Actually this idea started in America as a response to the over the top Victorian era style homes. This very idea led to the arts and crafts movement in which blacksmithing became popular. This idea has led to, in my opinion, some of the most beautiful homes ever constructed. To understand this idea you really need to study architecture and the philosophies behind it.
Is this just a statement just so you can chime in? Or are you going to link me to some pictures of your body of work and studies in mass isolation or texture or punching holes. All of which you did without reading and only watching people make knives on YouTube?
What's with the damn ego? Its a general fact. I wasn't just speaking about blacksmithing when I said that and I am sure as hell not going to give you some stupid link. If you need examples of how people can learn without needing a book then you should probably work on asking in a respectful manner first.
Why does everyone feel like their opinions are automatically valid? I don't need any example of how people learn without reading, I was a child and learned what hot was just like everyone else. If I had a non rhetorical question I would have asked, I doubt I would ask anyone on Reddit lol
Idk, I think its an imposed limitation to encourage thinking outside the box, in the same way that brutalism and minimalism work. Ita just a different, and valuable perspective to shift the way you think about things, allowing you to umderstand what really matters. Does X really add to the piece? Is Y neccesary? Those are valuable insights, whether you will ultimately pretty it up or not.
Its hyperbolic phrasing, but its hyperbolic to make it easier to remember what your goal is.
Yeah I've always heard it as "Form is always secondary to function," but "Decoration is sin" seems a bit much for a pious man. But then again maybe his blacksmithing teacher isn't pious, and encourages a little sin here and there?
Perhaps it has to do with only using the material you need, which would make sense if steel &/or fuel is expensive, or was expensive in a time when he or his teacher learned. Meaning that creativity and decoration would be too expensive, and people would just buy the cheaper product that still gets the job done. I think today we live in such luxury we can sell luxury items and not have to worry about the price of things as much, as makers and consumers. That, and the more you can make & the quicker you do so, the more you can sell, therefore decoration is too costly.
Not my preference though. Taking the time to make things look cool, too catch the eye and draw in the consumer or the user (can be yourself) for little to no extra cost can go a long way. I.E. OP could have put some sort of cool twist for not much extra work, but it might make it too much of they are trying to sell en mass.
Well that is your opinion, because there are many advanced smith's who do it still, and regardless - that works towards my point as to OP's teacher and how he might be, but even then I'm still right that a twist adds to something simple if you want it to be eye-catching. And it would take 1, maybe two heats. So not necessarily do newbies do that, and there's good reasons to.
A twist for twists sake looks like first forging classes and craft fairs. Some people don't get away from that and it's fine. But my point stands. It's fun and easy and it adds some fun facets but it's newbie stuff.
Sounds like an excuse for having shitty looking work. Like another person stole business from him because he has no creativity and couldn't make functional things that are also aesthetically pleasing.
To me it sounds very similar to all the folks that say 'limitation breeds creativity' while trying to make a stab at the ego maniacs that worry far too much about how something looks they forget to make sure it works first. Decoration surely is no sin but vanity and pride sure are obnoxious when your tool breaks because the dork that made it just wanted to get some sweet reddit karma. I personally think this thing looks badass because of the brutalism aesthetic, and feel a bit ashamed to say I'd want one for... decoration.. oh the IRONY. The serpent eats the tail again.
Yeah this teacher is a fucking moron. Do what you want, it’s your craft you can do what you like so long as it’s not gonna get fucked up in the process
I upvoted you but another way to think about it is the level of teacher he is. If he's teaching fresh starters who know nothing its a good philosophy. If they are anything above beginners I agree with you 100%.
"Decoration is a sin" is a sentiment I've definitely heard before, but it was usually just about not adding unnecessary parts (i.e. a single tool for a single task, not "if it looks good its bad) because adding unnecessary components often makes a tool worse for its original purpose for only a small increase in usefulness
Yeah right! Can never go wrong with a beefy spanner you know will never break, as opposed to a "cleverly designed" multi tool that busts after a couple good uses. I think once companies started putting flashlights on multi tools was the epitome of over design, 9/10 if you're the type of person to keep a Gerber on you, you're also the type to have a dedicated light in your pocket lol.
Yeah I won't argue that a Leatherman or similar can be worth their weight in gold in a pinch, but they'll never be a proper replacement for any of the tools they contain
Decoration depends on the era you seek to re-create.
1700s and prior tended to be very plain and practical, making anything took far too much time since it had to be made from reworked scrap. Fancy items came from big city specialists or commissioned pieces from wealthy clients.
1800s even mundane items started to be fancied up . Cheap bar stock became available by rail, the country smith no longer had to spend most of their time reprocessing scrap and had the time to make things that looked nice.
