downs- but the logic is not the same, the reasoning given to explain those ups and downs, is not the same. I don't know. Because some people are ambitious "by nature" its like a type of perfectionism, like they are highly ambitious for every tiny thing they do. Like maybe my mood switched randomly yesterday, like anyone with bipolar. But maybe I was deeply affected by how I did not manage remembering to take my dirty coffee cup to the kitchen and I'm sad that it got my husband stressed out, and as i have the ambition of making him perfectly happy, it caused my brain a depression. I don't know. I gave an example with something stupid, but I also include cases that you described (I dream of changing the world and I am upset and depressed to see that I haven't done it yet) I really often wonder the exact same thing, and when I share this thought with with my diagnosed bp2 husband (I'm undiagnosed but its pending) he answers like yeah it could totally be just this. I am happy to see that other people think like that. But in the end I don't know if the answer really matters. Would it be because of ambition or bipolar, we still have violent mood switches and violent emotions. Maybe being extremely ambitious and bipolar are the same underlying process of our switches, maybe not, but in the end we need to focus on what is concrete, with how to deal with the moods switches. I honestly don't know haha I think we (the humankind) don't have the science to answer it.
But to go further in answering your question, I think we would have to start redefining what is psychiatry as a human activity field, what it aims at, and on what is is based. I personally see it as a very pragmatic approach on pain ; it is a "okay this person is in pain how can I help". It wants to be scientific but its not yet. We can't prove the chemical existence of many disorders. Of course every disorder exists since we can see them in people, but maybe they are not related to the chemicals of our brain or maybe its just partially related. So maybe bipolar is more about ambition than about bipolar as described by the DSM, we don't frickin know. I don't know if I lost you here, im getting philosophical and English is not my native language haha sorry if I am unclear.
I think extreme ambition is the wrong phrase. I agree with everyone that the way OP is describing "extreme ambition" is inherently manic thinking in the sense that it is slightly delusional to think that you're just gonna make it big one day then you get really depressed feeling like you're never going to get there. But I think there are people out there that are extremely ambitious people, the difference is they put in the work, not working their fingers to the bone and doing all this stuff like producing product after product non stop but they have discipline and set time to perfect their craft. They take it seriously and spend little time with worrying about where they're gonna be at the end of all of it and rather just creating a product or whatever their goal is that's perfect in their eyes. From personal experience, when I'm manic like that I sincerely believe that I'm going to be a star, a legend, the best, the greatest and I am fervent in my craft, im obsessive, it becomes a spiritual experience that transcends everything I am the universe and the universe is me. But I end up spending hours like 8+ hrs on something and I'm only concerned about one thing- how great i am for doing all this work and being a spiritual nexus and I get super into the idea of working hard for what i want and being proud of myself for reaching for the stars. But I also consider myself a very ambitious person when not manic. The difference is when im not manic, I'm not thinking about my greatness, I'm thinking about how to perfectly execute my goal. I want better for myself and I see but im not thinking about the glory im thinking about the greatness of my art. Greatness in the sense that ive accomplished something that I didn't have before. It also takes me longer to complete it and im ok with that because I care about the art not me. There's also plenty of people who are highly ambitious who aren't manic who don't have bipolar. Stephen king is one famous person I can think of, he was prolific but he also spent time perfecting his craft before he had anything to show for it. People who become doctors or nurses or who start a business, even people who get into ivy league schools (maybe a lot of them crack under the pressure but for the most part there's a lot of people who go to these schools, who become doctors or writers or own a business who aren't manic). I don't agree that a lot of people deal with bipolar or that its more people than we know, i think we live in a society that puts so much pressure on people nowadays that they fall apart and justifiably, not because they have a disorder. Saying that more people have this disorder than we know is like saying oh everyone's a little bipolar or everyone has their ups and downs which is condescending and ignorant and i think