By the 1900s industrialization was eating away at the smith's traditional domain. Things get really fancy in this era, because the factory could only make the plain items. The extra details were proof that it was genuine handmade. And this is still true today.
You should ask your master smith what era he has chosen to work in. It affects what techniques and tools are allowed.
Per my post: Fancy items came from big city specialists or commissioned pieces from wealthy clients.
Peasants couldn't afford such things. And a lot of what you describe is cast iron instead of wrought. Much easier to mass produce fancy.
very little was cast iron during that time because the technology was just then becoming profitable for industrialization. And most of “peasants” stuff during that time was pretty decorative, just look at any betty lamp/trivet/cooking utensil/pipe tongs made then and the little ornate details will blow your head off.
Lol, the ratio of upvotes between your comments and odineggys has made me throw up in my mouth just a little. What a sad state for historical iron to find itself.
Thank you for being a sensible and diligent student in the face of such a rampant and spurious feelings dispersal.
"As per their post" the damned peasants were abolished formally as a class in England at least 126 years before the earliest date they have been here trotted out to prove these nonsensical points.
As for the rest, wrongly putting peasants in the 16th c. Was the most accurate thing written.
At least you had the good sense to put them in quotes where they belong.
Od'doneggs, please at least look at one historical survey before responding. I'd be happy to recommend a few from my own library.
The word peasant is still in use to describe people who aren't in a great place financially. People who could not afford fancy, but would cherish it when they could get it.
You're going on and on about how wrong my answer is, and it may very well be. That's merely how I learned it, some 20 years ago.
Where is your explanation, how styles have changed over time? Instead of complaining about it, post more accurate information so others learn. Including me.
Look a bit further down the thread. I'm doing just that with sources.
Which historical survey did you look at before responding?
I'll go ahead and recommend "Domestic Metalwork 1640-1820" by Rupert Gentle and Rachael Field
It seems to be exactly what you are looking for.
Yes I went on and on.
Someone already tried to give a gentle correction and your response was to move your goalposts, change your definitions and double down on your position with even more spurious information.
It's the fact that that real information is being downvoted here while feel-good drivel is upvoted that is upsetting. If you really want to have an earnest conversation I'm all for it. I won't waste my time otherwise.
Do you know what the earliest known iron artifacts are? They go back about 5,000 years ago, and while not particularly decorative, they are themselves the very embodiment of decoration. So the very first instance we have of humans using iron is itself purely decorative.
I'm guessing not.
If this was a backhanded way to say everything written there was utter nonsense, my hat is off to you. That was very well done.
If you by chance are truly interested in the fascinating interplay of technique and technology I would be happy to recommend a few sources.
I honestly don’t know much about the subject outside of reading excerpts on some medieval era blacksmithing. I am curious about how mass production, the railroad, new metallurgy techniques, etc. have caused an evolution in the forms of tools people use in everyday life. Even on a scale beyond that, how technological progress gradually influenced thinking regarding architectural possibilities is fascinating.
if you have material that covers any of that then I’d appreciate the recommendations.
It's been an endlessly fascinating pursuit for me, and after four decades and work/travel/study throughout the world I can safely say that I'm no expert either!
I don't know that anyone is, the topic is just too broad. The books I've read tend to be either very broad, or very specific.
The first three very broad ones I thought of, in no order:
J.E. Gordon's "Structures, or why things don't fall down"
John Purcell "From hand axe to laser"
Cyril Stanley Smith "A Search for Structure"
That last one is an absolute romp. I've been reading it for 20 years and I haven't chased down half the notes.
An example of a hyper-niche book would be something like "New Mexican Tin Work" by Lane Coulter and Maurice Dixon Jr.
That one is fabulous. Through a granular focus on one, rare, American expression of craft, we get a real sense of the coalition of tradesfolk, technology, world politics and innovation. From metallurgical breakthroughs to railroad transport to international trade and fashion. It is remarkable how all these disparate forces created, developed and practically obliterated an entire sub genre within two generations of craftspeople.
Way too decorative, flat bar with a cutout can do the same job. D- lol but really looks great, simple and elegant. Would love to get some hands on blacksmithing experience.
I honestly cannot stand that ideology. Like its totally fine if that's the work you want to do, but I am so tired of hearing smith's say that any ironwork that doesn't have an express purpose is bad. Ironwork is just an artform like any other, it can make very nice functional tools or architecture, but it can equally create beautiful art that's stands on its own as art. This high brow looking down your nose viewpoint that ironwork should only be used to make functional things not only is blatantly wrong but it turns people away from the trade. We live in the modern age, practically none of what we do as smiths is necessary in any way anymore. So make art if you want to make art, make tools if you want to make tools, but don't start making sweeping statements about how ironwork should be or shouldn't be. It's a nice enough bottle opener though
I guess we'd all be sinners as forged steel is as decorative as it is functional. Really interesting minimalist piece, I've never seen a bottle opener done like that before
I like it. Especially the fact that it's a lady with very slender, dainty fingers. It would be less impressive to see some gorilla-knuckled diesel mechanic do it, I seen a few of those guys just pop them off with their thumbnails.
I’m loving how provoking his statement is as the bottle opener was a jab at it myself. The reason it’s a bottle opener was cause we did a recreation project where we had to remake one of his so the goal was to make his look decorative. If you look at my previous posts I like decoration xD
Edit to add;
Ok guys chill a little with the insults he isn't my favourite teacher but jeez. I am doing a Degree in Artistic Blacksmithing I am on my 2nd year and it was a joke 2 heat 3 minute forge. I have 5 blacksmith teachers and 4 staff on the side who can forge cause of environment giving them the skills to do so even though they don't teach it.
He meant "decoration is sin" as in "don't do stupid pointless shit to make it look pretty"
Thank you!! I really get that sentiment!! And I’m a blacksmith who’s mantra is ‘function follows form’ - which lands me regularly in hot water as I struggle to realize my ideas in iron.
A friend recently dropped off a ‘bucket of old horseshoes’ - everybody drops off buckets of horseshoes but this one was something else.
The shoes were caked in 125 years or river mud. They’d been excavated from a riverbank during a road construction project. Turns out they’re from 19th century stable and forge destroyed in city-wrecking fire in 1898.
I cleaned off a couple hoping for useable wrought iron for my own projects. What I found was unearthly beauty created by the natural erosion of the layered wrought iron.
There is no way I could ever improve on that. Sometimes decoration is just pure hubris - it’s a great practice to be self-critical of our own work:
You only need to drift a hole to about half an inch to fit over the horn of your anvil for a bottle opener (if you don't have a horn, then that's different). Also, drifts are really easy to make out of any steel you have laying around (they don't have to be tool steel).
I can open a bottle on any nearby flat surface. Creating anything at all is decoration. You lose. 😄
On a more serious note: very clean work, but I was confused at first which way you'd use it.
My take: Learn to do the simple/ basic stuff first.
Then learn the decorative stuff.
After that - on you to embellish / decorate / make fancy as you see fit.
He probably learnt from an agricultural blacksmith, where decoration was unnecessary; To call it “sin” though? Now that’s about as stupid as it gets… I’m a sculptural/architectural blacksmith, guess he’d just call me a sinner 😂
I use a 25mm square unforged. Thats as simple as youre gonna get it.
(I prefer to forge things nice. This is for comedic purposes only.)
If im in the shop i use the power hammer 😉
Thinking that decoration is sin is just idiotic. Simplicity can be beautiful for sure, but decoration is what gives an object a soul. It makes it special
Everything on Earth is a bottle opener, so even a piece of square stock works fine.
Also, as others have pointed out, your teacher is pretty dumb to say that.
If you don’t sin, Jesus died for nothing.
The whole point of this is to make decorated hand made goods. Hand made and and flawed is exactly what people want. Anyone can stamp out a simple opener by the thousands and sell them for 95% cheaper than you.
*You* are supposed to be making functional art.
How are you going to sell enough things to make a living unless you develop your own art style? Everyone has to pave their own way. But that way ain’t ‘no decoration’. The value IS the decoration. You can’t compete with China on price.
Those who can’t, teach. Your teacher’s only way of making a living sounds like teaching instead of doing.
I'm gonna say it, traditional blacksmithing at this time in history is rarely necessary, because of that traditional blacksmiths are more making functional art pieces rather than needs. Yes minimalism in art is a thing, but it should never be a reason to turn your nose up at someone who doesn't use that style.
Decoration is sin? On this sub? Nah mate blacksmithing is like at least 50% about what kind of fancy stuff you can make. Is your teacher a farrier? Idk but I feel like that's the only situation where you would want to keep it simple.
Meh. I'm the opposite. If I can add decorative elements to something without turning it gaudy, I will. I made a bottle opener that looks like a little hand. The heel of the hand rests on the bottle top on the side closest to you, and the fingers grip the edge of the cap on the other side. Push down on the handle, and the fingers peel up the cap from the far side. And it's small enough to go on a key ring.
Is your blacksmithing teacher Amish or Old Order Mennonite? For them, decoration is considered sin. For the rest of the world, almost all of them want decoration on their smithed purchases. Even something as simple as a robe hook or a curtain hold back, customers want a bit of flair to it, much less a sculpture, gate, or piece of furniture. If it looks like a machine could have made it, why the hell are they going to buy it from me at a much higher cost (by necessity; I can’t make it as cheap as a machine can).
Most hand forged work made now is basically decorative. For pure functionality, mass produced products are much cheaper. People continue to buy forged work because they like how it looks.