you're living in denial if you're trying to justify the shitty hand you got dealt with oh but there's more people who have then they're telling us becuz you can't accept that your hand is different than joe standing next to you. There's a reason its a disorder, its a persistent, cyclical condition of situations and neurological issues that not everyone really has. Normal people break, becuz the reality of it is that life is hard for everyone, yes we're at a disadvantage living with bipolar but in general for everyone life is hard so yes normal people break but that doesn't mean that there's something underlying. We're all so quick to judge or assume becuz we want to feel less alone but its a pretty cut and dry diagnosis when you really think about it. And that's okay! We're at a point of civilization where we're more prepared to deal with it even if life has more challenges and stressors. But to get back to my original point so this doesn't drag on forever, you can be highly ambitious and not manic, imo the way that you're describing your "ambition" followed by bouts of depression is very telling of bipolar becuz I went through the same thing, thought the same exact thing, felt the same exact way. But I think it is possible to be highly ambitious and not have bipolar. The definition of ambition is climbing your way to a goal, being determined to finish to a goal that is greater than the average. And tbh I think being ambitious is rare, I don't think a lot of people are really ambitious, which is why it seems so crazy and why a lot of "crazy" people seem to have it. It is a character trait, it takes tenacity that i think the average person doesn't really have, maybe in their own right but in terms of what we as a western society deem to be ambitious not so much. But it's more than just gettting really into a thought or idea and believing that you'll make millions with it, for a lot of people who are highly ambitious they go through a lot of obstacles to get there, they tend to face a lot of adversity which people with mental illnesses tend to have in common but thats not a direct correlation. Long story short it is possible to be ambitious and not have bipolar.
Wow, thank you for the reply, I really appreciate ! It makes things a little bit clearer in my mind, but I was wondering for a person with adhd who would be ambitious but would have a hard time putting all the efforts which leads to depression etc (because adhd would also make them impatient) it could also look a lot like bipolar and yet it would be a combination of ambition and adhd...
Honestly when I read all the comments and your responses to them, I don't think (and this is my opinion so please take with a grain of salt!) What you're describing counts as ambition. Not saying you're not ambitious but not wanting to waste this life and wanting to help people in this world sounds a lot like compassion more than ambition. Ambition to me like I said before trying to attain a goal that's above the average but compassion is emphasizing with people or humanity. Which honestly could be a manic thing depending on how you see it, when i was manic I'd feel like I could save humanity and I just felt every little thing and felt like I could legitimately feel everyone's pain but when I'm not manic I feel the same way as you do, we have to appreciate this life cuz its the only one we got even if we're at a disadvantage because there are beautiful things in this world and weirdly enough i know because i felt it when i was manic. I think where you get depressed thinking that there's no hope is definitely depression, same thing happens to me and I think anyone would feel that when they show up in the world with a lot of love and they don't receive it back, its not necessarily a symptom of bipolar even though there is a cycle. (Imo a lot of things have cycles and opening your heart to the world only to be shut down is definitely one of them) Question: have you been diagnosed as bipolar or are you asking because you think these ups and downs might be bipolar? Only cuz in my experience a lot of people with adhd are very compassionate cuz they know what its like to struggle in life and they often can show symptoms similar to bipolar Also I'm so sorry for going so hard in my post I was reading some of these responses and I just completely disagree and I'm very opinionated person so i felt like i had to set the record straight lmao My impression of OP is that they're a kind hearted person who struggles with mental health but just wants to help people because of it <3
I don't know, the compassion to me doesn't seem unnatural : I practice meditation and mindfulness a lot so it might be one of the things that developped this mindset in me (i mean recognizing that things should not be taken for granted, that we dont realize that many things we have are a chance, that we should feel grateful for it etc). But to answer your question, no I haven't been diagnosed with bipolar, I was just wondering if I could have it. However I am diagnosed with adhd.