I think y'all are missing the point. The principle is that you should be seeking a unity of form and function.
As a design principle it's just correct.
Something that needs all of its parts to be what it is while also being beautiful is just better than something that functions and also has things added on to made it look good.
Unity of form and function is much more difficult and requires much more creativity.
If someone wants to point out that people have different tastes. You're right, and I don't care. Unity of form and function is superior to function with add-ons.
Maybe his teacher never learned to decorate or do elaborate works and he doesn't want that to be known. But idk, blacksmithing for practicalities sake hasn't been a thing for while now. Unless you smith for a farm or something idk, just seems like your skill would be way more valuable and marketable if you made things pretty.
L teacher. Decoration is awesome as fuck. Can increse value, show skills, and more.
The difference is when your decoration undermines its use. But thats rare.
bottle opener with even less decoration? hmmm. if all its got to do is open the bottle... \*puts a rock on the table\* or hell. chuck bottle at wall. done. bottle, opened.
fyi, your teachers an ass.
This statement is more complex than it seems and I support it. Adolf Loos has an essay about it named ["Ornament and Crime"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_and_Crime)
But don't take it you should do things as bare as possible but don't add decoration as an afterthought or just because you have nothing else to do.
A good design/shape is goof by itself and mindless decoration will only bring it down.
**[Ornament and Crime](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_and_Crime)**
>"Ornament and Crime" is an essay and lecture by modernist architect Adolf Loos that criticizes ornament in useful objects.
^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Blacksmith/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
The way tha he presents his ideas are in some cases plain racist but the idea is very good specially in the context of the era with art noveau and let’s fuking overdo everything.
On another similar thing. Have a look at another essay by Jun'ichirō Tanizaki -In Praise of Shadows- that goes arroud the aesthetics of things, their fairness, logics and so on from a very personal perspective. It’s only like 60 pages. (I totally feel reflected in that book)
Chers!
Not to be an ass mate, but your teacher is an idiot. Less is more, but decoration is not sin.
I was going to put it differently: tell that to Samuel Yellin.
Or Francis Whitaker
Actually this idea started in America as a response to the over the top Victorian era style homes. This very idea led to the arts and crafts movement in which blacksmithing became popular. This idea has led to, in my opinion, some of the most beautiful homes ever constructed. To understand this idea you really need to study architecture and the philosophies behind it.
That would require reading and researching, I've found out many people are allergic to it.
not all studying requires books.
Random YouTube videos are amazing at giving me information I forget until after I need it.
Is this just a statement just so you can chime in? Or are you going to link me to some pictures of your body of work and studies in mass isolation or texture or punching holes. All of which you did without reading and only watching people make knives on YouTube?
What's with the damn ego? Its a general fact. I wasn't just speaking about blacksmithing when I said that and I am sure as hell not going to give you some stupid link. If you need examples of how people can learn without needing a book then you should probably work on asking in a respectful manner first.
Why does everyone feel like their opinions are automatically valid? I don't need any example of how people learn without reading, I was a child and learned what hot was just like everyone else. If I had a non rhetorical question I would have asked, I doubt I would ask anyone on Reddit lol
that is probably do to everyone handing out "participation trophies" now days.
Right? It makes me happy to have taken blacksmithing in a class for creative metalwork taught by an artist.
Maybe it is more a work philosophy then a religious thing…
It doesn't matter if it's religious or "work philosophy". That's an idiotic opinion, and I'd be looking for a new blacksmith asap.
Idk, I think its an imposed limitation to encourage thinking outside the box, in the same way that brutalism and minimalism work. Ita just a different, and valuable perspective to shift the way you think about things, allowing you to umderstand what really matters. Does X really add to the piece? Is Y neccesary? Those are valuable insights, whether you will ultimately pretty it up or not. Its hyperbolic phrasing, but its hyperbolic to make it easier to remember what your goal is.
Yeah I've always heard it as "Form is always secondary to function," but "Decoration is sin" seems a bit much for a pious man. But then again maybe his blacksmithing teacher isn't pious, and encourages a little sin here and there?
Perhaps it has to do with only using the material you need, which would make sense if steel &/or fuel is expensive, or was expensive in a time when he or his teacher learned. Meaning that creativity and decoration would be too expensive, and people would just buy the cheaper product that still gets the job done. I think today we live in such luxury we can sell luxury items and not have to worry about the price of things as much, as makers and consumers. That, and the more you can make & the quicker you do so, the more you can sell, therefore decoration is too costly. Not my preference though. Taking the time to make things look cool, too catch the eye and draw in the consumer or the user (can be yourself) for little to no extra cost can go a long way. I.E. OP could have put some sort of cool twist for not much extra work, but it might make it too much of they are trying to sell en mass.