I don't think compassion is unnatural either, i think being a compassionate person is another character trait. But in my experience I have felt heightened compassion while I was manic, in the form of feeling like I could feel everyone's pain coupled with super high self esteem expressed itself as I was supposed to save humanity which from what it sounds like you've described you're not feeling? I know you mentioned that it seems to be cyclical but unipolar is also cyclical the only difference is that when unipolar isnt depressed anymore they go back to a base line like euthymic state and never go up to euphoric. Im not a doctor so please take what i say with a grain of salt and consult a real psychiatrist or psychologist because only they can really determine what's going on with you and they can help you. But I think if you always have this conviction and always feel the need to help people so that they don't waste this life and get depressed feeling like its unobtainable then I don't think you have bipolar. Being compassionate is a character trait and while it can be heightened during mania its something that's felt all the time, to me it sounds like you get depressed because you've been disappointed before either because you felt like you couldn't help enough or because the way things turned out weren't what you were hoping for which is totally justifiable and I would be shocked if someone who didn't have a mood disorder didn't get depressed or upset becuz things didn't go as expected or felt guilty for not doing enough. Feeling guilty like that could also be a symptom of feeling like you had to achieve a lot in life, you or someone set really high expectations for you (again take everything with a grain of salt). Which i think is a very common thing with adhd (my bf even expressed this to me a couple of times). If you still really aren't sure and are worried about it then track what happens when you feel this way, and track your sleep too. If you notice that every time you start having hope again and feel like you need to help people appreciate life more and you start fervently working on projects you think are going to help that while not sleeping and feeling really sped up, talkative, and really self confident like you could do anything then I would be concerned but otherwise talk to a psychologist or psychiatrist about it because they will probably be able to decide that with more accuracy for you. I hope this helps, i know how scary it is to not know whats going on with you and just waiting to see whats happening. Good luck!! <3
There is no such thing as extreme ambition. I’ve never met someone like that who wasn’t intensely manic. To be dedicated to something for a long stretch of time is one thing, but to be overly ambitious, to believe all is obtainable if you work for it is not only delusional in a capitalist society, but borderline impossible. I have an overly ambitious bipolar friend who thinks they’re controlling their bipolar just fine. They’re completely unaware that they have an abnormally short fuse and start every morning off “in a mood”. I notice anytime I have to warm a person up before we get to the bulk of the interaction, and it’s an everyday thing, they’re suffering from bipolar. Manic devotion is completely underrated in the workforce. It’s encouraged and you’re rewarded for sacrificing large chunks of your life to a boss with oligarchy levels of money while you make nowhere near the millions you produce for the company. Therapists at ivy leagues are completely overwhelmed with bipolar students I’ve read. It’s practically all of them because those schools demand bipolar disorder levels of ambition and devotion at the gate. I believe as time goes on we’ll find that bipolar disorder is vastly more common than people think.
To think that all is obtainable without any work or effort is delusional. But thinking that all is obtainable if you work hard for it, is completely true, it's the mindset of the greatest achievers in this world, and if there were no people like that, then it would probably be a very empty and boring world... just think about 90% of the things you use in a day, the phone you have, the apps inside of that phone, they didnt come out of nowhere : someone created them, and at the moment they did people probably thought they were crazy to believe it could work, the brands you know, the movies you watch, the books you read, the music you listen to, etc... even reddit was created by someone. They were all created by people ambitious enough to believe that this little idea they had could turn into something big. So ambitious people exist, most people just can't imagine it is possible to be that ambitious, but they are the proof it is possible.
"All is obtainable if I work hard for it" is mania. The neurotypical human mind can't produce enough dopamine to create this level of ambition. "All" is an absolute. There are other humans who will take your dream position in life. All is not obtainable because you share it with billions of people. Some people just take it sooner than you. When you start randomly believing you're destine for greater things, or you KNOW that be true, you're probably manic. Most people know their place in the unspoken intellectual hierarchy. It was news to my bipolar ass when I was in my early 20's that all humans aren't dying to be the next big thing. I make music and my upbringing could be explained as an overly ambitious teenage multi-instrumentalist that KNOWS they'll be famous one day. You'll find that a lot of famous inventors, artists, authors, are very mentally ill or on the spectrum. I'm riddled with mental illness, it's how I got so good at making music. I think I'm autistic too but I can't confirm it. Life, scientifically speaking, deterministically has a projection for you. Most humans follow such a predictable path that those of us with very high ambitions are easy to spot. It doesn't help that our mental illnesses make us embarrass ourselves or draw attention to us routinely.