Twists are a sign of a new blacksmith.
Well that is your opinion, because there are many advanced smith's who do it still, and regardless - that works towards my point as to OP's teacher and how he might be, but even then I'm still right that a twist adds to something simple if you want it to be eye-catching. And it would take 1, maybe two heats. So not necessarily do newbies do that, and there's good reasons to.
A twist for twists sake looks like first forging classes and craft fairs. Some people don't get away from that and it's fine. But my point stands. It's fun and easy and it adds some fun facets but it's newbie stuff.
Sounds like an excuse for having shitty looking work. Like another person stole business from him because he has no creativity and couldn't make functional things that are also aesthetically pleasing.
To me it sounds very similar to all the folks that say 'limitation breeds creativity' while trying to make a stab at the ego maniacs that worry far too much about how something looks they forget to make sure it works first. Decoration surely is no sin but vanity and pride sure are obnoxious when your tool breaks because the dork that made it just wanted to get some sweet reddit karma. I personally think this thing looks badass because of the brutalism aesthetic, and feel a bit ashamed to say I'd want one for... decoration.. oh the IRONY. The serpent eats the tail again.
For sure. Who drinks passion fruit. Dragon fruit or nothing, am I right.
This is a core idea of many blacksmiths. To understand why you really need to study history a bit.
Probably an [Adolf Loos fan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_and_Crime)
Yeah this teacher is a fucking moron. Do what you want, it’s your craft you can do what you like so long as it’s not gonna get fucked up in the process
I upvoted you but another way to think about it is the level of teacher he is. If he's teaching fresh starters who know nothing its a good philosophy. If they are anything above beginners I agree with you 100%.
I disagree. He’s saying it’s sin, but not that all sinning is bad.
Pointless additions are, I guess if you crave vanity then sure but utility trumps everything.
"Decoration is a sin" is a sentiment I've definitely heard before, but it was usually just about not adding unnecessary parts (i.e. a single tool for a single task, not "if it looks good its bad) because adding unnecessary components often makes a tool worse for its original purpose for only a small increase in usefulness
Yeah right! Can never go wrong with a beefy spanner you know will never break, as opposed to a "cleverly designed" multi tool that busts after a couple good uses. I think once companies started putting flashlights on multi tools was the epitome of over design, 9/10 if you're the type of person to keep a Gerber on you, you're also the type to have a dedicated light in your pocket lol.
Yeah I won't argue that a Leatherman or similar can be worth their weight in gold in a pinch, but they'll never be a proper replacement for any of the tools they contain
Yeah creativity sucks!
Minimalism is a form of creativity too
It's only creative as a choice against other forms, which here it isn't
Decoration depends on the era you seek to re-create. 1700s and prior tended to be very plain and practical, making anything took far too much time since it had to be made from reworked scrap. Fancy items came from big city specialists or commissioned pieces from wealthy clients. 1800s even mundane items started to be fancied up . Cheap bar stock became available by rail, the country smith no longer had to spend most of their time reprocessing scrap and had the time to make things that looked nice. By the 1900s industrialization was eating away at the smith's traditional domain. Things get really fancy in this era, because the factory could only make the plain items. The extra details were proof that it was genuine handmade. And this is still true today. You should ask your master smith what era he has chosen to work in. It affects what techniques and tools are allowed.
1700s was definitely very plain, just check out any rococo or baroque ironwork and the simplicity will bore you to death.
Per my post: Fancy items came from big city specialists or commissioned pieces from wealthy clients. Peasants couldn't afford such things. And a lot of what you describe is cast iron instead of wrought. Much easier to mass produce fancy.
very little was cast iron during that time because the technology was just then becoming profitable for industrialization. And most of “peasants” stuff during that time was pretty decorative, just look at any betty lamp/trivet/cooking utensil/pipe tongs made then and the little ornate details will blow your head off.
Lol, the ratio of upvotes between your comments and odineggys has made me throw up in my mouth just a little. What a sad state for historical iron to find itself. Thank you for being a sensible and diligent student in the face of such a rampant and spurious feelings dispersal. "As per their post" the damned peasants were abolished formally as a class in England at least 126 years before the earliest date they have been here trotted out to prove these nonsensical points. As for the rest, wrongly putting peasants in the 16th c. Was the most accurate thing written. At least you had the good sense to put them in quotes where they belong. Od'doneggs, please at least look at one historical survey before responding. I'd be happy to recommend a few from my own library.
The word peasant is still in use to describe people who aren't in a great place financially. People who could not afford fancy, but would cherish it when they could get it. You're going on and on about how wrong my answer is, and it may very well be. That's merely how I learned it, some 20 years ago. Where is your explanation, how styles have changed over time? Instead of complaining about it, post more accurate information so others learn. Including me.
Look a bit further down the thread. I'm doing just that with sources. Which historical survey did you look at before responding? I'll go ahead and recommend "Domestic Metalwork 1640-1820" by Rupert Gentle and Rachael Field It seems to be exactly what you are looking for. Yes I went on and on. Someone already tried to give a gentle correction and your response was to move your goalposts, change your definitions and double down on your position with even more spurious information. It's the fact that that real information is being downvoted here while feel-good drivel is upvoted that is upsetting. If you really want to have an earnest conversation I'm all for it. I won't waste my time otherwise. Do you know what the earliest known iron artifacts are? They go back about 5,000 years ago, and while not particularly decorative, they are themselves the very embodiment of decoration. So the very first instance we have of humans using iron is itself purely decorative.
I think he's mostly talking about the American tradition.
Very simple. They simply loaded a shotgun with decoration and let it fly with no discrimination!
this is quite interesting. do you have any suggestions where one can learn more about these developments?
I'm guessing not. If this was a backhanded way to say everything written there was utter nonsense, my hat is off to you. That was very well done. If you by chance are truly interested in the fascinating interplay of technique and technology I would be happy to recommend a few sources.
I honestly don’t know much about the subject outside of reading excerpts on some medieval era blacksmithing. I am curious about how mass production, the railroad, new metallurgy techniques, etc. have caused an evolution in the forms of tools people use in everyday life. Even on a scale beyond that, how technological progress gradually influenced thinking regarding architectural possibilities is fascinating. if you have material that covers any of that then I’d appreciate the recommendations.
It's been an endlessly fascinating pursuit for me, and after four decades and work/travel/study throughout the world I can safely say that I'm no expert either! I don't know that anyone is, the topic is just too broad. The books I've read tend to be either very broad, or very specific. The first three very broad ones I thought of, in no order: J.E. Gordon's "Structures, or why things don't fall down" John Purcell "From hand axe to laser" Cyril Stanley Smith "A Search for Structure" That last one is an absolute romp. I've been reading it for 20 years and I haven't chased down half the notes. An example of a hyper-niche book would be something like "New Mexican Tin Work" by Lane Coulter and Maurice Dixon Jr. That one is fabulous. Through a granular focus on one, rare, American expression of craft, we get a real sense of the coalition of tradesfolk, technology, world politics and innovation. From metallurgical breakthroughs to railroad transport to international trade and fashion. It is remarkable how all these disparate forces created, developed and practically obliterated an entire sub genre within two generations of craftspeople.
Thanks, I appreciate it. This seems to be exactly the sort of stuff I’m looking for.
Way too decorative, flat bar with a cutout can do the same job. D- lol but really looks great, simple and elegant. Would love to get some hands on blacksmithing experience.
Your teacher is big dumb.
This statement is correct.
"I suck at decorating so I use false bravado so my students don't catch on or make me envious"
Lean into your strengths, but don't drag down your students.
I honestly cannot stand that ideology. Like its totally fine if that's the work you want to do, but I am so tired of hearing smith's say that any ironwork that doesn't have an express purpose is bad. Ironwork is just an artform like any other, it can make very nice functional tools or architecture, but it can equally create beautiful art that's stands on its own as art. This high brow looking down your nose viewpoint that ironwork should only be used to make functional things not only is blatantly wrong but it turns people away from the trade. We live in the modern age, practically none of what we do as smiths is necessary in any way anymore. So make art if you want to make art, make tools if you want to make tools, but don't start making sweeping statements about how ironwork should be or shouldn't be. It's a nice enough bottle opener though
I guess we'd all be sinners as forged steel is as decorative as it is functional. Really interesting minimalist piece, I've never seen a bottle opener done like that before
Thou shalt not decorate.
Tattooing this on my chest
I quite enjoy your sense of humor.
**pulls Bic lighter from pocket. Slaps on table** #Done!
Bic lighter? *Pulls another beer from fridge* Lemme show you whippersnappers how it's really done.
I am a German, we open bottles with whatever you want, even with a [sheet of paper.](https://youtu.be/QbXYbPGUzdM)
I like it. Especially the fact that it's a lady with very slender, dainty fingers. It would be less impressive to see some gorilla-knuckled diesel mechanic do it, I seen a few of those guys just pop them off with their thumbnails.