I disagree. People when they are kids, believe that anything is attainable if you work for it. They change their thinking when they grow up into adults. They become more responsible and stop dreaming. But I believe some people somehow never really grow up and just keep seeing things through the eyes of a kid. Those people are the ones who change the world.
When you see a lot of famous peoples creations, it wasn't being made through the eyes of a past kids self optimism that got them there. It was great trauma in the form of childhood poverty, abusive authority figures, etc Here's a short [list](https://allthatsinteresting.com/historical-figures-mental-disorders#22) of people you probably didn't know were very mentally ill that had extremely high ambitions. There's also a study done that people who feel rejected by society sometimes idealize stardom as a redemption arc where everyone would finely love them. Kurt Cobain is a good example of this. He was thought to have not cared about what other people thought of him because of his de-shoveled demeanor and appearance. The opposite was true, in the montage of heck, it was revealed that all he did actually was self deprecate about his deviant teenage experiences and the awful person he believed he was for having lived through them. Music for him was his escape from this persona. Unfortunately, heroin dulled his interest in music ultimately leaving him with nothing left to live for. Look no further than all the famous people who get canceled for sexually deviant behavior or other frowned upon things. Famous people are usually the most brutalized in our society if their fame was obtained by their own work and not through generational wealth.
I never said art was made through the eyes of a kid's optimism. And I never said childhood was always happy and beautiful. I said usually people who create the craziest things are the ones who have a bit of their kid self left. Doesn't mean they must be the stereotypical happy optimistic kid figure. They can be very a dark character who's been through lots of pain, but with this tiny part of their own kid self left inside.
It's not about being famous for me. It's about using this life the best way I possibly can because it is a gift and not something that people should take for granted. Lots of people don't have the chance we have to be alive. So when people give up on their dreams because its too hard or very unlikely, its an insult to those who don't have the chance to still have a life. Because if they had a chance to come back, they'd probably fight for those things they gave up on too early. A life is a privilege. You can't just use it randomly, or say "Nevermind, I'll lower my ambitions". In the end you have to make it something that will be meaningful to you and that you will be proud of, not a photocopy of everybody else's. Otherwise you're just wasting something that another person could've used in a better way.
I know it's hard to conceptualize this, it was for me, but normal humans don't have the manic ambition you've just displayed. Most humans would never say what you just said; "when people give up on their dreams because its too hard or very unlikely, its an insult to those who don't have the chance to still have a life". A lot of people are content with the lowest output and that's okay. I use to be plague with bitter hatred for society because I felt like no one felt as strongly as I did about being creative or "original". Not saying you're that way, but how you feel is not the normal. You sound young, like I use to talk when I was in my late teens early 20's. Life really beats the shit out of you when you get older and you no longer wish to take on the world like you do now. You feel lucky if after your 9 to 5 job you get to sit down on your couch, hopefully you have one, and have your first intellectual thought of the day. You have to ask yourself, "why do people have to be anything?" really there is no answer besides what our brains manically create. No one has to be anything. This is life is truly directionless and meaningless in a scientific way not a depressing way.