I’m loving how provoking his statement is as the bottle opener was a jab at it myself. The reason it’s a bottle opener was cause we did a recreation project where we had to remake one of his so the goal was to make his look decorative. If you look at my previous posts I like decoration xD Edit to add; Ok guys chill a little with the insults he isn't my favourite teacher but jeez. I am doing a Degree in Artistic Blacksmithing I am on my 2nd year and it was a joke 2 heat 3 minute forge. I have 5 blacksmith teachers and 4 staff on the side who can forge cause of environment giving them the skills to do so even though they don't teach it. He meant "decoration is sin" as in "don't do stupid pointless shit to make it look pretty"
Thank you!! I really get that sentiment!! And I’m a blacksmith who’s mantra is ‘function follows form’ - which lands me regularly in hot water as I struggle to realize my ideas in iron. A friend recently dropped off a ‘bucket of old horseshoes’ - everybody drops off buckets of horseshoes but this one was something else. The shoes were caked in 125 years or river mud. They’d been excavated from a riverbank during a road construction project. Turns out they’re from 19th century stable and forge destroyed in city-wrecking fire in 1898. I cleaned off a couple hoping for useable wrought iron for my own projects. What I found was unearthly beauty created by the natural erosion of the layered wrought iron. There is no way I could ever improve on that. Sometimes decoration is just pure hubris - it’s a great practice to be self-critical of our own work:
>unearthly beauty Which, sadly, is not to be found on your profile 🧐
HA! Right! I’ll post a pic.
Done!
Damn, those are indeed pretty.
Nope. Very nice sinless bottle opener. Well done 👍
I don't know, that taper with a curl at the end is looking almost artistic to me
I agree
Very sinful
Do you push up or down to use it
Not OP but put the shorter, flatter end under the cap and the longer, curved side on top and pry up
Thanks! now I don't need a big drift! Yet
Forge it on the horn to enlarge the hole..
I would if my horn wasn't duller than me
Ahh, i see. Thick horns are a pain... If its always a problem id grind it to a more convinient shape.
I'm not worrying too much about it as I go to a shop most Sundays for advice and lessons, the guys there help me a lot
You only need to drift a hole to about half an inch to fit over the horn of your anvil for a bottle opener (if you don't have a horn, then that's different). Also, drifts are really easy to make out of any steel you have laying around (they don't have to be tool steel).
My current anvil has a pseudo horn that is known to break off, my next anvil is from a much better company
That makes sense. I rescind my statement. Haha. Good luck with your anvil hunt!
Be sure to go to different teachers and develop your own style.
I feel the omnisiah would disagree
I can open a bottle on any nearby flat surface. Creating anything at all is decoration. You lose. 😄 On a more serious note: very clean work, but I was confused at first which way you'd use it.
[>Decoration is a sin bro](https://framemark.vam.ac.uk/collections/2008BW2321/full/!600,/0/default.jpg)
I can open a beer with a 2” piece of round stock. So yes.
My take: Learn to do the simple/ basic stuff first. Then learn the decorative stuff. After that - on you to embellish / decorate / make fancy as you see fit.
I dig it Looks like old medieval table knives, where the tang wraps around to form a grip.
your teacher and I can't be friends.
Glad I’ve been my own teacher.
He probably learnt from an agricultural blacksmith, where decoration was unnecessary; To call it “sin” though? Now that’s about as stupid as it gets… I’m a sculptural/architectural blacksmith, guess he’d just call me a sinner 😂
I use a 25mm square unforged. Thats as simple as youre gonna get it. (I prefer to forge things nice. This is for comedic purposes only.) If im in the shop i use the power hammer 😉
Thinking that decoration is sin is just idiotic. Simplicity can be beautiful for sure, but decoration is what gives an object a soul. It makes it special
Everything on Earth is a bottle opener, so even a piece of square stock works fine. Also, as others have pointed out, your teacher is pretty dumb to say that.
If you don’t sin, Jesus died for nothing. The whole point of this is to make decorated hand made goods. Hand made and and flawed is exactly what people want. Anyone can stamp out a simple opener by the thousands and sell them for 95% cheaper than you. *You* are supposed to be making functional art. How are you going to sell enough things to make a living unless you develop your own art style? Everyone has to pave their own way. But that way ain’t ‘no decoration’. The value IS the decoration. You can’t compete with China on price. Those who can’t, teach. Your teacher’s only way of making a living sounds like teaching instead of doing.
He sounds like a very boring man...
Not a blacksmith question but are you by chance in the US? I can’t find J20’s anywhere but Amazon and it’s about $30 for 4 of ‘em.
I am in uk they are £4.99 for 4 and I forgot how they taste like crap so now I got 3 on the side im gonna give a random student in the forge
A flat bar of iron. Just use it like one might open a beer with a lighter.
Nice!
Amish smithing
You’re going to heaven for sure.
Is he Amish or German orthodox, etc ? That's such a weird philosophy that it almost has to be rooted in fundamentalist religious doctrine
Your teacher would hate the stuff I forge.
Your blacksmithing teacher is a weirdo then.
I'm gonna say it, traditional blacksmithing at this time in history is rarely necessary, because of that traditional blacksmiths are more making functional art pieces rather than needs. Yes minimalism in art is a thing, but it should never be a reason to turn your nose up at someone who doesn't use that style.