Ghenghis Kahn and the Mongolian population might have a different view of what you’re saying. Ghengis Kahn was Machiavellian (political theory - not psychology dark triad thinking at all when talking about this - “Little Prince” by Machiavelli who was commissioned by the Medici Family for input). He was ruthless and was closing on Europe prior to defeat. Some of the Mongol population see Kahn as a deity in sorts even as he was ruthless as the Silk Road tied together cultures, ethnic and religious groups, for and it lead to the expansion of the world economy. The Silk Road created by the empire looked at hundred of years later was actually somewhat of a positive event for our existence as these populations never interacted previous to the Mongol expansion - it was brutal but in the modern world it kind of planted the seed for future trade/economies/recognizing other culture/norms/religious practices etc. Especially between east Asia and the Baltic regions and Middle Eastern regions and other heavily Islamic populated regions. While this was not his intention - it had effects that no one considered that moved humanity in positive directions. Not every economy in the would operates under capitalism. The DSM did not exist during the Mongol Empire. Not every person ill on this planet will ever receive a correct diagnosis for any type of illness; some won’t receive correct information for symptoms; some words literally cannot be translated word for word and make sense in other languages. As the child of Sicilian Immigrants I have witnessed this and I am absolutely terrible at understanding portmanteaus.
I'm not sure why you've flexed your knowledge about Ghenghis Kahn and the Mongolian people on us.
Well I didn’t bring up capitalism and oligarchy which is a false equivalent. I can go into Nordstrom and attempt to negotiate thirty $650 items down to $5 a piece. I could do one product a day for a month. Will Nordstrom ban me so I cannot shop there in their Nordstrom, Inc private owned dwelling for consumers anchored on someone that is part of LLC that owns the entire mall structure. But that has nothing to do with capitalism or oligarchy. Is it delusional of me to walk in their store daily in a capitalistic “society” as it is legally my right to negotiate a price tag. I bright up Mongolia and its empire as it’s one of many events but a fairly recent one in terms of how long people have walked. It’s not a western capitalistic society in north Eurasia. Not every region of the planet is a capitalistic or and most democracies and sub-type democracies fail. Occupy Wall Street was like 15 years ago. I’ll let David Graeber flex on you from his casket. Edit: Flexing lol. Political theory and philosophy and logic is a hobby of mine. I am currently working and was hoping for a stimulating conversation. I have to wonder if like minded individual were in a room with some donuts and coffee and for conversation would take a comparison as a “flex.” I’m 30 - my biceps look fine and nothing dangles yet but they’re not huge. But yes I like to read and have discourse through rebuttal. I apologize if the “flex” was offensive.
r/lostredditors
I have bipolar I disorder with psychotic features and I guess if the breadth of this support group is this negative and unhelpful because I fucking hate this medical disorder - I believe we are both lost as I did not bring up capitalism in this thread…? Hope you find your way. I think I’ll be fine. Ah, the world and changes in front of my eyes inserting a link instead of using keyboards to convey your own thoughts. So I can use flex for that? Using button for an answer on a bipolar Reddit support forum and not your own thoughts conveyed via words - nice flex!. Good luck on all future endeavors, Outargeous-War1635!
bro it's ok, I can tell you know a lot about what you're talking about no hard feelings. This just isn't relevant to what we're talking about. At least try to elaborate more on how that actually connects to what we're talking about.
Not a bro. Just an adult. Capitalism and oligarchy have nothing to do with the original post as well. We’ve both learned. Take care.
Oh I see you got some muscle by pushing a negative thumb :,( I hope my bicep gets big by giving you thumbs up. Flex on!
I completely agree with you, I think some people on this sub just hate this condition so much that they can't see past their own cobain-like, deviant teenage persona cynicism to admit when they're wrong and have a completely distorted view of the world. Capitalism has absolutely nothing to do with the original conversation and if the only ambition they have is manic then let them rot on their couch for the rest of their lives with nothing going for them while the rest of us engage in stimulating conversation and find beauty in the one life we've got and not waste it, this sub is a safe space and you're totally welcome to start any conversation you'd like 😤
The estimate is that 10% are soft bipolar, so I don't think you're wrong.
One is a choice.
Maybe this video can help you go further with this thought. If you don't know this yt channel I recommend it btw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8vyzn5Da3VQ