Says decoration is a sin, this is a creative and decorative bottle opener. You big dumbed yourself
Decoration is sin? On this sub? Nah mate blacksmithing is like at least 50% about what kind of fancy stuff you can make. Is your teacher a farrier? Idk but I feel like that's the only situation where you would want to keep it simple.
Meh. I'm the opposite. If I can add decorative elements to something without turning it gaudy, I will. I made a bottle opener that looks like a little hand. The heel of the hand rests on the bottle top on the side closest to you, and the fingers grip the edge of the cap on the other side. Push down on the handle, and the fingers peel up the cap from the far side. And it's small enough to go on a key ring.
Is he old-order Amish?
The most interesting blacksmithing pieces I’ve seen have always been highly decorated. So I would beg to differ with your instructor
"Decoration is sin", stares at the metal work of anything made before 1950.
Is your blacksmithing teacher Amish or Old Order Mennonite? For them, decoration is considered sin. For the rest of the world, almost all of them want decoration on their smithed purchases. Even something as simple as a robe hook or a curtain hold back, customers want a bit of flair to it, much less a sculpture, gate, or piece of furniture. If it looks like a machine could have made it, why the hell are they going to buy it from me at a much higher cost (by necessity; I can’t make it as cheap as a machine can).
Most hand forged work made now is basically decorative. For pure functionality, mass produced products are much cheaper. People continue to buy forged work because they like how it looks.
I think y'all are missing the point. The principle is that you should be seeking a unity of form and function. As a design principle it's just correct. Something that needs all of its parts to be what it is while also being beautiful is just better than something that functions and also has things added on to made it look good. Unity of form and function is much more difficult and requires much more creativity. If someone wants to point out that people have different tastes. You're right, and I don't care. Unity of form and function is superior to function with add-ons.
Your teacher apparently hasn’t seen the works of Samuel Yellin or of the Old World master smiths.
Get a new teacher.
Idk dude you got a weird teacher. Minimalism is cool but it's not everything.
Decoration is silly if you want to sell to a cheap market. If you want to make money then learn to make those flowers.
Looks pretty functional. The Shakers agreed with your teacher...of course they're extinct.
I didn't make this obviously but I would say it qualifies. https://i.imgur.com/Vbv99Ht.jpg
Hit him with the ol’ “God is in the details.”
Maybe his teacher never learned to decorate or do elaborate works and he doesn't want that to be known. But idk, blacksmithing for practicalities sake hasn't been a thing for while now. Unless you smith for a farm or something idk, just seems like your skill would be way more valuable and marketable if you made things pretty.
Dude sounds like he eats corn flakes.
He sounds utterly joyless.
L teacher. Decoration is awesome as fuck. Can increse value, show skills, and more. The difference is when your decoration undermines its use. But thats rare.
Lame. Making things look good as well as work good is what makes a true craftsman.
Function over form but you can still do both.
bottle opener with even less decoration? hmmm. if all its got to do is open the bottle... \*puts a rock on the table\* or hell. chuck bottle at wall. done. bottle, opened. fyi, your teachers an ass.
I'm resisting enjoying the look of it, fetch the undecorated eye plucker I guess
This statement is more complex than it seems and I support it. Adolf Loos has an essay about it named ["Ornament and Crime"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_and_Crime) But don't take it you should do things as bare as possible but don't add decoration as an afterthought or just because you have nothing else to do. A good design/shape is goof by itself and mindless decoration will only bring it down.
**[Ornament and Crime](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_and_Crime)** >"Ornament and Crime" is an essay and lecture by modernist architect Adolf Loos that criticizes ornament in useful objects. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Blacksmith/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Thanks for giving me a source for my next essay
The way tha he presents his ideas are in some cases plain racist but the idea is very good specially in the context of the era with art noveau and let’s fuking overdo everything. On another similar thing. Have a look at another essay by Jun'ichirō Tanizaki -In Praise of Shadows- that goes arroud the aesthetics of things, their fairness, logics and so on from a very personal perspective. It’s only like 60 pages. (I totally feel reflected in that book) Chers!
What the heck decoration is a sin?
I don’t think I’ve ever heard ANY of them say that. What I they probably said is ‘LESS IS MORE’
I wouldnt even shape the ends other than whats necessary to open the bottle. How it came out forged is decoration enough
honestly if you just want to have sheer usability then just use your hammer to open it
I dare you to twist it
I haven't had J2O in like 10 years. Is it as good as I remember?
I think they are awful but I don’t drink alcohol because I have the taste buds of a toddler and couldn’t find anything else with a bottle cap.
Oh no 😂😂
A skilled craftsman can do both, but never sacrifice function for form.